gouernment in Church causes as the Queenes Maiestie taketh vpon hir of dutie to belong to ciuill magistrates he concludeth ther vpoÌ„ by these two parts of the request so satisfied that they may and ought to take the same vpon them Which done he promiseth to enter into the other twaine to proue the same by the continuall practise of like gouernment in some one part of Christendome and by the generall Councels To this answereth M St. Hitherto ye haue not brought any one thing to the substaÌ„tial proufe of your purpose worth a good straw neither Scripture nor Doctor nor Emperour This is a short aunswere indéede as if Iacke Strawe had made it and not a student of diuinitie All is not worthe a strawe with you Such was the iudgement of Esops dunghill Cocke when he found the precious stone Haue ye done nothing master Stapleton but scraped strawes though you estéeme better of your owne doings wherevpon as it were an other Chaunticlere ye crâ—…we and crake so often yet set not so little by the doings of other men and thâ—…se that are farre your betters But what are the Bishops proues the lesse worth for this your strawish iudgement Your bolt M. St. is soone shotte but a raylers tongue is they say no slaunder Let others iudge that haue more iudgement what the Bishops proues amount vnto And let them iudge euen by this your Counterblast that ye haue blowne out agaynst these proues to ouerturne them Which had they bene as light as a strawe ye might haue easily done and neuer haue puffed vp such a stormie Counterblast But let them iudge what your Counterblast hath done and whether ye haue blown away so much as one straw bredth from the matter one proufe of al the Bishops proufes But least I should also be like to you I remit the iudgement of the whole to other yea in Gods name to any of your owne side that with any indifferencie will examine both Ye quarell further at the least to blemish the Bishop with suspition of heresie saying Among your foure Emperors by you named ye haue iugled in one that was a starke Heretike but as subtilly as yee thought ye had handled the matter ye haue not so crastily conueyde your galles but that you are espied Ye haue told vs of this often inough master Stapleton if that would helpe you though ye tolde it not so Iuglerlike as now although with as much bitternesse of gall as euer y Iugler or sorcerer SimoÌ„ Magus had With Heretike starke Heretike wretched Heretike c. But ye neuer tell how the Bishop cited him For were he Heretike or were he not as it is a question by Saint Augustines definition of an Heretike yet in that point that the Bishop cited him ye can proue him no Heretike But whatsoeuer he were the B. is clearely discharged to your owne shame and to all your doctors of Louaine where ye learne your good diuinitie And this is al that ye haue to say to the Bishops proues hitherto Now to that he promiseth to enter into the residue there is yet one thing that after all your raylings ye coÌ„mend him for Yet for one thing say you are ye here to be commended that now you woulde seeme to frame vs a certaine fixed state of the matter to be debated vpoÌ„ and to the which you would seeme to direct your proufes that ye will bring And therein you deale with vs better than hitherto ye haue done seeming to seke by dark generalities as it were corners to lusk lurk in Neither yet here walk ye so plainly and truly as you would seeme but in great darknesse with a sconce of dimme light that the readers should not haue the clere view sight of the right way ye should walk in whoÌ„ with this your darke sconce ye lead far awry For thus you frame vs the state of the questioÌ„ These are but wordes M. Stap. to spend time and fil paper Ye know best your owne practises Ye tell vs before hand the Bishop will do so Tell vs so when ye come to it It séemeth he mindeth it not euen by your owne confession prefixing a state of the matter to be debated vpoÌ„ to direct his proues vnto This is not the way of one that would luâ—…ke or lurke with darke sconces in corners nor the B hitherto hath gone thus to work it is one of your ordinarie slaunders his proues are euident name one that is not directed to the issue set betwene him M. Feck that fully proueth it not but that sconce of your own hath left no corner vnsought to â—…usk and lurke in and to lead the Reader about the bush as besides this your common place of impertinent matters will for the most part declare The. 27. Diuision THe B. hauing proued his issue by the two forsaid parts the scriptures the Doctors being entred into the other twaine the Councels the practise since the issue requireth the proofe of Any such gouernement as the Q maiestie now taketh vpon hir the B. first expresseth hir Maiesties gouernment theron according to the issue maketh his generall state to leuell his proues vnto the B. words are these The gouernement that the Q. Maiestie most iustly taketh vpon hir in ecclesiasticall causes is the guiding caring prouiding ordering and ayding the ecclesiasticall state within hir dominions to the furtherance maintenance and setting foorth of true religion vnitie and quietnesse of Christes Church ouerseeing visiting refourming restrayning amending and correcting all maner persons with all maner errors superstitions heresies schismes abuses offences contemptes and enormities in or about Christes religion whatsoeuer This same authoritie rule and gouernement was practised in the catholyke Church by the most Christian kings and Emperours approued confirmed commended by the best Councels both generall and Nationall The effect of M. Stapletons aunswere to this is all against the state of the question that the Bishop here setteth downe and is diuided chiefly into thrée pointes In the first he chalengeth the bishop to alter the state of the question in hande and setteth himselfe downe another state to the which he woulde haue the Bishop direct his prooues Secondly he trauayleth to show that the Bishop concealed two clauses of the statute that should chiefly haue expressed the state and what inconuenience may insue thereby Thirdly he alleageth the excuses of the Papists for refusing the othe In his first part being deducted into these two members to quarell at the Bishops state and to set vp his own for the former thus sayth M. Stapleton Here is a state framed of you M. Horne but fane square from the question in hande For the question is not nowe betwene M. Feckenham and you whether the Prince may visit reforme and correct all maner of persons for all maner of heresies and schismes and offences in Christian religion which perchance in some sense might somwhat be borne withall
if ye meane by this visitation the outward execution of the Church lawes and decrees confirmed by the ciuill magistrate roborated with hisedicts and executed with his sword For in such sort many Emperors Princes haue fortified streÌ„gthned the decrees of Bishops made in Councels both general National as we shall in the processe see And this in christian Princes is not denied but coÌ„mended What the state of the question in hande is the reader hath often hearde How be it such is your importunitie that ye will neuer leaue your olde warbling But for the full satisfying of the Reader berein let him once againe resort to the issue that M. Feck requireth of the bishop to direct all hys foure meanes vnto wherin he would be satisfied And that is conteyned in these flat wordes VVhen your L. shall be able by any of these foure meanes to make proofe vnto me that any Emperour or Empresse King or Queene may claime or take vpon them any such gouernment in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes I shall herein yeelde c. This then is the state of the question betwéen theÌ„ whether any Prince may take vpon him any such gouernment in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes as the Queenes Maiestie doth Now wheresoeuer the B. proueth anything by the foure fore said meanes that any Prince hath taken vpon him any such gouernement as doth the Queenes Maiestie in causes ecclesiasticall there the bishop kéepeth himselfe to the state of the question in hande and satisfieth M. Fecknams issue What the bishop hath done in the two foresaide meanes is euident by that that is past let others iudge thereon Here the B. entring into the other two meanes prefixeth this issue againe before him to leuell his proues by The issue is now that by any of these two meanes remayning he shall proue that anye Prince may claime or take vpon him any such gouernment as the Queenes Maiestie in Ecclesiasticall matters doth And where the B. by any of these two meanes shall proue that any Princes haue taken â—…pon them any such gouernment in ecclesiasticall matters as the Q. Maiestie doth there the B. digresseth nothing from his question also satisfieth M. Feck â–ª demaunde This then being the state of the question betwéene them the proofe of any such gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes the B. first setteth here down the particulars that plainly declare what gouernment this is that the Q. Maiestie taketh on hir wherto he must direct his proues So that now that question in hande is this What is that gouernment in what particulars consisteth it that the Q. maiestie taketh on hir Which when here the B. doth specifie in the last Chapter M. Stapl. himselfe commended the bishop for his orderly going to worke therein and now crieth out here is a state framed farre square from the question in had whether it be so or no whether it be not plain dealing of the B. and plain warbling of M. St. let any man be indifferent iudge betwéene them But M. Stapl. sayth the question is not nowe betweene M. Feck and you whether the Prince may visite reforme and correct all maner of persons for all maner of schismes heresies and offences in Christian religion True in déede M. St. the question is not nowe whether the Prince may doe these things that you rehearse or no but the question that is nowe in hand being deducted out of the words of the issue any such gouernment demaundeth first what kinde of gouernment that is that the Q. maiestie doth claime and take vpon hir to the which question the B. aunswereth the gouernment that hir highnesse taketh on hir is such and such c. And so the state of the question is knowne what kinde of gouernment the B. must proue And looke where he proueth any such gouernment there M. Feckenhams request is aunswered And if he can not prooue any such then M. Feckenham may complaine that he is not satisfied And as he is bounde to performe his promise of thankfull yéelding so haue you no cause to warble at this the B. diligent enumeration of those particularities of the principal question least both ye should wander in an obscure generalitie also coÌ„trarie your late vaunt that ye go to worke plainly truly and particularly But sée your falshoode how chaunce ye set not downe the Bishops wordes as he spake them but abridge them 〈◊〉 of thrée parts of them and more crying Here is a state framed farre square from the question in hande Here is a false subtiltie of you M. St. farre square from any truth in hand or out of hande The Bishops wordes are these The gouernment that the Q. Maiestie moste iustly taketh vpon hir in eccles causes is the guiding caring prouiding ordering directing and ayding the ecclesiasticall state within hir dominions to the furtherance maintenance and setting forth of true religion vnitie and quietnesse of Christes Church ouerseeing visiting refourming restrayning amending and correcting all maner persons with all maner errours superstitions heresies schismes abuses offences contemptes and enormities in or about Christes religion whatsoeuer In place of all these wordes euery one béeing materiall to shewe the particular things wherein hir gouernment consisteth that she claymeth you onely for all these set downe these wordes The Prince may visite reforme and correcte all maner of persons for all maner of heresies schisines and offences in Christian religion As though the Bishops particular words specifying the poynts of hir gouernmeÌ„t conteined no more but this Neuerthelesse had the bishop specified no more but these words that ye thus contracte yet had he not swarued from the issue betweene them Any suche gouernment nor from the directâ—… answering to the question declaring any suche gouernment chiefly the chiefe poynts therof that the Quéenes maiestie claymeth and you refuse to yéelde vnto hir For euen these particularities that you set out ye will not graunte without an exception and that is in effecte vtterly to denie them althoughe in daliaunce of spéeche saying in some sense ye would onely séeme to mollifie them For what else meane these your words VVhich perchaunce in some sense might somewhat be borne withall if ye meane by this visitation and reformation the outwarde execution of the Churche lawes and decrees confirmed by the ciuill magistrate roborated with his edicts and executed with his sworde for in suche sorte many Emperours and Princes haue fortified and strengthened the decrees of Byshops made in Councels bothe generall and nationall as we shall in the processe see And this in Christian Princes is not denied but commended Christian Princes haue héere gotten afaire catche by this your graunt and commendation to become your seruants your souldiours your slaughtermen only executing with their swords that you with your authoritie decrée and appoint vnto them Now forsooth a fayre supreme authoritiâ—… But let vs sée how this doth hang togither Ye graunt theÌ„ to visite reforme
¶ The Supremacie of Christian Princes ouer all persons throughout their dominions in all causes so wel Ecclesiastical as temporall both against the Counterblast of Thomas Stapleton replying on the Reuerend father in Christe Robert Bishop of VVinchester and also Against Nicolas Sanders his Uisible Monarchie of the Romaine Church touching this controuersie of the Princes Supremacie Ansvvered by Iohn Bridges The Princes charge in his institution to ouersee the direction of Gods lawe DEVTER 17. After he shall be settled in the throne of his kingdom he shal write out for himself in a volume the copie of this Law taking the same of the Priests of the Leuitical tribe and he shal haue it with him reade it al the days of his life that he may learn to fear the Lord his God and keepe the wordes and ceremonies of him which are written in this law c. ¶ PRINTED AT LONDON by Henrie Bynneman for Humfrey Toye 1573. · HONI · SOIT · QVI · MAL · Y · PENSE · E. R ¶ To the moste high and moste excellent Princesse Elizabeth by the grace of God Queene of Englande France and Ireland defender of the Faith of Christ and in earth next vnder God of the Church of England and Ireland in all Ecclesiastical and temporall causes the supreme Head Gouernor ALbeit most Gracious Soueraigne I might be vvoorthily noted of presumption in dedicating these my trauailes to your Maiestie as vvel for the basenesse of my skill calling as for the vnreuerent demeanour of the aduersaries that here I ansvvere vnvvorthie vvhom your Highnesse should deigne to loke vpon yet bothe bicause the matter entreateth moste of a Princes estate and that vpon the chiefest point therof belonging in general to al Christian Princes but in especiall to your Maiestie against vvhom they chiefly direct their malice and in maintenaunce vvhereof your Maiestie direct your gouernement and herein haue giuen a mirror to al christian Princes to folovv and be partakers in their common vveales of the lyke blessings wherwith God hath beautified your Highnesse and established youre authoritie I thought it therfore not vnfit setting my self and them aside with all such by matters as incidently fal out in disputation betvvixt the Bishop and master Feckenham of me these my aduersaries â–ª to conâ—…ecrate this argumente of Supremacie to youre moste excellent Maiestie as to vvhom chiefly in your dominions next vnder Christ it dothe pertaine VVhich your Highnesse so nobly maintaines by practise of godlie gouernment hovve euer we by the vvord and argument do defend it There is no controuersie at this day betvvixt vs and the enimies of the gospel more impughed thaÌ„ this one of the Supremacie nor more bookes compiled more libels scattered more vaunts made of truth on their partie more sclaunders deuised of oure doctrine and your Maiesties Title more secrete conspiracies and open treasons against your Royal person and state of the Realme than our aduersaries make only for this Supremacie Shall Sathan then vse al this double diligence in promoting the pride tyrannie of his Antichrist the man of sinne the foreigne vsurper of all Christian kingdoms and shall the children of god be negligent in defence of the kingdom of Christ of the Lordes anoynted of the dutifull office and lavvfull authoritie of their naturall Soueraigne â–ª Other meanes I graunt may be had to suppresse their furious dealing And God bee blessed therefore that hath furnished your Maiestie vvith povver couÌ„sell authoritie lavv vvisedome learning vertue courage and al other Princely habilities â–ª suffiâ—…iet to maintein your Highnesse Title protect that portion of Christes Church vvhich he hath committed to your most Gracious gouernment in peace and truth prosperously 〈◊〉 your enemies VVherein as your Maiestie hath euer most zâ—…lously sought and set forth the glorie of god â—…e hath so glorified you again as he hath promised 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 glorificabo that your highnesse may say as king Dauid sayd â–ª he hath deliuered you out of your enimies hands and defeated all their purposes he hath established you a kingdom here on earth in peace and righteousnesse and hath prepared in heauen a Kingdom for you in glorie and eternitie Novv although this be so cleeâ—…e that euen the enimies themselues coÌ„fesse God vvorks vvith you God fights for you God hath takeÌ„ your hart into his handes that haue taken his quarel into yours yet sith the 〈◊〉 do mutteâ—… sclander your Highnesse to take suche kind of GouernmeÌ„t on you as vvere not coÌ„petent as the Pope had vvont to do your Highnes is furthest from if this your claime be not proued to be grouÌ„dedon Gods vvord if those enuious be not coÌ„â—…inced by euident argumeÌ„ts of the seripture al the foresaid prosperitie is couÌ„ted but earthly blessings and such as other vvorldly Princes haue All the due authoritie is 〈◊〉 but extorted violence neither is the mouth of the adoersarie stopped neyther is the mind of the subiect satisfied And therfore vvhen al is don â–ª there is no better meanâ—… to may 〈◊〉 this Title than euen by learning 〈◊〉 for to me it to the vttermost and to fight vvitâ—… the vveapon of Gods vvord for it vvhicheâ—…s sharpeâ—… to vvoâ—…nde the aduersaries heart and conscience than any tvvo edged svvord But some vvil say this is sufficiently done by otherâ—… learned labours vvhen both in the dayes of your Maiesties Father of most renoumed memorie euen the best learned of our aduersaries did not only confesse it but vvrote so effectually in defence therof that shamefully aftervvard reuolting their guiltie conscieÌ„cebore vvitnesse against themselues nor they coulde euer ansvvere their ovvne vvritings And also after that in the godlie gouernment of youre Highnesse blessed Brother many other more excellent fathers in vvriting did confirme it And novv lastly in this your Maiesties happie Reigne diuers famous and lerned men to the further confirming of the godlie and confounding the enimie therein haue vvritten vppon this argument Yet sith oure aduersaries haue neuer doone thervvith but sette on a freshe lyke to him that vvhen in vvrastling he was euer cast of pride and vainglorie vvoulde neuer acknovvledge that he had any fall I thought good to make euident to all your Maiesties subiects euen to the enimies themselues the places vvhere they shamefully fel and lie stil in their errour rather than to vvrastle vvith such vvarblers And yet if they start vp again to trie a further pluck vvith them and by the strength of Gods inuincible truth so to ouerthrovv them that as fast as they boast cauill and sclaunder the truth of our cause and the goodnesse of your Maiesties quarell shall shevve it selfe the cleerer although the simplier handled A number of other vvhom I knovve coulde haue done it farre better vvho may also at their discretions further trauaile in it And in deede vvhere the most of this vvas done a good vvhile sith it vvas layde aside thus long expecting if any other vvould attempte it
the spirituall Kingdome fol. 29. b. 30. a. The seruice of the Prince is common as wel to the heathen as Christian gouernment 29. b. Christian Princes are faythfull aduocates in ayding and assisting the spirituall power 30. a. which the heathen are not fol. 30. b. He flatly confesseth that M. Feck helped to spoyle Queene Marie of a principall part of hir royall power right and dignitie in spoyling hir of this supremacie thought sayth he he so did but not as an vnfaythfull subiect But so to spoyle hiâ—… â–ª and not therein to be an vnfaythfull subiect are flatte contradictorie Againe he sayth he did it as a repentant Catholike but to spoyle any bodie of their right and to do it repentantly are also flat contradictorie ibid. Againe he sayth afterward it was no part at all of hiâ—… royall power but to confesse first that he spoyled hir of a principall part of hir royall power and after to say it was no part of hir royall power are likewise contradictorie As also to say he spoyled hir and yet it was no part belonging to that of which he spoyled 〈◊〉 What are all these but an heape of wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contradictions And all this he vttereth within lesse than fortie wordes togither Fol. 40. b TheÌ„ Bishop 〈◊〉 that the Prince shall haue by him the lawe of God 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…ly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that the 〈◊〉 sâ—…yth not so â–ª 〈◊〉 yet within fire lynes before he confesseth that â—…he 〈◊〉 â—…yeth so and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of infidelitie for leauing out woordes that wente immediately before the Texte that the Bishop alleaged And so while hee stryueth to chalenge the Bishop he cleareth the Bishop and ouerth 〈◊〉 himselfe Againe in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 On the one side of the leafe he graunteth freely that by the. 13. of Deuterenomie Princes may punishe teachers of false and superstitious religion and Idolatrie On 〈◊〉 â—…ther 〈◊〉 of the leafe he eateth his free graunt 〈◊〉 and sayth that in all 〈◊〉 chapter or in all that booke â–ª there is no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…ounde cares not what Where the Bishop allengeth the 〈◊〉 of â—…osue M. St. 〈◊〉 the ensample bicause sayth he Iosue did sacrifice 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 himselfe 46. b. that Princes cannot now do And yet after fol. 49. speaking of Iosue he confesseth that he did them not him selfe but by appoynting them to bee done by the priestes ministerie He chalengeth the Bishop for not prouing his matters by any testimonies of the newe Testament after he hath handled the olde And by and by he confesseth that he alleageth two testimonies of the newe Testament to proue his matters by 59. a. He confesseth that master Feckenham refused of settâ—… purpose like â—… wise man the testimonies of the olde Testament And yet all his long treatise of eight leanes togither in the â–ª â—…6 Chapter is chiefly to this purpose to proue that he refuseth them not 62. a. He confesseth that he omitted them bicause they made agaynst him and yet he sayth he includeth them and affirmeth them as all making with him ibid. Fol. 65. a. b. He graunteth by Saint Augustines wordes that Princes may make lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes Religion And in the next side he denieth Saint Augustines wordes to enforce any thing else but lawes to punishe Heretikes which is no Ecclesiasticall matter at all Fol. 66. a. He sayth we denie that Princes may punish Heretikes by death And 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â–ª he sayth we hold with Caluin that sayth Princes may â–ª pot â–ª Heretikes vnto death When the Bishop presseth him with the ensamples of Moses 〈◊〉 Dauid 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 denieth as doth master Dorman that the ensamples of the old are figures of the new Testament and yet in the â–ª 17. Chapter he graunteth that all the examples 〈◊〉 â–ª 〈◊〉 that the 〈◊〉 of the olde Testament herein be figures of the newe fol. 68. â—… He confesseth there is some regiment that Princes may take vpon them in causes ecclesiasticall And in the next side he 〈◊〉 the Princes regiment to â—…e but an ouer â—…r in ciuill matters But forthwith againe contrarie to this he graunteth the Prince may haue the procurations and executions of Church matters fol. 68. â—… And thus in Docke out Nettie he so graunteth and denieth that there is no holde of his worde 68. a. b. He graunteth Christ destroyed not the rule of Princes in Church causes figured in the olde lawe and that Christs sentence giue to Caesar that that is Caesars confirmeth the figure of Princes rule in Church causes in the olde lawe And yet streightway he sayth it maketh nothing for it 69. a. He sayth this sentence giue vnto Cesar that belongeth vnto Cesar destroyeth not the figure where the subiects in the olde lawe were bounde to giue all duties to their Princes that belonged vnto them And yet anon after by this sentence sayth he men be not bounde to pay any thing yea not so much as tribute to their Princes 70. a. And so this sentence confirmeth not but loâ—…eth and destroyeth the figure by the which subiects were bounde before to their Princes He sayth that this sentence of Christ determineth something And by and by he sayth it determineth nothing Againe he sayth it determineth paying tribute onely And yet he sayd before it determined not that neither He sayde also before that this sentence onely licensed that we might pay tribute if we woulde but we ought not And yet after he sayth Christ willed that to be giuen to Caesar that is his which is â—…oth a determination and commaundement also 70. a. He sayth the Bishops admonition hereon is without anie cause or grounde And anon he sayth it serueth him and his brethren for many and necessarie purposes fol. 70. a. He graunteth that Princes haue authoritie both to further the obseruation and to punishe the breach aswell in the first table as in the seconde that is aswell in such actions as concerne our dutie to God him selfe as in the dutie of one man to another 71. b. But in the next side he flatly denieth this againe saying these are the workes of the first table the punishing correcting or iudging of these appertaine nothing to the authoritie of the Prince or to anye hys lawes 72. a. He sayth we make the Princes supreme gouernours without any limitation And yet withall he alleageth Master Nowell to say it is not without limitation but that Godly ministers may iudge of the synceritie of doctrine according to Gods worde fol. 73. a. As also he shewed in the diuision before howe the Bishop limitted the Princes gouernment by the boundes of the worde of God. He sayeth that Saint Paule 1. Tim. 2. speaketh there of no authoritie at all in Princes Where the wordes are euident for all those that bee put in authoritie And yet himselfe by and by sayth hee speaketh of theyr gouernment And anon after will ye knowe sayth he whie the Apostles both Saint
chiefly directed to dissuade hir subiects myndes to whome in hucker mucker ye sende these bookes ouer from the acknowledging of the sayde hiâ—… Maiesties supreme authoritie maye it not truly be sayde men maye iustly gather this as youre chiefe ende Is not euery wriâ—…ers chiefe ende to persuade his reader in his principall matter is not this here youre principall matter to improue the taking vpon hir of this authoritie If ye haue any chiefer ende or more principall purpose that is better than this cléere your self and shew it Uerâ—…ly our chiefest end in writing hereof is to persuade hir subiectes that by your deceiuings stand in any mammering to a godly liking of the sayd title as most dâ—…e and lawfull to hir highnesse estate And if yours be not the contrarie hereto let your doings be according and we shal like it the better But see here M. Stapleton how soone ye folter in your numbers and misse in your tale at the fyrste beginning of all ye haue scored vs vp in your marginall score two vntruthes when ye come to counting them twaine afterward in your answere ye recken vs vp thrée saying of the second in your score This is an vntrue and false surmise of Maister Horne as are the other two here also reckning vp that that ye counted for the first And thus wée knowe not whether we haue euen or odde 2. or 3. Wherby all your reckening is marde and false counted Is this your daunce M. Stap. in beginning to trip the round when one lye tumbles out so proprely in the necke of an other But hoysta God blesse them they fallout faire Howbeit as they say it is a good horse that neuer stumbled thoughe it be an euill signe to stumble yea to fall downe right at the first setting out I make proofe by the continuall practise of the Church in like gouernment as the Queenes Maiestie taketh vpon hir The thirde vntruth you neuer proue the like gouernment namely in all Ecclesiasticall thinges and causes The truthe or vntruthe of this being referred to the triall in the sayde practise will soone pull backe this thirde dauncer from hopping in your rounde And as for your self ye are a false piper M. Stapleton thus soone vnto your liâ—… to pipe a wrong rounde harping on an other issue than was required of the B. to proue Wherin as your greate falshood â—…hal appeare so your selfe do here halfe graunt this to be no vntruth daring not flatly say the Bishop neuer pro ued the like gouernment which the Bishop only here affirmeth but you denie it in a respect namely say you in al ecclesiasticall things and causes â–ª which the Bishop here affirmeth not nor it is his propre issue in question demaunded of Master Feck and yet he proueth euen that also I haue put into englishe the authors myndes and sentences The fourth vntruth for he wrongfully alleageth both the wordes and meanings of his authours He bringeth no instance at al wherby to proue this that he sayth which til he can do it must go for a lie of his owne making wherby he measureth other mens translations by his owne corrupting his authors wordes sentences mindes and all as is alreadie declared This title is so replenished with vntrue reportes The fyfth vntruth in wrongfully charging M Feckenham for the title of his treatise Whether Master FeckeÌ„hams treatise had a true title or no lette others déeme Maister Feckenham made a treatise entituled by the name of An ansvvere to the Queenes Maiesties Commissioners and the same by writing be deliuered to the Bishop of Winchester and afterwarde sent abroade the sayd Treatise entituled by name The declaration of suche scruples c. as Maister Iohn Feckenham by vvryting did deliuer vnto the Lorde Bishop c. when he neuer deliuered any suche entituled treaâ—…ise vnto him Is this then vntruly or wrongfully donâ—… to charge him of the title of his treatise His sixth and seuenth vntruth trifling denials You. c. not without the helpe of the reste as may be gathered deuised wrote and purposed to deliuer this booke to the Commissioners The eyght vntruth slaunderous Neither doth the Bishop flatly affirme it but only sayth as may be gathered whervpon M. Stapl. can not iustly gather a flat asseueration one way or other â–ª to conclude his vntruth Neither doth M St. improue it any way thoughe â—…e himselfe and that verie often without any coniecturing of the matter and yet can he gather no iust coniecture therof doth boldly charge the Bishop with the helpe of other Which so often as he doth he shoulde remember that this vntruth returneth on himselfe In al which points ye were so answered that ye had nothing to obiecte but seemed resolued and in a manerfully satisfyed The. 9. vntruth M. Feck was neuer so answered And in his couÌ„terblast he saith had not the B. put in these wordes In a maner otherwise it had passed al goodmaner honestie too so vntruly to make report the contrary being so wel known that he neuer yelded vnto you in any one poynt of religion neither in Courte nor yet in mannour nor else where Ye are a mannerly man I perceyue mayster Stapleton and as full of good manners or honestie it appeareth as an egge is full of oatemeale Belike ye haue bene brought vp neyther at courte nor mannour but at Hogges norton as they saye for otherwise what good manner or honestie is this to chalenge youre better of so heynous vntruth and proue nothyng at all agaynste hym but saye the contrarie is well knowne when your selfe knowe it not at al but speake without the booke For shame M. Stapl. learne better maners to referre it to them that were present at the hearing of both parties and then shal ye hazard your honestie and truth a great deale the lesse and shewe your nourture to be the more Wherevpon I made afterwarde relation of good meaning towardes you to certayn honourable persones of the good hope I had conceyued c. The. 10. vntruth incredible VVhat good meaning coulde he haue to him when he would haue him reuolt from the religion by him receiued and professed at Baptisme to reuolt from the faith of Christes catholike churche c. Why Master Stapleton is this incredible that the Bishop hoping of his conformitie in making relation thereof to the honourable might not haue therin a good meaning yea admitte the truth whiche he professeth were as false as you woulde haue it séeme to bée mighte he not for all that haue a good meaning Saule had a good meaning ye wot when he did full ill And how say ye to your Scholemen that speake so muche good of a good meaning yea euen in ill causes But as the Bishop meant wel to him so the cause was good also and your cause naught how well so euer ye meane in an
