him that faulteth that waies to be no meÌ„bre off the churche S. Paule found greater scismes in the churche off Corinthe then those were and yet he rebuked them withe an other spirite then yow vse neiter dothe he cut them of from the church but in the spirite off mildnes restoreth them And iff yow had learned that yow ought not to breake a brused reede nor quenche the smoking flaxe yow would haue dealte otherwise then yow doe Yf so be that the churche of England were reformed as yow would beare vs in hande and the Bishops by castinge owt off their ministers owt off their churches had not giuen the occasion of suche departure the departure had bene more vntollerable And therfore as muche as yow add to the amplisyinge of their faulte so muche yow encrease off the sinÌ„e of the bishops which withowt iust cause gaue occasion of that division There is great difference betwene the preaching off the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the preaching off those brethren for the Anabaptistes and other heretikes preachinges be with the vpholding off their false opinions and doctrine contrarie to Scripture werwith yow are not able to charge them in the least pointe but that in all doctrine whiche yow preach truely they preach the same withe yow And vvhere yow saie Disiuncrely that oftentimes the word of god is preached amongest the Anabaptistes and heretikes or the Sacramentes administred in those congregations which yow make Anabaptistes or like vnto them bothe the worde was preached and the Sacramentes Ministred togither And therfore if yow did purposely put that Or rather then and then whilest yow vvrote your conscience offred yow a manifest difference betwene the Anabaptistes and those brethren And iff yow did not put yt purposely but meane that in the conuenticles off the Anabaptistes and heretikes bothe the vvord off god is preached and his sacramentes administred speaking so precisely I would gladlie know off yow vvhat difference yow make betwene the conuenticles of the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the churche off God seing that the preaching off the word and ministring off the sacramentes are the infallible notes thereoff Ind this ought to haue giuen yow occasion off a softer worde yff yow had not bene driuen by the tempeste of your affection rather then led by any quiet and staied iudgement off the truthe Because it is your oulde wont and either yowe can not or wil not proue or improue your sayinges by the word off god I will not stand to note how that vppon Augustins worde onelie withowt any proufe owt off the word off god yow haue here cut a numbre from the churche yf yow bind so harde and locke so fast yow should haue brought the bonde and Keye off the word off god that the conscience which onely looketh vnto the word off god seinge it selffe in that daunger might be carefull to seeke how to be deliuered The glosse and the Text varie here For the one in saying that it standeth me good name vpon to bring them owt which are free wil men and holde consubstanstantiation semeth to denie that there be any suche The other by saying that theÌ„re are not so manye and that they are not iustified do the indirectlie confesse it And if yt were not confessed the thinge is so notorious that albeit I name them not yet I nede not to feare the supition off vntruthe in that which hathe so manie witnesses And where yow saye there are not so many off them as off those whom yow most falsely and slaunder ouslie call puritanes As I reioice therin in the behalffe off the churche off England so it standeth not by any diligence good foresight or discipline off yours that the churche swarmeth not with them seinge they are suffred to haue the highest places in the churche vvhere vvith the leuaine off their false doctrine they may sowre not one towne as it vvere thre peckes but vvhole shires as it vvere a vvhole heape or fatte or other off the largest measures off the lordes meale in our countrey And so althoughe they be not by wordes mainteined yet they are in deede not onelie mainteined but also by suche sufferance in those places rewarded Vnto the nine next sections I answere nothinge In the laste section 45. pag. vnto the places off Saint Paul vvherby I proue that yt is no breache off trew Christianitie to alter in iudgement he answereth that the Apostles meaning is not that men shoulde be dailie altering their iudgement and broching new opinions which is no answer to the question For althowghe we maie not dailie broche newe opinions yet vve owght to correcte our oulde errors as often as we are made vnderstande them So that vnles he will saye that those which beleue the gospell are vvithowte the daunger off error in thinges perteining to the gouernement off the churche c. or that when they knowe their errors they shoulde not amende them boothe which are absurde it muste needes folowe that he goeth abowte to abuse the reader vvhiche vppon that vve haue chaunged Iudgement vvoulde drawe vs into the suspition off lightnes and vnconstancie And seing the churche off Englande chaunged the booke of common praier twise or thrise after yt had receiued the knowledge of the gospell and allwaies corrected some thinge off that whiche yt helde for good before either the answerer must condemne those alterations as childishe and vnconstant or els he must confesse that a whole churche lightened wythe the knowledge off the gospell and established in a certeine order off gouernement maye with owte feare off suspition off that liÌ„ghtenes which he dooth surmise displace the former order and place an other Vnto the 4. nexte I answer nothing sauing that where the glosse chargeth me with contrarietie I desire the reader to consider what contraririe or what colour off contraritie there is betwene thes sayinges the churche can not longe continevve vvithovvt common vvelthes and the churche maye be established vvithovvt a Christian magistrate Yff I had saide that the churche might be established witheowt a magistrate then there had bene some likelyhood off the contrarietye he surmyseth But he shoulde vnderstande as longe as their be magistrates althowghe they be not onely vnchristian but Tyrannicall and persequuting yet the blessing which the lorde geueth vnto his owne ordinance so ouercometh all their malice that ther ceaseth not come euen from that disordered gouernement some thinge to the preseruacion of the churche The answer which his glosse asketh for towching churlishe ansvvering althowghe yt deserued none is page 177. and he coulde not be ignorante but I referred him in the answer to the seuenth article Vnto the firste parte off the laste Section page 47. I answer nothing For answer vnto the later parte towching the place of Timothe wherby he wolde proue that men maye offer them selues to the ministerie I will referre the reder to the treactise off the discipline off â—he churche lately set forthe where this is answered
abowt to make men beleue that I haue some thinge that I would not haue men vnderstand And althoughe he confesse he vnderstand it not yet he reprehendeth it and so it commeth to him which S. Iude chargethe the false teachers withe in his tyme that he speaketh euill off that he knoweth not He asketh here for examples and they stick still in his throate vnswalowed and vndigested whiche the admonition gaue him when he hathe ouercome those then let him aske for more examples And wheras he ascribethe as a great absurditie to vs that we make the order off chusinge the minister before the eldershipp and gouernment be established somewhat diuerse from that which is before putting this florishe vppon it that we allowe off all thinges owt off order thoughe against our owne order so it be against common order I will not goo abowte to confute that here or to shew what good cause there is off this diuersitie it being sufficiently declared in that booke whiche togither withe the right forme off gouernment commaunded owt off the worde off god notethe the disorders off our churche onelie I will aske M. D. whether the consecration as it is called off the Archbishops and Bishopps at the first entrie off the Queenes maiestie vvas the same altogither vvithe that vvhiche hathe bene sithens And iff there were a difference betwene that and this then in this great desire off his to stricke he care not how nor after What sorte his strooke is fallen vppon him selffe and vpon those whom he vndertaketh to defend That the wordes off the admonition haue not that sense which is here ascribed vnto yt I haue shewed in the proper place neither will I touche it here althoughe the A. set it twentie tymes before me Yff he haue any thing to saye against that whiche I haue said there it shall be considered Althoughe here the D. was taken eueÌ„ in the verie acte of false coyninge yet he shameth not to denie yt and withe that bloudnes and foreheade that he is readie also to accuse him that taketh him withe the manner He biddeth me peruse more diligentlie the wordes off M. Bullingar I haue perused them and set them downe first in latin and then in Englishe and iff I haue not turned them truelye shew wherin I haue faulted and iff they be truelie turned then I demaunde againe where these wordes be founde in any of those leaues of Bullinger whiche yow quote That they could not teache truelie because they had great liuinges Yow saye they be word for word there shew but the same sense or meaninge that is to saye that this off M. Bullingers that the Anabaptistes said they could not teache the truthe vvhiche had any liuinge is all one withe that whiche yow haue set downe that they can not teache the truthe which haue great liuinges And iff yow can not shew it your falsification remaineth increased withe the open facing of an vntruthe In deede if yow can put owt all men eyes aÌ„d take away froÌ„ vs our senses and all light off grammer and off the knowledge off signification and proprietie off wordes it will not be impossible for yow withe suche confident speaches as yow vse to make vs beleue that all is turned vpside downe and that the earth hangeth ouer our heades and the heauens are vnderneath our feete but yow deceiue your selffe if yow thincke that yovve can beare downe the truthe so or that yow can hide falshoode by adding another vnto yt wherby it is made bigger and more easie to be sene then before The place added owt off M. Zuinglius Ecclesiastes maketh nothing to the saluinge off your falshoode and how farre our men as it pleasethe yow to call them are farre from all suche sayinges I haue before declared Yff yow shew as yow saye that I do giue to litle vnto the magistrate I will confesse my faulte and confesse my felse detter vnto yow for yt As for the cleanelines off my termes which I vse they are not so foule as the thinges wherunto they are applied and the prophet Malachy and S. Paule vsed them in honester matters then these are so that iff the phrase off the Apostles and Prophetes be manerly enoughe there is lesse godlinesse in yow which in me houe thus accused them off inciuilitie Vnto the nexte section pag. 40. I answere not To the 44. sect pag. 41. I graunt the corruptions off the churche of England to be suche that man in absteininge from the pollutions theroff owght not so seuer him selfe from those open assemblies wherein the eternall worde off the Lorde God is preached and the Sacramentes administred althoughe not in that puritie which they owght to be But I saye againe that the name off conuenticles is to light and conteÌ„ptuous for those meetiÌ„ges For here in is to be coÌ„sidered for what cause they departed Which was not for the mis likinge off any thinge which Christ ordeyned but throughe the mislike off that which Antechrist had browght in not as the Anabaptistes did and the D. surmiseth they did for that they iudged them selues pure and others vnpure but that they feared that their presence where suche corruptions were should be allowance or confirmation off them not so muche forthe hatred off the estate off the churche off England as forthe loue that they had to a better nor so muche for the hatred off the Ministers whiche were vniustly set ouer them as for the loue off those which were vnlawfullie by the Bishoppes taken from them Thedorete declareth how the Catholikes which mainteined the faithe of the Nicenc councell throughe affectioÌ„ to their teachers deuided and seuered them selues into seuerall coÌ„paines will the. A. faie that all their meetinges were conuenticles iff he do he speakethe farre otherwise off them then Theodorete and yet that diuision continued 86. yeares And iff this be off no authoritie whith yow yet I would gladlie vnderstande what yow vvill answere to the sentence off M. Caluin which yow haue alleadged your selffe pag. â—1 where he saithe This honor is meete to be giueÌ„ to the vvorde off god and to the Sacramentes that vvhersoeuer vve see the vvorde off God truelie preached and the Sacraments vvithovvt superstition Ministred there vve maye conclude vvithovvt all controuersie the church to be Iff this meeting withe some disorder be the church off god how is it a conuenticle Besides that it ought to haue bene considered off yow whether they continued in that diuision and whether being taught and shewed their error they did obstinatelie perseuer according to whiche circunstance that off Augustine owght to be expounded for not euerie one which departethe for any cause whatsoeuer from that vvhiche is the churche off God by and by is to be accoumpted no membre of the churche For seing that heresie is more heynous then a scisme and yet heresie dothe not cut a man from the churche onlesse he remaine obstinate muche lesse can a scisme cause forthwith
great liberalitie But this aide which the church getteth by encrease off godlie and hable Ministers receiueth litle thanck But the hatred off this cause draue yow headlonge vpon them as your aduertismentes vvhich followe doo declare As there are some among them that fauour this cawse so there are some that like not off it And yet seing they haue ioined togither yea vvhich is verie straunge made great sute vnto the Bishops that they might of there owne charges prouide suche as in seruinge off them might discharge that vvhich the bishop hath charged him selfe with your suspition off spoilinge the church might haue had a fitter lighting place then vpon the Innes off courte Thus muche against your disordered suspition not altogether from my purpose for it shall serue to shew wherupon I conceiued so good hope of them and off other the gentrie off the realme vvhich haue in diuerse places made the same contribution Yf any haue forsaken the ministerie withowt iust cause they are giltie off a horrible fault but I see yow accounte them forsakers off the Ministerie vvhich yow haue thrust owt suche is your equitie to vvhipp them owt and for going owt also And if they hould any off your tenthes and would be counsailed by me they should yelde them into your handes least in beinge partaker off your non residencie they drink also off plages which belonge therto Wher yow saie I haue not answered in deede if your one mā be wise ād godly and the hūdreth fooles and wicked I haue said nothinge nor meane not now to doo being worthier to be hissed owt then to be answered Yow saie that the 16. Actes ▪ sheweth how well Timothy was thowght off a noble interpretation This is allwaies your fashion either to corrupte the places of the scripture or els to tell that which no man dowbteth of But for what cause dothe S. Luke tell that he was so well thowght of dothe he not shew in the nexte ver to be the same which I haue alledged And therfore Master Beza regardinge the meaninge of S. Luke addeth the word therfore declaringe for what cause that testimoniall was giuen This is your reason S. Luke sheweth how well Timothy was thowght off therfore yt is vntrew that S. Paul to cut of all occasion off euill speache receiued him not but vpon commenmendation off the brethren bothe in Listra and Iconium I doe not saie that S. Paul would not haue receiued him vnlesse that euerie singuler person had giuē testimonie vnto him vvhich was in those places but I shewed how circunspecte S. Paul was in takinge any into any part off the ministerie and how it is not to be thowght that he would haue vppon the Testimonie off one proceeded vnto any election seing that in one which he him selfe was not ignorant what he was to auoid the euill speache off some he was carefull to haue the testimonie off the church As it cā not be proued ▪ that he would not haue receiued him if all had not consemed therto so may it easely be shewed that if the most part had not liked of him he would not haue taken him For besides that it was against S. Paules maner to doo any thing off his owne priuate authoritie in the church off God it had not bene aduisedly done to haue procured the testimonie off the church for the admitting off him into his companie if the churche not consentinge he would haue taken him for that would haue bred a great flame off displeasure betwene the church and S. Paul and should haue bene alwaies shot in the mouthe off the aduersaries against the authoritie of Timothes ministerie yea off Paules also vnto whom he was ioyined for that he had receiued one disaproued of the Christians them selues All which he might by your iudgement easely haue auoided iff either he would haue rested in his owne knowledge off him or els haue addressed him selfe to some one for his testimonie ād not to haue hazarded the alienatiō of the church by com̄ittinge the allowāce of Tim. vnto their testimonial But mine argument is nothinge worthe because it is drawen off an acte off the Apostle Yf this be trew S. Luke was euil aduised to in title his booke the act or deedes of the apostles For it is as much in the ans lāguage as a booke of deedes which christiā mē are not boūd to followe ād yet it was not withowt cause that whē there are cōteined in that booke bothe the doctrine and deedes of the Apost S. Lu. as off the greater parte intitled his booke the deedes or actes of the apostles wherfore dothe he in the begin̄ing of that booke repeating the sum̄e of his gospell by that transition or passage make one bodie of them bothe and bind them as it were in one volume was it not to giue the same authoritie vnto the one a◠to the other to shew that the church had wanted so muche of a perfecte directiō as it wanted of that storie Wherfore dothe he in the begin̄inge shew that our Sau. Christ instructed thē with the cōmaundementes thowchinge his kingdome was it not to teache vs that whatsoeuer they did in buildīge of the church they did it not of there owne heades but by his authoritie And if a cōmanndemēt vnto them be not a commaundemēt vnto vs then haue we no word in the Scripture to warrant baptisme with For the commaundement of baptisinge was spoken to the Apostles onely withowt any further lymytation Fynally vvherfore dothe S. Luke set owt the Apostles fylled vvith the holye Goste Was yt onely to gyue credyte vnto there doctryne that yt should be beliued and not vnto there Actes that they should be folowed yes assuredlie vnto there acres that they should of euerie one according to his vocation where they maye be folowed For the further confirmation wheroff yt ys to be consydered what S. Paul vvrote vnto Tymothe Whom he instructynge how he should behaue hym selffe towardes the troublers off the church dothe not onely call him to the regard off his doctrine but also his conduite or maner off doing Wherby he meant to note his order and maner off doyng in the church off God and publykly for yt could be smally otherwise to the purpose off that vvherfore yt ys alledged Sanct Paules pryuate doynges could gyue Tymothy lytle instruction how he should behaue hym selfe towardes the troublers off the Church To the Phillippians also he callethe the Bishoppes Deacons and whole church both to doing off that which they heard and which they had sene in hym Yf therfore S. Paul will haue the churches followe that vvhich he did amongest them yt ys manifest that the Actes off the Apostles are rules for vs to followe And vnlesse this be admitted I would gladly learne off M. D. Where in all the scripture he can proue the imposition of handes which I think he will not denie to be necessarie And this is that vvhich M. Caluin doth flatly
affyrme that the example off the Apostles in layinge on of handes vpon hym which ys to be ordeined coun terualleth a commaundement and owght to be folowed And if where I haue said the doinges of the Apostles owght to be folowed in the gouernment of the churches he aske how I answere that that they did in especiall cases then is to followed vvhen suche cases fall those which they did ordinarily and generally to be ordinarily and generally followed Those thinges which they did in founding off churches and before they were established to be in life maner vsed those which they did when the churches were established to be in the same maner ordered And to enter yet further into this matter Where he saithe that the argument is nothing worth which is drawen of the facte of the Apostle by the same reason he also condemneth argumentes browght of the factes of our Sauiour Christ and muche more of all other holie men and Prophetes Wherof the scripture is full as when our Sau. Christ proueth that it was lawfull in some case to breake the corporall reste of the Sabothe by the example off Dauids eating of the shew bread As when he excused him selfe that he did not worke his miracles in Nazareth where he was nourished vp rather then in Capernaum and other places by the examples off Elias and Elizeus by which he tawght that a man may attempte nothing without a vocation all these argumentes if M. D. had had the answeringe of them he would as it semeth haue said vnto our sauiour Christ that they are nothing worth I graunt there be some actes of our Sauiour Christ and other godlie men in the scripture vvhich being commendable in them would not be so in vs they hauinge some either extraordinarie spirite or commaundement vvhich we haue not Off which sort Idowbte not but Maister Zuinglius mente this sentence which yow alleadge As would haue bene easely seene yf yow had quoted the place I think he hathe bene alledged ād quoted aboue fortie times before and neuer a sentēce that maketh either whot or coulde to the matters in controuersie or which might once prouoke me to look whether they were so or noo this onely place was somewhat materiall and here it is not quoted But to come againe to those extraordinarie factes I saie that as the spoilinge off the Egyptians by the Israelites at the commaundemēt off God and the killinge of Cosby and Zamry by Phinchas throwghe the inspiration off the spirite off God can not let vs from teachinge generally that theft is vnlawfull that the Magistrate only owght to punishe publike malefactors so those fewe Actes vvhich doon of our Sau. Christ the Apostles and other godlie men are not to be folowed off vs can not let vs to teache generally that there Godly deedes which lie in vs to doo owght to be followed And as I may reason notwithstanding those exāples that he is a thefe because he hath taken that vvhich an other hath labored for against his will and he is a murtherer because he hathe slaine a malefactor being no magistrate for that purpose so I may saie he dothe well for so our Sau. Christ did so did the patriarches and he dothe euill for our Sauiour Christ the Apostles the patriarches did otherwise in that case And he that shall denie this argument vvithowt shewinge some speciall and manifest reason Wherfore it was lawfull for the one to doo that vvhich was not for the other he is vnworthie to be a scholer in the diuinitie scooles much lesse Doctor Yf therfore the Ans would haue by any Good order put me from the possession of this place he should haue shewed that S. Paul of some speciall occasion which falleth not into our ministerie vsed this circumspection in taking suche a clowde off witnesses for the assurance off Timothies good behauior or that there is some generall rule and commaundement to the contrarie But that as he hathe not done so he can not doo there being no one stepp of any such either particular cause or generall rule either mentioned or to be gathered of that place or of any other scripture It must therfore be estemed that S. Paul did that of a generall equitie and common conuēience which owght to be vsed in such graue and weightie matters off the church Yea if M. D. Would haue a litle laid a syde his inordinate desyre off mainteining that which he hath once written he should haue founde iuster cause of this circumspection in our elections then in this For if S. Paul an Apostel endewed vvith suche a gift of discretion of spirites would not take Timothy vvhich had bene browght vpp from his cradell in the knowledge of the Scriptures and had liued in all commendation from his infancie Timothe I say whom he had now knowen as it may be verie probably shewed of some reasonable time into companye of his ministe rye withowt suche diligent circumspection how muche lesse may a Bishop in authoritie inferor vnto him in gifte of discerninge spirites not to be compared receyue into the mynistery vpon the Testymonie off one onelie a man vvhom he hathe not knowen before and vvhatsoeuer he be in knowledge of the word of God far behinde Timothy And yt is not to be let passe for further answere to that which ys alleadged owt of Zuinglius Of a deede or an example to make a lavv that yt hath bene shewed to haue bene the practise of all the Apostles at other tymes in there elections and therfore this is not of one facte to make a rule but off the continuull practise of the Apostles Moreouer by defense of receiuing at the testimony of one onely what doth he els then make as easie an entrance into the highest place off the church off God as a man off any calling and wisdome ioyned with yt would make into one of the least offices of his howse for surely if he haue any regarde vnto the good order of his howse and consider that the misbehauiour off his seruāte vvhom he vvill put in any trust reacheth vnto the dishonour of him selfe and his vvhole howshold he vvill neuer admit him vvhom he knoweth not vvithowt some one mans commendation off whom he is well assured But the law of God in this behalfe is most clere which to the deciding of a vveighty matter in dowbt requireth two witnesses and if it can be thre and namely where the iudgement is of bloude yt expresly forbiddeth that iudgement should passe vpon the Testimonye of one But in the iudgement of a minister where the question is of a great numbre of destruction of bodie and soule and that for euer shall it being dowbtfull be giuē vpō one mās testimonie how sufficient so euer he be Especially seing that there owght to be greater triall and more plentifull witnes in the churche matters thē in ciuil causes which may appeare further by that which S. Paul writeth vnto Tymothie Where he
then will he conclude of an ynch an ell off a week a moneth off a moneth half a yeare and off a case off necessitie make an ordinary licence when S. Paul will haue him which entreth into this warfare off ministry to vnwrap him self off all occasions which may drawe him from yt being already entred he will much lesse suffer that he should ether feek new occasions off absence or take all that are offered Our Sauiour Christ not suffring those whom he called to this worke to goe bury their dead and giue the farewell vnto those off their howse declared sufficiently that they owght to be very vrgent cawses which should drawe the mynister off the word from the charge committed vnto him And when his loue towardes God must be moten by feeding off his flocke committed vnto his charge his long and often voluntary absence must needes proue a small loue in him towardes the lord Which reason being alledged is altogether vnanswered This rare absence and that vppon vrgent cawse may appeare a so by the practise of the church The Councell off Mens decreing that the Bishop vpon sickenes or some other vrgent cause off absence not able to preach should haue some euery sonday and other festdayes to preach in his steed declareth that the vse off the church did nether suffer the bishop to be away but vpon great cawse and that not so much as one holy day withowt a preaching minister to supply his place Augustine saieth that he vvas not absent frō the church of Hippo but cōpelled by sickenes Zuinglius putting difference betweene an Apostel and Pastor saieth that he that doth the office off a Pastor is alvvaies in the povver of the church ouer vvhich he is set and neuer goeth from it Vppon which both testimonies off the scripture and practise off the church yt appeareth how to haue a deputy owght not to be as the D. would haue it an accoustomed thing but rare and vpon vrgent causes Where before he alledgeth for profe off a deputy that there is no shepherd which hath not a boy or a man to supply his absence he owght to vnderstand that our Sauiour Christ is that master shephherd and therefore he being but a seruant can no more set ones his charge then one seruant discharge him self vppon an other Beside what sheepmaister is there of so smal housbandry which will be content that his stipend should be mangled and a portion giuen vnto an hyreling for a monethly or quarterly ouersight off his flocke suffer the shepherd to enioy the rest yt may well be for the poursprofit off the shepherd but it can not be but to the great scare off the sheep considering that not onely the hyred can not by any likelyhood haue that care ouer the flocke which the proper pastor hath but also that all this disputacion tendeth hether that they may haue a reading or other in sufficient substitute which as the shepherdes boy or rather eurr content with a locke or twoo will leaue Maister Person the maister shepherd the rest off the fleese For such is their fidelity that where as in times past the preistes are commaunded to beare the arck vpon their owne shoulders so they should feed their flockes them selues they are not onely content to shift yt from their owne shoulders but as the foolish and idle preistes in committing yt to such vnstilfull gouernours they lay yt vpon a cart hale yt with oxen not with the aduenture but with certeine euent of an ouerthrow Although herein I speak too fauorably off the greatest nombre off them which doo not bestowe so muche coste as a new cart and a draft off oxen come to For they haue learned their howsebandry rather off him which teacheth that alvvaies it standeth a man in least vvhich may be doon by a poore asse And if this carting off the church of God were sent home to our popish Philisthins from whence yt came the kitchen fyre being thereby well abbated this disputation for adeputy would be well cooled For an able man would either for conscience or honesties sake kepe him selfe from this hyrelingship I say consciēce because amongest other corruptions he can not auoide the crime off Simony as they call yt whylest to obteine a place he is content to part stakes with the Pastor Honesty whylest all not seruill minded will rather choose to be free then vnder the yoke off an other mannes seruice His second questiō whether the flocke be not in like daunger in the Pastors absence with leaue as withowt is altogether from the pourpose when it is no lawfull for him nether with leaue nor without leaue to be away with daunger off his flocke His third where I finde in scripture that the Pastor owght to haue leaue off his parish is answered in that I shewed that the Pastors are belonging to their churches and are their seruantes which he altogether passeth by His laste asketh how he cā in his absence haue an able deputy seing he may not be admitted to the ministery which hath not a certeine flocke As though in suche necessitie for so small a time the supply may not be made by the Pastors hard by which is also answer to that he obiecteth pag. 249. Vnto the next diuis I answer not Vpon that many parishes may be ioined in one and fix townes in Fraunce as he saith are committed vnto one Pastor he concludeth that one Pastor may haue diuers flockes which is vnworthy any answer As if a thowsand sheep in one pasture were not easelier and with more cōmoditie tended then three in three sheepgates For as towching the preaching off the word and administring the Sacramentes vnto diuers townes assembled into one bodie vff a church the labour is almoste all one in ten and ten hundred The residue off the charge being commen with him vnto the rest off the elders may be especially in such necessities borne owt by increasing their numbre according to the compas off the churches territorie Yt is also vntrue that he affirmeth I haue saide that the numbre or distance off place is all one And yt is inconuenient that ether a greater numbre be assembled into the bodie off one particular church then can be at once tawght off one mouth or that the numbre should be taken owt off townes farther remoued from the places off the churches resort then that they may haue conuenient accesse Likewise yt is vntrue which he saith off six townes to one Pastor in Fraunce For although one church be assembled owt off diuers townes yet it falleth owt that the least part off those townes perteineth vnto the church and those fewe meet together in one place to receiue the nourriture prouided for them off the Lord by the hand off their Pastor To that alledged that the Pastor if he vvill haue many flockes should content him selff vvith that stipend off them all vvhich
as the worde off God remaineth if all men in the worlde woulde absolue them But let vs heare whether they be repriued by the iudgemente of these churches or whether they giue any pardon which gaue the condemnation There followeth that they allovve better off the harmeles symplicitie off some then off the exquisite learning off others ioyned vvithe pride And worthily For nether can pride agree withe manners off the minister off God and harmles symplicitie maie well agree with a competent learninge meete for that function In the ende they conclude that they reiecte not the good symplicitie of certein so they be not altogether vnskilful off God and his vvorde Firste this can make nothinge for excuse off our mynisters For when they are to learne their Catechisme and the principles off Christian Religion what knowledge is left vnto them off God and off his worde Then yt is like that by harmles symplicitie they meane some rare and singular holines wherby they goo as farre beyond the other in life as they come behinde them in learninge whiche all see to be otherwise in our ignorante ministers oftentimes the maisters off misrule to all the parishe Otherwise they knewe what Ierome saithe that in that S. Paule requireth that a bishop shoulde be vvise he barreth those vvhich vnder the name off symplicitie excuse the folie off mynisters Laste off all by that skill off God and off his worde they muste needes vnderstande suche giftes as are necessarie for a shepherd to feede his flocke whiche is habilitie to teache to exhorte to conuince the aduersarie and if he haue those althoughe he haue not the knowledge off tounges and artes in the name off God let him haue the chaire And suche I confesse our churche hathe had and hathe some but they are very rare and off thes I doubte not but the confession meaneth Nether can they be withowte manifeste iniurie thowghte to receiue those whiche they had before condemned for shall wee saie off them that with one mouthe yea with one breathe they blewe whout and kolde wheruppon I conclude that the condemnation beinge heere greater then the pardon and the wound wider then the plaister yow were verie neere driuen when yow were compelled to vse the testimonie off thes churches to couer the nakednes off the ignorante mynisters ▪ your notable slaunder off the Adm. I am contente shall as yow saie reste in the readers iudgmente That I haue gathered yowr argumente faithfully towchinge the learninge off Catechismes is shewed before There foloweth the 2. diuis the first being a blank where beside the causes by him assigned of want off able Ministers be to no pourpose considering that we shewe there can be no cause off instituting a reading ministery and be also owt off place considering that he shoulde haue opposed them to those which I alledged in that behalf that which onely was materiall that we be in cause off that fewnes is onely saied Where I alledged owt off S. Paul that yt is an expresse commaundement that a pastor should be able to teach and conuince gaynsayers and therfore to be broken vpon no occasion he answereth that S. Paul sheweth the qualities off a pastor but saieth not that we may not haue reading Pastors if there be none or not a sufficient nombre in whom all those qualities concur Then which what can be more bluntly saied For this being a generall rule he owght to haue shewed where the Lord gyueth leaue to take vnteaching mynisters contrary vnto the tenor off this commaundement which he is neuer able to doo For the scripture commaunding the pastors should be able to teach and conuince doth forthwith shutowt all other it being a generall rule that it both commaundeth the contrary off that it forbiddeth and forbiddeth the contrary off that yt commaundeth And there is no commaundement in the scripture which may not be eluded by the D. answer For thus yt may be sayed that we may haue images in churches to teach the ignorant for that although the lord forbid them yet he hath not saied that where there are none or not a sufficient numbre off able teachers we may not haue such supplies Those also which pressed with extreame hunger seeke remedy in stealing finde him their proctor For the lord hath not saied in so many wordes that one which is hungerbitten may not steale as much as will saue his life But when all commaundementes be generall in the scripture albeit they haue not alwaies the vniuersall note off All or None onles there be some exception declared this off the sufficiency off the pastor being not onely vniuersall but vniuersally propounded is better armed against all thes fond cauils For our sauiour declaring that euery one instructed as a scribe vnto the kingdome off God owght to be prouided aforehand with store off doctrine and iudgement to apply yt according to the present occasion doth gyue manifestly to vnderstand that no one may be receiued into the order off pastors which is not able to teach his flocke And the D. may as well say that in default of sober chast and quiet pastors they may chuse dronckards whoremongers swashbucklers as that in default off a teaching pastor they may take vnteaching Yea rather may he say the one then the other cōsidering that sobriety chastitie and quietnes are commen with him to all Christians but abilitie to teach and confute are his proper duties Therfore although thes be both vntollerable yet the church receiueth les harme by pastors which infected with 〈◊〉 doo teach then by them which free from thes are vtterly vnable to teach For the good life off the pastor withowt doctrine wherby they may be both tawght to put their trust in god and see the good workes they should follow is as a faire coulor withowt light to shewe yt by vtterly vnprofitable where the word truly preached shineth oftentimes clearer in the heartes then the clowde of the pastors disordered life cā stay the fruict of And albeit all commaundementes off God are such as may not for any cause be broken yet this S. Paul gyueth off the Pastor hath a speciall fense cast abowt yt wherby it might be kept in greater safety For the spirit of God foreseing this shamefull prophanation off the ministery together with the present daunger vnto the church vseth a preface to this description of the pastors office vsed rarely and but in matters of greatest stablenes saying yt is a certein doctrine As if he should say that which foloweth is an vnuariable and vnchangeable rule which can by no autoritie of men for any cause not onely be brokē but not so much as bowed or once vvrinched a side His reason that Paul was glad those preached which swarued frō that rule beside that I haue shewed it ridiculous is here owt of place cōsidering that thes readers which would haue rēt his heart in peeces being ordeined with breach off the rule off
officers bringe singular fruict vnto the commeÌ„ wealth For whilest they conquere by the word riote adultry couetousnes pride idlenes c. wherby diseases beggery translations off inheritance from the right heires needles dearthes seditions rebellions whereoff euery one is an engin able to pull downe the commen wealth they may be well called the horse and chariot of the coÌ„men wealth But yet as the pastors can not therfore be saied officers of the commeÌ„ wealth no more can the magistrate which by vertwe of his ciuill office giueth singular assistance vnto the churche be called properly the churche officer Yf as I see it like some to call magistrates a kind of officers in the churche because they being members by publike calling procure the quiet theroff they which are disposed may so speak I will not striue But why I esteme the title off head of the church not to agree vnto any simple creature etherin heauen or earth I haue shewed my reasons let the church Iudge The questioÌ„ is not whether the name of Archbishop is but whether it owght to be coÌ„tinued and if the coÌ„tinuance of it in our church draw such credit the putting downe of it in all other churches throwghowt ChristeÌ„dome must needes bring great preiudice But it is lawfull therin is the question Which althowgh he hath ofteÌ„ affirmed yet we are come to an end of the decisioÌ„ of this question by the scriptures and no word browght to confirme it Wherin ether he is litle beholding to his cawse which will minister him nothing to say or his cawse to him which leaueth it thus destitute For althowgh the reasons against yt should be insufficieÌ„t yet if he would haue this title continew in the church he should haue by shewing the lawfullnes of it owt of the word both perswaded those which haue an euill opinion of it and confirmed them which wauer For the sixt diuis let the Iudgement be the readers Before I come vnto the 7. I will for the cause alledged in the beginning off this treatise take in here the residue off the 20. off S. Math. Yowr transâ—ation the kinges off the Gentils wherby yow would prone that he putteth not a difference betwene the cyuil and ecclesiasticall power is faulty as that which withowt necessity goeth from the proper signification off the word For it signifieth naturally not the Gentils but symply any nation in which signification yt is taken oft in the ould and new testament and not onely when the Israelites are ioyned together with other nations but euen when the holy gost speaketh of the Iewes a part he calleth them by the same word here vsed Therfore it appeareth that there is nether any such meaning of the EuaÌ„gelistes and if there were yet he gaineth nothing For it is easy to answer that he therfore maketh mention off the Princes off the Gentils forasmuch as there was no King nor soueraigne ciuill principality amongest the Iewes Wheruppon our Sauiour was coÌ„pelled to take example off princely autority from the Gentils And if there were any small fragments of cyuill gouernement in the Iewes handes yt was the high priestes and other ecclesiasticall persons Which beside that yt was bastard and degenerate from the institution off God it was both more ambitiously sowght as may appeare by the ecclesiasticall stories and more tyranically administred as appeareth in scriptures then any the most disordered gouernement amongest the Heathen So that if our Sauiour would haue set forth a patron off ambition and tyranny in gouernment he needed not haue sowght it amongest the Gentils when he had it at home Yt may be saied further that he taking his example off the cyuill dominion off the Gentills would therby pull owt off the peoples heades that fond opinion amongest them and the rest off Iewes that they at the comming off the Messias should be Emperours off all the world and all the Gentills be their subiectes Especially considering this petition off the sonnes off Zebedy was grounded off that idlephansie And if neede required it were not hard to bring examples off diuers Kinges and principall magistrates amongest the Gentils which both came vnto their gouernement modestly and vsed yt with all equitie and commoditie off the subiectes as off the contrary part diuers off the Kinges amongest the Iewes whose entry hath not bene so honest nor gouernement so easy vpon which consyderations it may appeare that there was an other reason off making mention of the Gentils Math. 6. then in this place Last off all there is nothing answered to the example off our Sauiour Christ which doth manifestly ouethrow the D. interpretatioÌ„ For wheÌ„ as it is certeine that examples are browght to explane the rules which goe before and in the example our Sauiour Christ opposeth mynistring vnto others to this to be ministred vnto by others it must needes follow that the place which went before must be vnderstanded simply of domynion and not tyrannicall domynion for if the example had bene sitting vnto M. D. meaning he should haue saied as I came not tirannically to be ministred vnto or ambitiously to desyre it but modestly to rule The distinction also of the Magistrate and off the minister wherin the weight of this cawse lieth is not towched This diuision off domynion is altogether idle for it is plaine that when I say the cyuill Magistrate is seuered by bearing domynion from the ecclesiasticall person I ment lawfull and when as I deny that the ecclesiasticall person can exercise any domynion at all what place is there left to this diuision for what dominion soeuer he had proued to haue bene lawfull for an ecclesiasticall person had bene suffycient ouerthrow of that I set downe And as the diuision is superfluous so yt is vnskilfull For the two first partes the rule with oppression and the rule described 1. Sam. 8. be all one and the last member comprehendeth all that goe before And so it is not onely no good diuision but no diuision aâ— all Nether is he any happier in applying off it for where my second proposition was that the ecclesiasticall person is seuered from the cyuill by bearing domynion he saith that is true in the two fyrste significations Wherby muste follow that ether yt is lawfull for the cyuill magistrate to rule with oppression or els for the Bishop For if it be lawfull for nether of them theÌ„ one is not seuered from the other in those kindes off domynion The last section off the 62. page c. perteining altogether vnto the question off Bishopes bearing cyuill offices I will put ouer vnto the proper place Here the question is onely what belongeth to the mynister in respect off his ecclesiasticall ministery The autoritie off man in Gods cawse weigheth no further then weight is giuen by reason Therfore yow should not preiudice the exposition of this place by Bucers Iudgement especially coÌ„sidering it hath counterpois of other as learned Howbeit although
in the bishop of Salisbury and M. Beza which both affirme the same As the D. coulde frame no argument oute of Cyprians place for the office off tharchbishop withowte begging so he can not answer the reasons againste the Archbishop owte off Cyprian withowt the same For where I shewed that the whole people mentioned of Cyprian being not the people of a diocese or Prouince were notwithstanding those which Cyprians bishops gouerned ād therfore that they were not ouer a diocese or Prouince he answereth that if I hadred any stories I might vnderstande that bishops were chosen onely by the Cytisens of that place wherof they were called bishops and by no other in their Prouince or diocese Which is a grosse answer For althowghe the stories off later times wherin yt is not denied but thes offices were make suche mentiō yet what is that to our cawse whose controuersie is whether yt were so in Cyprians times as in times that folowed If he can shewe any ecclesiasticall storie off like auncientie vvith Cyprian that maketh mencion off suche election then he saith somewhat yf he can not he doothe to much abuse the time and the reader And certenly if Cypriā said had no more but the people chuse thē bishops yet withowte contrary proofe he owght by all reasonable vnderstanding be iudged to speake off all that people ouer which he had gouernement but when he addeth all the people he leauethe no controuersie And in the same place he saithe for the due making of Electiōs the nexte bishops of that Prouince vvhere the place is voide must come vnto the people ouer vvhom the bishop is set and the bishop ovvght to be chosen in the presence off the people Vppon which wordes yt maie thus be further reasoned that people in whose presence the Bishop was chosen was that over which the bishop was set but the bishop was chosen in the presence off the people off one congregacion therfore the people ouer which the Bishop was set was the people off one congregacion The firste propositiō is manifeste by Cyprians wordes the people ouer vvhom the bishop vvas to be set ovvght to be presente for election off the bishop The seconde is also cleare forsomuch as it coulde not be with any conuenience that all the people off a diocese or Prouince shoulde meete allwaies for the chusing of their bishop especially in time of persequution And therin I will refer my selfe to the iudgemēt of the reader how absurdly the D. saith afterward all the people of a prouince or diocese might meete then withowte perill or inconuenience And where he saithe there were suche metinges at Synodes in those tymes he is abused considering that the churches met not but their gouernours and not all but certeine owte off euery quarter as he might easely knowe by the practise off all times For althowghe it was not denied vnto priuate men to be presente at Councells yet yt was very rare that they were found there in anie number vnles vpō some notable controuersie and that not by appointmēt or order takē as in thelectiō of their bishop but onely at their pleasure And if yet the D. be off that boldnes that withowte any proofe owt of antiquitie he will expounde this worde all by some or as he doothe in the nexte diuis by manie and vvhole by parte and that the smallest parte and people by cytizens to the open violence off Cyprians wordes yet that all his starting holes maie be stopped let vs further examin the place of Cyprian owte of which he woulde confirme the office off the archbishop Neither haue heresies or schismes rysen of other occasion then of that the priest of God is not obeied nether one preist for the time in the church and one iudge for the time in steede off Christ thovvght vpō to vvhō if the vvhole brotherhood vvould be obediēt c. To shape an archbishop or bishop such as is with vs owte of this place the D. is cōpelled to expounde this worde church by Diocese or Prouince Which if it be truly downe then thes wordes also the vvhole brotherhoode must be expounded of all those which are in the Prouince or diocese For both the whole brotherhood are those which belong vnto that church and if there should be any moe in Cyprians church thē those conteined in thes wordes the vvhole brotherhood yt were no remedie against heresies and schismes to haue the whole brotherhood obedient vnto the preiste Yf I can therfore shew that thes wordes the vvhole brotherhood signifie onely one particuler assembly yt muste folow that nether Cyprians bishop is an Archbishop nor the churche there specified a diocese or Prouince but onely a particular congregacion In the nexte sentence therfore yt is saide in the election off Sabinus the bishopricke vvas giuen him by voice off the vvhole brotherhood Now considering that the whole brotherhood did chuse Sabinus and yt is certein that nether the whole Prouince nor dioces chose him yt is manifest that thes wordes vvhole brotherhood with Cyprian signifie not the people off a dioces or Prouince but off one particular churche Againe in Cyprians wordes heresies rise and schismes begin off this that the priest off God is not obeyed is an other argument to proue that by priest must needes be vnderstanded the minister in euery seuerall congregation For seing obedience vnto this priest hindreth the beginning and seed off both heresies and schismes and this can not be if obedience be giuen onely to one bishop in adioces or archbishop in a Prouince onles also euery minister in his particular congregation be obeied yt must follow that the priest Cyprian speaketh of is the minister off euery particular congregacion For otherwise the remedie against heresies and schismes which his wordes promise doth not follow For it is diligently to be weighed that Cyprian saith not heresies and schismes therfore continue in the church or therfore are not taken away becawse the priest is not obeied but rise haue their seedes and first beginning becavvse c. Wheras if he would haue set forth a bishop of a dioces or archbishop of a Prouince he should haue saied the cawses why heresies and schismes are continued and not why they rise Considering that the vertue off thes offices is phansied to compose and decide schismes and heresies and that althowgh the people be by them cured off their heresies and schismes when they are fallen into them yet they can not by their teachinges be kept from entrance into them being so far off and seldome or neuer hearing their voice Moreouer as it is saied here there is one priest in the church so in an other place there ovvght to be but one pastor in one place and againe euery pastor hath a portion off the floock committed vnto him vvheroff he must gyue account vnto the Lord. Yf therfore he will not suffer this one priest in the church to be applied to moe then
