hand as fast as you builde with the other But to answere directly to the place of the fifthe of the first to Timothe I saye first that S. Paule wryteth to Timothe and therefore instructeth hym what he should do for his parte in the appoynting of the minister If he had written to the whole Churche of Ephesus he would lykewise haue instructed them how they should haue behaued thē selues in that businesse If one do wryte vnto hys frende that hath interest in any election to take heede that he chuse none but such as are meete shall any man conclude therupon that none hath to doe in that election but he to whom that letter is writtē Then I say further that S. Paule attributeth that vnto Timothe that was common to moe with hym because he being the director and moderator of the election is sayde to doe that whiche many doe which thing I haue proued by dyuers examples both out of the scripture and otherwise before And euen in this imposition of handes it is manifestly to be shewed For that where as S. Paule sayth in the 2. Epistle that Timothe was ordayned by the putting on of hys hands vppon hym in the first Epistle he sayth that he was ordayned by the putting on of the handes of the eldership So that that which he in one place taketh to him selfe alone in the other he communicateth with moe And that he dyd it not him selfe alone it may appeare by those wordes which folow and communicate not with other mens sinnes as if he should saye if other will ordeyne insuffycient ministers yet be not thou caryed away with their example And further that his authoritie was equall with other elders of that church and that he had no superioritie aboue his fellowes it may appeare for that he sayth lay thy hands rashly of none where if he had had authoritie ouer the rest he would rather haue sayd suffer none to lay his handes rashly Agayne it is a fault in you that you can not distinguishe or put difference betweene the election and imposition of handes Last of all I answere that although this might agree to Timothe alone as in deede it can not yet it followeth not that euery Bishop may do so For Timothe was an Euangelist which was aboue a Bishop as hereafter shall better appeare And it is an euill argument to say the greater may do it therfore the lesse may do it The superiour therfore the inferioure If you were at any cost with producing your witnesses you should not be so vnwise to be so lauishe of them as to cite Ambrose and Chrisostome to proue a thing that none hath euer denyed For who denyeth that S. Paule doth not geue warning to Timothe to be circumspect If you meane to vse their testimonie to proue that he only made the elections they saye neuer a word for you if there be any thing cite it To the place of Titus I answere as to that of Timothe for there is nothing there but agreeth also to thys place And as for Ierome he hath nothing in that place as he hath in no other to proue that to the Bishop only doth belong the right of election of the minister I haue shewed you reasons before why it cā not be so taken of the sole election of the Bishop the church being shutte out If authoritie woulde doe any good in thys behalfe as it seemeth it ought seeing that all your proofe throughe out the whole booke is in the authorities of men which Aristotle calleth atechnas peiseis vncunning proofes I coulde sende you to maister Calum which teacheth that it is not to be thought that S. Paule woulde permit to Titus to ordayne byshoppes and ministers by hys owne authoritie when he hym selfe would not take so much vpon hym but ioyned hys with the voyces of the church But he peraduenture sauoureth not your tast and yet you woulde make men beleue sometimes that you make muche of hym if you can gette but one worde vnioynted and racked in peeces from the rest to make good your part If hee weyghe not with you you haue maister Musculus whome you take to bee a great patrone of youres in thys cause which dothe with greater vehemencie affirme the same thing that mayster Caluin sayth asking whether any man can beleeue that Paisle permitted in thys place to Titus or in the place before alledged to Timothe that they shoulde ordayne of theyr owne authoritie and by them selues when as Paule woulde not doe it but by the voyces and election of the churche In the ende you say it is the generall consent of all the learned fathers that it belongeth to the byshop to chuse the minister Because you acquaint my eares with such bolde and vntrue affirmations I can now the more paciently heare you thus vaunting your selfe as though you had all the fathers by heart and caryed them about with you wheresoeuer you went whereas if a man woulde measure you by the skill in them which you haue shewed heere he woulde hardly beleeue that you had redde the tenthe part of them Are all the learned fathers of that mynde I thinke then you would haue bene better aduised then to haue sette downe but one when as you know a matter in controuersie will not be tryed but by two or three witnesses vnlesse the Lord speake hym selfe and therefore you geue me occasion to suspect that because you cite but one you know of no more now let vs see what your one witnesse will depose in thys matter And fyrst of all you haue done more wisely then simply in that you haue altered Ieromes wordes For where hee sayeth wherein doth a byshoppe differ from an elder but only in ordayning you say a byshop doth excell all other mynisters c. I report me heere vnto your conscience whether you dyd not of purpose chaunge Ieromes hys sentēce because you wold not let the reader vnderstand what oddes is betweene S. Ieromes bishops in his dayes betwene our Lord Bishoppes For then the byshop had nothing aboue an elder or other minister but only the ordayning of the minister Now he hath a thousande parishes where the minister hath but one For the matters also of the substaunce of the ministerie the bishop now excommunicateth which the minister can not absolueth or receyueth into the church which the minister can not Besides diuers other things which are meere ciuill which the byshop doth and which neither byshop nor other minister ought to doe I say I reporte me to your conscience whether you altered Ieromes wordes to thys ende that you would keepe thys from the knowledge of your reader or no. For answere to the place it is an euill argument to saye the byshop had the ordayning of the minister Ergo he had the election of hym the contrary rather is a good argument the byshop had the ordayning of the minister therefore he had not the election of hym For ordination