and with diffinct letter which he doth not here but Paraphrastically expoundeth the texte Wherein if he doe wreste the meaning of saint Paule ye shoulde hardly note that for an vntruthe â–ª S. Paule there nameth not religion that is true but that this worde godlynesse which saint Paule nameth comprehendeth not religion as the Byshop saythe that is your owne vntruthe But this matter is debated more at large in the answere to your Counterblast chap. 18. diuis â–ª 22. where is shewed bothe by the Fathers and by your owne chiefe writers that sainte Paule by this word godlynesse meant true religion Here ye set another blasing starre vpon these words that the Byshop sayth This woulde be noted with good aduisement that Sainte Paule himselfe sheweth playnely prosperitie amongste Gods people and true religion to be the benefites and fruites in generall that by Gods ordinance springeth from the rule and gouernement of Kings and Magistrats vnto the weale of the people This would be noted say you howe ye racke saint Paule he nameth not religion at all he dothe not attribute religion to the rule and gouernment of the ciuill Magistrat but peace and tranquillitie only in godlynesse Ye durst not note this for an vntruth M. Stapleton but for a racking or wresting althoughe this is but your peeuish difference If he racke saint Paules meaning he telleth an vntruth of saint Paule although this dothe cleare the B. of racking also that ye durste not playnely note and score it vp for an vntruth yet as the B. saying is most true so it nothing swarueth from the meaning of sainte Paule For aâ—… the B. proueth by Chrysostome that by this worde godlynesse is meant religion and the inwarde peace of the mynde and conscience and not only the outward peace of the body So Saint Paule maketh these to bee the benefites fruites and endes that by Gods ordinaunce wee receyue from the rule and gouernement of kings and magistrates in whiche saying S. Paule is not racked but it is you M. Stapleton that racke Saint Paule â–ª for he sayth not tranquillitie and peace only in godlinesse yâ—… may put your only in your pursse Saint Paule sayth in godlinesse and purenesse The whiche knot and fastening togither of religion and prosperitie incoÌ„mon weales the most Christian and godly Emperours Theodosius Ualentinianus did wisely foresee The. 68. vntruthe They sawe no suche confounding of the two functions spirituall and temporall as you imagine This vntruth is directed against the Byshops imagination ye go verie neare the B. M. Stapleton that where hée sayth no suche wordes as you chalenge ye will créepe into his heart and fetche iâ—… from thence ye haue a goodeye sighte that can see what the B. imagineth But wisdome wil think this to bée a fonde toy of your own idle imagination for the Byshops words import no such confusion as ye talke of hée telleth howe godlynesse and prosperiâ—…e are lincked togither in common weales so that the one cannot be well without the other that the Prince is the knitting togither of both these and this he saythe the Emperours sawe and that they sawâ—… it he bringeth good proufe theire own manifest words set downe at large eyther proue this an vntruth M. Sta. or else the B. hath made nene it is but your vntrue sclaunder fonde imagination I haue proued c. That such like gouernment in Churche causes as the Queenes Maiestie taketh vpon hir dothe of duetie belong vnto ciuill magistrates The. 69. vntruth Such like gouernement you haue not nor euer shall be able to proue The B. saith that in this first booke he hath hitherto proued it by the scriptures the Doctours and some Emperoures This you denie that he hath done and set him a long day to proue it Nowe the truth or vntruth of this the reader must hang in suspence til be haue read the prâ—…s ouer what they bee and then in the name of God lette himiudge whether the vntruthe lyghte on the Byshoppe or on Master Stapleton In the meane season â—…ytherto the Reader maye haue a taste what shame is in this impudent mannes â—…ace what truthe in his cause and what folly in hâ—…s heade thus to the wide worlde to score and sette out suche thinges for vntruthes as beeing neuer so little rypped vp are moste apparante truthes and to make suche a tryumphante gambolde and pyping vp of a round as hee doth thereon But leâ—…te hym daunce his â—…yll and nicke vp still on the score in the ende hée will runne so farre in the lashe that no man will credite a worde of his mouthe MeÌ„daci non crâ—…ditur ne iurato quidem A lyer is not beleeued no thoughe he svveare ⧠To Master Stapletons first Preface OR euer Master Stap â–ª enter into his counterblast he prefixeth two Prefaces the first to the B. the second to the Reader The first bicause it is only a packet trussed vp of all such accusations as he layeth to the Bishops charge through out his whole counterblast and so is to be aunswered in their proper places I minde not therefore to follow Master Stapletons vaine that saith Decies repeâ—…ta placebunt to spende the time and trouble the Reader more than néedes in answering to them here that are to be answered in their places seuerally and are already many of them noted before in his Common places The effect and conclusion of this preface in the ende is this That the Bishop must néedes make a full reioynder A full reioynder I say saith he and perfect to all and euery parte of this reply and put in Master Stapletonâ—… whole answere not omitting any one line or sentence either of the text or of the margine or els the truth is not on the Bishops side or els he waÌ„teth learnyng or els he buildeth on no good fundation nor the cause he groundeth on is sure or els all men vvill laugh him to scorne for his faire piece of vvorke so shamefully broken of or els M. Feckenhams scruples are most learned and inuincible reasons or els the othe can not be takeÌ„ with out manifest periurie or els Master Horne must retract his most haighnouse heresies or els which I should haue set before all that the B. hath saide is but vvoordes of course to saue his poore honestie and but waltham talke or els as he obiecteth foolishnesse to the B. so M. Stapleton may proue as wise as walthams calfe and thus as he saith to the B. for this time I take my leaue of you Vale resipisce so may I for this your first Preface take my leaue of you Master Stapleton Uale sape ⧠To Master Stapletons seconde Preface THe seconde Preface is directed to the Reader and is coÌ„triued in thrée partes The first sheweth the reasons why he tooke vppon him to answere the Bishop The second how by what order he procéedeth in his answere The thirde is an earnest admonition
turne ye are to gredie man remember that qui cupit totum perdit totum But let vs sée your sixe demaundes whether they be reasonable and to be graunted yea or no. There are therefore say you many thinges to be considered first that Christ lefte one to rule his vvhole Churche in his steade from time to time vnto the ende of the vvorlde Is this your first request to be considered and graunted M. Stapleton now surely a reasonable demaund to be considered vpon And woorthie to haue that Salomon graunted to Adonias for asking of Abisaâ—…g to wife Wise king Salomon saw he might aswell haue asked the crowne from his head yea his head from his shoulders and who so vnwise that seeth not ye might aswell aske the whole controuersie to be graunted you and graunt ye this what néede ye propounde your other principles following How be it let vs sée what they be also Secondly we muste consider ye say that this one vvas S. Peter the Apostle and novv are the Bishops of Rome his successours Out of doubt ye had on some great considering câ—…ppe M. Stapleton when you considered that the Bishop should haue considered this He was much to blame he considered it not but M. Stapl. and ye were as wise as God might haue made you ye would haue better coÌ„sidered with your selfe than to thinke others haue so litle consideration as to graunt ye this your false and foolishe principle Thirdly say you that albeit the Bishop of Rome had no such vniuersall gouernment ouer the vvhole yet that he is and euer vvas the Patriarche of Englande and of the vvhole VVest Church and so hath as much to do here as any other Patriarche in his Patriarchshippe It is a signe M. Stap â–ª ye shrewdly doubte the former twains woulde neuer be graunted that so soone would be content to become a Patriarche of a piece from a Pope of the whole which though it sheweth lesse haughtinesse in you that would play small game rather than sit out yet perchance your Pope is of Alexanders spirite to whome Darius hauing offred halfe his dominions if I were Alexander ê™ Parmenio I would take it so would I ê™ Alexander if I were Parmenio And so perchance your Pope will say to you if I were Master Stapleton I would be content at least to be a Patriarche and perchance a worse rowme woulde serue But beyng the Bishop of Rome he will say Aut Papa aut nihil And therefore least ye get his curse before ye aske our consent the surest way were to know how he will like of this your limitation and when he shal be content then propose it to vs to consider thereon But I see ye like not greatly to stande hereon for fourthly say you Then all vvere it that he had nothing to intermedle vvith vs nor as Pope nor as Patriarche yet can not this supremacie of a ciuill Prince be iustified VVhereof he is not capable especially a vvoman but it must remayne in some spirituall man. Your must is very mustie M. Stapl. and smelleth of the pumpe of Romes ship Your Sequence is as badde the B. of Rome neyther as Pope nor as Patriarche is supreme gouernour in Ecclesiasticall causes in England Ergo No ciuill Prince man or woman is capable of it Againe There must be one spirituall man that must haue an vniuersall gouernment ouer the whole Churche Ergo â–ª A ciuill Prince may haue no particuler gouernement in his particuler Churche The antecedents in déede are true of bothe For neither hath the Pope as Pope or Patriarche or any otherwise any supreme gouernement ouer Englande as you presuppose he had none and yet the Prince both may haue and hath some supreme gouernement ouer vs For in déede all supreme gouernement suche as the Pope vsurped she neither hath nor may haue nor requireth nor belongs to any creature but is due to Christ alone He is that spirituall man that your other antecedent speaketh of if ye meane him it is true if you meane any other it is but your false presupposall though the consequentes whereon we stande followeth neither way neither doe ye laboure once to proue them But is here all things we muste consider no say you for fiftly Besides this the Catholikes say that as there vvas neuer any such president heretofore in the catholike Church so at this present there is no suche excepte in Englande neither among the Lutherans the Suinglians the Suenkfeldians or Anabaptists or any other secte that at this day raygneth or rageth in the vvorlde None of these I say agnyse their ciuill Prince as supreme gouernour in al causes spirituall and temporall Let goe these raging termes of sectes M. Sta. to their common places and I pray ye tell vs once agayne who sayth thus Who euen the Catholikes say so But whome meane you by the Catholiks The Papists Then gentle M. Stap. haue me commended to those your Papisticall Catholikes that ye say say so and aske them agayne if all be Gospell that they do say or no. Tushe man will M Stap. replie will ye not beléeue the Catholikes Why then sixtly and Laste of all I saye and M. Feck vvill also say that euen M. Horne him selfe in this his aunsvvere retreateth so farre back from his assertion of supreme gouernement in all causes spirituall and temporall vvhiche is the state and keye of the vvhole question that he plucketh from the Prince the chiefe and principall matters and causes ecclesiasticall as vve shall hereafter playnely shevve by his ovvne vvordes This geare goeth harde indéede The B. is nowe driuen to asore straight But syr might a man be so bolde to aske your mastership what are you and M. Feck are ye not Catholikes that when ye haue saide the catholikes say so ye come rushing in say Last of all I say and M. Feck vvill also say you make vs doubte least ye be no Catholikes and withall to suspect when ye cal your selfe and your client M. Feck to witnesse some partialitie in your sayings least the sole will holde with the shoe and that as two false witnesses came in agaynst our sauiour Christ with I say so and he vvill say so also so woulde you compact togither to slander the B. herein with I say so and M. Feck vvil say so also But by both your leaues may I be so bolde as to set your I say so and his I say so also asyde and desire ye to proue your so saying Why say you doubt ye of that we shall here after plainly shevve it by hys owne vvordes These are but vvords M. Stap. and ioly promises if ye can shevve it so playnly why shevve ye it not playnly here where ye say it so playnly or else haue shevved at the least where the B. doth thus which till ye shall playnely shewe this your â–ª bolde and playne saying may be suspected for a playne lye But M. Stap. shaking of the further
And herein hath the Quéenes highnes followed as ye say both her Fathers and Brothers faith also But ye wring al to that faith wherein he was before beguiled as though she should follow him in that he was deceiued not wherein he founde out forsoke the deceyuers that you with your painted wordes might likewise deceyue her Highnes now as they deceâ—…ued her Maiest father then But sée how God turned their deceyt agaynst them selues That where your Pope to flatter K. Henrie withall ascribed to him this title as it were the prophecie of another Caiphas Defender of the faith the King espying the falshood of the Pope became the very defender of the true faith in déede abolishing the Pope the very impugner peruerâ—…er therof and so as you say truer than ye wist M. Stap. atchieued to him and his and transported as by hereditarie succession the worthy title and stile yet remaining in her Highnesse of the defendour of the faith Neither as you faintly say this title onely remayneth in her Highnes but the thing that the title doth entende her highnesse is in very déede not in a â—…aked name the defender thereof And hath defended her subiects not from foreyne power of straungers onely brought in by the Papistes and from all bodily iniurie and oppression of Popish firebrandes or any other tirannie but defendeth euen our faith from all errours heresies superstitions and Idolatries And this it is for a Prince to be a defender of the faith in déede which argueth a plaine supremacie Now after M. Stapl. hath thus flattred and on his knees humbled him selfe to obtayne a placard of their disobedience vp he starteth once againe and geueth another fling at vs to reuerse this crime of disobedience on vs thinking so to excuse this disobedience of the Papistes thereby And first he setteth on those whome he calleth round cap Ministers howbeit if he remembred that within this hundreth yeres and vpward the popish priestes themselues did weare round cappes he would not be so hastie to giue that nick name He asketh who are those that haue preached with a chaine of golde about their neckes in steade of a tippet Assoyle your question your selfe M. Stapl. I know no such protestant What slaunderous reporte you haue heard of any singuler person I know not no such order is alowed Although it be common among your popish Cardinals Bishops Abbottes Deanes Canons and other beyonde the Seas so to ruffle as ye speake not onely with a chayne of golde but with hatte and feather cappe and agglets rapier and cloke hawke and houndes ruffians fooles wayting on them and oftentimes in complete harneys on a great courser or on a palfrey with a courtisane behinde them thus go the chiefest of your fleshly spiritualtie belike they learned it of that royster Pope Iohn 13. howbeit no Pope doeth amende this disorder Upbrayd not therefore such petit and perticular things to vs which is so great and so common a fault with you But Master Stapleton will go more certainely to worke and charge the Protestantes ex scripto wyth their owne writings VVho are those I pray you sayth he that write sint sanè ipsi Magictratuâ—… membra paries ciues ecclesiâ—…dei imo vt ex toto corde sint omnes precari decet Flagrent quoque ipsi zelo pietatis sed non sint capita Ecclesiâ—… quia ipsis non competit iste 〈◊〉 Let the Magistrates also be members and partes and citizens of the Church of God yea and that they maye bee so it behoueth vs all wyth all our heart to praye Let them bee feruent in the godly zeale of Religion but they may not be heades of the Churche in no case for thys supremacie doth not appertaine to them These are no Papists I trow M. Horne but your owne dere brethren of Magdeburge in their new storie ecclesiasticall by the which they would haue all the worlde directed Yea in that storie wherof one percell Illiricus and his fellowes haue dedicated to the Queenes maiestie that beare the worlde in hande they are the true and zelous schollers of Luther Thus triumpheth M. Stapleton against the wryters of the storie of Magdeburge The effect of his argument is this These wryters do say that Princes may not be heades of the Church Ergâ—… no prince ouer all Ecclesiasticall persons causes in his owne dominions may be supreme gouernour Howe euill this argument followeth is easie to perceyue and the better in behâ—…lding howe impudently master Stapleton wresteth these wryters But he forceth not thereof bicause they be his aduersaries For that which they write not simplie agaynst the supremacie of princes in Ecclesiasticall causes but agaynst suche supremacie of princes as the Pope vsurped that wresteth he as spoken agaynst such supreme gouernment as the Quéenes maiestie claymeth and vseth The writers hereof hauing set forth two â—…nsamples of that age the one of a godly princes gouernmet by Constantinus Pogonotus the other of a wicked tyrant by â—…eraclius to declare what kinde of supremacie they disalow Thâ—…y she we that this is the scope of the matter iste est scopuâ—…res ê™ magistratibuâ—… politicis non sit licitum cudere formaâ—… religionuÌ„ in perniciem veritatis ita vel coÌ„cilietur veritaâ—… meÌ„daâ—…ium vel vtraque simul sopiant id quod tandem â—…um habet exitum vt regnent errores veritas crucifigatur sepeliatur This is the â—…cope of the matter that it is not lawfull for politike magistrates to coyne formes of religion to the destruction of the truth so that thereby truth and falsehoode should be reconciled togither or both of them togither quayled VVhich at the length commeth to this ende that errors raigne the truth is crucified buried And so followeth the sentence that M. St. citeth let the magistrates also be mebers c. but let them not be heades of the Church Whereby appeareth plainly what maner of heades they meane And this they do not once nor twise setting forth the doings of the wicked â—…yrant Heraclius for ensample that was altogither led by affection and not indifferent to heare â—…ither party nor called in counsell lerned and faithfull men nor called any synode to trie the matter nor serched the truth diligently but being puffed vppe with pride and deuising oâ—…ely with a flattring Monke that after set vp the false fayth of Mahomet determineth in a corner of a moste weightie controuersie and afterwardes will haue the matter neuer called into question This Emperour they call Architectum religionis and demaund what man well in his wittes woulde alowe such attempts processe and executions concluding it is not lawfull form as religionum conflare c. To make newe formes of religions and obtrude them to the Church without all kind of godly honest modest and comely gainsaying refuting therof All this and much more say they of that kinde of supreme gouernement in
now Luther can take no place amongst vs he obiecteth another vnto vs one Andreas Modrenius And yet his saying also maketh God wote ful little for the Papists herein Who saith there ought to be some one to be taken for the chiefe and supreme head in the whole Church in all causes ecclesiasticall What conclude ye M. St. herevpon Ergo it must be your Pope or no christian prince And here as though all these were not yet sufficient testimonies ye bring in Caluin But since ye doe it but to fill vp your booke with that common allegation of your side which being also not omitted of M. FeckeÌ„ham is to be referred to be propounded and answered vnto in his proper place I therefore remit you thither Onely to that ye say he so spitefully handled King Henrie the eyght as hee neuer handled the Pope more spitefully I aunswere this is but your spitefull lie to deface the Protestantes Else why doe ye not proue the same And as for your Pope it is euident also he neuer handled him spitefully but onely reproued his vyces and errours by the worde of god But howe spitefullie your Pope and popishe Prelates so farre as they coulde handeled him and howe spitefully they handle all Protestantes that they maye once sette their spitefull spirituall fingers vppon all the worlde doeth sée And yet the silie Protestantes muste beare all the blame it is not ynoughe for them to beare the iniuryes This lesson ye learned of the Diuell of Dowgate to bite and whine also or rather ye doe as Esops Woolfe did chalenge the poore Lambe for troubling his water and to misuse him spitefully but thys mercifull Woolfe deuoured this spitefull Lambe He vrgeth vs farther in great outcryes with a sentence of one Anthonie Gilbie our own Countriman The summe of his argument is this Anthonie Gilbie an Englishe man speaketh verie vnreuerently and vnreligiously of King Henrie the eight Ergo the Protestantes now in England whatsoeuer they pretende and dissemble in wordes in heart mislike the Quéenes maiesties gouernment How doth this follow M. St and yet ye wrest Anthonie Gilbies sentence also He speaketh not of this supremacie neyther but in plaine wordes of such a supremacie in England as the Pope chalengeth all ouer Christendome Though therefore he be greatly to be blamed for his vnreuerent speach and for his vnaduised mistaking of hys Princes lawfull authoritie yet is he not to be belyed as though he spoke of all kinde of supremacie in all princes simplie It is a shame as they say M. St. euen to belie the Diuell But sée how the matter falleth out Ye haue brought Anthonie Gilbyes sentence agaynst vs and the Quéenes maiesties authoritie Haue ye not wel holpeÌ„ your self if this sentence also make flat agaynst your pope For if as he sayth therin truely Christ ought onely to be the head of the church the placing of any other displaceth him then is not the pope the head also but the placing of him displaceth christ But the Pope chalengeth to be the heade of the Churche also which our prince doth not Ergo not our prince but your Pope displaceth christ And thus thinking to beate vs ye still make a rodde for your owne Popes tale And here sodenly calling to mind how far he hath straied in forraging out these sentences he returneth a little to the Bishop setting on him for calling the Pope the Papists god in earth the archeheretike of Rome and that M. Fec would haue him reigne in the Queenes place Besturring himselfe with a heape of arguments to defende his Pope Besides his scoffes raylings and other rhetoricall floures quoted in his common places But first for his Pope sayth he VVe make no God of the Pope and sometimes perhaps no good man neyther In déede M. Stap. ye should haue more than both your handes full to make your Pope sometimes a good man â–ª ye néede not put perhaps to the matter It would pose him selfe and all the Diuels in hell and that oftentymes to worke such a miracle on him as that man of sinne that childe of perdition and aduersarie of God to become a good man. But yet I say beware howe ye speake such buggishe words of him as not to be a good man. Whose wil is law whose law is all power in heauen in earth in hell Nowe can this be an ill man Beware least this come to his eares M. Stap. and withall that ye make him not a God in earth Are not you of theyr religion that beléeue and confesse this principle 〈◊〉 deus noster Papa Our Lorde God the Pope Yea and as some say he is Plusque deuâ—… If ye be beware his thunderbolt If ye be not whie defende ye him and his errors against the truth of God whie forsake you your most vertuous Prince to follow a straunger and that an yll man but you answere And yet we reuerence him for his office and authoritie that Christ so amply and honourably gaue him for preseruation of vnitie and quietnesse in his Church That ye reuerence him in déede and that is more adore him to is manifest But the patent of that his office and authoritie that ye crake Christe so amplie and so honorably gaue your Pope ye shewe none nor where nor how nor when he gaue it Only ye tell vs of the endes wherefore he gaue it For the preseruation of vnitie and quietnes in his Church But if these were the endes M. St. he hath forfeited his patent long ago That not onely disagreeth from the expresse wordes and commauÌ„dement of Christ but swerueth one Pope from another And how chance he setteth his own scholemeÌ„ his Canonists at no better vnitie his Thomists and his Scotistes his sects of Religions at no better quietnes than a tâ—…ade a snake togither how chance he agreeth no better with his Bishops his own colledge of cardinals How chance he falleth out so often with Emperours and kings setteth Princes their subiectes by the eares togither why fighteth he so fast with both his swordes like king Arthures dubble sworded knight why had he rather at this day that al christendome were in a broyle so much blâ—…ud were cruelly shedde than he would relent one inche of his honour one penie of his filthie gaine one iâ—…te of his errors Idolatries false dectrines that eueÌ„ are coÌ„fessed of his own secte giue place to the worde of God is this his preseruing of vnitie and quietnes in the Church of Christ or had he any such patent giuen him hath he not lost and lost it againe and will ye still reuerence and adore him for it Secondly where the Bishop calleth your Pope the arch-heretike of Rome Your wisedome say you with like truth also appeareth in that ye call the Pope the Archeheretike of Rome naming no man and so your wordes so liberally waÌ„tonly cast out do as well comprehende
infidelitie beeing expelled and the furie of discorde remooued I shoulde reuoke the people to the knoweledge of faythe and to the â—…eloweshippe of the Catholyke Churche who serued errour vnder the name of Religion Lo master Stapleton here ye sée farre other endes of the ciuile gouernment of Christian Princes than as you most falsely and iniuriouslye alleage to preserue them from all outwarde iniuryes oppressions and enemyes and further to preserue them for theyr safetie and quietnesse for theyr wealth abundaunce and prosperous maintenaunce and that it tendeth and reacheth no further And that thys is common as well to the heathenishe as the Christian gouernement Fye for shame master Stapleton that euer suche heathenishe woordes shoulde procéede out of your catholyke lips But ye are halfe ashamed I sée and woulde mollifie the matter so muche as ye can with a proper qualification that those thinges which these godly Princes did although they did them yet therein were they no more but Aduocates and so saye you All good Princes doe and haue done ayding and assisting the Churche decrees made for the repression of vice and errors for the maintenance of vertue true religion Not as supreme gouernors themselues in all causes spirituall and temporall but as faythfull Aduocates in ayding and assisting the spirituall power that it may the sooner and more effectually take place As ye bring this shifting distinction of Aduocate to late M. Stap. hauing before quite debarred the Princes Ciuill gouernement of goyng anye iote further than ye there did bounde it to meddle no further wyth ayding and assisting the spirituall power than a Saracene doeth ayde and assist it gyuing Princes no more leaue to be Aduocates thereof than ye make the Turke or Souldan saying this theyr so limitted gouernement is common as well to both Heathen as Christian euen so this your office of Aduocateshippe came to late into the Churche by manye yeares to debarre anye of these forenamed Princes in theyr owne supreme gouernement aboute 〈◊〉 matters to make it sownde as though they onely had béene the ayders assisters or Aduocates vnto others and not them selues the doers Whereas on the contrarie they were the verye doers thoughe not of those actions that appertâ—…yned to the Ministers offices yet of the gouerning and directing bothe the Ministers and their actions yea and the principall ouerséers and supreme rulers of them as euen their déedes and wordes before rehearsed plainly declare As for thys shyft of Aduocation was long sithence after theyr tymes deuysed Whiche office of Aduocateshippe séemeth to bée deâ—…yued from this fonde errour of the Papistes that the seculer power is immediately and primarelye as they terme it in the Pope but he hath not also immediatelye the exercise or execution of it but gyueth that to the Prince and so the Prince becommeth the Popes Aduocate or rather his executioner And thus was first say they Carolus Magnus Pope Adrians Aduocate executing the Byshoppe of Romes will agaynste Desiderius King of Lumbardie Wherevpon Charles was made Emperour by the Pope notwithstanding Michaell the Emperour was then lyuing at Constantinople Propter hoc dicunt sayeth Dante 's Aligherius quòd omnes qui fuerunt Romanorum imperatores post ipsum ipse Aduocatâ—… Ecclesiae sunt debent ab Ecclesia aduocari For thys thyng all that were Emperours of Rome after hym and hee hym selfe are Aduocates of the Churche and oughte of the Churche to be called vpon Lupolous de Babenberge also telleth that Pope Zacharie declarauit c. declared or pronounced that Childericus Pepins master shoulde be deposed and Pepine be made the King of Fraunce whome when Pope Steuen the seconde annoynted with his sonnes Carolus and Carolomanus French Kings Ipsos specialiter elegit sayth Lupoldus ad sedem Apostolicam defendendam Ex hac electione putoque reges imperatores Romanorum sint vsque in hodiernum diem ecclesia Romanae aduocati de qua Aduocatia loquuntur iura canonica He chose them especially to defende the Apostolicall Sea. Of this election I thinke it commeth that Kinges and Emperours of the Romaynes are euen to this daye the Aduocates of the Romayne Churche of whiche Aduocacie speake the Canonicall lawes Thus you sée the originall of your deuised Aduocateship commeth nothing neare the examples of the sayde godly Princes béeing themselues supreme gouernours in Ecclesiasticall matters before your Aduocateshippe was first hatched No reason therefore the Punie shoulde debarre the Seniour And yet it is but a sielie shift of your Canonistes descant rather detecting the vnlawfull encroching of the Pope than defeating anye parte of the Princes authoritie in this hys supreme gouernement As for those Princes Carolus Magnus his sonnes and other Emperours since theyr tymes were nothing suche Aduocates as your Pope and you woulde nowe pretende that is to say to be your onelye executioners But as these stories testifie euen these Aduocates also were the chiefe directours and supreme gouernours of all those things they did Yea the Pope hym selfe so well as anye other Byshoppe in theyr territoryes was subiecte to them They ayded and assisted the Byshoppe of Rome I graunt when he humblie aduocated then he called vppon them for ayde and assystance agaynst the wrongers of him But the Pope by commaundement called them not and they obeyed his calling and so became his aduocates which is cleane contrarie to an aduocates office And therefore once agayne your argument is nought They were aiders and aduocates Ergo not supreme gouernours But M. St. will further proue by his former ensamples why this supreme gouernement can not appertayne to the Prince For this supreme gouernement sayth he can he not haue vnlesse he were him selfe a spirituall man no more than can a man be master of a shippe that neuer was a mariner A maior that neuer was a citizen Hys principal gouernement resting in ciuill matters and in that respecte as I haue sayde he is supreme gouernour of all persons in his Realme but not of all their actions but in suche sense as I haue specified and least of all the actions of spirituall men especially of those which are most appropriate to them which can not be vnlesse he were him selfe a spirituall man. You frame your similitude very vnproportionably M. Stap â–ª from the master of a shippe or the maior of a citie to a Prince or supreme gouernour Either of these béeing particuler offices vnder a supreme gouernour that maketh lawes euen both for maiors in cities and masters of shippes also â–ª And albeit no argumeÌ„t builded on similitudes is firme to proue or improue any controuersie though rightly applied they may lighteÌ„ the matter to him that assenteth but not enforce it to him that denieth notwithstanding your similitudes as they proue nothing so they nothing lighten but more obscure the matter yet if these your similitudes were admitted froÌ„ maior and pilot to supreme gouernour what true conclusion can ye inferre vpon
in respect of some church cause and function which we freely graunt to M. Horne yet is he neuer a whit the nearer of his purpose vnlesse he can proue that there were also no other respect why he should be vnder the Prince but for causes Ecclesiasticall For as we haue saide he is a subiect also as other Laye men are and a member beside of the ciuill common wealth in consideration whereof the Prince hath to do with him and not properly as he is a spirituall man though both respects be concurrant in one person and he be named of the worthier As the Bishops argument is plaine and formall against M. Feckenham so here M. Stapleton stepping out to helpe him as it were clapping him on the backe recomforts him saying his graunt of the Minor That the Queenes highnesse is sâ—…preme gouernour of all persons in hir realmes so well Ecclesiasticall as temporall may be well graunted And he will also freely graunte to the Bishop the Maior A man is not called an Ecclesiasticall person but in respect of some church cause and function which is all one with the Bishops affirmatiue Euery ecclesiasticall person is called Ecclesiasticall onely in respect of Ecclesiasticall functions thinges or causes belonging to Ecclesiasticall persons what now can rightly follow hereof but the Bishops flatte conclusion that the Queenes highnesse is supreme gouernour of them in those their functions things and causes also Nay saith M. St. I will graunt him al this freely and yet is he neuer a whitte the neerer of his purpose vnlesse he can proue that there were also no other respect why he should be vnder his Prince but for causes ecclesiasticall for he is a subiect also as other lay men are Ha M. St. I sée you would faine slippe the coller deuising a new diuersitie of respects betwéene ecclesiasticall person and subiect when the question is and M. Feckenham hath confessed that he is a subiect euery way whether he be lay subiect or ecclesiasticall subiect â–ª Otherwise wheÌ„ M. Feckenham saide ouer all persons either ecclesiasticall or temporall of what estate so euer they be if he had ment as you say ouer ecclesiasticall persons in déede but not in that respect that they be ecclesiasticall but temporall and lay persons then had he plainly dalied in coloured speach foolish meaning as thus ouer al persons ecclesiasticall and temporall that is to say ouer all persons temporall and temporall â–ª if he meant ecclesiasticall persons not in that respect they be so called but in that respect they be temporall and lay as other subiectes be But this is your owne wilie deuice which in effect is nothing but wilie beguild him selfe M. Feckenham ment plaine therefore twice togither saith either ecclesiasticall on the one partie or temporall persons on the other partie and to make the matter plainer of what estate saith he that is to say of what condition kinde or degrée of subiects soeuer they be And did not your selfe say before and freely graunt it that an ecclesiasticall person hath not his name of ecclesiastical person for any other respect but for ecclesiasticall causes and functions why say you now contrary to your self he is named here ecclesiasticall person â–ª not in any respect of any ecclesiastical causes or functions but in respect he is a lay and temporal subiect how hangs this togither M. StapleteÌ„ will ye denie so soone that so late ye freely graunted then I perceyue as ye here say the Bishop doth I must be fayne also to spitte on my handes and take faster holde on yours and M. Feckenhams graunt M. Feckenham hath graunted and you also thus much that the Queenes Highnesse is supreme gouernour ouer all persons borne within hir realmes either ecclesiasticall or temporall of what estate soeuer they be That is to say they are all subiect to hir all persons gouerned or vnder hir supreme gouernment but the vsuall worde is subiect Subiect here is the Generall worde or Genus comprehending two members deuiding theÌ„ selues vnder it that is ecclesiasticall person and temporall person Either of these is comprehended a like in the generall woorde subiect for it is neither nearer the one nor the other nor may be more properly spoken of the one than of the other The temporall person is as much subiect and no more than the ecclesiasticall person the ecclesiasticall as much and no more than the temporall nor these two can be confounded togither nor the one taken for the other Membra diuidentia non confunduntur but as the one is temporall in respect onely of the temporall functions so the other as ye say well therein is ecclesiasticall only in respect of functions ecclesiasticall bothe are comprehended vnder their generall worde subiect thus doth M. Feckenham plainly set them foorth as it were in a table Now commeth our student M. St. seing all this so manifest plaine that him selfe is eueÌ„ forced to graunt it he hath studied out this shift first to iumble them altogither iugglerlike then deuides or rather breakes them making ecclesiasticall and subiect to be Membra diuidentia the one to ouerthwart the other which they do not but the one coÌ„prehendes the other And maketh this worde person to be general to them both which here is al one with subiect And thus when he hath plaied Cole vnder the candlestick chopping chauÌ„ging the words now saith he ye shall sée the Bishop is neuer the nearer of his purpose vnlesse he caÌ„ proue that there were also no other respect why he should be vnder the Prince but for causes Ecclesiasticall for as we haue said he is a subiect also As who should say in that respect he is a subiect he is not Ecclesiasticall in that respect he is ecclesiasticall he is no subiect bicause he supposeth these two are contrary respects ecclesiastical subiect But this he doth by presupposall that ye will graunt him al that he saith or els he would neuer so freely haue graunted the Bishop that which after made against him selfe For who seeth not that ecclesiasticall and subiect may well agrée togither which M. Feck saw well inough wheÌ„ he graunted as well the ecclesiasticall person as the temporall to be the princes subiect And againe who seeth not that this is but a fonde shifte of M. Stapl. to say that the Bishop is neuer the nerer of his purpose onlesse he can proue there were also no other respect why he would be vnder the prince but for causes ecclesiasticall For grauÌ„ting him againe there are other respects wherefore he is also vnder his prince What is M. St. the nerer of his purpose doth it follow bicause he is subiect also in other respects that therefore he is not subiect in this respect he should haue proued this but this he lettes alone and thinks all is safe if he be subiect in other respects But what other respects so euer there be him selfe hauing freely graunted â–ª that this