whom there is any light off iudgement would say it is matter off storie vvhether the appointing off one in euery church ouer the rest is remedie againste heresie or no I◠perteineth to the storie that one was placed ouer the rest at such tyme and place as is set downe by Ierome likewise that the cawse that moued them to bring in this coustome was for preseruacion off peace and none off thes is denied but whether this cawse were well assigned and whether this supposed to preserue peace banished godly peace is the question If this be a matter off storie storie hath a larger kingdome then euer I heard off Yet this he doth as absurdly charge me with after in Iustines testimonie where likewise I denie no part off his storie Yf this be to discredite men to say their autoritie ovvght not to vveigh further then yt hath vveight ether off scripture or some reason grovvnded theroff then I haue discredited all writers from the Apostels time For by thes weightes I haue esteemed the best But I leaue to be cōsidered what a popish tyrānie he goeth abowt to bring into the church which lifteth the credit of any be he neuer so godly ād learned aboue that which I haue here alledged Where he saith I confound Monarchie with Tyrannie in that I ask whether the church be not in as great daunger when all is doon at the pleasure off one as when one pulleth one peece and an other an other yt is but a vaine shifting hole For althowgh thes wordes at the Pleasure and lust off one be for the moste part spoken by way off dispraise and I willingly confesse I vsed them becawse this Ecclesiasticall monarchie seldome or neuer deserueth better yet my wordes following declare that my comparison is betwene the Ecclesiasticall gouernement off one and off many not betwene one gouerning tyrannically and many moderatly For supposing that both the Archbishop and those which gouerne in commen be godly and catholike I affirme that he being one is sooner drawen into error then many sooner ouercaried with his affection then a godly companie In answer wherof and reasons wherwith this is confirmed the D. falleth flatly into that wherewith he chargeth me For in steed that he should haue marched many godly and learned ministers with one he matcheth him with the multitude and commē sort and in steed off comparing one ruling by law with many gouerning by the same he compareth him with a lawles companie and in steed off comparing a litle vvater with much of the same kinde he compareth a litle conduite water closed vp in lead with much fennish and muddy Which what leaden answers they be let the reader iudge For in this path of reasoning which he walketh in a man may proue it better to haue but one eye then two becawse some see better with one then other some with both His answer to that off preferring contention before vvicked peace that we haue the true doctrine and right administration of Sacramentes c. and therfore no contention is to be moued is as muche to the question as if he had answered off the wether For the question is not of the estate off our church but off all generally nor whether we haue the truth of doctrine c. but by what way yt ys best kept His answer to the similitude of fire stricken by flintes is more fond For I shewing by yt that contētion is better then wicked peace he answereth the fire stricken may be in suche a time that it may consume the whole countrey and that it is madnes to light a candell at noone daies As if the fire off the truth which I spake off and so called off our Sauiour can consume any thing but straw stuble c. or the Apostle were not glad that the truth came forth allthowgh by contention or it were noone day when the heauens thorowgh ignorāce ād errors are like an haircloth which is the time I spake of And where hauing shewed that tharchbishop is not fittest to kepe the church in possession off the truth I admit by way off disputation that he vvere the fittest adding that forsomuch as he hath as great force to kepe men in error vvhen they are fallen into it this in commoditie ovvght to driue vs to some other gouernement he answereth a monarchie being the worst kind of gouernement when it ruleth by affection ceasseth not to be lawfull when it ruleth by lawes Where first I refer the reader to that before that it is one thing off the forme off church gouernement an other of the commēt wealth which is answer to all thes slanderous speaches here repeted Secondly the church receiueth greater dammage by an Archbishop keping yt in error then the commen wealth by any outrage off tyrannie For there can be no tyrannie in the gouernement off the cōmen wealth so extreme wherin there is not somthing tending to preseruacion off it and consequently off the church But in the gouernement off an Archbishop fallen from the truth and in the swinge off his vncontrolled autoritie keping the truth vnder there is nothing but destruction and ruine withowt step or footing off the fauour off God towardes the vpholding off the church Seing therfore tyrannie in the commen wealth is not so great an ennemy vnto the commen wealth as a church tyrant vnto the truth there is better cawse to haue a Monarchie in the commen wealth then in the church as that which can not stray so far as the other from the end wherunto it was ordeined Moreouer the cawse why the Monarchie in commen wealth can not be condemned is for that it is one off those gouernementes which God hath established and allowed by his word But the Archbishoprick to let pas that yt is contrarie to the word off God yt is sufficient in this consideration that yt hath no allowance off the same For therupon foloweth that althowgh the abuse off those thinges which God hath approued can not destroie the lawfull vse off them yet this which hath no further alowance then of the mouth off mē may vpon experience off euill husbandrie in the church matters be worthely reiected So yt may be seen that althowghe the Ans would make one case off a Magistrate and archbishop yet there is as far distance betwene them as betwene heauen and earth Yt resteth to shewe that the archbishopricke hath bene so farre from nourishing the church peace that yt hath bene the knife wherwith all the stringes and knottes theroff haue bene cutte in peaces Againste vvhich the Ans alledgeth firste the testymonies off Cyprian and Ierome Wherin besyde that I haue shewed that they helpe him not yt is before declared that nether Cyprians bishop did any thing at all nor Ieromes the ordination excepted but by common consent off all the elders Not onely because they were at making off the church lawes vnder which wrinckel the D. woulde hide the excesse off the archbishops
Athanasius when he was but deacon or elder at the most writeth To Athanasius Lord and beloued sonÌ„e So that if Dominus must needes be a Lord then my Lord bishop muste by the same reason that he would be called Lord call the elders or Deacons Lordes likewise So there shall be Lord Bishop Lord Elder Lord Deacon vvhich as it is ridiculous so it tuneth not with the bishops note off honour which the D. fighteth for And this is also answer to my Lord Paulinus beside that Lord is not referred vnto the pronoune yovvres as if the councell had said Athanasius was the elders Lord. And if it were yet if he vvill therupon conclude any superioritie of him aboue thelders off his church he must by the same reason say that one simple bishop had superioritie ouer an other seing Eusebius bishop calleth Paulinus his fellow bishop his Lord which is absurd and condemned off him self Now I haue shewed him how bishopes were called most honorable Lordes he hath gotten two or three places where are found titles to the same effect which is idle seing that was confessed To my answer that Lorde vvith them vvas no other title then might be gyuen to a man off meane degree he saith most honorable Lord was onely gyuen to those in great autoritie which is onely said and may easely be confuted in that Alexander bishop off Alexandria the Metropolitane citie vvriting to all the church ministers not bishops onely called them most honorable fellovv ministers That he saith it was not grudged at then that bishops were called by the same titles that Princes ys very plaine language and needeth no commentarie to shew the meaning sauing that he durst not vtter all For if he would haue applied his place he shoulde haue saide yt was not grudged at then that bishops vvere called by more loftie titles then th Emperours seing the title he presseth for the bishops is most precious Lordes and the Emperour as he saith vvas onely called Lord. That the house off salutations was within the boundes off the churche appeareth not in Theodoret. His reason because the houses perteining to the bishoprick were nere the churche is weake For althowgh all howses perteining to the bishoprik were neere yet there might be some neere not perteining therto Hâ—â—beit if it were belonging to the church in that vvord there is no such note off excellency wherby yt deserueth to be the porters lodge of our bishops palaces To that off the bishops bestovving the church goods vpon loitering seruing men vvhich shoulde be bestovved vpon the vniuersities and poore bothe ministers and other he saith and onely saith that their number off seruing men tendeth to the defense off the realme honour off the prince and their owne good education off the princes honour yt is answered strenght to the realme they can not be seing the men should be althowghe they were not nourished by the bishop especially seing the bishops howse is an vnfit schole to traine vp to vvarfare And if the former necessities were helped aÌ„d yt thowght meet that the church goods should serue the realm that vvay all see that yt would rise to more profit if some were nourished off them in profession off a Souldiour then that in waiting vpon the white Rochet they should rather become vvhite liuered then fashioned for that seruice Beside that the bishops countenaÌ„ce being so profitable as yt is made and placed a greate parte in this suite off men it is manifest that his pompe houlding diuers at home which otherwise might be in the field weakeneth rather then strenghneth the realme For the education they get vnder them the corrupte religion of some the wante of Catechising others ignorant in the principles of religion the leudnes of diuers the idlenes off the most parte which is in the eies of all giue to plentifull a confutation off that parte wherin let the reader obserue how vnmeet they be to gouern dioceses and Prouinces which haue their proper houses so euil ordered especially seing the Apostel vvill not truste him vvith one parishe vvhich ruleth not his owne howse vvel And the trwth ys that the church mynistery is of that trauaill and care that yt vvill not suffer the bishops gyftes be they neuer so greate to be spente in the houshoulding and masterlike charge off suche a nomber vvhich vvas no doubt one cause why bothe the scripture and the olde Canons shut owt the bishops from this pompe Where he saith the vniuersities ministers and poore may otherwise be prouided for when that ys browght to pas and in suche sorte as a sufficient nomber â—f learned men may be nourced vp to fournish bothe the churche off ther ministers and coÌ„men wealth off her magistrates the ouerplus may as M. Hoopers counsail is goo to maintenance off Souldiours or other necessary vses aduised off by the common vvealthe That the canons browght against the bishops pomp reache to vniuersitie colledges forasmuch as there were none such then as we haue now ys vntrwe considering that with other vniuersities euery bishops howse vvas as hathe bene shewed a colledge off Students in diuinitie and yt ys otherwise vnsufficient For I reason not againste their pompe because yt was not vsed in times paste but because yt was forbidden And if he can shew the reuenews off Colledges forbidden by the Godly councels then yt had heue somewhat he saith Ad also that if the pompe and ryot off Colledges werelike the bishops yt were likewise worthie to be spoken against Ierome cited against the pompe of bishops receiueth answer that he spake agaynste the abuse and not thuse Ieromes wordes be these let the readeriudge off his meanig yt is a foule shame that before the gates off pore and crucified Christe VVho also eate of other mens meate the Consuls Sergeantes and Gard shoulde vvaite and that the ruler off the Prouince shoulde dine better at thy hovvse then in the palace But if thovv pretend to do these thinges to th ende to beg for the poore the Secular iudge vvill giue more to a churche man vvhich kepethe measure and is frugall then to one vvhich is riche and reuerence more thy holines then thy riches Or if the ruler be suche that he vvill not hearken to the churchmen ctauing for the poores reliefe but vvhen he is amongest the cupps I vvill gladly vvant suche a benefit and beg off Christ in stede off the iudge vvho is better and soner able to helpe then the iudge I omit that he inueighethe against a church maÌ„ which poore before becometh riche by the church aÌ„d liuing very homely before after vsethe delicate fare with other thinges to that ende Whether this were one cause off the bishops stately pompe that certeine noble and riche men receâ—â—ed to the mynistery and liuing somvvhat like their former estates others assaied to be like vnto them whether an other cause were for that it being amongest the heathen priests
The second replie of Thomas Cartwright agannst Maister Doctor Whitgiftees second answer touching the Churche Discipline Isay 62. vers 1. For Syons sake I will not hould my tonge and for Ierusalems sake I will not reste vntill the righteousnes therof break forth as the light and the saluation therof be as a burning lampe Ibid. vers 6. 7. Ye that are the Lordes remembrancers kepe not silence and gyue him no rest vntill he repaire and set vp Ierusalem the praise off vvorld Imprinted M. D. LXXV To the Churche off England and all that Loue the trueth in yt Thomas Cartwright Wisheth mercy and peace from God our Father and from our Lorde Iesus Christe THe Church off God so ofte vs scripture not compared onely but figured in the Citie Ierusalem serueth for instruction in this cause For as in yt the wal first broken downe was last made vp againe and that more then 14. yeares after the temple builded so is yt commenly in the spirituall wal off the churche whiche is the discipline the lorde appointed aswel for strenght of yt as for houlding out of all aduersarie power whether yt be corruption off doctrine or manners The first is to be seen in the Act. of thapostles where after the churches gathered by preaching there was an eldership seuerally placed in them to whom the execution of the church discipline doth especially appertain The other may as easily appear to him that considereth the estate off the churche after the Apostles by monuments off those times in which allwaies as this fort off gouernement left by them was first suffred to decaie so the purenes of doctrine decreased vntill the churche yt selfe except a few stones here and there scattered was browght to heapes off dust Yf yâ— be asked why the discipline hauing right to entre with the doctrine findeth not alwaies that fauour amongest men The cause â—s apparant that when Satan can not gain this first point to houlde the doctrine owt off a city or Kingdome he sweareth after the second that yt may be there with smallest fruict and shortest continuance Wherin let I beseche yow be considered his doings against the building off the wal off Ierusalem For if he bestirred himself so in hindering that materiall wal it wil be les meruaile yf for hinderance off this spirituall he trudge to and fro open his whole pack off subtilties and as yt is in prouerb bestovv both â—vet and dry And first touching the persons he vseth in his fight against both they are not much vnlike For in steed off a bastard kinde off Israelites Apostataes from God and his tru seruice which were there the foreine enemies we haue now the Papistes who as shal appear he set in the forward of this battail against the discipline now propounded And as now we haue within the church whiche couered with the name off the gospel and off the teachers theroff giue a more daungerous assault then the Papistes So were there then euen off the Iewes them selues vnder gouerners and Prophetes which secretly and openly opposed them selues As for the practises they are so like in bothe that all which will open their eies maie easely espie the same workeman For as the enemies then placed their cheef strenght in accusations against the church that yf it vvere suffered to laie the foundacioÌ„s of the vval it vvould moue seditioÌ„ and rebel against the Kinge euen so our aduersary to arme the Prince against this cause soundeth nothing more then rebellion sedition and suche like Yf this were not able to discrie or at least to giue warning off this vnfaithfull dealing yet this may That these are the verie weapons off the papistes which not able amongest vs with so great succes to be vsed by them selues as those which are knowne enemies haue bene ministred to the D. that being throwne owte off his hand in whose mouthe is the gospell they might be thowght to haue bene made for defence which were forged for ouerthrow of yt For where Brentius teacheth that the ministers owght not to beare dominion ouer the churches like princes Hosius accuseth him that by the same meane he vvent about to displace Caesar And vpon like occasion that vve vvould ouerthrovv al kingdomes and superiority that men might doe vvat they liste That yf the Almans had once shaken off the Pope they vvould shake off Caesar sone after Yf these be compared with diuers off the D. accusations and namely with that page 455. lin 1. yt will be meruail that onles he were in this point taught by the same spirit Hosius was he could iump so euen not onely with the like accusation but almost with the same wordes But this shall better appeare in discours off this boke where ys shewed not onely that he hathe the like but the verie self same cause with the grossest Papistes I say the grossest for that in some pointes as off the churches election and pastorall residence there are found off them more fauorable to the trwth then he which ioining with Catholike writers both ould and of our time haue written against the estate off the Popish churche in that behalf And that no mans simplicity be abused by an owtward profession off the gospell as thowgh yt were vnlike that they which professed yt should be enimies to the trwe discipline or vncredible that the same whiche cry out off the Tyranny off Antechrist shoulde refuse the moderat and wholsom gouernement of Christ yt may please them to vnderstand that this cause hathe before this bydden the assault not off the Papistes alone but euen off them which make shew off so deadly war with papistry that the greatest force of their resistance hathe bene a feare ether pretended or vainly phansied least the gyuing place to the discipline shoulde draw after yt the popishe Tyranny Capito a man off singuler learning and godlines affirmeth that it was obiected vnto them whiche vvente about to restore the discipline that they vvould be Tyrans ouer the churche vvhich vvas free and cal back againe a nvve popedome M. Bucer SataÌ„ goeth about that by restoring of the discipline the faithfull Ministers should be thovvght to seek ambitously the same Tyranny vvhich Antechrist did M. Beza vvhen the Eldership and excoÌ„municatioÌ„ vvere to be instituted there vvaÌ„ted not vvhich cried ovvt that the popish tyranny vvas by that meanes called back again also that the magistrats office vvas therby in parte inuaded Now if these slaunders be compared with the Answerers al may vnderstand that althowgh the instrments vsed against the discipline vary in tyme and countrie yet the autor misleading some by simplicitie and thrusting other headlong throwgh couetousnes or ambition ys the same in our countrey which was then in Germany Fraunce or Sanoy For that the discipline now propounded is the same whiche suffered this coÌ„tradiction off certein professors off the Gospell shall manifestly appear in this discours and may be
partly vnderstode both by Capâ—â—â—â— letters written to comfort a ministre off Geneua then Wrestling for yt as by Bezas wordes which particularly note one or two partes therof Nether can disagreemeÌ„t of the fauourers thereoff in interpretation of some place signification of some word alteration off some circumstance yf any be hinder this no more then diuers pictures off one face hauing al the same great and principal drawghts can hinder vs from acknowledging the same visage in them al albeit one be more coningly drawn then other haue more liuely and orient couloures then other haue one smal line more or les then other Onles peraduenture men wil be so vnaduised to denie the doctrine off the Gospell to be the same professed at Geneua at Zurick at Witemberg because the professors had in some smaller points their seueral Iudgements Another principall kinde off artillery wherwith the D. leueleth at this wal off church discipline is â—haccusation off Anabaptistry This also as may appeare is taken from the Papistes For when the persequuting off the churche in Fraunce where together with the doctrine this discipline was established was misliked off the Almanes the French to appease them said there vvere none so cruelly handled but Anabaptists and troublesome felovves vvhich vvould ouerthrovv not religion onely but the vvhole order off the commeÌ„ vvealth And althowgh the D. hath in this behalf trauailed mightily and gathered as yt were a heape off stones to throw at vs yet for feare off being conuincted off so manifest vntrwthes he dare not throw one but priuilie and as yt were vnder hand saying he will not accuse any he will not condemne any that is he will forsothe not flea vs him self but hould our legs while other flea vs But he shal neuer so escape the iudgemement off god For yf he were giltie which kept their garments that cast the stones how much more shall he that put stones in their handes althowgh yf we were suche we owght so to be noted that others might take heed off suche detestable heretikes All which false surmises with diuers others of Donatism Papism puratanism We might with one sentence off the holy man Iob haue refuted For so are they not onely vntrw but for the moste parte without al colour of trwth that taking our aduersaries boke off accusations vpon our shoulders and applying them vnto our heades that al might read and see them wee might as off a crovvne or robe haue receiued commendation by them Howbeit because there was some daunger least the D. lofty titles and glittering estate might ether seduce som simple ones or vtterly carie away those whose mindes were forestalled with some preiudice against the cause we maintein I thowght good once at large aÌ„d peece by peece to lay forth the vnworthines of his accusations Now I see there is no end of his vnhonest charges I meane not by further answer in poursuit off his oulde or auoiding his nwe ether weary my selfe or the reader For seing the vntrwth off them is in the eies and eares off all why shoulde I trauaile to stop his Throate which as an open sepulchre off vntrw sumises wil as seemeth neuer with any reasonable answer be filled vp And that yow may haue a taste off his equitie note I beseche yow his answers vnto our defence This is wel said if vnfained These glorious wordes are but mistes to blind the eies off the simple The Anabaptistes would saie the like Verely if they say so they shall deteste them selues with all their wicked phantasies and gyue as sounde a Confession of the trwth as the Doctor can make any But let vs imagin him selfe accused off all these pointes which he surmiseth of vs I would gladly know what he would answer Let him conceiue his purgation as effectually and in as good wordes as he can make al the protestations he can offer him self to what examination he can how easie ys yt for his aduersarie with the same equitie he vseth towardes vs to dashe al. This is wel said but it is fained there was neuer heretike which to hide bis poison pretended not some colour off truth c. And by the grace off God we are as far yea further also as shall appeare from al pointes off Anabaptisme then he But saith he let the like effectes proceding of like causes and in like maner iudge the likelihoode betweene the Anabaptistes and them Truly yf he proue the causes like the controuersie is at an â—â—de And if the searche off the trwth had bene his marke here he would haue begon where the triall is certaine and not off the effectes Which allthowgh they be falsly surmised yet some are suche as maie ensue albeit after another sorte aswell the preaching off the trwth as the publishing off falshood And surely if the Anabaptistes when they rose in Germany had met with suche confuters yt is very like that they now put to flight would haue occupied the greatest part off it But the godlie mynisters assured of a good cawse prouoked to most solemn disputations where all seyng their vanities might learne to deteste them and them selues made to vnderstand their folies might be stricken with shame which might bringe repentance This they did by example off the Godlie learned in times past and off Augustine namely Who prouoketh the Donatistes and Manichies to Disputation in the hearing off all his church This cause therfore if yt should not preuaile by force off trwthe yt must gaine throwghe the indirecte meanes and cowardly fight off the Answerer so far from procuring this trial that he accuseth me as desirous of popular praise because refusing his priuat confeâ—rence as he some where hath affirmed I onely put him in minde of a disputacion Wherto also perteineth that he counteth yt Anabaptistical that this ys propounded in places where the gospell hath bene alredy planted As if there were a fitter place to propounde the Discipline then vvhere the doctrine hathe allredie beene receiued where shoulde the vvall be fitlier made then where the citie is before builded Where the diche caste but where the Orcheyarde is alreadie planted Yf yt had bene preached where was ignorance or small knowledge of the gospell the would haue taken great aduantage for that they might so haue abused the blindnes of their heares to cause them beleue that which those that haue their eyes open could not be brought vnto Now they preache in places vvhere the gospell was planted he will make that also serue for a stepp for his accusation to clime vp by So that howsoeuer we behaue our selues what commoditie off circumstance soeuer we haue the D. hathe suche an engine that he can not onely cause yt not to serue for vs but also make against vs For sure I am no place could haue bene les suspected then London and Cambridge two off the highest hills in all the realme from whence bothe the sounde off yt might
be the easilest caried into all other places and which abounding with knowledge off the gospell were fittest to iudge off the goodnes off the cause Wherin I doubte not but the good hande off Gods direction and the example off the Apostells haue bene considered who that they might haue fuller sheues off the seed of their doctrine preased to the chief and moother cities making their accompte that the mother being won the daughters round abowte vvould be easilier intreated And althowghe yt come to often to pas that there is some Amazias or high preist nere the courte which vseth both his eies to watche that none come thether to disquiet his vnlawfull possession yet forsomuche as it is as impossible to pull the winges off the winde that yt should not blow or shut the windowes off the heauens that they should not raine as to stop that trwth which God in his holy worde hath breathed and doeth raine by the clowdes off his mynistery I dowbt not but the voice off yt is come to the highest and shall haue that fruict in time which God hath disposed off Yf yt should not yet euery faithfull mynister is detter vnto his flocke off the whole trwth learned owt off the worde off God aswell for reioicing their heartes in encrease of knowledg as that therby they might bewail their synnes for want off yt and forthwith be stirred to continuall praier that God would encline the Princes heart and off others in autoritie to gyue yt that defence which apperteineth Nether doe we therefore call vpon the examination off our doctrine as thowgh we feared least our behauiour should be examined or as if yt resembled the Anabaptistes maner of liuing but that I might shew how disorderly the D. goeth to worck For althowgh before the Lord we and I for my part especially as myserable synners hang down our heades and couer our faces yet our behauiour throwgh his grace towching that surmised of vs ys such as we nothing fear but with all indifferent iudgement yt conteineth plentifull remedy against the sting off all suche slaunderous tonges Wise Physicions when the desease is vnknown seeke yt by owtward tokens off pulse vrine c. Yf we had nourished any night or corner doctrine which we whispering in the eares of certeine woulde not haue had come owt of the doores of our priuat houses yt should haue bene accounted to him for wisdom by signes and coniectures to haue inquired into our couert opinions But now seing we haue Fanckly and openly published our iudgementes and as yt were on the Faire and Market daies proclaimed them offering them in scholes in churches by preaching by writing not onely to the tast off the commen people but to the examination of the best learned after al this to inquire by signes and tokens is to seek his aduersary whiche standeth hard by to call for him which is present And yt is as if one to know what iudgement an other is of had rather take his mark by the colour of his coat or tag of his point then by his speache or hand writing And if it were the good will off God I would for this matter he had a window to look into our consciences To make and ende of answer to these surmises whatsoeuer is proper ether to the heresie off Papistes Anabaptistes Donatists or puritanes that wee vtterly condemne vnto the bottomles pit off hell But if amongest the filth of their herises there may be found any good thing as yt were a grain off good corn in a great deal of darnell that wee willingly receiue not as theiree but as the Iues did the holy Arke from the Philistines wherof they were vniust owners For herein yt is trw that is said the sheep must not lay dovvn her fel becavvse she seeth the vvolf somtim clothed vvith yt yea yt may come to pas that the Synaguog off Satan may haue some one thing aâ— somtime with more conuenience then the trw and Catholike churche off Christ Such was the ceremonie off powring water once onely vpon the childe in baptisme vsed with vs and in the moste reformed churches which in some age was vsed onely by those off the Eunomian heresy As for the Answerer let him remember that the iust Iudge liueth before whome if he doe not speedelie repent one day notwithstanding his gloses I accuse none I apply yt to none he muste houlde vp his hand with Satan the Prince off the accusers off the children off God wherunto I doubt not but his own conscience is his Apparitor and hath giuen him summonce And thus much for answer vnto the D. generall partly accusations and partly surmises against the fauourers off the church discipline now propounded There folow particular charges against the autors off the admonition and against me Those against them haue bene answered and the answers so far forth as they touche the cause are in this boke mainteined sauing certein new charges Wherein I dowbt not but they will take yt in good part that I vse silence seing that some of the smaller thinges are such as lie not in my knowledg and some so manifestly vntrw that they need not fear any credit to be gyuen vnto them the D. him selfe as I thinck not belieuing them Of his accusations against me because some haue eie aswel to the speakers as to the thinges spoken I trust yt shall not be greuous yf I answer somthing Especially when in this preface beside other thinges I purpose God willing to Synk nigh half his later book For if one would make suruey off reproches vntrw surmises and false accusations wherwith he hath frawght yt beside a nwe lode which he hath charged the second edition off his first boke with he should I suppose finde nigh one half spent in those wares Wherin he dealeth with me as certein beastes which pursued cast forth behinde them an vntollerable sauour therby to affray their hunters from further chasing them In deed they are very vnpleasant but the good sauour off the trwth and off honest behauiour in thinges he accuseth me off hath by the grace off God so comforted all the senses off my minde that he hath not escaped by this pollicie Some off his accusations touche the cause but the most part touche yt not Off this later kynd one sort are off my maner of liuing â–ª albeit he count yt a childishe kinde off confuting that one should leaue the cause and take him self to the person Here my ministerie is diuerslie accused as that I did not seke for the ordre off priesthood as it is called for that is that he meaneth I should haue done by othe or els departed the Colledge The answer hereto is longer then this treatise may embrace which I am readie to exhibit before him to whom it belongeth because I am prouoked I humbly desire him to receiue the cause But in a word yt ys a meer cauill For the meaning off
vse vnlawfull And especially in the tenth chapter he confuteth the verie selfe same reason which the A. towieth so roundlie with in this place which was that for so muche as the eatinge at the Idolles feast was but an owtward thing and went no farther then to the bellie therfore it was indifferent to be vsed or left at a mans discretion So the place then the which their is none stronger in the whole bodie off the Scripture to bind and kepe in the lauishe vse off Christian libertie that the A callendgeth for the enlarging of it betonde the boundes that God hathe set in his word And wheras he saith that S. Paule declareth their contentions which seperate them selues from the church for externall thinges S. Paule maketh no mention there either off contention or diuision from the church neither in deed they which abused then their libertie contended withe the weaker but contemned them Also off deuiding them selues from the church in that place is not a worde who soeuer will reade those places with a litle diligence shall easely perceiue that this is the matter which the Apostle giueth owt in that place As touching externall thinges for which the church of Christ may not contend they are suche as there being no commaundement of God directlie to vse them or not to vse them are left in the discretion of the faithful to be ordered the most to Godes glorie and edifiyng one off an other therfore as I thinke termed off learned writers externall for that they come not vnto the conscience nor bind not yt For otherwise that difference off externall and internall thinges is not sufficient to giue to vnderstand which are thinges indifferent or vnindifferent For neither are all externall thinges left to our discretion as I haue shewed and there are some internall thinges as off certeine inward thowghtes and opinions which are not imputed vnto vs for synne whether side soeuer we thinke or iudge of them As if I thinke in my selfe that there was neuer suche a Hector or Achilles or troye as is described off Homere and virgill I sinne not and if I thincke there was neither is that imputed vnto me for synne But these thinges which be in controuersie seing we offer to proue them commaunded and necessarie by the word off God how commeth it to passe that yow lashe owt so manie places owt off Bullinger and Zuinglius against those which trouble the church for indifferent thinges as thowghe yow had alreadie gotteÌ„ that which yow confesse by and by to be in triall that these things which we demaund are not necessarie What order of iudgement is this first to giue iudgement or euer the cause be heard iff yow will needes be bothe partie and Iudge at least yow should haue saued these vntill yow haue as yow promised shewed the vntreweth off our cause And therfore hereafter as often as yow doo importunatelie and vnstill fully heape so many places togither yow shall haue for answere â— plaine blancke To the 16. sect pa. 14. WHether yow haue either scripture or godlie learned author for your warrant in your assertions partely hath bene alreadie shewed and more shall appeare But yow must learne that the part of a faithfull teacher in the church of god is neither to propound any thing to the church neither to reiecte that which is propounded by other off credit off any godlie learned zelous man And althowghe this be to much yet that which he writethe in the 200. pag. is to farr owt of al square Wher he affirmeth that the argument off authoritie whether owt off the Scriptures or owt off the interpretors off the Scripturrs is the best reason that can be browght in diuinitie To bothe I will answere here in the beginninge that the reader may haue wherewithe he maye beware and know how to estenie bothe his and our proufes And first of all seing the Apostle teacheth Timothie that the Scripture inspired by the holie goste is the onelie rule for the minister which he calleth the man off god either to establishe or ouerthrowe what soeuer maye fall in question in the churche And S. Peter saith that who soeuer speaketh in the churche must speake as the wordes of god And seing all the godlie zelous learned men in the world are not able to authorise or displace any doctrine in the churche withowt the word of god I leaue it to be considered how dauÌ„gerouslye he mainteineth his answere to be good for that it hathe ground either of the word of god or the iudgement of some godlie iearned man and let it be waied whether this be to set vp an other Doctor in the church then Moses or our sauiour Christ Touchinge that the authoritie off the Scripture in diuine matters owght to preuaile I willinglie graunte but that the argument off the authoritie of men whiche haue interpreted the Scriptures is the beste reason in controuersies off diuinitie but off the Papistes whose strongest towers are in the testimonies off the Doctors was neuer hard off And thowghe there be nothing more Papistical then this assertion yet the doctor holding the name and profession of the gospell maye to the vtter subuersion off it cause this to be printed and flie abroade And that the authoritie off learned men should be the best proufe in diuine matters hathe more absurdities in yt then yt hathe wordes For first their authoritie is here set in the same ranke withe the authoritie off the Scripture in that as the authoritie off the Scripturr so it also is set in the superlatiue degree off the best proufe Then their authoritie being preferred vnto all reasons is preferred vnto the reasons drawen owt off the Scripture which in euerie diuinitie cause almoste besides the authoritie are diuerse drawen off the causes and off the effectes c. Thirdlie yt ys absurd to perferr the authoritie of any man which ys onelie his bare affirmation vnto his one reason and discours And seing the ende off proufes in controuersies off diuinitye is that faythe maye be engendred in mindes whiche onelye can be grounded on the worde off God what a miserable yea what â— cursed faith shall that be that is hanged off the authoritâ—â— off men which be they neuer so learned yet are they because they be men Lyers suche as deceyue and be deceyued And wheras he saithe that an Argument off authoritie hathe an other weight in our profession then yt hathe in humane sciences I confesse it hathe so iff the authoritie off the Scripture bee consydered But as for the authoritie off men for the which cause he alledgeth this yâ— is farr otherwise For yff the authoritie off man in humane sciences and in mens matters be off small force off how how muche lesse force owght yt to be in Godes matters yt is clene contrarie therfore to that the D. sayth For althoughe that Kinde off argument off the authoritie off men is Good neither in humane nor diuine science yet
it hath some smale force in humane sciences for as muche as naturallie and in that he is a man he maye come to some rypenes off Iudgement in those sciences Which in diuine maters hathe no force at all as off him which naturally and as he is a man can no more Iudge off them then a blind man off colours Yea so farre is it from drawing credite if it be barelie spoken withowt reason and testimonie off Scripture that it carieth also a suspition off vntrewth whatsoeuer proceded from him which the Apostle did well note when to signifie a thing corruptlie spoken and against the truthe he saith that it is spoken according vnto man he saith not as a wicked or lying man but symplie as a man And althowghe this corruption be reformed in manye yet forsomuch as in whom the knowledge of the truthe is most advāced there remaineth bothe ignorance and disordered affections wheroff either turneth him from speaking off the truth no mans authoritie withe the church especiallie and those that are called and perswaded off the authoritie off the word off God can bring any assurance vnto the conscience So that iff all that the D. affirmeth were trew as it is vntrue and iff all those authorities which are alledged were faithfullie and according to the meaninge off the writers cited as they are almost all writhen and falsified yet being for the most part vpholden by the bare authoritie and credite off men they can giue no reste to any Christian conscience which shall leane vppon them And iff he saye that those men haue not spoken withowt reason and warrant off the word of god then besides that he is greatly to blame that bringeth not the reasons which moued them to thinke so and wherupon as vppon certen pillers that sentence might stand it falleth owt still against him that the argument off authoritie hathe no force as that which hathe no credit off it selffe but as altogither lame is faine to borowe feete off an other And then the D. should haue considered that for so muche as the reason off authoritie standeth for the cause and sake off an other that is to saye for the argument off causes and other places it must needes be worse then the arguments wherupon it hangeth for that for whose cause another thinge is is better thē the thing which dependeth vpon it And therby further followeth that forsomuch as reason withowt authoritie is good and authoritie withowt reason nothing worthe that those argumentes whiche are grounded vpon reasons are better then those which are grounded vppon authoritie And wheras peraduenture he will seke some colour of defence off his absurd speache in the wordes which he addeth of suche learned men as do rightly interprete the scripture that addition as it taketh not awaye from the absurditie so it addeth to the folie and impropretie of speche For besides that he taketh that for graunted which is the question that is to saye whether it be rightlie interpreted or noo he should haue vnderstanded that the rightnes of the interpretation depēdeth not vpon the authoritie of the man or in that suche a godlie or learned man did so interprete it but in that the place is expounded agreablie vnto the suite of the texte And that the D. which vnder the name off auncient authoritie would oppresse the truthe may vnderstand that euen in this magnifiyng of authoritie he is not so good a scholer o◠disciple off his pretended masters of diuerse sentences off the fathers them selues wherby some haue likened them vnto brute beastes withowt reason which suffer themselues to be led by the iudgement and authoritie off others some haue preferred the iudgement of one simple rude mā alledging reason vnto companies off learned men I will content my selffe at this time with two or thre sentences Ireneus saith Vvhatsoeuer is to be shevved in the scripture can not be shevved but of the scriptures thē selues 3. l. 12. c. Iero. saith No man be he neuer so holie or eloquent hathe any authoritie after the Apostles Augustin saith that he vvill beleue none hovv godly and lerned so euer he be vnles he confirme his sentence by the scriptures or by some reason not cōtrary to them And in an other place heare this the Lord saith heare not this Donatus saithe Rogatus saithe Vicentius saith Hilarius saith Ambrose saith Augustin saithe but harken to this the Lord saithe And againe hauinge to doo withe an Arrian affirmeth that neither he ovvght to bringe forthe the councell off Neece nor the other the councell of Arimin therby to btinge preiudice eche to other neither ovvght the Arrian to be houlden by the authoritie off the one nor him selffe by the authoritie of the other but by the scriptures vvhiche are vvitnesses proper to neither but common ro bothe matter vvith matter cause vvith cause reason vvith reason ovvght to be debated And in another place against Petiliane the donatian hereticke he saith Let not these vvordes be heatd betvvene vs I Saye yovv Saye let vs heare this Thus saithe the lord and by and by speaking off the scriptures he saithe there let vs seeke the churche there let vs trie the cause Here yt is manifest that the argument of authoritie off man affirmatiuely is nothing worthe which the answerer notwithstanding maketh so great accounts off likewise that reason whiche is not directly against the trewth is preferred to authoritie which the A. denieth and if Augustin thowght that in a matter off controuersie the authoritie off so manye godlie and learned fathers as were assembled at that Councell off Nece interpeting the scriptures rightlie owght not to be alledged not onelie to condemne and conuince but not so muche as to preiudice an heresie long agoo condemned iff he would haue the trewth tried by the scripture onely let all men iudge how euill a folower off Augustin the D. is which in the authoritie of one or two men layeth so great weight that he thinketh that kinde off proufe to be the best proufe off his and ouerthrowe off his aduersaries cause And iff at any time it happened vnto him as it did against the Donatistes ▪ and others to alledge the authorite off the auncient fathers which had bene before him yet that was not done before be had layed a sure foundation off his cause in the scriptures and that also being prouoked by the aduersaries off the treuth who bare themselues highe off some Councell or off some man off name that had fauoured their parte And therfore iff the A. would salue this with the example off Augustin in other places yet for that he neuer in any cause laieth any foundation either of any scripture or colour of scripture ād being prouoked flieth still from it as from the rocke and sandes o his cause it is clere that if he had that authoritie which he pretendeth vntrulie on his side yet the vse off it in this sorte were bothe by the rule off
are pleased with that which is doone as when they are displeased And therfore in that signification which Saint Paul and our sauiour Christ before him take this word offense the churche owghte to prouide that there be no offense giuen to one alone His thirde exception that I added this worde especiallie to the texte is a mere cauill For althowghe I vsed that worde more then is in the texte yet I bothe kepte the meaning and layde yâ— more open vnto the symple reader And wher he saâ—th that the Apostell would haue men more carefull off offending those whiche are not yet come to the churche then those which be off yt yt is altogether vntrew and not onely againste the meaning off the Apostle but against the generall rule off loue wherin thes degrees are assigned that we leuing all men should especially loue those which are members off the same bodye with vs Whereupon yt foloweth that the fruictes off loue wheroff this is one off the principall that we â—iue no occasion off offense owght rather to be performed toward them off the churche then towardes straungers And yâ— being certaine which S. Paul saithe that we muste doo Good vnto all but especially to those which are off the how shoulde of faithe yt muste needes folow off the contrary that we owght not to doo hurte vnto any but especially vnto those which are off the howshoulde off faithe And this degree doothe our Sauiour Christe him selfe note when he thundering againste offences addethe this as an encrease and an higher stepp in synÌ„e if be yt doone againste one of those which beleue in hym And where he saithe that straungers may be so withdrawne wheras there can be no suche feare off those whiche are alredie members off the churche he speaketh bothe contrarie to all experience and directly contrary to the Apostell which disputing in this case of offense saithe that the weake brother perisheth throwghe thes offences Laste off all yff he require authoritie Oecumenius a maÌ„ myche liked of the answerer thiÌ„cketh that he had an especiall care to those that be alredy members of the churche and Bucer hathe a longe treatise wherin he proueth that if either the Papistes or those that are members off the churche muste be offended that yt is more agreable to prouide againste the offence off the churche then off the papistes The seconde rule he aloweth but admittethe no competent Iudges of yt but suche as made the orders as the papistes whiche alowing off the Scriptures take them selues onely able to iudge off the sense off them And if there were but some few as he saithe where as there are many thowsansandes and those all priuate men where there be which haue charge yet I wolde know of the A. whether the spirite off God is tyed so ether to multitude or to autoritie that bothe a fewe and priuate may not espie faultes in the orders which haue bene deuised by many and publike persons To the thirde rule that all shoulde be doone vnto edifying he saithe that yt can not be applied to all thinges generally vsed in the churche but to praiers tounges c. specified in that chapter as if it were not the ordinary of the Apostell to proue the particulers by the generall and so to conclude that the exercises off praing singinge c. shoulde be doone to edifying because all things muste so be doone And where he woulde seeme to â—ye the Signification off edifying onely vnto instruction in the churche yt is manifeste that the Apostell carying yt also vnto thinges indifferent will haue this to be the rule off our priuate actions myche more off suche publike actions as I haue before declared And the wordes which saincte Paule vseth doo not require that ceremonies and orders of the churche shoulde edifye as he surmisethe yt is sufficient to come vnder this rule off the Apostle that they tende to edifyinge and he can not be ignorant that yt is one thinge to builde and another thinge to tende to building For the 4 rule which ys that they be doone to the glory of God he will acknowledge yt to be no rule to direct ceremonies by because yt is a rule to guide all actions whatsoeuer which ys a very straunge argument that because yt is a rule to guide all actions therfore yt is no rule to direct the churches And yff this be a sufficient cause off refusing yt as impertinent to this purpose then that rule which he off thes fowre dothe onely allwe as of that onely which he him selffe browght muste also be iudged impertinent to this purpose and so thruste owte off the doores with her followes For there is nothing whatsoeuer a man doeth whether priuately or publickly in matters either ciuill or Ecclesiasticall but he owght to kepe this rule that yt be doone in order and in comelines Where vppon my wordes And yet so left to the order off the church that it doo nothing agaynst rhe rules aforesayde he noteth that I am coÌ„trary vnto my selfe and contrary vnto the the Adm. Why dooth he note not the coÌ„trarietye Are these contrary Yt is not enough that the orders off the church be not against the vvord onles they be grovvnded vppon the vvord aÌ„d this that they are so left to the order off the church that yt doo nothing contrary to the rules aforesaide Declaring my minde at large before I haue in this last sentence put lesse then was in the other but there is nothing contrary I neuer dissented from him in that he saith the church may in making orders doo nothing agaynst the word but in this that he by reiecting the Admonition denieth that they ought to be cut owt according to the word and commaundement off God I bothe did and doo still dissent from him The article off the Duche church as yt is set downe off M. Beza we doo fully agree with which is that vve ovvght to esteme thinges indifferent by the circumstance off time place and person vveighed by the skoles off the vvord off God. There are diuers thinges besides in this diuision that are nothinge to the pourpose and vnworthy any answere And amongest others what an vntollerable mockerie off the reader is yt that where yt hath bene shewed that the wordes off the Admonition not commaunded in the scripture owght to be taken for that which is either particularly or in the generall commaunded he notwithstanding saith that peraduenture we may shift yt in saying that they ment either generally or particularly Wherin in steade that he should haue proued that they ment not so he maketh a paraduenture off that which hath bene before in so many wordes disputed Diuision 6. pag. 89. IN that yow wounde vpp the lordes daye withe other thinges which yow accounte merely indifferent neither set any marke in the foreheade off it whereby we might vnderstande that yow had anie other estimation off it then off the reste al
the whole churche is for that time of the assemblie publike so yt may be well said that the noÌ„ber which meete in that place which is so apointed by the churche to heare the worde off God how small so euer yt be can not hinder the publykenes off that assemblie The places quoted in the margente to proue priuate celebrating off the Sacramentes are handled in another place That which is alledged owte of an article of the Suche churche that thinges othervvise indifferent doo after lavvfull commaundement after a sorte chaunge theyr nature we willinglie subscribe vnto howbeit withe any thinge which is here in coÌ„trouersie it hathe no knot at all but is a wandring sentence which hathe no fellow For yt is not debated here what force off authoritie the thinges haue whiche the churche ordeineth but the questioÌ„ is altogether what are the thinges whiche fall into the churches order The nexte diuision wherin he requireth answer vnto the place off the Corinthes off doing all thinges decently and orderly ys answered in that I haue shewed that the churche being bounde to this commandement in making her Ceremonies is therbye tyed not onelye to place nothinge in the churche agaynste the commandement off God but is bounde euen according to the commaundement to frame her orders in indifferent thinges Wherin the answerer althowghe he oppugneth the groundes which I vsed for the proofe off yt doothe I suppose agree with me and therfore there was no cause he should haue required any answer Caput 2. Diuision 1. pag. 95. IF he would haue proued that which I denie he shoulde haue shewed that thes authorities affirmed that the churche in making lawes off thinges wheroff the scripture hathe not precisely determined neede not to haue respecte to the generall commaundements off the scripture before receiued but that he is not hable to doo with any approued sentence And albeit he hathe subscribed to this sentence before yet in the ende off this diuision he beginnethe to sâ—lyde into his former error saying that in matters not prescribed in the scripture he can not tel whether to resorte to knowe the vse and antiquitie of them but vnto councells stories and doctors As thowge the scripture were not the loode starre vnto the churche in her decrees towching suche thinges and as thowghe the firste churches vvhhich had not suche stories c. had not sufficient addresse in the light off the worde off God to make constitutions by I graunte the church by stories c. vnderstandeth of their antiquitie but the knowledge of their antiquitie maketh litle or nothing to know how profitable or conuenient for the churche they be vvhich being that onely vvhich is looked into in ther establishing is drawne from the scriptures and not from antiquitie Howbeit because he pretendith agreement in this that there be certeine thiÌ„ges lefte vnto the order of the church with this coÌ„ditioÌ„ that they be doone according to the generall coÌ„mandements off the Scripture we will houlde him by his former vvordes and will not suffer him to breake froÌ„ vs vnles he doo not onelie priuilie nibble and bite abowte but in manifest wordes eate vp his former saying Notwithstanding in the great plentie the A. hathe off places for the proofe off this which we denie not let yt be obserued what partly vnproper partly vngodly choise he hathe made The first sorte off Testimonies owt off the auncient writers and councells are off off those which are in controuersie as whether bishopps maie haue suffringanes whether there owght to be metropolitanes c. Wheroff althoughe he bringe no testimonie owte off his antors that they are in the churches power to order yet he settethe them downe as thowghe there were neuer question moued off them and as if he had gained them by stronge hande off reason The seconde sorte are off those thinges which beinge determined by the worde off God off or on are owte off the churches compas to take order in As is that which he reciteth owte of Iustine off the deacons carying the brede of the holy supper off the lorde to those which were not present at the action off the supper and that which he alledgeth owte of the councell of Neocesarea that no man should be minister before 30. yeare off his age Likewise that which he bringeth owte off the Amyran councell that a minister can not sâ—ll the churches rightes especially in that sense the councell meaneth which is for his owne priuate profit The first of these is coÌ„trarie to the institution and the laste being sacriledge are simply forbiddeÌ„ in the worde of god The Scripture also determining that a man off those giftes which be required off the Minister off the word maie and if nede require owght to be receiued vnto the ministery and shewing further that those giftes fall into yonger yeares then 3â— yt muste needes folow that the churche determining flatly that none shall be receiued to the ministery before those yeares shuttethe the doore off the ministerie vnto those to whom the worde off God settethe yt open And also that this Councell is altogether owte off place alledged considering that it determined not off this as off a thinge wheroff the Scripture had not giuen sentence but as off a thinge vnlawfull by the Scripture and for that purpose it alledgethe the example off our Sauiour Christe which preached not before he was 30. yeare oulde Thes thinges daungerously set downe off the An. as indifferent which are not I thought it necessary to giue the simple reader warning that the Answ measure wherwithe he meteth indifferent thinges is vnsealed Ther is a thirde sorte owte off Tertull. de corona militis â—d prax Basil de sancto Spiritu Wheroff beside that diuers off them were neuer conuenient some off them vnlawfull they are all suche as the authors doo not permit to the order of the churche but vnder a false clocke off tradition put the churches necke vnder a seruile yoke off them And wheras he would faine saue thes places owte off the fire by saying that althoughe some grew in time to superstitioÌ„ and that one of his autors gaue to myche vnto vnwritteÌ„ traditioÌ„s he doothe but burne his fingers the places he can not saue For yt behoueth him to shewe that certen thinges not determined in the word off God are in the churches power and thes places yff they proue any thinge proue that the churche is bounde off necessitie to certaine thinges wheroff there is no commaundement in the worde off God for the which cause they are alledged off the papistes from whom it is not vnlike but they were borowed But yet it appeareth that there were thinges in the churche not expressed in the worde I graunte and more then that thinges contrarie but by what right yt doothe not appeare And in deede iff the answerer had light vppon some weywarde aduersarye that woulde haue debated this question with him these places wolde haue giuen him greate