we shall hold out of the church the vnwrytten verities of the papists for my part if it be true that you say I can not tell what to answer vnto them For our answere is to thē the apostles haue left a perfect rule of ordering the church wrytten and therfore we reiect their traditions if for no other cause yet because they are superfluous and more then neede Now this degree of archbishop being not only not mentioned in the scriptures but also manifestly oppugned it is too bold and hardy a speache that I say no more to fetch the petegree of the archbyshop from the apostles times and from the apostles them selues But all thys time M. Doctor hath forgotten hys question whych was to proue an archbyshop wheras all these testimonies whych he alledgeth make mētion only of a bishop and therfore thys may rather confirme the state of the byshop in this realme thē the archbyshop But in the answere vnto them it shall appeare that as there is not in these places so much as the name of an archbyshop mentioned so except only the name of a bishop there shal be found very little agreemēt betwene the bishops in those dayes and those whych are called byshops in our time with vs. And consequently although M. doctor thought wyth one whiting boxe to haue whited two wals by establishing our archbyshop and byshop by the same testimonies of the fathers yet it shal be plaine that in going about to defend both he left both vndefended Let vs therfore come first to examine Ieroms reasons why one must be ouer the rest for in the testimony of men that is only to be regarded whych is spoken eyther wyth some authority of the scripture or wyth some reason grounded of the scripture otherwise if he speake wythout eyther scripture or reason he is as easely reiected as alledged One sayth he being chosen to be ouer the rest bringeth remedy vnto schismes how so least euery man sayeth he drawing to him selfe to breake the church in peeces But I would aske if the church be not in as great danger when all is done at the pleasure and lust of one man and when one caryeth all into error as when one pulleth one peece wyth him another an other peece and the third hys partalso wyth him And it is harder to draw many into an error then one or that many should be caryed away by their affections then one whych is euident in water whych if it be but a little it is quickly troubled and corrupted but being much it is not so easely But by thys ecclesiasticall Monarchie all things are kept in peace Nay rather it hath bene the cause of discord and well spring of most horrible schisme as it is to be seene in the very decretals them selues And admit it were so yet the peace whych is wythout truth is more execrable thē a thousand contentions For as by striking of two flintes togither there commeth out fire so it may be that sometimes by contention the truth whych is hidden in a darke peace may come to light whych by a peace in naughtines and wickednes being as it were buryed vnder the ground doth not appeare If therfore superiority domination of one aboue the rest haue such force to keepe men from schismes when they be in the truth it hath as great force to kepe them togither in error and so besides that one is easier to be corrupted then many thys power of one bringeth as great incommodity in keping them in error if they fall into it as in the truth if they are in it Moreouer if it be necessary for the keping of vnity in the church of England that one archbyshop should be primate ouer all why is it not as meete that for the keping of the whole vniuersall church there should be one archbyshop or byshop ouer all and the like necessity of the byshop ouer all christendome as of the byshop of all England vnles peraduenture it be more necessary that there should be one byshop ouer the vniuersall church then ouer the church of England for as much as it is more necessary that peace should be kept and schismes be auoyded in the vniuersali church then in the particulare church of England If you say that the archbyshop of England hath hys authority graunted of the Prince the Pope of Rome will say that Constantine or Phocas whych was Emperor of all christendome did graunt him hys authority ouer all churches But you will say that it is a lie but the Pope will set as good a face and make as great a shew therin as you do in diuers poynts here But admit it to be a lie as in dede it is touching Constantine yet I say further that it may come to passe it hath ben that there may be one Christian Cesar ouer all the realmes whych haue churches What if he then will geue that authority to one ouer all that one king graunteth in hys land may any man accept and take at hys hand such authority and if it be not lawful for him to take that authority tel me what fault you can finde in him whych may not be found in them It will be sayd that no one is able to do the office of a byshop vnto all the whole church neither is there any one able to do the office of a byshop to the whole church of England For when those which haue ben most excellent in knowledge and wisedome and most ready and quicke in doing and dispatching matters being alwayes present haue found enough to do to rule and gouerne one seuerall congregation what is he whych absent is able to discharge hys duety toward so many thousand churches And if you take exception that although they be absent yet they may do by vnder ministers as by Archdeacons Chauncellors Officials Commissaries and such other kinde of people what doe you else say then the Pope whych sayeth that by hys Cardinalles and archbyshoppes and Legates and other suche like he doeth all things For wyth their hands he ruleth all and by their feete he is present euerye where and wyth their eyes he seeth what is done in all places Let them take heede therfore least if they haue a common defence wyth the Pope that they be not also ioyned nearer wyth hym in the cause then peraduenture they be aware of Truely it is against my will that I am constrained to make suche comparisons not that I thinke there is so great diuersity betweene the Popedome and the archbyshoppricke but because there being greate resemblance betweene them I meane hauing regarde to the bare functions wythout respecting the doctrine good or badde whych they vpholde that I say there being great resemblance betweene them there is yet as I am persuaded great difference betweene the parsons that execute them The whych good opinion conceyued of them I we moste humbly beseeche them by the glory of God by the libertye of