sticke at that ye will not sticke and make that false that ye graunt true or else ye proue master Feck not to be ignorant contrarie to his defence and all the rest of your owne défence of him as we shall sée your wordes afterwarde In the meane time let vs sée howe pretily ye shift off the matter onely bicause the Bishop names Tho. of Aquine a schole Papist for the diuision of Ignoraunce thinking ye haue gotten a wonderfull aduauntage thereby for the Popes supremacie But nowe sayth M. Stap. the verye authour brought forth by master Horne so fullie and effectually dischargeth M. Feck of all three and chargeth M. Horne with the worst of them three that is wilfulnesse and malice as he shal winne small worship by alleaging of S. Thomas For S. Tho. sayeth plainely that we are obliged and bounde vpon paine of euerlasting damnation to beleeue that the Pope is the onely supreme heade of the whole Church Nowe fearing as not without good cause that the B. would in this matter reiect the authoritie of this Thomas whom our Thomas calleth a late latine writer and to much affectionate to the Pope as it were by preuention He can not well reiect his authoritie sayeth he vsing it him selfe And why so Sir I pray you must euery one that citeth him in any one poynt receyue and admit his authoritie to in euerie poynt Is it lawfull for the Sorbonistes the Scholemen and the whole rabble of the Papistes yea for Thomas Stapleton him selfe to accept Thomas of Aquines authoritie in some poyntes and to reiect his authoritie in other some poyntes and is it not lawfull for the Bishop or anye other to vse the same libertie The Sorbonistes affirme of this Thomas Illa doctrina non potest esse in omnibus sic approbata c. That doctrine can not in all thinges be so approued that conteyneth many thinges erronious in fayth but as they say the foresayde doctrine of Saint Thomas not onelye in the matter of the absolute necessitie of a creature c. but also in manye other thinges conteyneth manye matters erronious in fayth And againe Non oportet credere c. VVee muste not beleeue that the doctrine it selfe is in no parte thereof erronious or hereticall wherein are conteyned manye contrarieties and repugnancies yea euen in the matter perteyning to the sayth â–ª but manye suche contrarieties and repugnancies are conteyned in the doctrine of Saynt Thomas Agayne 〈◊〉 dicunt aliqui c. And some saye for thys that manye maye denye the glosses of the decrees and Decreâ—… when the glosse doeth openlye denye the texte and lykewyse some saye of the ordinarye glosses of the Byble that notwithstanding seeme to bee of greater authoritie when they are alleaged for authoritie than is the Doctryne of Saint Thomas The sixte example maye bee giuen of certayne Doctours whiche are not canonized Saintes as the venerable Anselme Byshoppe of Cant. Hughe of Saint Victor and certayne other whose sayinges or wrytinges are in certayne poyntes founde erronious and yet theyr doctrine seemeth to bee no lesse authenticall than the doctrine of Saint Thomas sithe they are of the skilfull in their scolasticall actes alleaged for authoritie nor are wonted to bee denyed but their sayinges reuerently to be glosed and expounded whiche notwythstanding the Schoolemen are not woont to doe on the sayinges of Saint Thomas and therefore it seemeth presumptuous so to extoll hys Doctrine ouer them and other Doctours that wee maye not beleeue and affirme that hee erred in fayth euen as other also haue erred And after this as likewise before reckoning vp diuerse errours these spéeches are common Ista locutio est de virtute sermonis falsa multum impropria c. This speech in the force of the wordes is false and verie improper Ista doctrina multos errores continet c. This Doctrine conteyneth manie errours Uidetur multipliciter erroneum c. It seemeth diuerse wayes erroneous Deficit in multis c. If fayles in many poyntes Non est verum c. It is not true Et breuiter haec alia multa erronea falsa impropriè dicta videÌ„tur multis in praedicta doctrina contineri quae tamen ex taediâ—… pertransimus And briefly these and many other erronious false improper sayings seeme to many to be conteyned in the foresaide doctrine the which notwithstanding we ouerpasse for tediousnesse And from hence they discend to manifest errours in diuinitie And in conclusion write thus of him They say also that in verie many places of his doctrine he erred by reason of this that he applied to much the principles of philosophie or rather certaine wordes of Philosophers to the conclusions of Diuinitie Thus say the great Censors of the Popish doctrine agaynst Thomas of Aquine so well they agrée togither in vnitie of doctrine obiecting discorde vnto vs Yea the whole swarme of Papists not excepting our Thom. St. here him selfe vnlesse he be returned to the truth since he wrote his booke reiecteth and condemneth Thom â–ª of Aquines iudgement and authoritie in one of the most necessarie matters of Christian religion namely the doctrine of iustification For expounding this sentence of S. Paule Arbitramur hemâ—…neÌ„ iustificari absque operibus legis Arbitramur enim nos c. For we being taught of Christ thinke sayth Thomas according to the truth of the Apostle that euerie man whether he be Iewe or Gentile is iustified by faith Actes 15. By fayth purifying their hearts that without the workes of the law and that not onely without the ceremoniall works which did not giue grace but also without the works of the moral commandements according to that saying to Titus 3. Not of the works of the righteousnes that we haue wrought The reason is presumed that we are saued for our merits the which he excludeth when he sayth not of the works of the righteousnesse which we haue done But the true reason is the onely mercy of god There is not therefore in them the hope of iustification sed in sola fide but in fayth alone VVorkes are not the cause that any bodie is iust before God but they are rather executions and the manifestings of righteousnesse Where Tho. of Aquine thus according to Gods worde speaketh the truth as in this poynt here of iustification the Bishop and all other faythfull receyue his iudgement and admit the same with better reason than the Papists reiect it But where as in many other poyntes he swarueth from the truth though the Papists saint him neuer so much yet there all true saintes with good reason refuse him As in this that master Stapleton citeth out of him who confesseth him selfe that Thomas being a late latine writer wrote partiallye in this poynte bycause hée was to muche affectioned to the Pope and shall we beléeue such an affectionate wryter in hys partiall affection Or shall we beléeue master Stapleton no
immunities the priuileges of the heatheÌ„ priests they are so like vnto your popish priesthoode but I spare the reader Neuerthelesse what cause soeuer moueth you to write so fauorably for the Egiptian Priests none of these causes or any other maintenance of Idolaters moued Ioseph nor that any other suche lyke priesthoode to come shoulde take hereat any suche prerogatiue of béeing exempt from all fines to their princes The reason that moued Ioseph is apparant in the text He tooke the fift part of the peoples fruites bicause before they helde theÌ„ not of their king but the priests liuing was altogither of the kings gift finding And therfore they payed no portion to the king but the king allowed theÌ„ al the portioÌ„ they had But this that al that they had to liue vpoÌ„ was of the kings gift you quite forgat which argueth their subiectioÌ„ to him ye reasoÌ„ vpoÌ„ their priuiledge Where ye shâ—…ld note withal that al those other their priuiledges liuings came froÌ„ depeÌ„ded on the king And theÌ„ sée how fit a marke therby ye caÌ„ set vp against the Princes gouernmeÌ„t ouer priests Your Ninth and last marke is yet more fond and confused than all the rest besides wherin ye demaund of the Bishop saying Are ye able suppose ye to name any one king that wrote him selfe supreme head of the Iewishe Churche and that in all causes aswell spiritual as temporall and that caused an othe to the priestes and people the nobilitie onely exempted to be tendred that they in conscience did so beleeue and that in a woman prince to yea and that vnder payne of premunire and playne treason too Me thinkes ye play huddle now in the latter end M. St. sixe or seuen markes togither in one For the title of supreme head for receyuing the othe for the persons receyuing it the persons exempted the maner of receyuing it the Princes person and the penaltie of the refusall All these matters on a plumpe for haste come in one liuerie with the cognisance of your Ninth marke how neere the issue betwéene the Bishop and M. Feckenham I remit to the view of others To all these demaundes bicause ye are in hast and therfore thrust them out on an heape togither that the one might be a cloake to the other I will briefly answere them as they lye To your first demaunde for the Title thinke ye this a good argument No king of the Iewes wrote this title of supreme head or gouernour Ergo No king of the Iewes was so By the same argument no king of Englande before king Henrie wrote him selfe Defender of the faythe neither any king of the Iewes wrote that tytle Ergo None of them were defenders of the faythe And by the same argument your holy Father myghte léese a ioly Uicarige that he claymeth from Christ and Peter for neither of them wrote suche titles as he doth nor the highe Priest in the olde Testament wrote any suche stile as he dothe Ergo he claymeth his supremacie from them in vaine But this is a vaine argument if you can proue not the title so muche an the matter the thing and effecte of the title to come from them to him no man will stande with you in the stile but graunt your Pope his clayme This can you not do and therfore your Popeâ—…tytle is but vaine But this for the Princes supreme gouernment the Bishop hath named the Princes in the olde Testament and fully proued it that in matter thing and effect they tooke vppon them this supreme gouernance that the Quéenes Maiestie iustly claymeth now And this béeing proued as before till ye can improue this what babble ye of the title and yet since ye can bring no sufficient proofe of your Popes title neither why maketh this argument more agaynst the Prince than it doth agaynst the Pope Your second quarell is at the othe but the content therof as is proued béeing true why ought they not to sweare therto yea thoughe there were in the olde Testament no such ensample of an othe ministred by the Prince to hys subiects And yet we read how Iosias swore al his subiects to the lord But ye wil say this othe is not for the Prince to sweare them to Gods religion but to his estate If his estate be dutiful by gods religioÌ„ is he not therby also sworn thervnto And why then may not the Prince for his more assurance make an especiall othe thereof so well as a generall But was it lawfull for your Pope to sweare them to his vndue supremacie and is it not lawfull for the prince in a matter so due vnto him If you stil vrge a playne manyfest ensample to be shewed you where in expresse wordes suche an othe was then required I pray you and you will not deale partially M. Stap â–ª shewe you another example where the highe Priest of the Iewes required such an othe of the Clergie as your Pope dyd minister to those vnder him To that ye stande on the tendring the othe to the Priestes and the people and to aggrauate the matter as partiall say the Nobilitie be exempted partely is fonde and partely false For the Nobilitie or any other in certayne offices are not exempted But see the proude orgulous harte of this Priest howe he picketh quarels agaynst the Noibilitie bicause heerein they haue any prerogatiue ouer his priestly order But he maketh a matter in that the othe is that they in conscience did so beleeue as thoughe they coulde sweare therto and can not beleeue it in their consciences Belike master Stapleton your popishe Priestes make good otheâ—… and haue good consciences and beléefes that can sweare to a thing and haue no conscience or can haue conscience and not beléeue it so to be as ye sweare It is to be feared that some of your order haue so done Whether you haue done so or no I will not say for I knowe not your dealing nor am ouer curious to search out your olde reckonings But I thinke some of your good masters are not all in cleane life thereof Your outcrie at a womans Prince to haue thys Tytle yea and that say you in a woman Prince to sheweth your impudent spite agaynst your most gracious soueraigne and withall your impudent follie A woman Prince to say you If a Prince Master Stap. and why not a woman Prince to Will ye graunt hir to be a Prince and take from hir the duty that these ensamples shew doth belong vnto a prince Therefore eyther ye muste denie that a woman may be a prince or else graunt this authoritie yea to a woman prince to And doth not the Scripture commende yea a woman Prince to to suppresse Idolaters and tyraunts to gouerne and iudge Gods people And why may not now a woman Prince to deliuer vs as the Quéenes Maiestie hath done from the yoke of a greater tyrant and all his Idolaters to and
and profitable to the soule yet vvill he not that any should be constrayned Thus sayth Alfonsus of Aerius opinion for fasting and not as you say master Stapleton that he made no dyfference betvveene him that fasted and that fasted not Whereas Aerius made a great difference and Alfonsus cleareth him of that you accuse him But howsoeuer Alfonsus in the other poynt wherin you let him go frée accuseth Aerius by S. Augustines testimonie if he altogither contemned all maner of fasting ordeyned by the Churche then are we cleared from béeing charged with him for we refuse onely the superstitious necessitis of the Popishe Churches lawes As for the true Churche of Christe if vpon any occasion some lawes of fasting should be made by hir toll vs where we haue sayd we would contemne them Yea it is apparant we yéelde obediently to those lawes of fasting ordeyned by the Quéenes Maiestie and hir realme the Churche of Englande whiche be not superstitious fastes nor binding the minde of the faster with any necessitie of conscience but made for the necessitie and policie of the Realme and state of our countrey And if the whole Church of Christ ordeine like lawes for fasting we shewe hereby how little we would with Aerius despise the same but we with the word of God and with the true Church of Christ in the Apostles times in the Primatiue age and in the auncient fathers dayes reiect all suche superstitions in fastes as the Popishe lawes and customes â—…o burden the Churche withall And thus dothe euen S. Augustine that noteth Aerius writing to Casulanus agaynst one Urbicus in Rome who would haue it obserued for a lawe and made a foolish booke theron that men should fast on Saterday and other dayes saying that Peter did so whom he calleth as the papistes do the head of the Apostles the porter of heauen and the foundation of the Church when he conuicted Simon Magus S Augustine improueth this tale by Peters concorde with all his fellow Disciples that vsed no suche faste And after long prouing and improuing he concludeth thus Si autem quontam huic quantum potus c. But bicause I thinke I haue answered this as sufficiently as I could if ye aske my sentence hereon I reuoluing it in my minde do see that in the Euangelicall and Apostolicall writings and in the whole instrument that is called the new Testament fasting is coÌ„maunded But on what dayes we shoulde not fast and on what dayes we should fast I finde it not defined by the commaundement of the Lorde or of the Apostles And by this I deeme that fasting agreeth fitter not in deede to obtayne righteousnesse which fayth obteineth wherein is the beautie inwarde of the kings daughter c. Howbeit in this fast or dinner on the Saterday nothing seemeth to me heerein to be kepte more safely and quietly than that he which eateth dispise not him that eateth not nor he which eateth not dispise not him which eateth For neither if we eate we shall abounde neither shall we want if we do not eate That is to say while we keepe companie with those among whome we liue and with whome we liue to God without offence taking in these things For as for that the Apostle saythe is true it is ill for the man that eateth through offence so is it ill for the man that by offence doth fast c. Thus farre saint Augustine agaynst the precise appointing of fast on the Saterday in whose time it was frée for euery Church to vse hir owne custome Yea as he concludeth with aunswere of Ambrose hereon VVhen I am at Millaine I fast not on the Saterday when I am at Rome I fast on the Saterday And to what Church ye come keepe the order thereof if ye will neither giue nor take offence Thus we sée first how the fastes of the Church of Rome were no such lawe to all other Churches to receyue from hir their order or dayes of fasting or else they had bene Aerians for then had both S. Augustine Ambrose to béene Aerians by master Stapletons rule and by the Popes obtrusion of his Churches fastes to all other Churches nowe But the Church of Millayne euen vnder his nose besydes those of Affrick were at that time of contrarie orders Secondly as it was of Saterdayes fast so was it also for Fridayes fast or any other daies or day as appeareth by Saint Augustines generall rule in appealing to the Scripture and there finding no day at all appoynted As he sayth afterward againe Sed quoniam noÌ„ inâ—…enimus c. But bicause we finde not as I haue rehearsed aboue in the Euangelicall and Apostolicall writings which properly perteyne to the reuealing of the newe Testament that on any certaine dayes it is euidently commaunded we should keepe fastes c. Thirdly that what dayes soeuer they did kéepe fast they did it not as any meritorious act to obteyne righteousnesse thereby For this was the difference that the Papists put betwene him that fasted and that fasted not which is a thousand partes worse heresie than was that of Aerius I aske none other witnesse herein than euen one of your owne side Frier Ferus who inueying agaynst the Phariseys for ascribing righteousnesse to their sacrifices and ceremonies But wee sayth he do all things preposterously placing righteousnesse in these things which of themselues are neither good nor bad neglecting those things wherein true righteousnesse consisteth But one errour draweth on another For from hence followeth first that we make to our selues a greater conscience of the transgression of the Churches or Monkishe decrees than of the transgression of the diuine precepts Secondly hereon it commeth that we easily iudge other that obserue not the same as here did the disciples of Iohn VVhen Paule notwithstanding teacheth let no man iudge you in meate or in drinke or by reason of a feast day c. Item he that eateth not let him not iudge him that eateth c. To conclude it is farre an other thing to doe the worke than to put a trust in the worke It is good to fast and to keepe the Churches decrees but to put a trust in them is not only not good but wicked For this cause therfore Christ required not fasting other bodily obseruations he exacted not of those that are his or prescribed ought at all of these things not that he iudged such things of theÌ„selues to be euill or vnlawfull but that they should not â—…all thither againe that is to were to a trust of workes from whiche he woulde haue them most farre The which surely had chauÌ„ced if he had exacted any such thing of those that are his as nowe we perceyne is committed in the Churches constitutions For euen as sone as euer these coÌ„stitutions began to be giuen men began also therwith to trust in them And so by little little we haue
no quoth he that will I neuer doe I had rather alway begge my breade And so the matter was dasht The yong man retourning came by a chapell where was the picture of the blessed Virgin holding hir childe in hir armes and he began to inuocate hir with all his heart and by the merites of hir repented earnestly calling instantly vpon the Virgin Marie for he durst not call vppon the highest whom he had denied VVith that he hearde the mother speake to hir sonne in hir armes saying my most sweete Sonne be mercifull to this man To whom hir Sonne would not speake one worde but writhed his face from hir And when againe she besought hir Sonne for him he turned his backe to his mother and said he hath renied me what shall I doe to him when she saw this she set downe the childe on the altare and fell at his feet saying I beseech thee sonne that for me thou wilt forgiue him and streight the infant lift vp his mother and sayde O mother I coulde neuer denie thee any thing beholde for thy sake I forgiue him all Thus ye made the mother farre more mercyfull and louing than Christe and that forgiuenesse of sinnes is in hir name and for hir sake And made the people by these tales beléeue that it was a more heynous offence to denye the blessed Uirgin than it was to renounce oure Sauioure Christe The same authour telleth yet a more fonde and wicked tale How S. Dominike on a night saw Christe standing in the ayre shaking in his hand three speares against the world and his mother ranne hastily againste him and demaunded him what he would doe and he sayd to hir All the worlde is full of vices of pride of luxurie and of auarice and therfore I will destroye them with these three speares then the blessed virgin fell downe at his feete ▪ and sayd Deare sonne haue pitie and tarrie thy iustice by thy mercie And Iesus Christ sayd to hir Seest thou not howe many vvrongs and iniuries they haue done to mee And she answered Son attemper thy wrathe and tarie a little I haue a true seruaunt and a noble fighter against the vices he shal runne ouer all and vanquishe the worlde and subdue them vnder thy seignorie and I shall giue him an other seruaunt into his helpe that shall fighte as hee dothe And oure Lorde her sonne sayde I am appeased and receyue thy prayer But I woulde see vvhome thou wilte sende in so greate offence And so the tale telleth howe she fette and presented vnto him Saincte Dominicke and S. Frauncis and howe Christe praysed them And thus once the worlde was saued by hir and hir two champions On the other syde of the leafe as a confirmation to this is declared howe an other tyme a deuout Ladies chaplein called sir William dyd see Christe sitte in his throne and on his right hand an angell standing with a trumpet whom Christe with a cleere voyce in the hearyng of all the armie of heauen bad blowe And when he had blovven the blast was so mightie that all the worlde shooke as it had bene a leafe on a tree to whome Christe sayde the seconde tyme Blovve and he blevve as before But the Virgin Mary mother of mercie knovvyng that yf he blevve agayne all the vvorlde vvere ended the other Sainctes being all husht shee starte vp and fell at hir Sonnes feete and besoughte him vvith muche adoe to deferre his sentence and spare the worlde To vvhome Christe aunsvvered Mother all the vvorlde is sette on wickednesse and doe so prouoke me vvith their sinnes that neither I ought to suspende my sentence nor spare man Sith not only the laitie but the clergie also yea the Monkes haue vtterly corrupted theyr vvayes and offende me from day to daye And then sayde his mother My deare son spare them though not for those wicked ones yet at the least for my frends sakes and so Christ vvas pleased once againe An other tyme the matter wente so harde that the Uirgin Maries image fell a sweating so fast in the Church that all the people maruelled And the cause was this The sonne of Marie had euen stretched oute his arme to strike the vvorld and if his mother had not run the quicklier and stayed his arme the vvorlde had bene destroyed ere novve This is the intercession that youre Church ascribeth to hir M. Stapleton makyng hir a greate deale more prone to mercie than Christ the fountain of mercie and mercie it selfe by these youre wicked and blasphemous fables But what said I ▪ I should haue said by these your holy histories and deuoute sermons But sée withall what true doctrine ye teache that the sainctes do pray for the deferring of the kingdome of God where Christe teacheth vs to pray that he would vouchsafe to hasten his kingdom saying Let thy kingdome come And willeth the godlie to lift vp their heads when they shall heare of the signes thereof and sayth that vnlesse God should shorten those dayes no fleshe should be saued and he will cut them off for the electes sake And the Martirs slaine for the worde of God doe long still for his cōming and crie How long O Lord which art holie and true wilt thou not iudge the worlde and reuenge oure bloud of those that dwell in the earth And there were giuen to them white garmentes and they were bidde rest a whyle till the number of theyr felow seruants and brethren were fulfilled that should be slayne likewise And the spirite and the spouse sayth come and he that heareth let him say Come c. And Christe sayeth Yea I come quickly Amen Yea Lorde Iesu come quickly sayth S. Iohn And your Church saith As an harlot that is afrayde of the husbands comming come not And ye tell vs that the blessed Uirgin hath nowe thrée tymes stayed backe his arme and wil not lette him come You haue hitherto ascribed verie muche and much more than ought to be ascribed to a creature but do ye go no further ye pretende that the death of Christ is auaylable but no further than the blessed virgin doth obtain it at his hād by hir mercie What a tale is that ye tel vs euen where as ye mention the bloud of Christe howe a certains noughtie religious man vsing notwithstāding to say an hundreth Aue Maries euery day the deuils brought him béeing dead in his sinnes before Christ to be iudged Christ pronounced him to be eternally condemned With that came the blessed virgin and offred the papers wherein the Aue Maries wer written desiring Christ to go to iudgemēt once again The deuils seeing that brought all the bookes of his sinnes and when the balance was peysed his sinnes did ouerwey the Auies which séeing the virgin besought Christ saying Thou art my sonne the bloud that thou hast thou hast of me I pray thee giue me one droppe thereof
c. before you so all you stande nowe with vs stifely at this baye that they are euen as necessarie to saluation as the word of god And if ye let goe this tackling all come downe on anheape Whiche Alfonsus foreâ—…éeing or euer he woulde make his booke as he termes it agaynst heresies Iaciendum est solidissimum fundamentum c. VVe muste laye saythe he a moste sounde foundation wherewith we muste hereafter moste often defende our selues agaynst heretikes as with a moste sure bulwarck that the traditions and difinitions of the vniuersal church in those thinges that pertayne to faythe althoughe the euident scripture fayle for the proofe of them are of no lesse authoritie than the holy Scripture it selfe And agayne Mihi horum per tot seecula c. The authoritie of these most approued men by so many ages should suffice to me although I had by no former reason conuicted it Let vs therfore say that the Churche muste be obeyed in all things that are to be beleeued or to be done although the authoritie of scripture want Thus do you estéeme and stoutly stande to the defence of your ceremonies quite contrarie to all the foresaide auÌ„cient fathers that giue as we do all especiall prerogatiue to the only scriptures You were best therfore to call them heretikes UigilantiaÌ„s with vs for so your Sorbonists played with Erasmus Though he allowed many of your popishe ceremonies and durst not speake open mouthed agaynst any of them for it had beene to hotte for him since he dyd but touche them ful softly and yet they cried out vpon him a Uigilantian an Aerian an heretike as héere you doe A sore â—…adde ye knowe is soone broken and they are tender ware and dayntie to be delte withall the least worde in the worlde agaynst them will make a maruellous heretike Erasmus had but sayde Quo magis haeremus c. Howe muche more we cleaue to bodily ceremonies so muche the more wee encline to Iudaisme And dyd but wyshe on thys wyse Opto omnes esse tales c. I wishe that all men were suche that they mighte not muche neede bodily ceremonies or not giue so much vnto them And that Christ said Discipulis nihil istarum reruÌ„ prascribo I prescribe to my Disciples nought of these things eate this meate abstayne from that now rest now labour be clad thus touch not this handle not that if I were their master they shoulde not once learne to trust in these bodily thinges least they shoulde remayne weake alwayes He sayde but thus and lesse he coulde not well say and say any thing but Lorde what sturre the Sorbonistes made at the matter and howe they all to be heretiked hym Aerian Aetian Iouinian Uigilantian c. So that he was fayne for feare so muche as he mighte to sette a good collour on these your ceremonies and when he had salued the matter as well as he coulde what sayde he then in this retractation for them Iudaismun appello â—…on Iudaicam impietatem I call them Iudaisme not Iudaicall impietie And yet for al his excuses and commendations he was fayne to say Quanquam si Ecclesia tribuitur c. Although if that be attributed to the Church what so euer is prescribed of the Bishops or is done in the churches there are many coÌ„stitutions of Bishops of the which not with out cause all men make a publike complainte There are many ceremonies in certaine Churches the which ye may call either to no purpose or els foolish or else superstitious for commonly either some idle Deane or els some other meane man like him hath deuised them Oft times some old wife giuing monie therefore obteyneth that this or that be done now than certaine creepe in or if not so they breake in euen by the violence of the coÌ„mon peoples custome He should therefore not speake wickedly that should say the libertie of the Christian people is burdened with such constitutions and ceremonies especially when among them there are not a fewe that do no good at all to godlinesse but either to lucre or ambition Thus was Erasmus euen where he defendeth your ceremonies constrained to confesse Yea where he speaketh euen the best of them In his obseruandis c. In obseruing these saith he although they were ordayned to godlinesse the minde of many Christians is Iewishe either while they rest there neglecting those things that are of the spirit or els while with a preposterous Iudgement they attribute more to those outwarde things then to true godlinesse which is settled in the affections But euen as the hardnesse of the Iewes was to be kept in with so many prescriptions as it were with boundes so charitie waxing colde in Christians caused that the Bishops prescribed many things not vnlike the Iewishe prescriptions although to be kept with an vnlike minde For they are as it were certaine wagons wherein the infancie of little children is brought vnto the spirite As he sheweth after an example Exemplicausa c. For ensample the people is bid to bow their knees or their heads to god By this ceremonie the people is warned to submit their soule to God this helpe he that is perfect neede not who submitteth his minde to God in what state soeuer his bodie be And although that such as this the bodies comely gesture of knéeling which is not a ceremonie inueÌ„ted of your Bishops but taught vs in Gods word by Christ and his Apostles manner of prayer we not onely vse but also diuerse of your Churches Ceremonies be not refused of vs but kept yet are they vsed farre otherwise than your prelates vrged them or your people kept them reposing in them as Erasmus saith Proram puppim Sanctimoniae The whole stay of Religion Tali hominuÌ„ genere quoniam c. Bicause saith he I saw the worlde full of such kinde of men I now and then call them backe to the studies of true godlinesse from the admiration of ceremonies But to admonish to trust to ceremonies I neither thought it necessary nor safe Of the worde of trusting let other looke to it vnto me to whom this worde to trust soundeth to leane principally vnto it soundeth hardly to trust to the workes of men and to trust to Ceremonies Neither finde I these voices either in the diuine writings or in the writings of godly men Thus hardly was Erasmus driueÌ„ to his defence about your Ceremonies by the Facultie of the Diuines of Paris that vrged the necessitie vertue and confidence in them In the ende of all which conflictes as he saith to them so say I to you M. Stap. Quid autem his tot c. Of all these so many propositions what is done that shoareth vp Christian Religion that the people should beleeue a Monkes cowle was auailable to heale diseases that passing ouer Christe we should with petitions sollicite the Saincts That
very many should runne to Hierusalem leauing their wiues and childreÌ„ and thinke that a meruaylous kinde of godlinesse is therein that we should thinke all the constitutions of men to binde vs on paine of hell fire That we should put the chiefest parte of Religion in the choyse of meates that in the Churches no decking should seeme to much but eueÌ„ excesse also should pertaine to the honour of God that to what Ceremonies ye lust very much should be attributed that boyes and wenches for triflings causes so sone as euer they repent them of their estate dispising their parents should runne to MoÌ„kes or Nonnes that no man but a Diuine should talke of Christ or of the holy Scriptures that in Sainctes we should put very much confidence that we should know euill men not to be indeede in the Churche but to be of the Churche that we should beleue the Church to be marueylously trimmed with an exceeding and wonderfull strange varietie of seruices and vestiments that lawyers should be comly appareled that we should kisse the shoe soles and the shoes of saincts that nothing at all of the Popes institutions should be released although great profite should moue it that they that are dying should lay-out obites that mans mortuaries may be made that in them we should repose very much trust other matters of this sorte But Christian godlinesse is placed herein that we should loue God with al our hart and our neighbour as our selues That in Christ we should put the summe of our hope that we should frame our manners our life after the doctrine and exaÌ„ple of him after the rule of the Scriptures FroÌ„ the which whosoeuer calleth vs away by any manner of means they do rather leade vs into the dauÌ„ger of Paganisme Thus much Erasmus so far as he durst so truly that you nor all the world can denie theÌ„ escried the wickednesse of your popish Ceremonies which bicause we refuse on these so good coÌ„sideratioÌ„s ye cal vs Heretikes But whether we in not admitting them or you in vrging maintayning them be rather Heretikes let the Reader discerne Iudge You aske vs next what we say to the Messalians and other Heretikes saying concupiscence as a sinne remayneth in vs after holy Baptisme To your other namelesse Heretikes when ye name the childe we shall tell you what we say vnto them To the Messalians saying sinne remaines in vs after holy Baptisme I answere that euen your selfe do shewe by your continuall lust of lying that concupiscence after holy Baptisme is yet a fowle sinne in you Otherwise ye would not still so lust to lie both on vs the Fathers and the Heretikes also Ye cite S. Augustine to declare the Messalians errour and so he truly doth telling how they say that in Baptisme our sinnes are taken away as a raâ—…er taketh heare away leauing the stoompes vntaken away If ye obiect this vnto vs your selfe beareth witnesse against you that ye sâ—…ander vs For we fréely coufesse that by Baptisme the forgiuenesse of all our sinnes stoomps all past or to come is sealed vp vnto vs So that they are all washt away but as S. Augustine saith of Originall sinne him selfe Non vt non sit sed vt non imputetur Not that it is not but that is nor imputed So that hereby you will make S. Augustine him selfe a Messalian that writeth against the Messalians And I may say to you your iolie porkling Pigghius maketh of S. Augustine litle better accompte Deinde hoc mihi videtur eâ—…identer falsum c. Furthermore saith he this seemeth to me euidently false in that he saith carnall concupiscence the which is in our flesh sighting against the lawe of our minde to be properly and truly sinne in those which are not Baptized The which should be forgiuen in Baptisme that it should be sinne no more and yet not withstanding should remaine the gilt of it being taken away For the which cause he is so offended with S. Augustine that very groynishly he saith Ut autem haec ipsa vis concupiscibilis c. But that this very force of concupiscence should properly be sinne a faulte iniquitie odious of it selfe to God and execrable and placing in his wrath indignation or displeasure it seemeth to me to be spoken most absurdely â–ª nor no lesse absurdly that the selfe same should remaine and not be also abhominable to God if at any time it were so Thus hoggishly someth Pigghius against S. Augustine for making Concupiscence and Original sinne to be verily sinne euen before Baptisme misconstruing S. Augustine in saying it is not sinne after baptisme Where S. August expoundeth himself that it is not sinne then in that respect that it is not imputed but forgiuen where before it was sinne in it selfe and in imputation also being not yet forgiuen Nowe where he sayth this is most absurde to say that it was sinne before and it still remayneth after baptisme the same that it was before baptisme and that it is not abhominable sinne after baptisme if it were so before putting the case it were so before It followeth then that eyther you confesse master Stap. with Saint August that it is still in it selfe sinne after baptisme though not sinne by imputation or else that ye say with Piâ—…hius that it is neyther sinne in it selfe nor by imputation neyther after nor before If ye say with Saint Augustine you incurre that which Pigghius calleth the most absurditie and yet incurre you a greater making Saint Augustine a Messalian to that purposely wrote agaynst them yea and your selfe a Messalian with vs also agréeing with vs therein and yet therein wryting agaynst vs. If ye say with Pigghius thinking to escape absurditie in being agaynst Saint Augustine which notwithstanding is absurditie inough to be agaynst him whom ye pretende to follow you incurre manifest falshood in being against the truth yea and more absurditie to then any yet rehearsed For whether is it more absurde to impute sinne to him that hath none or to forgiue him his sinne that yet in déede hath sinne and of mercie not to impute it to him as though he had not that he hath which is no absurditie at all â–ª For although where sinne is it may be not imputed yea as Dauid sayth this is blessednesse Beatuâ—… vir cuâ—… dominus non imputauit peccatum Blessed is the man whose sinnes the Lorde hath not imputed to him Yet can there not be imputation of sinne where there is in déed no sinne at all as Pigghius most absurdly sayth Groyne you nowe with Pigghius that it is neyther sinne after nor before and we will take Saint Augustines great absurditie on vs to defende that it is in it selfe verie sinne and damnable sinne before baptisme and remayneth still in his nature verie sinne but not damnable bicause it is not imputed after baptisme And now let vs