that yt is not our question which the A. dooth so shamefully affirme whether the scripture haue expressed all externall ceremonies c. In the next page vnto me shewing that the place off August to Casulanus is against hym for that where he would proue that certein thinges are in the churches power the wordes which he alledgeth say that the decrees of the forefathers and coustomes off the people off God are to be obserued tying the church to the decrees and coustomes off those which went before he answereth that August giueth a rule vnto priuate men and not vnto the church Wherein he condemneth him self off hauing alledged that sentence cleane beside the cause For it is manifest by the wordes immediatly goinge before that he alledged it to proue the autoritie off the church in thinges indifferent neither can yt in any other respect haue any bonde with that which he pretendeth to proue And nowe that yt is shewed howe vnfitly the place is alledged he shifteth his footing and in steade off a rule towchinge the church he maketh yt a rule for priuate men and in steade off shewing the libertie off the church he sheweth the bondage that a priuate man is tyed by Where I conclude against hym off that sentence off Augustine that we ought to followe the coustomes and orders off the Apostels and off the primatiue churches seing yt ys certein that they were our forefathers and the people off God and that we owght not to followe the Papistes which are neither the people off God nor our forefathers to the first off folowinge the Apostels he saith there were certeine thinges conuenient onely for their tymes which are not to be folowed Wherein onlesse he meane those thinges which are in controuersie yt is nothing to the pourpose and iff he meane them yt is a manifest begging off that which is in demaunde Vnto the seconde point off not taking the Papistes coustomes and decres he referreth me to other places Where notwithstanding he neuer answereth this argument off Augustin and so in pretence off a fitter place he hath taken a longer day Where he noteth me of ignorance in that I saide I could oppose Ignatius and Tertull vnto August and Ambrose towchinge the fast vppon the Lordes day saying that there is no difference betweene them th one part speaking off the Saturday the other off the Sonday I am contented to beare his charge off ignorance But is there any man so forsaken off all not learninge onely but common reason which dooth not vnderstand that thes propositions differ and fight amongest them selues yt ys a detestable thinge to fast on the Lordes day which is the Iudgement off Ignatius and Tertull and yt is lavvfull to fast on the Lordes day Which is the Iudgement off Augustine set downe off him selffe And when Ambrose speaking not onely off the Sabbothe off the Iewes but generally willeth that vvhatsoeuer the coustome off the church be in that behalffe off fasting yt should be folovved dooth he not manifestly ouerthrowe his saying which saith to fast on the Lordes day is to kill the Lorde And euen in the case off the fast off the Iewes Sabbothe which Casulanus demaundeth counsaill off yt appeareth there was great disagrrement betweene the aunciēt fathers consideringe that in the Canons which are attributed vnto the Apostles it was ordeined that if one were founde to faste on the Lordes day or on the Sabbothe one onely exepted being a clerke he should be deposed and being a layman separated from the supper off the Lorde If I haue off ignorance set the fathers together by the eares as he saith let vs see howe with his knoweledge he can part them and set them at one in this behalffe That the fastes which were kept in the tymes off Ambrose and Augustine and longe before and their allowance especially off the Lentenne fastes Were corrupte and prophanations off the true vse off fast yf neede were as I haue in part so yt might in more wordes easely be shewed That the counsaile giuè for the keeping of those superstitious fastes might haue place in a straunger and priuate mā which owght not to stand towardes a Citisen and hym that hath charge yt is apparent And yet bothe thes the Answerer would beare downe with wordes and nothing but wordes Where the answ saying that he knoweth nothing in the place off Augustine or Ambrose towching fasting which may not be obserued withowt iust offense may be taken either to speake of the places which I alledged thouching merite off fasting or the places which him selffe alledged I will rather esteme vntill I knowe the contrary that he ment off those which he browght him selffe then together with the slipp off standing daies off fast he should also fall flat by opinion off the merite in fasting And so I would haue the reader to take him that there be no offense taken at this place so doubtfully left Where he bringeth me in concluding that because the auncient fathers erred in some thinges therfore they saide true in none my wordes cary no suche sense But for so muche as they erred and euen in this matter off fast which was in hande they owght to haue no further credite then their authoritie is waranted by the word off God and good reason and that therfore the Answ which presseth their bare autoritie withowte any warde off the word of God or assistance of good reason ether browght of him selfe or fetched from them bringeth an intollerable tyrannie into the church of god This I gaue to vnderstand which because he durst not in plaine wordes gaine saie he hathe tourned my wordes vnto another sense Cap. 3. Diuision 2 pag. 103. Augustine saithe that the feast of Easter Pentecoste c. are the statutes off the Apostles and commended to the churches and addeth that they are not conteined in the scripture Whereuppon I concluded that there is some thinge by this reckening commanded off God to be obserued not conteined in the scripture and consequently that there is no sufficient doctrine conteined in the scripture whereby we may be saued To this the Doct. answereth that yt is a pretie and sound collection I haue in deed for shortnes sake trussed that into twoo or three propositions which to put in full and comptere argumentes required a greater nomber Howbeit the soundenes off the collection is apparant to all which will open their eies And because the Ans will yeald no obedience vnto the truthe vnlesse she taking him by the collar haue her handē vppon his throat the foundenes off the collection shall thus appeare vnto him What soeuer was decreed off the Apostles and commended vnto the churches to be obserued is necessarie but some thinges by Aug. and the D. not conteined in the word off God were decreed and commended by the Apostels vnto the posteritie of the churches therfore some thinges by Aug. and the D. not conteined in the word of God is necessarye to be
obserued The first proposition is manifest considering that the statutes off the Apostels are the statutes off Christ the seconde is Augustines allowed off the D. and iff bothe these be true then the third must needes be This being thus gathered that which I added that therupō yt folowed that there is no sufficient doctrine conteined in the scriptures is thus concluded That which doothe not conteine all the will off God necessarie for vs to doo conteineth no sufficiente doctrine vnto saluation but the scripture by Aug and the d. conteinethe not all the will off God necessary for vs to doo therfore the scripture by Aug. and the d conteineth no sufficient doctrine vnto saluation The first proposition is manifest in that S. Paul to deliuer him selffe from the gilte off bloude towards the Ephes alledgeth that he had taught them all the will off God the second foloweth off that which Aug. and the d. allowe for iff there be some thing commanded off the Apostells not conteined in the worde off God that being necessarie yt must folowe that some necessarie thing for vs to doo is not conteined in the worde And where the A. saithe that neither Aug. nor he say that any thinge not conteined in the scripture is so necessarie that it may not be altered vpon iust occasion by suche as haue autoritie he can not mocke the worlde after that sorte withe faste and loose at his pleasure For if they be statutes off the Apostels and commended vnto the churches what autoritie is there vppon earthe whiche can displace them which the apostels haue placed and iff it be madnes as he saith afterward owte off Augustin not to obserue them or once to reason off them how can they take order in them And this answer is ouerthrowne by the wordes off Augustin whiche folow immediatly But other things saith he vvhich are varied by regions as that some faste vpon the sabbothe daye some doo not c. are at libertie to bo obserued neither is there any better rule to a Christian man in thes then to do as the churche doothe vvhere he comethe Where it is manifest that he opposeth the tradition off the Apostels and ther statutes receiued by tradition vnto those thinges whiche are in the churches power to ordeine and to those wherin yt ys safe for vs to applie our selfes to the order off the churche They being therfore in this opposed the one beinge in the churches power the other are nor the one being of that sorte that off which side soeuer the churche determine off them a man may saflie obey the other muste needes be off that sorte that if the churche woulde otherwise ordeine of them then the Apostels that a man may not safely obey And in the nexte sentence the thinges which he opposethe those statutes off the Apostels vnto he calleth indifferent and therby giueth to vnderstande that he tooke them for vnindifferent and hitherto perteineth that he alledgeth owt off August in Zuinglius name and is found in his booke against the Donatistes where yt ys said that they are to be holden as giuen by Apostolicall autoritie Which is more then if he had said giuen by the Apostels considering that there are thinges giuen off the Apostels as counsailes and left at the churches order to chaunge vppon occasion as were the traditions which M. Caluin speaketh off but they were neuer left vnto the church with an Apostolical autoritie Which autoritie is off the higheste nature and proceding from the higheste court that can be And that this was Augustines meaning appeareth manifestly by the place which I alledged out of his booke againste the donatistes Where he saithe that all those thinges vvhich the churche houldeth generally are to be houlden as praeceptes off the Apostels althovvghe they be not vvriten wherunto he answereth nothing And by that place the folie off the answerer wherby he woulde tune Augustin by maister Caluins wreste is more plainly discouered For where he wolde haue vs thinke that August vnderstood those traditions onely which perteine to order and politie that may be varied and not vnto doctrine yt is manifest that Augustin in that place saithe that the Apostels gaue commaundement tovvching the not rebaptising off those vvhiche vvere baptized by Heretikes and that the custome of off the churche in not rebaptizing vvhich vvas obiected against Cyprian had the beginning off the Apostels tradition Nowe I would knowe off the answerer whether he dare saye that this iudgement off rebaptizing be off traditions which may be chaunged or whether there can be any iust cawse wherefore this may be altered And if he dare not saye this then let him confesse his faut and not seeke to make vp his breaches by sutche vntempered morter Where I saye that thereby there is a gate opened vnto the the Papistes to bring in vnder the colour off traditions all their beggery he answereth that the Papistes are rather confuted by this meanes considering that the Pope hath nether at all tymes nor in all places bene receiued Where to let pas that to helpe him selfe he addeth at all times which is not in Augustines rule he towcheth not the point off the cause For in that onely that it is saide that there be precepts off the Apostels vnto the church not cōteined in the word of God is pusshed at the strongest bulwarcke which the church hath to defend yt selfe against the Popishe beggerie and all other corruptions Which bullwarke is that whatsoeuer is commaunded of the Lorde vnto the church is conteined in the worde off god yff this be once shaken there is no sufficient resistance left vnto the church against this assaut For althoughe yt hath some great likelihood which hath bene generally and from the Apostels times receiued yet for somuche as yt is not vnpossible for the whole church to erre in some point and to haue taken vp or reteined off that which yt had before some thing not deliuered by the apostels it can be no sufficiēt bar to withstand the corruptions offred to be brought in by the Heretikes to saie that the church hath ether doon or not doon so and so sythēs the Apostels tymes And althoughe we might be assured that they are the precepts of the Apostels which haue bene so generally receyued yet the doore is not so close shut against corruptions as he pretendeth For this thing standing that there are cōmaundemēts giuen of the Apostels not cōteined in the word of god they may thrust in thinges which haue not had that generall and continuall obseruation For althowghe Aug. saie that they are the traditiōns of the Apostles which are generally receiued yet he dooth not saie that they onely are and the Heretikes whose corruptions should be repulsed in this respect that they haue not bene generally nor alwaies receiued might haue an easye replye that there is the same preiudice against certen off the commandementes off the Apostels committed to writing considering that
they haue nether generally nor continually bene receiued Where he alledgeth Zuinglius vsing a sentence off Augustine not muche vnlike to confirme childrens baptisme yt is to be noted that Zuinglins vsed not that sentence but in the confirmacion off a thing which hath certeine testimonie owt off the word off God as hath childrens baptisme whereit could not be dangerous and then yt is to be obserued that thereby is ouerthrowne his whole answer For Zuinglius taking that sentence off thinges which haue a necessarye obseruation in the church off God aÌ„d can not be chaunged putteth to flight his whole answer with the defense theroff which supposeth Augustine to haue gyuen this rule off thinges indifferent And therefore either the A. is abused in vnderstanding thes places off thinges indifferent or els Zuinglius in vsing this for the necessitie off childrens baptisme gaue his aduersaries great aduantage whilest they might haue answered with the D. that that authoritie off the Apostels is suche as the church vpon consideration may alter And where he alledgeth M. Caluin as one which had vsed that rule off Augustine I answer that yt is one thing to alowe the sentence off a writer and another thing to take some aduantage off it when his aduersarie presseth hym with his authoritie A man vseth some time that defense prouoked by the manner off assault off his ennemie which he would not doo iff he might choose his owne fight and it might serue M. Caluin in part for arm our against the bare autoritie off Augustine vrged off the Papistes which is not of proofe against the shot off the word off God. Where he saieth that the Papistes haue no wicked thing which ether hath bene generally obserued or whereoff he is not able to shewe the first autor I answer that it is well the church standethe not in neede off this defense off yowres For if the Lenten fast which in Augustines time had bene by longe coustome receiued if holy water holy oyle the superstition off praying towardes the East which are off those traditions that in the place by him alledged owt off Basile are attributed vnto the Apostles yff those I saie and suche like be against the word off God let hym tell howe he will cleare the Apostels of being autoures off these corruptions which are fathered of them by men off suche credit onlesse he flye to this rocke which by the doctrine off traditions he goeth abowte to vndermine that is to saie that the Apostles haue left in writing whatsoeuer they would haue the churches obserue For what autoritie soeuer he bring to shewe who were the first inuentors of these thinges yt being humane is counteruailed by them which haue caried them vnto the times off the Apostels Where vppon on that I saide that all the commandementes off God and off the Apostels are nedefull for our saluation he maketh such a terrible owtcrie as if all the church had bene set on fire I dowbt whether for the vanitie of the accusation I should vouchesafe yt of answer which for the strong and bitter wordes might seme to require a large defense Howbeit let him vnderstand that when I speake of all the commandementes of God and off the Apostels nether by the deduction off that which I handled nor by any Iudgement not altogether peruerted could I be thowght to meane any other commaundementes then those which perteine vnto vs And iff I had met with the vainest trifler and hawker after syllables which can possibly be yet the sentence I set downe is sufficiently fenced against all his greedines of snapping at yt For the Ceremoniall lawe and personall lawes giuen in times paste being nowe no commaundementes off God and the Apostels can not be comprehended vnder my wordes off the commandementes off God c. And iff a man leuing the deduction off the cawse which I had in hand will staie in the bare wordes which I vsed then euen bothe cermoniall and those which were giuen to particular persones albeit they be not to be doone yet are they for our better instruction in the will off God needefull for our saluacion To the argument which I vsed that iff Augustine would haue vs doo those thinges which the Apostels vsed in the churches not committed to writing then muche more he would haue bene off aduise that we should kepe that which is committed to writing towching their gouernement off the church he answereth nothing In the thirde diuision pag. 107. to that I found fault with off the second rule off Augustine which is that yt is madnes ether not to kepe or to reason off that vvhich is vniuersally obserued off the church he answereth that was a rule for Augustines time and not for all times Wherein he first condemneth him selfe off wandring from the cause which to shew that some thing may be established in our church not commaunded in the scripture alledgeth a rule that belongeth not vnto vs Then it is manifest howe helpeles a shift this is considering that the rule is generall and as generally gyuen as any other the rules which the A. comendeth vnto vs out off Augustine Beside that I alledged that euen in August time yt was wicked to giue any such autoritie to the decree or custome of men as not to enquire into yt which because he durst not denie he left vnanswered And whereas he addeth if it be not repugnant to the word I shewed that Augustine could haue no suche meaning which althoughe he confesse in one word contrary to that which he set downe yet in the same page lest the truthe should get any victorie at his handes he dooth in effect denie yt For he saithe that Aug. hath sondry times in suche rules made this exception iff they be not against faith c. Where yt is manifest that this exception is of those rules which are diuersly obserued and which he openly opposeth vnto this rule and suche as this is off the necessary obseruacion off thinges The place vnto the Gall. was needefully opposed For if there be commandementes off the Apostells vnto the churches and thinges which yt is madnes not to kepe or to enquire into not writen there ys something necessary to saluacion which S. Paul preached not considering that the whole summe off his preaching is cowched in writing The place off Augustine off abrogating ceremonies otherwise indifferent he answereth was not for his pourpose Howbeyt of his pourpose had bene to haue boulted owt the truthe yt â—â— cleare that hauing this cawse in hand whether ceremonies in them selues indifferent owght to be remoued he would not haue dissembled yt As for that he chargeth me with leuing owt off thinges before in the middest and after and thereof hath almoste fylled a whole syde it is vtterly vnworthy any answere considering that I haue left nothing owt which is in controuersie nothing which I doo not willingly confesse nothing that he hathe any aduantage by yea I left that
owt whereby I could haue taken aduantage For beside that the ceremonies with vs are in greater nomber then August alloweth all men see that they are more vrged and the omitting off them seuerelier punished then the breache off the commaundementes off God in which case he will haue them abrogated For he scapeth far better which hath not preached a whole halfe yeare in his church then which preaching euery weeke twise leueth off his surplis once And yt is better with him whose whole liffe then whose capp is owt off square vvhich is ennemie off the crosse off Christe then which can not abyde the crosse in baptisme with those which leaue owt some ceremonie in burying the bodyes off the dead then vvith those vvhich murder the soules off the liuing All which thinges the place of Augustine giuing me occasion off I notwithstanding for shortnes sake passed by The Answer to the laste place off Aug. was needeles being the same with the third vvhich I subscribed vnto The answer to your conclusion had bene superfluous I hauing before declared vvherein I agree vvith yowe ād vvherein I withstand yow And vvhereas I laye to his charge that he fetcheth rules ovvt off the vvritinges of mē to square the Ceremonies by vvhich he might haue had in the vvord of god here certeine ād altogether true vvhich are there vncerteine ād in part vntrue he answereth that he browght thē not for that pourpose wherein beside that he calleth thē rules his answer is directly against that which he hath set downe For he chap. 1. diuision 9. pag. 94. making his beginning off the sentence off Saint Paul which he saithe is a rule for the church to examine her ceremonies by pursueth the selfe same point vnto this place And where he saithe they are meete for a Diuine to know yt is no answer considering that yt may be profitable for a Diuine to know many thinges which yt is daungerous to propound vnto the church muche more to propound them as rules to grownd the churches lawes vppon In the next diuision there is nothing to be answered or which hath not bene answered before In the next where he saithe that the priuate sentences off men in their Epistels of these pointes are off more credite then that which they haue published vnto the whole world yt is a saying meet for such a cawse as he defendeth For all vnderstand that men be more soudeine in letters to their freindes then in their bookes and that they burne more candell and make the file off their Iudgement and vnderstanding passe oftener vppon those writinges which they will submit to the Iudgement off all men then to the iudgement off one vpon those which they knowe shall come on the racke off their wrangling ennemies then which shal finde rest in the bosome of an easie ād frendly interpretation vpon those which they thincke shall remaine vnto all posteritie then which they thincke shall dye at the least with him to whom they wrote And therefore iff there were occasions to moue them to speake otherwise in their publike writinges then in their priuate yet that turneth all to the aduantage off those which alledge that which was spoken vppon the howse toppe rather then off those which presse that was rounded in the eare off one man Yf their priuate writinges varie not from their publike yt is so muche better for vs which are well assured that the publike we haue alledged stand off our syde Where I suppose him to attribute the order off church matters vnto the Bishoppes which he parteth with the prince and other wise men albeit yt will appeare that he shutteth owt diuers which haue interest in that consultation yet he might haue some cawse to complaine in that behalfe and yt was I confesse my ouersight Vnto the two next diuisions pag. 117 c. Where I haue shewed the places off Deut. 4. 12. are still in force against the error off the A. which in saing that in the time of the Iewes and during that estate yt was not lawefull to adde any thing c. gyueth to vnderstand that we are not so streightly bound vnto yt at this tyme he answereth that he applied that rule vnto the lawe off faithe and manners ▪ but he shoulde haue vnderstanded that in restraining the rule after that sorte therby shutting owt the lawes off making orders and ceremonies off the church he still falleth into that fault whereoff he is accused For hauing shewed that not onely in thinges which he calleth matters off faithe and manners but euen in the variable Ceremonies off the church there ys a worde off God yt is also true that he is accursed which in making orders off the church foloweth not the rule off the lawes off God prouided in that behalfe And I hauing shewed that the Iewes them selues had certen Ecclesiasticall Ceremonies in mariadge buriall c. which are not expressly commanded vnto them yf they as he confesseth had addresse owt off the word off God for all their lawes off what sorte soeuer and this curse fell off them if in their variable lawes they ether added or diminished from the word of God yt muste needes folowe that the Christians nowe in their variable lawes bothe haue a word to direct them and a curse for either adding or diminishing from that word Onles he will saie that the Christians in thinges which were a like left vnto the libertie off them and the Iewes are les bownd to folowe the prescript off the worde off God then were the Iewes which ys absurd In the places owt off Ieremy and Isay yt is euident that there is set forthe howe there shal be greater knowledge off the will off god vnder the Gospell then vnder the Lawe And euen that which I haue set downe off the people which should be as learned vnder the Gospell as the Leuites and Priestes vnder the lawe beside that yt conteineth a manifest truthe and therfore can not be to flatter the people as he surmiseth may be also gathered off the 5. verse off the 56. chap. off Isaie Where the Lord promising to bring the Gentils into a better place of his temple then the Iewes had before dothe not obscurely declare that which I saide Vnto the twoo next diuisions pag 118 c. for replie I saie that he answereth not to the matter For the questiō is not whether we haue fewer or moe lawes then they but whether we haue direction by those lawes which we haue to all thinges whatsoeuer belongeth vnto vs to doo as they had to doo that which apperteined vnto them To proue that there is a word off God for all thinges vve haue to doo I alledged that othervvise our estate should be vvorse thē the estate of the levves Which the Ans confesseth to haue had directiō owte of lawe in the leste thing they had to doo And when yt is the vertue off a good lawe to leaue as litle vndetermined and withowte the
churche owght not to put forwarde any to the holy Ministery without good tryal off his sufficientie Then yt is vpholden off the wordes off the texte that twoo were set vpp and caused to stand before the congregation For after that sainct Peter had declared what maner off man he owght to bee which should fill vp the voide place off Iudas immediatly S. Luke sheweth that twoo were put vpp as if he shoulde saye consider whether thes he suche or no as ought to chosen and which agree with that which is required off him that must supplye this place The reason wheroff was for that all the men which where in the churche at that time were not capable off that function hauing by no lykelyhood bene with our sauiour Christe continually from the begininge off his preaching vntill the day off his ascension And vnles that S. Peter mente to subiect those vnto the tryall off the churche which were to be chosen why instructed he the churche and gaue a rule to seuer and trie them by After the churche agreed eyther by voice or by silence that they were suche as behoued S. Peter wente forwarde and conceiued a praier as followethe there in the texte And that this is the plaine and naturall order off that action he that hathe but one eye may easely see The scripture is shorte and in a few wordes comprehendeth many thinges and touchinge certein pointes off a storie leauethe other to be gathered off the diligent reader sometimes which was doone before by expressing that which was doone after other sometimes that which is doone after by expressing that which was doone before Whereoff yff neede were yt is not harde to shew diuers examples And theroff is that sentence so often vsed off the Hebrew Doctours 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Scripture stayeth yt selfe vpon or presumeth an vnderstanding reader withowt the vvhiche yt shall seme very vnsufficient that ys most perfect and vvithowt the which a greate portion off the vvorde of God ys loste And vvhere as yow saye that yt is certaine that there was no tryall because they were sufficiently knowne first yt appeareth not by any wordes in the texte that they were sufficiently knowē And considering that as yt comethe comōly to passe in a persequuted churche there were by al likelihood some lately come to the church they might be well vnknowne to thē althowghe they vvere well knowne to others Thē the questiō is not whether they vvere examined or no but vvether they vvere set vpp to be tried so that iff there vvere a proferr off tryall althowghe no tryall folowed the place ys aptly alledged For albeit they were knowne to the vvhole companie so that there needed no inquirie into their behauiour or other thinges vvhiche are in the compas off the churche to iudge of yet that ys no cause why they shoulde not be offered to the examinaciō Nether is yt reason that the knowne habylytie off some one or twoo shoulde breake an ordinary lawe in the churche off god And yow that haue serued your selfe more thē once or twyce vvithowt cause as shall appeare off the manner of ciuill elections to ouerthrowe the Ecclesiasticall might here by the consideration off them haue bene delyuered from this abusinge off yowr selfe and others Yow knowe in the election off followes and scolers where the lawe commaundethe an examination before the election althowghe the parties to be chosen be neuer so sufficient and there sufficientie neuer so well knowne to all to vvhō the choise belongethe yet the offer of themselues to be examined is so necessary that if that be not they cā by no meanes be chosen If therfore mans lawe in suche small elections hath suche force that yt will giue place to no mans excellencye or singularitie how muche more owght the lawe of God vvhich byddethe generally vvithout exception that they shoulde be tryed vvhich are promoted to the ministery in so greate and weighty an election to kepe her force Where yow say ther was no other cause off presenting them then that which is expressed in the text tell me what cause is expressed off presentinge them in the congregation surely none that I reade those two which I alledged in my replie are gathered but none is expressed So that yf there vvere no other cause off there presenting then that vvhich is expressed there shoulde be none at all and that action off the Apostles should be to no purpose What expresse wordes are there in the texte contrary to this tryall or at the lest offer off triall the vvordes shoulde haue bene noted the meaning shoulde haue bene beaten owte where vve neede your helpe there you forsake vs vvhere the meaning is cleare and vvithout controuersie there you trouble your selfe and vs boothe Yf yt be a rule to be folowed yt must be followed wholy saith the answere This is very definitiuely and magistrally said and being a dangerous error as that vvhich tendeth to the ouerthrowe of the cheifest heads of Christian religion is notwithstanding farced with scoffing questions in derision off the truthe I neuer learned nor I doo not vse to add or take away from the word off God I expounde the scripture and gather off it vvhich is not to add and in saying that something is not to be follovved off vs I take nothing away for I confesse yt to be so as the storie reporteh And althoughe that parte be no example to follow yet euen now and to the ende yt conteinethe a profitable doctrine But if I take away from the scripture because I say that some Parte of that action is not to be follovved you do muche more that saye nothing theroff ys to be followed I distinguishe beweēne that which was for a tyme and that which is perpetual and to distinguishe is not to dismember Al the reuelations I haue are owt off the reueled worde off God I knowe that this parte off this action touching the examination ys to be followed because yt is confermed by other places off the scripture thother not so for that yt hathe not the like confirmacion This spirite off slumber whearwithe the lorde hathe striken yowe in that yowe say that if a rule be to be followed yt is to be obserued wholely shall better appeare when I come to yower answer of that which is writen in the 51. and 112. pages of my former booke where this is handled No doubte saith he this is an extraordinary example As Archidamus said to his son̄e beinge to venterowse and boldhardy either put to more strēght or take avvaie some of this courage so I must admonishe yow that either yow woulde come stronger withe argumētes or els goo softlier to thes doctoral determinatiōs Is yt without all doubte that all thinges are here extraordinary nothing of necessitie to be followed For so yow say when yow will not haue yt followed in other parte because some one is not to be followed What is yt not necessary
examination be necessary for a deacon yt is muche more necessary for the minister againste that he saide that the fixt off the Actes coulde not serue to proue any thinge touching the ministers election because yt was off deacons he answerethe not but passethe by quietly and maketh no wordes But his other sayinge that there is no mention made off any tryall he holdethe still for good askinge me what one worde off tryall is there I answere that albeit there be not this worde trie yet ther is that which wayeth as muche for the greake worde loke ovvte can not be seuered from a triall And if S. Luke had but vsed the symple verbe which in our tounge signifieth consider yet that off yt selffe had force to haue leade the chusers to a tryall off them which were to be chosen nowe vsinge the compounde thereby he laide vppon them a greater necessitie and a more carefull diligence off triall off them Where iff the Aposteles had not mente herby to haue called the church to a diligente serche and tryall off those which were to bee choosen they woulde haue contented them selues to haue saide take from emongest you c. And althoughe the whole churche had knowledge off those which were the fittest to be chosen to that office which is bothe vnlike and almoste impossible seinge there were certeine thowsandes off late added vnto the churche yet euen those which are well knoweÌ„ vnto vs when they be to be chosen vnto suche great charges are to be inquired into a freshe For that knowledge off a man whiche is sufficiente for vs to liue with him in priuate societie and common course off life is not enoughe to promote him to suche a dignity in the churche and that experience off one vppon confidence wheroff wee durste truste him with our weightiest affaires is not sufficiente thereupon to commit vnto him the lordes matters So that consideringe the weighte off an ecclesiasticall office the manifolde creuisses off mans dissimulation with the dullnes off our sighte to espie them there can be no feare off too muche triall eueÌ„ off those whiche we thinke we knowe already And therfore allthoughe the whole churche had knowledge off those which were apte for that office yet the Apostels admonition off diligent considering whome they chose which coulde not be withowt tryall was not owte off time Againe that the Apostels giue in charge vnto the churche that they shoulde chose suche as had testimonie off there good behauiour perteineth to the examination for the churche in seking testimonie off there good conuersation tried them what they where And vnles this be tryall towching the conuersation off him which is to be chosen minister in the churche of England there is no tryall at all considering that the triall which is had is by the testimonie off certeine So I conclude that this place off the actes makinge for the examination off the Deacon is muche more stronge for the examination of the minister To the nexte section I answere not Diuis 4. What is in the begining off the boke because you set it not downe and I haue not the boke to see I will leaue to euery one to consider Howbeit the wordes which I alledge owte off yt where speaking to the Archedeacons he saithe Take heede that the persons vvhom you presente vnto vs be apre and meerâ— c. declare that the bishope passethe his election vppon the only examination off his Archedeacon But yt makethe no great matter howe many examine seinge the election and ordination hangeth only vppon the Bishoppes pleasure And he partly seinge that all the matter standeth in the courteousie off the Bishoppe and partly as yt semeth willinge that that gowlfe shoulde swallowe vpp all other mens interrestes in this election setteth him selfe to proue yt And where as I alledged that yt is not safe in so vveightie a mater to coÌ„mit that to the powre of one vvhich may be vvith lesse daunger doone by many he goeth abowt to proue that the bishoppe is off all other fittest for that matter Wherin obserue that the D. is quyte goone from the cause For the question is not whether he be off others most fytt but vvhether yt be fytt that he alone shoulde doe it So that if he will haue it a reasone againste the cause this yt is The bishoppe is more hable then any one to make a good examination therfore more hable to make yt then a great sorte more hable to make yt then any one therfore more hable to make yt alone then when he hath other ioyned with him Which is all one as iff he shoulde haue saide The righte hande is more apte to doe thinges then the lefte therfore yt is better they be doone by yt alone then with the helpe off the lefte I doe not here take exception againste the longe experience in thes thinges which he saithe the bishoppe hathe yet he cannot haue it at his first orderiÌ„ge of ministers aÌ„d others mighte haue yt as wel as he if the examinatioÌ„ were as well permitted vnto theÌ„ as vnto him I medell not also with the bishopes either sounde learning or ruled affections which what they be in some is well knowen what theye maye be consideringe that they be not tied to the rochet yt is easie to be considered Let him be as well experienced learned affected as suche a bishopp maie be yet hath he wonne nothinge by all this but that the bishopp owght not to be shute oute in this examination Where he saithe Surely if any one man or mo be voyd off such affefections and thought meet to haue such matters committed vnto him yt is the Bishopp yt had bene good he had assured that Surely with some reason otherwise yt must as yt is be holden for an vnshamfaste begging of that which is denied And off the same sorte is that which followeth that if he be worthie the office off a bishope he maie safely be credited with al thinges incideÌ„t vnto the same for this is that which lieth between vs whether yt be incident to the office off a bishoppe to haue thonely examination off those which are chosen to the ministerie Which yff I coulde geue you I woulde to be ridd off thes importunat askinges Yâ— followethe not because ciuill matters whiche touche the commoditie off this liffe maie be committed to one therfore ecclesiasticall also whiche concerne the liffe to come maie be so hazarded Nay for so muche as maÌ„s insighte into ciuille affaires and iudgement in them is sharper then in matters perteininge to the churche it is cleare that there ye more helpe required in thes then in the other Besides that when as princes by takinge counsailes vnto them in their weightie affaires off the whole realme and for better deciding off priuate mens causes appoincte whole beâ—ches off Iustices standing off fiue or sixe they doo sufficiently declare therby howe they haue the Iudgement off one be he neuer so wise
greatly in suspition off error It is sufficient that the prouer be off moo eies seinge better then one be trewe for the moste parte which is the nature off a prouerbe And in makinge off lawes the lawe giuer respecteth what is for the most parte expediēte and not that whiche maie be good some times For otherwise it might be saied the bishoppe shoulde not medle withe the election but his chapleine because yt may happen that he is more hable to medle in that matter then the bishoppe It is no smale owtrage yowe doe the churche off God to accounte off yt as off an ignorante multitude For onlesse yowe meane the churche when yowe saye then a thowsand other whiche be ignorant yowe speake beside the matter seing wee doe not permitte either examination or election off the ministers to euery multitude and blinde assemblie but vnto those onely whiche make an open and cleare profession off the trewthe Therefore yowre glorious and great speaches alwaies off the Bishoppes are affectioned and aspire somewhether For yf they preceded off the feare off God yt can not be but that feare of God and spirite of humilitie whiche taughte yowe to speake so of them woulde haue spoken muche more reuerently off the churche whose seruantes they owghte to be And when yow saie or that in suche matters be farr inferior to him yff yow meane ten thowsand off those whiche be off the churche the voice is straunge and needed some reasons to acquainte vs with yt especially seinge it touchethe as yowe thinke the cause But yowe wander still and the prouer be yowe confute not For let yt be that the bishope seeth more then 10000. off the churche whiche proportion beinge more vnequall then that betwene the sonne and the mone carieth withe yt a sente off the popishe insolencie admitte I saie that the bishopes eie be so good yet if the churche haue anie eie at all that beinge ioined with his will see better then his alone And that is the meaninge of the prouerbe not to compare one good eie with manie bad but to shewe that that whiche alone i◠hable to doe somewhat withe company and helpe is hable to doe it better And therfore oneles yowe will haue yowre bishoppe so full off sighte that he can leaue no thinge vnseene and to haue receiued the spirite withowt measure which is onely proper vnto our sauiour Christe yowe haue yet browghte nothinge to shewe why he owghte not to haue the assistaunce off others in the examination off the minister S. Paule refusethe not to learne of the churche off God in those thinges wherin he wente as farr beionde the bishope as any bishope can goe beionde the simplest of his diocese Apollos was instructed and tawghte of a powre handycraftes man and his wiffe In the counsell of Nice a simple man and one that knewe nothinge but Iesus Christe bothe ouerturned ād turned a Philosopher whome all the 318. Bishopes coulde not moue bothe S. Paule and Apollos and the 318. Bishopes were off Singuler knowledge in those thinges wherin they were aided and desired to be aided off those which were a great deale inferior vnto them What honie haue our bishoppes eaten off that they can see so clearly into the fitnes off a minister that the churche off God can not bothe see that whiche they see and that also whiche they haue ouerseene Belike yt is because our bishopes are more sharper of Sighte then euer any were and our churches more ignorante then any haue bene before And if the churches were tawghte of them wherein they are for the moste parte smalliest beholdinge vnto them as the plentifull knowledge of the churche shoulde haue bene a seale of their aboundance so what soeuer is saide off the ignorance argueth nowe the wante of their knowledge and in the ende retourneth to the weight of their condemnation Which yff it were well considered of him yt semeth that for the ialousie he hathe ouer the estate of a Lorde Bishope he woulde haue spoken more reuerently off the churche Wheras yowe say that offices off greatest charge are onely in the Princes choise Still yowe confute your shadowe for I speake off those elections wherin diuers haue interest sainge that yt seldome commeth to passe that vppon one mans reporte off his habilitie vvhich is to be chosen all the reste vvhich haue interest in that election vvill giue theyr voices What worde is here which giueth occasion to speake off the princes elections which are made by her selfe alone yowe haue therfore picked a quarel to speake off the welbestowing of offices onles yt shoulde be some profit vnto yowr selfe which yow imagined might come by sprinckling off thes faire wordes I see no ende of yt sure I am yt is no answere vnto that which yt pretendeth For my parte I will not contrary that yow speake of the good bestowing off the offices by the prince And I am well assured that some of them be bestowed of moste worthye men But yt is good for princes to haue as it were eares off horne againste suche sweete songes as these be and notwithstanding them to stire vpp them selues to greater warenes in the bestowing off their offices Therefore to let passe the offices off charge in the com̄on wealth for the Ecclesiasticall charges which her maiestie bestoweth althowghe they be off the greateste porte yet they will appeare not off the greatest charge vnlesse yow meane charge actiuely that is to saye great charge and vnprofitable burden vnto the churche not bearinge the churche but borne of yt euen almoste to the breakinge off her backe And those also as I thinke are not chosen off the prince alone but named onlie and chosen off the canons off that sea wheroff he is to be appointed bishoppe and confirmed off the Archbishoppe But lett yt be here obserued that Maister D. seemeth by affirmation off this thing although falsely without saying any thing against yt to gïue the election off the bishop onely vnto the Prince whiche if he maie doe in the bishopes whiche he taketh head ministers muche more maie he doe it in the other ecclesiasticall orders which he accounteth vnder the bishope here first I woulde knowe wether he will stande to this or no or whether hauing nothinge to answere he vsed this for a shifte Then whether the Bishopes will take in good parte this translatiō of the churche righte into the handes of the ciuil magistrate ād whether for there tēporalties as it wer for a messe of rise potage they will suffer the churches inheritaunce to be thus riotowsly alienated to be offered where yt is not asked to be geuen where it is not receiued And iff they be contente to parte from this iff need be that they maie kepe thother or be contente that maister D. forrewarde off his proctorshipp shoulde haue the disposing off it at his pleasure then I shall haue something more to saie in this behalfe The election off ministers committed
Thes differences woulde haue serued yow as well as those and possiblie yf they had taken yow in the heade yowe woulde neuer haue let them goe withowt giuing some tribute to the lengthening off your boke But in all this diuersitie yow recken vp there is a perpetual harmonie againste the election made by one bishope againste the ambition off the elder which thrusteth owte his fellowe elders against the church robbers especially which bende ther force to spoile the people of ther consente in election off their ministers Yf yowe had shewed any diuersitie in this yow mighte haue helped your cause somewhat To those which are bleare eide one light semeth two and ther fore to M. D. which hathe the eie sight off his minde scattered they seme to differ which agree well together I well remembred what I wrote and yt hathe not the weighte off a feether to ouertourne the election off the minister by the people For yt followethe not because one deacon is inferior to the pastor therfore the whole churche is inferior to ether the pastor or the deacon or the deacon may not chuse the pastor therfore the whole churche may not chuse him But this had bene wel concluded one deacon is inferior to the pastor therfore muche more one of the people ād one decon can not chuse a pastor therfore muche lesse one off the people Which mighte haue bene casely considered by proportion off the bodye which S. Paule dothe so often poincte owte the estate off the churche by For sett a parte the heade which is our sauiour Christe and ther is no one parte so noble or so necessarie but being compared together with all the partes off the bodie that are vnder yt it giueth place and is inferior vnto them And it may be shewed by example that they that in a societie be equall yea superior vnto any one in that societie are notwithstanding inferior to the whole Peter and Iohn were equall vnto any two in the whole colledge off the Apostels and yet they were inferiour to the whole companie off the Apostels For beinge sente off them they muste be inferiour to those that sente them and being Ambassadors from them they receiued commaundement Paul and Barnabas were by their dignitie off Apostleship superior to any whiche were in the churche off Antioche and inferior to the whole churche for the cause before alledged Furthermore wee doe not permit the choise off the pastor to the people onely but to the choise off the eldership so that althoughe the people alone shoulde not be superior vnto the pastor yet all together are which haue to doe in that election And althoughe thes thinges are so plaine that they coulde not lightly be hyddē from him that hathe but moued his lypp to the cuppe of sounde diuinitie yet maister D. standeth still amased merueiling as he that hauing stepte manie years whē he awaked thowghte al thinges straunge Thes are the knowē lawes of the howse where yow were borne where also yow vndertake professiō of Do. yt is a great fault that yow are a straūger at home The peoples examinatiō off their ministers especially standeth in their behauiour And seinge in the churche off God from him that cleaueth wood to her which grindethe in the mill ther is none so ignorant but knowe and can giue reason off principall poinctes off the Christian religion the Elders which be the flowre off the church can much lesse be so ignorant as yowe make them Naashe the Amonyte meaning to dishonour the people off God thowghte yt reproche enoughe to the Gilcades yf he mighte haue put owte their right eies and althowghe a barbarous and cruell enemie off the people off God yet woulde haue satisfied him selfe with that but yow are not cōtente with that onles yow put owte bothe their eies and leaue them as blinde and ignorant bussardes Thes reproches off ignorance so oftētimes caste vpon the people off God are not spoken with the toūge off Canaan but is the proper dialecte off the Papistes and yt is reprochefull not vnto men but vnto the sonne off God whose bodie the churche is and whereoff he is the heade The prophet speaking off churches which should be gathered vnder the gospell saithe that the earthe shall be full of the knowledge off God as the waters vvhich couer the sea the accomplishment wheroff maie appeare in all places where there is any teaching minister which dothe the office of a faithfull pastor I coulde a great deale easelier beare the reproches which you vtter againste me but vvhen I heare yow thus raile vppon the lordes hoste so indefinitely speakīge of the churches of God yow are vntollerable yet if I shoulde speake againste this as oft as yow giue occasion I shoulde neuer haue doone And if nether yow vvill ceasse this language nor those that shoulde looke vnto yt vvill stope this incircumcised mouthe I vvill commit the cause vnto the lorde and vvaite for his iudgement Off the meanes of an exacte examination off the habilitie off the pastor with owte the helpe off the lorde bishoppe is spoken in an other place vvhere shall be examined vvhat the D. hath to saie It hathe appeared howe vntrwe yt is that the Deacō is superior or hathe moe giftes thē the reste of the bodie of the churche And besides that yt shall appeare in place a moste absurde sayinge that the deacon is aboue that elder which I meane for I meane the same vvhich S. Paule meaneth ther was no occasion at all here to speake off the superioritie off a deacon vnto a senior For ether he owghte to proue a deacon aboue a pastor or els he hathe saide nothinge to that vvhiche is in question In the 308 page the Bishoppe is auowed to be a Pastor here he is Superior to a Pastor and therfore no Pastor for there can be no comparison but betwene twoo thinges at the leste ād yt is very strange that a man shoulde be higher then him selffe So that to defend these bishops and Archebishops the Ans hath neede haue a newe grammer and a newe logicke for they transcende and goe beionde all the rules that euer yet vvere hearde of I knowe what is vsed with vs but is that a sufficient answer is this yowr defense off the booke I proue him to be deacō and yow can not denie it therupō I cōclude that he is inferior to the pastor and yow saie I knowe an archdeacon withe vs maie be minister off the worde But the Question is not vvhat he is but what he maie be by the vvorde off God for yow owghte to haue shewed that a man may haue the order off pastor and deacon at once For yf he be but a deacon and no pastor then beinge inferior to the Pastor he owghte not by him selfe alone iudge of the sufficiencie off a Pastor yf he be bothe a Deacon and a pastor at once then in steade off ministers yow bringe monsters