whych handled the pen of the wryter that they came out to helpe in the battell against the enemies of god And in the boke of Samuel and of the Kings where Nayothe and Bethel Ierycho and a place beyond Iordan are specified places whych were scholes or vniuersities where the schollers of the Prophets were brought vp in the feare of God and good learning The continuaunce of whych scholes and vniuersities amongste the people of God maye be easely gathered of that whych S. Luke wryteth in the Actes where it may appeare that in Ierusalem there were certen Colledges appoynted for seuerall countrey men so that there was one Colledge to receiue the Iewes and Proselites whych came out of Cilicia an other for those that came out of Alexandria c. to study at Ierusalem And if any man be able to shew such euidence for archbyshops and archdeacons as these are for vniuersities and scholes I wil not deny but it is as lawfull to haue them as these Furthermore he sayeth that the church is not gouerned by names but by offices so is it in deede And if the office of an archbyshop or archdeacon can be shewed we will not striue for the name but for so much as all the nedefull offices of the church togither wyth their names are mentioned in the scripture it is truly sayde that bothe the offices and names of archbyshop and archdeacon being not only not contained in them but also condēned ought to be banished out of the churche Last of all he sayth that Anacletus if there be any waight in his words nameth an archb I haue before shewed what waighte there is in his woordes and I refuse not that he be weyghed wyth the byshops owne weightes whych he geueth vs in the handling of the article of the supremacye and in the. 223. and 224. pages by the whych waightes appeareth that thys Anacletus is not only lyght but a plaine counterfait The second reason whych sayeth that the churche of God vnder the lawe had all thyngs needefull appoynted by the commaundement of God the byshop sayeth he knoweth not what could be concluded of it I haue shewed before that there is nothyng les ment then that the church vnder the gospell should haue all those thyngs that that church had or shoulde haue nothing whych that had not but thys therevpon is concluded that the Lord whych was so carefull for that as not to omit the least would not be so careles for this church vnder the gospel as to omit the greatest And where he sayeth that there was then whych was called highe priest and was ouer all the rest he did well know that the cause therof was because he was a figure of Christe and dyd represent vnto the people the cheefetye and superioritye of oure sauioure Christe whych was to come and that oure sauioure Christe being come there is nowe no cause why there should be any such preheminence geuen vnto one and further that it is vnlawfull that there shoulde be any suche vnles it be lawfull to haue one head ▪ byshop ouer all the church For it is knowne that that prieste was the heade priest ouer all the whole Churche whych was during hys time vnto our sauioure Christe And as for those titles cheefe of the sinagogue cheefe of the sanctuary cheefe of the house of God I say that that maketh muche agaynst archbyshoppes and archdeacons for when as in steade of the sinagogue and of the sanctuarie and of the house of God or Temple are come particulare churches and congregations by this reason it foloweth that there shoulde be some cheefe not in euery prouince or diocese but in euery congregation and in dede so ought there to be certen cheefe in euery cōgregation whych should gouerne and rule the rest And as for the cheefe of the families of the Leuites and cheefe of the families of the priestes the same was obserued in all other tribes of Israell as a ciuile thyng And by all these princes ouer euery tribe and family as by the Prince of the whole land God did as it were by diuers liuely pictures unprint in their vnderstanding the cheefety and domination of our sauior Christ Moreouer these orders and pollicies touching the distribution of the offices of the Leuites and priests and touching the appoyntment of their gouernors were done of Dauid by the aduise of the prophets Gad Nathan whych receiued of the Lord by commaundement that whych they deluiered to Dauid And if so be that it can be shewed that archbyshops and archdeacons came into the church by any commaundement of the Lord then thys allegation hath some force but now being not only not commaunded but also as I haue shewed forbiddē euery man doth see that this reason hath no place but serueth to the vtter ouerthrow of the archbyshop and archdeacon For if Dauid being such a notable personage and as it were an angell of God durst not take vpon him to bring into the church any orders or pollicies not only not against the word of God but not without a precise word and commaundement of God who shall dare to be so bold as to take vpon him the institution of the cheefe office of the church and to alter the pollicy that God hath established by hys seruauntes the apostles And where the byshop sayth it is knowne and confessed that there wanted many things to the perfection of the church of the Iewes truely I do not know nor can not confes that that church wanted any thing to the perfection of that estate whych the Lord would haue them be in vntill the comming of our sauior Christ and if there were any thing wanting it was not for want of good lawes and pollicies wherof the question is but for want of due execution of them whych we speake not of For the two last reasons against the archbyshop and archdeacon although I be well acquainted wyth diuers that fauor this cause yet I did neuer heare them before in my life and I beleeue they cannot be proued to be hys reasons whose they are supposed to be and whych did set downe that proposition that the byshop confuteth Notwithstanding the former of these two seemeth to haue a good probability and to be grounded of that place of Logicke that sheweth that according as the subiect or substance of any thing is excellent so are those things that are annexed and adioyned vnto it But because I wold the simplest should vnderstand what is sayd or written I will willingly abstaine from such reasons the termes wherof are not easely perceiued but of those whych be learned And as for the answer whych the byshop maketh that in place of apostles prophets the gifts of tongues of healing and of gouernment are brought in vniuersities scholes byshops and archbyshops for scholes and vniuersities I haue shewed they haue bene alwayes and therfore can not come in to supply the roume of the apostles and prophets And