you captiously gybe and cauill for that belongeth not to supreme gouernment But that he is so the supreme gouernour in ouerséeing the consecration and deliuerie of the true foode wherewith the people of God ought to be fedde that euen he ouerséeth the féeder himselfe And for this cause the King is called of the Prophete the nourishing father and Quéenes are named Nourses that although the ministerie of féeding pertaine to the ministers yet the prouision for the foode the ouersight that the children of God be duely fedde with the right milke with the true bread and water of lyfe belongeth to the Princes And therefore haue they the name of nourses not to nourishe them in ciuill matters and corporall fâ—…de onely but as in ciuil so in â—…acte verbi in the milke of the worde of God also Is this only the cherishing of the good childe by giuing landes reuenewes maintenaunce and lyuing to the Churche Is this onely the displing of the frowarde childâ—… or as ye call it the punishing of the heretike No M. Stapleton Lyra his exposition and yours doe not agrée He sayth they are nourses what to doe to feede whom the faithfull ones wherewith with the milke of the worde whose worde euen the worde and sacraments of God. Wherof sith the ministery and execution belongeth not vnto them but to the ministers it followeth necessarily thervpon that the prouision direction appointment care and ouersight which is the supreme gouernement belongeth to them And this is that which Lyrâ—… confesseth the B. vrgeth of Constantine that he was such another nourse as did kepe defend maintaine vpholde and feede the pore faithfull ones of Christ yea caried them in his bosome as it were and procured them to be fedde did set forth proclamations not only against false religion but also to set forth to exhort and allure vnto the Christian faith caused not only the Idolatrous religion to bee suppressed but caused also on the other parte the true knowledge and religion of Christ to bee brought in and planted among his people and did not only make lawes for punishing heretikes and Idolaters but also reformed all manner abuses about Gods seruice Thus sayth the Bishop out of Eusebius did Constantine play the nourses part Nowe what saye you to all this M. Stapleton All this of Constantine say you is graunted and maketh nothing for you Whether it maketh for vs or no we will not contende But it maketh for the matter and being graunted it maketh vp the matter For and ye will graunt thus much from your heart inwarde which ye nowe graunt from the téeth outwarde by compulsion of the manifest truth ye might come home well ynough with a wannion and bestow your wit and trauell better than thus to graunt vnto and yet with pieuishnesse to wythstande the manifest truth of the matter The Quéenes Maiesties othe requireth no more of you to giue to hir than here ye graunt to giue to Constantine to set foorth Christes religion to make lawes and constitutions not only of punishment but of reformation of all maner abuses about Gods seruice to prouide that the Church be fed with Gods worde and in all pointes aboue sayde shewe her selfe a very nource of the Church committed to hir gouernement as the childe is to the nourse What one thing ecclesiasticall is not here comprehended or can ye shewe cause why she ought not to haue the same authoritie in hir dominions as well as Constantine to whome ye graunt it had in his if ye saye she doth not this but the contrarie this is but your wicked slaunder M. Stapleton But graunt hir hir interest and then trie that Hir right is one thing and whether she dischargeth well the same or no is another thing Graunt hir hir right as you doe to Constantine and then spare not to improue what ye can proue amisse Nowe hauing graunted thus much which in dede concludeth vp all the matter least he shoulde vtterly be discrâ—…dited of all his friendes he goeth about so much as he can in wrangling of wordes to defeate once againe all his former graunt according to his practise in the Chapter before For where the Bishop by the example of Constantyne proueth the Prince to be herein not only a nourse to the people but also to bee appoynted vnto them of God as it were the common or vniuersall Byshop as Eusebius testifieth of Constantine and Constantine to other Byshops calleth himselfe a Byshop signifying his carefull ouersight ouer all his people in setting forth Gods true religion Maister Stapleton first snappeth at thys worde Byshoppe secondlye hée challengeth the Byshoppe for curtalling Eusebius sentence And when Eusebius sayeth he calleth hym as it were a common or vniuersall Byshoppe I suppose yee meane not that hee was a Byshop in deede For your selfe confesse that Princes Bishops offices are farre distincted and disseuered that the one ought not to break into the office of the other The Bishops meaning is euident master Stap. and so are his words But your meaning is to brabble to tickle in the Readers heade a suspition that he confounded these offices Is there no difference betwéene these sayings he was as it were a Bishop and he was a Bishop in dede Yes M. St. and ye were not a very wrangler in dede ye might perceyue by these wordes as it were he plainly ment and as it were spake it that he was no B. in deede And what though he were no Bishop in dede in the function and office of a Bishops ministerie no more was he also a nourse in deede nor the people were suckling babes in deede nor the worde of God is milke in deede yet as these things be not falsly spoken but being borowed speaches in their senses import not onely a true but a more excellent vnderstanding than the bare wordes vsually betoken so the Emperour being named to be as it were a common or vniuersall Bishop and yet in deede being no Bishop it argueth that he had this name bicause of his common and vniuersall gouernment ouersight and care ouer all Bishops and causes Ecclesiasticall This shift therefore to slinke away from the manifest meaning of the wordes by threaping on the Bishop this kindnesse that he shoulde meane to proue him a very Bishop in dede is a very meane shift though it haue in dede a shrewde meaning Master Stapleton And if you did so meane say you Eusebius himself would soone confounde you if you reherse Constantines whole sentence that he spake to the Bishops What a good year meane ye M. St. ye vrge this meaning further than néedes that the B. should meane to make the Emperor a Bishop in the Bishoply ministerie therfore curtalled as ye call it Eusebius sentences If Eusebius sentence set it downe as whole as ye list confound them that meane to confound these offices it will neuer soone or late confound the B. the popish Bishops
it may rather confounde for they confounde their offices turning Bishops not as it were into lay men but into lay men in deede What the Bishops wordes do meane is most playne to a man of meane witte that list not to Iangle about nothing neither the wordes importe any such meaning nor this is any thing in question the ministeriall office but the supreme gouernment which are two farre different things But since that to no purpose ye chalenge the B. for curtalling Eusebius words let vs behold how you do set them downe For thus say you he saith to the Bishops Vos quidem eorum quae intus sunt in Ecclesia agenda ego vero eorum qua extra sunt Episcopus à Deo sum constitutuâ—… You are Bishops saith he of those thinges that are to be done within the Church I am Bishop of outwarde thinges which answere of his may satisfie any reasonable man for all that ye bring in here of Constantine or all that ye shall afterwarde bring in which declareth him no supreme Iudge or chiefe determiner of causes Ecclesiasticall but rather the contrarie and that he was the ouerseer in ciuill matters And the most that may be enferred hereof is that he had the procuration and execution of Churche matters which I am assured all Catholikes will graunt Ye would faine I sée M. Stapl. reuoke your graunt and it could be cleanly conueyde or so to limite it that it might not appéere ye haue granted that that all your fellowes denie But this reuocation is to late Neuerthelesse fuli pretely ye compasse the matter to defeate all these most plaine not wordes but doings of Constantine by shoouing at this name B. shop in the Emperour which in any case ye caÌ„ not abide And therefore as who though B. went aboute to confounde the offices of a Bishop and of a Prince and thereto had concealed Eusebius words ye solemnly take on yâ—…n to set them out both in Latine and in English. But tell me by that false faith of yours M. Stapleton why ye haue not translated the wordes aright in English that ye haue set downe in Latine did ye sée in déede they made nothing for you but rather much against you is the English of intus in Ecclesia within the Church And the English of eorum quae extra Outward ciuill things or matters or Ego vero c. Episcopus à ' Deo sum constitutâ—… I am a Bishop what is manifest corruption of plaine wordes and euident sense if this be not this is past cutting of the tayle M. St. or slitting his nose and paring his eares to dresse it like a perfect curtall but euen to cutte both buttockes and heade away and make it a carrion karkasse this translating is trans I ordanem in déede But the wordes of Constantine the sense are plaine You saith he speaking to the spirituall pastours are Bishops of those thinges that in the Churche are to be done within or inwardly But I am appointed of God a Bishop of those things that are forthout or outwardly As who should say your Bishoply office in Gods Churche is in the ministeris of those things that worke inwardly that perce the heart enter into the soule cleaue the thoughtes in sunder and properly belong to the inwarde man the liuely worde of god My Bishoply office in Gods Churche is distinguished from this and is in things without that is in the outwarde setting forth and publique direction of Gods worde to be duly taught by you Thus both their offices were in Gods Church the matter and groundworke of both their Bishoprikes was Gods true religion But the doing of the one was pertayning to the inwarde man the doing of the other to the outwarde man. And this is the very distinctioÌ„ that Constantine maketh which being not falsely translated as you do and so misunderstoode may satisfie as ye say any reasonable man But your vnderstanding is very vnreasonable to vnderstand by inward things things ecclesiasticall and by outward things only ciuill things in déede they be out and quite out of the consideration of the Churche But wherefore then called he him selfe a Bishop also with them yea an vniuersall Bishop as Eusebius termeth him but to declare that his ouersighte was in the same matter that was theirs the matter was Gods truth and Religion in bothe the manner was outwarde or inwarde as eithers Bishoprike required Otherwise if he had meant onely of ciuill matters as you expounde he had bene no more a Bishop thereby than the very Soldane or great Turke or any other Heathen Prince that ouersee their ciuill matters very circumspectly And so as ye did in your fourth Chapter ye make Constantine for all these notable things in him that your selfe before haue graunted no better than an infidell Prince in this behalfe For by outward ye say is meant ciuill matters But the ciuill gouernement ye say also reacheth no furder than the peoples quietnesse wealth abundance and prosperouse maintenance that these thinges are common as well to the heathen as to the Christian gouernment Thinke ye M. Stapleton these Fathers meant no furder gouernment nor in other matters than these when they called Constantine an vniuersall Bishop and that Constantine measured his office no furder when he called him selfe by the name of a Bishop â–ª for shame M. Stapleton deface not to Christian a Prince after so Turkish a manner nor thereto so manifestly falsifie your authour nor abuse your reader with such a shamelesse impudence Well say you And the moste that may be inferred thereof is that he had the procuration and execution of Churche matters which I am assured all Catholikes will graunt May we be assured M. Stapleton on your worde that all your popish Catholikes will graunt euen thus much For I verily feare they will graunt it no furder than it pleaseth them And where ye are so readie to assure vs of others graunts what assurance haue we had alreadie of all your owne liberall graunts when ye were disposed to wrangle as now againe ye do for how agreeth this euen with your former graunt that Princes might make lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion that Princes might take some regiment vppon them in Ecclesiasticall causes yea might do as much as all these ensamples specifie and that now ye make the most to be but the procuration and execution of Church matters Although what ye meane by these wordes ye tell not would ye haue them onely the Churches that is as you meane by the Churche onely the Priests proctours and executioners now truly ye limite them a full faire office But thinke ye the name of B. and vniuersall B. did importe nothing els was that the most that may be inferred thereof and yet that is more than onely to be their executioner as ye said before to be as ye adde here to it their proctour also Yea it is
much more than not to meddle in Church matters at all But as ye falsly expounded Eusebius before so here ye controlle and falsefie your owne saying affirming that the most which may be enferred hereof is that he had the procuration and execution of Church matters If this be either the most or ought at all then your former exposition of ciuill ouersight was at the least a false corruption of you But and ye marke it well ye shall finde and neuer goe to the moste for the matter that this title and other the doings of this noble Christian Emperour comprehended much more thâ—…n either to be a Priestes proctour or executioner in Churche matters yea to betoken in very déede a chiefe and supreme gouernour Your thirde parte of this diuision is altogither an impertinent quarell of Images chalenging the Bishop of an vntruth and therefore besides that is saide alreadie sufficiently on the same argument is answered in his proper place The. 21. Diuision THe Bishop hauing thus fully proued that the ensamples and prophecies of the old Testament were figures to be perfourmed in the new entreth into the confirmatioÌ„ therof by the newe Testament And first in this diuision proueth by two allegations of our Sauiour Christ that this authoritie of Princes in the olde Testament is confirmed by Christ to christian Princes in the newe But the Princes authoritie in the olde Testament stretcheth not onely to ciuill matters but also to the ouersight mayntenance setting foorth and furtherance of religion and matters ecclesiasticall Ergo Christ hath confirmed in the newe Testament that christian Princes power stretcheth not onely to ciuill matters but also to the ouersighte mayntenance setting foorth and furtheraÌ„ce of religion and matters ecclesiastical The minor is proued already by these foresayde examples of the olde Testament The maior the Bishop proueth by two testimonies of Iesus Christ. The first generally in Matt. 5. that he came to accomplishe the lawe and the Prophetes The seconde out of Math. 22. where he commaunded all men to giue that vnto Cesar that belonged to Cesar and bounded the Princes authoritie by the worde of God. To the minor master Stap. sayth not one worde neither in his marginall notes nor Counterblast Belike that he relenteth to it according to his owne rule Qui tacet consâ—…re videtuâ—… he that holdes his peace seemeth to consent The maior likewise he graunteth in saying Master Horne goeth yet needlesly forward to proue that Christ did not destroy the rule of Princes in Church causes figured in the olde lawe Whervpon till M. St. shall denie one of these two propositions the conclusion foloweth of necessarie consequence against him Onely M. St. thinketh it inough for him to euerturne all the argument if he denie the proues of the maior graunting to the other proofe and ther vpon bendeth all his answere against this sentence Giue vnto Cesar that belongeth vnto Cesar. But this no whit hindreth the argument so long as he graunteth the other proofe yea thoughe he denied that also so long as he graunteth the maior it selfe to the confirmation whereof bothe these allegations were broughte foorth But let vs sée howe properly he handleth them And nowe at the length sayth M. St. catcheth he one testimonie out of the newe Testament to proue his saying which is giue vnto Cesar that belongeth vnto him VVhich place nothing at all serueth his turne but rather destroyeth I will not say any figure of the olde Testament but master Hornes foolishe figuratiue diuinitie I feare me master Stapleton that you which vpbrayde others for foolishe figuratiue diuinitie will euen in this diuision shewe not the wysest diuinitie in Louayne I had almoste sayde also your owne more than foolishe diuinitie without any figure at all But firste let vs sée your false diuinitie The Byshop héere togither citeth two testimonies out of the newe Testament and you come in saying Now at the length catcheth he one testimonie out of the newe Testament to proue his saying But to winke at this false diuinitie with what wise diuinitie do ye improue this one testimonie For it is so farre off say you that of this place master Horne maye make any grounde for the ecclesiasticall authoritie of Princes that it dothe not as much as inferre that we ought to pay so muche as tribute to our Princes but only that we may pay it Surely M. Stap. this is a trim diuinitie and as trim logike as diuinitie Christ commaundeth vs saying giue that vnto Cesar that belongeth vnto Cesar Ergo we may but we ought not to giue it him Where haue ye founde this new logike and diuinitie M. Stap Is it Louayne stuffe a 〈◊〉 would haue thought this reason better of the twayne that if we ought not then of righte we neither mighte nor shoulde giue vnto euery body that belongeth to them and so denie to the Prince that belongeth to him But this we may not nor should do but to giue him and all men their duetie therfore we ought to do it But stil sée how ye wrap your words in contradiction Ye graunt that this sentence Giue vnto Cesar that belongeth vnto Cesar doth not destroy any figure of the olde Testament if it do not destroy it then it confirmeth it and ratifieth to the Prince that belonged to the Prince and that the Prince had in the olde Testament but the Prince had then authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters as ye confessed in the two laste diuisions Ergo by this sentence the same authoritie is nowe confirmed How then say ye héere it maketh no grounde for the authoritie of Princes in ecclesiasticall matters since their authoritie was a figure and this sentence ye say doth not destroy it but nowe you haue made this sentence destroy the figure quite For that duetie that belonged to Princes before stoode not on a may bawe it lay not in the subiectes choyse to choose whether they woulde yéelde the Prince that belonged to him or no as thoughe they mighte if they woulde they néede not if they list but they must and ought of necessarie duety and obedieÌ„ce haue yéelded to the Prince whatsoeuer to him belonged in the time of that figure of the olde Testament And this sentence say you hath not destroyed the figure Ergo This sentence now bindeth and confirmeth it with as great duetie and necessitie and not lesse But say you this sentence dothe not so much as inferre that we oughte to paye so muche as tribute to our Princes Ergo This sentence hath destroyed the figure set vs at libertie in that the figure bounde vs And thus not onely ye speake quite contrarie to your selfe and to all reason but besides with your good diuinitie haue taken away al humanitie For what pollicie can consist in any sure estate if their subiectes be not bounde of duetis but at their pleasures may or may not yéelde their dueties to their soueraigne
that be in authoritie no authoritie at all What a saying is this and yet sée how your selfe confute your selfe Going about to embarre their authority ye say he meÌ„â—…ioned their peaceable gouernmeÌ„t â–ª He did so in déede M. St. But what gouernment or what peaceable estate of gouernment had they if they had no authoritie at all It sée meth that while ye 〈◊〉 to saye somewhat against their authoritie ye neytâ—… oâ—… regarde nor can tell what ye say of them nor of the Apostles â—…eyther to maintayne your false quarrell Now as ye further procéede so still ye bring your selfe more in the briers But will yee knowe say you M. Hoâ—…ne why thapostles both Saint Peter and Saint Paule so earnestly taught at that time obedience to Princes Ha go to then M. St. belike they tauâ—…ht obedience to Princes more earnestly than your Popishe Prelates haue taught or pract sed since that time or than your selfe haue herâ—… taught vs not ouer earnestly but God wote full sâ—…enderly or rather by all shifts and fetches of your wits haue sought to deface and impuâ—…nt their authoritie But how agréeth this with S. Paule earnest teaching Yea â–ª howe woulde ye make Saint Paule agrée to himselfe To say that he speaketh there of no authoritie at all in Princes and yet that here he taught obedience to Princes so earnestlye What obedience taught he if he taught not their authoritie at all What earnestnesse vsed he then therein but let vs sée as ye would haue vs what was the cause of the Apostles earnestnesse This was the cause In the beginning of the Church some Christians were of this opinion that for that they were Christian men they were exempted from the lawes of the Infidell Princes and were not bounde to pay them any tribute or otherwise to obey them To represse and reforme this wrong iudgemeÌ„t of theirs the Apostles Peter and Paule by you named diligently employed themselues And was this a wrong opinion and iudgement M. Stapleton and with such earnestnesse and diligence employed of the Apostles Peter and Paule to be repressed and reformed that Christians for that they were Christian men were exempted from the lawes of the Infidell Princes and were not bound to pay them any tribute or otherwise to obey them What a right opinion and iudgement then was this of him that affirmed not only the same of Infidell Princes but of Christian Princes to that we be not bounde by force of anye wordes of Christes sentence which as â—…latly commaundeth vs as any of these the Apostles sentences doe to obey or paye so much as tribute to our Christian Princes Doe ye not knowe who this was that helde this wrong opinion M. Stapleton Well who soeuer it was I thinke be must with shame saye that of him selfe which he spake of another that eyther hee recanteth as better aduised or else writeth playne contrary to himselfe But nowe sayth M. St. for the Apostles sentences VVhose sayings can not implye your pretensed gouernment vnlesse ye will say that Nero the wicked and heathenishe Emperour was in his time the supreme head of all the Church of Christ throughout the Empire as well in causes spirituall as temporall As before M. Stapleton you captiously restrained Christes generall commaundement of obedience to Princes only to the Emperour so doe ye here againe besides that ye sticke also in the person abusing his office and let the dutie of his office go Whereas S. Paule writeth generally not only for those then present but for all kinges or any other in authoritie both then and from thenceforth for euer And so doe all the Expositours gather a generall rule for all Christians towards their christian Princes although Nero and other princes then were wicked and Heathenishe infidels Yet in the duetie of their estate to the which God had called them they ought neither to haue bene wicked nor Heathenish Infidels but godly and faithfâ—…ll defenders and setters forth of Christ his true religioÌ„ To reason therfore from such persons abuses therevpon to denie from all princes the dutie of their lawfull authoritie is as naughtie an argument as Nero himselfe was naughtie And Chrysostome flatly confuteth this cauill of the Princes person Neque enin de quouis c. For neyther I speake now sayth he of any one of the Princes but of the matter itselfe And againe Propterea non dicit non enim princeps est c. VVherefore hee sayth not there is no Prince but of God but he disputeth of the matter it selfe saying there is no power but of god The powers that are they are from God â–ª As when any wise man sayth that the woman is knit of God vnto the man he sayth no other thing thaÌ„ that God hath ordeyned mariage not that euery man how so euer he dwelleth togither with a woman is ioyned vnto him of God for we see many dwelling togither in euill not according to the lawes of mariage which yet notwithstanding we impute not vnto God. This cauillation therefore how naughtie soeuer the Prince were restraineth not the Apostles meaning which tendeth to the office and not to the person least of all to those present persons then liuing For were they neuer so wicked other were good that knew the dutie of their estate gouernment exercising it both in the direction of vertues punishment of vices as well of the first as of the seconde table this your self haue confessed to be the dutie of Princes and why had it not bene Neroes duetie to And I praye you what lacketh this of all ecclesiasticall causes the vertues and vices of the first and seconde table But ye thinke to escape with this your common exception saying And yet in temporall and ciuill matters I graunt we ought to be subiect not only to Christians but euen to infidels also being our Princes without anye exception of Apostle Euangelist Prophete Priest or Monke as ye alleage out of Chrysostome And doe you thinke thus in déede M. St. as ye saye and shall we haue any better holde of you in your graunt once again be it euen but for temporall ciuil matters And yet this fayleth much of that ye graunted before of the first as well as of the second table Be Princes the Clergies superiors now Before ye sayds that Princes should take to much vpon them to thinke themselues ecclesiasticall persons superiors speaking simply of superiours without your distinction of ciuill and temporall or spirituall and ecclesiasticall matters But sée M. St. what ye haue grauÌ„ted here It is not vnknown to you that the Pope in no case can abide no not for ciuill and temporall matters to be subiect to any Christian Prince or Emperour but contendeth euen therein also to be the farre superiour and weareth thrée crownes where the Emperour weareth but one and that one he hath set on turned off with his foote and made him kisse his foote and troad
them master Stapleton till ye set them downe I thinke they will all come in the ende to the effect of this sentence here so often by all yourside alleaged Ye cite Chrysostome as though it were at the full Where in déede ye cut off both the heade the middle and taile of his sentence whereby considering the occasion and purpose of his wordes we might sée that they shoulde not be wrested from his meaning Chrysostome vpon these wordes of the Prophet Esay Factum est anno quo mortuâ—…s est Ozias rex It came to passe in the yere that king Ozias died after a Preface made of Priestes mariage taking occasion of the Prophet Esays wife telleth of Ozias presumption Uerum hic Ozias c. but this Ozias when he was a crowned King bicause he was iust waxed hawtie in minde and conceyuing a greater courage than was for his estate entred into the temple And what sayth Esay He entred into the holy of holies and sayde I will offer incense He being a King vsurpeth the principalitie of the priesthood I will sayth he offer incense bicause I am iust But abide within thy bounds And so Chrysostome procéedeth in the sentence cited by you Alij sunt termini The boundes of a kingdome of a priesthood are not al one c. Which sentence ye truly cite til ye come to these wordes VVhen I say to me I vnderstand a priest And there ye strike of mâ—… words of Chrysostam than ye cited Which belike ye do for two purposes Partly for that ye could not abide to heare of any vices or discommendation in priests therfore ye cull out only that which soundeth to their praise dignitie Partly for that this would haue made the purpose of Chrysost playner reprouing them that disâ—…erne not betwene the office the persoÌ„ At which fault your self so late did stuÌ„ble in princes not discerning between Neroes vices a princes office As in Chrysostoms time same despised the office of a priest bicause of the faults of diuerse priests The wordes of Chrysostome folowing those you cite are these Therefore when thou seest an vnworthie priest slaunder not the priesthod For thou oughtest not to coÌ„demne the things but him that euill vseth a good thing Syth Iudas also was a traytor howbeit for this the order Apostolical is not accused but the mind of him Neither is it the fault of the priesthood but of the euill mind And thou therfore blame not the priesthod but the priest that vseth euill a good thing For if one dispute with thee and say seest thou yonder Christianâ—… answere thou but I speak not to thee of the persons but of the things or else how many phisitions haue bene made slaughtermen haue giuen poisons for remedies And yet I dispise not the arte but him that euill vseth the arte How many shipmeÌ„ haue guided euill their ships yet is not the arte of sayling euill but the mind of them If the Christian man be wicked accuse not thou the profession the priesthood but him that euill vseth a good thing These are Chrysostomes wordes which you omit and then followeth as you recite Regâ—… corpora c. The bodies are coÌ„mitted to the king and so forth as ye say til ye come to the knitting vp of the sentence with Ozias which again you omit VeruÌ„ rex c. But that king going beyond his bounds and passing the measure of the kingdom atteÌ„pted to adde somwhat more and entred into the temple willing with authoritie to offer incense VVhat therfore sayth the priest It is not lawfull for thee Ozias to offer incense Behold libertie behold a mind that knoweth not boÌ„dage behold a tong touching the heauens behold liberty that cannot be restrained behold the body of a maÌ„ the mind of an angel behold one that goeth on the grouÌ„d is coÌ„uersant in heaueÌ„ Thou sawest a king thou sawest not a diademe Tel not me it is a kingdom where is the transgression of lawes It is not lawful for thee O king to offer inceÌ„se It is not lawful for thee to come into the holy of holies Thou passest thy bouÌ„ds thou sekest things not grauÌ„ted to thee therfore shalt leese the things thou hast receiued It is not lawful for thee to offer inceÌ„se but this is giuen vnto the priests This is not thine but this is mine haue I vsurped on me thy purple vsurpe not thou my priesthod It is not lawful for thee to offer inceÌ„sâ—… but only for the sons of AaroÌ„ By this it plainly appeareth wherevpon Chrysost. speaketh to wete of the seuerall functions of the spirituall pastor and the prince and that it is not lawfull for the prince to intrude himself into the office of the diuine minister He may not more take vpoÌ„ him to administer the diuine sacraments of christ his church now although he be the prince to the which not with standing you admitted womeÌ„ thaÌ„ might Ozias sacrifice then For as then God had appoynted who should sacrifice so hath he apointed who should now minister his sacrameÌ„ts Now if ye had shewed that the supreme gouernment ouer ecclesiasticall causes the ouersight and direction of the setting forth of Gods true religion the abolishing of false religion and the deposing of Idolatrous Priestes that obsâ—…inately mainteyne errours agaynst the expresse worde of God be the like doing to this fact of Ozias if ye had proued that the Prince hath euer done or doth or claymeth to do the like fact to this of Ozias in ministring the sacrament then had you alleaged this sentence to some purpose else maketh it nothing to the purpose but maketh agaynst your popish mid wiues they rather play the part of Ozias It maketh not agaynst the Q. Maiestie but most of all against your Pope himselfe that thinketh he playth the high priests part and is so farre therfrom that none is more like than he to this vsurper entring into the holyest place and vsurping the priesthood the sacrifice the power and the honour that belongeth onely to Iesus Christe himselfe As for the office of the true minister of God which neyther your Pope nor you his shaâ—…elings arâ—… is in déede as Chrysostom sayth both a distinct function from the princes and hath other boundes and also we graunt surmounteth farre the boundes of the Princes office in respect of his spirituall ministerie of administring the sacraments of preaching the glad tydings of saluation of denouncing to the obstinate sinners the threates of Gods wrath and vengeance to the penitent the most comfortable promises of Gods mercie fauour whose sentence being rightly applyed in earth God hath promised to ratifie the same in heauen And for this cause doth Chrysost â–ª so highly extoll this priesthood referring all his prayses to the dignitie of his ministerie in respect whereof the Princes ministeris is but outwarde and earthly medling nothing with the administration of this high function but onely with the