some reason and will yow cast yt awaie with a worde But the order of trying his gifte off expounding is good and for the moste parte necessarie For althowghe yt may be perceiued by questioning shortly with him what his vnderstanding is in the misterie off Christ yet his vtterance disposition and memorie giftes necessarie for a minister can not be tried but by suche a profe or by long acquaintaunce with him which can be seldome betwene the ordeiners and him that is to be ordeined And iff in well ordered cities ther is no man admitted to set vpp in any mysterie onlesse he haue offered to the Maisters off the companie some worke for a masterpeece and declaration that he hathe skil in that he will open his shop for how muche more in the ministerie off God owght it to be prouided that before he be allowed to worke in the great misterie off our saluation and laye hand to the framyng of the siluer vessels of the church off God the maisters off the companie especially whiche are the Elders off the church being best able to iudge owght to haue triall how he handleth the goulden hammer off the word off God. But if M. D. which at other times loseth the corde off lawfull vocation will here to pinche me vvith all girde it so streight I answere that neither he which is to be admitted doth it withowt vocation being therunto called by those whiche haue to doo in the electiō nether doo they admit him withowt warrant of the word of god For the lord in com̄aunding to take a sufficient triall of his abitilie ād that precisely before he be admitted doth in that commaundement include all thinges that pertaine therto For as vvhen any peace off grownd is giuen vnto one ther is also a waye to come vnto it graunted withall althowghe the same be not mentioned so the lord in giuing to his church power to trie his ministers can not by any meanes bethowght to haue hedged vp the way which leadeth neerest vnto that triall And beside the reason heroff owt off the word off God ioyned with the practise off diuerse churches We haue plaine examples in the scripture as I haue shewed in my former booke And how dothe not the A. here condemne manifestly the exercise of common place vsed in the vniuersities wherin younge men that they might he better prepared for the ministerie do interprete in there courses the scriptures which haue no admittance or ordination vnto the ministerie I will let yow passe heere with this contrarietie with yowr selffe that yow graunt to euery minister the rule off his flock whiche deni it so stoutlie in other places where yow giue it to the Bishops and Archbishops If yow had found suche a one in me yow would haue made suche hue and crie sufficient to haue raised a whole countrey But I will not presse your contrarieties but wher they be pregnant And so I leaue it to the iudgement off the indifferent reader how well the answerer hathe mainteined the wantes off the booke which were by me in this behalffe assigned Their wordes are to be seene my replie and your answer let the world iudge what forehead there is in him which saith they condemne all as euill and as vnlearned lest I spend moe wordes in prouinge that it is light at noone daies There is more likelehoode that for want of iust triall they might be thowght to denie a lawfull callinge to those which are admitted by the common order But it followeth not theroff that they saie there are none lawfullie admitted for the cause before alledged And it is vnreasonable yow should charge them vvith that vvhich I vvrite or vvith that the second admonition vvriteth Touching the nombre off sufficient ministers in Fraunce I wrote that vvhich I receiued wether it be trew or no it may easely be knowen of those vvhich vvill enquire off it Take yow good leaue to speake all good off the vniuersitie it shal be my recreation after your importunate barkinges yt is my dailie praier it may goo well with her and althowghe I be from her yet I caried some of her boweles vvith me so that whether there be in her either iust cause of ioye or sorowe I haue them in com̄on with her I can take no exceptiō vnto yowr 450. vniuersitie preachers not hauīg the register of the vniuersitie but yow did warely saie knowē preachers and not godly preachers for some of those haue troubled the vniuersitie and other places with popishe leauen of pargatorie free will ād Abrahams besome cut owt by a larger measure then euer our sauiour Christ taught But to le◠the corruption off some and the inhabilitie off other some with the so rare preachinge off certeine that as at the appearinge off a comete or blasinge starr or some other notable change in the heauens so at their preaching there may be feare off some calamitie to come to let all those goe to helpe to make vp this garlond off 450. yow owght not haue forgotten to subducte those which are taken awaie by death those vvhich are thrust owt off the ministerie and musled by the bishops those which are mued in cloisters those which beside the necessarie vse off the vniuersitie remaine there and those vvhich hauing charges in the countrey lurke there These being subducted excepte the accomptes doo rise better then yow shew I feare me that I may cut of from the numbre of 2000. hable ministers in the whole church of Englād which I assigned before as many as yow take from that nombre which I reported to be in Fraunce And alas what are these fiue loues and 2. fishes to so many thowsand churches So that if yow had not doone it at vnwares and had not had an other ende then is false owt we should haue had to thāke yow for this leuie of ministers vvhich the vniuersity hathe bred as that which strēgtheneth the fewnes off hable ministers which I assigned M. D. hand is still on his halfepennie and as Plautus Euclio he suspecteth euery man for his treasure and by putting his hand so often to the sore vvhen he is not touched he declareth plainely vvhat is the greife The feare of spoile off the churches goodes is not vvithowt cause But there was no cause to suspecte it in the Innes off court which off their yearly exhibitions giuen to mainteine there studies haue erected vp three diuinitie lectures more for any thing I know then all the bishops haue doone Therfore yow euill requite this liberalitie with such suspitions Yf the Centurion deserued praise for building a Synagoge and is cōmended by the holie Gost to all posteritie for his liberalitie in prouidinge a place for the preachinge off the word then they for there liberalitie in prouidinge for the minister him selfe deserued a better gratulation then this Yf they had throwen in somewhat into the Corban and botomlesse bagge it should haue bene counted to them for
the goulden calfe for a token ād signe of the presence of god called yt by the name off god now hauing no reason but off the papistes onely to vvarante this opinion off his accustomed lyberalitie in giuing that vvhiche he can not holde he admitteth for soothe that yt is metonimically spoken yet after that by force off the trewthe yt is vvrithen from him he reachethe owte his hande after yt saying that yt is but a coniecture yt is a certeine trewthe M. W. and no coniecture standinge not vppon the iudgemente off men whiche I coulde alledge of diuers lerned that haue writtē of that place but vpon vnfailible reasons wheroff that is one which I haue alledged off the vsuall phrase off the scripture in speaking of signes And iff it had beene lawfull for them to haue likened the maiestie off God vnto a calfe or to haue had suche a token off the presence off God it had not bene vnlawfull to haue called yt Sacramentally by the name off God. Moreouer forasmuche as the knowledge off God is a habyte whiche god gyuethe by lytle and lytle throwghe teachinge yt is impossible that the Israelites so well instructed and hauing gyuen also good experience before that they knewe the trewe God shoulde so sodenly at one instante so many leese all that knowledge off God and take a calfe to be that whiche browghte them owte off the lande of Aegypte but as yt cam by litell and litle so it muste of necessitie haue a tyme wherby it mighte by litle and litle be loste And hetherto is referred that which Maister Caluine alledgeth off the consente off the people to that whiche Aaron saide off kepinge holy daie vnto the lorde wherby they declared that they helde that for good whiche Aaron saide Further if the Israelites had taken the calfe for their God Moses in gyuing them yt to drinke after he had betē it to powder should haue driuen them to a greate synne and haue killed their consciences in compellinge them to drincke that whiche they were perswaded to be a peece of the true God which browghte them owte of Aegypte Whiche thinge when no man of any knowledge can saie yt is certeine that Moses did thinke that the Israelites did knowe that the calfe was not the true god Beside that albeit Aaron faulted greuously yet it is great iniurie doone vnto him to thinck that euer he woulde haue either cawsed or consented a calfe to be made if he thowghte that the Israelites woulde haue taken that for the true god yea after they had vttered that voice Thes are they Gods c Yt is saide that Aaron seinge that made an altar before the calfe Whiche he woulde neuer haue doone if he had vnderstanded the Israelites as the D. doothe I had not the texte before me when I wrote but I tooke the sense which I was well assured off Seinge they bothe consented to Aaron saying ye shall kepe holy day to the Lorde and did so Therfore allthowghe it be subiecte to the reprehension off a cauiller yet I altered nothinge off the meaninge off the place in that I set downe that the Israelites saide they vvould kepe holy day to the Lord. I put yow ouer to the learned writers and now I haue toulde yow off twoo which doo in plaine wordes whet their stiles directly againste yowr distinction Yow mislike off the distinction but yow are driuē to vse yt yow excuse not the papistes but yow lessen their cryme and therfore yow may well be called their Patron For yt is a precepte amongest the Rethoricians that iff the clients fault be apparante the aduocate shoulde confesse it and then employe the strenghte off his witte to cawse it seme as lytle as maie be And where in the distinctiō of degrees off Idolatrie yow saie that the Iewes did oftentimes offende in the laste and the worste and the Papistes not yow in deede saie it ād saie it againe but yow bringe nothinge to proue yt once I coulde replie that the Papistes vsed more detestable Idolatrie then euer did the Iewes For shewe me by any good authoritie or reason that the Iewes did euer thinke or teache that a deade Image off wood and stone shoulde be worshipped with the honor off the holy trinitie and this notwithstandinge is tawghte off the Papistes Or shewe me where euer the Iewes did worshippe so vile a thinge as a peece off breade whiche receiued into the stomacke is after caste into the priuie And as yt can not be denied but they take that breade for the verie God whiche made heauen and earthe So I am perswaded that yt can neuer be shewed that the Iewes were euer so grosse to beleue that anie symple creature seen with their eies was the liuinge God. The Ans bindethe well in the endè withe his therfore yf they repente c. Wherfore because their Idolatrie is not so greate as that off the Iewes as if their mercie whiche they receiue vppon repentance depended vppon the smalnes or greatnes off their Idolatrie or as if the Iewes which repented off their Idolatrie receiued not mercie likewise Verily I can see no bande to tiethis therfore with that whiche wente before yt is a weffe not worthe the takinge vpp For what needed this nowe thrise at the leste that they are not to be reiected owte off the churche as iff any denied that but where yow add nor owte off the ministerie if yow mean off suche as haue fallen from the gospell and mynisterie especially to Idolatrie I can not beare yow it is to heauy a cōclusiō for so weake premisses for Maister D. is to muche abused if he thincke that the same kaie openeth the doore off the Ministerie and the churche doore Where he snatcheth at the exāple of Aaron who after that he fell was receiued into the preisthood againe which he did before in the example off S. Paule that I browghte forthe he declareth what a hongrie cause he hathe whiche is gladd to pull the meate oute off the fire that yt fedethe on But alas this helpethe not for it is a singular example and maie not be drawne into imitation At which answer my thinke I see the D. buskell and prepare him selfe to crowe saying that so all maie be wiped whatsoeuer is browghte I will not doo therfore as yow to whom yt is enowghe to saie vvithowte proofe but vvill shewe the reason whiche onles yow reste in yowe shal haue the cōtrouersie vvithe yowr selfe yowr self affirme that the lawe in Ezech. and in the booke of the kinges towchinge the not admittinge of the Leuites to the ministerie is a iudiciall lawe of Moses and gyuē to the Israelites onely whiche if yt be trewe yt being generall muste needes comprehend the faulte off Aaron And therfore yt followeth that the admittance off Aaron to his ministerie againe beinge directly contrarie to the lawe was by an especiall dispensation Moreouer Aaron beinge appointed to the ministerie immediatlie
then a dowsen lines of the place from whence he rente this Hauinge inueighed againste the Popishe election bothe for that in yt one bishoppe hathe all the powre and for the vnworthines off those which were chosen he addethe yt semethe therfore that there ys nothinge so agreable to the ordinance off god and to the oulde institution as that all the vvhole church off the faithfull amongeste a people together vvithe certaine learned and godlie bishopes ad other faithful mē hauinge skill in thinges shoulde choose a pastor and a lytle after Let therfore thes provvde bishops and folish Abbats goo shake their eares for yt is conueniente that the righte off the election shoulde be in the povvre off the churche off the faithfull instructed by the counsels off learned men for as that matter ovvghte not to be in the povvre of one so ovvghte not the rude and vnlearned multitude chalenge vnto yt selfe alone so great vveighte off the election c. Let vs nowe see whether the Ans be anie faithfuller in alledginge Maister Bullinger Firste who denieth that Paule and Barnabas did chuse elders and ministers there When we gyue vnto them the gouernmente and direction off the action there is no reasonable man can Imagin that we shut them owte off the election But iff yow thinke that because maister Bullinger saithe they chose therfore he affirmethe that they chose alone and withowte the churche thes wordes can by no means proue yt his iudgemente in other places quite ouerthroweth yt heare therfore what M. Bull. writeth Those vvhiche thincke meaninge the papistes that the bishops and Archbishop haue povvre to make ministers vse thes places of the scripture Therfore I lefte the at Crete that thovv mighteste appointe elders tovvne by tovvne and againe take heede thovv laye not thy handes rashely of any but vve ansvver that the Apostels did not vse anie tyrannie in the churches nor to haue them selues alone doone these thinges vvhiche perteined ether to the election or ordination other men in the churche shut ovvte For the Apostels and elders did create bishops and elders in the church but communicatinge their counsaile vvithe the churches yea and vvithe the consente and approuing off the people vvhiche dothe appeare plainly by the election and ordination off Mathias c. And there citinge howe Moses did cōmunicate the choise off the magistrates withe the people he addeth And so no dovvbte did blessed Titus althovvghe he had hearde thovv shalte appoincte elders in Creta yet vnderstood that nothinge vvas permitted hym to doo priuatly vvithovvte the aduise off the church And because this place is cited also to proue that Maister Bullinger shoulde thinke that the Election 14. Actes shoulde be made by Barnabas and Paule let the Doctor heare what maister Bullinger writethe in the page before sayinge That the lorde from the beginninge gaue authoritie to the churche to chuse and ordeine fit ministers hathe been shevved before in the second sermone off this decade by the example off the moste eldeste churches in the vvorlde Ierusalem and Antioche vvheroff the one did not onely ordeine seuen Deacons but also Matthias the Apostle the other did set aparte to the ministrie the tvvoo notable Apostels off Christe Paule and Barnabas vvherunto is added that the churches off the gentills beinge instructed or directed off Paule and Barnabas did chuse by voices elders or gouernours off the churche Where also he quoteth the same place off the Actes whiche is here in question Thes was I constrained good reader to set downe that thow mighteste vnderstande that the weapons wherwithe the D. fightethe againste this cawse are not as he falsly pretendeth drawne from the godly writers but ministred vnto him by some owte off the armorie off the papistes whose they onely be The places whiche I alledged proue firste that yt is vsuall in the scripture to ascribe that to the principall in an action whiche is commen to them withe other then that althowghe S. Luke had made no mention off the election off the churche but onely saide that Barnabas and Paule chose yet therby coulde not be concluded that the churche had no intereste in the election but onely this that Paule and Barnabas were the cheife in that action Yff that be ascribed vnto Iosue whiche he procured onely and layed no hand vnto howe much more maie yt be ascribed vnto Paul and Barn. whiche they bothe procured ād had some doinge in and therfore that example of al is moste apte for that wherfore it is alleadged I perceiue there is nothinge so cleare whiche the D. will not essaie to darcken seing he saith that yt rather appeareth that the people permitted the election off those gouernours to Moses The contrarie wheroff manifestly appearethe for after that in the 9. verse Moses had bydd them chuse gouernours in the nexte verse he saithe that the people accepted that commaundmente and thowght off yt as a thinge equall Therfore it is moste vntrwe that they retourned yt into Moyses handes againe for then they woulde haue answered that yt was not meete for hym to committe the election vnto them but rather for the wisdome wherin he excelled to doo yt him selfe And where the D. reasoneth off the 15. verse vpon the wordes I toke c. that phrase dothe rather ouerthrowe his purpose then cōfirme yt for it semethe to haue a relation to the gyuinge ād presentinge of those whiche they they had chosen And the very same Phrase is vsed afterwardes in the 23. vers of the spies whiche were sente to spie the lande which notwithstandinge were not onely sente off Moyses but off the people also as appeareth in the 22. verse and in the booke off numbers where the lorde doothe not onely attribute this sendinge off spies vnto Moises but vnto the people Moyses gaue no further authoritie vnto them then they whiche in ecclesiasticall elections ordeine those whiche were chosen before and confirme the elections whiche are made Therfore as those ordinations exclude not the authoritie off election so this confirmation off Moyses did not deuoure that powre off election whiche he had gyued them but theyr elections and his confirmation made vp a full creation of those gouernours Towchinge the false accusation off pushing at the magistrate I haue answered Those verses off the 22. and 23. off the 25. Actes whiche yow alledge shewe who bore the swate in the makinge of that decree But yet in that the letters were written in the churches and not onely in the Apostels and Elders names and for that the decree is ascribed vnto them by whome the letters are subscribed yt is manifeste that that consente and subscription off the people occupied some rowme in that decree Nether is that alledged owte of M. Calu. any thinge againste that I saied that the people had to doo in yt and gaue consent but giueth asmuch to the church as I in saying the churche committed the matter vnto the decision of the Apostels
Caluin Beza Bullinger Zuinglius and others bringe to proue that the church ought to haue right in the election off their minister and that yt belongeth not to one bishopp to choose a minister they may answer that the bishop chuseth not but the church yea the whole realme For the prince and the people and the vvhole lande haue giuen that powre vnto the Pope and the pope to him so that whatsoeuer is doon in that election by the bishoppe is doon by the people But see howe I forget my selfe which alledge this vnto him as a greate absurditie whose case in this question is all one with the Papistes yet euen with him it shall be sufficient to vntie the bande which wee haue bounde our selues with onles he will haue the election still continewe in the Popes handes And indeede he calleth vs heere to the consideration off our sinnes wherby wee haue thus prodigally wasted and gyueÌ„ into the handes of straungers the liberties which were bowght with so great a price And wee haue better cawse to thinke the earnestlier off them for somuche as the Answ lawgheth vs to scorne and woulde make vs beleue that wee consente to elections when wee are a sleepe that we chuse those whom wee refuse and so other eatinge the kernels he maketh vs not a diner but a feaste with the shels To all thes accusations off the A. wherby he chargeth the ciuill elections off bodies politike if I shoulde answer that The disorder off the bishoppes election is suche the peace with Sathan and synne and contention with all goodnes that hath and dailie dooth issue by them into all the partes off the Realme so horrible the ambition of the person standinge in election so shameles the corruption off some the partiall affection off others to their kinsfolke their seruaÌ„ts their seruaÌ„ts freeÌ„ds the carelesnes of others in some the waÌ„te of sufficieÌ„t knowledge in other some of sinceritie and purenes of doctrine to be shorte in all the wante of dewe consyderatioÌ„ of weightynes of that ministerie is so apparante that as that manner off election for necessarie cawses is altered in the best ordered churches in Europe so it is desired to be altered in the churche of Englande by those which be wise godly and learned and by those which loue the godlie quietnes and prosperitie off the churche and that experience crieth that those are the worthiest ministers most apteste to set forthe the glorie off God muste profitableste for the church which are chosen with the consente of the people I saie if I shoulde answer thus I dowte not but all the worlde will witnes with me that I haue iuster cause thus to speake off the bishoppes elections off ministers then the A. hathe to speake so slaunderously off ciuill elections made by consent in townes and cities God be praised this cause off discipline wee mainteine hath bene and by Godes grace shal be vpholden withoute towche off any lawfull estate or forme off gouernment off commen wealth but yt appeareth that the Answ can not mainteine his cawse without open oppugninge off one off them And therfore to keepe the bishoppe in his throne downe muste goe all elections by manie and by the same reason all trialls off controuersies by manie all determinations and iudgmentes by manie and in a vvorde the whole estate almoste off our commen wealth muste bee remoued Yow acâ—e vs off confoundinge the commen wealth vvhich yow are neuer hable to proue here yow are taken in the verie acte doinge not by conclusion or implication but by a flatt and directe affirmation I dowbte not that wise men doo see yowr folie vvhich beinge so vnskilfull of the gouernment of the churche the knowledge vvherof you doo professe vvill take vpon yow as Phormio vnto Haniball to prescribe vvhat forme of gouernemente muste be vsed in the commen vvealth And if it vvere not beside my profession I coulde shewe that it agreeth moste bothe with the definition of a cytisen vvhich those gyue vvhich handell this matter and vvith the practise off the beste gouerned cities that the cytisens should haue this intereste off choise off their Maiors and Bailifes confirmed by experience off daungerous seditions and seperatioÌ„s from the coÌ„men wealth which haue happened by abridginge the people off this and suche liberties But for somuche as yt belongethe not vnto a diuine to medle with those but to contente him selfe with what forme off gouernemente soeuer so it be lawfull thowght good to those to whom the orderinge of that doothe perteine I leaue to speake of that matter But a man maye smell the D. farre off For this is put in for defence off that spoile which he and others by vntrew surmises moste vnnaturally made in the vniuersitie when to th ende the Idlenes couetousnes and ambition of certeine might be the more secure and without checke they by their longe and crooked talones seased vpon the authoritie off the Vniuersitie Senate But because he casteth so scornefully awaie those reasons vvhich are alledged by me I woulde knowe what he will answer to Maister Martyr who vseth the same reason I haue here saying that it is no meruaile that the church hath this righte to chuse her ministers seinge the ciuil lavves doo giue this povvre to incorporate tovvnes to chuse their Physicions and Scolemaisters Where he saith that the multitude is for the moste parte ignorant careles and oftentimes euill disposed and commonly led by affection hatred feare c. There is no vice which anie one off the churche is subiecte vnto but the bishopp is subiecte vnto the same Nether iâ— there any affection enemie vnto a good election wheroff the bishoppe is not liker to be ouercomed then either the whole churche or the greateste parte theroff What neede this goinge abowte the bushe I speake off the visible churche called by the preaching off the gospell not off those whose callinge is yet hydden and folded vp in Godes electioÌ„ And of those I saie not as yow for what can yow els doo vntrewly reporte that they can not erre in chusing their pastor but that they are not such ignorant dottrels as yow woulde make vs beleue aÌ„d such as haue no taste to discerne betwene good and bad holie and vnholie And this knowledge and discretion off good and euill is not onely in those whiche are effectually called but in those also vvhich haue onely the outward callinge without the spirite off sanctification and adoption off the children off god So that the pretence off suche ignorance as yow speake off can not fall into anie whiche are off the visible church off god The D. coulde not hale in the corrupte interpretation off the pope in this place to helpe to make vp his answer but he muste ascribe a notable vntrewthe vnto me that I shoulde goe abowte to proue that the churche can not erre in the election off the minister Where haue I pretended any suche thinge or what neede haue I to
which can not be nows the reason yow assigne in the fewnes in one place off the professors then and multitude now Althowghe yt be graunted that there are moe nowe in the cities then were then and that be geuen yow too that the multitude owghte to chaunge the forme off elections neither wheroff yow are hable to shewe yet yt still fallethe owte againste yow For allbeit ther be moe professors in a citie then were yt followeth not that there are moe belonginge vnto one assembly then there were thē Wherin I wil goe no further thē to the exāple of the church which yow alledge to haue chosen the deacons vvhere coulde hardly be lesse then sixe thowsande persons seing that at the second sermon of Saincte Peter there beinge fiue thowsande it is affirmed afterward that multitudes off men and weomen were added Now where shall yow haue lightly in the cities vvhich professe the gospell one onely church of so many thowsand persons cōsidering that for the greater cōmoditie of meeting and gouerning the whole masse off Christians in one citie yt is deuided into seuerall churches as it were flockes into seuerall feedinges And if yow vvoulde haue proued any thinge yow shoulde not haue considered howe the nomber off Christians are increased in their cities but howe they are encreased in their churches And so yow shoulde haue founde that by your owne reason the elections in the time off persequution owghte rather to haue bene made by one and the electiōs now by many seinge in persequuted churches for vvāte off the commoditie off diuiding them selues into proportionable assemblies the nomber beinge more the danger off tumulte and confusion muste by yowr owne sayinge be greater Yow saie yt is a verie good reason that because the churche was vnder the crosse therfore yt was few in nomber in comparison but yow answer not the auctoritie which I alledged touchinge the encrease off the children of Israell more vnder the crosse then in prosperitie The reason yow add off many hypocrites in the peace of the churche hath small force For that there are in persequuted churches manie hypocrites maie appeare by the Israelites which dred in persequution made often rebellions in the wildernes likewise by the complaintes off S. Paul that al sought their owne not Christes that al were turned from him That one example onely is hable to ouerthrowe that vvhich yow put so generally yet yowr one example off London is not hable to confirme your pourpose yt serueth yow therfore for a pinche at the citie and for no reason off yowr cawse And albeit the backslyding from the Gospell was throwgh the realme verie horrible in Queene Maries daies yet there is no cause to picke Londō owte as the worste seinge there were great nombers there which vvith hasarde off all they had and of their lyues frequented assemblies vvhere the worde off God was truly preached and the Sacramētes purely administred the like meetinges beinge rarely founde in other places no to our owne shame be yt spokē not in the vniuersitie where of moste righte they should haue beene What gaine yow by that the churche was diminished in Ierusalem seinge the decrease of one churche was the encrease off diuers other wherunto those off Ierusalē adioined them selues Therfore yow conclude not well in sainge that particular churches by persecutions are diminished because one churche off Ierusalem was so no more thē yow can saie that a man hath a vvhite head because he hathe one white heare on his head but I maie rather saie that by persequution the particular churches are encreased for somuche as Samaria and other churches were by that flight of Ierusalem partly adorned with teachers partly augmented in disciples And therby is confirmed that I haue set downe off the merueilous spawne off the churche vnder the crosse bothe becawse euerye one dryuen from Ierusalem was as good seede which browght his hundreth or fiftie folde and for that after Ierusalem was deliuered of that birthe she conceiued againe and browghtforthe as maie appeare a greater nomber then before What are my vvordes vverby I affirme that the churches in time off persecution meete often and kepe together yt is that I precisely denie Verely this is too homelie rhetoricke to affirme I saie that vvhich I manifestly denie And althowghe it be more clearer then the son̄e that a smaller nomber maie better knowe one a nother then a great those which dwell nere one to a nother then that dwell farre of and scattered those vvhich meete oftener then vvhich meete seldomer yet the A. dowbteth not to saie that the contrarie of this is a knowen trwthe Wher he alledgeth for profe the often conference and triall off euery one before they be receiued For the firste yt maie be easelie vnderstanded that seinge yt is daungerous for them to meet together godly politie doothe teache them to breake their companies as soone as they maie conueniently And therfore the publicke action ended off preaching prayinge and receiuing the Sacramentes the conference which may be and is commonly in the churches peace one vvithe another throwghe feare off the daunger vvhich maie come off being seene man it together is cut off As for the knowledge by triall off those vvhich are receiued into the churche if he knewe that yt comethe onely off the reporte off twoo or three which giue testimony off those which are to be receiued and that yt extendeth not to any vnderstanding gyuen to the churche off his giftes either of teaching or gouernment but onely that he is a faithfull man I saie if he knewe thes thinges or knowing thē woulde acknowledge them there shoulde be no cause vppon confidence off that triall to fasten such knowledge one of a nother in a churche persequuted Before I further answer the D. reason touching the change of the manners of the Christians in times off peace from that they were vnder persequution vnderstand good reader that this is the very reason off the archpapist Hosius againste the election off the church which affirmeth that there is greater grauitie and constantie in the Christians vnder persequution and therfore that this manner off election by the bishop was browght in nowe to Hosius and the D. I answer that when wickednes breaketh into open actions then they are no more Hypocrites but openly wicked and suche as owght not onely be taken heed off but without speedy amendement remoued I graunte yt is no shame to the churches to haue Hypocrites for asmuche as the iudgement off man can not discerne them and off them and none other is the parable off tares vvhich forbiddeth weeding vntill the daie off haruest and they are onely those which can not be rooted owte But to saie that beside those which are corrupt in religion yt is full off dronkardes whoremongers c. Yt is more then euer S. Paule reproched any the moste diffigured churches he wrote vnto For how manie suche persones as be founde in
booke he affirmethe precisely that the discipline is required to the substance off the church onely he denieth that vvhich the Anabaptist helde that there was no churche where there was no excommunication Likewise pa. 90. where he would make vs beleue that excommunication 19. Math is not by Maister Caluin iudgement vnderstanded off publicke offences Mai. Caluins declareth onely that those priuate admonitions doo not belonge vnto publicke offences but that those publike offenders ought to be excommunicated if they reste not in the churches Iudgement and consequently first complainned of to the churche Which are two off the Ecclesiasticall censures mentioned in that place off S. Mathew he dothe more then once or twise affirme Now leuing the D. in his threchery let vs returne if al were trwe yow alledge here as they are very vntrwe yet they helpe not For yow vvill not denie but dronkardes vvhoremongers papistes c. owghte ether to be driuen to repentance or owte off the churche which whether soeuer come to passe taketh awaie the inconuenience yow alledge againste the election off the church So that onles yow meane to nourishe them in the churche as bandogges to kepe owte this election this barre againste it is easely remoued It is appointed vnto the magistrate by the word off God that he shoulde not onelie prouide that his subiectes liue paceably one with another but also and that especially to see that they hauing the trwe knowledge of God maie serue him as he hathe prescribed This waie off gathering them to the nexte parishes seemed vnto me fitteste to be vsed in that case if yow can shewe better mine shall giue place Onely therfore I made mention of it to shewe that the impossibilitie vvhich yow so often caste in the teeth of the reformacion can haue no place if they continewe vncorrigible I haue before shewed that yt is the cōmaundemēt of God vnto the magistrate to vse cutting and burning and nether to suffer God to be dishonored in them nor the reste off his subiectes infected If they can be discerned for dogges or swine vvhich are not onely filthie in vvhich regarde I called dronkardes c. Swine but also treade the worde vnder their feete then I graunte he vvhich hath that iudgement off them assured by the testimonie of the spirite of God owghte not to teache them But this cōmeth owte of time For I made no mention off dogges and the name off swine I gaue not to the papistes but to filthie liuers and yt ouerturneth yowr pourpose for if they maie not heare the worde muche lesse can they be off the church The preuenting off an obiection is no digression vvhether yt bee friuolous the iudgement shall bee with the reader I tooke the likeliest signification off yowr worde established which is surely grounded withowte remoue and which hathe all the partes off a church nowe I see that by established yow meane allowed by the magistrate Althowghe I haue shewed before by storie that there were churches then which had maintenance of the magistrate yet as in a matter that nether hurteth me not helpeth yow I wil not striue speake of the church visible standing off good and euill of the owtwarde gouernment of the church vvhich standeth in administring off the word and Sacramentes and exercise of all partes off church discipline and that I haue shewed to haue all her partes althowghe not all her ornamentes Which I did not withowt reason annexed againste which cometh nothinge but a bare affertion and a charge off ignorance off that distinction which I my selfe did first propounde towchinge this that the cyuill magistrate is not the heade off the churche yt falleth into the questiō of the Archbishop where it shall be god willing handled That he saithe that the state off the churche was in the Apostles tyme popular by his owne iudgement which gyueth the name vnto the forme of gouernment of that parte which moste rulethe is vntrwe for the State off the beste did beare the greateste rule considering that there were matters belonginge vnto the church doone by the eldershipp wherat the people were not nor coulde not by any conuenience be present yet there was nothing in whiche the peoples Iudgement was required wherin the Eldershipp was not bothe present and president And this saying off the D. that the people in the Apostels times had to doo almoste in euery thinge is directly contrarie to that he hath before discoursed For to the Admo and me opposing the places off the Actes where thinges were doone ether by voice or consent off the church his answer hath bene that the churche had nothing to doo there but onely in the election off the Deacons and that popularitie he affirmeth to haue bene not in respecte that the church was vnder persequution as here in this place but for a speciall cause off contention then in the church Now I vvould gladly knowe of Maister D. What are those places off scripture wherby he will proue that the moste thinges in gouernment were doone by consent off the people if those places wee haūe alledged doo not proue yt That which yow ad off the conuenience that nothing shoulde be doone in the church withowte the consent and knowledge of the magistrate yowr addition taketh nothing from the consent of the churche For the magistrates consente and the churches are not at warre but one may hathe and dothe stande well vvith the other Because the recytall of a 100. differences is vnprofitable I leaue yt in the readers iudgement howe trwly and withowte bragge or figure I haue spoken But if for a 100. there were 1000. yet yowr cause shoulde be neuer the better onles yow can shewe that those differences pull with them a necessitie off change off the forme off election vvhich yow nether doo nor can That one churche shoulde admonishe another and that there are many Hypocrites vnder persequution is before shewed Off wicked ministers which had their followers and louers in the churches of God vvhich notwithstanding kepinge the profession off the gospell were in daunger off the lawes of the contreis where they dwelte is spoken off almoste throwghe all the epistles off Saint Paule yea yt maie appeare throwgh owte the whole course of the ecclesiasticall stories that many churches of Heretikes partly Arians partly Nestorians and especially of the Nouatians were persequuted and banished of heathen Emperours together vvith the catholike church of Christe And it appeareth plainly by that which hath bene of both partes alledged owte of Cypr. that certein churches abowte him did chuse vnmeet ministers Therfore Maister D. doth wounderfully forget him selfe when he saithe that yt is not lyke that the churche in persequution will chuse an vnmeete or wicked mynister or that they which suffer persequution for the gospell doo yt allwaies off conscience or off good conscience wheroff the question is And if he vvill admitte none off thes proses yet if he stand vnto his exposition off
trifling questions here albeit moste vnworthy yet are answered almoste all before And if there were a legion moe they are not onely confuted in that this manner off election by the churche confirmed by the magistrate hath bene vsed more then â—00 yeares together but also by the D. owne wordes wherby he leaueth yt in the princes pleasure so to order yt still For if there were such incoÌ„ueniences and absurdities as he imagineth how hath the practise continued so longe bene thowght good by so many good Emperours and so many learned men in all those ages Or if all they were a sleap or of so shorte sighte that they could not see thes inconueniences which the D. hath espied how commeth yt to passe that he leaueth yt in the magistrates pleasure to establishe this order encombred with suche inconueniences and absurdities For the chalenges wherby he would giue to vnderstand that I haue not faithfully alledged Musculus the firste is that I affirme that he vvente aboute to defend the election vsed vvhere he vvas by this that it approched to the election of the primatiue church which he saith is vntrue But the reason wherwith I confirme yt that Muscu saithe yt vavs made not by one minister but by al by the voices of the Senate vvhere some nomber off the people vvere He toucheth not The second that I call the choise off the minister by the churche the Apostolicall forme yet they are not my wordes but Musculus his authors vvhich calleth yt the oulde the fytteste the deuine the Apostolicall and lavvfull election Where he saith that Musculus dooth not call the other elections forced I woulde gladly knowe what difference there is betwene forced and thruste vpon For Musculus in the same tytle maketh all one a mynister thruste vppon the church and a minister which is not chosen off the church in thes wordes The forme off election vsed in the Apostles times is conformable to the libertie and priuiledge off the church vvherof Cyprian made mention and that forme off choise vvherby men began to be thrust vppon the people off Christe being not chosen off yt dooth agree to a church vvhich is not free but subiecte to bondage Hetherto yt hathe appeared that although Musc Iudgement be not wholy for vs yet the reasons vvhich he alleadgeth for this cause are suche as can not be shaken Now I will further shew that as there is some disagreement betwene ours and his Iudgement so there is further distance betwene hym and the D. First therfore he saithe that as the election by the church endured vntill the time off Christian magistrates so the election made by the church and confirmed by the christian magistrate endured vntill that time that the bishoppe off Rome hauinge wronge owte both from the Emperour and the people their right in the election tooke it all to him selfe The D. denieth this stoutly Secondarily Musculus maketh the disorders off electioÌ„s by chusinge vnmeete persons or by corruption throwghe giftes or parciall fauour to beginne then especially when the election taken from the people cam into the bishoppe of Rome and his suffragans handes The D. cleane contrary that thes disorders were especially in the elections by the people and beste auoided when the election is called to the will and becke off one bishoppe Thirdly Musc maketh yt an vnlawfull forme off election when yt is made of the prince but maister D. saith that yt is in the princes powre to make election off ministers him selfe if he will or committe yt to others iff he liste Fourthly Musc helpinge him selfe off the authoritie off Ierome saith that there was no election in poperie becawse they were made without the knowledge off the people and condemneth also the election of the bishopes made by the Canons for the same cause But M. D. saith yt is a moste conuenient and sufficient election which notwithstandinge in that poincte is all one with the election in poperie Last off all wherin lieth a great weight of this controuersie he dooth not saie simply that this forme off choise by the church is vnmeete and inconuenient for this age off he churche but that it coulde not be by and by and out of hand restored and after a litle that it could not be in al churches by and by restored Wherby he gyuethe to vnderstand that in some places yt might be forthwith restored and in other all men owght endeuour to bringe yt in againe withall coÌ„uenient speed So appeareth that although Musculus be pretended yet Pigghius and Hosius be his storers Here cometh to shewe the manner off the election off the Tigurine churche wheron the D. heareth hym selfe so much vvhich as Bullinger whom he cyteth for his author reporteth is this After he had shewed that in all lawfull ministeries off the worde there is required that with innocencie of life he shoulde be learned then chosen accordinge to the worde off God thirdly after he is chosen and presented to the church haue imposition of handes he addeth Heruppon the Tigurine church hauinge taken her leaue off the inordinate ordination off the popishe bishoppe chuseth off the learned and off the ministers off the Senators and off the councell off the 220. that is to saie off the common people vvhich out off the learnedest and honestest deacons should present certeine that are to bee made Bishoppes vnto the Senate and people Off vvhich vvhen the Senate and people haue chosen one they sende him vnto the church ouer vvhich he is set and vvith him a counseiller vvhich doth commend him vnto his church Then the cheifest off the bishoppes off that citie or other place vvhere this nevve bishop muste be maketh a Sermon and in publike praier made off the church in this behalfe layinge on his handes commendeth the church vnto him Wherin howe many thinges are fauouringe our cause and openly fighting against the D. vppon that I haue before noted of the election of the churches of Berne I leaue to be considered ALthowghe the D. as his vse is speaketh off one thinge so often and that in the same diuision and with spaces put betwene so that yt is harde to giue answer with any conuenient vnderstandinge off the reader yet I will as well as I can referre his scattered sayinges to certeine heades Wheroff the firste is that he did not meane to proue by thes places off Timothe and Titus that the election belonged vnto one man Wheruppon he chargeth me with willfull deprauinge off his answer Yt muste be therfore considered if we maie holde this wett eele by the mouthe The Adm. saithe in the primitiue church no minister vvas placed in the congregation but by consente off the people but novve that authoritie is giuen to the bishoppes handes alone the D. answereth by the place off Timothe and Titus Now this beinge a commaundement and by his iudgement both directed onely to Tim. and Tit. and to them as bishoppes yt followeth
to the differeÌ„ce I shewe to haue bene betwene your bishop and Ieromes â–ª yow tell that I took my worde onely owt off Illyricus as yow did your worde off excellinge which is vntrw For I gathered yt owt off Ieromes manifeste wordes which denieth that the bishop differeth from an elder but in ordinacion not knowing whether Illyricus hath that word or no. Nether are yow helped by the colledge election Because that ther is great difference betwene the libertie which maie be vsed in Cyuill elections and in Ecclesiasticall confirmed euen by placinge off bishops with vs whose ordeiners are not also choosers I haue shewed how the election and ordination are doone off diuers and the next diuis handleth that matter nether is there any thing in yowr manifolde questions to the contrary then all which one onely reason had bene a greate deale better Nether forget I my selfe one whit in that I alledged owt off the councells off Carthage and Toledo where the ordination is gyuen to the bishops but no worde that the election belongeth vnto them Howbeit because I see yow hauing not to answer seeke startinge holes I will not suffer yow to runne owte thether nether will I make yr any question betwene vs whether the bishop maie both chuse and ordeyne â–ª yt shall be enowgh for vs that he can not electe alone and withowt the church nor ordeine alone withowt other ministers T. C. hath many ouersyghtes because the D. doth not or will not see what he setteth downe Yow had to proue that the election belongeth to the bishoppe to conclude that yow bringe that he ordeined Therunto I answered that yt followeth not but rather the contrarie that he ordeined therfore he chose not I saide not symplye that the contrarie folowed but rather the contrary Your example of the vertues is altogether vnlyke they beinge so â—â—ncked that he that hath one hath al fowre which is not in election and ordination by your owne testimonie confessing that the election may be the peoples but not the ordination The example off the foot and hande declareth manifestly that I reasoned againste that false conclusion off yours which vppon that the bishop did ordeine woulde needes haue yt followe that he also elected Yow gett no aduantage in that the worde off election is sometimes taken for ordination and coÌ„trariwise For althowghe the wordes be confounded yet the thinges remaine still seperated And if yow thinke that the right off election is gotten to the bishop because in steed off saying the bishop ordeined yt is saide the bishop chose it foloweth that when in steed of saying the people chose yt is saide the people ordeined the people also gaine the right off ordinacion And iff yow shoulde gaine yt yet be yow neuer the nerer your pourpose vnles yow be hable to shewe that the bishop alone withowt the church did chuse or withowt the colledge off elders aÌ„d other bishops did ordeine Therfore in makinge so great accompte off this yowr hookie is greater then yowr harveste Heere be vaine quarels againste the quotacion because yt is saide the glosse vppon the Act. and not the ordinarie glosse all vvhich retourne vppon Illyricus Belyke to auoide the place vvhich saith precisely that the people owghte to chuse vvherunto the D. answereth not a word althowgh it be warranted by example off the Apostles and directly to the cause which is that the Bishoppes ordination owght not to shut owt the peothe peoples election The D. vppon the coniunction disiunctiue woulde proue Ierome falsified For that in so much as he saith if ether the people or the bishop choose thee to be of the clergy he woulde conclude that the bishope did choose withowt the people But he shoulde remember that if therby the bishoppes election be established withowt the people by the same reason the peoples election off the minister is established withowt the bishoppe If he dare not saie that then let him vnderstand that I haue faithfully followed the meaninge off Ierome and that this worde or is not alwaies a note off separation Which that it maie yet more clearly appeare I will shewe the like manner off speach off Leo the firste whose wordes are no reason suffreth that they shoulde be counted amongest the bishopes vvhich are nether chosen of the clergy nether desyred of the people nether consecrated of the Metrapolitane vvith the conprouinciall bishoppes Here althowgh the bishoppe vse a disiunctiue as if it shoulde be sufficient to haue any off thes and not all together yet yt appeareth both by the decrees off other Which foundinge them selues off those wordes haue decreed that the people owght to choose with the clergie and plainly by his wordes after that he mente they shoulde all be ioyned together For he addeth vvhen the question shall be to choose the cheife prieste whiche he called before the Bishoppe let hym be preferred vvhom the consent off the clergie and people shall require and after sheweth the reason why the peoples consent owght to be had I graunte that I tooke Musculus wordes for Ieromes yet iff that make to the pourpose I had redd the place And Ierome himselffe in an other place hath a sentence not much vnlyke For in a epistell againste the bishope off Ierusalem he reprocheth him that he dispised the laitie deacons and elders for that he coulde in one howre as himselfe boasted make a thowsande clearkes wherby appeareth the corruption which Muscu speaketh of and which is nowe vsed with vs off makinge so manie at a clappe at the bishopps pleasure onely both the people and the elders beinge neglected to haue bene in those times and yet not to haue gotten such footinge nether to haue bene so vniuersally doone but that the bishoppes which vsed that manner were therby subiecte to shamfull reproch And how cometh yt to passe that yow send Musculus here withoute all answer Which dooth bothe flatly condemne all such odinacions which are made off the bishoppe before election off the church and bringeth Ierome for his warrante referring Ierome which saith there vvas no election off mynisters at all vnto that the bishoppe did appoincte vvhome he lifted vvithowt the consente off the church As for the place yow cyte owte off that epistle yt maketh not to pourpose For it is not denied that the bishope hath to dooe in the choise off the minister but that he alone hath to doo How Cyprian is wholy oures in this cause hath bene shewed this exception also is answered onely here it is to be added that in the epistle owt of which the D. cyteth this exaÌ„ple of Aurelius yt is expressly saide that Cyp. did not chuse him reader of his owne autority but by autority of his felow ministers which were presente at that time That he saith heer aÌ„d alledgeth after owt of Gratians glosse that the peoples intereste in elections consisteth in bearinge wittnes off the good conuersation of the ministers beside that yt