there shoulde be diuers pastors elders or byshops in euery congregation Sathan wrought first that there should be but one in euery churche thys was no doubt the first step Afterwardes he pushed further and stirred vp diuers not to content them selues to be byshops of one church but to desire to be byshops of a diocese whervnto although it seemeth that there was resistance in that it is sayd that it was decreed often yet in the end this wicked attempt preuailed and thys was an other step Then were there archbishops of whole prouinces whych was the third stayer vnto the seat of antichriste Afterwards they were Patriarks of one of the .iiij. corners of the whole world the whole church being assigned to the iurisdiction of fower that is to saye of the Romaine Constantinopolitane Antiochene and Alexandrine byshops And these fower stayers being layd of Sathan there was but an easy stride for the B. of Rome into that chaire of pestilence wherin he nowe sitteth Hauing now showed howe thys Lordly estate of the byshop began and vpon what a rotten ground it is builded I come to shew how farre the byshops in our time are for their pompe and outward statelines degenerated from the byshops of elder times And heere I call to remembraunce that whych was spoken of the poore estate of Basile and Theodorete and if M. Doctor will say as he doth in deede in a certaine place that thē was a time of persecution and this is a time of peace it is easely answeared that although Basill were vnder persecution yet Theodorete liued vnder good emperors But that shall appeare better by the Canons whych were rules geuen for the byshops to frame them selues by In the. 4. councell of Carthage it is decreed that the byshops should haue a little house neare vnto the church what is thys compared wyth so many faire large houses and wyth the princely palace of a byshop And in the same councel it is decreed that he shoulde haue the furniture and stuffe of hys house after the commen sorte and that hys table and diet should be pore and that he should get him estimation by faithfulnes and good conuersation And in an other councell that the byshops shoulde not giue them selues to feastes but be content wyth a little meate Let these byshops be compared wyth oures whose chambers shine wyth gilt whose walles are hanged wyth clothes of Auris whose cupbordes are loden wyth plate whose tables and diets are furnished wyth multitude and diuersity of dishes whose daily dinners are feastes Let them I say be compared together and they shall be founde so vnlike that if those olde byshops were aliue they wold not know each other For they would thinke that oures were princes and oures woulde thinke that they were some hedge priests not worthy of their acquaintance or fellowshyp In the same councell of Carthage it was decreed that no byshop sitting in any place should suffer any minister or elder to stand Nowe I will report me to themselues how thys is kept and to the pore ministers whych haue to do with them and come before them The byshops in times past had no tayle nor trayne of men after them and thought it a slaunder to the gospell to haue a number of men before and behynde them And therefore is Paulus Sam of atenus noted as one that brought relygion into hatred and as one that seemed to take delight rather to be a captaine of two hundreth then a byshoppe because he had gotten him a sort of seruing men to waight on hym An other example not vnlyke and likewyse reprehended is in Ruffine of one Gregory a byshop Now in our dayes it is thought a commendation to the byshop a credite to the gospell if a byshop haue 30. 40. 60. or moe wayting of hym some before some behynde whereof three partes of them set apart the carying of a dishe vnto the table haue no honest or profitable calling to occupy themselues in two houres of the day to the filling of the church and commōwealth also with all kynde of disorders and greater incommodities then I minde to speake of because it is not my purpose And heere I will note an other cause which brought in this pompe and princely estate of byshoppes wherin although I will say more in a worde for the pompeous estate then M. Doctor hath done in all hys treatise yet I will shew that although it were more tollerable at the first now it is by no meanes to be borne with * In the ecclesiasticall story we read that the inscriptions of dyuers epystles sent vnto byshops were timiotatois kyriois We read also of aspasticon oicon house of salutations which Ambrose byshop of Millain had As for the title of most honorable Lordes it was not so great nor so stately as the name of a Lord or knight in our country for all those that know the maner of the speach of the Grecians do well vnderstand how they vsed to call euery one of any meane countenaunce in the common wealth where he lyued kyrion that is Lorde so we see also the Euangelistes vse the worde Kyrios to note a meane person as when Mary in the. 20. of Iohn thinking that our sauiour Christ had bene the keper of the garden calleth hym Kyrion So likewise in Fraunce they call euery one that is gentilman or hath any honest place Monseur and so they will say also fainng your honour Now we know thys word Lord in our countrey is vsed otherwise to note some great personage eyther by reason of birth or by reason of some high dignitie in the common wealth which he occupyeth