commendations these vertues so highly coÌ„mended are both a goodly and godly president for all Princes to set before them Thus much therefore to the former winde of your counterblast Now to the later which after all these long discourses draweth somewhat néerer to the matter in admitting the authour Nicephorus his testimonies and the Emperours doings and answering to the Bishops allegations thereon The effect whereof is to improue all that is alleaged as insufficient to inferre this supremacie And it is quartred into foure partes Firste prâ—…supposing this Prince to be Andronicus all 〈◊〉 doing about to be the reuoking of Michâ—…els yelding to the Pope at the Councell at Lions he 〈◊〉 to proue that not 〈◊〉 but the Priestes though wicked had the chiefe â—…uperioritie Secondly he 〈◊〉 against the gathering and sorting of the Bishops 〈◊〉 Thirdly he entreth into the inualiditie of the allegacions And fourthly here vpon he maketh his triumph and 〈◊〉 thanks for the victorie In the first parcell sayeth M. Stapleton But now M. Horne what if these hereticall doyngs do nothing releeue your cause nor necessarily induce the chiefe superioritie in all causes and perchaunce in no cause Ecclesiasticall concerning the finall discussing and determination of the same verily without any perchaunce it is most plainly and certainely true it doth not For euen in this Schismaticall councell and hereticall fynagog the Bishops played the chiefe parte and they gaue the finall though a wrong and a wicked iudgement VVho also shewed their superioritie though vngodly vppon this mans Father in that they would not suffer him to be enterred Princelike them selues much more worthy to haue bene cast after their decease to the Dogges and Rauens vppon â—… durtie doonghill What those Priests were worthie we haue your worthie iudgement M. Stapleton whereby we perceiue your Priests can erre although they be Massemongers and by your former sayings Reuerent worshippers of Images too But all will not helpe they are adiudged to be cast on a dâ—…rtje doonghill to be deuoured of Dogges and Raues bicause they would not suffer â–ª Michael Paleologus their Emperour who notwithstanding intruded him selfe by violence to be enterred Prince like I pray you M. Stap. be an vpright iudge What then are those Priests much more worthy that would not suffer their liuing Princes to vse their princely authoritie what are those Popes more worthie â–ª that haue not onely not suffred their predecessours to be enâ—…orted Pope like but haue pulled them out of the ground againe and hacked and mangled them What are those prelates worthie that haue caused the Priestes and the people to renounce their obedience to their sworne Princes I thinke ye will not say these should be â–ª call out on durtie doonghils and yet their faulte is as much as the other it is to be feared least they shal be cast out into vtter darkenesse â–ª But ye do a little to much charge the Gréeke Priestes with the whole burden of this crime It was not onely they as Uolaterane saith but it was the whole nation as Baptist Egnatius writeth as is also noted in Laugus his margine Ex qua tuntam â—…nuidiam â–ª c. VVherevppon he gotte so great enuie of the Greeke notion that neither they performed the obsequies of the dead also denied him the place of his Sepulchre But you applie it onely vnto the Priestes that their superioritie might the more appeare For which purpose you direct all your tale to sette foorth their superioritie euen in such as ye call wicked and hereticall doings whereas the Princes claime is not for any such superioritie in wicked doings but onely in Godly and Christian causes Ye driue all the matter to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the holy Ghosts proceeding and to Andronicus cealing therein against the dealing of his Father In 〈◊〉 thus do the last editions of Nicephorus Printed at Paris 1562. and 1566. whether truely or no is doubtfull to say referre al to Andronicus and euer in the place of Emaâ—…el put Andronicus and for driâ—…ing away of the Turkes put in the anulling of the doings at Lions Councell Which sentence soeuer be the truer either the former which the Bishop followed or the later which you follow yet caÌ„ you not go so round away with the matter but that euen Michael which yéelded to the Pope mangre all his Priestes and made them perforce while he liued to acknowledge the Pope shewed therein a superioritie â—…uer them which I thinke ye will not call a tiranâ—…y 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gaue it ouer to the Pope And his sonne in doing the contrarie euen in the Councell ye mention sheweth also a supreme dealing therein And that supreme dealing that you most stiffly denie to Princes to wâ—…te the calling of Councels the Patriarch did it not but the Prince 〈◊〉 as your selfe haâ—… confessed before that he after his Fathers death suâ—…moned a Councell of the Grecians And so sayeth Langus in the Margine of the Preface Imperatoriâ—… istius ductu c. By the guydance of this Emperour in the Councell the Easterne Bishops contrarie to the Westerne decreed that the holy Ghost proceeded onely from the Father But not long after by his Nephewe Iohn Paleologus being Emperour in the Synode at Florence holden in the yeere of the Lorde 1439. the Grecians accorded to the determination of the Latines in so much that they professed the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne when they were perswaded that the Latines beleeued God the Father to be the onely cause of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost and that they accursed the being of twoo beginnings or two causes in the consubstantiall Trinitie Which sentâ—…nce as it sheweth the 〈◊〉 to be called by the 〈◊〉 â–ª so it sheweth the cause of the Gréekes diâ—…ision 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 in this 〈◊〉 aboute which here and in your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…e make so much a do to haue bene rather of misunderstanding the one of the other than any such 〈◊〉 â–ª as ye here â—…o often charge them â—…aunder Niâ—…phorus reâ—…ite this Prince and afterwardes 〈◊〉 â—…o vs also And withall it sheweth that this controuâ—…rsie was not so much tho matter betweene them as was the reâ—…enting vnto the Popes obedience which the Greeke Church could neuer abide and to say the sooth they of all other had chiefe cause â–ª for the Pope was the chiefe ruine 〈◊〉 their Empirâ—… But to returne to my purpose In this Councell the Prince hath this point of supremacâ—…e that he sumâ—…oned and guided it â–ª which M â–ª Stapleton espying dareth not fully affirme â–ª that thiâ—… doing maketh â—…atly againste the Princes supremacie but he cometh fâ—…intly in with what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you 〈◊〉 And what if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shalt we 〈◊〉 haue larkes â–ª what 〈◊〉 â—…id â–ª phie on Deuill with his shifting if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thou be the 〈◊〉 of God. And what if it do not necessarily enduce the chiefe supeâ—… in all causes
the truth in this poynt and in so manie other Where in yée shew your selfe not onely discontented subiectes but in heart verie rebellions nor repining onely with discontented stomackes but with open sayings writings and other seditions attemptes agaynst the obedience ye owe to our gracious Prince and Countrey Ye call hir gracious but God defende hir gracious person from your vngracious practises and from all such Iudas kisses of hollow hearted flattring Papistes For howe vngraclously ye minde hir highnesse and your Countrey all that heare your sugred wordesnowe speaking as though that butter would not melt in your mealy mouth and read your common place withall collected of your most shamefull and notorious slaunders that ye rayse vpon so gracious a prince and your natiue Countrey would meruayle how that dubble tongue of yours coulde speake such contraries But ye are a Merchant for the nonce ye studie Louaine diuinitie that is to say to beare fire in one hand water in another to laugh in ones face and strike him with a dagger to the heart as Ioab did with Abner and Amasa But let vs sée how trimly ye cloke this geare I dare say neuer a Frier in Louaine can play the sinoother hypocrite For besides say you that we ought absolutely to obey God more than man and preferre the truth which our sauiour him selfe protesteth to be encouraging all the faythfull to professe the truth and giuing them to wit that in defending that they defende Christ himselfe before all other worldly respectes whatsoeuer What a godly pretence of zeale is here to God were it not for pure loue they heare to God master Stapleton promiseth for them as theyr spokes man they would obey their Prince Nowe surely this séemeth to procéede of an holy zeale But what is that they meane here by this absolute obedience to God God may be absolutely obeyed and the Prince also next to God conditionally be obeyed as the chiefe setter foorth of Gods absolute obedience God in his holie worde neuer spake any thing against obedience to the Prince whereby any Hypocrite might pretende a scruple of disobeying God if next vnder God he obeyed his Prince but God in his worde commaundeth vs so to obey him What meane they then to alleage God for theyr disobedience Forsooth here is a mystery ye must vnderstande by God the Pope for so he is called Dominus deus noster Papa Our Lorde God the Pope ▪ and their obedience to the Prince herein is flatte agaynst this Gods obedience And bicause master Stapleton and his fellowes are priests of this Gods making they must therefore disobey theyr Prince And this is the very matter So Thomas Becked died for Gods cause and what was that forsooth the franchisies of the Popes Church For all that is for the Pope and Popery and the Popish priests honours is only for God for Christ and for the truth when it is for the Deuill as soone as indéede it is for him the Authour of all such hypocriticall disobedience and for their owne filthie lucre But God is a good God he must beare the name of all ▪ The Papistes being thus by theyr Attourney master Stapleton excused of theyr Disobedience least this shoulde not be thought sufficient There is yet behinde one other proper waye of excusing themselues and that is to fall in accusing the Bishop that therby the papists may be thought the more excusable Beside all this I say sayth master Stapleton whosoeuer will but indifferently consider the matter shall see that M. Horne himselfe in specifying here at large the Queenes Maiesties gouernment by the statute intended doth no lesse in effect abridge the same by dissembing silence than the Catholikes doe by open and plaine contradiction Ye charge the B. here with abridging the Queenes Maiesties gouernement by dissembling silence This is your former quarrell M. Stap. yet could ye hitherto proue nothing omitted concerning the verie gouernment it selfe and therefore ye wrangled about other clauses of debarring the gouernement from any foreine person and of vniting the gouernment to the crowne of Englande which bicause the B. set not downe as parcels of the gouernment which ech man séeth are none ye chalenge him of dissembling silence and do as one that either hath nothing else to saye or that this is some such notable triumph that ye thought good to end your first booke therewith as it were a gyrde to the Bishop and a pricke fastened in the Readers minde to cause him mislyke of the Bishops dealing and suspect the whole cause thereby This indéede were somewhat oratorlyke if it were not so apparant an vntruth that euery body might behold the falshood therof the malice of you and the impertinencie of the quarrell But as you thereby are able crie it out as fast and as lowde as ye will to proue nothing in word or déede against the Bishop and therefore run to byous quarrels of silence and abridging in effect so your selfe while ye would excuse your selfe as not discontented nor repining subiectes accuse your selfe without any dissembling at all And are not ashamed to confesse that ye withstande hir Maiesties gouernment by open and plaine contradiction Though therefore your accusation of the Bishop be to any indifferent man to consider the matter no excuse of your disobedience yet any that shall indifferently consider the matter yea though he were som what partiall on your side sith so openly and plainely ye dare open your contradiction thereto will holde you altogither vnexcusable and iudge you on your owne mouth But let vs sée why ye are thus importune with the Bishop to accuse him so often nowe in the ende of this booke whether ye haue any newe matter to lay to his charge that ye haue not yet vttred how truly ye accuse him For say you whereas the statute and the othe to the which all must sweare expresseth a supreme gouernment in all things and causes without exception M. Horne taking vpon him to specifie the particulars of this generall decree and amplifying that little which he giueth to the Queenes Maiestie with copie of wordes full statutelike he leaueth yet out and by that leauing out taketh from the meaning of the statute the principall cause ecclesiasticall ▪ And what is that you aske forsooth iudgement determining and approuing of doctrine which is true and good and which is otherwise For what is more necessarie in the Church than that the supreme gouernour thereof shoulde haue power in all doubtes and controuersies to decide the truth and to make an ende of questioning this in the statute by M. Hornes silence is not comprised And yet who doubteth that of all things and causes ecclesiasticall this is absolutely the chiefest Why M. St. are ye nowe of a contrarie opinion to that if ye be remembred that ye were before for then ye reasoned that omission and silence was no deniall but concluded the contrarie Qui
to make an ende of questioning This in the statute by master Hornes silence is not comprised True in déede M. Stapl. this kinde of iudgement is not mentioned by the Bishop â–ª but it is moste falsly mentioned by you For where ye say this in the statute moste maliciously ye slaunder the statute for this in the statute is neither named comprised or can be gathered thereon Neither the Quéenes Maiestie claymeth or taketh on hir this kinde of iudgement It is due onely to Gods worde and your Pope and popishe Churche violently snatcheth it from Gods worde chalenging it to them selues euen aboue Gods worde it selfe although they agrée not héerein togither For the popishe Churche will be aboue the Pope in thys poynt of iudgement maugre his bearde and yet they graunt the Pope to be their supreme gouernour ecclesiasticall Though they will not relent to him this supreme iudgement but giue it to the Churches iudgement And therefore they be of a contrarie iudgement to you that say this poynt is moste necessarie meete and conuenient for a supreme gouernour ecclesiastical By which poynt you wil make your Pope either no supreme gouernour eccl ouer you or spoyle him of a most necessarie meete and couenient poynt of the supreme gouernment that ye giue him but these are your iarres agrée as ye wil like cats in a glitter about theÌ„ This popish churches or papall iudgement the Q. Maiestie taketh not vpon hir nor the statute ascribeth it vnto hir and therefore the B. had nought to do therewith Yet haue we one thing more which after a couple of your slauÌ„ders that I answere not but referre to your common place thereon ye charge the Bishop once more for this omission Agayne say you preaching the worde administration of the sacraments bynding and loosing â–ª are they not things and causes eccl How then are they heere omitted by you master Horne or how make you the supreme gouernment in all causes to rest vpon the Queenes Maiestie if these causes haue no place there What should a man vse many words with suche a brabler who though he haue nought to say yet will neuer lâ—…e saying of that which is nought to purpose Ye have beene often inough and fully inoughe answered to this master St. if the Quéenes Maiestie taketh not these thinges vpon hir then the B. omitteth not any thing that hir highnesse taketh on hir in omitting these things Neither doth the â–ª sratute yéelde vnto hir the doing of them It is but your slaunderous obtruding of the statute It giueth a supreme gouernmeÌ„t in al these things to the Q. Maiestie And so these causes haue place there so farre as is néedful to a supreme gouernour But from a supreme gouernour which consisteth in caring for ordering directing prouiding guyding maynteining setting foorth to the executing doing preaching and administring of those things is as farre from any good conclusion as you your matter are farre from truthe and honestie Neuerthelesse such is your great coÌ„fidence in this your Counterblast as though ye had so puft vp the falshood therof that no man could espie it ye lustely blowe vp the last blast of this your first booke saying VVhich is nowe better I appeale to all good consciences playnly to maynteine the truthe than dissemblingly to vphold a falsshod playnly to refuse the othe so generally conceiued than generally to sweare to it beeing not generally meaned â–ª But nowe let vs see how M. Horne wyll direct his proufes to the scope appoynted Why may not you appeale to all good consciences M. Stap. as well as that mayden Priest of yours that mighte bidde his maydenhead Goodmorrowe and haue as good a conscience for your owne parte as he for his parte had a maydenhead And to shew your good conscience for a farewell while ye shake handes at the very parting ye lash â–ª out a couple of slaunderous vntruthes togither Ye haue not many words to speake and therfore ye huddle them vp You say the othe is conceiued so generally that it giueth to the Prince your foresayde absolute power of determining all doubts and controuersies of preaching the worde administration of the sacraments bynding and loosing This lie to lappe vp all in the ende was worthe a whetstone M. Stapl. and his fellowe that iutteth with him chéeke by chéeke is as good as he That the othe generally conceyued is not generally meaned But set aside your malitious meaning to wrest the othe and the othe is playne and all one bothe in wordes and meaning But howe soeuer the othe were not so generally conceiued your meaning is playnely to refuse the othe And therefore héere in the ende for a remembraunce to all the rest you must néedes strike vp the stroke with ala lia and desperatly without al dissembling for the matter vpholde a falshoode with falshoodes euen to the laste breathe Et fiunt nouissima illius hominis peiora prioris And the latter ende of that man is worsse than the beginning ¶ The answere to foure Chapters in Doctor Saunders seconde booke of the visible Monarchie of the Churche concerning the question here in hande of a Christian Princes supreme gouernment in Ecclesiasticall causes First of the difference of both povvers the ciuill and Ecclesiastical in the original in the vse and in the end of eyther Secondly vvhether the Prince be the Supreme gouernour immediatly vnder Christ. Thirdly vvhether the Prince may iudge and define of ecclesiasticall matters Fourthly whether Bishops maye depose Princes from their estate and take from the realme their povver of electing their Prince if they differ in religion from their Bishops VVhich foure chapters I thought good here to answere vnto both bicause he is the last writer and chiefest novve of accompte among the aduersaries And these chapters aboue al other in his volume both draw neerest to the question of the Princes estate and shew vvithall the full drift of the Papists not only striuing agaynst the Princes supremacie but into vvhat extreme slauerie they vvould reduce all Christian Kinges and kingdomes The argument of the fyrst Chapter of the difference betweene the Ciuile and Ecclesiasticall Magistrate in the originall in the vse and in the ende of bothe MAster Saunders firste beginning with the original lconfesseth that both powers are of God but not both immediatly from God the ciuile power he granteth to be of God but by the lawe of Nations or the consent of people and other meanes of mans wit put betweene But streight he correcteth himselfe that some thing in the ciuill authoritie was reuealed immediatly from God yea Per multa in lege Mosaica diuinitus instituta suerunt verie manie things pertaining to the ciuill power were in Moses law ordeyned of God. And thus at the fyrst he speaketh contraries Herevpon he concludeth thus I thinke therfore it is agreed vpon among all men that the royal imperial power which at this day is exercised in
the church in euery cause wherof it is not otherwise disposed in the new testament is to be holden of the law of nations or of lawe ciuil To this I answer First this in part is true but in part so false that himself confutes himself making exceptioÌ„ of diuers things in the ciuill power that sproong immediatly froÌ„ God neither were those things as he falsly saithe Circa res terrenas about earthly matters but about ecclesiasticall matters in the law of Moyses And although their ceremonial causes and iudicials pertayning to ecclesiasticall matters in the ciuil power be taken away with the ceremoniall and indiciall lawe of the Iewes yet the ciuil power hath like authoritie in the like causes ecclesiastical of the new testameÌ„t as is shewed out of S. Aug. against M. St. the Donatistes Secondly where he sayeth all the ciuil power nowe of christian kings and Emperors is all of the law of nations or ciuil except in cases otherwise disposed in the new testament I answer this may well be graunted and yet the ciuil power hath authoritie ouer ecclesiasticall persons in causes ecclesiastical for so not only in the old testament but also in the newe Testament it is playnly disposed Thirdly to this diuision of the original of both these estates that the ecclesiastical is from God immediatly the ciuil by other meanes I answere this distinction faileth both by his own tale saying Ciuilis à deo plerunque est per media quaedam the ciuil power is oftentimes from God by certain meanes If it be oftentimes by certaine meanes then it is not alwayes and but accidentall not of the nature of the estate for so it is also immediatly from God. And the like accident falleth out likewise of the ecclesiastical estate that although the power be immediatly from God yet many causes in it called Ecclesiastical be also Per media quadam humani ingenij interposita by certain meanes of mans wit put betwene For this cause sayth M. sand the ciuil power among the heathen that know not god is found to be the same that is extant with faithful kings although Christ wold not haue such power in the ministers of his kingdom for he said the Princes of the nations rule ouer them and they that are iuniors exercise power ouer them so shall it not be among you I answere first Maister Saunders this is a like slander to M. Stapletons fo 29. a. b. The ciuil power is not found to be the same in heathen Princes that knowe not God and in Christian Princes that know God there is a very great difference betwene these so different estates wherin the one acknowledgeth all his power to be of God and hath it described and limited by Gods word the other takes it al for hu main naturall not so much as knowing God by your own confession from whome the originall of it springeth Secondly to that you saye suche power is debarred by Christe from his ministers If yée meane by suche power suche power as is among the Heathen suche is not onely debarred from them but from christian Princes too If ye meane suche power as Christian Princes haue is debarred from the ministers of Christ then say ye true But howe then dothe youre Pope chalenge and vsurpe bothe suche and the same also Yea your selfe afterwarde reason moste earnestly thoroughout all the fourth chapter following that the ministers of Christe may haue it Wherin ye speak cleane contrary both to Christ and to your self Thirdly I note this eyther youre grosse ignoraunce or your impudent falshood in altering the wordes of Christe He sayth not they that are iuniors or yongers the Texte is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they that are great whiche are cleane contrarie If M. Stapleton were your aduersarie he would rattle ye vp Master Saunders for so foule a scape Nowe to fortifie a difference betwéene the Ecclesiastical power and the Ciuill he vrgeth that the spiritual kingdom of Christ is in this worlde but not of this worlde as for the earthly kingdome is bothe in and of this world but the ecclesiasticall power is the spirituall kingdome of Christ therfore there is a difference but the spirituall kingdom of Christ excelleth all worldlyâ—… kingdomes therfore they are stark fooles that in any ecclesiasticall thing to be administred preferre the earthly kings before the pastors of the Churche I answere all these conclusions are impertinent If there be any follie it is to striue for that that is not in controuersie We graunt a difference betwixt both powers and kingdomes althoughe a question is to be moued what he meaneth here by ecclesiasticall power If he take it as the Papistes do we denie that ecclesiasticall power to be the spiritual kingdome of Christ. For their ecclesiasticall power is ouermuch not in the worlde but of the worlde also If he meane by ecclesiasticall power the spirituall kingdome of Christ as he in his word hath ordeyned the fame although there be a difference betwene the power in the kingdom and the kingdome in the which the power is yet we graunt this gladly that no wise man will preferre the earthly kings in any spiritual thing to be administred before the pastors of the churche But this is nothing againste the earthly kings preferment ouer the spirituall pastor to ouersée him rightly and spiritually to administer his spirituall things in the ministration whereof all earthly kings oughte to giue place vnto him which we did neuer denie And sith there is no comparison betwene Christ the sonne of God who is also God himself and a creature of the law natural or ciuill neither is there any comparison betwixt the power ecclesiastical which is wholly giue vnto vs by only Christ the mediator the power royall which either altogether or almost altogether is not ordeined of God but by the lawe of nations or ciuill for although God hath reuealed froÌ„ heauen that belongeth to the power royall if notwithstandyng that pertained not to eternall saluation which is hid in Christ but to contein peace among men that is to be reckned to be reuealed no otherwise than to be a certain declaration which he had grafted in vs by Nature or else euen necessitie ought to haue wroong out of vs or profite according to the seedes of nature ought to haue brought to light I answere first we graunt that the ecclesiastical power not as the Papists stretche it but as it is giuen vnto vs by only Christ the mediator is farre superior without all comparison than the royal power of Princes Howbeit this hindreth not but as the ministers are mediators thereof to vs the royall power of Princes hath againe an other superior gouernment to ouersée that there be no other ecclesiasticall power exercised by the mediation of the Minister than Christ the only mediator hath ordeyned And to remoue all popish â—…oysting in giuing vs quid pro quo whiche when
force of his royall power oâ—… else a woman also might bothe teache in the Churche and also remitte sinnes and baptise orderly and solemnly and minister the sacrament of thankesgiuing For sithe bothe by the lawe of nations it is receyued that a woman may be admitted to the gouernment of a kingdome and in Moses lawe it is written when a man shall dye without a sonne the enheritance shall passe to the daughter but a kingdome commeth among many nations in the name of enheritaÌ„ce And sithe Debora the Prophetesse iudged the people of Israell and also Athalia and Alexandra haue reigned in Iurie it appeareth playnly that the kingly right appertayneth no lesse to women than to men VVhich also is to be sayde of children bicause according to the Apostle the heire though he be a childe is Lorde of all And Ioas began to raygne when he was seuen yere olde and Iosias reigned at the eight yere of his age But a childe for the defecte of iudgement a woman for the imbecillitie of hir kinde is not admitted to the preaching of Gods worde or to the solemne administration of the Sacraments I permit not sayth the Apostle a woman to teache For it is a shame for a woman to speake in the Churche and the same Apostle sayth that the heire being a childe diffreth nothing from a seruant But it is not the ecclesiasticall custome that he which remayneth yet a seruaunt shoulde be a minister of the Churche Sith therefore in the right of a kingdome the cause is all one of a man of a woman and of a childe but of like causes there is like and all one iudgement but neither childe nor woman and therevpon neither man also that is nothing else but king can do those things in his kingdome which of other ministers of the churche of God are necessarily to be done therfore it commeth to passe that neither the same king can rightly be called the supreme gouernour and head of the Church wherin he liueth All this long argument standeth stil on the foresayd principle that a supreme head or gouernour must be such a person as may do all the actions of all the offices belonging to all the parties gouerned But this is a false principle as alredy is manifestly declared therfore al this long driuen argument is to no purpose The Prince for all this may stil be the supreme head or gouernour ouer all Ecclesiastical persons so well as temporall in all their ecclesiasticall causes so well as in temporall although he himselfe can not exercise all ecclesiasticall functions nor doe himselfe all the ecclesiasticall actions of all ecclesiastical persons For else he might also be debarred of all supremacie ouer all ciuill and temporall persons in all their ciuill and temporall causes bicause he can not himselfe exercise all the ciuil and temporall offices nor do himselfe all the ciuill and temporall actions of all the ciuill and temporall persons neyther And so shoulde â—…e cleane be debarred from supremacie in either power nor haue any supreme gouernment at all Nowe taking this your false principle pro confesso â–ª after your wonted maner ye would driue vs to an absurditie as ye suppose by bringing in more examples of a woman and a chyld reasoning thus A pari from the like A woman and a child may be as well a supreme gouernor as may a man and hath as good right thereto But a woman or a childe can not be a supreme gouernour in causes Ecclesiasticall Ergo A man can not be a supreme gouernour neither in causes Ecclesiasticall For to this conclusion the force of bothe the promisses naturally driueth the argument I know ye clap in a paire of parenthesis saying in your coÌ„clusion neither a man also that is nothing else but a king But sith these wâ—…r des ar neither in the maior nor the minor the coÌ„clusion is plain â–ª that a man can not be a Supreme gouernor in causes Ecclesiasticall And I pray ye then tell me who shall be the supreme gouernour in ecclesiasticall causes if neyther man woman nor chyld may be wherby are not only excluded ciuill Princes but youre Popes are debarred from it Pope Ioane and Pope Iohn also For if they vse that order in the election to haue a Cardinall féele that all be safe yf the Uersicle be sayde Testiculos habet howe can the quyre meryly syng in the responce Deo gratias If hée be founde to bée a man he can not be supreme gouernoure Maister Saunders therefore muste néedes mende thys argumente or else the Popes for whome he writes this boke wyl con him small thanks except that they be Eunuches But Master Saunders not marking the sequele of hys conclusion fortifieth the parts of his argument To confirme the maior A woman and a childe may be as wel a supreme gouernour as a man he citeth the lawe Num. 27. he citeth ensamples Debora Athalia and Alexandra for women For children he citeth the Apostle Gal. 4. and the ensamples of Ioas and Iosias But these proues are superfluous sith the controuersie is not on the maior but on the minor Which minor is the point in controuersie and denied of vs that a woman or a childe can not be a supreme gouernour in causes ecclesiastical To confirme this minor for a woman he alleageth that she can not be admitted to preache the woorde of God remit sinnes nor baptize orderly and solemnely nor administer the Lordes Supper bothe for the imbecillitie of hir kinde and for Saint Paules prohibition of teaching in the Church For a chyld he lykewise can not do the same things as well for defect of iudgement in his nonage as for Sainte Paules witnesse that he differs not from a seruant But the Churches vse is not for seruantes to doe these things and so not for children to do them Here for confirmation of his minor master Sanders rusâ—…s to his false former principle that if the woman the chyld be supreme gouernors in these things then muste they be able themselues to do these things But they cannot do these thinges themselues Ergo they can haue no supreme gouernmeÌ„t in them But this reason is alreadie taken away and therfore al this argumeÌ„t falles We graunt it is true that neither women nor children can do these things And therfore the Papistes are to blame that suffer women to bapatize and to saye or sing in theyr quyres theyr ordinarie seruice and reade the Lessons Wee graunte them also that no men neyther but suche as bée lawfully called therevnto maye themselues exercise and do these things but doth this fellow they may not therfore haue a gouernment ouer those that doo them in their orderly doing of them if this were true then take away all their gouernement ouer all lay persons and all ciuil causes too For neyther women can nor ought them selues to do all that men béeing their subiects can and ought to