that I deale not equally which barre him off that authoritie that I haue sometimes vsed my selfe ▪ he owghte to remember that a foreine testimonie and witnes off an enemie is glorious and that I hauinge vvarre in thes questions off the discipline not onely vvith him but with the Papistes mighte with commendation strike the◠thinges with their owne sworde which he hauinge herin the same cause vvhich they haue can not doo That which is gathered off Ambroses election owte off Theodorete is moste vntrwe ▪ for yt is manifeste that Ambrose was chosen by the whole church off Mylane and neuer a vvord to proue that the Byshops had the righte off election but the contrarye by the wordes and circumstances off the storie And wheras vppon the bishoppes offer vnto the Emperour to appointe one the D. woulde make the intereste of election a runninge and walkinge righte firste as the emperours gaue vnto the bishoppes thinges vvhich vvere vnmeete for them so yt was no meruaile if the bishops sometimes offred vnto the Emperours that vvhich perteined not vnto them Which may well appeare there by the answere off the good Emperour which refused yt as a thinge vvhich he had not to doo with and vnmeete for him Secondly yt is very like that for the diuersities of iudgementes vvhich vvere emongeste the people the bishoppes perceiuinge that they shoulde run into displeasure off one off the parties woulde haue bene glad to shifte off that euill will and lay yt on the Emperour which was better hable to beare it last of all they offred the Emperour that which he willed them to doo which vvhen yt was to ordeine onely as the issue declared and not to chuse the churches election can be by no meanes preiudiced in that offer off the bishops As for Chrysostomes 3. booke de Sacerdotio besyde that I doubte not but if yt had any thinge of Valewe for yow yow would alledge yt yt is the same authoritie which Hosius alledgeth and alledgeth in grosse as the D. doth againste the churches election To the D. firste reason againste the churches election vvhich standeth in that there haue bene great contentions and diuersitie off myndes amongeste the churches I answer that the Apostles vvhen there fell a contention and a iarr amongest those off the church neuer entred into any such deliberation off cuttinge awaye the churches libertie contrariwise they estemed the neareste waie to heale vppe the breach to gyue them some thinge more in that election off Deacons then was ordinarie For where they were accustomed to shew the way in other elections and by ripenes off their iudgemente helpe the weaknes off the People there they suffring the church to goe before folowed with their approbation And not onely in respecte off that election but if a man will consider the vvhole estate off the primatiue church in the Apostles time it shall appeare plainly that if there were euer good cause to take away the churches election throwgh contentions and diuersities off mindes that was in the Apostles times For the churches off God then almoste throwghowt the world standinge of Iewes and gentils and there beinge such a naturall hate betweene those two peoples as vvhatsoeuer the one woulde the other commenly vvoulde not and contrarywise if the Apostles had iudged that for reason vvhich the D. estemeth highe vvisdome they shoulde neuer haue permitted any election vnto the churches For albeit the knittinge off both those peoples into one profession off the gospell did mortefy that deadly hatred which was naturally in thē yet notwithstandinge yt appeareth by diuers places off the scripture that there vvere such remnantes off that hatred lefte that nether the Apostles them selues which were so vvise peace makers and so kunninge tiers off loue knotes nor yet the ministers and elders which had receiued the firste fruictes off the spirite off God coulde kepe them from moste daungerous contencions And Maister Zuinglius off vvhom the D. woulde seeme to receiue some succour in this cause euen when their churches were moste dangerously infected with Anabaptistry and many nourished it in wardly vvhich durste not vtter it openly teacheth that this forme off choise by the churche was to be kepte Nether is it to bee passed by that Basil noteth that one Anthimus in choosinge a bishop withowt the churches voices filled all Armenia vvith sedition Whervnto add the testimonie off Chrysostome where he askinge vvhy Peter communicated the election vvithe the Disciples answereth leste the matter shoulde be tourned into a bravvle and haue fallen to a contention When he assigneth the cause off contention cleane contrarie to the D. that the election was not communicated with the church Secondarily iff the churches elections shoulde be taken awaie because off cōtentions which happen in them Monarchies which oft haue declyned into tyrānie and bene abused to oppression off the subiectes shoulde haue had an ende long a goe and other such moste lawfull and necessarie aides off this present life owghte to be taken awaie as those which are abused And to come to ecclesiasticall affaires councelles by the D. reason owght to haue no place in the churches off Christe off which it is saide that there was neuer seen good issue of them and that throwgh merueilous ambition and desyre off contention in them thinges ovvte off order vvere not remedied but made vvorse Thirdly the examples off the contentions which the D. hath heaped vpp to gether beside that they are in parte not off the churche with yt selfe but off the church with hererickes which is her commendation as in the election off Ambrose beside that also it is noted specially that the people off Alexandria was off a Mutinous and stirring nature and therfore vniustly obiected againste the whole estate of the church beside this I saie thes examples alledged by the Answ are so farre from weakeninge the churches election that they make yt stronger For notwithstandinge those contentions had vnder bothe Christian magistrates and Bishops there was not onely no counseill taken to barre the churches off their election but were as hath bene shewed councells from time to time to ratifie yt And if the Emperours and Bishops had not thowght yt necessary that the churches shoulde haue intereste in their elections or had thowght as the D. that bothe the churches were put in hasarde of false teachers and the commenwealth off vprores by reason off popular elections yt had bene greate folie or madnes rather to haue suffred that which they mighte haue so easelie remedied Which opinion off the necessitie off the churches interest as yt hath appeared by diuers examples before alledged so maie it clearly be seene in the letters off the good Emperour Constantine to the Cytisens off Nicomedia which althowghe they had chosen to his great greife one Eusebius Bishop dooth not therfore take awaie the election from them but moueth to a newe And albeit they had abused their righte in
chusing such a one as was an Arian a runnigate from his former bishoppricke a railer of the Emperour yet he confesseth still that yt belonged vnto them to make a hewe election Fourthly what will he say to that that the people bridled the rage of the scribes and pharises againste the truth and ministers theroff in that they were a fraide off them that the Bishop off the church being an Arrian the people haue bene for the most parte Catholike That also the Emperour hath displaced the catholike bishop chosen by the church ād placed an Arian Which disorders beinge often cōmitted by the Bishops maie by the D. rule as well depriue them of their intereste in ordering and confirming as the people in chosing What also that the euill disposition off the people hath for the moste parte proceded off the mouing off their euill gouernours So that people diuers times good when the rulers were naughte hath bene seldome naughte whē their gouernours were good besides all this there are other faultes off Symonie off choise off moste dissolute and most vnlearned ministers wherwith the sole election off the bishops is so infamous and the churches election scarsly to be touched with that many contentions off the people woulde drawe les blould off the churche then the choise onely off one suche blinde and lame minister as many off the assemblies off the bishoppes for that purpose sende forthe by whole armies Laste all as in other reasons before I haue shewed that the D. defendinge the same cause which the Papistes vseth the very selfe same armour bournished by the names off Zuinglius Caluin Beza c. so here he hath the very selfe same reason which the Papistes vsed for the bishoppes sole election wherunto Caluin maketh answer For vnto the Papistes sayinge that the people were shut forthe because off the contentions and tumultes which happened often times he answereth confessing there were such motions and sturres but that the taking awaie off the churches electiō was browght in for a remedy against those sturres he affirmeth to be a plaine lie and sheweth that there were other waies to meete with those disorders as to punishe them which should moue any tumult And so goeth forward in shewinge the trewe cawse off the falling awaie off this libertie from the churche To all the reste off his reasons I haue answered before at large sauinge that he hath embossed owte this laste with a sentence off Chrysostome vpon Iohn drawen from Hosius who vseth this testimonie againste the election of the churche Where both Hosius and the Ans shoulde haue learned to haue put a difference betwene a confused multitude and the church off god For I woulde aske off Hosius howe shamles so euer he be whether he dare define the church off God which is the spouse and body off Christe to be a certeine thinge full off tumulte and sturres consistinge ad rashly compacted for the moste parte of folie c. and yet ether the answer is not afraied to saie that this is the difinition that is to saie the very nature and vnchangeable propertie of the church off God or els if he vnderstand yt of some other companie he hath saide nothinge againste the election off the church And verely I can not see howe he coulde speake more vilely of the moste disordred rowte off moste godles people then he semeth to doo off that assemblie vvhich beinge indewed with the wisdome of the moste higheste he calleth a thing consistinge off folies and which beinge the piller off trewth he lykeneth vnto waues off the sea By which symilitude the scripture setteth forthe the estate of the reprobate or at leaste off the wicked vvhich haue as yet no societie with our Sauiour Therfore to conclude seinge that the election off the churche in her ministers hath grounde owt off the worde off God both in commaundement and continuall practise both in the olde Testamente and in the newe consydering also it hath allowance off commen reason the approbacion off all times after the Apostles as longe as ther was any sinceritie in peace and perquution both by councells and Emperours decrees both by godly writers ancient and off our time and considering he hath not so much as browghte an example to the contrarie owte off any auror and if he coulde yet the same is condemned not onely by the worde off god but by continuall good harmonie off councells one in the necke of another diuers 100 yeares and forasmuch as the Ans hathe this question of election by the bishope onely commen with the Papistes and hathe had both sworde and buckler ministred him owte off the moste grosseste Papistes I conclude that both the church owghte to haue her consente in the election off her ministers and that the sole autoritie off bishops creating ministers is vnlawfull Vnto this question off election and ordination belongeth the 2. chapter of the 4. tract of ceremonies in ordeining off which the 2. Diuision beinge answered and the first and third vnworthy of answer there remaineth onely the fowrth Againste that he alledgeth that the bishop mighte as well say receiue the holy goste to the ministers made by him as to vse the wordes off the Lordes supper I replied that there was a commaundement for the one and not for the other wherunto he saith that there is no speciall commaundement Which is no answer For if the generall commaundement off kepinge that whole institution doo comprehende this beinge aparte theroff then the argument standeth That he bringeth off the minister sayinge withowt inconuenience This is my bodie and in recitall off the commaundementes thow shalte haue no other god but me is nothing worthe seinge the inconuenience is taken away by preface off God spake thes vvordes Christe tooke bread c. The place of Timothe vvith Maister Caluins expositiō is vtterly impertinent For it is not question whether God doth gyue his giftes to them which he calleth or no but vvhether he giueth them by this means of sayinge receiue c. where he saith that the Apostels when they laide on their hands likely vsed thes wordes it is vntrwe considering that Saincte Luke pursuing the leste of those ceremonies which were vsed made no mencion off it being in the D. iudgement worthiest off all other to be followed And if they had vsed yt yet yt folowed not that the bishops maie doo it considering that it was proper onely to the Apostles to giue the giftes off the holy goste by layinge on off handes Where he saith that Christe commaundinge the sea to be quiet and breathing vppon his disciples confirmed his diuinitie I answer that he did the same in commaunding to receiue the holy goste which otherwise he woulde haue praied for as at other times when he gaue testimonie off his humanitie Caluin althowgh he vse not the same example yet vseth the like when he compareth the imitation off thes wordes receiue the holy goste with those being saide
the speciall function off a Pastor The same may be saide off Beza which calleth S. Paul a Bishop with diuers other wherin writers speaking off one in passing and not off pourpose content them selues with those generall titles which notwithstanding when they inquired into the natures off them as we doo here spake otherwise which vse is also noted off Cicero And to shut vp this matter it is to be vnderstanded that there be diuers significations off thes wordes Apostles Propheres Doctors c. for in generall signification they agree vnto all ministers off the word Considering that all are sent all feed teach and by a trope are saide to prophecie Their other signification which S. Paul setteth forth is particular and agreeth onely to onely to one seuerall ministrie Obserue then how the D. hath trifled when as a part off our question being whether there be now Apostels Prophetes and Euangelistes in particular significatiō and as they differ aswell one from an other as from Pastors and Doctors he hath brought certein places where thes names be taken generally and as euery off them may be verified off all mynistries off the word as yf vpon that the Maior off the citie is called sometimes the officer sometimes the Magistrate he should conclude that he hathe three seuerall offices And where an other part off our question being whether these functions are now ordinary or extraordinary perpetuall or for some ruinous time he hath taken vpon him to proue them ordinary and perpetuall he hath alledged testimonies which confessing that some off thes ministeries haue bene found in our daies ad partly in expres wordes partly in wordes and circumstances of like valew that they were extraordinary that they are but for a time then which what can be greater mockery off his reader And so I trust yt appeareth aswell vpon the argumentes I haue vsed as vpon the shame off the D. answers that off all the mynisteries of the word reckened of S Paul there remaine onely Doctor and Pastor and that the function off Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes haue no place in the church onles the lord immediatly styr them vp withowt the ordinary calling by men Off the necessarie residence of the Pastor 4. Tractat. 5. according to the D. Cap. 1. Diuis 1. pag. 235. THe D. to deliuer the Non residents from the crime he ys charged with flieth from the iudgement off the word off God vnto his owne conscience so that yf he and his conscience although astonished or blindled can agree off some easier way thē is debated all mouthes are shut vp to speake against him And pa. 238. he saith that preaching and priuate exhortations must be according to the conscience and discretion off the Pastor which is too shamefull a saying In stead wheroff if he had put a good conscience which will admit no persuasion but out off the word off God he had openly begged that in question The lord knew too well the vnreformed corners and false doores of the best cōscicēces to cōmit his church which he loued so dearly vnto their courteousie When Saint Paul cōfesseth that he was not as towching his ministrie iustified albeit his conscience cast him not in the teeth of any thing he had doon he declareth that the conscience is no sufficent rule to direct the minister in his charge ▪ Yet his was more Chryst allike then is to be hoped after off any now and when he saith that all the worckes off a good minister are taught out off the scripture inspired off God he incloseth the Pastor within streighter boundes then the Answ which leaueth him in the large field or wildernes rather sometime off his conscience sometime of the peoples pleasure That which he bringeth off the examples off the Apostels and Euangelistes is absurd considering that both the callinges are diuers and euen in the very point whereoff the question is towching the place yt is confessed of him that the Pastor hath one certein appointed him to exercise his charge which the other haue not Off this sorte is that he alledgeth after off sonas the Prophet whose mynistery was altogether extraordinary towardes the Nineuites Whiche yf yt proue any thinge yt proueth that the pastor after he hathe once laide open the synnes off his flocke and denounced the iudgement against them may goe his waies withowt ether deputy or returne Likewise that off S. Paul Act 20. free from the Ephes bloud becawse he had declared them the whole counsail off God. Which is first impertinent considering that the pastors teaching at his charge is not to be compared with the Apostels teaching at one church but at all the churches of his Apostelship Then yt ys apparantly againste him considering that the Apostle which cleareth him selfe off their bloude doth nowithstanding all the knowledge they had charge the pastors with watche and warde ouer them as those which should answer for them So that onles S. Paules diligence had bene poursued in feeding them which were alredy so well fed not the people onely but the pastors also should haue perished And euen the extraordinary callinges are so far from strenghthening thes startinges a side from appointed charges that they help to binde them more streitly to them ▪ for they had not onely a generall calling to execute their function but withall speciall direction vnto the persons and places vnto which the Lord would haue their ministrie to apperteine for when those off Nazareth thought muche that our Sau. Christ healed in other cyties off Galile and not in theirs where he was brought vp he alledgeth the calling off God which sent him to doo miracles in other places rather then there and sheweth the cawse why Elias rather relieued the extreme famin and Elizeus cured the leprosie of straungers then of their owne countrey for that they were sent vnto them Also desired to tary in a place he saide it was not at his libertie to tary but that he muste preach to other cyties alledging this reason that he was sent off his father so to doo Considering therefore that they had not onely generall callinges to doo their duties but also where and to whom muche more in the callinges which are ordinary and certein it owght to be obserued that men haue not onely callinges to preach but direction vnto the place and parties to whom they should preach Which because yt is not now without calling of the church yt followeth there can be none such That he addeth if he haue care off them is altogether from the cawse considering that the pastors care is but one part of his duty and may be taken off one neuer present Likewise that of his sufficient deputy beside that yt cometh after to be spoken of if the absence he phansieth be vnlawfull the deputy for yt ys idly mentioned I alledged that the Euangelistes and Apostles taried more in one place then in an other Which may be easely vnderstanded
not onely in that S Paul preached somewhere yeares other where moneths in some places weeks in other not all but in that by certein vocation S. Peter c. were more bound to the places where the Iewes then where the Gentils were and Saint Paul and Barnabas had in their generall charge a more streight bond to preach vnto the Gentils then to the Iewes And albeit the Euangelistes he imagineth are let so lose that they may preach through the realm yet euen in that scope he leueth them they haue a neerer knot and further dutie off preaching in places of their natiuitie abode of freinds aÌ„d kinsfolk Therfore if the residence off a Pastor be no more then the D. plainly setteth downe that he ought to doo it especially in that place and more in that then in others the difference betwene a Pastor and them towching the bond to a place graunted also off the Answ is cleane taken away Burhe will not answer the former reason because it cometh owt off place Where forsomuch as preaching in other places is alledged to be one off the cheif cawses off non residence all men see that this arrow was shot at the heart off his cause And yf yt had no place here why did not he cary yt to the proper place how cometh it to passe that he answereth yt not els where But how vaine this excuse is it appeareth seing eueÌ„ in this diuision to proue that the Pastors may preach in other places then in their charges which is that he refuseth to speake off as impertinent he alledgeth the example of the Apostels and Euangelists and so continueth almost a whole side off repetitions Likewise to that alledged that Timothe and Tite cam not from Ephesus and Crete off their ovvne heades but called off the Apostle a cheiff gouernour off the church vvhich can be no vvarrant to those vvhich leue their charges vvithout any such calling he answereth not That which is saide off the D. that S Paul sent for Timothe for his owne priuate busines is vntrue nether hath any grownd off the word And if he thinck that those wordes help him that Timothe should bring Marck as one profitable to serue him they rather confute him for yt is absurd to imagin that S. Paul would take twoo such notable lightes from the seruice off the church to serue his priuate busines and to doo that which mâ—ght be doon by others which had no publike charge in the church especially considering that he had Luke with him before Therfore that seruice must be expounded of the seruice off the gospell whereunto he would employ them Whereas I alledged for residence against those which leauing their proper charges wander in other places that they should not attempt any thing in the ministerie vvithout calling the Ans saith a man is not so called to one place that he is restrained from doing good in other which is not the question For it is not denied but he may doo good by praier counseill and writing After be saith that he constantly belieueth that in the moe places he laboureth the more his seruice is accepted vnto God and p. 241. that he is a meÌ„ber and minister off the whole church generally and pag. 224. wheresoeuer the preacher may doo most good thyther he is called of God. Wherein beside the miracle off making Apostles he bringeth in other wonders which the Lord him selff neuer wrought which is to chaunge a Pastor into an Apostle And beside that it is directly against the order off the scripture which calleth them bishops off such and such a particular church and not off the whole church against the Canons off the ould Councels which forbad the bishops to goe beyond their owne boundes and assigneth that cause off appointing Patriarchs yt is against that him self hath set downe where putting differeÌ„ce betwene pastors bishops aÌ„d other preachers he saith that Pastors and bishops haue their cures limited Whereuppon foloweth that if they goe to other places they both passe their limits and destroy the difference assigned off the Answ between them and other licenced preachers Yea if he be minister off the whole church he hath a necessary calling to preach in as many places as he can possibly as he which otherwise shal be gilty off their bloud ouer whom hauing a mynistry he hath doone no duty But forasmuch as the Pastor hath his calling vnto one certein place onely yt must needes be that he goyng to other churches off his owne head goeth withowt calling Onles he will here flie vnto secret persuasions off the spirit off God without the voice off the church which is mere Anabaptisticall And where he saith that God calleth him to that place where he may doo moste good first he doth presumpteously that taketh vpon him to determin where he may doo moste good and that which controlment off the churches iudgement which placing hym in a certein church thereby gyueth her sentence that he might doo moste good there Then I answer that although he could know where he might doo most good yet that is no sufficient calling off god For the lord calleth sometime his ministers vnto places where they gaine least and sendeth none to those where after preaching would folow repentance as appeareth by that our Sauiour Christ speaketh off Corazim and Bethsaida compared with Tyre and Sydon off Capernaum compared with Sodom and by that the Lord saith to Ezechiel off the Iewes compared with the Gentils And our Sau. Christ which knew where he might do moste good and best fill his hand off the Lordes corne folowing the calling off God his father euen in the land off Iury where his charge was preached more in certein stoncharted townes then in those which were better affectioned to his doctrine Which may appeare both by Ierusalem and the exaÌ„ples before recited and especially in Capernaum In which for that he preached so often and wrought so many miracles yt is in an other place called his owne cyty Now if our Sau. Christ preached no where but by the calling off God his father and yet few in places more aboundantly where he knew he should haue a thinner haruest yt foloweth that yt ys both vntrue which the Answ saith that God calleth a man to preach where he may doo most good and true that the lawfull voyce of the church being the same to the Mynisters now which the holy spirit off God was in those extraordinary callinges owght to goe before euery one in his mynistry not onely for direction off hym to preach but also for the place where Whereuppon foloweth that he which being placed in one church leapeth into an other without an other calling off the church runneth or euer he be sent So that althowgh the Pastor had neuer so harty a desyre to profyt in his wandring from place to place yet hauing no calling there is no obedience and therefore if in casting his net
about An. 266. had no authoritie but was a poore Bishop vnder persequnting Emperours And if the Emperours had been Christian then as they were heathen yet how cometh yt to passe he doth not vnderstand that in going about to make men belieue that the Bishop off Rome at that tyme had authoritye to limite dioceses parishes c. in the church off God he setteth vpp a Pope and armeth him with that authoritie which he neuer came vnto foure hundreth yeares after Finally if this Monke were off any credite he is directly against him euen in this cawse For off the wordes before alledged yt is cleare that he appointed vnto euery elder a seuerall parish vvherin he should keepe him selfe which is against the pluralitie off benefices that he so greatly striueth for He asketh where it appeareth that the scripture deuided nationall churches into congregations and parishes I answer that off that the scripture willeth elders to be chosen for euery competent congregation and particular bodie off church and also that thes assemblies as all other thinges in the church should be with the greatest conuenience so that as Ierusalem had commendation in hauing her building knit closely together euen so the church as much as may be conueniently should haue her partes not onely in a spirituall bond off charitie but in neighbourhood of dwellinges well trussed one with an other yt is apparant that although the scriture doth not mention parishes nor precisely define off the compasse yet yt giueth the rule wherby they are squared owt For when a parish well bounded is nothing els but a nomber of those families which dwelling neere together may haue a commodious resort and the assemblies off the churches owght so to be ranged as they may be neerest the place off their spirituall refection yt followeth that the scripture hathe after a sort gyuen the churches tarriers and that a parish well bounded for the spirituall intercommuning hath testimonie owt off the word off God. Where he asketh proofe off this that dioces is taken for a parish yt appeareth first that in the primitiue church bishops in steed that they are now off such a dioces were then of a parish afterward when they began to hooke into their possession moe churches then they were able to feed they were called bishoppes off dioceses ▪ yet the name parish was not quite worne owt but indifferently vsed for a dioces as appeareth by the councell of Ancyran where one translation hauing dioces thother hath parish And yt shall better appear in the 8. Tract that at the first there were dioceses off so narrow compas that diuers parishes in England may appear to be off greater circuit then they That the place off buriall mentioned off Euseb wat in the field may as I saied be gathered off the vse off the church which I haue noted in an other place That the churches of Christ had nether thē nor in the time that the D. imagineth any churchyardes ys manifest considering that then the temples wherunto the churchyardes were annexed were possessed off idolaters The answer to the incommodities off buriall in churchiardes that by that reason churches and other thinges must necessarily be remoued is a begging off that in question and otherwise insufficient For yt is in demaund wether it be conuenient and if it had been yet being not necessary it owght for such abuses to be taken away And beside the incommodities assigned it was as may appeare taken of the Papistes from the superstition off the heathen For Lycurgus made this law that men should burye in cyties and round about the temples Now residence being necessary and that principally for preaching off the word it appeareth how disordered a power yt is off the bishop off whose licence the pastor both chosen and ordeined must depend in a thing precisely commaunded to him by the Lord and for omitting wherof the thunderbolt of Gods course is from heauē throwen vpon him Therfore the chapter intitled Off licences to preach shall be heere in a word or two dispatched First the D. charged with false dealing in that he surmiseth of the Ad. as if one might preach withowt their approbation to whom yt apperteineth answereth their meaning is plaine belike he hath it by reuelation for in their wordes there is not a title sounding thar waies But he saith yt was their owne case which put from preaching would haue preached against the bishops will. Where leauing that to those that may haue knowledge therof I answer that he towcheth not the matter For both they speake ād my reply was of those which ordeined to preach the gospell are sent to their charges not able to doo their duties withowt further licence as if a man charged to doo a thing should be bound hand and foot of him that charged hym and layed at his mercy whether he wil lose him Wherunto he answeretth not a word Thirdly he laieth to my charge that I had not answered towching that the Adm. would haue preached against the bishops will a word wheroff is not found but onely in his latter book then which what greater dotage can there be as yf there could be default off answer whera there was no such thing obiected In that I saied vvithovvt their approbation to vvhom yt apperteineth he excepteth that there is an equiuocation yt being not set downe by whom the election should be made Where beside that yt was apparant before by a whole treatise what we think in that behalf and owt of place to speake off it heere his exception is too childish For to whomsoeuer thelection doth appertein this case remaineth the same whether it be vnlawfull to ordein one to preach the word and yet to keepe it still in his power whether he shall doo yt or no. Off this sort is that he saith I suppose no man may preach which hath not certein charge and onely in yt Wheroff although I make not heere one word off mention yet howsoeuer yt be taken this case remaineth one Where I shewed that the bishop could not alledge for defense that he vvhom he sendeth prisoner to his church is ether heritik or schismatick or suspected for that he ovvght not then to haue admitted hym vnto that ministery he vseth open falsehood For he saith I suppose that hypocrites schismatikes c. may be knowē forthwith or suspected may be by and by remoued Wheras first I haue not a word off Hypocrites and haue before manifestly tawght the contrary off that he heere forgeth that the church can not procede against Hypocrites that is those whose sinnes are not discouered and that God onely hath reserued their iudgement vnto him self Then where I shewe that those which are to be admitted to the ministery owgt to be free from suspicion off heresy or schisme the D. answereth as if I had saied that those which haue already bene in the ministery were vpon suspicion off heresy to be desposed Which what
God could not cheare him vp againe by preaching wherunto they are as fit as an oxe to flie Witnes the D. him selfe which addeth that our ignorant ministers may by study so profit in knowledge that they may be able priuately to exhort Where yt is merueilons to see how he fometh owt their shame whom he hath taken to his defense Yf he had saied that in time with study they might be able to preach yet forsomuche as while that grasse groweth the people perish his answer had bene vntollerable Now gyuing no further hope then that in time they will be able priuately to admonish which euery Christian owght to doo he hath gyuen sentence off them that they will neuer be able to doo the worcke off Pastors wheroff they beare the name that is that they will neuer be but idoles What they doo by reading is after to be seen The place of Osea which resecteth from the ministery those that haue not knâ—â—â—â—â—ge off the lawe becawse it failed a litle in the quotation he hath let quietly goe by Where he gyueth me the lie for that I ascribe vnto him this argument there must be reading in the church therfore ministers that can doo nothing but reade his wordes be thes I see not how yow can condemne reading ministers seing reading is necessary in the church let the reader iudge what a hard forehead he hath Where I concluded theruppon that euery one vvhich coulde breake bread distribute the cup c. should be a meet minister all see that it followeth vpon the former reason And this which the D. counteth a iest he is not able to answer in his greatest earnest His answer to the place off S. Iames is friuolous For his reason why the place off â— Luke commaunding the 12. disciples to preach can not be applied vnto our Ministers is for that other thinges ioyned with yt were temporall And this is his reason before that the example off the Apostels elections is to be followed wholy or not at all Therfore the place off S. Iames did fully confute his answer considering that the anointing of the sick coupled with praier by the elders off the church being temporall thother notwithstanding is perpetuall And this shift that that place was spoken off all ministers and thother off S Luke off the 12. onely will not couer his shame For what wil he say vnto the rules gyuen as the same tyme that they should be symple in their ministery as doues vvise as serpentes take heed off men are they not spoken to the ministers now becawse they were spoken then to the 12. onely What vnto that our Sauiour Christ commaunded to goe into all the world teaching and baptizing in the name off the Father Sonne and Holy Ghost which place shaketh hym owt of both his ragges for that was spoken to the eleuen Apostels onely and the coÌ„maundement off going into all the world was temporall Yet I thincke he dare not deny but the commaundement off baptizing in the name off Father Sonne and holy Ghost is perpetuall and belonging vnto all Pastors Wheruppon followeth that the place off S. Luke standeth still to whip owt vnpreaching Pastors In the pag. 483. this is handled againe Where I alledge that they be vnchangeable lavves 〈◊〉 God that he should not be minister off the church vvhich can not teach nor Minister Sacramentes vvhich can not preach the D. leauing the first which was the very cause shppeth to the second which is handled in an other Tract as that wherin his prouision was better Howbeit because I would not the D. cause should leese her aduantage by his ouersight I confesse that Chrysostomes testimonie may seeme to perteine to the cause in hand forasmuch as he maketh a kinde off preisthood not able to teach To whom with this exception that I will not be pressed with his autoritie further then he bringeth reason off the word off God I answer that as the word preisthood is often times in ecclesiasticall writers taken for the pastor and cheif minister off the church off which our present question is so sometime yt is taken for the elders ioined as helpers in gouernement vnto the pastor and whiche had not as shall appeare to doo doythe the preaching off the word and administration off the Sacramentes As when yt is saied that the Bishop chosen by Gods ordinance and the Elders ioyned vvith hym in the priestly honour According vnto which sense Chrysostomes saying maketh nothing to this question For we deny not but that he may be an elder and coÌ„sequently as they terme him a preist assistant to the pastor which is not able to preach but that he may be the pastor we vtterly deny So remaineth onely against vs in Chrysost testimonie that he may baptize that can not preach which with the rest perteining to that head shal god willing be in their proper place answered As for the 5. 1. Tim. towching the Elders which rule well in the treatise off the Presbytery yt shall appeare that it is not vnderstanded off these caterpillers where he requireth warrant off the word of God for that I confesse the church may appoint for a reader onely some graue man he confessing yt lawfull as well as I for answer to his request I refer him to that disputation where I haue proued that it is not lawfull to place any thing in the church not iustified by the word That the cavvse off this fevvnes off able ministers is partly the thrusting ovvt off those vvhich are fyt to teach partly that others fyt are not sought after it is manifest Whether they owght to be sought after and not to offer them selues I leaue to be estemed off that which is written in this point in the booke intituled off the discipline c. Whether they be off right thrust owt I leaue to be iudged off the discours off these controuersies whether they which are not yet entred haue iust cawse to forbeare I leaue to be considered off the disputation before and off that of the Archebishop Archedeacons Commissaries c. which followeth For if it fall owt that the calling be vnlawfull wherby the entrance should be made and the autoritie of the church tirantes such that being entred one can not walke in the way off his ministery prescribed off the lord then it must followe that although those that are entred hauing testimony off their conscience that they serue the lorde and keping themselues from the pollutions may poursue their course yet thes can not withowt shipwracke off conscience I speake off ordinary callinges euen in the very port or euer they launche forth commit them selues to this viage Where he saith there want no prouokinges to drawe them to the mynistery euen that is an other cawse off this scarcety for the church-liuinges so vnequally deuided that some fewe being druncken the moste hunger discourage from that study For the parent which followeth the sente off
signification should be followed for part of the writers of canonicall bookes as of Iosue Iudges Sam. Chron. Kinges c. are vnknowen To that wherin the booke is charged for lifting vp of diuers cha of the Apocrypha to be red as extra ordinary lessons vppon feast daies vvherin there are greatest assemblies some chap. off canonicall scripture being not red at all he answereth not a word but leaueth it to speake for it self Seing then the scripture precisely forbiddeth to ordeine a pastor not fit to teach and bare reading off homilies is conuenient off holy scriptures insufficient to saue the people by which are the cruches wherewith the D. would vphould this lame ministery it followeth together with the shamefull absurdities off reading to be preaching to be as good yea better then preaching that vnpreaching pastors as the pestilence off the church owght to be throwen owt Now I retourne backe to the 7. Tract off Ministers apparell wherunto albeit I was determined as may appeare to reply yet considering after that this cawse hath bene so fully debated both by bookes in print and other treatises written in the handes of as many as desire after them considering also that the D. second answer beside false accusations as that men haue learned off me and my parteners to esteme the surplis c. corrupt in them selues c. open facing downe off thinges in knowledge off all men as that none are hindred one iot from comming to the gospell by prescript apparell bare affirmacions withowt proofe as that no minister making conscience off wearing thapparell will rather weare it moued by example off other then by the law which commaundeth it almost continuall reasoning not to the matter which he cowardly dissembleth as that Prophetes which were extraordinary ministers had an extraordinary apparell which is not denied which traine taken at the beginning is followed to the end triumphes in his owne shame â—â— appeareth in the place off Salomons Ecclesiastes I say beside thes considering that he hath almost nothing at all not before answered and that he hath not fetched from any treasury off good learning but as taken vp by the highe way sideâ— and considering that we haue this question with very few him the Papistes or those which haue already cast an eye vnto the papistes onely excepted with whom to trauaill in this point before their other gale be purged were to heale the skinne and leaue the bones still broken all thes things considered with that that it may better appeare we take not these thinges for the greatest matter we coÌ„plaine of I thowght good to tread this treatise vnder my foot and to saue some good howres which might be lost in vnripping this beggery That I saie off hauing this question with very few him c. excepted I meane in that where he saith the surplis square cap and tippet be most conuenient decent and comely others in whom there is any loue off the truth confesse it a weed vnmeet for a minister of the gospell which not able to root owt they are for certeine causes content to beare with And althowgh destitute off answer he plie his matter with accusatioÌ„s of disobedieÌ„ce and conteÌ„pt of magistrate yet I doubt not but with all indifferent our open and simple profession off the necessitie off higher powers and off the honour and humble submission to Her Maiestie and all magistrates vnderneth her ether in doing thinges commaunded or patiently suffring for that which we can not with good conscieÌ„ce doo shall be sufficient defense especially seing that euen in this matter off apparell it is confessed that obedience owght to be giuen where the commaundement is with iniury to the ministery As for the D. ether error or flattery that in thinges indifferent commaunded by the Magistrate we owght not to haue such regard to the offense off the weake but that if all should be offended that is to say perish and make shipwracke off conscience for that is the offense which S. Paul and we after him speake off yet we owght to doo that which is commaunded the Magistrate being therby lifted aboue the Lord we vtterly condemne Considering it being a flat commaundement off the holy gost that we absteine from thinges in their owne nature indifferent if the weake brother should be offended no autoritie ether off church or commen wealth can make yt voide And where the magistrates commaunding and owr obedience vnto him owght to be squared owt first by the loue off God then off men our brethren especially this new carpenter as one that frameth his squire according to his tymber and not his timber according to the squire will make our obedience to the cyuill Magistrate the rule off the loue off God and our brethren So that in steed that he should teach that we may obey no further vnto the magistrate then the same wil agree with the glory off God and saluation off our brethren he teacheth that in thinges off their owne nature indifferent we must haue no further regard nether to saluacion off our bethren nor to the glory off God which in neglect of their saluacion is troden vnder food then will agree with doing that the magistrate commaundeth But I am gone further then I thowght seing there caÌ„ hardly be any so symple which perceiueth not easely both the fondnes and absurdity off his answers in this question The replie to the D. 8. Tract off Archbishopes and Bishopes Vnto the firste and seconde diuision being beside the question I answer nothing Before I come to the thirde forsomuche as the place off the Euangelistes which is before is generall and striketh at all the loftie and swelling titles off the ministrie I will set it here downe in the foreward off the reasons browghte againste the names off Archbishopes c. as that which speaking againste all the smoky names muste nedes comprehende thes In the D. answer therfore wherby he goeth aboute to proue that thes wordes gratious or bountifull Lordes make nothing againste the great names and magnifical titles off the ministers this is the firste that Saint Marke and Muthewe haue no wordes bearing any suche sense Wherunto I answer that as yt is a generall rule almoste throwghowte the scripture that repetitions are not withowt some vsury and increase so in the writinges of the EuaÌ„gelistes yt is to be obserued almost euery where And therfore yt owghte not to haue bene strange if other Euangelistes speaking off the autoritie onely S. Luke added also touching the titles Secondly he answereth this clawse yt shall not be so vvith yovv is not referred vnto those wordes are called bountifull and benefyciall but vnto ambition and tyraÌ„nical dominioÌ„ onely wherunto I answer firste that forsomuch as the things there affirmed of the Ministers and the worde off gracious Lordes is as well affirmed off kinges as the worde off bearinge dominion therfore those wordes yt shall not be so
cōmen wealthes and in the superiority which he hath ouer kinges and iudges he hath no superior but immediate autoritie vvith his father Therfore the mouldinge vpp off the two estates and gouernementes together is to lay the foundations off many errors Last of all admitting this distinctiō how cometh yt to passe that this poincte of his that there are manie archbishops in the owtward regiment off the church being that which is denied is lefte vvithowt any assistance off reason out off the scripture Here remaineth onely to proue the title Head off the church to belonge onely to our Sauiour Christe I muste therfore desyre the reader to tourne vnto the 6. diuis pag. 181. where the D. confesseth as much as I that Christe is onely the head of the church If Christe be onely head then that I set downe that the cyuill magistrate is head of the cōmonwealthe and not of the church standeth But if the magistrate be head off the church then Christe is not onelie Howbeit hauing for feare off the owtcry off all made a litle curtesie vnto the truthe he forth with lifteth vp his heele againste it and will haue the ciuill magistrate head also off the church wherupon muste followe infynite absurdities firste the doctrine off the Apostle is by this means cleane ouerthrowē which sheweth that this tytle Head of the church was gyuen to our Sau. Christe to lifte him aboue all powres rules and domyons ether in heauen or earth Where if this title belonge also vnto the cyuill magistrate then yt ys manifeste that there is a powre in earth vvherunto our Sauiour Christe is not in this pointe superior And by the same reason that he maie gyue the cyuill magistrate this title he maye gyue him also that he ys the fyrste begotten of all creatures the fyrste begotten off the dead yea the redemer of his people which he gouerneth For these all are a like gyuen vnto hym as dignities wherby he ys lyfted vp aboue all creatures And beside that the whole argumente off the Apostle in both places lead to shewe that this tytle Head off the church can not be saide of any creature yt ys confirmed by the demonstratiue article wherwith the Hebrewes esyecially whom Saint Paul folowed vse to tie that vvhich is verified off one vnto hym selfe alone For he saith he is the head as if he should saie he and none other is the heade of the church Againe if the church be the bodie of Christe ād of the cyuill magistrate yt shall haue two heades which being monsterous is to the great dishonor off Christe and his church So also shoulde come to passe that the church hauing the magistrate for head is accōplished and made a perfecte man without Christe so that the knittinge of our Sauiour Christe should not be an accomplishmente off that which lacked but an addition off that which is to much And if the churche be planted in a popular estate then forsomuch as all gouerne in commen and all haue autoritie all shall be head there and no body at all vvhich is another monster Now yf vve consider the cawses why our Sauiour Christe ys called the head of his church which are that as the head is the higheste parte in a man aboue which ther is none allwaies ioyned with the body so he ys the cheifest and highest in his churche inseperably knitte with yt and that as the head gyueth sense and mouing vnto all the bodye so he quickneth and to gether with vnderstanding of heauenly thinges gyueth strenght to walke therin I say when thes be the causes yt ys manifeste thes thinges nor no one off them ether agreing or hauing any possibilitie to agree with any creature in heauen or earth ether towards the whole church or towardes any partycular assembly that the name off the Head of the church can not be without great violence gyuen vnto any symple creature And yff yt be saied that the cyuill magistrate is a subordinate and mynisteriall head off the church as the magistrate beinge head off the commen wealthe hath other which maye be called vnder heades beneath hym he muste vnderstand that those heades are appoincted becawse the cheife magistrate can not be presente with the whole body off his people nor in his owne person performe the office of a head vnto them all But forasmuche as Christe is neuer seuered from his body nor from any parte off yt and is able and doth performe that wherfore he is called head vnto all his churche yt owghte not to seme strange that there may be a subordinate head in the commen wealth where there can be none in the church And as yt hath certaine grounde in the scripture that this tytle of head of the church is to highe to be gyuen vnto any man so hath yt bene confirmed from time to tyme by writers both olde and newe which haue had the honor off Christe in any conuenient estimation Let vs therfore see vvhether this ialousie ouer the title of head of the church not onely in respecte off the whole but in respecte also off a particular congregation haue their approbation Cyprian saith there is but one head off the church The bishop off Salsburie affirmeth the same Augustine proueth that the minister which baptiseth can not be the head off him which is baptized because Christe is the head off the vvhole church And in another place that Paule coulde not be head of the churches which he planted becawse Christe is head off the vvhole body which reason should be nothing worthe if ether Saint Paule or any other minister mighte be a ministery all head off the church vnder Christe And if the name of ministeriall head off the churches which Paule planted can not be gyuen vnto him which was a gouernour nexte and immediatly vnder Christe in that same kinde off gouernment in the which our Sauiour Christe is head that is to say spirituall no not then when there was no Christian magistrate to make chalenge vnto that title and to bring yt into dowbte whether yt belonged vnto S. Paule or to him yt can not be that the magistrate may take vnto him that title whose gouernmente doth not approche so nere vnto our Sauiour Christes as he is head off the church And as they haue taken awaye this tytle from the ministers ouer their flockes so haue they from Emperours and princes in regard off their subiectes Ambrose saith yt ys the greatest honor the Emperour can haue to be called sonne off the church and in the same Epistle a good Emperour is vvithin not aboue the chutch Caluin teacheth that there is but one onely head of the church vvhich is Christe that the name doth onely agree to him that in that name he can haue no substitute vpon earth Where yf yt be saide that he mente that off the Pope ouer all churches althowgh the disputation be directed againste the Pope yet his reasons are