and therfore those titles although they were somewhat excessiue yet were they nothing so swelling and stately as oures are And as touching Ambrose house albeit the word doth not employ so great gorgeousnes nor magnificence of an house as the palaces and other magnificall buildinges of our byshoppes yet the cause whereupon thys rose doth more excuse Ambrose who being taken from great wealth and gouernment in the common wealth geuing ouer hys office dyd retayne hys house and that which hee had gotten But our byshops doe maynteyne thys pompe and excesse of the charges of the church with whose goodes a great number of idle loytering seruing men are mayntayned which ought to be bestowed vpon the ministers which want necessary finding for their families and vpon the poore and mayntenance of the vniuersities As for these riotous expences of the church goodes when many other mynisters want and of making great dynners and entertayning great Lordes and maiestrates and of the answere to them that say they do helpe the church by thys meanes I will referre the reader to that which Ierome wryteth in a certayne place where thys is handled more at large By thys which I haue cyted it appeareth what was one cause of thys excesse and stately pompe of the byshops namely that
of may be remoued from amongst vs to the end that we being nearelyer both ioyned vnto the sincerity of the gospell and the pollicy of other reformed churches may therby be ioyned nearer wyth the Lord and may be set so far from Rome that both we may comfort our selues in the hope that we shall neuer returne thether againe our aduersaries whych desire it and by this too much agreement with them and too little wyth the reformed churches hope for it may not only be deceiued of their expectation but also being out of all hope of that whych they desire may the soner yeelde themselues vnto the truth whervnto they are now disobedient And as for the papistes triumphe in thys case I shall not greatly neede to feare it considering that their discords and contentions are greater and that our strife is because we would be farther from them For the other that profes the gospell I will desire in the name of God that they abuse not my labor to other end then I bestowe it and that they keepe them selues in their callings commit the matter by prayer vnto the Lord leauing to the ministers of the word of god and to the magistrates that whych appertaineth vnto them To come therfore to touch thys matter I answer that there is fault in the matter and fault in the fourme In the matter for that there are things there that ought not to be and thyngs there are wanting in the order that shuld be Of the first sort is that we may euermore be defended from all aduersity Now for as much as there is no promise in the scripture that we should be free from all aduersity and that euermore it semeth that this prayer might haue bene better conceiued being no prayer of faith or of the whych we can assure our selues that we shall obtaine it For if it be sayd that by the worde aduersity is meant all euill we know that it hath no such signification neither in this tongue of oures neyther in other tongues whych vse the same worde in common wyth vs but that it signifieth trouble vexation and calamitye from all the whych we may not desire alwayes to be deliuered And whatsoeuer can be alledged for the defence of it yet euery one that is not contentious may see that it needeth some caution or exception In the collect vpon the twelfth sonday after Trinitie sonday and likewise in one of those whych are to be sayd after the Offertorie as it is termed is done request is made that God would geue those thyngs whych we for oure vnworthynes dare not aske whych carieth wyth it still the note of the popishe seruile feare and sauoureth not of that confidence and reuerēt familiaritie that the children of God haue thorough Christ wyth their heauenly father For as we dare not wythout our sauioure Christ aske so much as a crumme of bread so there is nothing whych in hys name we dare not aske being needefull for vs and if it be not needefull why should we aske it And if all the prayers were gathered together and referred to these two heades of Gods glory and of the thyngs whych pertaine to this present life I can make no Geometricall and exact measure but verely I beleue there shal be found more then a third part of the prayers whych are not psalmes and texts of scriptures spent in praying for and praying against the commodities and incommodities of this life whych is contrary to all the arguments or contents of the prayers of the churche whych are sette downe in the scripture and especially of our sauior Christes prayer by the whych ours ought to be directed which of .vij. petitions bestoweth one only that wayes And this these foresayd prayers do not only in generall words but by deducting the commodities and incommodities of thys life into their particulare kindes we pray for the auoiding of those dangers which are nothyng neare vs as from lightning and thundering in the midst of winter from storme and tempest when the weather is most faire and the seas most calme c. It is true that vpon some vrgent calamity a prayer may and ought to be framed whych may beg eyther the commodity for want whereof the Church is in distres or the turning away of that mischeefe whych eyther approcheth or whych is alreadye vppon it but to make those prayers whych are for the present time and daunger ordinarye and dailye prayers I can not hetherto see any either scripture or example of the primitiue churche And heere for the simples sake I will set downe after what sorte thys abuse crept into the church There was one Mamercus bishop of Vienna whych in the time of great earthquakes whych were in Fraunce instituted certaine supplications whych the Grecians we of them call the Letany whych concerned that matter there is no doubte but as other discommodities rose in other countreys they likewise had prayers accordingly Nowe Pope Gregorie eyther made himselfe or gathered the supplications that were made againste the calamities of euery countrey and made of them a great Letany or supplication as Platina calleth it and gaue it to be vsed in all churches whych thing albeit all churches might do