estate being higher and so high that God reserued it to himselfe they distrusted the former estate as inferior and desired a visible king among them So that this which you wold draw to the dispraise maketh in deede more to the praise of a kings estate Neither do we denie Gregories sentence in respect of the spirituall prelacie but the question nowe is of the outwarde gouernment of Priests or Princes Which Gregorie not onely acknowledged with most humble obedience calling the Emperour and kings of Italy his Lords soueraignes and lowly bowed himselfe vnto them but also that more is so much detested the claime that the Pope makes now that he calleth the vser of it a fore runner of Antichrist And where ye haue this shift that he condemnes such titles of vniuersal Prelacie in the sea of other Bishoppes but not of his owne this is a false shifte he condemnes it in hys owne Bishopricke of Rome so well as in anye other For where Eulogius the Patriarke of Alexandria had saluted him with suche stiles he answereth Ecce in praefatione c. Beholde in the preface of the Epistle the which you directed vnto me who forbad it ye thought to set in the word of a proud calling naming me vniuersall Pope the which I beseeche you that your most curteous holinesse wil no more do so Bicause that which is giueÌ„ to another more thaÌ„ reaâ—…oÌ„ requireth is subtracted from your selues I seeke not to be aduaunced in titles but in maners Neither counte I that honour wherein I know my brethren leese their honour For my honour is the honour of the vniuersall Churche My honour is the sounde force of my brethren TheÌ„ am I honored wheÌ„ to euery particular person the honor that is due vnto him is not denyed For if your holynesse call me vniuersall Pope he denyeth himselfe to be in that he calleth me vniuersall but God forbid this Let those wordes goe that puffe vp truth and wounde charitie Thus sayth Gregorie and this is cited euen in your owne decrées not onely about the word Vniuersall Pope but vpon these titles Princeps SacerdotuÌ„ vel summus sacerdos the chief of the priests or the chiefe or high priest or any other such titles So farre was this Pope Gregorie then from the pride of the late Pope Gregories that haue bene since for he both acknowledged himselfe to be but equall to other Bishoppes and him selfe and all other Byshops to be vnder their naturall Princes The testimonie therefore of Pope Gregorie is but wrested to vrge suche superioritie of Byshoppes as shoulde deâ—… their Princes supreme gouernmente Now M. Saunders hauing thus as he thinketh fully confyrmed his proues for the superioritie of Priests in the olde Testamente abouâ—… Kings gathereth altogether and knites vp hys conclusion saying VVherefore sithe the institution of Priests proceeded from the good wyll of God and from his free mercie but God graunted not the dignitie of a king but in his anger at the peoples petition lesser consideration is worthily had of the king than of the people both bicause he is made king onely for the peoples cause and also onely at the peoples petition But the Priests although they be made for the peoples cause yet neither onely for the peoples cause but muche more for the honour of Christe Neither onelye at the petition of the people were they made but rather of the free mercie of God and that for that eternall predestination of God whiche was ordayned aboute oure saluation in the tyme appoynted to be brought to effect Ye make your comparison and your conclusion hang illâ—…oredly together Maister Saunders your comparison is of the Princes and the Priests estate and ye conclude that therefore lesse consideration is worthily to be had of the king than of the people How chaunce ye say not of the king than of the Priests but belike ye thoughte that that was oute of controuersie the Priests were so farre aboue the people that much lesse consideration is to be had of the people than of the priests But maister Saunders your beast sacrificed said not so nor your authors Philo and Iosephus but sayde he was made equall to the people But say you the king was made for the peoples cause I graunt ye maister Saunders and was not the priest so too yea doe not your selfe sayâ—… he was made for the peoples cause also if this then argue an inferiorship as in déede it doth in respecte of the ende doth it not argue the priest to be inferior too and lesser consideration to be had of him than of the people that is to say of the Church of God But saye you the King vvas made onely for the peoples cause and the priest was made for the honor of Christ also for the eternall predestination of God vvhich vvas ordained about saluation in time appoynted to be broughte to effect And I pray ye Maister Saunders was not this another cause of making the King also dyd not his estate make to the honour of Christe and represent Christ so well as the Priestes estate was not he called Christus Domini The Lordes annoynted so well as the Priest yea and better to then by your leaue For Christ was not onely figured in the kings estate so well as in the Priests but also toke his humanitie of the race of the kings and not of the Priests and so is called the sonne of Dauid not the sonne of Aaron the king of the Ievves not the priest of the Ievves And though in respect of his priesthoode he was the onely sacrifice of our redemption whereby our sinnes are taken away Christus mortuus est pro peccatis nostris Christ dyed for our sinnes yet notwithstanding resurrexit pro iustificatione nostra he rose for ouâ—…â—…ustification by his kingdome by his power by his victorie by his resurrection by his ascention by his sitting at the right hand of his father in al which his kingdome is contained so that it comprehendeth both our PredestinatioÌ„ and our saluation too And therefore we are taught by Christ to saye let thy kingdome come and not let thy priesthoode come And not onely all our estate in this life and the life to come but all the grace and mercie and iustice and power and glory of God is attributed not so muche to the priesthoode as to the kingdome of Christ. But ye saye God was angrie with the peoples request when he made the kings estate I graunt you Maister Saunders and tolde ye the reason before out of Lyra and the texte is plaine bicause God him selfe was king vnto them which doth not abase but so much the more aduaunce it But now when Maister Saunders hath thus extolled the Priests gouernmeÌ„t of the old TestameÌ„t he abaseth theÌ„ again by comparison of Bishops of the newe Testament saying Sith therefore the Bishops of the Churche of Christ are of no lesse dignitie than
had not deliuered vs from it and yet sée if these Papistes that can so narrowly spie and proll at euery note in king Henry and kings Edwards dayes can in Quéene Maries dayes espie anye one of these great beames that were such apparante tokens of gods wrath that all men sawe and felt what euents succeeded the refusall of this title and the yéelding it to the Pope nerehand the cleane subuersion of this Realme if we may iudge by sequels Now after Quéene Marie he comes to the Quéenes Maiestie that now God be praised most prosperously raigneth ouer vs. But vvhen very many giuen to heresies vvere offended at this notable modestie of the Queene neither vvould they yet vnderstande his Counsell in gouerning his Churche God brought to passe that Marie of happie memorie being dead the kingdome of England should deuolue to such a vvoman as novve vvriteth hir selfe The supreme gouernesse in all matters and causes asvvell ecclesiasticall as secular That yet so at the length by the successe it selfe men of hard harte and obstinate necke mighte marke hovv euill king Henry tooke this office vpon him the vvhiche of his heire and successour could not duely and orderly be fulfilled For to whom it is not permitted to teach vvhich is the most necessarie office of an ecclesiasticall Head hovv shal she performe those greater offices that are occupied in the chastisement and correction of them that ought to teache the people or shall she vvhich is vnvvorthie that she should hir selfe teache publiquely in the lovvest degree moderate and reprehend vvith lavvful authoritie other publique teachers in the highest degree or if she can not lavvfully reprehend them shall she yet be lavvfully supreme gouernesse of the Church I omit here the things that in these yeares vvhich are last passed haue bene I knovv not hovv vncomely done and preached in Englande vnder such supreme heads of the Church I spare the dignitie of theÌ„ that gouerne Another time if God vvill I vvill handle them particularly hovve greatly both from the lavve of God and from the sentence of the auncient Churche and from righte reason that state of a common vveale is farre in vvhiche any king arrogateth to himselfe the office and name of the supreme head of the Church Is your part so false and weake of proues Maister Saunders that it can win no credite but by discrediting of ours with sclaunders and yet we woulde pardon this in you ascribing it either to some passion of choler against your aduersaries or to blinde affection of your selues that ye call verie manie of vs giuen to heresies hard harted and obstinate necked which are termes fitter to muster in M. Stapletons coÌ„mon places than to stuffe vp M. doctor Saunders volumes howe they redownde vpon your selues let other iudge â–ª that will reade and view of both But if we forgiue you this for our parts shal we stil suffer you to raile vpoÌ„ sclander the Lordes annoynted saying she arrogateth to hir selfe the office and name of the supreme Head of the Church speaking at randon withoute limitation of the Churche as the Pope doth arrogate to himselfe and taketh on hir to be an ecclesiasticall head and publique teacher of other that should teach hir these are too too infamous sclauÌ„ders of hir Maiestie that claimeth no such title nor attempteth any such thing What supreme gouernement is ascribed to hir highnesse we haue tolde you a thousand times but I sée ye will not vnderstand it bicause ye would of set purpose sclander it But to knit vp your argument of the euent and sequele of the Quéenes Maiesties raigne ye say many things haue bin done and preached in England ye cannot tell hovv vnsemely â—… thinke euen the same M. Saunders ye can not tell howe â—…ndede But howe vnseemely a thing is this for one of your â—…rofession to chalenge ye cannot tell what nor howe ye set owne nothing but vnder a pretence of sparing vs to bréede â—…et a furder sclaunderous suspition ye threat vs that ye will â—…serue theÌ„ til a furder leisure that is to say ad Kalendas graecas til â—…e shall first know them and then be able to proue them in the meane seasoÌ„ ye take the wisest way to say such ther are but what they are ye cannot now tell ye wil learne theÌ„ out and tell vs another time but tell the worste ye canne ye shal neuer be able to tell of any fals doctrine preached and by the Prince approued to be preached nor of anye wicked facte allowed by publike authoritie to be done No Maister Saunders in all the Quéenes Maiesties raigne ye can neuer be able to proue any suche things but in the raigne of your Popes we can proue many such things as whordome committed and maintained murder done and maintained Idolatry vsed and maintained and infinite errors preached and maintained by publique authoritie among the Papists As for the Quéenes maiesties raigne that now is if the euent and sequele may make an argument God hath so blessed it maugre all your spites and practises that no Realme christian hath florished like nor Englande more at anye tyme The Lord be praised for it and for his mercie sake long continue it that hath giuen so goodly a token of his well liking hir Maiesties supreme gouernment The thirde Chapter The argument is that Princes can not iudge nor define in causes Ecclesiasticall OF those errors that are about the povver of kings and magistrats the secoÌ„d error is of theÌ„ that thinke kings are not in dede the chief heads of the Churches in vvhich they raigne but in certaine causes Ecclesiastiall to bee euen as vvorthie members as Bishops â–ª for although in one certaine thing as in the office of teaching they preferre Bishops before kings yet partly in another Ecclesiasticall matter as in deposing a Byshop from his seat or in moderating any synode they preferre kings before Bishops partly they vvill haue it free for kings that almoste in euery ecclesiasticall matter they may knowe and decerne as Iudges Of the confutation of whiche errour this is the reason that I should shewe in euery cause of the ecclesiastical lawe that is to be knowne and iudged Kinges to be so muche in the place of priuate men that this trial can not of the ecclesiasticall Iudges be committed vnto them Although I denie not but that of some facte that perteyneth to the eccl. lawe the knowledge may be committed to Kinges and Magistrates But before the eccl. cause be known the king may orderly intermeddle his authoritie to that ende that a quiet place may be graunted where the Bishops should iudge And also that the Bishops may be called at a certayne day to that place And that in the meane season whyle the ecclesiasticall cause is knowne the publique peace yea euen in the assembly of Priestes may be conserued To conclude after the cause knowne and iudged of the Pristes the king either by the sworde that he
and the power of the pastor is another althoughe it oughte to haue iudgement concurring with it Neither ascribe wée iudgement alike to the pastors and the sheepe although in this spirituall kinde of sheepe some of them haue more sounde and perfect iudgement than their pastors To the minor I answere it is not simply true neyther for in one sense not onely the pastors them selues are lyke wyse sheepe but also the Princes them selues are pastors In the former sense euery faythfull Christian is a sheepe vâ—…der Christe the onely shepehearde and must heare his voyce And so the Prieste is a shéepe also or else he shall neuer be in the folde of the Churche nor placed at the righte hande of Christe In the other sense not onely the Prince is suche a Pastor as Homer calleth Agaâ—…emnon and rules and féedes the body and so the Priestes are his sheepe as well as other subiectes but also in protection setting foorth of Gods worde throughout his Dominions he is their pastor too in appoynting the pastors to féede the sheepe onely in Gods pastures And in this sense we ascribe supreme Pastorship vnto him ouer the Priest also Althoughe in the ministerie of the worde and Sacramentes the Prieste agayne is his superiour pastor and the Prince is but his sheepe But master Saunders replies But if they be counted as Pastors I aske whence they proue it that Christe gaue them suche power for what haue they that they haue not receiued but Christ as he tooke not awaye or diminished the auncient power of kinges graunted by the lawe of Nations so neither annexed he vnto them a newe power of feeding his sheepe Moreouer the auncient power of kinges althoughe it be of God yet is it of him by the meane of the lawe of Nations and the Ciuill and not by any especiall and chiefe constitution of the Gospell as is before declared If therefore Kinges and polytike Magistrates haue any power in causes of faythe either they receiued it from the lawe naturall of Nations and of the Ciuill or of the lawe of God that is reuealed to the Churche But to beginne with the later member firste by the lawe of God that is reuealed to the Churche no suche thing is graunted to kinges For nothing else is reuealed in the newe Testament concerning Princes than that that is Cesars shoulde be giuen to Cesar that tributes shoulde be payde that kings should be prayed for that bothe the King and the gouernours sent from him should be obeyed and finally that al power proceedeth froÌ„ God that euery Magistrate beares not the sworde in vaine but in that matter is to be acknowledged to be Gods minister Moreouer none of these places do bid the king by name dispose of the Churche of Christ or in causes of fayth to arrogate ought to him self The argument in briefe is thus If princes be counted as pastors they haue suche power giuen them But they haue no suche power giuen them Ergo They are not counted as pastors I answere firste to the maior rightly vnderstoode it is true that if princes may be counted as pastors the authoritie is giuen them But it is truely to be vnder stoode by distinction of pastorall authoritie Secondly to the minor that Princes haue no pastorall authoritie giuen them it is false Neither doe his proues proue it If any were giuen them it was giuen them either by the lawe of Nations or by the Ciuill or by Christ in the new Testament But it is giuen them by neither of these three Ergo they haue none giuen them To the maior I aunswere it is false Bycause he leaueth oute the olde Testament whiche he confessed hym selfe before was a figure of the pastorship of the new Testament here he leaues out the old Testament quite Which had he named as he ought to haue done he should both haue séene Princes to haue bene ordeyned immediately of God as Moyses Iosue all the Iudges Saule Dauid and Salomon and not by the meane of the lawe of Nations nor the lawe Ciuill comming betweene And he should haue â—…ounde that the Prince of Gods people is appoynted namely to be a pastor or shepheard vnto them Num. 27. Moses spake to the Lorde saying Let the Lorde God of the spirite of all fleshe appoynt a man ouer the congregation who maye go oute and in before them and leade them out and in that the congregation of the Lorde be not as sheepe without a Pastor 2. Reg. 5. All the Tribes of Israell came to Dauid vnto Hebron and sayde thus Beholde we are thy bones and thy fleshe and in times past when Saule was our king thou leddest Israell in and out and the Lorde hath sayde vnto thee thou shalt feed my people Israel In which words Dauid was made their pastor or shepherd which was reseÌ„bled before in his kéeping of natural shéepe as he confesseth of him self He chose Dauid also his seruant and toke him away froÌ„ the sheepe foldes as he was following the Ewes great with yong ones he tooke him that he might leade Iacob his people Israel his inheritance So he fed theÌ„ with a faythfull and true heart and ruled theÌ„ prudently with al his power Which worde of féeding belonging to a pastor God ascribeth also to al the Iudges saying â–ª VVhen I commaunded the Iudges to feede my people And in 1. Chro. 11. And the Lorde sayde vnto thee thou shalt feede my people of Israell and be the prince c. And in the. 3. booke of the Kings wheÌ„ Micheas described in his vision the kings destruction he sayth I saw Israel dispersed on the mountaynes as sheepe without a pastor and the Lorde sayde these haue no master c. By these and many other places it appeareth that God appoynted the Prince to be a pastor in his office but his office as is proued at large before stretchetâ—… to the setting â—…oorthe the lawe of God and gouernement of the priests so well as the laytie therefore his pastorshippe stretcheth so farre also although not to the taking vpon him the office of the spirituall pastor Secondly I aunswere to the minor it is false For not only by the lawe of Nations and Ciuill a politike pastorshippe is committed to the Prince but also a Christian pastorshippe to a christian Prince euen in the newe Testament also Which as it is comprehended in these sentences that M. Saunders here sets down so are there more sentences that declare the Princes pastorship But sayth he none of these do bidde the king by name to dispose of the Church of Christ or in causes of fayth arrogate ought to him selfe This is a wrong conclusion M. Saunders from iudgement pastorship to inferre disposing arrogating As for arrogating neither the Prince nor the Priest ought to do it nor the Prince attemptes it althoughe the Priestes haue and do attempte it Likewyse for disposing if you meane
lay in them to haue a king or no and not rather in these kings that had subdued them who althoughe they appointed or suffered petit rulers ouer them yet woulde they not suffer them to haue a king But whyle they had kings we reason of those kinges authoritie But what reason haue you else for this is a very slender one But this say you in this kinde I will make my principall reason that Christ when he was in this worlde and fulfilled the whole law and all righteousnesse yet notwithstanding he would in thinges ecclesiasticall onely that the Priest and by no meanes that the earthly king should gouerne This were a principall reason in déede if you could proue this M. Saunders but as yet you haue not proued it and I thinke it will be harder than you wéene for you to doe Now to proue it you reason thus For he openly refused to administer an earthly kingdome and therfore fled when he sawe the people go about to make him a king And he denied that he was ordeyned to be a deuider betweene the brethren But if so be that after the perfecte reason and minde of Moses lawe it had at least beene comely either the Churche or the Bishop to be gouerned of an earthly King Christ would not haue left that thing vnfulfilled For it was no harde matter for him to haue administred a earthly kingdome for some very little time the which when he did not neither yet omitted he any thing that can iustly be desired to the perfect gouernement of his Churche It hath neuer beene at any time or yet is of any perfection that an earthly king shoulde arrogate to him selfe any power in ecclesiasticall matters besides this that with his sworde he shoulde defende and fight for that whiche is defined by the Prieste â–ª sentences And is this necessarie in the Churche M. Saunders that the Prince may do thus much with his sworde But I pray you where dyd Christ thus muche as to fight for the Priests decrees with a sworde If your reason be good you muste shewe this or else why reason you from the factes of Christe whyle he was héere on earth if you can shewe as you promised that Christe woulde that the Priest and by no meanes the prince shuld gouerne in eccl. matters this were to the purpose But this you shew not but would windelace it in with a bought that if Christ would haue had Princes gouerne in ecclesiasticall matters he woulde haue bene a Prince him selfe but he would neuer be a Prince and yet if he had would he might therefore he woulde not haue Princes meddle in matters of his Church sithe he woulde not meâ—…le in matters pertayning to their gouernement If this were a good reason I might reuerse it thus that sithe be medled in their matters when he had tribute to be paide to Cesar when he bad his Disciples not feare them that kill the body when he called Herode Foxe when he tolde Pilate he had no power but that was giuen him from aboue therefore they agayne might meddle in his matters bicause he medled in theirs This is as good a reason as yours But ye say Christ tooke not a kingdome vpon him nor woulde deuide lands yet he tooke vpon him all things necessarie for his Churches gouernment what shoulde you conclude hereon Ergo the Princes gouernment is not necessarie in Church causes is this the direct coÌ„clusion Nay M. Saund. either the coÌ„clusion takes away the Princes gouernmeÌ„t froÌ„ the Church of Christ or else which it doth in déed it hitteth your Pope if you marke it well who pretending to follow Christ taketh an earthly kingdome vpon him and deuideth landes which Christ refused to do The argument is thus Christ did al that was necessary but Christ did not take vpoÌ„ him a kingdome Ergo he thought it not necessary This is flat agaynst the Pope but nothing agaynst christian Princes The coÌ„clusioÌ„ is good for it was not necessary for Christ in his person yet for christian Princes it might wel be necessarie It is necessarie for christian Princes as your selfe coÌ„fesse to vse the teÌ„poral sword in the churches defence and yet Christ him selfe did neuer vse it Except you wil say he vsed it after a sort when with a materiall whip outwarde violeÌ„ce he draue the byers sellers out of the temple But then I replie that herein he exercised for the while eueÌ„ the office of a Magistrate shewed not onely his owne zeale power of his kingdome but also a paterne to al Magistrates Princes with what zeale power they shâ—…ld exercise their authoritie in reforming abuses in the church of god Although Christ him self did not personally handle the sworde as they personally may do Neither yet did Christ all those thinges that his ministers did ought to do It is necessarie for the ministers to baptise yet Christ him selfe that we read of did neuer baptise any he could haue don it if he had thought it necessarie What shal we say with M. Sand he did al that was necessary but he did not baptise Ergo to baptise is not necessarie This therefore is a wrong principle that Christe must haue done euery thing personally him selfe that is necessarie to be done in his Church True it is that if Christe neither did it nor taught it to be done by him self nor by his Apostles but would the contrarie as M. Sand sayth then the argument were good so it confuteth a nuÌ„ber of Popish traditions that were neither done nor taught by Christ nor his Apostles but rather that contrary But as for this gouernment of Princes as M. Sanders him selfe confesseth was practised in the olde lawe whiche lawe gaue the Prince his charge therin And Christ testiâ—…eth that he came not to breake the lawe but to fulfill it And althoughe he became not a Prince him self which might haue seemed to haue made â—…or the Popes purpose but rather condemneth it in his ministers yet both he him self his Apostles obeyed the Prince then ruling which now the Pope denieth statly to do But ye say Christ his Apostles obeyed them not in eccl. matters Neither was it reason M. San. both bicause Christ him selfe was the law maker his Apostles were the first teachers of it Princes then were Infidels But to reason now from the like state in the princes that now are christiaÌ„â—… to giue in all things like authoritie to Bishops paâ—…ors with Christ and his Apostles is as farre from reason on the other side Neither yet do we debarre from Bishops and Pastors that superioritie ouer Princes that is giuen by Christe and his Apostles to them and their successours of the administration of spirituall and ecclesiastical things neither do we as M. Saunders sayth giue the gouernement of the Churche of Christe to an earthly Prince For bothe the Prince is Christian and not
earthly in this respect as M. Saunders him selfe confesseth neither bathe he the gouernement of the Churche which is dispersed in many kingdomes but is a gouernour of a parte therof or of some particular Churche Nowe when M. Saunders hath thus proued as he thinketh the imperfection of the olde lawe saying And thuâ—… should these thinges be if in the olde time the kinges of the Iewes had exercised any chiefe power in ecclesiasticall matters and ouer the Bishops He turneth him selfe on the other side to the flat deniall of this which in the answere to our first obiection he flatly graunted and fled then to thyâ—… shifte that the case was altered But nowe sayth he neither is it true that the Kinges of the Iewes were counted greater than the Priestes of the Leuiticall kinde in administring those thinges that pertayned to ecclesiasticall matters whiche by peece meale I will not be greeâ—…ed to shewe It will not greeue you to tell a lye M. Saunders but to tell the truthe it woulde be a greefe vnto you Where dyd we say that the Kings of the Iewes were counted greater than the Priests in administring those thinges that pertayned to ecclesiasticall matters But go too let vs sée what peecemeale proues you bring And firste saye you Moyses commaunded that after the King was sette in the seate of hys kingdome hee shoulde wryte oute for him selfe in a volume another copâ—…e of this lawe â–ª taking the copie of the Priestes of the â—…euiticall Tribe But if not onely other but the king also him selfe muste go to the Priests for writing out of the lawe how was the king the prince in interpreting the lawe the copie whereof he was compelled to craue of other was he not herein admonished that he should remember that the priests were his superiours in those things that pertayned to the law for as euery Magistrate crauing the sworde of the king receiuing it doth in so doing declare the king in the right of the sword to be greater than him selfe after the same sorte is it when the king receyueth of the Pristes the copie of the diuine law Is this the copie of your piece meale proues M. Sand he that should take a copie of your argumentes might per haps haue néede but God wot shoulde finde full slender stuffe in them This argument is copied out of Stapleton and your other collectors and is already answered Which if it were good bycause the Prince taketh the copie of the lawe from the Priest therefore in the gouernment of matters pertayning to the lawe the Priest is aboue the Prince then is the Register aboue the Chauncelor the Bishop then is the Clarke aboue the Stewarde and the Prince bicause he hath the kéeping of the recordes And this is a more like example than that you bring in of a Magistrate crauing and receyuing the sworde of the king for in this example the King hath not onely the kéeping of the sworde but al the authoritie of and lawfull exercise of the sworde vnder God dependeth on him and suche as he will giue it vnto Wherfore he acknowleageth rightly the King to be his greater But in the lawe of God where the kinges gouernement is appoynted to him and by that appoyntment of God he hath interest in matters of the lawe of God by his kingly office and therefore must haue the lawe of God about him to directe his giuerment and hath not this interest authorie giuen him of the Priest as the subiect hathe the authoritie and exercise of the sworde giuen him of the king doth this argue a like that the Priest is superiour bicause he muste haue the kéeping of the lawe and the king that he may be sure he hath a true copie of Gods lawe muste haue it of the Priest Dothe the keeping argue the greater authoritie â–ª The king must haue the crowne of the kéeper of the crowne and the seale of the keeper of the seale is the keeper therefore the greater Nay it rather argueth althoughe in looking too that those thinges be well kepte and truely declared they haue a more especiall charge in their offices yet are they rather inferiours in that they haue for the kings behoofe the kéeping and deliuery of them And so the priest hathe an especiall charge of keeping and deliuering to the Prince the lawe of God bicause of his especiall vocation in the studie profession and administration of it Whiche argueth more cunning and learning of duetie to be looked for at his handes than at the Princes And therefore we ascribe not as you saye greater principalitie to Princes in the interpreting of the lawe of God. Princes commit that to the interpreters But to the Prince is committed a superiour charge of gouerning all persons to ouersee that the lawe of God be rightly interpreted and administred And for this cause the Prince oughte to haue the copie of the lawe not him selfe to interprete it and whereto then to lye idly by him no to gouerne him selfe and all his subiectes by the prescription of it After this he alleageth the examples of Moyses Samuell Iosue Dauid Salomon Constantius and Theodosius In Moyses and Samuell he hathe nothing that is not common To Iosue Dauid and Salomon he vseth Stapletons answeres and there is answered The examples of Constantius and Theodosius are somewhat already answered and shall be further God willing when we come to the practise And likewise to the Councels that he citeth The argument of the fourth Chapter That Christian Princes may be deposed from their estates by the Bishops and their kingdomes giuen to other when their gouernment hurteth the truth of the faith and the soules health whereto they are ordayned IN this 4 Chapter M. SauÌ„ders kepeth no perfect method and therfore we must follow him as he procéedeth First he maketh two kinds of men the earthly man and the heauenly man and so likewise two kingdoms the one earthly the other heauenly The earthly kingdome choseth their king by humaine consent as Nimrod c. Of the heauenly kingdom that Christ hath in the earth Christ is the king Who although by the worthinesse of his nature he be king of all men yet is he called onely the king of the faithfull Who comming into the world as he hath not taken away the former nature of maÌ„ but renued it so hath he not destroyed the earthly kingdome but amended it Here vpon he concludeth that earthly kings may be made Citizens of gods Church and vse all their olde right and most free gouernement in all those causes that diâ—…ishe not the faith and Religion of christ They may make whome they will fit Ciuil magistrates They maye appoint at their pleasure lawfull punishments for malefactors and freely do al other thing that by the law Naturall Nationall Ciuil or Mâ—…nicipall shall be allowed To all this as we agree with M. Saunders and therfore I gather bâ—…t a briefe coÌ„tâ—…ct
therof so let this by the way be noted that he giueth Princes most free Principaliue 〈◊〉 thoâ—…e causes that 〈◊〉 not the faith and Religion of Christ. But to place good Bishops and pastors in gods Churche to remoue euill Bishops and pastors from gods Church â—…o puâ—… Idolatrie out of gods Gods Church to set forth suâ—…h 〈◊〉 seruice as is to edifie gods church to coÌ„mand the word of God to be read in the vulgar tongue to reforme Ecclesiasticall abuses to punishe whordoms to allow as honorable matrimonie in all men to call councels to commaund the Sacraments to be vsed as Christ ordeined theÌ„ to ouersée al estates degrées of persons in gods Church to do in al things to the glory of God to the publique preseruation of the Church to the faithful administratioÌ„ of their particular callings doth not diminishe the faith and ReligioÌ„ of Christ Therfore Christian Princes haue most free principalitie that is to say supreme gouernment in al these eccl. so wel as in ciuil causes Now that he hath granted to Princes thus much which coÌ„prehendeth all the question he declareth on the other side what he exempteth from the Bishops but so subtily that vnder pretence of debarring them from hauing authoritie in those things that he ascribeth to the Princes principalitie he both reuoketh his former graunt to Princes and conueyeth all those things vnto the Bishops Neither Pastors of the Church saith he doe intermeddle their authoritie in those things saue nowe and then to admonishe them and giue theÌ„ faithfull counsell neither doe we defend all dominions and kingdomes to be giuen by gods lawe euery where and in all things to be subiect to the pastors of the Church but in those causes onely which would hinder the faith and Christian saluation except they were partly forbidden as diuorces vsuries and such other sinnes which the natioÌ„s committe without punishment partly commaunded as giuing of almes the defence of neighbours and chiefly of the poore the fortifying of the Church of Christ and Christian Religion and to conclude all other things which the lawe of God commandeth and prescribeth as necessarie to saluation In these wordes Maister Saunders speaketh cleane contraries the Princes haue the moste frée principalitie in all causes that diminishe not the faith and Religion of Christe and the Bishops doe onely admonishe and giue councel and yet he ascribeth all to the Bishops both to punishe all that would hinder the faith and Christian saluation and to fortifie all that would furder it What is not here againe giuen to the Bishoppes and what is not here againe taken from the Princes yea their Kingdomes and all in some places and nothing left for Princes for what else meaneth he by this we defend not all dominions and kingdomes to be giuen by gods lawe euery where and in all things to be subiecte to the pastors of the Church As who should say some are subiect to them by the law of God where the lawe of God is flat to the contrarie that no kingdomes are subiect vnto them But as Maister Saunders contrarie to gods law maketh some kingdomes subiect in all things vnto Bishops so maketh he all kingdomes subiect vnto them in matters of diuorces vsuries and such other sinnes saith he as the nations commit without punishment Which as it is a sclaunder to Christian Princes as mainteining such sinnes which rather they punishe and Popishe Prelates both permit and commit without punishment of them so he ascribeth these punishmentes to the Popishe Prelates for nothing but for aduauntage as also the gyuing of Almes defence of neighbours and chiefely of the poore As thoughe that Princes did not or could not doe these things but the Priestes who by suche fetches gat all things into their clutches Maister SauÌ„ders hauing thus séemed at the first to yelde vnto Princes great authoritie and streight to take away all againe from them and giue it vnto themselues least Princes might worthily thinke themselues abused he mitigateth the matter with this reason Neither ought it seeme strange to anye man that kings in these matters should obey Christ for this standeth theÌ„ chiefly vpon sith otherwise they cannot get eternall life As thoughe your Pope Maister Stapleton and you hys â—…riests were christ Good reason it is they shuld obey Christ otherwise as you say most truely therein they cannot get eternall life But sith you are not Christ this reason holdeth not But you will say you be Christs and represent christ Woâ—…ld to God you were M. Saunders and not rather â—…tichristes For if you were Chrittes you woulde oâ—…ey your Prince And not haue the Prince in authoritie of gouernement obey you whom you ought to obey since a Christian Prince is Christs also and in authoritie â—…f gouernment immediatly to Christians representeth Christ. Thinke you that Princes can not get eternall life excepte they obey your Pope so you tel them in dede make manâ—…e Princes afraid therof by which meanes you haue gotteÌ„ their gouernement from theÌ„ And thus prâ—…tending the name of Christ you saye VVâ—…en therefore we say that earthly kings ought to be vnder Christes ministers we say onely this that they no otherwise can be saued neither receiued of Christian people to a kingdome or oughte to be suffred in the administration of a kingdome than iâ—… they both doe and pretermit those things that the lawe of Christ commaundeth to be done and pretermitted If you meane the obedience to the ministers of Christ no furder than this to doe and 〈◊〉 those things that â—…he law of Christ commaundeth to be done and pretermitted theÌ„ were the controuersie at an end for this obedience was never denied But before you went furâ—…er and would hauâ—… the Prince to doe and preteâ—… those things that the lawe of the Pope and his Priests would haue done and pretermitted 〈◊〉 you repâ—…e they be 〈◊〉 of Christ their 〈◊〉 is the 〈◊〉 of Christ this would be proued M. Saunders for it is 〈◊〉 of the chiefest pointes in controuâ—…sie As for Christs lawe we graunt that excepte the Prince obey it he can not be saued But that he which in any one poynt doth any thing which Christs lawe commaundeth nâ—…t or 〈◊〉 any thing that Christs lawe commaundeth is not to be receiued 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 people to a kingdome or bâ—…ing receiued ought not to be â—…tred in the administration of a kingdome is a perilouâ—… doctrine For who should thâ—… be a king or who shoulde noâ—… be turned oute of his kingdome For who offendeth not herein chiefely expounding the law of Christ as your selues â—…ed in what daunger and thraloâ—…me to you should kings become so that it were better be a begger and beg his bread than be a Christian king and rule and be ruled on this wise if these your rules were true But now to helpe the matter you will expound what ye meane by the â—…aw of Christ. But what the