conceiued off an opinion they had that those tvvo vvere not vvorthy to rule ouer them The vvordes off our Sauiour Christ in the 20. of S. Math. c. are spoken vnto the 12. onely vvhom he had set apart for the ministerie off the gospell but his vvordes S. Math. 23. are spoken not onely vnto them but vnto the commen people Wheruppon it followeth that our Sauiour ioining the people vvith his disciples in the dehortations vvhich he maketh here could not as in the other place vvhere he speaketh vnto them alone speake off the proper listes and boundes of the ministerie and therfore there is no cause vvhy M. shoulde be glad that I agree with hym in the exposition off Math. 23. Further Math. 20. making comparison betwene the 12. disciples and Princes here so far as towcheth the disciples he maketh comparison betwene them and other ecclesiasticall ministers There being therfore thinges in the state off a commendable Prince vvhich agree not vnto the ministery of the gospell it followeth that he may be well thowght there not onely to haue forbidden the disciples ambition damnable in bothe estates but also those thinges which being commendable in Princes agree not vnto them Off the other side all thinges coÌ„mendable in the Pharises ministrie Ecclesiasticall agreing likewise to theirs it followeth of necessitie that there he must needes speake against ambition onely Vnto the next diuis being reproches I answer not onely vvhere he chargeth me vvith falsehood becawse I affirme he saith the booke off commen praier is a perfect rule to gouerne the churche off England by where nothing is wanting or to much I answer that there be not the same wordes but when there is nothing he will acknowledge to be off the order of the booke which he mainteineth not and refuseth to haue added thinges vvhich haue their ground off the word I leaue to the reader to iudge whether although my wordes are vvith the fullest yet I am far from his meaning Now I returne againe to his 8 Tract The Ans skoffing vppon my vnskilfulnes in logicke saith he can finde nether head nor foot in my reason Thus I will finde both They which deny the lawfulnes of Iohns ministrie because there was no suche ministerie conteined in the scriptures thowght no ministerie lawfull not conteined in them but the Scribes and Leuites did so therfore they esteemed no ministerie lawfull not conteined in scripture Against this he taketh exception first to the translation which is altogether friuolus for beside that both the wordes may beare that signikication and it is not vnlike but by the article the Euangelist ment not some one singular Prophet spoken of in the law beside the Messias but rather any Prophet extraordinary to vvhom the Lord shewed him self ether by vision or dreame the interpretation vvhich he citeth owt of Beza altereth not the argument but rather strenghtheneth it noting therby that it vvas necessary not onely to haue the function off a Prophet but off one which vvas especially noted and marked owt by the scripture SecoÌ„dly where he saith that if they had asked Iohn whether he had bene a Prophet he would not haue denied it and addeth for proofe theroff our Sauiour Christ saied he was one he is abused for our Sauiour saying that he vvas greater then a prophet and that the Prophetes endured vntill Iohns comming denieth that he vvas a Prophet and maketh his ministerie a meane function betwene the function of a Prophet and ministerie off the gospell more excellent then the first and inferior to the other If he vvould haue had a coulor off his defense he should rather haue cited his fathers saying of him which calleth him the Prophet of the highest but that could not haue serued the turne nether For that the vvorde is there taken generally for those which teach the will off God which is often as hath bene shewed Yowr third exception that all the functions are not reckened vpp becawse they aske him not whether he was a Priest or Leuite is as vaine as the rest for therfore they aske him not becawse he tawght not being consecrated vnto any of them according to the ecclesiasticall order prouided in that behalf and that vvas one occasion off this embassadge vnto Iohn Last off all where in the margent he saith that the Pharises made false argumentes and that I doo the same he speaketh vnaduisedly for howsoeuer there was otherwise great ignorance in them yet that their reason vvas good herin it appeareth by that S. Iohn to proue his ministerie lawfull browght testimonie theroff owt off the scripture and for that our Sauiour Christ meaning to confirme the ministerie off Iohn asketh whether it were from heauen or off men In vvhich wordes condemning all ministeries vvhich men institute and that come not from heauen he confirmeth the Parises argument vvhich vvas that Iohn exercising a mynisterie not ordeined by the law should haue bene gilty of breach of the law if he could not haue shewed some extraordinarie vocatioÌ„ Thus appeareth that there vvas both bead and foot in this argumeÌ„t and that by all likelyhood true vvhich he could not impugne but by vntruth The 8. and 9. diuis vvhich follow haue as commonly the rest nothing but bare sayinges which becawse I shall meet withall againe I vvill heere passe ouer â–ª onely in the eight yt ys to be noted that he saith it is seruile to tie the church off Christ to the patrone off the Iewes Synagoge Wherin ether he saith nothing or he would haue vnderstanded more then he dare veter For if he meane that the church of Christ may not be in all ordinances and ceremonies coÌ„formable to that off the Iewes it maketh nothing to the pourpose but if he meane that the church hath now more libertie in adding ministeries then the Iewes had as his answer to that I set downe doth require then I see no cawse vvhy he should not haue so saied But that although he would say yet he durst not and therfore spaâ—â— thus vncertenly that vvheÌ„ I should shew the coÌ„trary he in this generall speach might haue some corner to hide him in Seing I must needes proue that the crow is blacke that is to say tharchbishoprick a new ministerie thus yt is proued That which hath diuers efficient cawses is an other and diuers but there are diuers efficient cawses off the ministerie off tharchbishop and those expressed in the word off god That there are diuers efficient cawses is manifest for that the office off Bishop Elder and Deacon being by God him self the office off tharchbishop was deuised and browght in by man And although this be proof enough to them that haue their senses exercised in the holy scripture where in the ministerie oftentimes they are called straungers which haue not their offices limited by the prescript off Gods word yet that it may appeare how litle modestie there is in this strong deniall
how this vvill agree vvith that here in the tenth and 13. diuis I haue shewed that it is one thing to be conteined an other to be expressed in scripture Therfore if yowr cawse haue no better hould then that it must goe to the ground I haue shewed how this answer of leauing thinges to the order off the church varied by circumstance c. can not stand in the Archbishops case nor ordinary gouernement of the church The argument is not off lykes or payres but of the smaller vnto the great And although it should be true that yow say that the Lord loued the church then aswell as he doth now yet the reason is still of the les vnto the great For yf he did so particularly describe the offices not of such excellencie and vveight as the offices and mynisteries of the gospell yt must follow that he hath much more vsed that dyligence in particular description of the mynisteries hereof If the 4. off Iohn meane that our Sauiour should tell all thinges necessary to saluation then the Mynisterie vvith the degrees theroff being necessary and vvithowt the vvhich the Lord doth not ordinarily gyue any saluacion at all yt is cleare that he hath also declared all degrees thereoff That owt off Sainct Iohn 20. is spoken of the miracles our Sauiour did not off his doctrine and is thrust in by strong handes in this place The cheif amongest the rest off the Mynisters I might well with S. Paul call the pillers and therfore if the Lord should haue made no mention off the Archbishops they keping suche a place as they doo yt is truly saide that the pillers should haue bene forgotten Yf the Magistrate were an officer of the church and not of the commen wealth there are many places in scripture both ould and new that describe his office ād all that perteineth to him at large Wherof if the Ans can bring but one for his Archbishop this controuersie is at an end Here be many we knowes wherof some are not indebate and those vvhich be haue no causes annexed vvith them vvherby other might come to knowledge off them as vvell as he Yt is therfore enough to haue mentioned mine answer vvithout staying in confutation of all those thinges vvhich he at all aduentures throweth owt to make vp an answer He saith it is daungerous to say that the ministeries owght not to be reteined withowt which the church is fully builded becawse the Magistrate is therby shut forth as well as the Archbishop Our questiō is what ecclesiasticall ministeries are sufficient the mention therfore off the ciuil Magistrate is absurd Also it is too great ether ouersight or peruersenes not to vnderstand that an vniuersall rule is not to be racked to euery thing but is true off those thinges vvheroff it is gyuen Beside that hereby at vnawares he confesseth that the church may be fully builded and accomplished withowt a Christian Magistrate which is against that he saith the magistrate is the head of the church His exception that there is no perfection off vnitie off the church by reason off good and bad mingled first is nothing to this question secondly yt is a quarell not against me but S Paul vvhose wordes I vsed Thirdly as the ministeries off the vvord are saide to saue and bring vs to the kingdome off heauen becawse they gyue both entrance and aduancement therunto although vve come not to full possession off them so long as we being in this life need them still so they are vvell saied to bring vs to perfectiō of vnitie because hauing begun to knit vs together here they follow still vvith new increases vntill vve come to perfection in the life to come As for that there must be offices as well to preserue and kepe the perfection off vnitie as to build yt and bring it therunto beside that for shift off answer he is driuen as yt were with one breath to affirme that he denied before off the perfection of vnitie he must vnderstand that the church is alwaies in building as long at it is here vpon earth and alwaies in knitting Therfore if those offices be sufficent to build and knit they are perfectly sufficient and if tharchbishops office be to kepe the church builded and knit yt is manifest vve may spare him here and that his seruice must then begin when all other ministries take end The next diuis hath for answer according to the D. coustome onely that which I preuēting answered afterwad sauing that he addeth as an exceptiō that there be Apostles which there reckened are notwithstanding by vs shut owt from the present estate off this church as yf he vnderstood not that in the founding of the church thes may be necessarie which afterward are not which also being intreated off in an other place needeth not here to be repeated Yt is Calu. which reasoneth of the place of the Ephesiās that forsomuch as the Apostle saith that the church is fully builded withowt a Pope therfore there owght to be no Pope and how slenderly soeuer he seemeth to the Ans to haue reasoned yet shall yt appeare by the vanitie of his exceptiōs against it cōming afterward to be discussed that yt is weighty But where he saith albeit the argumēt be good against the Pope yet yt ys not so against the archbishop onles he can exempt hym by miracle or teach vs some other Logick then hath hitherto bene heard off the reason includeth him as well as the Pope For if it be graunted that the Popes office is therfore vnprofitable to the church becawse S. Paul made no mention off it in the ministeries requisite for the building theroff there being like wise no mention off the office off an Archbishop yt must theruppon follow that tharchbishop also is vnprofitable yf there be the same cawse there must follow the same effect The reason added off the Pope doing thinges which tharchbishop doth not claiming thinges which tharchbishop claimeth not c. hath no place at all for the question is not off the abuse and tyrannie off the Pope but whether as it is vnprofitable that one should gouerne all the churches in the world so yt be also that he should gouerne all in a whole prouince And by the D. answer the office off Pastors should be vnlawfull if they chalenge vnto them selues thinges vnlawfull and the Popes office good and lawfull if he bearing rule ouer all churches would absteine from those and such like chalenges which the Ans setteth downe The contrary wheroff is true For as the Pastors office can by no owtrage of him that exerciseth it be made vnlawfull so the vsage of dominion off one ouer all be yt neuer so moderate and qualified can neuer be lawfull Last of all the Archbishop him self if he should chalenge those thinges in his prouince which the Pope chalengeth ouer the world should be by this reason as vnlawfull an officer as the Pope
Therfore this difference betwene the Archbishop and Pope being accidentall and not towching the nature off the gouernement wheroff we haue to enquire is vnstilfully alledged Yet it is the hole wheruÌ„to the Ans is coÌ„pelled diuers times to haue his recourse That the ministerie is a matter of saluacioÌ„ that tharchbishop is a new ministerie that it is absurd here to flie to thexample off the Magistrate where the questioÌ„ is what Ecclesiasticall offices are profitable is before declared The Ans conclusion off my replie touching the place to the Ephes is euill shut vp For where he saith that tharchbishoprick may stand becawse that place reckening vp onely the ministeries of the word that is a ministerie off order and policie how could he forget that tharchbishop medleth with the ministerie of the word and therfore it was necessarie to be here mentioned if the Apostle had gyuen hym any place in the church If he will say that he hath not onely the mynisterie off the word but off order also the answer is at hand that so had both the Apostles by his owne confession and all the rest off those ministeries as appeareth afterward Whether therfore tharchbishop be considered in his ministerie of the word or as together with that he holdeth the raignes off gouernement or as one of the most principall ministeries of the church ether he hath his place here to the Ephes or not aâ— all For both all ministeries off the word to speak as the D. separate from gouernement and order and all occupied in the word and gouernement ioyntly and all principall ministeries of off the church are here reckened vp Euery one then off thes three cawses being sufficient to haue made mention of tharchbishop all together put a necessitie vpon the Apostle to speake off him if he had bene worth the speaking off Where he thincketh there was no cause to speake off him for that he differeth not from a bishop in ministerie off the word but in order and gouernement onely and that therfore yt is no diuers ministerie from the bishops office by the same reason I may say that S. Paul needed not to haue mentioned Pastors c. For the Pastors preached the word as the Apostles But yf this one difference alhough there were no moe make the ministerie of Apostles and pastors diuers that th one hath charge off one onely church thother off aâ—ryâ— must follow that the ministerie off an archbishop is diuers from the bishops th one watching ouer a whole prouince thother ouer a diocese onely Yea it is plaine off that spoken before off the Archbishops new ministerie that there are as many or moe thinges wherby he differeth from a bishop then any of thes ministeries S. Paul reckeneth vp differ one from an other His answer to the place off the Corinth consisteth in that he would proue that the diuision off offices there is perfect Wherin it it easie to see what extremitie my reply which he calleth a vaine shift draue him vnto and how he could not couer his nakednes here but with discouering an other place as vnsemely as this For amongest his answers to the place off the Ephes wherby he would proue that that diuision is not perfect this was one in the latin pamphlet that to the Corinth S. Paul speaketh off Apostles Prophetes and Doctors leauing owt Euangelistes and Pastors and now to auoide my replie to that answer he saith cleane contrarie that the Apostle made there a perfect diuisioÌ„ of offices But let vs see whether this chauÌ„ge be for the better Where he saith Saint Paul did more perfectly deuide to the Corinth then to the Ephes he is deceiued For euen by his owne confession he speaking there of preaching offices onely not off all offices off the church and there being none other preaching offices but those which he reckeneth vp yt followeth that he made there a perfect diuision In the place to the Corinth that there is no perfect diuision although the D. wordes he chaunged yet his reason he vsed standeth still that the Euangelist is not there mentioned nor Pastor which were offices in the church Beside that he kepeth in this refutatioÌ„ his ould wont which is to cut the knot and not to lose yt For he bringeth reasons of his to proue the perfectioÌ„ of the diuision withowt answering mine And yet his be such as are vnwothy answer For in the first beside that yt is vntrue that the Apostle made a perfect diuision of giftes in the church if he had yet it followeth not that he made the same in offices especially wheÌ„ he wil needs separate offices from giftes The second reason therfore yt is a perfect diuision because there is added first second third is as simple as the first for those wordes are not put there to note the noÌ„bre of offices but to declare which is highest in degree and which next c. aÌ„d if they did yet I neuer could yet read that they were notes off a perfect diuision His third because yt hath moe members then that in the Ephesâ— I think he vnderstandeth by this tyme what strenght yt hath if he remember that which I answered that the Apostles meaning to the Eph. was not to deuide the offices of the church in generall but those onely which handle the word onles par aduenture he thinck that he maketh a fuller partition which deuideth both the handes into eight fingers then which denideth one into fiue Martyrs autoritie doth not help him For he saith not that he reckeneth all the partes of the church particularly or how many it hath which he should haue saide to help him but onely that he reckeneth vp what members the church hath which he doth that reherseth some Whether a bishop be conteined vnder a Pastor or rather a Pastor vnder a bishop shall not now be the question But yow are inconstant in all yowr waies and haue one senteÌ„ce standing an other sitting For albeit I should agree with yow that a bishop is a Pastor yet yow doo not agree with yowr self For otherwere in stretching owt the Bishops armes yow haue thes wordes a bishop is both superior in office and giftes vnto a Pastor If he be so he can not be conteined vnder him for that vvhich conteineth an other thing hath at the least all in it self which the conteined hath Againe if I graunt a bishop conteined vnder the Pastor S. Paul speaketh of yet I will not graunt that the bishop yow meane which hauing so many churches to rule hath neuer a one where he doth the office off a bishop is conteined vnder S. Paules Pastor For seing his foundacion is laied in Ieromes bishop proued before and after not to be of the institutioÌ„ of God but off man yt can not be that our kinde of bishop shoulde be comprehended vnder S. Paules Pastor Wheruppon also followeth that tharchbishop which hath a necessarie relation to that kinde off bishop and can not
stand withowt him is not by any meanes conteined vnder S. Paules Pastor The proofes of yowr diuision of bishops into archbishops and those called by the commen name of bishops are as doubtfull as that wherfore they are brought To proue that the office off an Archbishop was in S. Paules tyme although the name were not is brought the word Consubstantiall ▪ which being the commen hooke off the Papistes to pull in their vnwrittē verities owght to serue the reader for a watch word that tharbishops office needing this phisick is sick off the same disease And for the word it self although it be lawful ād very conuenient and the councell off Syrme did not well in yealding vnto the Arrians to the displacing of it yet yt is not necessarie as withowt which the doctrine off the truth off the diuinitie off our Sauiour Christ can not be mainteined For to say so were to accuse the holy writers S. Iohn especially which debating that cawse against the heretickes of his time Cerinthus Ebion c. did neuer vse it But what is this vnto the Archbishop let vs haue but one testimonie owt off the word off God off the office off an Archbishop for the infinite testimonies off the diuinitie of the sonne of God and then this example may help yow And although the word Consubstantiall were not in S. Paules tyme Yet wordes off the same weight were If yow can shew therfore wordes of the same valew with Archbishop although yow shew not this yt shall be sufficiēt if yow can not then this example maketh against yow Here also is further to be obserued that this answer off the D. off the office of the archbishop being in the Apostles time although the name was not is the armour vvherewith the Popes title of vniuersall bishop is mainteined For this is Hardinges answer to the bishop that although the name of vniuersall bishop was not at the first gyuen to the Pope yet the autoritie was After he flieth to his ould refuge of the Prince and there seeketh couer for the Archbishop asking whether he shall haue no autoritie in the church becawse he was not in S. Paules tyme. Although S. Paul had saied that our Sauiour Christ had gyuen princes vnto his church immediatly after his ascension as he beareth vs in hand he gaue archbishops ether they must haue had autoritie then or neuer after So keeping yowr similitude if our Sauiour gaue Archbishops when he ascended and in S. Paules time ether they must haue had their autoritie then or neuer after And the case is nothing like for if there were no Christian Princes in the Apostles times they being needfull for preseruation off the churches the cawse was that it was not in the Apostles power to ordein Christian Princes But it was in their power to haue prouided the churches off Archbishops if they had bene needfull and therfore they had bene inexcusable for not appointing them seruing so greatly to the building off the church as we are borne in hand Moreouer the comparison is most vnfitly made seing the cyuill magistrate is a perpetuall office for all times persones places wheras by his owne confession the Archbisop is temporall and arbitrarie Where also he asketh whether the ciuill Magistrate shall not haue the cheif autoritie in gouerning the church because there ys no expresse mention off him in thes two places I answer that the Princes autoritie is established in other places so that it may florish withowt thes But the Archbishoprick seing yt ys an ecclesiasticall function ether must be planted by one off thes places or die in the church considering that there is no ecclesiasticall function which is not here set forth Yowr collection off my wordes is euill bound together for how cleaue thes Some offices instituted off God endured for a time therfore men may deuise new offices Where lieth the strenght of yowr argument Whether in this that becawse God instituted offices for a time therfore man may or in this that God did abrogate certein offices therfore man may institute Which soeuer yow say as yow must needes say one the absurditie is apparant for in both the comparison is made between the autoritie off God and thautoritie off man Betwene whom how great distance there is so great difference is there between yowr argument and a iust conclusion The cleane contrarie is gathered rather For as we reason against the Papistes that God did not abrogate his owne ceremonies that men should thrust in others considering that if he would haue had ceremonies he would haue taken off his owne so yt may be saied that God did not cut off his owne ministeries to make place for others and that if moe ministeries off preaching and gouerning iointly had bene necessarie beside Doctors and Pastors he would rather haue kept his owne then takē those vvhich men deuise Here all shiftes and coulors failing him and not being once able to lift at this reason he hath chaunged my argument For where I had saied yt forth in a plaine hypotheticall Syllogisme he hath altered yt But I will offer yt him againe yf vnder Saint Paules Pastor tharchbishop be comprehended then he is necessarie and commaunded by the vvord off God but yow say he is comprehended therfore he is commaunded and necessarie Which if it be true then yow are fallen from yowr distinction of thinges necessarie to saluacion and not necessarie off thinges arbitrarie and commaunded by the word off god But let vs see now yow haue prepared the argument after yowr owne fashion and as yow thowght yow could weld yt how yow deale with yt Yow say first this proposition Pastors are necessarie at all times is particular verily the masters by whom this should be iudged neuer tawght that an indefinite proposition in a necessarie matter is particular But because yow like not the forme which I vsed yow shall haue it after yowr owne in this sort All S. Paules Pastors are necessarie the Archbishop as yow say is one off S. Paules Pastors therfore he is necessarie Here if yow denie the first proposition yow haue the whole councell and Senate almost of learned men against yow affirming that those two Pastor ād Doctor are amōgest the rest perpetuall offices And if to be a perpetuall office be verified off the Pastor which S Paul speaketh of then it must be verified off all conteined vnderneath amongest whom yow say the Archbishop is Secondly the Archbishop being made one off the giftes which our Sauiour ascending sent vnto his church if yt were in the power off the church ether to establish or not to establish him yt should be in her power to refuse the giftes off Christ which if it be absurd that also must be wheroff this followeth Thirdly if the Archbishop be necessarie at any time which must needes be if he be comprehended vnder S. Paules Pastor then goeth to the grownd his cōmen refuge that his office may be instituted
Timothe a simple bishop as left in one cytie But it is good to obserue by the vvay how the Ans building vvith one hand ouerthroweth vvith the other For let all men that haue but a graine of salt iudge how likely it is that Timothe was Archbishop wheÌ„ so many writers both ould and new yea some in those times that archbishops were speaking of him not one calleth him archbishop but all bishop as in his treatise may appeare but thus their tounges must be confounded that build vpp Babylon As for Titus vvhom Erasmus calleth archbishop to make his autoritie of any vveight he muste needes raise that title ether of some name giuen vnto him in the scripture or of some effect which he was knowen to excute proper to an archbishop or els off some auncient writer But he could not raise it of any title the scripture giueth him there being none such nor off any thing Titus did forasmuch as there is nothing doon off him vvhich the Ans affirmeth not to be commen to euery bishop nothing prescribed to him which was not prescribed to Timothe whom Erasmus calleth simply bishop nor off any auncient vvriter there being none browght nor as I am perswaded can be browght therfore it is cleare that Erasmus calling Titus archbishop hath no weight as one vvhich spake according to the corruption off time vvherin he liued The rest of this diuis is answered before for the next let yt be iudged how yow haue ouerthrowne that alledged towching Timothe and Tite being Euangelistes I will also refer to the readers iudgement what vnlearnednes yt ys to confute autoritie by better autoritie and in vvhat place the D. vvill haue vs receiue mens autoritie vvhen he vvill not haue them controlled by other men How by this meanes he that hath the first place to speake may stop the mouth off all that follow forasmuch as yt shall be vnlawfull for them ether owt off the autors vvhich the first speaker alledged or any other to oppose a contrary sentence How also this being so vnlearnedly doon off me is notwithstanding learned in him which hath vsed it diuers times I leaue also to be iudged how to the pourpose he hath alledged thes examples off Iustice and cheif Iustice seing I helped him with this kinde off diuision and yt might haue easely appeared that my argument vvas that forsomuch as the Scoliast called them simply bishope therfore yt could not be thowght that he esteemed them archbishops vvhich is opposite meÌ„ber in this diuision Last of all how absurdly ys it saied that he which calleth an archbishop a bishop speaketh properly WheÌ„ he that hath litle more then learned his GraÌ„mer knoweth that it is a Trope vvherin the generall is taken for the speciall which is contrary to proper speach To the first reason I haue shewed vvhat mighte lead Erasmus to cal Titus archbishop ouer Crete and not Timothe ouer Ephesus To the seconde I am content that my reason off framing titles according to times be nothing worth yf Erasmus in a matter off diuinitie and hauing the vaile off corrupt tymes to hinder his sighte could not be deceiued which erred in many thinges and in those he sawe was ofte more Cretian theÌ„ Christian The third Erasmus did not gyue Titus a title according to the custome off that age wherin him selfe lyued for that there was then no bishop of Crete â—s there was of Rome when Vincentius lyued ys sensles Consydering that my answer is apparante that in speaking of Titus he applied him selfe to the coustome which had preuailed in all places off calling the bishops off the metrapolitane cyties archbishops which this answer towchech not Let him shewe one approued autor for the name of archbishop or patriarch once onely vsed in Eusebius time or before to note the superioritie off one bishop ouer all his fellowes and wee will all clap our handes vnto him if he can not then yt ys shame to say those names were vsuall in Eusebius tyme. That Nicephorus spake no otherwise off Victor then yow haue set downe yt is all one to me which pourposed to shew that he spake otherwise then ether Eusebius or the trwth would suffer hauing regard vnto the tymes wherin he lyued So that my vntrue reportes off autors are such as they are no more beficiall to my cawse then if I had vsed their very wordes For my answer made vnto Volusianus and Erasmus that men vse to speake and to thincke for the moste parte of thinges past by the measure off thinges present yf yt had no examples to warrant yt with yet yt is so manifest and sensible that I durst barely leaue yt to the conscience off all and yf the D. would gyue the rule of his toung but a litle into the hand of his conscieÌ„ce I dowbt not but he would also confesse yt Howbeit we haue a manifest example in the Centuries which confessing there was no Metropolitane in Cyprians time call him Metropolitane Another in Cornelius whom M. Philpot calleth patriarke of Rome wheÌ„ all know that ther was no patriarke many yeares after him Laste off all when yt happened vnto me to call Cyprian Metrapolitane which am an enemy to that estate as I am also charged therwith by the D. following therin the custome off the tymes which folowed how muche more might that befall to others which had no such combat with that office That next conteining vaine excuses to salue ether his ignorance or his vnfaithfullnes I haue answered His escape that Iames called bishop by Eusebius to whom may be adioined Ierome yet might be Archbishop I haue coÌ„futed The plenty off testimonies for the Archbishop browght now hideth not his pouertie in his fyrst boke for all may know that this haruest cam in sithens For the expositioÌ„ of Ireneus which interpreteh they euery one seuerally yf they seuerally ordeined bishope euery one in his circuit so it be vnderstanded with the churches consent as is before declared I am well content Yf the error off my argument had bene so grosse as yowr sight had perceiued yt I had bin sure to haue heard of yt Whatsoeuer and how many cawses soeuer yow assigne of appoincting an archbishop yet this is a perfect diuision off the subiecte that forsomuch as the Archbishopricke if any owght to be muste needes be both in some person and place not found by thapostels ordination which knewe the best gouernment nether in that person nor place both most fittest and moste likest to receiue yt yt muste folow that yt owght not to be As for yowr exception off the time fyrst yt is your manner that yow might be thowght to haue store off answer to make fowre off one for wheras the tyme and persons to be gouerned the suppression off sectes and peace off the church â–ª are put for seuerall cawses yt ys manifest that one time maketh no difference off gouernement from another
but in respecte off the persons gouerned nor the persons them selues but in respecte of their contentions and alteracion of disposition Then it shall appeare after that the tymes off persequution suche as those were the fittest for that office yf that had bene conuenient This Archbishop saied to be the officer off order confoundeth all order and changeth all an Euangelist into a bishop a bishop into an Archbishop an archbishop into an Apostel an Apostle into an Archbishop which folies are before confuted If S. Iohn were Archbishop or did an Archbishops office in those places where he abode then the other Apostle in their circuites did the like and were likewise Archbishops ouer them and the bishop there so it foloweth that ether there were no Archbishops in the Apostles tymes or if there were any they had nothing to doo their offices being not yet fallen but in the Apostles handes And if the Ans will needes haue S. Iohns antoritie the pose to measure owt the Archbishops autoritie yt muste folow that forasmuch as he had the care and ouersighte of all churches in the world the Archbishop must haue the same For the next section lett the reader iudge whether I haue delte syncerely and whether in saying Anaclete and Anicete are but suspected although he ad not without iuste cawse he leaue to them some credit For the next also of the yeare wherin the Nicene councell was houlden being not to pourpose althowghe I could mainteine the account I folowed I will leaue the Ans in his earnest disputation whose practise is to handle trifles earnestly and earnest thinges triflingly The leape is as great as I haue saied and consequently as dauÌ„gerous to tharchbishops neck For yt falleth still forth that for the space off 300. yeares from the time off the Apostles there is no syllable in any one approued autor off any ether archbishop or Metrapolitane for as for the Canons attributed vnto the Apostles those onely excepted vvhich are to be found in their writinges being as is agreed amongest men off any iudgement gathered off diuers councels in sondry times that which is here alledged off the Ans was by all likelihood drawen owt off the councell off Antioch hauing almost the very vvordes theroff sauing as yt cometh to pas yt being somewhat later is somewhat vvorse The councell of Antioch a good while after that of Nice can not make the fall off tharchbishop les daungerous As for the fable off Archbishops in Englande in Euleutherius tyme yt is before confuted So that if a Metrapolitane were all one with an Archbishop yet he is destitute of the testimonie off the purest and best tymes Where the D. thincketh those wordes off the councell off Nice Let the auncient custome be kepte will saue his necke and his body from harme he is deceiued For this word auncient being in nomber off those which haue relation and depend of others signifieth a greater or smaller time according to the thinges vvherwith it is coÌ„pared or hath relatioÌ„ vnto so that that maie be and often is called auncient which is but of very fewe yeares and vvhich other sometime can not be so called withowt a greater nomber The bishops therfore comparing that decree with other made at that tyme and not before called that an auncient custome And yt can be no straunge kinde off speach for the ministers being assembled together to speake off a matter continued a score off prouinciall Synodes and houlden in the space off 10. yeares after this sorte In suche and such thinges vvee vvill kepe our old coustome And that yt could not be long before the councell off Nice beside no testimony to the contrary â–ª Aeneas Syâ—uius gyueth this for vs before the Nicene councell euery bishop lyued vnto him self and smale regard vvas had to the bishops of home But admit yt had bene so before the councell off Nice 20. yea 30. yeares yet by yowr owne counte there is no mention off him all that time which I haue affirmed which is 300. yeares after our Sauiour Christes ascension Now therfore that the auncientie off the Metrapolitane appeareth not by this councell to be other then I alledged Let vs see what credite yt owghte to haue to proue that this decree off theirs was good For therunto the D. regardeth when he saith the notable and famous councell off Nice muste be off all wise and learned men nexte vnto the scriptures reuerenced c. It is sure that hauing regard to the decision off the different touching the perfect vnitie off substance of our Sauiour Christ with God the Father it giuing sentence vppon the vnfallible word off God is worthy to be reuerenced But if the D. will haue their soundnes in that poincte autorise the rest and that our reuerence to yt should close vp our mouthes from demaunding from whence the other canons come what ground they haue yt is that which we can by no meanes consent vnto And that yt may appeare how iustly we call this canon off the councell vnto the towch stone of the word off God let it be considered what is ordeined off them in the 12. and 23. Canons after Ruffin where they prescribe seuen yeares vnto one fallen in to Idolatrie all which tyme althowgh very repentante they forbid him the supper off the lord where also yt kepeth owte one which coming from the warr retourneth thether againe by the space off thirtene years c. which seueritie to let pas the rest as yt is againste the rule of S. Paule so yt could not but put a halter in the deuiles hand to snare a noÌ„ber of soules with all what corruption there was further at that time ether by ignorance or ambition may appeare by that if one Paphenutius had not beene they had all concluded against the honorable societie off bishops elders and Deacons vvith their lawfull wiues Yf the Ans say thes errors were but the errors off those bishops onely but the canon off a Metrapolitane hath beside their allowance the approbation off the former times also so that althowgh their single autoritie be not hable to waie yt downe yet helped vvith the auncient coustome before yt will carie yt away I answer that in the same councell appeareth that to those chosen vnto the ministrie vnmaried yt was not lawfull to take any wife afterwardes onely being maried before entrance into the mynistrie it was lawfull for them to vse the benefite of that mariadge And Paphenutius sheweth that not onely this was before that councell but was an auncieÌ„t tradition of the churche vvhich both him selfe and the reste off the councell rested in what soeuer credit therfore in any respecte cometh vnto the Metrapolitane by this sixt canoÌ„ the same in euery point cometh to this so great a corruptioÌ„ that nether single ministers might mary nor those which entred maried might after death of their wiues mary againe Yf the fame of the councell can not wipe
M. Knox which had put them to flight should take heede that he suffred them not to come in againe althovvgh it pretend to haue great force to kepe vnitie vnder vvhich pretence it deceiued the auncient Fathers Thus yt appeareth what Bezaes iudgement is both off thes names and offices Now I retourne to the places alledged off the D. Where he is saied to affirme that archbishops c. are called in scriptures by one commen name off Pastors and Bishops his wordes can not be referred vnto the name or office of Archbishop For considering there is no mention off them in scripture the scripture can not call them Pastors and Bishops especially seing he sheweth how they are Pastors in respect off administration off the word and Sacramentes not in that they rule ouer Bishops in which regard onely it is confessed that they were called Archbishops c. Where he affirmeth him to call the names holy the names which he calleth holy are the names of Apostles and bishops not of archbishops c. which may appeare by that following and therfore they glory off the succession off the Apostles and true Bishops For seing they conuey them selues vnto the succession off the Apostles and Bishops vnder the cloke off names what names are so fiâ— to disguise them that they might be so taken as those And where he saith he reckeneth vp archdeacons Canons Seniors Deanes subdeacons clearkes amongest degrees taken owt off the word off God and from the Primitiue church fyrst he hath not they were taken but they seeme to haue taken c. Then if the auncient church be taken for that almost 400. yeares after Christ as yt may be compared with that â—00 yeares after Christ we deny not but thes names were in the Primitiue church Moreouer the Ans to help the Dean hath falsified Beza translating for Deacon Deane which haue no more kindred then a mat and a mattock Last off all if he could haue brought this testimonie owt off Beza for allowance off names yet he should haue bene afraied to haue vsed this aduantage seing that place ministreth moe weapons to beate then to defend him For there he condemneth flatly as a rable and filthy assemble of monsters vnheard off in the auncient church the degrees of Suffraganes Officials Proctors Vicares Chapleines c none off which I suppose the D. may well spare in vpholding that estate which he phansieth so good I appele not vnto the Apostles times onely but vnto the doctrine and order established where we are sure there is light withowt darcknes truth withowt daunger off errors And if we leauing thapostles should take a patron off gouernement off men which may be deceiued yt owght rather to be drawen from the Apostles times then from those 500. yeares after those being so much purer as they were neerer the incomparable brightnes of the gospell which shyned then and further from those mistie times off Antichrist wherwith after the whole earth was ouercast For if this man off sin being in the eg in thappostles time receyned by litle and litle continuall increase vntill he came to his full growght I see not why there was not as great oddes betwene the purenes off the church in thapostles time and that 500. yeares after as betwene this and that 1000. yeare after the Apostels And if there were no remedie against the corruptions off those purest times but in taking heed to the light which the Lord had set vp in the doctrine and gouernement off thapostles how muche more for remedie against such palpable darcknes as couered the face off the earth in our times owght we to haue resorted vnto that perfect and vnmedled light not vnto them whose both heauens vvere darker and sight dimmer and which beside greater night within them selues by reason off their infirmitie had lesse day withowt by reason of the glowmie times To that alledged and confirmed that thes dignities off Metrapolitanes archbishops c. were as the handes that pulled the feet vvhich brovvght the shoulders that lifted vp the Pope into his seat vvhich othervvise he could neuer haue atteined vnto the Ans saith onely that sectes and heresies gaue strenght vnto Antichrist which is nothing to pourpose as thowgh both thes coulde not stand well together Where he saith the writers and Councells off 500. yeares laboured to kepe owt Antichrist and therfore thinges taken from them can not iustly be suspected I merueill he vnderstandeth not first that diuers off that auncientie he speaketh off and off the cheifest of them knew not what Antichrist was but imagined fnodly of him as of one singular person and that he should starte vp soudenly c. that Elias should come to destroie him that he should be borne of the Iewes that he should raigne in Ierusalem and diuers other suche fables Secondly that he remembreth not the ignorance off men to be such that they often times make him a bridge against whom they thinke to stop the passage Thirdly that being oftentimes ouermastred off their affections with hinderance off the truthe they giue somewhat to them Further that errors and heresies as he saithe strengthening Antechriste he coulde forgette the manifolde errors which are to be founde in the fathers of the time he prescribeth Laste off all if he coulde be ignorante off thes thinges yet examples off our daies might haue tawght him that euen now there be which knowing Antichriste and detesting him cease not to mainteine thinges wherby that kingdome partly standeth Where he saith no man of modesty and learning will condemne orders of that time withowte manifeste proofe especially in gouernement I would gladly knowe of him why he should add especially in gouernement what reason can he shewe why we shoulde not call their gouernement to as narrow a searche and as streight a trial as their doctrine When as yt can not be but where the Doctrine is attainted the infection theroff muste nedes come vnto the discipline especially when the Mynisters which sitte at the sierne off gouernement be seased with that euill And the discipline of the churche being the wall wherwith the doctrine ys kept safe as in a citie the wall is that which feeleth the firste assaulte and is battered before the citie can lie open to the violence off the artillery so in the siege off the churche by spirituall ennemies the discipline and gouernement is that wherinto the firste breache is made So that hauinge good cawse to holde for suspecte whatsoeuer either in doctrine or in gouernement those times lefte vnto vs not confirmed by substanciall proofes owte of the worde we haue yet better cawse to mistruste their gouernement as that which hauing abidden the greatest brunte hathe more neede off reparacions This appeareth in the firste Councell of Nice where the moste off errors decreed vppon were in the discipline and not so much in the doctrine beside the vngodly coustome which may appeare to haue occupied almost all the churches towching
the places harde by and lykewise a deacon three which together with their owne bishop should haue autoritie to heare and determine the causes in debate Now if for euery accusation of a bishop there were assembled 12. bishops at the least and that when the matter required haste for euerie accusation of an elder six and off a Deacon three beside their owne bishop and that those might be taken in places harde by all men maye vnderstande that there was more neighbourhood in bishops then is nowe and that yt behoued that those bishops dwelte within no greate compas which might be assembled with suche commoditie For if we shoulde imagine the same condition off bishops then which is nowe how euill aduised should the Councell haue bene to cawse so manie bishops to come so farre with so greate charges with suche longe absence from their churches with suche delaie and suspence off the purgation off them whose speedie dispatche stoode so greatly vpon the glorie off God and edification of their churches Herof yt may easely be seene that this blessing and gifte of God in hauing off a bishop rained not onely vpon greate cities and greate townes but euen ouer litle borowghes and villages where there was a sufficiente congregacion hable to mainteine this mynisterie off the worde And althowghe there be diuerse cawses why the aunciente stories doo not so often make mention of the bishopes of vplandishe townes as that in those tymes of persequution a nomber off them did scarcely yelde one sufficiente companie hable to mainteine the mynisterie off the worde and that by all likelihoode the countrey men rownde abowte made their resorte vnto the good townes nexte them which had a bishop and for that the stories for the moste parte keepe the memorie onely of the moste famous bishops which by godly policie off the churche were placed in the moste peopled townes yet notwithstanding yt ys not harde to shew diuers which are expressedly called bishops off small townes or villages As off one Zorâ—cus Bishop of the village of Coman of Mares Bishop of a small towne called Dolicha of Asclepius Bishop of a small towne in Africa and of others vvhich partly I haue alredy shewed owte off the testimonie off Ierome and partly shall be shewed God willing in discouse off Cyprians testimonies I leaue also to speake of Gregorie bishop of a small cytie called Nazâ—anzum of an other which was priest of the Castle Cumane that is Bishop both which are as well forbidden as to haue a bishop in a village I followeth to shewe vpon what cawses and by what meanes the churche so fruictfull in Bishops became afterwarde so baren wheroff albeit yt is moste certein that the principall cause was the wrathe off the lord who angrie with his churche sente suche a dearthe yet the doings off men which God had disposed of wisely for the accomplishement of his counsell towchinge the man of synne were partly vnaduised partly proceeding off ambicion and that not alwaies after one sorte but taking encrease and gathering strenght with the time So that the ambition which at the first was kepte in some awe and restraincte in the ende brake owte and shewed yt selfe as yt were bare faced In the Africane Councell yt appearethe that before a certeine lawe made of the Emperour whersoeuer aÌ„d in what diocese soeuer there was a churche off Donatistes conuerted vnto the Catholike churche that those proselytes and conuertes had a Bishop of their owne and the Councell there confessethe that they deserued so to haue Wherupon yt folowethe that how many churches so euer off the Donatistes were conuerted so manie Bishops at the leaste there might be in one onely diocese And if this were a good lawe and equall as the Councell confessethe what cause can be assigned why yt shoulde be taken awaie as appeareth yt vvas afterward In the second Councell of Carthage yt vvas decreed that those dioceses which had no bishops should haue none aÌ„d those which had should kepe their proper Bishop Notwithstanding if the number off the faithfull should encrease in that diocese that the people desyring a Bishop if the bishop of the diocese consented therunto might haue another bishop Now in that the Councell ordeined that there should be no bishops in that diocese where there had bene none yt is apparaÌ„te that their dioceses were not the tweÌ„tith parte so large as ours For is there any likelihoode consideringe the nomber off the bishops before proued that the Councell woulde decree that there should be no bishop within 30. or 40. myles as it is with vs And when it ordeineth that in that diocese where there was a bishop alredy the nomber of the faithfull encreasing there might be at the instance off the churches and consente of the bishop other bishops ordeined yt vttereth the cause vvhy diuerse parishes rounde abowte vvere the diocese of one bishop namely for that here and there in this aÌ„d that towne there vvas scarce gleaned owte a sufficient number off those which hauing giuen their names to the gospell were hable to make one sufficiente congregatioÌ„ to maintein the ministrie And therfore ordeined that wheÌ„ the harueste of the faithefull should be more plentifull in those places then also counsell might be taken off moe Bishops Wherupon vve may gather this to haue bene a cause of this scarcitie that it being lefte alwaies in the discretion off the Bishop vvhether he vvoulde haue any moe Bishops throwghe Ambicion yt came to passe that the nombre off Christians increasing they woulde not suffer the people to haue moe bishops but ordeining them Elders and Deacons together with the name off the Bishop reteined vnto them selues a greate parte off the autoritie and gouernement to other belongyng And this ys that vvhich that excellent Martir of God William Tindall shortly noted vvhen the multitude off Christians encreased and the church vvas endovved vvith greate possessioÌ„s the bishops made theÌ„ substitutes vvhich they called preistes and kept the name of Bishop vnto them selues And how vnhappely it was lefte in the Bishops choise ether to suffer another bishop to be instituted or no in his diocese maie appeare by this shameful ambition vvhich euen theÌ„ beganne to shew yt selfe For so far vvas yt that they vvoulde departe vvith any already gotten that they assaied to encroche and sometimes by stronge hande vpon the boundes off others as appeareth by the manifolde debates which they had one with another aboute their precinctes testified in the booke of Councells Another cause off this dearthe was an order taken amongest theÌ„ that where in Afrike there were greate swarmes of Donatiste heretikes and other straungers from the churches as euery Bishop gained those foreners vnto the churche so he enioyed them Which thinge extended not onely vnto euery ones owne diocese but also to other dioceses if the other Bishop were somewhat sluggishe in that behalfe which what a greate
off his fellowe bishops assembled in Councell saithe in this sorte but because our prouince is spred forthe larger and hathe bothe Numidia ād Mauritania ioyning he saith not my prouince but our prouince which is manifestly referred vnto all the bishops assembled as the course off the epistle declareth Nether dothe he there speake off any iurisdiction or ouersight which he had more then an other Bishop nether yet off two Mauritanias as the D. saieth but off one onely Yt appeareth therfore that the water where he drew this was trowbled and from whence soeuer he haue yt Eusebius is off more credite in that matter Who speaking of Cyprians large dominion shutteth him with in the precinctes of Carthage saying he vvas bishop of the parish vvhich vvas in Carthage And allthowgh it be cleare that Cyprian had no suche iurisdiction yet to th ende this vnfaithefull dealing maie better appeare let it be considered what was the estate off the churche in Africa aboute 150. yares after when there were Metrapolitanes which had ouersight ouer Prouinces and this weede of Ambitiō had spred yt self much further in the churche In the Councell of Africke yt appeareth that Aurelius which longe after succeded Cyprian in the churche of Carthage had not him selfe anie iurisdiction ouer ether Mauritania or Numidia for that as he was bishop off the firste seate off that prouince wherin Carthage was so Xantippus was Bishop of the firste in Numidia and Nicetius of the firste in Mauritania I omit that Mauritania was deuided from Carthage by sea so that contrary to the D. interpretacion men must haue passed the sea for decision off causes Wherby appeareth what a fable yt is that Cyprian was Metropolitane off those three prouinces when euerie one had a seuerall Metrapolitane Where he cyteth Gregory Nazianzene that Cyprian ruled not onely the church off Carthage but Afrike Spaine and almoste the whole easte partes yt is to be obserued that where the D. seeketh by sea and lande in euery corner for bishops of the largest spred and lōgest armes at the laste he hathe met with one which hathe more then he woulde gladly shoulde be knowen for otherwise why hathe he concealed the reste of Gregories sentence Why hath he cut of the feet off yt why hath he pared Nazianzens wordes Because I haue not the booke I will set it downe as the bishop of Salisbury hath doone Cyprian vvas a bishop the mightiest and noblest off all bishops For he had rule not onely ouer the churche off Carthage and Afrike vvhich vntill this daie is famous off him and by his meanes but ouer all the vveast and in a manner ouer all the East likevvise ouer bothe Northe and Southe Thus appeareth he hath in this place lefte owte both sowthe and North partes off the worlde and for that the Bishop turneth vveast he turneth Spaine where if he cōplaine of the bishops translatiō althowghe I dowbt not but the bishop had reason seing Hesperia is opposed vnto the East yet if it shoulde note any one seuerall countrey yt is like to note Italy For so Ierome writeth that they vsed in times paste to call Hesperiam Italy especially whē it ys vttered simply withowt addyng vtter most nowe all maie vnderstād that Gregories meaning was not that Cyprian vvas ruler off all churches in the worlde in that sense the D. meaneth and that he had autoritie off an archbishop ouer all churches in the world but that he was famous amongest all and sowght vnto for coūsaile frō all partes Wherby appeareth that the iurisdiction bishops had in times paste owte off their certeine congregacions was nothinge but a reuerent estimacion purchased by opiniō of singular learninge and godlines wherby others willingly woulde bothe aske and folowe their aduise in gouernement off their churches And if the D. vvil haue Cyprian archbishop and Metrapolitane ouer all thes places let him answer what shall becomme off his exposition wherby he woulde haue euery Archbishop in his prouince to haue peereles autoritie withowt controlemēt of any other Archbishop what off the Prouince of Italy ascribed vnto Cornelius what off that wherby he saithe none owghte to goe ouer sea for triall off cawses for althowghe we follow his vaine off interpretacion in all thes and for a bishop vnderstande an archbishop for a churche a Prouince for the particular place where the quarell riseth all that circuite which is not parted by sea yet this one assertion off his that Cypriane was Metrapolitane of almoste all the Easte VVeaste Northe and Sowthe ouerthroweth whatsoeuer hathe bene saide in anie off those poinctes For the wyde throate off Cyprians Archbishopricke hathe swallowed vp all the rest and made them all but Suffraganes and by this reckening not onely men must passe the sea but manie seas to haue ende off their cawses Laste off all iff yt be true he beareth vs in hande let him tell vs why the Bishop off Rome maie not haue a souueraintie ouer all churches aswell as he phansieth off the bishop off Carthage considering they are in the same and felowlike degree Therfore onles he will ouerthrowe all that euer he hathe gone aboute to establishe in this cause and onles in trauailinge with the Archbishop he will be deliuered off a Pope and a Pope off the largest cyse and longest laste he must be compelled whether he will or no to expounde this worde gouerned by consailed or excelled or some other worde as kolde and as vnconfortable to the office off a Metrapolitane or archbishop Why Illiricus calleth him metrapolitane I haue shewed He saithe I forget my selfe which call him in one place metropolitā they are selie contradictions allwaies which he chargeth me with For he might haue remembred that I said that this worde metropolitane doothe signifie nothing but bishop off the cheife Citie in which sense I can easely aforde Cyprian to be a Metrapolitane withowte any greate hinderance off my cawse or helpe off his I passe the nexte diu hauing nothing but importunate and shameles begging of thinges in controuersie As that Cornelius had a prouince vnder him that Cyprian was Metropolitane that the place off Cyprian is trwly expounded off an Archbishop that I gyue the Papistes aduantage in saying that the place maketh as muche for a Pope as an archbishop that is to saie nothing for ether Vnto the nexte I haue answered where I laied open the vanitie off his answer that writers passe by the title off archbishops sauing that it is to be noted that where the D. hathe before affirmed in plaine wordes that the name off Pope was commen to all bishops here to gyue some coulor vnto his answer he woulde make vs belieue that the name off Pope was commen not vnto all but to manie bishops c. what M. Fox saithe in that behalfe I referre yt to the reader That the name off Pope was commen to all bishops besides the testimonies I alledged before may be seene