for the time in respect of the case of the casamity whych the churches suffered yet there is no cause why it should be perpetuall that was ordained but for a time and why all landes should pray to be deliuered from the incommodities that some land hathe bene troubled wyth The like may be sayd of the gloria patri and the Athanasius Crede it was first brought into the churche to the ende that nen thereby should make an open profession in the church of the diuinitie of the sonne of God against the detestable opinion of Arius and his disciples wherwith at that time maruellously swarmed almost the whole christendome now that it hath pleased the Lord to quench that fire there is no such cause whye these things should be in the church at the least why that gloria patri should be so often repeated Moreouer to make Benedictus Magnificat and Nunc dimittis ordinarye and daily prayers seemeth to be a thing not so conuenient considering that they do no more concerne vs thē all other scriptures do and then doth the Aue Maria as they called it For although they were prayers of thanks geuing in Simeon ʒacharie and the blessed virgin Mary yet can they not be so in vs whych haue not receiued lyke benefites they may be added to the number of Psalmes and so song as they be but to make daily and ordinary prayers of them is not wythout some inconuenience and disorder And so haue I answeared vnto those thyngs whych are contained in the 202. 203. pages sauing that I must admonish the reader that wheras you will proue that we ought to haue an ordinarye prayer to be deliuered from danger of thunder lightnings c. because there are examples
constancy that all the rest of the day should be kept holy in such sorte as men should be debarred of their bodely labors and of exercising their daily vocations Nowe where as maister Doctor citeth Augustine and Ierome to proue that in the Churches in their times there were holy dayes kepte besydes the Lordes day he myght haue also cited Ignatius and Tertullian and Cyprian whych are of greater auncienty and would haue made more for the credit of hys cause seeing he measureth all hys truthe almoste throughe the whole booke by the croked measure and yarde of time For it is not to be denyed but thys keeping of holy dayes especially of the Easter and Pentecost are very auncient and that these holy dayes for the remembrance of Martyrs were vsed of long time But these abuses were no auncienter then other were groser also then thys was as I haue before declared and were easy further to be shewed if nede required And therefore I appeale from these examples to the scriptures and to the examples of the perfectest church that euer was whych was that in the apostles times And yet also I haue to say that the obseruation of those feastes first of all was much better then of later times For Socrates confessing that neyther our sauioure Christ nor the apostles dyd decree or institute any holy dayes or lay any yoke of bondage vppon the neckes of those whych came to the preaching addeth further that they did vse first to obserue the holy dayes by custom and that as euery man was disposed at home Whych thing if it had remained in that freedome that it was done by custome and not by commaundement at the will of euery one and not by constraint it had bene much better then it is nowe and had not drawne suche daungers vpon the posteritye as did after ensue and we haue the experience of As touching M. Bucers M. Bullingers Illiricus allowance of them if they meane such a celebration of them as that in those dayes the people may be assembled and those partes of the scriptures which concerne them whose remembrance is solemnised red and expounded and yet men not debarred after from their daily works it is so much the les matter if otherwise that good leaue they giue the churches to dissent from them in that poynt I do take it graunted vnto me being by the grace of God one of the churche Althoughe as touching M. Bullenger it is to be obserued since the time that he wrote that vppon the Romaines there are about .xxxv. yeares sythens whych time although he holde still that the feastes dedicated vnto the Lord as of the Natiuity Easter and Pentecost may be kept yet he denyeth flatly that it is lawfull to keepe holy the dayes of the apostles as it appeareth in the confession of the Tigurine church ioyned wyth others As for M. Caluine as the practise of hym and the church where he lyued was and is to admit no one holy day besides the Lords day so can it not be shewed out of any parte of hys workes as I thynke that he approued those holy dayes whych are nowe in question He sayeth in deede in hys Institution that he wil not condemne those churches whych vse them No more do we the church of Englande neyther in thys nor in other things whych are meere to be reformed For it is one thing to mislike another thyng to cōdemne and it is one thing to condemne some thing in the church and an other thing to condemn the church for it And as for the places cited out of the epistles to the Galathians and Collossians there is no mention of any holy dayes eyther to saintes or to any other And it appeareth also that he defendeth not other churches but the church of Geneua and answeareth not to those whych obiect against the keping of saintes dayes or any holy dayes as they are called besides the Lords day but against those whych would not haue the Lords day kept still as a day of rest from bodely labor as it may appeare both by hys place vpon the Collossians and especially in that whych is alleaged out of hys Institutions And that he meaneth nothing les then suche holy dayes as you take vpon you to defende it may appeare first in the place of the Colossians where he sayeth that the dayes of rest whych are vsed of them are vsed for pollicy sake Nowe it is well knowne that as it is pollicy and a way to preserue the estate of things and to keepe thē in a good continuance and succes that as well the beastes as the men whych labor sixe dayes should rest the seuenth so it tendeth to no pollicy nor wealth of the people or preseruation of good order that there should be so many dayes wherin men should cease from worke being a thyng whych breedeth idlenesse and consequently pouerty besides other disorders and vices