Christ should place ouer them a limme of the Deuil Verily Iouianus vvhen after the death of Iulianus he was saluted Augustus and Caesar I can not quoth he sithe I am a Christian gouerne the armie of Iulian that is infected with the precepts of the pestiferous doctrine TheÌ„ the souldiors answered that they wer not straÌ„gers from the Christian religion But if there ought to be so great a likenesse coherencie betwene the head the members that a christian Emperor wold gouerne no souldiors but christians how much more vnequal vncomly is it that the Christian souldiors of their owne voluntarie should call vnto gouernment an heathen or heretical man For what is this else but to cast themselues in danger of losing their faith Al this againe we graunt you M. sand so long as you restrain your self to voluntarie election And sée that in al your proues examples you kepe your selfe thereto for else you straggle froÌ„ your own demauÌ„des But how many Princes in Christendome haue you that be chosen in that sort of so frâ—… voluntarie choice as you speake of or not rather their kingdomes belong vnto them by claime of right succession or otherwise And shall these be debarred the right of their enheritance for pretence of religion Well goe to then what if we say such such a Prince is a papist a mainteiner of false religion differing froÌ„ Gods truth our profession therefore we wil not haue him to be our king although by law he haue good title to it yea be in reall possession of it Wil you allowe this our refusall M. sand I trowe you wil not If you wil not then you breake this your own rule that you would so faine haue graunted to you Notwithstanding where free election is tâ—… be had ther your rule is most true Let Protestants there choose Protestants Papistes there choâ—…se Papists hardyly so the one shal the lesse encomber the other But where men can not do as they would there they must do as they may so nere as theyâ—…aÌ„ choose whom they think fittest But if it lie not in them thus voluÌ„tarily to chose they must take their lot perchance of the worsse praye to God to amend that is amisse receiue their duetiful Prince with good loyal hearts yea though he be an enimie to the Gospel beséeching God to conuert him or to mollifie him to becoÌ„me enclinable at the least to be no persecuter of the truth so praying for his successe in goodnesse obey him in truth dissent from him in â—…ull but rebel against him in nothing coÌ„mit the rest to God that sente him And this me thinketh is a better rule of the twaine than that he hauing right should wrongfully be refused The example that you bring of Iouianus is not alike Who refused the gouernmeÌ„t ouer Iulianus souldiors For there is a difference betwéene Princes refusing to be gouernors and the peoples refusing to be subiectes If you can shâ—…we that the Christian souldiors of Iulianus as this Iouianus one of Iulians chiefest Captaines and the Christian souldiors vnder his band renounced their obedience to Iulâ—…an or woulde not goe to warre against the Persians and fight vnder his conduct but reuolt from him bycause hee was reuolted from God then you shoulde shew something to the purpose But this you can not shew yea we can shewe the â—…t contrarie that so long as Iulian raigned Iouian woulde neuer rebell nor forsake his obedience althoughe his Prince were an Apostata and renied the faithe of Christe If you replye that Iouian â—…id forsake his souldiorship in Iulians time True it is that â—…eing a Captaine â—…uer a thousande when Iulian made a lâ—…w for Souldiors that either they shoulde sacrifice or for sake their Souldiorship Iouian chose rather to lâ—…se his girdle which was the ornan â—…nt of his knighthoode than to obey the wicked prâ—…cepts of the Emperor Howbeit herein â—…e renouÌ„ced not his obedience to his Princes estate but rather expressed his obedience in obeying the penaltie of his lawe And when the Emperour for necessitie of the warre chose him againe he refused not to become againe his soulviour Your example therefore of Iouian maketh cleane against your purpose This one petition being thus demaunded whiche we graunt vnto you in frée elections although you aske but one demaunde yet nowe on this you will encroch an other and set downe the figure of 2. in your margine as a seconde demaunde saying But the lavve of God vvhich commaundeth none should be placed ouer Christians but a Christian the same lavve commaundeth that none other should of Catholike people be receiued to the gouernement of a kingdome but a Catholike For he that is a Catholike althoughe in vvorde he call himselfe notvvithstanding he hath lefte of to be a liuely meÌ„ber of the Church of Christ. You aske but one petition M. Saunders and we haue graunted it but will you therevpon aske more nay then it is time to stop you You spake before of a Christian and now you demaunde the same of a Catholike What do you mean hereby do you make a difference betwéene a Christian and a Catholike But howe chaunce you saye not as you sayde before a Papist For I thinke by Catholike you meane a Papist but this we haue gramited you alreadie Lette a Papist in free election if he will needes chose a Papist Qui â—…descit sordescat adhuc He that is filthie let him be filthie stil and let a Turke choose a Tuâ—…ke sithe he will choose no better Yet then let a Protestant choose a Protestant by your own rule But that he that is no Catholike that is to saye as you expounde it no Papist is no liuely member of the Church of Christ This is an other question M. Saunders and you desired to propounde but one and will you now haue so many You sayde it shoulde appeare vvith hovve great equitie you woulde defende your cause and will you nowe offer â—…o greate iniurie to so many Christian Princes bothe in the East Church in the Weast in the South and in the North that are no such Cathoâ—…kes that is to say no Papistes and therefore be no liuely members of Christes Church Nay M. Saunders this must not be graunted there is no equitie in it excepte you be able to proue it For you knowe that the title of Catholike is not onely called in question whether it belong to you or no but also in your sense thereof for a Papist it is so sore battered that it will rather fal out that the Catholike is no liuely member of Christes Church thaÌ„ that the Protestante or Gospeller as you call vs is none But let vs sée howe you procéede VVhiche thinges sithe they are thus this is moreouer to be added Although that any vvhen he vvas first made king was a Christian and a Catholike if
as it is likely by M. sand tale he hath witte wisedome inough begin to smel a rat think with him selfe what should he meane to put this differâ—…ce I freely offered to receiue the Christian fayth and he wyll not take this offer but wyll haue me receiue that faith and that Churche that he sayth was from the Apostles and is continued by succession of Bishops till this day and is dispersed throughout all the worlde Why and is not this the christian fayth and the christian Churche If it be I offered my selfe to it before but he refaseth my offer Then surely this is not that fayth and Church that he meaneth And why should he rather haue me bounde to the Apostles if they were Christes Apostles than to Iesus Christ him selfe shal I be baptised in their names why should I binde my selfe to Bishops succestors which what they haue ben how ill or how welsome of them haue succeeded their predecessors I knowe not nor I will sweare for theÌ„ And why shoulde I then sweare vnto them rather than vnto the fayth of Christ who is the chiefe Bishop of our soules And why should I binde my selfe to â–ª Church dispersed throughout all the worlde What meaneth he by this the greatest and mightiest multitude or the lyttle flocke of Christ scattered in euery Nation or be it greate or little why should he bind me more to men than vnto Iesus Christ And why requireth he to these things as if it were euen to Christe him selfe and to the fayth of him the defence of all my force and what meaneth he by this force that I shall for all these thinges gather all my power and make sharpe warre where and when he coÌ„maundes me and that I shal oblige my selfe to al these conditions on the forfeyture of my kingdome and depose my selfe from my â—…ght become a priuate man and leaue the office charge that God hath called me vnto for leauing of these things Yea that if I should not wilfully do otherwise but if I should chaunce to do otherwise And what if he would threape vpon me that I chaunced to do otherwise Surely surely this is not playne dealing with me nor any good meaning to me He seekes not my saluation but my kingdome that thus would snarle me and is not content that I fréely offer to acknowledge the Christian fayth What if the King would cast all these coniectures master Saunders trow you he hathe not good occasion ministred yea what if the King héere vpon béeing thus refused of the Bishop examined these thinges throughly shoulde he not finde foule holes in your coate I tell you it would touche you to the quicke And perhaps it had béene better for the Bishop to haue taken the kinges frée offer and without suche conditions to haue giuen him his baptisme for else he might haue it of some other Bishops hands that had learned of Christ not to breake the broosed reede nor to quenche the smoking flaxe nor to caste off by suche indentinges this godly disposed Prince but with all humilitie and diligence to receiue instruct baptise him yea and bewray all your Popishe iuglinges And what had ye gotten then by these your proude conditions hathe not your pride and couetousnesse made you make a faire market and loose so riche a pray But nowe let vs yet admitte your presupposall further The king would be baptized The Bishop refuseth except on these conditions to admitte him The king séeth there is no remedie he receyueth these conditions What is his dutie nowe to do but with all his force to persist and defende them â–ª What is that for sooth that fayth and Church which beeing receyued from the Apostles is continued by the succession of Bishops vntill this day and dispersed throughout all the worlde Nowe sithe this is his charge and he is bounde to obserue it with all his force on forfeyture of his kingdome is it not gâ—… reason that he examine and boulte out which this fayth and Churche is Especially since he heareth that there is great coÌ„trouersie about these matters and that there are both wise learned famous men of both sides Yea sayth he if the case be not cleare that I am so strayghtly bounde in it standes me vpon to looke to this geare better and to heare bothe parties say what they can that I may know and be sure that I keepe my promise and not to forfayt my bonde What now for his better assurance shal the prince do must he not here call bothe the parties before him say to the Bishop that tooke thiâ—… promise of him â—…y Lorde you remember what promise you made me make vnto you or euer you would baptise me And nowe I heare say the â—…oyntes that you made me promise to defende with all my force and to persist therein are litigious You holde them one way and your aduerfaries another way you say your fayth and Church is that faith and Church that was receiued of the Apostles for howesoeuer the succession of Bishops haue helde it and whersoeuer it hath bene dispersed the receipte of the Apostles from Christ himselfe I perceiue is the first and principal condition that I promised to persist in and to defende withall my force The other twayne must both depende on this I chiefly minde therfore to kâ—…pe this the other as they shal agrée hereto But here your aduersaries on the other pâ—…t 〈◊〉 and offer to proue it that your faith and Church is not that faith and Church that the Apostles receiued and deliuered but iâ—… a faith and Church â—…egenerate and swarnedfromit And therefore if you will not be youre selues the cause tâ—… make me breake the promise that ye made me take ye muste cléere your selues of that â–ª your aduersaries obiect against you and confute them And you she Bishops aduersaries on the other side mustâ—… bring foorthe youre prooues and defences of youre faythe and Churche and shewe good reason why I should not impugne your fayth and churche and defende theirs agaynst you And héere for equall dealing betweene you bothe béeing parties playntife or defendaunt neither of you your selues shall be your owne or your aduersaries Iudge for the one were partialitie the other iniurie neither I whom the matter bothe for my office and for my promise and forfeyture toucheth nearest will be your Iudge but an indifferent hearer of bothe parties And bicause you bothe admitte the Scriptures to be Gods worde and both the Apostles fayth and the Apostles Church is manifestly recorded in the Scriptures and Christ also willeth vs to search the Scriptures for they beare recorde of him the matter shall be determined by the Scriptures Both of your faiâ—…hes and Churches shall be leueled by that platforme that shall be there apparantly expressed And as the Scripture shall strike the stroke betwéene you I will minister 〈◊〉 rightly to saue my promise And will deâ—…ende wâ—…th
of Christe to haue so mightie a Realme as Englande or Fraunce to become Christian by this offer why is not this offer taken for sooth the B. refuseth it Is not here a great iniurie offered to Christs Church by this B but whie doth the B. thus bycause the Prince will not promise obedience to the Prelates and to renounce his kingdome if he swarue from his obedience to them Is this a sufficient cause for want of obedience to the Prieste to defeate Chryste of his obedience Nay say you he made an exception that he vvoulde not submit his Diademe to Christ. By your leaue M. Saunders there you say not true Loke on your own presupposall once again yea on the words you made the Prince to speake whiche althoughe they were of your owne deuising for you neuer I suppose heard or read of Prince desirous to be baptized that spake on that fashion you do but tell the Princes tale to your aduantage yet finde you no such wordes in the wordes that you speake for him yea he speaketh the contrarie in offering to acknowledge the faith of Christ. But say you he would not submit his Diademe make his kingdome subiecte in the cause of faithe to the Ministers of Christ and that is all one vvyth denying to submit his Diademe to Christ. Yea Master Sanders were it admitted ye were ministers of Christ is Christ you al one the submissioÌ„ to Christ to his ministers al one Backare M. Saâ—… there is a great difference And yet Chryst requireth no submission of Diademes or subiection of kingdoms in such sort vnto him that he wold haue kings resigne them vp to him and he woulde take them no he neuer vsed that practise He might haue had such kingdomes if he had list but he refused them as your selfe before haue confessed Althoughe your Pope will haue kings resigne their kingdomes vnto him and he will take them and ruffle in greater pompe than any king vseth to doe Whiche argueth playnely that he is not Christes minister And therefore the king hardyly may refuse his vnlawfull demaunde that he woulde in the name of Christ extort as Christes officer which his master Christe both refused himselfe and forbad in his ministers And therefore the Prince dothe Chryste no iniurie bycause he will not bring his kingdome thrall to a false Prieste pretending to be Christes Minister béeing indéede the Minister of the tempter that offereth worldly kingdomes But say you hee muste make his kingdome subiecte to them in the cause of faith As though the cause of faith were hindered if the King made not his kingdome subiecte to the Priestes where as this were the reddiest way bothe to destroye the kingdome and the faith No Master Saunders the faithe of Chryste was neuer more sincere than when the Ministers of Chryst were obedient subiectes to their kings And the cause of faythe was neuer more weakened and corrupted than sithe Priestes haue wrong themselues out of their kings subiections and that the Popes haue made the Kings sweare obedience vnto them But Maister Saunders whines at this crying out vvhere is the obedience of faith that Christ sent his Apostles to procure in all the vvorlde You do well Master Saunders to aske vvhere it is for surely it is not with you nor in all your Popishe kingdome except here and there lurking and dare not shewe hir head for feare your Popishe Inquisitors woulde gette hir by the polle The obedience of fayth was frée when Priests were subiectes and since Priestes became Princes they haue taken hir captiue and exiled hir and done all that they coulde to haue killed hir But she is escaped your hands and requicouereth that libertie that the Apostles procured in all nations for hir And she doth so much the better bicause she rereth not worldly subiection of Princes but letteth Princes kéepe the estate of their kingdomes and requireth not onely obedience to hir in a more spirituall submission Whiche the more Princes yelde vnto hir they bring not their kindomes into more slauerie but into more libertie renowne and honour So that I truste shortely they will bring the Pope and his proude Prelates to their olde obedience againe Whie saye you this is to arme Princes agaynste the Church Nay Master Saunders it is rather to strengthen the Church to let Princes haue that armor that is due vnto them What say you to lette them doe vvhat they vvill and for nothing they shall doe to saye they vvill not leaue their Empire No bodie Master Saunders giueth Princes authoritie to do what they will. The authoritie that is giuen them is onely to doe good Their vvill must not be what they will but what Lawe vvill It is not with them as it is wyth your Pope Sic volo sic Iubeo stet pro ratione voluntas Thus I vvill and thus I commaunde my vvyll shall stande in steade of reason The Law is not wyth them in scrinio pectoris in the cofer of the brest as your Pope sayth it is in his I graunt there are Princes that doe thus but that is not their dutie Neither do Princes make a profession as you say that for nothing they will giue ouer their authoritie nor it is required of them nor presupposed But their duetie in their officâ—… is required and it is presupposed they will continue therein Which if they do not but breake promise shall the subiectes depose them or the Byshops depriue them by whiche rule they may quickly set vpon the Prince for any enormitie in ciuil matters too for he promised to minister iustice to al meÌ„ but he promised to none to giue vp his crowne if he did not Yea though he had made them some suche expresse promise also and brake it yet coulde no Byshop nor any other priuate person attempte to depose him for the breach thereof but commit the vengeance to god But this Prince that here is presupposed offereth inough vnto the Bishop which if he refuse not the Prince but the Byshop endamageth the Church of Christ. Nowe Master Saunders presupposing in this supposall that he hath clearely euicted the case where the Byshop by expresse wordes maketh this condition with the king he will pursue his victorie that he thinketh he hath gotten and proue that the king hath promised and is bounde euen as muche where the Byshoppe at his baptisme saithe no suche wordes vnto him But if so be saith he all men vvill confesse that no Byshop can giue baptisme vvithout great sinne to that king vvhom he seeth so proude then truely although the Byshop by negligence or forgetfulnesse shall say nothing hereof vnto the king notvvithstanding suche is the obedience that the king himselfe giueth vnto the Gospell of Christe vvhen he maketh himselfe a member of him and desireth of him to be saued that vvill hee nill hee this promise is contained in that facte that he shall minister vnto Christ and to the
Kingdomes and depose Kings as they shall thinke expedient and to proue this â–ª we must saye they be in the Churches power and to proue that wee must saye they are spirituall â–ª and so spirituall men may deale with spirituall thyngs And for this reason we can sée no cause nowe but that Christian Kingdomes are spirituall that we spirituall men which are the Church might haue the disposing of them Well then I see also Maister Saunders that for aduantage you can and you can not see And play seest me and seest me not But who seeth not that hath any indifferent eyes that this is but legerdemain and that you speake flat contraries in one thing although you turne your tale to other purposes But let go that you saw not before let vs loke what you see in Princes now Nowe you see that they are spirituall And why so not bicause they doe the spirituall actions of the Priests but bicause of their better part that is of the spirite of God and bicause of the end wherto they driue al their things to become as it were spirituall Why then M. Saunders your eyes mighte serue you if your hart could serue you to see this withall that although the Prince can not do the spirituall actions of spirituall persons yet this hindreth not that he may notwithstanding be a gouernor ouer ecclesiasticall persons in causes ecclesiasticall and maye ouersee them both And if you can see the one and not the other surely your sight is partiall But newe M. Saunders loking another way will haue Princes no furder spirituall than in that they are vnder the Church And here making the Maior the Minor the former the later by a figure called Hysteron proteron the carte before the horse he will proue that all spirituall things are so much vnder the Churche of Christ that the Church may freely dispose and decree of them to the profite of the whole mysticall body and so Kings and Kingdomes as is sayde before beyng spirituall things are so muche vnder the Churche of Christ that she may freely to the profit of the whole mysticall body dispose and decree of Kings and kingdomes But first Maister SauÌ„ders we denie your Maior For although in certaine things it be true to wit in such things as are left to the disposition of the Church that is to order and dispose such things as of their nature are indifferent to the profite of the whole mysticall body or any part thereof for these things are called spirituall things not properly in their owne nature but as in spirituall causes the spirituall persons vse them and yet all this is not so freely lefte to the Churches disposition that some principall persons in the Church as the Prince or the Pastors haue not the chiefest stroke in the disposition of them For if they were so free that euery member in the Churche shoulde haue his nay or yea in disposing of theÌ„ when would they be disposed And if at length they were it would peraduenture fall out in the end so little to the profite of the whole mysticall body that it woulde be rather the hinderaunce and disquieting of it But besides these spiritual thinges there are a great many other of whiche some in déede are méere spirituall as the worde of God the Sacramentes of Christ the Articles of fayth the Commaundementes of life and all suche thinges as God hathe either expressed in his worde or is necessarily conteyued in it These thinges béeing spiritual are not so vnder the churche of Christ that the churche may freely dispose and decree of them But they statly dispose and decree of the churche and the churche can not alter nor swarue one iote from them Whiche if she shoulde she shoulde not profite hir selfe for she is the whole mysticall body but destroy hir selfe and dissolue the whole body and euery part therof And such as these things are is the estate of a King and kingdome whiche althoughe it be not so méere a spirituall thing but so farre foorthe spirituall as your selfe confesse yet bicause it is the ordinaunce of God and God hath in his worde set foorthe the office of a King and declareth that the setting vp and pulling downe of Kinges and the alterations of kingdomes belongeth to him selfe and neuer gaue that authoritie to his Churche muche lesse to his Ministers to set vp and depose Kinges and alter kingdomes Kinges therefore and their kingdomes no more than other spirituall thinges are not so vnder the churche of Christe that she maye freely dispose and decree of them to the profite of the whole mysticall body Neither hathe the whole mysticall body any more thraldome or lesse fredome that Kings and kingdomes are not so vnder hir or that she maye not freely dispose and decree of them as she shall thinke moste profitable to the whole mysticall body than she hathe more thraldome or lesse freedome bicause she can not alter nor dispose the other spirituall things Yea in this case the Churche léeseth lesse libertie than in the other for the freedome of the Churche â–ª béeing a mysticall body is cleane another matter pertayning to the conscience and is a mysticall freedome from the tyrannie of Sathan from the cursse of the lawe from the bondage of sinne from ceremonies and humayne constitutions and not from obedience to kinges and to haue superioritie ouer them and libertie to depose them and to translate their kingdomes Whiche freedome and superioritie is not spirituall but carnall and worldly And if the Churche had it she woulde not onely bring kinges and kingdomes but euen hir selfe in bondage and therefore Christe hathe barred it Whiche freedome bicause the Popishe Churche aspireth vnto and claymeth and holdeth ouer â–ª kinges and kingdomes she is not the true Church of Christ that they boast of but rather a Iewishe Synagoge dreaming vpon an earthly Messias or rather a Persian or Turkishe Temple that measureth the freedome and dignitie of Gods Church by the pompe and mighte of the worlde to depose kings and dispose of their kingdomes at their pleasures But to proue that kings and kingdomes pertayne not to the free disposition of the Church but of God I will desire no better prooues nor example than euen M. Saunders heere brings foorthe Sithe therefore sayth he the â–ª people of Israell would needes desire a king to be giuen theÌ„ Samuel by the commaundement of God tooke a cruse of oyle and powred it vpon the head of Saule and kissed him â–ª and sayde beholde God anoyâ—…teth thee to be the Prince ouer his Inheritaunce which to me seemeth to signifie as though it had bene sayde except the Lorde anoynted thee to be the Prince thou couldest not rightly and orderly be the Prince ouer his people whiche he hathe chosen and reserued out of all the worlde to be as it were peculiar to him selfe For in that that is Gods no man can take power
nor there in his humaine nature as Christe himselfe hath testified Which as it dasheth this your case yée put so it confuteth an other chiefe errour of yours that affirme yée haue the humaine nature of Christe closed vp in a boxe and that yée eate him vp or kéepe him vp till he waxe mouldie and then you burne him vp Is this the best honor you can affoorde to Christe being conuersant heere in earth in his humaine nature If it be true that you say he is present how chance yée serue him thus is it bycause he appeareth not in his likenesse but looketh rather like a wafer if it were Christe indéede howsoeuer he loked can you finde in your hearts thus to order him But you will saye that is an other matter answere to this presupposal We speake nowe of Christ appearing in his owne likenesse How say you if he were conuersant in earth as he was shoulde hee not ouer Christian Kings haue superioritie in temporall causes so vvell as in ecclesiasticall that might promote his Churche I answere if this were admitted to be true that Christ againe were conuersant on the earth Christian Kings ought no doubt to giue him all superioritie and be vnder him in all ecclesiasticall and temporall causes that might promote his Churche acknowledging all the power they haue to procéede from him But that Christ if he were againe on the earth woulde raigne ouer Kings and in his humaine nature rule Kings in their secular causes or that he woulde thinke this a way to promote the Church or that he would depose Princes and make their subiectes reuolt from their obedience or that he woulde cease their kingdomes into his handes and make Kings to kisse his féete to leade his Horsse to holde his sturrops or that he would weare thrée Crownes and Princely roabes of gold frette with perle and stone or that he would kepe suche a princely porte and pompe as passed all other Princes which things your Pope pretending to be his Uicar in the absence of his humaine nature doth this would be harde for you to proue M. Saunders although your case were graunted that Christ personally in his humaine nature vvere conuersant in earth againe For if he would haue had any of these thinges he might haue had them when he was here on earth as your selfe confessed in the Chapter going before saying This in this kinde I vvill speake as the chiefest argument that Christe vvhile he vvas here in earth and fulfilled all the lavve and all righteousnesse notwithstanding he would gouern eccl. matters only as a Priest and by no means as an earthly king For he openly refused to administer an earthly kingdome therfore fled when he saw the people go about to do this thing that they might make him a king he denied that he was appointed a deuider betwene the brethreÌ„ Are not these your own wordes M. Sand I knowe you wrest them to an other purpose whiche there is answered vnto But howe serue they not here against your selfe â–ª trow you Christe is now become of an other mynde than he was when he was here on earth if he be still of the same mind then would he not take vpon him if he were here againe on earth the estate of an earthly King nor gouerne in secular causes But trowe you your Pope pretending to be his Uicar would suffer this seese the temporalties he possesseth the kingdomes he hath gotten the honor that is giuen him or any thing else that in eccl. secular causes vnder pretence of the Churches promotion he vsurpeth ouer all kings Christian no he would rather handle Christ worsse if he could lay hands vpon him then euer did the Iewes he wold not onely crucifie Christe againe but burne him cleane to ashes for an hereâ—…ike rather then he would lose this honor or any iote thereof But and if Christe were here againe conuersant on earth in his humaine nature woulde he suffer the Popes intollerable pride and errours would he allowe him to abuse his name as thoughe he were his deputie and Uicar generall I trow not Not that I thinke he séeth it not or suffers it not or hath not by his prouident iustice ordeined that Sathan should set vp such an Antichrist to delude strongly the Children of vnbeleefe and to exercise vnder the Crosse of Christ his litle elected flocke But that if Christe should so come as he here supposeth surely I woulde thinke the cause of his coÌ„ming to be euen to destroy spiritu oris eius with the breath of his mouth this man of sin not to mainteine him in his pompe muche lesse himselfe to take the like vpon him Not that Christe is not a king ouer the house of Iacob not that his kingdome is not eternal as the Angel said to Marie not that he should not subdue al earthly kingdoms to his spiritual kingdome but that his kingdome is spiritual not earthly the subduing of earthly kingdomes is with a sword that conquereth the soule of man that is the word of God with a force from aboue subduing the will of man that is the spirite grace of God and not such a subduing of their kingdomes that it dissolueth their polycies estates or deposeth their kings maketh the people take Armes and exerciseth â–ª in secular causes an earthly Kings authoritie M. Saunders pretendeth this is to promote the Churche of Christ but suche promotion confoundes deuotion and hath poysoned the Church of God as they say a voyce was heard what time Constantine although falsly is supposed to haue endowed the Church with such royall honor Hodie venenum intrauit in ecclesâ—…n This day entered poyson into the Church But Christ hath flatly forbidden it and tolde his Disciples when they asked such promotion that they knewe not what they asked But afterwarde they knewe and founde the saying of Christ to be true that their promotion lay in their affliction and not in their kingly honor And thus we sée the falsehood of the maior forged vpon this fained presupposall whiche is not to be graunted and yet if it were graunted it would fall out to the vtter ruine of the Pope all his Prelates Such ill lucke hath M. Sand stil to light on such examples as he coÌ„ceineth to make for him but being a litle better examined make most of al against him Now to the minor that Christ hath giuen to his Ministers in the visible ministerie all the povver necessarie to saluation that he should haue himselfe in his humaine nature Where find you this M. Sand I thinke it will be ouer hard a matter for you to proue that all the povver necessarie to saluatioÌ„ that he shoulde haue himselfe in his humaine nature in the visible ministerie he hath giueÌ„ it al to his ministers Al power saith Christe is giuen to me in heauen and in earth this is spoken in respecte
of Christe for Ieremie is interpreted the highe one of the Lorde who destroyed the kingdomes of the Diuell whiche he shewed vnto him on the toppe of the Mountayne hee destroyed the aduersarie powers blotting out the handewriting of errour in his Crosse. Of whome nexte to the hystoricall truthe it is sayde in a figure VVherefore did the Nations frette and the people imagine vayne thinges the Kinges of the earthe stoode vp and the Princes came togither in one In the place of all these beeing destroyed loste and pulled downe into hell the Churche of God is builded vp and planted Thus saith your owne Glosse in applying this sentence from Ieremie to Christe concerning Christes pulling downe and setting vp of kingdomes And on this wyse oughte the Ministers of Christe to pull downe and set vp kingdomes that is with the sworde of Gods worde to beate down â–ª the power of Sathan the kingdome of errour the buylding on the sandes the workes of sinne to roote vp vices and to beate downe as S. Paule termeth them all strong holdes resisting the truthe of God and to set vp the kingdome of Christ to edifie his Church to builde vpon the rocke to plante vertues and by doctrine and ensample enstruct the faythfull people And so dothe youre owne Glosse interprete it Vt euellas mala destruas regna Diaboli That thou shouldest pull vp euils and destroy the Kingdomes of the Diuell c. and shouldest edifie the Churche Wherevpon saythe the Glosse To foure heauie thinges two ioyfull thynges succeede for neyther can good thinges be buylded except the euill thinges be destroyed neither can the best thinges be planted excepte the worste thinges be rooted vp For euery plante that my heauenly father hathe not planted shall be pulled vp by the rootes and that buylding whiche is not buylded on the rocke but vpon the sandes is digged vp and destroyed with the worde of god But that which the Lorde shall consume with the spirite of his mouthe that is all sacrilegious and peruerse doctrine he shall destroy it for euer and those things that lifte vp them selues agaynst the kingdome of God and truste in their wisedome VVhiche before God is foolishnesse he shall scatter and put them downe that for these the humble thinges mighte be edified And in place of the former thinges that are destroyed and pulled vp those things may be buylded and planted that are conuenient to the ecclesiastical truth of whom it is saide you are the buylding of God you are the tilth of God. Héere M. sand euen by your owne glosse is described what this building and pulling downe is that belongeth to the ministers of Christ so farre vnlike your Popishe buylding that it sheweth the ouerthrowe and rooting vp of your plantes and buylding and howe your kingdome shall vtterly be destroyed In the ouerthrowing of whiche munitions and buylding the truth of God the ministers of Christ muste so set themselues agaynst all worldly kingdomes that fearing not their mighte and tyrannie agaynst the truthe they ouercome them As God sayde to Ieremie Girde vp thy loynes and arise and speake vnto them all those thinges that I commaunde thee Feare not their faces for I wil make thee not to feare their faces For I haue made thee this day a strong citie and an yron piller and a brasen wall ouer al the lande to the Kings of Iuda and to the Princes therof and to the Priests and to the people thereof and they shall not preuaile for I am with thee saithe the Lorde and wil deliuer thee If the kinges of Iuda sayth the Glosse whiche is interpreted confession and the Princes and Priestes and people of it to witte the Bishops the Priestes and Deacons and the vile and vnnoble vulgar people will arise agaynst an holy man let him haue a strong faithe and feare not let him trust in God and he shall conquere them Héere is the conquest of these kingdomes whereby the true Ministers of God shall ouercome all Kings and Princes all Bishops Priestes and Deacons and all the people that resist them But this is as farre from deposing kings from their estates from ruling possessing and translating earthly kingdomes as you that séeke after all these things are farre from Ieremies from Christes and from his Ministers conquests But sayth M. Saunders the Protestantes who can not suffer that the fleshe giue place vnto the spirite or the temporall kingdome to the spirituall for euery where they fauour too muche the fleshe and the worlde before all thinges they alleage agaynst vs the saying of Christe my kingdome is not of this worlde we muste see therefore what Christe in those wordes woulde haue vnderstoode For the Protestantes wrest them hitherto as thoughe the Ministers of the Church of Christ which is the kingdom of God may haue at any time no power ouer Christian Princes or ouer their earthly kingdomes and causes subiect to them bicause the kingdome of Christ himselfe is not of this worlde But in this thing they are too fouly deceyued For it is another thing â–ª not to be of this worlde and farre another thing that the Christian kingdome that is in this world shoulde not be subiect to Christ and to the Ministers of christ VVhen Christ denieth his kingdome to be of this worlde either by the name of this world is vnderstoode sinne and the tyrannie of sinne and the masse of the reprobate as the Lorde otherwhere faithe you are not of the worlde if you were of the worlde the world would loue his owne but I haue chosen you out of the worlde or else by the name of the worlde is vnderstoode all this visible creature whereof the faythfull also are parte so long as they liue heere If therefore by the worlde we vnderstand darknesse and sinne and the reprobates of this world certaine it is the kingdome of Christ is by no meanes of this world bicause all the kingdome of Christe is lighte and darknesse is not in his kingdome who lightneth euery man comming into this worlde But if by the worlde we meane the visible creatures and among them compreheÌ„d the Churche of God verily â—…e denieth not that those creatures are subiect vnto him or that these temporal kingdomes that beleeue in him are comprehended vnder his eternall kingdome But he denieth that his kingdome is from hence that is to say taketh his originall of this world as other kingdomes are wonte to do For the kingdome of Christe sâ—…rang not from the law of nations as other kingdomes do but from the diuine and naturall yea and from the supernatural lawe VVherevpon Augustine marked that Christe saide not my kingdome is not heere but it is not from hence for in the worlde it is but of the â—…orlde it is not but of heauen Héere M. sand hauing as he thinketh confirmed his opinion will now assay to confute our obiection agaynst it And to this purpose