Bishop off the paris hes there which when by common construction yt maye be aswell referred vnto Alexandria onely or vnto the reste off Egypte onely or to bothe together yt was to greate boldnes not onely to gather this sense of Eusebius but also to bringe him in so speaking But that the worde there can not be referred vnto the reste off Aegypte but onely hathe relation vnto the parishes off Alexandria and that as there are no suche wordes as yow ascribe vnto Eusebius so there can be no suche sense as yow Imagin yt may easely and clearly be vnderstanded off that before and after For if nether the bishops of Alexandria before Demetrius nor those after him vnto the times wherin Cyprian and Cornelius liued had that Iurisdiction ouer Egipt which yow Imagin then by all reasonable vnderstanding yt muste be estemed that this worde there owght to be restreined vnto Alexandria Abilius the thirde Bishop off Alexandria after Marke had bene in that churche about the yeare of our Lorde a 100. Eusebius affirmeth to haue bene bishop off the parishe off Alexandria but of the other partes of Egypt maketh no mētion He saith the same off Primus succeding him in that bishoprick off Alexandria the same off Iustus which succeded Primus the same of Eumenes which succeded him the same off an other Marke which succeded him the same of Celadion which succeded him the same off Agrippa whō also he calleth Agripinus which succeded him And where speaking off all the former he saide they vvere bishops off the Parishe off Alexandria off Iuliane which succeded Agripinus he saith he gouerned the churches in or at Alexandria vttering the same thinge by diuers wordes Vnto this Iuliane succeded Demetrius off whom is saide as before hathe bene shewed yea off those which succeded Demetrius as famous and as renoumed as he there is no suche thinge For off receiued the ministerie vvhich vvas at Alexandria likewise of Dionisius which succeded Heracles that he receiued the gouernement of the churches vvhich vvere at Alexandria which Dionysius liued abowte the times off our Cyprian and Cornelius which we haue presently in hande When therfore the Bishops of Alexandria so famous are not red to haue had bishoply autoritie off anie Prouince but are conteined within the circuit off one citie vntill the time off Cyprian and Cornelius yt appeareth not onely that the D. hathe bene abused in thes wordes off Eusebius but that this owght to be an other marke to know that nether Cyprian nor Cornelius had any Bishoplicke autoritie at all further then the cyties wherin their churches were And withall appeareth the cawse why Euseb did no more particularly restreine the bishoprick off Demetrius vnto Alexandria namely for that he had so often spoken before of the precinctes of that bishoprick The next diu hath nothing worth answer being onely that which I in few wordes subscribed vnto Sauing this that Cyprian was Pupianus bishop which maketh nether whot nor kolde vnto this question seing that Pupianus was no bishop but one that sometime had bene off Cyprians churche But of answer to my argument that forasmuche as Cyprian condemneth the pride of Pupian for that his deede vvas like as if one should be appointed bishop of a bishop or iudge of iudge there is no newes wheras if yt were not a proude thinge to be bishop of a bishop c. Cypr. did with no good aduise set owte the faulte of Pupian by those wordes And that Cyprian complaineth not off any wronge doone to him as archbishop which the Ans afraied to affirme would haue his reader thinck but onely as he was Bishop yt appeareth manifestly by diuers places in that he denieth that he pressed him vvith further autoritie then that vvhich all bishops had by succession vnto the Apostels That Cyprian did not obiecte this to appointe hym selfe bishop of a bishop as a prowde name but as a prowde deede is a poore exception for if yt were a prowde deede to exercise the office off bishop ouer a bishop yt muste be also a proude name to be called the bishop off a bishop The Answ wordes carie no meaning with them to cōclude that which this cawse requireth For what meaneth this one bishop off a Prouince had no autoritie ouer another but were equall what is this to my reason which is that forsomuche as the godly vvriters proue the equalitie off the bishop off Rome vvith other bishops for that they called one another fellovves and brethren the bishops off dioceses and metropolitanes calling one an other fellovv bishop fellovv in office brother c doo therby declare that there vvas none vvhich ruled ouer an other For onles the reason be firme in the one yt is not good in the other But he answereth further Cyprian in calling the bishops off his Prouince fellow bishops and brethren declared therby the function to be all one So may the Papistes answer that the Bishop off Rome called the Bishops his fellowes and brethren becawse they had the same function and not in that for pollicie sake they were not subiect vnto him But as that so this is an absurd answer The Godly writers vse not this reason to proue that other bishops exercised the same ministerie off the word and Sacramentes with the bishop of Rome which the Pope him self confesseth but to proue that they were not vnder but off the same autoritie with him which he denieth The next answer Cyprian in calling them fellow bishops declareth his humble spirit is I doubt not althowgh I can not presently note the place another buckler off the Papistes againste this reason As if true humilitie did hinder any to take that honour which his lawfull office ether in churche or commen wealth doth put vpon him He further answereth that S. Peter calling the Bishops and Pastors to whom he wrote fellow Elders was notwithstanding higher in degree then they I graunt but I denie that therfore S. Peter could exercise dominion ouer them When it is saied that fellow bishop importeth equalitie yt is not ment so much for honour as for equalitie in autoritie that one hath ouer an other For in honour the bishop off Rome had some preeminence ouer the Alexandrine c. yt being graunted him to haue the first seat in meetinges which notwithstanding had no dominion Therfore this maketh directly against the dominion off Archbishops For if Peter in degree off ministrie aboue the pastors in calling them fellow elders renounced dominion ouer them how much more owght they forbeare to vse dominion ouer those with whom they carie the same yoke and degree off ministrie To that owt off Cyprian none of thē toke him self bishop off bishops he answereth he meaneth the title off vniuersall bishop which how absurdly it is spoken may appeare by that a before spoken off the Africane Councell His second answer is a pinch at Cyprians autoritie for that thes wordes were
heard off or it could not be doon conueniently without an archbishop by appointing one amongest them at euery off their Synodes who should haue autoritie to call the Synode following Which is likewise answer to his next reason of putting them in minde off their duties Al this may be seeÌ„ not onely by practise of reformed churches in diuers places Fraunce especially where Synodes are assembled from all partes of the realme twise a yeare notwithstanding al that dominioÌ„ of one minister ouer an other pulled vp by the rotes but also in the primitiue church by that recited of one Malchion Who being a simple Elder so far from the estate of aâ—â— Archbishop that he was not Bishop was president in the Councell off Antioch assembled against Samosatenus heresie If a simple Elder might gouerne the Bishops yt shall be to great shame for them not to suffer them selues to be gouerned for the time by one of their owne order withowt making an archbishop Wherby appeareth how vntollerable the D. is which condemneth this order as inconuenient confused disordered Where he saith it can not be but a great help that one haue cheif care of prescruacion of vnitie the office off an archbishop can put no further care for the church vpon any then the Lord putteth on hym by vertue off the office off bishop For if the gouernement off his owne church take not vp all his thowghtes and cares whatsoeuer is left is due vnto other churches by ordinance off the lord Forsomuche therfore as euery bishop in the Prouince by calling off God careth to the vttermost of his power for the churches wheruÌ„to he is associated and tharchbishop can doo no more then what lieth in his power it followeth that there can be no calling off men which can ad vnto his care for this vnitie If he saie that this institucion off men causeth the care coÌ„maunded off god the rather performed firste yt is vntrue for althowghe the ordinances off men maie gyue a prick to the doynge off thinges owtwarde yet they are not hable to moue the conscieÌ„ce and inwarde affections wheroff the care he speaketh off is a fruicte Then yf it had suche force as to awake his care yet that shoulde be with no aduantage vnto the churches of the Prounce forsomuche as that woulde giue occasion vnto other bishops off diminishing theirs whilest they phansie with them selues a streighter bonde to prouide for the vnitie off the churche in the archebishop then in them selues And so the care by this meanes reuiued in one shoulde die in a great nomber where he addeth as yt is in other societies yt hathe bene shewed that our Sauiour Christ forbad that rule off one minister ouer an other in the churche which maie be vsed in the common wealth Althowghe I haue answered further vnto this pointe where those societies are particularly specified Where he asketh what if the bishops were deuided amoÌ„gest them sel ues who should compounde their controuersies He hathe his answer that he may call them together in whose hande the laste Synode lefte that autoritie And what yf the archbishop him selfe draw owte off his trace and be ether deuided from all the bishops or from the better and sounder parte standing this goodly order who shall range him And when the D. saithe that tharchbishop can not deale for appeasing off controuersies but by persuasion and that composition which is made by intreatie off parties maie be made conueniently by equals what needethe there any superior archbishop How vntruly the Ans writeth off the archbishops and bishops autoritie in our church to hyde the hornes off their immoderate power both in this diuis and that before the eyes and eares off all men are witnes But as he serueth tharchbishops and bishops in this defense so for recompense off his paines he maketh them waite vpon him and hauing now set them on horseback by and by for shift of answer he maketh them light and goe a foote with their fellowes Cyprian saith the cause muste be heard vvhere the faulte vvas committed the D. that is to be vnderstanded of the Prouince or diocese as if it were not hearde within the prouince and diocese when yt is hearde within that particular churche where the controuersy groweth Therfore to make good his answer thus he must interprete thes wordes there vvhere the faulte vvas committed it shall be heard whersoeuer in the Prouince or diocese the faulte is committed yt must be hearde at the archbishops or bishops palace The firste interpretacion is coÌ„trarie to the proprietie of speache For seing matter rising in a particular church is saide properly to rise there where yt was doone and can not but improperly and by figure be saide to rise in the Prouince or diocese yt is manifest that Cyprian is made withowte any necessitie to sprake improperly As for the nexte interpretacion yt is cleane contrary to Cyprians meaning For when he will haue the matter there handled where they may haue bothe accusers and vvitnes that can be by no meanes vnderstoode off the Archbishops or bishops consistory For the parties haue not their witnesses aÌ„d accusers there whether they are coÌ„streined with greaate charges and longe iorneis to transporte them Where he saith Cyprian speaketh againste those which wente from Africk into Italie I preuented that shewing the reason is generall and seruing aswell againste those which will pull their causes vnto their hearing which dwell a 100. or 200. miles off them as againste those which carie them from one contrey to an other wherunto he answereth nothing For if there shoulde be a bare opposition betwene Africke and Rome and not rather betweene the place where the coÌ„trouersie riseth and that far of as lawfull as yt ys for him to say Cyprian meaneth not a particular churche where the cawse riseth but the diocese or Prouince so lawfull ys yt for me to saie that he meaneth nether diocese nor prouince but onely that quarter which makethe the fourth parte of the worlde So that by this meanes the cause rising in Mauritania maie be iudged in Aethiopia which is more then 10. times farther a sonder theÌ„ Rome froÌ„ Carthage And consequently yt should follow that any controuersy rising in the churche off Englande may be determined at Rome being a parte off Europe as at the place by his answer where the cause rose Where he saith there ys no Prouince with vs where bothe the accusers and witnesses may not be browght I graunt if they come and leaue their busines at home yf they die not by the way if the parties be able to beare their charges And with thes conditions they may be browght further And by this exposition off the Ans the triall made in passing the seas which the councell off Africk after forbad may be a great deale more commodious then the archbishops For they which dwell by the seaside may both with more ease and lesse charges haue end of their matters in
which the Ans hathe alledged yf yt be weighed dothe sufficiently declare how farre Dionysius was front that antoritie euer the churches off Pentapolis which he imagineth For there ys shewed bow when he vnderstoode off certeine bishops there leauened with the heresie of Sabellius he sente messengers to them to call them backe from their heresie And when they wente yet forwarde more impudently what iurisdiction doothe he exercise againste them doothe he cause them to appeare before him send owt the sentence off excōmunication remoue them from their charges suspende them at the leaste vntill some triall off their amendement none off all thes but saith he vvas by this stubbernes off theirs compelled to vvrite againste them And yet if Dionysius might haue vsed this autoritie he woulde no dowbte and if he had Athanasius would by no meanes haue let it passe For if he could haue alledged that Dionysius had ether deposed suspended or excommunicated those Sabellian bishops yt had bene a singular meanes to haue stopped the mouthe off the Arrians which woulde haue borne men in hande that Dionysius fauored Sabellius heresie and consequently also theirs And towching the gouernement off his owne churche in Alexandria how farre yt was from that lordlie dominion the bishops and archbishop vse now maie appeare in that he calleth the elders off the churche off Alexandria his felovv elders After folowethe one Gregory which he auoucheth owte of Euseb 7. li. 24. to haue gouerned all the churches throwghe Pontus firste this word all is not founde there Secondly yt is vtterly vntrue that he saith he gouerned all the churches For Eusebius ioineth Athenodorus with him as his matche in all pointes So that if there were any archbishop there it was two headed contrary to the archbishops institution supposed of his patrons Thirdly yt appeareth in an other place where Eusebius speaketh of them againe that they were not bishops off all the churches of Pontus but had onely their parishes or churches in Pontus And the cause why Euseb made mention of those onely was as is there apparant because they were the moste famous amongeste the Bishopes in those partes and therfore by all likelihood chosen owte off the reste were sent vnto the Councell off Antioche gathered against the heresie of Sabellius Therforè he which is saide off the D. to haue bene ruler off all the churches off Pontus is founde to haue but one onely parishe in that circuite Peter Bishop off Alexandria foloweth which hauing regarde vnto the time wherin he died was onely aboute eight yeares before the Councell off Nice So that the Answ in saying he was 20. yeares before must be vnderstāded of the tyme he entred into his bishoprick Of him Epiphanius saithe he had the administracion of all the churches of Aegypte was archbishop What manner off archbishoprick and gouernement this was may be gathered by that that Epiphanius saithe Miletius vvas archbishop likevvise and had the gouernement together vvith him And not that onely but that Miletius occupied the seconde place in the archbishopricke vvith Peter Wherby Epiphanius gyueth to vnderstande that there was the third and fourth and consequently as many archbishops as there were bishops off name and estimacion amongest them which beside their owne procured the good off other churches rounde aboute This is further confirmed in that Epiphanius as rendring the cause why he calleth Miletius Archbishop and to haue the seconde place after Peter saithe Miletius seemed to excell the other bishops in Aegypte And where yt is saide that Miletius vvas vnder peter yt is to be vnderstanded that he was vnder him in honor and not subiecte vnto him as vnto a commaunder or as to one which had dominion ouer him as yt shall appeare by the Councell off Nice after and as the discourse of Epiphanius storie plainely shewethe For where as betwene Peter and his adherentes off the one parte and Meletius and his felowes off the other being shut in in prison for testimonie off the trwthe there fell a controuersie abowte receiuing those which had fallen in time off persequution Peter as Epiphanius reporteth desired and made supplication vnto Miletius and the rest saying let vs receiue them and appoint them a penance And when he coulde not gaine his cawse by praier and supplication he spred owte a vaile in the middaste off the prison and proclaimed by a deacon that as manie as vvere off his syde ▪ shoulde come vnto him and those vvhich vvere off Melitius parte shoulde goe to him Wherupon a fevv ioined them selfes vnto him the greater nomber remaining vvhith Melitius In which counte off Epiphanius there is nether any autoritie or dominion pretended by Peter ouer the reste nor any subiection acknowledged off the other but there is to be seene contrariwise all felowlike behauiour of one towardes an other And onles this be the propertie of an Archbishop to be autor off a horrible schisme and rente in the churche whereas yt ys vaunted off him that he compoundeth schismes made by other ther appeareth nothing in Peter in that whole action Archbishoplike If the Answ say the prison was no place where he could exercise his archiepiscopall autoritie the replie is easie that he might as well exercise yt there as owt off prison For yt being a time off persequution he coulde vse no where any other constreint then by the ecclesiasticall censures and those hauing as appeareth a company with him in prison he might as well vse there as being at libertie Hitherto I trust hath appeared that there hath bene not so much as any footing or kold sent ether off archbishop or metropolitan suche as ours yt followeth to examin that owt off the Nicene Councell which bringeth the first tydinges of the Metropolitanes Where we hauing confessed that there were Metropolitanes denied that they vvere like ours how truly resteth to be considered First that which the Answ can most pretend owt off this Councell for iurisdiction off Metropolitanes ouer Bishops off the same Prouince is the bishop off Alexandria ovvght to haue povver ouer the bishops in Egypt Lybia and Pentapolis Thes are the sounding wordes and which carie the greatest noyse off Metropolitane autoritie Yf therfore it fall owt that thes wordes to haue power bring more shew in the eie then weight in the balance then the Answ is greatly fallen from his hope which thincketh to reape of this peace dominion off the Metropolitan ouer other bishops The wordes which the D. turneth to haue gouernement signifie in that place nothing but to g haue cheif dignitie or honour Which is apparant for that the same thing being attributed vnto Rome Antioch and other metropolitane churches is vttered by the word honorable revvard the same that dignitie in the next canon where be speaketh off the bishop off Ierusalem as it is also noted off Villerius where he confirmeth this signification off the word preeminence owt off Plato This may be further vnderstanded
As thowgh if the matter had bene committed to S. Paul onely it should not haue bene with the same bond off keping him to the word yet yt was not so committed as I haue alledged And if he think more succour for him in the wordes he vsed the archbishop must determin according to the rule of the church it is certein also that the companie of Apostles and Elders in Ierusalem and what companie soeuer meeteth together abowt the ending of such matters is subiect vnto all lawful and commendable orders off the churche prouided for the more orderly proceding in that behalf So that there being nothing here alledged by the D. which agreeth not vnto the Apostles and Angels themselues the excessiue autoritie off tharchbishop doth still appeare in that he alone endeth controuersies which in the Apostolike church was not committed but vnto many For as for that in the next diuis he compoundeth not controuersies by him self alone onles he meane that he hath his seruantes the Chaunceler and Archdeacon or some other off his owne châ—â—sâ— â–ª the booke set owt by tharchbishop of late doth declare the coÌ„trary and the experience off his visitacions and deposing off ministers doth openly conuince him of vntruth If he say he is not alone he hath them following him he must vnderstaÌ„d that becawse ether the archbishop carieth their voices vnder his girdell or yf they vse the freedome which is meet yet the approbacion dependeth vpon the archbishops beck he can no more account them to be diuers then a maÌ„ and his shadow following him And where in his former booke he saith the cheif office off an archbishop is to compound contentions schismes c. here being put to his shift he changeth his speach saying it is his principall office to prouide that contentions c. be cut of Where he addeth or els with the Princes consent he setteth an order in a prouinciall Synode If there be any Synode ether to take the iudgement owt off his hand or controll the sentence gyuen by him it is like to be sore against his will. So that the remedy off this mischief dependeth onely vpon the Cyuill power which if ether yt be ennemy to religion or entangled with the present heresie as hath and may herafter come to passe the churche being withowt remedy must languish and pyne away He saith this example of the matter caried to Ierusalem proueth that euery parish within yt self hath no absolute autoritie to end controuersies but it behoueth to resort vnto the cheif church the contrary wherof appeareth For in that they both debated the cawse amongest them selues and when they coulde not agree decreed to send yt to Ierusalem yt ys sufficiently declared that they had autoritie to end it amongeste them and that yt was not wrunge from them by necessitie off law or pretence off higher autoritie but voluntarily sent vp to Ierusalem Althowgh for this place in hand yt ys sufficient that the deciding off controuersies hung not vppon the mouth off one man were he neuer so sufficient but were referred vnto thassemblies of the Auncients and ministers of the word As for his olde shiftes of the weaknes of negatiue argumentes of autoritie and of examples of the scripture and thapostolike church their folie is opened before Here he taketh on against my vnskilfulnes in the scriptures which referred that vnto ministers which is spoken off all the church Howbeit if he had coÌ„ferred the text he should haue found that thapostle speaketh of the Prophe thes and not of the whole church For he biddeth that tvvo or three of the Prophetes should speake and the other that is to say Prophetes should gyue iudgement Which appeareth by the reasoÌ„ added the sprite off the Prophetes is subiect to the Prophetes Therfore the D. corrupteth the place and the argument to proue that not one minster but many owght to determin of doutfull causes is vntowched Where I pressed him with this that vnitie is fully mainteined by the ministeries vvhich God hath ordeined â–ª he asketh how oft I will alledge it Yf it be a fault in me to alledge one place often vpon diuers occasions what is it in him to alledge one thing so continually vppon the same occasion If he would haue opened his eyes he should haue seen that I vsed an argument proper to this place and not vsed before For where he pretendeth the archbishop was ordeined to kepe vnitie I shew that withowt him vnitie is perfectly kept wherunto he answereth nothing but as before But I will serue his tast and giue him change For the Apostle a litle before exhorting to vnitie bringeth also this reason one body one spirit one hope one Lord one faith one baptisme one God c. Wherby appeareth that the apostle tooke thes ones to be sufficient to kepe the people off God in vnitie And if to haue an archbishop had bene so necessary the apostle shoulde haue fowly forgotten him self hauing so fit a place to speake of him And as this is aptly opposed against the pretended peace by a Pope so is yt likewise against that surmised to be browght by the archbishop Where I ask vvhat buckler vve may haue to hould ovvt against the Papistes vvhich come vpon vs vvith the name of traditions off the apostles if vve admit that there vvere archbishops ordeined by them vvherof the scripture maketh no mention he answereth there can be no daunger in them so they be not made necessarie to saluacion but such as receiue alteracion Which althowgh it be cleane contrary to that he saide before where he bindeth vs to obseruation of them as I haue shewed yet it shall be sufficient here to let him vnderstand that he hath vtterly barred him self from this answer for that he saith this ministrie of the Archbishop is necessarie yea most necessarie Now if it be most necessarie for preseruacion of vnitie off the church yt is plaine that it is necessarie also for the saluacion of yt For the next diuis I haue shewed how absurdly the D. defendeth this rouing where let the reader iudge what difference there is betwene our archbishop and Ieromes bishop which differed nothing from a commen minister but that he had the ordeining off ministers And here I call once againe vpon him to shew any godly and learned writer which expoundeth this place of Ierome off an archbishop to see if he be any happier in this place then he was before in Cyprians The Bishop off Salisb affirmeth that the very meaning off Ierome is off euery bishop in his dioces and Harding in the end beaten downe with the light off the place is compelled to confesse it The next I leaue to the reader to iudge by that alledged on both sides The D. saith I refuse Ierome in a matter off storie yet I denie no part off his storie wherin he seemeth to haue lost all commensense For who in
autoritie but also for that they had felowlike autoritie in the deciding off controuersies which rose in their seuerall churches accordinge vnto the lawes After where I quoted certeine places oute off the decrees and other Canons to proue the contention for thes offices the Ans acknowledgeth nothing there that carieth any sounde that waies Albeit the sound was cleare enowghe if he had not bene deafe of that eare For to what ende both in the Nycene Councell where the Metropolitanes are first hard of and when they were yet in the cradell and in many other holden more then 200. yeares after are there founde so many canons for the acknowledging off the autoritie off one Metropolitane in euery Prouince For the honor vvhich he shoulde haue the name he should be called by for the place where they should sytte at their meatinges for the boundes of their circuite doo not all thes declare that there were which were ennemies to that autoritie and that those which were lyfted vp into yt had continuall warre one with an other who should be the first who the greatest who of largeste spreade What meaneth yt also that they changed the seates so often so that the second or third at one Councel was fourth at an other and none at the third and contrariwise he that was none before was cheif afterward What also that the teritoiries appointed by one Councell were abbridged by an other enlarged againe by a third Ys there any man of so smale conceite which doth not hereby vnderstande that this lifting vp of one aboue the reste was a bone caste of the deuill to cause the ministers fall owt one with an other wherby place was made to heresies of all sortes to the vtter vndoing of the church aÌ„d quenching off the gospell And if the D. had bene off so narrowe vnderstanding that vppon so often and so diuers decrees in this behalfe he could not conceiue the contentions which this did breed yet expresse wordes off histories which testifie generally of the coÌ„tentions for those preeminences of Councells as it may appeare by the canons off the Aphrican councel which I haue alledged of the Tauritan which sheweth that the FreÌ„she bishops stroue which church should haue the MetropolitaÌ„ship and how the bishop of Arles and VienÌ„a fell owt for the same were redy to haue informed hiÌ„ of the trwth in this behalfe Yea in the discourse of the Councell of Nice wheron the cheife credit off the Metrapolitane dependeth he might haue redd how almost all the Bishops assembled there had quarels one with an other Which when they were not as doth appeare for diuersitie off iudgement in religion yt is easie to vnderstand that they were for the causes aboue rehersed And if he could be ignorante of all thes yet our stories at home which specifie the combates and going together by the â—ares for thes causes offred vnto him a plentifull proofe off all thes thinges Whherby yt appeareth that this Metropolitaneship was the very apple off contentioÌ„ in schambling for which the church was miserably haled in peaces Therfore forasmuche as the Apostle sheweth that the trwth is kepte by the bonde of vnitie and yt being moste manifeste that thes smokie titles off honor were cawse off contention yt followeth that so farr they are from that pretended off being bulwerckes againste heresies and schismes that they were the principall hookes that pulled them in The Papistes saie that there maie be a bishop of all the whole church because there may be of a prouince I that there can be nether off one nor other They would establishe the Pope by the Archbishop and I ouerthrowe the Archbishop by the Pope This is great ioining with the Papistes If I woulde take the aduantage off your owne wordes firste that there is the same reason of one ouer a diocese and ouer a Prouince and a gaine that forsomuch as one was ouer 12. therfore one maye be ouer a whole prouince I need not seeke for further defense as I haue there declared But againste this M. Caluin and M. Nowell be browght which saie there is not the same reason off one ouer the whole churche and ouer a prouince let yt be so For the one is a more prowder title then the other breaketh in further into the the prerogatiue of Christe then the other And if the church muste needes be accombred ether with Pope or Archbishop let vs graunte so muche to the archbishop that to avoide the Popes iron furnaies wee would be content to grinde in his myll and to a voide the scourge off the one passe by the whip off the other yet heroff foloweth not but that yt ys true I haue set downe For althowghe they are not in all pointes a like nor euery reason which concludeth the one concludeth the other yt hindreth not but ther are certeine reasons which conclude bothe a like That this pointe off keping peace in the church is one off those which requireth as well a Pope ouer all the Archbishops as an archbishop ouer all the bishops in a realme I will goe no further then to the causes your selfe haue assigned For where I shewe that vnitie maie be kepte vvithoute an Archbishop yow assigne two causes for which in keping vnitie yt is meete to haue an Archbishop the one to call the bishops together when there is variance the other to put them in minde of their dewties And if an Archbishop be necessarie for calling of a prouinciall councell when ther is cause off assemblie and when the bishops are deuided yt is necessarie there be also a Pope which maie call the generall Councell when ther is diuision betwene the Archbishops an other cause of generall Councell For wheÌ„ the churches of one Prouince be deuided from other and the archbishops are at variance as yow aske me so I aske yow who shall assemble them together who shall admonishe them off their dewties when they are assembled If you can finde a waie how this maie be doone withowt a Pope the waie is also founde wherby the church is disbourdened off the Archbishop Of the autorities yow alledge nether affirme that the gouernement of an Arbishop ouer a Prouince is conuenient onely they affirme that there is more likelihoode in the one then in the other and that there were archbishops in the churche when ther were no Popes yf one should conclude that becawse a man maie touche the moone with his haÌ„d therfore he maie touche the sonÌ„e and yt be said for answer that althowghe yt be possible to touche the moone yet it foloweth not so of the sonÌ„e who is there of so litle iudgemeÌ„t vvhich vvould gather of this answer that one maye touche the moone vvith his hand And as this proueth that one may ouerthrowe one impossible thing by an other withowt teaching ether off them possible so that I haue alledged 467. pag. perteining to this matter off one vvhich against him that vvould
ministers preach and suppresse heresies so well thorowgh all the church as an archbishop in a Prouince I haue shewed that albeit one be graunted more impossible then the other yet this also is impossible which is sufficient to proue that in hand And that is here confessed when he is constreyned to lay one part off his dutie vpon his Suffraganes shoulders an other vpon his archdeacons c. All which if he be able to beare him self why doth he driue them vnto others Let the church at least be discharged off thes bourdens If not why hath he taken it vpon him Yf the Pope deserue condemnacion for taking more vpon him then he is able to doo the Archbishop and bishops which beare him companie in this point caÌ„ not be separated from it So this reason browght against the Pope standeth fast against them Moreouer as the Pope can not dispatch his matters in the whole churche so well as an Archbis in a prouince so can nether an Archbis in his Prouince so well as a bishop in his dioces nor he in his dioces so wel as in a particular coÌ„gregacioÌ„ doo the duties of a bishop So that this answer no more shutteth owt the Pope then the archbishop or lordly bishop But he saith the archbishop may haue conference with his archdeacons and Chauncelours which the Pope can not He seemeth to haue forgotten the conference by letters and intelligence which the Pope hath had from tyme to time so particular and precise off churches furtheste off him as if he had bene in the bosome off them which pointe Maister Tindall hathe well set forthe And would to God there were the tenth part off the fruicte off the archbishops conference vnto the good off our churche which hathe bene off the Popes to the ouerthrow therof And if conference by mouthe be necessary Rome is not so far but as it hathe bene so it maie be had For besydes that stories aforde vs diuers examples off churches which haue sowght the appeasing off their controuersies from places further remoued then Canterbury is from Rome the marchandrise off vnitie owght to be so precious that we shoulde not doubte to saile for yt vnto the Indes and Garamantes so that if there be suche a mysterie in the nomber of one to kepe vnitie the distance of place owght not to hinder this monarchie off the whole churche yf for no other cause yet for this that when the archbishops of whom hangeth forsoothe the churches peaâ—â— are fallen owt there maie be some to accord them That as the mynisters haue lorde bishops and they tharchbishops so the archbishops might haue a Pope in reuerence off whose autoritie they might easelyer be conioined And in deede by so much more yt is necessary in this respect there should be a Pope ouer the archbishop then ether archbis ouer bishops or bishops ouer ministers as the reÌ„te and diuisioÌ„ in theÌ„ being cheif is more hurtfull then when it falleth amongeste those in lower places For when schismes and heresies light amongeste them they spred so muche further as they with the arme and power off their autoritie are hable to flinge them further then the other The differences betwene the Pope and the archbishop serue but for stuffing for I excepted in my replie the corruptions off doctrine and yow owght to haue vnderstanded that superiority of one bishop ouer all in the catholike churche chosen by consente doothe not necessarily drawe thes accidentes of contempte of Princes of making their decrees equall with the lawes of god c. Yow should therfore haue made yowr coÌ„parison betwene an vniuersall Bishop chosen and not breaking in violently meinteining the truthe and not fighting againste yt c. Vnto that I alledged that thinges passing by voice in the churche of Alexandria the distinction off bishop from the reste off the elders in the church there might come in vvithovvte Saint Marckes consente he saithe nothing And in deede if he had obteined that which he woulde so faine that this alteration was made in S. Marckes time yet he shall neuer obteine this that S. Marke had his hande in that chaunge onles he will saie the Apostells and Apostolicall men were autors off all thinges doone in their time in euery singular congregacion Vnto that I saide the vvordes from Saint Marcke maie be taken rather exclusiuely to shut ovvte S. Marke he answereth that none off iudgement will graunte that where notwithstanding he that hath anie iudgement doth easely vnderstande that the wordes haue manie times that significacioÌ„ and that they are so here I am coÌ„tent it be tried by the other reasons propounded I alledged that S. Marck can not be autor off that distinction because he making those thinges diuers vvhich the holy Gost made one should make the storie he vvrote suspected He answereth yt ys certeine thes were no otherwise distinguished then the holy gost appointed them which I haue shewed how shameles yt ys Then that my collection is vngodly to imagine so off the gospell written by the Euangeliste As yff I did not in plaine wordes deteste all suspicion of the vntrwthe off that Gospell and therfore caste awaie his false surmise which might gyue occasion theroff He saith therby appeareth at the least that yt was auncient I denie not but yt is manifeste also that ther were other corruptions in some places of the churche as aunciente The Answ as his coustome is taketh his pleasure off me because vpon the wordes off Ierome this coustome vvas at Alexandria I gather that yt was not in other places As if yt were not manifeste that Ierome noteth where yt began and if it had beginning at Alexandria yt was there when yt was not in other churches If it had had further passage at that time Ierome should haue doone yt iniurie in coÌ„cealing yt For it would haue made much for the credite off that distinction Which I alledging in the next diuis the Ans saith nothing vnto Nether is there anie so rude an idiote which knowethe not that a notable or vnwonted thinge saide off one man place or time is spoken emphatically and excludeth all other But as the D. will not vnderstande a generall proposition vnles yt haue the signe all or euerie before yt so he will not vnderstande that any thinge is appropriat vnto another vnles yt haue thes wordes onely alone c. And it is cleare how intollerable the D. is in his insultations seing Ierome in saying that this coustome gat grounde by litle and lytle declareth the trwth of my collection And where he answereth to that I obiected off the confounding oftentimes off prieste and bishop that the bishop is a prieste but not contrariwise he first answereth not to the argumeÌ„t For this is not to be confounded when off two thinges one is verified of the other but thother can not returne and be verified of his fellow Secondly his answer is ouerthrowne by his exposition of the place of
consulship not in all pointes but onely in this that he should propound the matters c. as before Which appeareth in an other place and euen in this verie place when he saith yt is meete that althovvghe they be all off equall povver yet there should be one as yt vvere moderator And therfore if yow woulde haue made yowr archbishops according to Caluins measure he owght to haue no more preheminence before the simplest pastor then the Consull which spake had before his fellow Consull which helde his peace Wher he saith the prolocutor chosen for the inferior sort of clergie yet the Archbishop reteineth still his office yt shewethe that he is now but an idoll hauing put ouer the duty to other for which he is supposed to haue bene so necessarie But yt is manifest that the Prolocutor in the synode hathe all that preheminence which Peter had aboue the other Apostels and therfore which one pastor owght to haue aboue an other which is that I browght yt for The next I answere not Where I shew his vaine argument that one bishop shoulde be aboue an other because Paule an APostle was aboue Timothe an Euangelist he saith that yt houldethe because they differ not in the administring off the the worde and sacramentes but in gouernement Which is vntrew for they differed in both alike For as they differed from the Apostles in that they gouerned those onely churches ouer which they were set where the Apostles gouernement stretched vnto all churches so they could not administer the worde and sacramentes but where they were appointed where the Apostles might do yt in all places But for further confutation off this distinction I referre me to that before Where I shew his argument all one with this my Lord maior is aboue the Sherifes therfore one sherife is aboue an other he saith I should haue concluded that because my Lord Maior hath rule ouer the cytisens therfore the Apostels superioritie ouer an inferior degree off ministerie proueth that one in the same degre of ministerie may rule ouer an other Which is to ridiculous For if it were as it is not a good argument from ciuill gouernement vnto ecclesiasticall yet to saie that therfore one ecclesiasticall officer may beare rule ouer an other yea that one may beare rule ouer his fellowes off the same order becawse the magistrate beareth rule ouer priuate men cleaneth togither as goates dounge So that if there were any argument here yt ys that as my Lord maior ruleth ouer the cytisens so yt behouethe the pastor to rule ouer his flocke The next diuisiō is answered Wher he calledged Calu. that vppon that Paul willed Titus to appoint Elders saithe Titus was in autoritie and counsell aboue other Pastors and I opposed Calu. which sheweth that he did nothing in that behalfe vvithovvt the aduise off other pastors and consent off the churches he askethe whotly still for answere As if it were not answered especially when I shewed before that the superioritie that ministers can haue in suche meetinges is onely to propounde c. as is before declared Which Calu. do the expresly set forthe in the same place when he saith S. Paule commaunded him onely to be president or moderator in the election The two first sections how shamefullie they be said I leaue to the readers iudgement in the last against that I alledged owt off the Scoliaste that Paule would not haue one rule the whole I le and therfore not Titus is browght first an exposition gone abowte to be confirmed off him and Chrysostome which say that Paule committed vnto Titus Crete and to Timothie almoste all Asia As yf that might not well stand with that that Titus gouerned one citie alone for in that they had autoritie giuen them to appoint ministers in forme aforesaid in all that circuite vntill the churche there were fully established and a lawfull ministerie throwghly planted ▪ there charge in that respecte extended yt selfe to that whole circuite But when the countrey was deuided into seuerall churches and euery churche had a lawfull and complete ministery he charge before generall is now restrained vnto that one churche where Titus made his abode Euen as euerie off the 12. Princes and Aaron which deuided the land off Canaan had before partition a certein power off all which after lottes cast had onely to do with that which apperteined to them in seuerall A thowgh yf yt be graunted that Titus and Timothe continued that large gouernement during their abode there wherin I will not striue yet considering as hathe bene shewed they were Euangelistes and no Bishops nor Archbishops there can nothing grow to them hereby For as no man can haue gouernement ouer all the churches which the Apostels had but they that haue that speciall office so none can succede into the iurisdiction off Euangelistes but they onely which haue that extraordinarie ministerie And therfore Caluin in the place before cited off the D. saith there vvas not then suche equalitie c. but that one did rule ouer an other noting by the word then which the D. hathe vnfaithfully left owt that the gouernemēt which Titus had in Creta was for those times when ther were suche extraordinarie callinges Wher he saith in streightening Titus to one church I make him pastor which I donie let him learne that to haue charge in one church alone not a pastor vnles he be so tied that he can not departe withowt the churche lose his bonde Which neither Titus was nor is by any word affirmed off me Whether the rest be shamels accusations let the reader iudge The next althowghe vnworthy of answer being but bare affirmacions against my reasons is answered before As for that those wordes receiue no accusations c. must needes be vnderstanded of one which hathe other elders vnderneathe him and therfore not off euerie pastor yt argueth that the D. is spent For he knowethe that we hould that euery pastor had his elders assistan which hath and shall God willing appeare Besides that it argueth his ignorance off the state of the elder churches wher as hathe bene shewed bishops sat in iudgement off other bishops ād elders not vnderneath them That ther be not a hundreth seuerall preceptes in the three epistles to Timothe and Titus wheras in diuers verses there be sixe or seuen doth well become his bouldnes Against reason alledged owt off Augustine that the place owt off Epiphanius was of some false Epiphanius here is nothing but autoritie Howbeit not to striue for this before I come to answere yt is to be noted that this is Pigghius reason against the churche off God euen in the verie selfe same cause which we haue now in hād towching this sort of bishops For against the Waldenses firste and after against Wickleue which put no difference betwene a bishop and a priest Pigghius hath a treatise in his Hierarche wherin he pressethe them with
nedes be affirmed to apperteine vnto the elder neither doth Epiphanius answer the reason owt off S Paule that Timothe was ordeined by imposition off handes off the companie off elders Likewise that browght off a bishop aboue an elder because S. Paule vvilleth Timothe not to rebuke an elder to let goo other faultes as many as are wordes in the sentence yt is absurde that he referreth that vnto an elder by office which is spoken of an elder by yeares and referreth that to the publicke minister which is vnderstanded onely off a priuate membre off the churche as appeareth manifestly by the opposition off a yong man and after off the elder woman So I leaue to be estemed what good cause the D. hath to couer his face in that wheroff he so greatly vaunteth The next diuision is answered In the next I leaue it to the reader whether the D. order hath the heeles vpward which after endeuoure to shew the necessitie the causes yea the examples off a thinge setteth him selfe to proue that it was Althowgh if this be his trim order he hath kept it euill for Chrysostome browght for confirmacion off the first comethe after Ierome which is browght to beare vp his seconde That Ignatius bishop was but off one particular congregation onely I haue shewed and therfore the wordes ouer all pressed off the D. as they are off Pigghius from whence this was taken are vnderstanded of those within his particular churche Besides the kinde of speach may be easelier drawen vnto the whole worlde then off a diocese or prouince for the reason assigned in my former booke That the bishop owght to be aboue the elders which onelie gouerned and deacons is confessed yf he were aboue the teaching elders that was by custome whether good or bad let it be iudged off that said Howbeit that that be graunted yt maketh nothing to proue a bishop ouer a diocese muche lesse an Archbishop When the bishop in euerie church or to speake as the D. in euerie diocese was the Cheife aboue whom there coulde not by this Ignatius be any higher bishop in earthe I leaue yt to the readers iudgement how absurde the D. is who saith that Ignatius dothe not ouerthrow his Archishop for therby he affirmeth that albeit the bishop off the Diocese were the highest bishop that coulde be vpon earthe yet there might be an other higher then he Also how fonde he is in his reason that for as muche as an archbishop is a bishop therfore Ignatius allowing one allowethe the other When yt is manifest by his owne confession that Ignatius speaketh off one onely sort off bishops either of one particular church as the trwthe is or off one diocese as he imagineth So that his argument is Ignatius allowethe one sort off bishops therfore the Archbishop all one as if a man should say he hath a kinde off fishe in his moate therfore a whale fishe The D. detected in that Iustins president was neither bishop off diocese nor Archbishop off Prouince but of one congregation for excuse saith he browght the place to proue there might be superioritie ouer the ministers Where first his trim order that all my logicke and Rhetoricke is not able to moue is too pitifull for how childishe is yt after so long trauaile to proue a bishop ouer the ministers off a diocese and tharchbishop of a Prouince in the ende to endeuour to proue that ther may be superioritie as if any man would denie this that graunted the other and yt is to set the fondacion vpon the louer yet I would know off him what meanethe the word this wherby appeareth not onelie that he browght yt to proue superioritie but the superioritie either off a bishop ouer a whole diocese or an Archbishop ouer a Prouince considering that this is the superiority which he speake of before and im̄ediatelie after Secondly where I bothe by the vse of the scriptures and auncient writers shewed the word Brethren not taken for the gouernours but the people obserue how vainly he answerth that Iustine meant the ministers and deacons by brethren because he calleth the people after by the name off people As if the rest off the church were not called both in scripture ād other writers by diuerse names Thirdly how if it be graunted that Iustins presidēt had superioritie ouer the minister yet how fondly yt is concluded that yt is lawfull because yt was Then how his weapons fetched from Maister Beza haue alwaies their edge towarde him and his cause For he alledgeth him to proue that Iustins president did gouerne the reste and had the name off bishop which in the same place flatly condemneth that pollicie as is declared Lastly how by this answer he maketh euerie pastor off a congregacion to handle the gouernemen which before he tooke from him when he shutteth him vp in the administracion of the word and samentes only Iustines writinges compared as I compared them with the holie scripture are as I said a ditche I added the reason that ther was in them not a litle mudd off errors which the D. could not answer otherwise I acknowledge him both godlie and learned Maister Beza sought not the word president in Iustine but sheweth how Timothe did the office at Ephesus which Iustines president did which was meete considering he had a higher ministerie then any there So that althowgh Timothe aboue the degree off a bishop kept that presidentship continually during his abode yet there was no reason that one Pastor off the same degree with other should take that vpon him Yf he were the true Ignatius he should in dede be before Iustin but to let passe other exceptions withe M. Caluins sharpe censure off him yt is absurde to ascribe to Ignatius S Iohns scholer that vaine boaste off being able to expound the orders off Angells their varieties the distinctions and differēces betwene vertues powers Thrones c. That priest is no fit name for a minister off the gospell is towched after that the names proper to our S. Christ can be cōmunicated with man is absurd and before confuted where also the name off Prince a peace off Prince off Priestes is shewed vnfit fer the ministery That there may be one Archbishop ouer bishops as there is one bishop ouer pastors hathe no parte trw as hathe bene shewed onely let yt be noted that the reason here for the Archbishop is Hardinges for the Pope This argument browght before and after to proue our Archbishops iurisdiction that one had care of the whole Prouince here is pursued wherunto I answer here that care dothe not necessarily draw iurisdiction or rule ouer that cared for seing that there is no minister I might haue said also no magistrate yea no priuate membre which owght not to haue and shew forthe a care off all the churches which are in Christendome euery one according to the meanes which