whych alwayes goe in company wyth idlenes And in the place of hys Institutions he declareth hym selfe yet more plainly when he sayeth that those odde holy dayes then are wythout superstition when they be ordained only for the obseruing of discipline and order Whereby he geueth to vnderstand that he would haue them no further holy dayes then for the time whych is bestowed in the exercise of the discipline and order of the churche and that for the rest they shoulde be altogither as other dayes free to be laboured in And so it appeareth that the holy dayes ascribed to Saintes by the seruice booke is a iust cause why a man can not safely without exception subscribe vnto the seruice Nowe wheras maister Doctor sayeth it maketh no matter whether these things be taken out of the Portuis so they be good c. I haue proued first they are not good then if they were yet being not necessary abused horribly by the papistes other being as good and better then they ought not to remaine in the church And as for Ambrose saying all truthe of whome so euer it be sayde is of the holy ghoste it I were disposed to moue questions I coulde demaund of him whych careth not of whome he haue the truthe so he haue it what our sauioure Christe meant to refuse the testimony of Deuils when they gaue a cleare testimony that he was the sonne of God and the holy one and what S. Paule ment to be angry and to take it so greuously that the Pithonisse sayd he and his companion were the seruaunts of the high God whych preached vnto them the way of saluation Heere was truthe and yet reiected and I would knowe whether maister Doctor would say that these spake by the spirite of god Thus whilest wythout all iudgement he snatcheth heere a sentence and there another out of the Doctors and that of the worste as if a man should of purpose chuse oute the drosse and leaue the siluer wythin a while he wil make no great difference not
is the rule of the best I say they know that these gouernmentes do easely declyne into their contraries and by reason therof both the gouernment of those which were most vertuous might easely be chaunged into the gouernment of few of the richest or of greatest power and the populare estate might easely passe to a confused tumulte Now thys incommoditie were they more subiect vnto vnder a tyrant then vnder a godly prince For they had no cyuill magistrate which might correct and reforme those declyninges when they happened For the tyrantes dyd not know of it and if they had known of it they would haue bene glad to see the churches goe to wracke Therfore now we haue a godly ciuil magistrate which both wil ought to remedy such declinings conuersions of good gouernment into euill it followeth that thys estate gouernmēt by auncientes is rather to be vsed vnder a christian prince then vnder a tyrant Besides thys in the tyme of persecution all assemblyes of dyuers together were daungerous and put them all in hazard of their lyfe which dyd make those assemblies And therefore if the pastor alone might haue ordered and determyned of things pertayning to the church by hym selfe it had bene lesse daunger to him and more safety for others of the Church And therfore if the senyors were then thought meete to gouerne the church when they could not come together to exercise their functions without daunger much more ought they to be vnder a christian prince when they may meete together without daunger M. Doctor proceedeth sayeth it can not be gouerned in a whole realme as it may be in a citie or town This gouernment by senyors is not only in one citie but also hath beene of late throughout the whole realme of Fraunce where there were any churches and M. Doctor confesseth that it was in all the primitiue churches and therefore not onely in one realme but almost throughout the whole world and therefore the large spreading of the church can not hynder it So that the difference lyeth still in the peace and persecution of the Church and not in the capacitie and largenesse of the place where the churches abyde So might one reason agaynst the lawfull estate of a Monarchie For he might say that although the rule of one be needefull and conuenient in a housholde yet it is not conuenient in a towne and although it be conuenient in a towne yet it is not in a citie and although in a citie yet not in a realme To be short sayeth hee when he can say no more it can not be gouerned when it is full of hypocrites Papistes Atheistes and other wicked persons as in the times of persecution when there were few or none such I haue shewed before how great want of knowledge it bewrayeth to say that Papistes and Atheistes be of the church and I loue not as Maister Doctor doth to vse often repetition but if there bee now moe hypocrites other wicked and vnruely parsones in the church then there were in the tyme of persecution which I wil not deny thē there is greater cause now why there should be senyors in euery churche then there was then when there were fewer For the more naughty persons and the greater disorders there be the more ayde and helpe hath the pastor neede to haue both to finde out their disorders and also when they haue founde them out to iudge of the qualitie of them and after also to correct them with the censures of the church which standeth in such reprehensions priuate and open and excommunication as I haue before rehearsed Afterwarde he asketh what senyors may bee had in most of the paryshes of Englande fitte for that office he asketh the same question in the. 133. page where he also addeth pastors asking where may be gotten such pastoures as the authors of the Admonition require when as they require no other then those which the word of God requireth Well then if thys be a good reason why there should be no elders in any church because fitte men are not to be gotten in all paryshes it followeth by M. Doctors reason that forasmuch as we haue not fit and able pastors for euery church that therfore we ought to haue no able pastor in any church And if he will graunt that we ought to haue able pastoures in as many places as they may be gotten how can he deny that wee should haue elders in those churches where fitte men may bee had And I say further where wee haue an expresse commaundement layde vpon vs to doe a