be the pastor So that this place as it maketh nothing for the power of the Priests ouer the goods and bodily things of the faithfull so it maketh much here in against them For if S. Paule in such matters of goods and bodily things rather than they should not haue a Christian iudge woulde haue them chose among themselues euen a contemptible person how much more now when the Church hath faithfull iudges and Christian Princes it ought in such controuersies to run to them for Iustice rather than to the Priests and Bishoppes that are of another calling Moreouer least any shoulde say that the Churche of Christ hath nothing to do with the businesse of this worlde he sayth expressely do ye not know that the saintes shall iudge of thys world and if the world shal be iudged by you are ye vnworthy to iudge of small things know ye not that we shall iudge the Angels how much more worldly things Behold the Apostle reasoneth from the spirituall power to the temporall on this wise To whom that which is more is lawfull to him is lawfull that which is lesse But we Christians shall iudge of the world and we shall iudge the renegate Angels and the Deuils themselues the which commeth by the spirituall power â–ª wherby we be made the sonnes of God and the coinheritors of Christ much more therefore may we exercise secular iudgements VVherby it appeareth that secular things are both inferior â—…o spirituall and are not estranged from the spirituall power but may light vnder it chiefely then when the matter is in hand of punishing or iudging those men that are the meÌ„bers of the Church of Christ. 〈◊〉 saye not Master Saunders that the Churche of Christ hath nothing to doe vvith the businesse of this world this is but your sclaunder We say that the spirituall Ministers of the Churche of Christe haue not so to do with such vvorldly businesse that they maye turquise all the vvorlde and alter the states of vvorldly kingdomes and occupie them selues about vvorldly affaires in such vvorldly dominion as you pretende they maye Whereto you abuse shamefully Saint Paules sayings He speaketh there of vvorldly matters and you applye it to all iudgementes yea to the iudging of a kingdome â–ª But you replle he saith the Saints shall iudge the worlde and the Angels vvhiche are greater thinges than kingdomes howe muche more then kingdomes that are lesser things Trowe you Master Saunders he speaketh there of such iudging the vvorlde that they should iudge like chiefe Iustiâ—… of realmes and kingdomes whether this or that Prince shall enioye them or shall be dispossessed of them No M. Saunders she speaketh of no suche thing The worlde shall be iudged in them as Chrysostome well noteth Iudicabunt non ipsi iudices c. They shal iudge â–ª not they themselues sitting in iudgemeÌ„t exacting an accouÌ„t God forbid but they shal coÌ„demne the vvorld the vvhich signifying he saith and if in you c. He saith not of you but in you As who should say the iust condemnation of these that are the vvorldlings shall shine in the saluation of you that are the Saints This therefore proueth 〈◊〉 such worldly iudgemeÌ„t as you pretend Secondly you abuse S. Paule as though in speaking of the Saints he spake onely of the spirituall Pastors wheras he speaketh in generall of the whole congregation Are Saintes and Christians only Priestes with you this is both manifest wresting of S. Paule and shamelesse arrogancie in your selues But you say the Churche hath it by the spirituall povver vvherby vve be made the sonnes of God and coinheritors of Christe We graunt you Master Saunders But doth this spirituall povver belong onely to Priestes you say it appeareth hereby vve maye exercise secular iudgementes whome meane you by this vve Master Saunders your selues that are the Priestes But S. Paule speaketh of Christian people and not of the Pastors only yea least of al of the Pastors Wherevpon saith Haimo out of Gregorie on these wordes choose him that is contemptible Secundum Gregorium c. According to Gregorie by contemptible persons vvee may vnderstande secular men hauing the knovvledge of humaine lavves and in their personages being honorable who in comparison of them that vnderstand the diuine lawes and pierce the mysteries of the holy Trinitie are contemptible and simple although they be faithful â–ª And according to this sense vvee muste reade it affirmatiuely bicause suche are to be appointed vvhiche of the Canons are called the Sonnes of the Church I sprake it to your shame bycause althoughe I commaunde it not you ought to haue done it And therefore he commaundeth such to be ordeyned bycause they that ought to serue on the altare and meditate Diuine Sermons and giue the vvorde of preaching to the people ought to estraunge themselues from secular businesse and iudgements Likewise saithe your Cardinall Hugo The glosse calleth them contemptible that are not apt to great offices in the Church as to preach and teach And this is an argument that my lord the Pope ought not to appoint Masters of Diuinitie to be Iudges of temporall things To your shame saith the glosse that those should examine earthly causes that haue gotten the vvisedome of outvvarde things But those that are enryched vvith spirituall giftes ought not to be entangled vvith earthly businesse that vvhile they be not driuen to inferior goods they may be able to attende on the higher goods Hovvebeit this must greatly be cared for that they that shine in spiritual goods forsake not vtterly the businesse of their vveake brethreÌ„ Thus your Papists theÌ„selues are of a contrarie iudgement to you M. Saunders besides all your Popes and Councels Canons that the spirituall Pastors should not be these Iudges in secular things that here Saint Paule speaks on To wrest therefore these wordes spoken of any faithfull Christian only to your Priestes to wring this sentence from the state of the Churche then being without any faithfull Magistrate to the time now when they haue many and those not choseÌ„ of theÌ„selues but ordeyned of the higher Magistrate to wrythe it from the iudgements and taking vp of their petit quarels to the deposing or setting vp of Kings or altering kingdomes is clean beyond the meaning of S. Paule an euident violence iniurie to Gods word Now vpoÌ„ this sentence thus wrested you procéed to your argumeÌ„t saying For their goodes are so muche subiecte to the ecclesiasticall povver that it is lavvfull for the Churche of priuate men to ordeine Magistrates that should iudge of secular causes and not only of ecclesiasticall But no man can passe more righte to an other than he hath himselfe Therefore the Churche vvhich hath povver to make them Iudges that vvere priuate men before hath much more it selfe ouer those secular causes receiued povver by the Ministers of God that as Aaron are called to the
publike mynisterie of Iesu christ For vvhatsoeuer is of Christe giuen in common to the Christian common vveale is giuen by them that exercise the Legacie for Christe and are Stevvards of his mysteries Your argument is this VVhatsoeuer is giuen in common of Christ to his Church he giues it by the Pastors But povver to make Magistrates and Iudges is giuen in coÌ„mon of Christ to his Church Ergo it is giuen by his Pastors But no man can passe more right to an other than hee hath himselfe The Pastors passe this right and povver of being Magistrates and Iudges in secular matters to another Ergo the Pastors haue right and power of being Magistrates and iudge themselues in secular matters Al these parts coÌ„clusions of these reasons I vtterly deny Master Saunders First the 〈◊〉 is fall 〈◊〉 â—…nsample Christe giues temporall peace in common to his Churche he giue â–ª plentie of fruites and seasonable weather in common to his Churche he giues health and strength of bodie in common to his Church he giues good Magistrates Kings and Princes in coÌ„mon to his Church he giues good lawes natural ciuill and municipall in common to his Churche all these are povvers giueÌ„ of Christ in coÌ„mon to the ChristiaÌ„ common vveale so well as to any other common vveale not Christian but they are not giuen by the ministerie of the spirituall Pastors The maior therefore is not true Secondly the minor is also false that Christ giueth power to his Church to make Magistrates and Iudges ouer secular matters To some Churches indéed he hath giuen this power and dothe giue it where they orderly doe choose their owne Magistrate But this can not be spoken of the Church indefinitely For the Church in most places thereof hath not the choice of Princes but God either by ordinarie succession or by extraordinarie means placeth them ouer the Church and those Princes place the Iudges Thirdly by the Church is not meÌ„t either the ecclesiastical power or the Pastors that haue that povver For the povver is but Gods gift for the Churches vse and benefite and the Pastors are but parts and members of the Church Fourthly this is false also that they can not passe a right to another that they themselues haue not For euen in the dispensation of their mysteries we maye receiue faythe and grace by their ministerie and yet they be gracelesse and haue no faith themselues And in the solemnization of Matrimonie although the Pastor haue no right to the bryde yet he transferreth the hauing of hir froÌ„ hir friends to the brydegrome so may they be Ministers in the intronizing a Prince passing a power froÌ„ God to him which yet theÌ„selues haue not except you will make them Kings And thus all your rules are false and holde not besides that they be all wrested and cleane from the sense of the sentence cited and therefore no good argument can be framed on them that that can rightly conclude the present purpose But nowe Master Saunders will applye this better and here in the margine he setteth downe in great letters Nota Note to sturre vp the Readers attention to note his application But novve saith he if that nevve Iudges must be made of the Churche rather than vve shoulde goe to lavve in secular causes before the Infidels are not nevve Kings also rather to be made of the Churche than that vve shoulde be compelled to pleade our causes before hereticall and scismatical Kings Nowe you beginne handsomely to frame your argument to your purpose for al this while you did but dallie But if the Reader note this matter as you require him to doe as he shal finde no consequence in your argument so shal he finde rancke treason in your conclusion If the argument were good then bycause the Church in Saint Paules time might choose among themselues arbiters to iudge and take vp their petite matters therefore they might haue chosen nevv Kings also to gouerne them But this coulde they not haue done without treason and rebellion therefore this argument is false Is there no difference Master Saunders betwéene the choosing of an vmpier or an arbiter chosen betwéene two parties of their owne voluntarie to iudge and descide their priuate controuersie and the choosing of a supreme publike Magistrate to gouerne their whole estate Who séeth not that this they might in no wise doe The other they might doe well inoughe And so may any of vs doe also to auoyd the charges and troubles of the lawe although we haue Christian Princes and faithfull Iudges too neither troubling those estates nor our selues and saue our money in our purses and better nourishe charitie in not going to lawe but taking vp the matter at home among our neyghbours quietly May we therefore subtracte our selues from the Iudgement Seate of the publike Magistrate when we are called or enforced by lawe thereto and whye mighte we not if we might choose a newe King when we mislyked the olde No Master Saunders this is further from Saint Paules meaning than was the other Saint Paule giues not the Corinths leaue nor power to erecte vp among them selues a publike Magistrate to flée vnto in their contentions vtterly to forsake the iudgement seates of the heathen Iudges and Princes that did gouerne them Saint Paule speakes of their owne voluntarie taking vp of matters by some indifferent man among them to be chosen as Iudge in this or that brawle betwéene them and woulde not haue them of their owne selfe will in matters that might be well taken vp among themselues to runne to Lawe before heathen Magistrates Wherein although he disalow the disorderly contention of the one yet he disaloweth not withall the orderly authoritie of the other which he confesseth to be giuen of God and he exhorteth all subiectes to obey and that for conscience sake euen the gouernement of the heathen Princes notwithstanding they were Christians that were subiectes Whereas if he had ment otherwise he hadde not onely contraryed himselfe but confirmed the sclaunder of the heathen people that the Christians were Rebelles to their estates And he might haue bene accused of sedition as styrring the people to make nevve Magistrates whiche for them being subiectes was aboue their power to doe And although this crime was layde to Saint Paules charge of sowing sedition yet could they neuer iustly proue it on him his doings and writings testifyed the contrarie with what care he labored to kepe the Christians in obedience Who otherwise might here vpon haue had great occasion of choosing nevve Princes pretending they were Christians and made frée by Christe and therefore ought not haue suffered themselues to liue in the heathen Princes bondage Which fréedome of Christian libertie least they should haue thus abused to carnall licenciousnesse and disturbed the order and quietnesse of their estate Saint Paule so often and so earnestly exhorteth them vnto obedience Neither they did so euer
vnderstande this present exhortation to haue the libertie or power to forsake the heathen Magistrates obedience and iudgements and to erecte a nevv Magistrate and Iudge to rule among them For this had bene the readie pathe to all Rebellion And to proue that this is the readiest way to Rebellion sée howe Master Saūders gathereth hereon that nevve Kings are to be made of the Churche rather than vve shoulde be compelled to pleade our causes before hereticall and scismaticall Kings So that if the Prieste shall say the King is an heretike or a scismatike not only the people must so account him but they muste account him no longer to be their King they muste not be compelled to appeare in his Courtes and Consistories they must pleade no cause at all before him or his Iustices but must forthwith choose a nevv King to be their gouernour Howe far this is differing from Saint Paules doctrine from this sentence from subiectes obedience and howe neare to set all the world in an vprore I dout not but if this Nota that M. sand sets it out withal be wel noted it wil not only bréede in the Readers mindes a note of suspicion of priuie conspiracies trayterous packing but openly shew a manifest proclamatiō of plain rebelliō Now to proue that the subiects should thus rebel he sheweth the dangers that should ensue if they should remaine in their obedience For certaine it is that there is more danger of heretical Kings thā is of vnfaithful Iudges For vnfaithful Iudges do not iudge but of matters of this world and that according to the law either of nature which is alwayes right or ciuil vvhiche is seldome vvrong Moreouer vvhat if I suffered vvrong at the tribunall of a Pagane Iudge the losse is small to suffer the spoyle of tēporal goods vvhich good men beare vvith ioye But heretical Kings compel their subiects casting away the catholike faith to embrace their heresie the whiche can not be done vvithout the detriment of eternall saluation It is altogither lavvfull to the Churche of Christe to remoue from his gouernement an heretical a scismatical a symoniacal King and to conclude to remoue him that vvill not amende himselfe and to place another among the Christians in his rome This argument is drawne from the danger of suffering the king is alreadie answered diuers times The lawiers woulde briefly say to this better suffer a mischiefe than an inconuenience but were this an inconuenience too we may not take away one inconuenience with an other greater inconuenience for ther are conuenient remedies of pacience constancie against these inconueniences and not rebellion althoughe the inconuenience were muche greater than M. Sād makes it And yet to aggrauate the same he makes cōparison of a King and a Iudge as though the Iudge represented not the king He compareth the daunger of the losse by the one and by the other as thoughe the heathen Iudges and Princes dealt not also in cases of Religion Who although they were deceiued herein yet they conuented people before them for Religion to driue them from the worship of God to the worship of their Idols and laboured by all persuasions and meanes they coulde to bring them to their Religiō And verie many they brought to their Idolatrie which was more thā the losse of temporal goods euē the detriment of eternal saluatiō Neither did they vse their iudgemēts always according to the lavv of nature or the ciuil neyther doth the one iudge alvvayes right considering the great corruption of nature chiefly in the heathen neyther did the other sildome wrong but often wrong among them neither medled the ciuill Lawe of the Pagans onely with matters of temporall goodes and of this vvorlde but also with matters of the worlde to come and therefore there was further daunger of the iudgementes of those heathen Princes and vnfaythefull Iudges than here Maister Saunders woulde séeme to acknowledge there was mitigating all that he can the daunger ensuing from them to aggrauate the greater daūgers from naughtie Christian Princes But he nede not run to these vntruthes to aggrauate his comparison For we denie not but that if the Prince were such a wicked Prince as he speaketh of it were in dede very daungerous to the faithfull subiects vnder him and so muche the more daungerous that he pretendeth to the faithfull to be a faithfull Prince and is not But what a daungerous doctrine is this that the people should therfore rebell and reuolt vnto another Might the Christiā people in the primitue Church for all the daūger of eternall life that they and all the faithfull were in when the heathen Princes would haue them worship Idols which is as ill as heresie when the heretical scismaticall Emperors being Arians Monothelites c. in the ancient time compelled their subiectes casting away the Catholike faith to embrace their heresies might they remoue thē from their gouernment and place another in his roome ouer the Christians and that that shoulde streight be heresie which the B ▪ of Rome should say were heresie he should be a scismatike that should not consent to him Yea he must be deposed for symonie too ▪ by symonie forsooth we must vnderstand that if the Prince do appoint and inuest a Bishop then streight he is a simoniake and must out of hande be depesed What a greater daūger is here not onely to Christiā Princes but to all the Church of Christ whose sauegarde is here pretended But if we reason of daūgers the greatest daūger of all is of the Pope himselfe his prelates the more daunger that Princes people be thus beguiled by them and yet the king may not meddle with them although his duetie neuer so much require he hath good warrant in the scripture 〈◊〉 remoue them so haue not they of him were they neuer 〈◊〉 good and were he a great deale worse than M. Saunders makes him But Maister Saunders will nowe proue that the Bishops haue warrant out of the scripture for them and once againe he alleageth the example of King Saul and Samuel For if the kingdome of Saul stoode not euen for this that he obserued not the precept of Samuel in wayting for him seuen dayes before he sacrificed Yea if the Lord cast off Saul that he shuld not be the king bicause he fulfilled not also another precept of the Lorde declared by the Ministerie of Samuel in killing Agag if for this disobedience of Saul while he yet raigned Samuel was bidden to anoynt Dauid to be the King of the Iewes and Samuel did it priuily in Bethleem Neither after the holy Ghost sent downe from heauen the spirituall power of the Church can now be lesse than in times past was in the Synagog we must now also confesse that that King which shall dispise to heare the Lord speaking by the mouth of the highest Bishop maye
sayings Stapl. 62. b 63. a M. Sta. vnlyke similitude to disburthen M. Fecknham Howe falsely M. Sta. chalengeth vs for heretikes for leauing oute an article of the common crede in the Apologie How cunning M. Stap. himselfe â—…s in the coÌ„mon creede M. Stap. notes the Bishop and other for graÌ„mar and â—…o what a Grammarian he shewes himselfe to be Contr. Valent. lib. 1. cap. 2. lib. 3. cap. 4. De praescript haereticorum Fol. 423. li. â—… Diuis 159. cap. 4. M. Stap. taketh on him to teache the bishop his Catechisme Stap. fol. 423. M Sta. in saying the Common crede leaueth out these words And in Iesus Christe our Lorde Stapl. 423. a M. Sta. leaueth out againe in saying the coÌ„mon Creede these wordes crucified dead and buryed Stapl. 423. a Aâ—… other article left oute by M. Sta. in saying the common creede That he sitteth at the right haÌ„d of God the father almighty Whether Cardinall Hosi ' be iustly chalenged to maintain the SweÌ„k feldians heresiâ—… or no. Stap. 63. 2. Stap. 63. â—… The Dâ—…natists did not simply refuse the oldâ—… â–ª testamente as the Manichees did but subâ—…ly as the Papistes do Aug. de haereâ—… Ad quod vult Stapl. 63. a. b The seconde motiue that moued the Bishop to chalenge M Feck to followe the Donatisteâ—… Supra pag. Diuis 18. pag. 11. How the Donatists and Papistes denie the Princes gouernement in Ecclesiasticall cau ses and refâ—…rie it onely to the clergie What the Papistes meane by the Church M. Sta. reâ—…oketh his grauÌ„t The Donatists exclaming on the Princes for Ecclesiasticall causes argueth that the supreme gouernemente of them was in the Princes Stap. 63. b Stapl. 63. b M. Stapl. example of the Princis punishing an honest man for a theefe A theefe in christen religion Iohn 10. M. Sta. simili tude returned vpon himself M. Stapl. letteth go the testimonies of S Aug. alleaged by the Bishop Stapl. 63. b Winton pag. 12. b. The speciall 〈◊〉 oâ—… christian princis Further examples of the old Testament alledged by S. Aug. for princes dealing in ecclesiasticall matters Stapletons order to this di uision Stap. 65. a Number of testimonies Whereto the former testimonies of S. Aug. were alleaged Wherto serue the authorities present Here M. Stapl. confesseth that Princes ought to make lâ—…wes for the â—…rance of Christes religion The Papistes denying the Queene to make lawes and say no catholike denyeth it denye them selues to be catholikes The Papistes subtill meaning in theyr plaine speaches The holde of a Papists worde and the holde of a weat Eele by the tayle Howe trimly the Papists and we do here agree in words See a subtill â–ª Papist At a dead life well fare a papists shift M. Stapl. renueth an olde knacke of Arrius Howe finely M. Stapl. can turne his tale Stapl. 65. a. 65. b Belyke M. Sta. wantes good neighbours Stapl. 65. b Here M. Stapl. bewrayeth all the â—…etche of his former graunte Howe craâ—…tyly M. Stap. limited the Princes making of lawes All M. Stapletons ioly grauÌ„t to Princes is nowe come to nothing but to make them the clergies slaughtermen and droyles M. Stapletons fayâ—…e texte and foule glose Stapl. 65. b. How S Augustine acknowledged the Prince M. Stap. telleth of all this that August wrote but what this all this is he duist not vtter August contr Gaudent epist. 2 li. 2. câ—… 26. Epist. 50. The testimonies of S. Aug. to proue the princes dealing in ecclesiastical causes to reach further than making lawes for punishing heretâ—…kes Epist. 48. M. Stapl. wold returne S. Augustines words vppon vs. Stapl 65 b. How sure the Papistes make all pointes againste the Protestantes Stap. 65. b Howe Princes punished deprauers of religion in saint August tyme. Stapl. 65 b. The Princes lawes for blasphemers The Princes carefull prouiding Stap. 65. b M. Stapletons strong proues Stapl. 65. b. Contempte of Sacraments Popish Sophistâ—…e can make 7. of 2. Stapl 65 b. Councels Matth. 26. Ioho 11. The Papistes maynteyn coÌ„demned doctrines 1. Tim. 4. Stap. 65. b Howe the Bishop called the Papists Donatistes Howe darke and subtilly M. Stapl. speaketh How farre the examples of the olde Testament stretche to directe christian princes M. Stapl. will proue that we denie that whi che we affirm What it is that we affirme of the Princes authoritie Stapl. 66. â—… Stap. 65. a Who bee the true Donatistâ—… for saying Princes maye not punishe in causes of Godâ—… religion M. Stapl. himself cleereth vs of that he falsly burdeneth vs. Stapl. 66. a Howe Luther sayd Faith can not be forced Croyses and Turkishe warres The question whether Princes maye punishe heretikes by death How the Papistes proue vs to be heretikes The Princes dutie where any are chalenged to be heretikes An inuectiue gainst M. Fox M. Foxes boke and B. Iewels great eyesores to the Papists Stap. 66. a. Sir Thomas Hitton priest False slaunders and malicious misseconstructions of the faithfull Luc. 23. Matth. 26. Iohn 19. Act. 6. Hewe the Papistes deale with the Protestantes and their articles Math. 5. The vneuen dealing of the Papistes Sir Thomas Hitton priest no Donatist Sir Iohn Oldcastell Stap. 66. b. â—… Stap. 66. b. M. Stapletons weake argument Maister Foxes synceritie in the Papistes falshoodes Sir Iohn Oldcastle proued no Donatist Sir Thomas More himselfe mislyked the punishment of manslaughter in many offen ceâ—… The aunciente punishment of of heretikes Declar. Erasmi tit de puniendis her 76. 77. The myld spirit of popishe Bishoppes and Abbots S. August opinion of the pu nishement of heretikes The Circumcelions Punishement by the purse Banishment The popishe crueltie The difference herein betwen Erasmus and the Popishe Bishops S. Hieroms opinioÌ„ herein and the resons mouing him thereto The Papistes in crueltie come neerest the Donatistes Eras. decla tit de pun hâ—… The mercie of the Gospell Though the Gospell taketh not awaye politike lawes or punishmentes yet is there a 〈◊〉 betweene them and the Gospell The Sorbonistes coÌ„fession In declar bras tit de pun haer Howe the Papistes yet neerer resemble the Donatistes Stap. 66. b. 67. a Stap. 67. a How M. Feck yeldes not to the examples of the olde testament and yet yelding to the new Testa ment is comprehended by it though he comprehended it not Pag. 14. a. M. Stapleton cap. 7. fol. 68. a M. Stapl. order in this diuision Stapl. 68. a. M. Sta. now at the length is driuen to graâ—…t Princes some regiment in Ecclesiasticall causes M. Stapleton graunteth also to Princes supreme gouernement in all ecclesiasticall causes In natural and ordinarie propositions the indefinite betokens the vniuersall Stap. 68. â—… â–ª M. Stap â–ª confesseth that the Bishop hath proued the full issue in question betweene M. Fecknham and him Stap. 68. a M. Sâ—…apl grant of all that the Bishop hathe hitherto alleaged Esai 49. Whether the Bishops examples and allegations beeing granted of M. Stapl. reache home or no. The prince supreme gouernour of all and
vp another Robins hoods lawe How readie popishe priests are to stuâ—…e vp rebellion sand pag. 79. The Princes throne called the chaire of pestilence The Popishe Priests professe to remoue the Prince by whatsoeuer meanes they can A pestilent doctrine Sand. 78. Hebrs 13. What the Popishe Priestes watch for 2. Pet. 5. sand pag. 79. sand pag. 7â—… The danger of euil Princes commoditie of godly Princes to their people Iob. 34. Sand. 79. 3. Reg. 12 The example of Ieroboam that M. sand alledgeth maketh cleane against him 3. Reg. 13. 14 3. Reg. 12. He that will not become a traytor is not worthy with M sand the name of a maÌ„ sand pag. 79. Act. 20 Tit. 3. No good argument from the Priestes iudging of the Prin ces doctrine to his iudging of the Princes diademe Act 20. Priestes corrupt and blind iudgements Matth. 23. M. sand fallation a secunduÌ„ quid ad simpli citer Hovv far the Papistes make kings inferior to Byshops The fable of the Lyon and Fox sand pag 79 Psalm 2. 1. Cor. 2. Dani. 2. 7. The heauenly and earthly kingdome are not so ioyned that the Byshops may be earthly kings The Apostles and Martyrs deposed no kings Sand pag. 79. To this purpose saith PoÌ„ponius â—… â–ª Cum quid mutuum de reb creditis M. Saunders obiection and answere Whether a Bishop may take a kingdome vpon him pro perly or vnproperly The Princes promise The breach of the Popes and of his Prelates promises The Princes breach of promise authoriseâ—…h not Bishops to depose him The example of Saule and Dauid What bishops may do or not do to princes hauing broken their promises Howe Princâ—… haue bene deposed What rule may be gathered by suche deposingâ—… of Princes Deposing of Princes by the Prelates practises Heb. 10. What subiects may do when the Prince breakes his promise Rom. 1. The right meanes that the B may vse when the prince breaketh his promise The combate betwene the Cardinall of Columne and the Pope The princes promise in theâ—… baptisme The Bishops promise in Paptisme is the same that the princes is The papistes shift to kâ—…pe their liuings for all their promise broken The priestes partialitie The contracte made to christ in Baptisme The king promised not to renounce his kingdome when he was Baptised The subiect promised not to renounce his Prince at Baptisme D. Stories error in defending that subiects misliking their princes may forsake them What we all promised in Baptisme The example of a contracte in mariage Math. 14. Promise brech in mariage As the priest 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the man the woman so the B. caÌ„not separate the prince the subiect sand pag. 79. 80. 1. Cor 10. Math. 19. M. Sâ—…ers examples of King Lucius King Clodoueâ—…s The state of infants not like these Princes M. Saund presupposals of these two princes are false King Lucius his baptisme Aimonius li. 1 de gestis Francorum ca. 16. The order how King Clodoueâ—…s was baptiâ—…ed Here was no sech conditioÌ„s of deposing exacted of the Bishop in the Princes baptisme The sâ—…uerie that M. Saund. woulde bring Princes into pasieth the Spa nishe â—…quisition The promises and threates of God that the auncient prophets declared vnto kinges M. Saunders presuppose admitted The Popishe Bishops seeke more than the Christian fauh The kings examination of the Bishops condition M. Saunders presupposall admitted once agayne The kings diligent trauell to discharge his charge performe the condition The kingâ—…â—…ration Sand pag 80. Daniel 7. Esai 60. Luc. 10. Math. 16. Daniels prophecie wrested M sand to be suspected of beeing a Milenarie here â—…ke â—…say wrested The Prophete speaketh of the Church the Papists applie it to the priests The glory that the prophet vnderstandeth mystically the Papists vnderstand it literally The Papistes the Iewes sored in one error of dreaming after worldly glory â–ª Christs senteÌ„cs wrested Luc. 10. Iude. epist. Christes sentencâ—… wrested Math. 16. The gates of hell sand pag 80. Rom. 1. Domesticall forain enimies What a perillous enimie the Pope is Whether the king or the B. in M. sand presupposal be more enimie to the Church â—…pe can Christes â—…er â—…tth 4. he cause of â—…aith â—…edience of What thepâ—…inces will ought to be Sand. 80. 〈◊〉 14. Byshops translatioÌ„s of king domes this way or that way Whether the kings promise in baptisme stretch to suffering the Bishop to depose him The kings mi nistration to Christ and his Churche Hovv the king oughte to forsake his life or his kingdom 1. Cor. 3. Lucae 21. Luke 14. sand pag 80. Christian king domes are not mere seculer 1. Reg. 15. 2. Paral. 26. 1. Reg. 15. Leo in epist. 2â—… alias 75. Supra pag. M. Saunders contradiction and legerdemayâ—… M. Saunders seeth now that ChristiaÌ„ Princes are spirituall The Churches disposition of things indifferent To whome in the church the disposition of indifferent things belongeth Things meere spirituall and things spirituall in some respect Meere spiritual thinges may not be otherwise disposed What kinde of thing the state of a King or kingdome is The Churches freedome mysticall The Popishe Churche 1. Reg. 15. The example of Samuels anoynting of Saule M Saunders confutes him selfe The Churche coulde not depose Saule though he were a tyrante and an Apostata Prouerb 8. Dan. 2. Sand. 81. M. Saunders bious conclusion The Bishops ministerie in the making of the king Samuel Pope Leo his sentencâ—… sand pag. â—… Chrysost. Homil 4. in verba Esaiae The kingeâ—… anoynting In Extrauag de Maiorit obed Vnam sanctam The Bishops consecratioÌ„ of a king The diuerse significations of oyle in the scriptures No necessitie of anoynting Kings In Extanag de Maiorit c sand pag. 81. 〈◊〉 1. Ioh. 20. Epiphanius in Hares 29. 1. Cor. 15. M. sand case if Christ were here bodily conuersant in the earth M. Saunderâ—… case vnrtue Act. 3. Math. 24. Christes humaine nature not in the Sacrament If Christ vvere in hiâ—… humaâ—…n nature in the earth vvhat superioritie shoulde be giuen him What kingdoÌ„e Christ vvoulde take vpon him he vvere here in earth How the pope vvould order him 2. Thess. 2. 2. Thess. 2 The Churches promotion Math 20. What povver the ministers haue Math. 28. Iohn 20. Difference of povver Glossa in Lyra super Ioh. Epiphanius in Haeres 29. Sand. 81. 82. Math. 20. Gal. 5. Hebr. 10. Ephes. 4. Hebr. 13. Math. 28. 1. Cor. 4. 1. Cor. 5. 2. Cor. 2 7 Math. 16. Rom. 8. The difference and vnion of both povvers temporall and spirituall Supra pag. 791. Supra pag. Hovv the povver of all estates are vnder the pastors povver and hovv not Hovv they are all vnder the kings povver hovv not How â—…ere is no difference in these povvers Hovv there is a difference in these povvers The mixture of these povvers sand pag. 82. 1. Cor. 2. Rom. 10. Ciuil gouernors from the beginning as auncient as spirituall pastors M. sand malice against the name of