shew one lettre that I euer wrote or spake that the place to the Ephes conteineth all thinges necessarie for the church then this that he writeth may haue place If not then he is vnworthy to receiue answer seing he hath bene gyuen to vnderstand how far we extend that place Therefore whether there were Publike churches Pulpits Schooles vniuersities in Christian congregations perteineth not to the question althowgh it hath partly and might further be shewed onely I gyue the reader warning that Iudg. â— off those saied to handle the pen whilest I gaue to much credit to translations was not so fitly alledged to proue vniuersities The three next diuis are idle repetitions before answered Where I shewed that one high priest vvas ordeined ouer the Ievves onely that he might represent our S. Christ cheif off the vvhole church the D. answereth he was also for policie and gouernement His reason our Sauiour Christ came not to take away ecclesiasticall policie â—s vaine as thowgh there could be no ecclesiasticall policie onles one minister were ruler ouer a whole nation After he citeth Caluin in the same faithe he is wont For his wordes no reason compelleth to extend that to the vvhole vvorld profitable in one nation are onely vnderstanded off that gouernement in Iury before our Sau. Christes coming which ys manifest in that he saith that example ovvght not to be follovved considering it vvas doon in respect that the high priest vvas a figure off our Sauiour Christ and the priesthood being translated that right is likevvise And after that example off the priestes gouernement ouer the whole nation vvas but for a time That the pressing off the example off the high priest amongest the Ievves dravveth a Pope I leaue to be considered off that before written especially seing the high priest was not onely gouernour off the Iewes when they were paâ—ed in the land off Canaan but euen then also when as it is knowen they were scattered thorowgh owt all natioÌ„s in the world For as S. Luke saith it to haue bene immediatly after the ascension off our Sau. Christ so was it many yeares before his coming into the world So that he which will frame an Archbishop by that example establisheth the Ecclesiasticall charge off one ouer those which were scattered thorowghowt all the corners off the earth It would be also obserued how here the D plaieth on both handes For when we reason sometime onely off the proportion off the law to the gospell other sometime off the perpetuall law off God we receiue answer that we are Iewish ennemies to the libertie of the church But where there is any thing vnder the law coming within a furlong off his cawse he gripeth it for gospellike and which owght to be folowed I see that M. Nowel thincketh a Metro poltane may be ouer a Christian prouince as the high priest was ouer the Iwes wherin I can be but sory that all the Godly learned are not off one mind As for Hyperius he seemeth to reason vpon a supposition that yf the example off the gouernement off the high priest vnder the law should be folowed which he before denied that then a man might conclude an Archbishop ouer a Prouince but not a Pope ouer the whole churche This to be his meaning I thinck the D. him selfe will accord me els let him tel me what to answer to him that saith that yt is not red in the scripture that euer any off the Apostels toke vnto him self autority or primacy ouer thother Apostels but that a most perfect equality is shewed to haue bene in all that Christ did prescribe them equall offices in all thinges that that maÌ„ner of dominion which was not in thappostles time owght not to haue bene admitted in the ages which followed Likewise what he will answer to him which condemneth as new found orders Archdeacons Archelders and vicares Wherof the 2. first haue as I haueshewed better testimonie of their auncientie then the Archbishop and are yf not off the same birth yet off the same kinde that he Where I shew the titles of cheif off the Synagoge of the SaÌ„ctuarie of the hovvs of god to make directly against him coÌ„sidering that particular churches are novv in steed off theÌ„ and therfore there ovvght to be such not in euery Prouince or dioces but in euery particular coÌ„gregation the D. as amazed speaketh he can not tell what First that the Iewes had particular Synagoges as we particular congregations and that I haue confessed that before As if I had any where denied it or had not euen here in effect affirmed it or it helped him for answer which is the ruine off his cause For their Synagoges being the same that our particular churches in euery one off them being not one but many princes the vrging off that example bringeth diuers cheif gouernours or archbishops in euery particular church Then he saith one Christian commen wealth is but one church which is vntrue For first althowgh the church be in a Christian commen wealth yet nether is the commen wealth the church nor the church the commen weaith as shall appeare Besides I haue shewed that the scripture off whose manner off speach the question is vseth not to call a Prouince or dioces a church but ether the whole vniuersall or els a particular congregation Thirdly if it were so yet the answer is insufficient For if the name off the howse off God were coÌ„men as well to a church in a Prouince as in a particular coÌ„gregatioÌ„ yet what right hath he to pull the ecclesiasticall priesthood more to his prouinciall then to our particular church He saith the superioritie amongest the priestes and Leuites is by the ciuill law of Moses Which declareth him rauished off all iudgement it being manifest that they were ether Ceremoniall or Ecclesiasticall lawes wherwith the Lord disposed of the degrees of the ministerie wherof the Ceremoniall being abolished and therfore the chieftie off one priest ouer all we willingly reteine the ecclesiasticall Where to that alledged off Princes off the families off Leuites I replied that the Lord vvoulde by those titles as by liuely pictures imprint in the Ivves vnderstanding the chieftie off our S. Christ he answereth that maketh nothing against their offices Yes for that those that would conclude therof one chief now amongest the ministers in a Prouince are therby put to silence Where he addeth so the estate off a Prince ouer a land should be abolished be is friuolous considering that that gouernement hath other staies off the ordinance off god Where that chieftie amongest the ministers hath nothing but that it was ceremoniall And if my answer like him not he shall haue the bishops as litle for his aduantage which saith The Prince of the families doth not signifie any gouernour or one endued vvith povver but onely the firste and best man off the companie He complaineth that the Bishop speaking off
before yt came into the church off the Christians yt vvas as diuers other corruptions taken off them by imitation whether a thirde and more higher cawse theroff were that the brauery of the pourpled vvhore of Rome might bothe easelier take her seate and faster houlde yt vvhilest other bishops vvere made somevvhat sutable vnto her vvhich she could not haue done if other bishops left in the simplicitie vvherin God had apointed them she had bene as an ovvle amoÌ„gest the reste of the birdes I say whether these three are amongest the causes off bringing in the bishops pompe into the churche I leaue to the readers iudgement Considering that the D. beside begging and dissembling the matter which I goo abowte to proue hathe nothing That Christians might aswel be thowght to haue folowed Maximinus in building churches as in sufficiently prouiding for the ministers ys to simple seing we deny hym not sufficient prouision But if he esteme nothing sufficient onles he be mainteined as a lord let him learn off S. Paul what is sufficient and so he shal I doubt not fall from his 1000. to a 100. vnto thes three causes off the bishoplike statelines I will heer ad the fourth worthy to be obserued M. Bucer shewing the incommodities which came by that the bishops vvere receiued to bear ciuill offices saith after they began to occupie the place off princes they chalenged also to them selues their pompe and brauery So let the reader iudg how trw yt ys that I said that our archbishops bishops c. besides the names haue almost nothing commenvvith those of elder times and hovv if the old bishops vvere aliue they vvould not knovv one annother For that they vvould thinke ours princes and ours vvoulde esteme them as hedge priÌ„estes What I allow off the oulde Canons and what I disalow althowgh he dissemble yet he knoweth better then he would I hauing at large declared yt in this Tractate The first diuis I oâ—â—it In the next to that the Apostle called the Corint to a moâ—â—rate estimacion of the ministers meane betvveen contempt and to much exalting them vpon occasion that the false Apostels were to much lifted vp he saith yt was a partial affection to wardes their teachers not in respect off any title which is friuolous for if it be denied generally that they shoulde not be so mounted then the way is stopped against titles and offices and other meanes whatsoeuer wherby that may grow Beside that the D. is afraied as appeareth by his answer to be browght vnto a moderation and meane betvvene contempt and excessiue estimacion Where I shew that as the false Apostels pompe in preaching lifting them vp aboue the faithfull ministers caused the faithful ministers to be contemned so the pompe of our bishops lifted vp aboue the rest off the pastors to be a ready vvay to bringe their mynisterie ovvt off credit and that as that gaue occasion to the Corinthes to saie I houlde off suche a teacher c. so this giueth occasion to say I vvil beleue my Lord Bishop or my lord Archbishop vvhatsoeuer our parson say for they be vvise men and learned I say to all this beside wandring and vnlikely slaunders there is not a word seing I trust it appearethe to all that we giue no occasion by any pompe that the people in magnifying off vs should condemne others The next diuision I leaue to the reader Where against the D. slaunder off the Admonitions intent to take away princes I shewed that his practise against vs is the same vvith the Pharisies against our Sauiour Christ vvhich being rubbed for their ambition accused him as no friend off Cesar He answerethe that we are not Christ which is ridiculous that the case is not like whereof let the reader iudge seing he is as they were honour pricked Whether our Archbishop dvvell as far asonder almost from the ciuil magistrate as Rome and Ierusalem let the reader iudge off that alledged likewise what a coÌ„ning stargaser the D. is which saw in the star off my forehead that the admonition intended the ouerthrow off the ciuill magistrate The nexte off the canon off Antioche Councel is answered but where I shew that that Canon is not like to be iustifiable considering that it sovvght falsely â—â—edite off the name off the apostels he answereth not Onles this be his answer that yt is the naturall Canon off the apostels And in deede his wordes so sound for thus he saithe That canon off the Apostels is repeated in this councel as diuers off the Nice be repeated off other councels Which how shamfully yt is spoken may appeare off that we haue before disputed off the antiquitie off the metropolitane How dangerously to the ouerthrow off our faithe whilest we are borne in hand that there be canons of the Apostels not coÌ„teined in the canonicall scripture al that haue iudgement may vnderstand and yt is in parte before declared I omit that yt is cleane contrary to his doctrine off the archbishop wherby he maketh him an officer changeable at the wil of the Prince For if that be thApostles Canon there is no ministery in the holde scripture which hathe better euidence for an vnchangeable perpetuitie then yt That M. Bucer is wholy for vs in this point I refer the reader to that before written The place alledged here would haue made litle for him if he had not kepte his custome For where Bucer speaketh off obedience to be gyuen by the bishops to the metropolitan he hath left owt these wordes after their maner By vvhich conning he may proue the Acthiopian afaire man because he hath white teeth For all see that M. Bucer by these wordes delaied the autoritie off the metropolitanship And if they were not plaine enowgh yet others in the same place are that the patriarches vvere set ouer the metropolitanes as they ouer the bisho â–ª but that nether could doe any thing saue onely admonish those ouer vvhoÌ„ they vvere set aÌ„d if they obeied not to complaine of them to the synod After he condemneth that the Patriarches toke vnto them the ordination off the bishops nigh them and by meanes therof by litle and litle gat some iurisdiction ouer those bishopes and their churches So appeareth that if there be any difference here touching these offices betwene vs and M. Bucer yt is onely that where we affirme yt good that the presidentship should be chosen at euery meeting as that which cometh neerer the apostels example and more safe against Tyranny M â–ª Bucer may seem to make yt a standing and continuall office set â—â— in one man For as towching his autority wherin the chief poinct off the controuersie lieth yt findeth as smal grace with M Bucer as with vs. Whatsoeuer is here is answered sauing the contrarietie assigned betwen this an Apostle vvas aboue an Euangelist and that there was chiefrie euen amongest the apostels in that one labored more and
described cccâ—xlix ccccliij Whether refer that the archbishop and bishop are nue ministeries ccccxxxviij Likewise that the first step to this kind off bishoprik began at Alexandria and not in Sion or Ierusalem and that it was after the Apostles times dxlviij Also the first step of preheminence to an archbishoprik ouer many bishops was but a litle before the Nicene Councel cccclxxxv That both this bishop and archbishop had their beginning by bare custome and not by the institution off God cccclxxxv dlxviij These two last pointes being expreslie shewed off the bishops and archbishops may be easely vnderstanded to be true in the Archdeacons and deanes by that dj dxxxvj diiij Yt ys further shewed off the archbishop that hâ— was not in steed of Archflamins instituted by S. Peter as 〈◊〉 pretended cccclxix Where is shewed that there were no Arâ—â—â—lamins vnder the Romain Empire cccclxxj not in England especially in the time supposed cccclxxij We refuse them also for that they exercise dominion Forbidden precisely vnto Ecclesiasticall persons 20. Mat. and 1 â–ª Pet. 5. ccccxxj ccccxxxj Declared in the example off S. Peter which had no autoritie giuen him aboue the rest off the Apostles but was in such respect equall dcvij Here are confuted the endes off instituting this autoritie Whereoff one is pretended to assemble rhe Synodes and to propound the matters dcxij dlxxxij Wherto belongeth that of those otherwise equall it is meet to auoid confusion that one by choise of the rest should rule the action and that yt is not meet that this should be perpetuall ccccxxij Which is conâ—â—â—ed by the example off S. Peter chosen therto by the Apostles and not perpetually dcxcvij made plaine by the examples off the elder and french churches now dxiâ—x The other pretended cause is to remedie contentions ccccxlvâ—ij â–ª dxlix dl dlxxiâ—ij dlxxxij Here also is shewed that he is the cause off contention dlxxix Which being shewed in the bishop and archbishop perteineth in part also to the archdeacon and deane Further against this dominion serueth that they are fellow seruantes fellow brethren in office ccccxx viij dxlv Also for that order and degrees stand withowt them ccccxxvij dcij This ys further declared by comparison of the elder archbishops and bishops with ours dxciiij dcxliiij Namely of Cyprians dxlvj and Ieroms dlxviij Likewise of the elder Archdeacons with ours dij And deanes with ours diiij That the Nicene Councell is far from mainteining the autoritie off our metropolitan dlxij So are the Councels off Antioch and Arles dlxv That Epiphanius Archbishop stood not in autoritie but in excellency off giftes dlx Here vpon we condemn as in all Ecclesiasticall ministers so in these foure al loftie titles as those which are annexed to dominion Wherunto perteineth that names are not alwaies indiffereÌ„t 408 And first the giuing high titles of ciuil honour as those which put a differeÌ„ â—â— betwene the ciuil aÌ„d ecclesiast officer ccccvj ccccxxiij As forbid â–ª 〈◊〉 precisely 22. Luk. cccciiij namely that the bishop Archbishops â—nd by the same reason deanes ought not to be called lordes hauing regard to the vse of our contrey ccccvij dclv Also that the title off Prince part off the Archbishops and Archdeacons name breaketh vpon the possession off the ciuil magistrate ccccvij Secondly in Ecclesiasticall titles we denie vnto them to be called heades off the churches Where is shewed first that that title agreeth vnto no simple creature The causes wheroff are ccccxij The absurdities which folow the giuing off it to any other then to our San. Christ ccccxj The approbation off writers nue and ould that he is onely head ccccxiij The same shewed off the name off Archbishop cccix Hetherto belongeth that it was not so sone in the west partes as in the East ccccxciiij That yt is not shewed to haue bene giuen to any but with condemning off yt in any alowed writer vntill about 380. yeares ccccxcv Wherto perteineth that nue writers gyuing yt to ministers of elder times are shewed to haue doen it according to the times wherin not whereoff they wrote cccclxxxj ccccxcv Likewise that the name metropolitan is not off the same value with archbishop cccclxxxvij And that it is not shewed to haue bene before the Councell off Nice ccccxciiij Also that the Councels off Carthage houlden about ccl and 400. yeares doe forbid this name ccccxcviij Finally hether perteineth that off the counterfait canons off the Nicene Councell handled cccclxxxviij And the counterfait book off Ambrose which mentioneth the archbishop ccccxcj Likewise the name of Arch deacon is not shewed vntill about 400. yeares page 502. Nor off the deane vntill about the same time page diiij Furthermore vpon this that dominion is forbidden them is also forbiddeÌ„ their other pomp off lije Wherof vnto the three causes assigned in my former book xcviij Is added the fourth â—â—0 off this book This ys shewed by comparison off the elder bishops with ours in their apparel houses houshould stuf fare traine off men dcxlxij c. Further that the most part off the riches wherwith this pomp is mainteined is the commen treasure off the church for mainteinance off the miâ—sters which want off the poore and off the vniuersities and th … in this point they haue succeded vnto those which got the 〈◊〉 sacriledge dcxlix Further we refuse the archbishop and archdeacon for that they haue larger charges then they are or can be sufficient for Hetherto perteineth that all the ordinary ministers owght to be appointed to a place and that that place is a particular congregacion no diocese nor prouince ccxcvj ccclx Where the D. corruption drawen from the Papistes is confuted Hether also perteineth that Denis did not deuide parishes Prouinces and dioceses ccclviij Hether also perteineth that by the word off God there may and owght if the case require be moe bishops in one particular congregation â—â—n one dxxvij The traces theroff in the church long after the Apostles time page dxxviij dlâ—â— Likewise that there owght by the word off God to be in euery particular congregation one bishop dxv Hether refer the causes off the falling away of this order which were naught dxx Likewise that care ouer churches inferreth not necessarily charge ouer them dcxxij That the iurisdiction they had owt off their particuler churches was nothing but a reuerend estimation page dxxxij Hetherto perteineth the vse off the church long after the Apostels times ccc Also that the elder bishops were called bishops off parishes cccclxxvâ—ij The examples off Demetrius dxlij off Cyprians bishop aâ—most through the whole 3. chapter off the last Tra. off Cornelius 540. 556. of Dionysius Alexandrinus 558 Gregorie 5â—9 Peter Alexandrinus â—60 Athanasius 56â— Ambrose 492. Al which alledged by the D. as bishops off prouinces were ether of one particular church or off the churches in one onely ciâ—â—e or at the least had far les compas by the twentith part then our bishops This
is vnmeet to … own mynisters their Care chism ccclxiiij Hether belongeth the treatise off reaâ—ing the holy scriptures where fyrst ys shewed the vse of reading them in the church ccclxxv That reading off them is not able ordinarily to hould the people from pining ccclxiij Nether can reading of praiers or admynistration off the Sacramentes withowt preaching ccclxiiij That simple readers ordeined for pastors can not properly be called watchmen ccclxxvj That reading ys not preaching ccclxxxvij Against the phrenefie that bare reading ys better then preaching clxxxv That bare reading ys not so good as preaching ccclxxiiij not to the learned them selues ccclxxxiiij much les reading of the homilies cccxciij Which are not meet to be red in the churche openly cccxcij As are not also the Apoctypha ccxcviij especially considering their corruptions page cccc Hether perteineth the iudgement off the churches off vnlearned ministers ccclxiiij The causes off the vnlearned mynistery with vs ccclxiij ccclxv ccclxxj Ordination ORdination doth not belong to the bishop alone cclxxiiij Against the Bishop commaunding to receiue the holie goste in ordeining ccxcij Residence IN the residence off the ministers that off the Pastor is particularly handled 4. Tract page cccxxx Where our reasons are mainteined That it is the institution off God in the ould Test cccxlij In the nue cccxliiij That the calling of the church which ys also the lordes ys to that place onely cccxxxij That he owght to be resideÌ„t that therby greater loue might be wrought cccxiv That hauing better knowledg off the estate off his flock he may better doe all dueties towardes them cccxxxix That with seing the blessing off God he might be stirred to further diligence cccxlv That his flock hauing more famyliaryty might haue easier acces ibid. That he might be 〈◊〉 â—â—mple of life cccxliij Proued also by … oÌ„tinual duty off preaching Whether perteineth that treatise wherein ys shewed that yt ys conuenient yt should alwaies god before the administring of the holie Sacramentes cccxlviij Hether may be referred the comparison of the diligence of the elder Bishops in preaching dcxlvij Whether also refer the vnlawfull power of the bishop towching licences to preach wherby yt is in his will whether he will gyue the pastor leaue to preach or no coÌ„sidering that it is a necessarie dutie of the pastor and the principall cause off his residence cccxlj That he must admonish both the wicked and the godly strengthen both the weak and the strong cccxlj Comfort in temptation cccxlvij Therfore that the bare reading off the scripture is no sufficient supplie in his absence cccxliij Nether his care cccxxxij That the conscience off the pastor and contentement of the people ys no good rule off doing these duties cccxxx Nether belongeth that the pastor owght not to goe here and there to preache where he thincketh good Where ys shewed that God doeth not alwaies call to places where one may doe most good no not in the extraordinary callings muche les in the ordinary cccxxxvj That this going about to preache as yt ys assigned of the Answerer taketh away the difference betwene the pastors calling and the extraordinary functions cccxxxij That those extraordinary callinges doe not make against the pastors residence as yt is assigned off vs cccxxxj cccxxxix That they rather make for yt cccxxxij cccxxxiij cccxxxv That ordinarie deputies are ouerthrown by this residence cccliiij whether may be referred that dlxxxvj of deputies Likewise pluralities of benefices ccclvj Hether refer that absence for some causes and some conditions doe not ouerthrow resideÌ„ce cccliij This ys also proued by comparison of shepardes and watchmen cccxxxvj Where ys shewed how shamefully the answerer abuseth the doctrine off Gods holy election and of final perseuerance of those whiche are once called cccxxxviij Also that by his answer the pastor after he hath admonished them need neuer come to them nor yet leaue any deputie cccxli Likewise off the eie and soule cccxlvij 〈◊〉 yt as ys precious a worke to kepe those gotten as to get otheâ—â—â—ich be in ignorance and more agreable vnto the pastors of … e. The autoritie off Councels and fathers cccxxxiiij cccliiij Ecclesiasticall correction A part off that Ecclesiasticall discipline which standeth in corrections is commaunded is Math. 66. To note onely the errors corruptioÌ„s and shameful falsifyinges of the D. in suche sort as he hath pretended in my book were to make a new book But because there is much void paper I wil gyue the reader an assay onely of those conteined in the treatises which I haÌ„dle in this book And those shal be not off the capital matters betwene vs but off such as are browght to vnderset them quoted according to his own book whereby yt shal appeare that for the defence off this cause he troubleth heauen yt self and in earth ouerthroweth both estates Ciuil and Ecclesiasticall THe vvhole lavv of god generally is abrogated pa. 121. li. 39. The scripture speaketh not one vvord off preaching or baptizing priuately or openly page 89. line 6. The scripture hath not commaunded nether can yt be by necessary collection theroff gathered vvhether vve should receiue the communion clothed or naked page 24. line 21. The scripture hath appointed no discipline for the correcting off suche as shall contemn the hearing off the vvord and coÌ„mon praier page 88 line 47. He matcheth the iudiciall lavves off god gyuen vnto the Ivves vvith the Turckes lavves page 149 line 32. HE alovveth th 〈◊〉 sentence off Cyrill vvhich condemneth the iustice off g … … ishing those by aeternall death vvhich suffered corporâ—â—â—â—ath vnder the lavv page 149. line 48. He matcheth the â—ouâ—â—shing off saithe by consideration off the creatures vvith popishe imagety page 571. line 2. TO maintein the sole election off the bishop he vvould haue the free elections off magistrates in cities and Borovvgh Tovvnes taken avvay page 171. line 49. VVherby he vvill haue the forme of gouernement off the common vvealth framed vnto the form off the church vvheroff notvvithstanding and that most vntrvvly he accuseth me Likevvise that vnder the gospell there is no punishment off the body laid vpon a transgressor but that if he repent so that he may seem vvorthy to haue the punishement vvithdravvn he may finde forgiuenes page 150. line 9. No man vvhat crime soeuer he hath committed is to be secluded from any lavvful vocation if he repeÌ„t And by vocation he meaneth publike office page 146. line 23. The externall gouernement off the church vnder a Christian magistrate must be according to the kinde and form off gouernement vsed in the common vvealth pa. 389. li. 5. vvhich beside the absurditie vtterly ouerthrovveth the liberty vvhich him self pretendeth that the church hath in disposing off yt In the Apostels times yt vvas permitted to all men to preache the vvord off God page 191. li. 16. Beside Pastors there are novv vvith vs Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes page 229. line 6. ALthovvgh there vvere a sufficient nomber off able men to supply the places of the reading ministers yet the reading ministers ovvght to kepe their places still page 485. lin 5. The vvord ys as effectual red as preached Page 569. lin 23. To those vvhich vnderstand the scriptures they are as vvhot and lightsom red as preached page 573. li. 34. publike reading in the church is as solemâ—â— matter as Catechising the youth page 425. lin 43. Yt may be that some men be more aedified 〈◊〉 simple reading off the scriptures â–ª then by sermons paâ—â— â—80 li. 30. To that I say that nether homilies nor Apocrypha are to be compared ether in goodnes vvithin them selues or fruict to the hearers vvith the scripture or reading thereof he ansvvereth that that maketh against sermons as vvel as against homilies and rather against sermons then against them Page 717 li. 52. VVherby he affirmeth that homilies are both better in them selues and more fruiteful to the hearers then sermons
her so manie botches hath she which doo not onely staine her bewtie but put her in hazarde off her liffe And if Sainte Paule for one vnclean person thowght that all the Corinthians had good cause of mourning ryuers off teares in euery mans heade are not sufficient for vs to bewaile the estate vvhich Maister D. telleth vs wee be in which by his saying haue fewe sober fewe chaste c. I leaue to the reader how euill the three places off Sainte Mathew are patched vpp together and how there is neuer a one off them vvhich proueth that he taketh in hande that there be in the churche open offenders which can not be rooted owte I giue vvarning onely to the simple reader that the A. beinge deceiued in interpretation off the parable off the sower doo not also deceiue him For there is nothinge les ment then that where one hearethe the worde profitably three doo the contrarie vvhich is bothe courious and vncomfortable onely he sheweth that off fowre kindes off hearers one onely receiueth fruict but off the nomber off those which heare fruictfully or otherwise not a worde And it maie be for anie thinge our Sauiour Christe setteth downe that in some places that one sorte of men vvhich heare vvith fruict are moe in nomber then all the other three vvhich heare vvithout fruict Yf wee shoulde saie that there is no church vvhere suche faultes be or that for suche faultes we shoulde make a departure from the church thes charges off Anabaptistrie vvhich sounde so often and so full in your mouthâ— mighte haue place But that it is an Anabapâ—isticâ—l cauil to saie that the multitude and swarme off knowen and open faultes argue wante off good gouernment and wholsome discipline in the churche yow are neuer able to shewe nether yowr selfe by argumeÌ„t nor owte of Maister Bull. or any other godly writer Shall there be no ende off this vnfaithful dealing Where in a syllable ys yt saide that the gospell can not be syncerely preached where great corruption off manners dooth appeare yet whilest yow confute this Yow vvoulde make men belieue that vvee affirme yt When I saie there be no knowen drunkardes or vvhoremongers in the churche I speake off that vvhich shoulde be vnto vvhich meaning the tenure off my disputacion would haue led yow if yow had bene willinge to follow For yow opposinge that for a bar vnto the peoples election th effecte off my answer was that yt is not meete to take aduantage off this that there be many suche dronkardes and vvhore mongers seinge they bothe maie and owghte either be browght to repentance and so are none suche as they were or thruste owte of the churche aÌ„d so not hinder the election This my meaning was cleare and the manÌ„er of speache if it had beene simply coÌ„sidered withowt circuÌ„stances restraining to this meaning is such as the scripture doth admit As when Paul saithe that the churchs of God haue no coustome to coÌ„tende he setteth forth not that which alwaies cometh to pas but what owghte to be alwaies For it may be that coÌ„tention may coÌ„tinew in a church many yeres and yet it not cease to be the churche of god The prosperite of the Gospell sheilded by authoritie of the Christian magistrate draweth by no necessitie vvith it suche aboundance of vvicked as yow suppose for althowghe hypocrisie may be more then vnder persequution yet knowen vvickednes of whoredome dronkennes c. may be easilier purged out off the church vnder a Christian magistrate So that the swarme off suche vvickednes vnder the Christian magistate more then vvhen there vvas none is not the faulte off the time but off the gouerners off churche or commen vvealth or bothe As for hypocrites I haue shewed that there is not so great daunger in them consideringe that their owteward doinges are the same vvith the children off God and the difference is onely in the harte Which althowghe yow denie yet my reason drawne of the nature off an hypocrite yow doo quite passe by That vvhich yow call the prosperitie mighte vvell be called the crosse and vvhip of the gospell yf it drewe suche a taile off synne as yow suppose For if vnder a Christian Magistrate either alwaies or for the moste parte not onely the nomber off hypocrites but of barefaced aÌ„d knoweÌ„ wicked shoulde be multiplied and not that onely but the good them selues shoulde wax worse that time mighte peraduenture after a sorte be called the prosperitie of those which professe the gospel but how the gospell maie be saide theÌ„ to prosper which is so manie waies plucked downe I can not vnderstaÌ„d And this is cleane coÌ„trarie to the fruictes of peace which the scripture declareth The Prophet as soone as he had spokeÌ„ of peace vvhich shoulde be published amoÌ„gest the Iewes addeth that Iuda shoulde then kepe her solemne feastes performe her vovves because the vvicked enemie off the churche vvas cut off Wherby he doothe not onely shewe that the ende off the peace of the church is to serue god more wholy then before but also that the peace gaue them more commoditie off seruinge off God then they coulde haue in time of persequution And if yow replie that so it shoulde be but it is not the answer is if it be not so yt is throwghe the greate and vnexcusable faulte off all and gouernoures especiallie vvhich hauinge moe meanes to intertaine all godlines suffer it to goe to vvracke But that peace off it selfe is an aide to godlie increase and confirmacion off the church yt is manifeste by that all the churches in Iurie Galile and Samaria beinge in peace vvere edified and vvalking in the feare off God vvere multiplied Now if they in the time off peace multiplied hauinge no further aide of the magistrate then that he hurte them not vvhat condemnatioÌ„ shall yt be if our churches vvhich haue assistance off the magistrate cannot vpholde them in that feare off God but they muste fall into suche riote as the A. supposeth And if multiplying off open wickednes and decrease of former godlines vvere so generall and so incident to the peace off the gospell as yow pretende there is no cause vvhy vvee shoulde praie so earnestly and often for it nai rather there shoulde be good cause off praying againste it For when it is giueÌ„ vs of God partlie for our ease and especially for the glorie of God in encrease of all vertue the cheife parte vvhich is the glorie off God beinge by yow shutte owte there is no cause vvhy vve shoulde praie for the other Yowr reason of hauinge a better fealinge in the time off persequution then in the peace of the gospell is very insufficieÌ„te especially to that yow vse it vnto off prouinge greater plentithe off knowledge in time off persequution then in peace considering that those wicked which neuer were in persequution nor haue that spirite vvhich is often times sharpened and quickedned by persequution knowe
and high priestes maketh mention off a band off men yt may appeare that as the seruantes and ministers belonged vnto the high Priestes and Scribes so the band belonged vnto those Capitaines off the temple and that they were there as those which had the charge off the band The same may yet appeare further by that where he laying hould off certein off the Apostles put them in prison after they came owt they confirmed them selues against their threates by that the fame thing was happened vnto them which was propheceyed of by Dauid and wheroff our Sauiour had experience in that both Iewes and Gentils and both powers cyuill and ecclesiasticall rose vp against him Wherby it is cleare they had regard to the owtrage which they suffred both off the Priestes and Scribes Iewes and of the Capitain off the temple a Gentill As for the cheif of the Sinagoge they are the same which be called Elders and Ancients off the church in reformed churches wheroff in euery Synagoge and assemblie off the Iewes there was some nombre as shall in place appeare called cheif not for that they had ouer the mynisters but becawse they had the gouernement off the people Whether the Seniors off the people were before the restoring off the captiuitie of Babylon shall appeare in place not to be much materiall Yt is a certein reason which is drawen from the figures to the thinges figured in this sort for if they were not like vnto them they shadow forth they should be no figures I apply not particularly the partes of the Arck to the partes of the church but compare generally the building off the one with the other Which point also S. Stephen and the Apostle to the Hebrues doo likewise presse Therfore thalledging off Caluin against thapplication off euery part thereof vnto the church is ydle The exceptions are to small pourpose For when I ask vvhat I deny not but some thinges might haue bene left for if he had would he might haue knowen that as the Lord aduanced his glory towardes his church and approched vnto men by knowledge of him selff so he did more precisely and particularly set forth all thinges perteining to the church and gouernement therof and that therfore vnder the gospell wherin he hath opened the threasures of knowledge yt must follow that he left thinges more cleare and certein then before Yet I will towch the vanitie off his exceptions For pinnes and nailes I would ask him how he can make a cofer without them especially for the water And therfore if he had prepared bordes c. and not set them together I thinck he had not obeied the voice of god and it is asmuch as if he should say that he was not bidden to take a nedle into his hande which is bidden to sew Whether the windowes were off glasse or Christall made not to pourpose so that they gaue a cleare light which the word Moses vseth signified it was enough Howsoeuer yow were misled by certein expositours the couer mentioned Gen. 8. is cmmaunded in the making off the Ark where the Lord also prescribeth yt should be a cubit aboue the Ark very fit to shut the waters that they should not fall continually vpon the Ark. The ouerseer and maister off this work coulde be no other then Noa at whose prescript yt was to be doon and which was to answer if any thing had bene doon otherwise then the commaundement The Rauen and doue sent forth were not thinges belonging to the building off the Ark and yet as meat and drink they are commaunded him forsomuch as they perteined to preseruation off his life which the Lord had gyuen him in charge That out of Pellicane and againe and againe out off Caluin are such as graunted conclude not against this cawse That the learned writers say God charged the Iewes with ceremonies of his owne that they should haue no leysure to vse any other they neuer vse it to proue that there is more libertie to the churche now then in times past to deuise any thing but it is their buckler which they hold owt against the Papistes who by example of that church would lode this now with such a multitude off ceremonies Therfore hē doth not in this allegorie follow their autoritie but rather clean contrary walketh herin in the Papistes steppes Which where they are pressed by this so diligent prescript off all thinges by the word of God in the ould people answere as the D. that that was doon for the rudenes off that people and because they were but children and that it were iniurie to the church off Christ to shut her vp so short as that was Where he cōcludeth of them that there was onely expressed what should be doon in the worship off God and not in externall policie first there be no such wordes wheruppon he may pull in that and not in the external policie And in deed it is not to distinguish but to pull in peeces for what whorship off God can there be in the assemblies of Christiā mē withowt the ministerie of the word withowt externall policie withowt administration of Sacramentes without praying openly and with owtward sound all vvhich are externall When Caluin calleth yt spirituall worship his meaning is nothingles then to oppose spirituall to all externall doon vvith mouth and other partee of the body but he calleth it spirituall by comparison off the worship of God vnder the law which consisted in corporall washinges cleansinges apparell c. and this is that which ether abuseth him or wherwith he would abuse other And although no singular partes off the Tabernacle or Temple themselues should set forth vnto vs the externall policie of the churches yet whē not onely they be described but yt is prescribed how many kinde of officers there should be and what euery one should doo that might suffise to proue that if he will needes separate the worship off God from thexternall policie yet as the Lord set forth the one so he left nothing vndescribed in the other Towching the alteration made by Salomon and Dauid in sorting the Ministers off the Temple and other thinges an other of the Papistes reasons to proue that they may ordein thinges beside the prescript off the word yt is answered in the same chap. the Ans alledgeth where yt is saied that all that was doon by commaundement of god And in an other place is set forth that those were instituted by commaundement of Dauid which had commaundement off God browght by the handes off Gad the seer and of Nathan the Prophet But seing the Ans vvill not accord vvith me in this point of appointing thinges vnder the law let him at least beare him self speak in his former booke God in the ould law prescribed vnto his people perfect and absolute lawes not onely morall and iudiciall but ceremoniall nether was there the least thing to be doon in the church omitted in the law Let him shew
the bishop off the dioces and the archbishop off the Prouince yt must follow that in Cyprians tyme there were no pastors off particular churches For one pastor and one priest or Bishop being all one in Cyprians language there can be no moe off the one then off the other Last off all it may appeare by the councell of Cathage in Cyprians time that there were diuers Bishops off villages and small townes For off the number off Bishops there assembled the names off their townes wheroff they were bishops being there set downe are scarce fowre or fiue that are to be found as I thinck in any Cosmographer which reckeneth vp the principall cyties and townes off Africk and namely there is expresse mencion off one Ianuarius bishop off a village called Cesars village Thus I trust yt ys cleare that by one church one priest nether an archbishop of a Prouince nor bishop off a dioces but onely a minister or bishop off one particular congregacion is signified Thaccusacions off passing forgerie c. deserue no answer I haue no where reasoned that one should not be rightly chosen bishop if any be absent that haue interest in thelection my reason is that forsomuch as all the people off Cyprians Bishop was by the Ecclesiasticall discipline appointed to be present at his choise and by no good order off discipline the whole dioces or Prouince could be so appointed therfore the whole people off Cyprians Bishop was nether the people off a dioces nor Prouince And where yow haue to shew the vanitie of my assertion translated almost half a side let the reader consider to what pourpose For where he noteth that Cornelius was made bishop by testimonie of his fellow bishops thorowghowt all the world I can not tell for what cawse he should note it Onles yt be that because the bishops thorowghowt the world testified their agreement by letters vnto his election occasioned therto for that Nouatus denied it to be lawfull therfore it is not vnlike that the people of a whole dioces or prouince were present in proper person at the choise off the Bishop and archbishop And if he ment that he is far short of his reckening nether is it made vp by his third note which I thinck tendeth to the same end For where it seemeth that by thes wordes and good men he would haue it thowght there were other people beside the cytisens off Rome at Cornelius election the wordes are of auncient priests ▪ and good men in the colledge referring the word colledge to good men as wel as to priestes So that by good men he ether meaneth those aunciēt priestes or some other ecclesiasticall companie where the Answ restreining colledge vnto the Priestes onely would haue his reader thinck that the people off the Prouince were gathered thether to chuse Cornelius archbishop But this is a wonderfull change that he which before esteemed it inconuenient that a seuerall congregacion should◠meet to chuse their pastor is now browght into such streightes that he seeketh to make the whole dioces or Prouince assemble for choise off their pastor His other note that Cornelius passed thorowgh all ecclesiasticall offices c. vnto the bishoprick is idly put Whether a preacher was the same with a bishop belongeth to an other question and is altogether owt of season here For althowgh an Elder which ruled onely were inferior vnto a bishop yet therby followeth not that an Elder which preached was so Where he saith I falsefie Cyprian and that yt is too great boldnes to say Priuatus was condemned by 90. Bishops of one Prouince the truth is Cyprian saith not they were off one Prouince But forsomuch as Priuatus was off the same Prouince with Cyprian and controuersies rising in euery Prouince were for the moste part voided by bishops of the same onles a generall Councell can be shewed a Prouinciall is presumed beside that it is vnlike that Cyprian to then tent he might draw Priuatus into greater hatred would haue omitted that circumstance off Generall Councell if it had bene And where he asketh what if there were so manie bishops in one Prouince whether yt he cōciuded therof that euery seuerall congregacion had her bishop I answer that if there were 90. Bishops in one Prouince off Afrike and that were obserued then which ether the moste commen practise off all times hathe tawght or which was ordeined after ward in the Councells off Afrike that the Bishops off euerie Prouince being parted into twoo or three companies owte off euerie off them certein should be sente in the name off the reste wherby a greater nomber remained at home then came to the councel and that be also remembred that there were diuers places where there were Nouatian Bishops and further that the moste parte of townes and cyties being heathen and Idolatrous had no bishops at all as yt was in those daies Ad hereunto that in Stephen Bishop off Romes time which liued in the same time with Cyprian there vvere innumerable catholicke bishops Lastly in those times of persequutions the nomber off them which professed the Gospell in one towne being for the moste parte sofewe that fowre or fyue of the nexte townes were scarce sufficient to make a competent assembly hable to mainteine the ministrie I saie all thes thinges considered and bound vp together I thinke yt will appeare vnto the indifferente reader that euery congregaciō where the word of God vvas preached and sacramētes administred had a seuerall bishop For if they had bene such bishops as ours althowgh the whole world had bene Christian a litle Arithmetick would haue serued to count them Where he saith the Patriarche off Antioche had 160. Bishoprickes vndernethe him yf all those were in one onely Prouince I am glad to heare of it If by a Prouince he meane the fourthe parte of the worlde the Patriarche hauing then gotten vnder his gripes so manie metropolitaneships yt was no meruaile althowghe the bishops vndernethe him drowned as many bishoprickes Besides that it is ridiculous to alledge this exāple which was long after against thestate of Cyprians Bishop Where he saith by keping back the place off Cyprian I gyue suspicion off forgerie I know not how I could haue giuen him more particular knowledge of it then in telling him that yt was in the same Epistle owte off which both he alledged his sentence and I my answer First I requiring autoritie to proue that by the worde churche ys vnderstanded a Prouince he answereth all learned writers so expound yt He dealeth but hardly vvhich hauing al will not vouchesafe to shewe one for as for those which he makethe shewe of afterwarde yt shall appeare how litle they serue his pourpose His nexte answer is that it is no vnacustomed thing to call the churche throwghe a prouince by name of the metrapolitane seate of the prouince If this were accoustomed and in those times wherin Cornelius and Cyprian lyued for
otherwise yt is nothing why doth he let his cause fall for wante of shewing yt For where he saithe he hathe shewed yt before there is no word founding that waies And Eusebius saying that he did fulfill the office off a Bishop in the cytie of Rome will not suffer the D. to lurk in that corner onles paraduenture he will say the church in the cytie off Rome was spred thorowgh the whole Prouince And when Ruffine sheweth that the Bishop of Rome about a hundred and fiftie yeares after at what time the Bishops had spred the winges of their dominion had but the churches in the suburbs and round about Rome is it a like thing that Cornelius had rule off all churches of Italy For althowgh the coustome whiche the Nicene Councell speaketh of should haue bene euen from Cornelius tyme yet yt is cleare that Cornelius had not gouernement off the churches off all Italy but onely of those in the suburbs of Rome For answer vnto thes bare and bold sayinges ▪ I refer my self partly to that before spoken that thes vvordes must be vnderstanded nether off Prouince nor dioces but onely of particular assemblies partly to that which followeth After I saying that forsomuch as Cornelius saied to haue banished one ovvt of his church could not banish him ovvt of the Prouince therfore church ād Prouīce be diuers he answereth thowgh he could not banish him owt off the prouince yet he might excōmunicate him frō the cōgregatiō thorowghowt the Prouince wherin beside that he still presupposeth an archbishop which is in cōtrouersie whilest he gyueth Cornelius power to excommunicate thorowgh the whole Prouince he is also deceiued that thincketh by thes wordes is ment that Cornelius did excommunicate Felinus For he was excommunicated before by the Bishops off Africk so that Cornelius had not to doo to excommunicate him Where for confirmacion of his answere he asketh whether he forcibly shut him owt of the locall church of Rome I answer that if he had remembred that there were then doorekepers to withstand those that cut from the church would enter in he should not haue thought it so straunge a thing that Heretikes vvere shut forth from the locall church especially seing he seemeth to haue allowed dorekepers as officers necessarie for those times And althowgh it were permitted vnto heretikes by Cornelius and his fellowes to enter into the locall church yet he might haue considered that when they offered them selues vnto the lordes table Cornelius with his assistance owght to see them remoued Seing therfore this not suffring of Felicissimus to enter into the church is no excommunication as the D. saith and carieth necessarily with yt that which Cornelius coulde not doo throwghe the Prouince but onely in place where he was present yt muste folow that by the worde churche where this was doone a particular place muste be vnderstanded and not as is supposed ether diocese or Prouince Where I shewed that forasmuche as by churche is mente the place vvhere the poenitents confessed their faultes that being nether diocese nor Prouince but a particular congregation the word church also must note a particular congregation the D. answereth that forsomuch as Nouatus denied forgiuenes vnto the fallen the meaning off Cyprian is nothing els but that Nouatus did not receiue thē into the generall and catholike church off Christ Wherin he hath cleane ouerturned the meaning off Cyprian which is not to shewe as he saith that Nouatus woulde not suffer those that had fallen to be receiued into the lap of the church which thinge was notoriously knowen of it selfe but to shew what were the impieties vvhich waited vppon that heresie amongest which he placeth thys that therby publicke confession off faultes to be made in euery particuler congregacion a singular exercise off pietie and true worship of God was quite taken awaie And wherfore in translating my wordes to no pourpose nor to no aduantage off his hath he passed by so slyly those wordes the threshoulde off the church For if by confession of faultes in the churche Cyprian meane the generall and catholike churche off Christe I would gladly know off hym whether the catholike churche off Christ haue a threshould and if it haue where he will assigne it Laste off all where as owte of thes wordes off Cyprian they dare nor approche the threshould off the churche but vvander abroade in the Prouince I conclude that the worde churche can not be taken for the Prouince being opposed vnto yt he answereth that Cyprian dothe oppose there the churche vnto heretikes and not vnto a Prouince This is straunge that by a churche Cyprian muste meane a Prouince and by the worde Prouince he must not meane a Prouince and in saying they roued abovvte the Prouince to deceiue and spoile the brethren yt is cleare that by Prouince are not vnderstāded the heretikes in the Prouince for brethrē be not heretikes Where he would gyue to vnderstande that the Prouince yf yt be Christened being the churche can not be opposed vnto the churche in deede yf by opposed were mē te contrarie he had saide truly but when by opposed or set againste he coulde not be ignorant but I mente that which was diuers he might haue knowne that as a Christian diocese maye be opposed vnto a Christian Prouince so a particular Christian churche maye be opposed vnto ether off bothe I would yow would omit nothing which might make for yowr pourpose but I woulde wish that yow woulde not repete one thing so often For if they had no good tast at the first surely by this often seathing they are altogether vnsauory Cyprians matter is answered the diuision of ecclesiasticall functions into three degrees bishop Elder as yow say priest and Deacon I haue shewed to make flatly against yow There remaineth here that I answer vnto Demetrius vvhich was about the yeare off the Lorde 291. Who if he were bishop off so many churches as is supposed there is the greater likelihood that in Cyprians time there might be bishops of the same breede First if I graunt that he had such a superintendence ouer all the parishes off Alexandria and Egypt as Cyprian is saied of Gregorie Nazienzen almost ouer all the world that is that for his learning and godlines he was sowght to off all the bishops of those partes the Answ seeth he can gaine nothing therby to settle ether his bishop archbishop or Metropoliran But I answer that he hath vnfaithfully reported Eusebius yea and that also pretending to set downe the autors wordes as appeareth for that he hath set them in latin Eusebius very wordes are thes Laetus vvas then gouernour off Alexandria and the rest of Aegypt and Demetrius then nevvly after Iuliane receiued vpon him the Bishops office off the parishes there Here yt appeareth that Eusebius saith that Laetus the magistrat gouerned bothe Alexandria and Agypt but speaking of the Bishoprick off Demetrius onely saith he vvas