thing there all disputations must cease of hardenes of impossibility or profite or else of peace For first God hath not commaunded any orders in hys churche which are impossible and if they seeme harde it must bee remembred that the best and excellentest things are hardest and that there is nothing so harde which dyligence and trauayle to bring it to passe will not ouercome Which thing if it bee proued true in worldly affaires the truth therof will much more appeare in the matters pertayning vnto God considering that if God with hys blessing doe surmount all the difficultyes in worldly matters whych are otherwyse harde to be compassed hee will in hys owne matters and matters pertayning to hys glory fill vp the valleys although they be neuer so low bring downe the hylles althoughe they bee neuer so high playne the wayes be they neuer so rough so that he will make of a way not passable in the eyes of flesh away tracked and easie to goe in and to walke towardes that kingdome whereunto hee calleth vs Besides that I answere wheresoeuer there is a churche there are the riches of the spirite of God there is wyth knowledge discretion wisdom and there are suche as * S. Paule calleth wise and can discerne and iudge And wee see that when men are called to a lawfull and profitable calling and especially to a publike calling God doth powre on hys giftes of that person which is called so plentifully that hee is as it were sodenly made a newe manne which if he do in the wicked as Saule was there is no doubt but he will doe it in those which are with the testimony of the church and with experience of their former godly behauiour chosen to such offices of waight So that there is not nor can not bee any want to obey Goddes commaundement and to establishe the order in the church whych God hath appoynted but our owne eyther neglygence and slouthfulnes or fearefulnes or ambition or some other leuen which we nourish within our selues It is true that we ought to be obedyent vnto the cyuill magistrate which gouerneth the church of God in that office which is committed vnto hym and according to that calling But it must be remembred that cyuil magistrates must gouerne it according to the rules of God prescribed in hys word that as they are nourises so they
plainly by Ierome whych folowed Ambrose immediatlye who in hys third chapter vpon Esay sayeth that they had also the presbyterie or eldershyp in the church The same myght be shewed by diuers other testimonies whych I omit because that it may appeare by the former treatise touchyng the election of the mynister that thys order of eldershyp continued in the church diuers hundreth yeares after Ambrose tyme euen as long almoste as there was any sound part of the church from the head to the heele Nowe I haue shewed the ignorance it remayneth to shewe howe that eyther M. Doctor was maruellously hym selfe abused or else desyreth to abuse other For if wheras he toke halfe Ambrose sentence he had taken the other halfe wyth hym and had not sodenly stopped hys breath that he should speake no more in steade of a false wytnes agaynst the eldershyp he should haue brought forthe as cleare and as flat a witnes for the proofe of them as a man coulde desire out of an auncient wryter The whole sentence is thys speakyng of thys offyce of the elders although not vpon so good occasyon thus he sayeth Whervpon the sinagoge and after the church had elders wythout whose counsell nothyng was done in the church whych Elders I know not by what neglygence they are worne out onles it be through the slouthfulnes of the doctors or rather throughe theyr pryde whylest they only would seeme to be somewhat Now that I haue shewed the place I wyll say no more I wyl leaue it to M. Doctor to thinke of it in his chamber by hym selfe and so will conclude this question that for so much as thys order is such as wythout whych the principall offices of charity can not be exercysed and that it is that which is commauÌ„ded by the scryptures approued and receyued by all the churches in the Apostles tymes and many hundreth yeares after in the most flouryshing churches bothe in tyme of peace in tyme of persecution and that there are greater causes why it should be in the tyme of peace then in tyme of persecution why rather vnder a christian prince then vnder a tyrant why rather now then in the apostles times that in consyderation of these things the eldershyp is necessary and such an order as the church ought not to be wythout And so also is answeared the third question that for so much as they were church offycers and ouer the people in matters pertayning to God such as watched ouer the soules of men that therfore although they were not pastors to preach the word yet were they no lay men as they terme them but ecclesiasticall persons The rest comprehended in these sections is answeared before being matter whych pertayned vnto the archbyshop Nowe I returne backe agayne to Excommunicacion whych M. Doctor thynketh to be the only disciplyne in the church but he shuld vnderstand that besyde that parte of priuate disciplyne whych is ordinarily and dayly to be exercised by euery one of the pastors elders as Admonition and reprehension there are .iij. princypal parts whych are exercised of them ioyntly and together wherof the first is the election or choyse and the abdication or putting out of Ecclesiasticall officers The second is in excommunication of the stubburne or absolution of the repeÌ„tant The third is the decision of all such matters as doe ryse in the church eyther touchyng corrupt manners or peruerse doctryne As touchyng the election and consequently the throwing out it hath bene shewed before that together wyth the churche the eldershyp hathe the principall sway For the decision of controuersyes wheÌ„ they ryse it may appeare in the. 15. of the Acts that the Presbyterie or Eldershyp of the churche hath to determine of that also Nowe it remayneth heere that whereas M. Doctor sayeth that the Excommunication and consequently the absolution or restoryng to the church agayne doth pertayne only to the minister that I shewe that the Presbyterye or eldership and the whole church also hath interest in the Excommunication and consequently in the absolution or restoryng vnto the churche But heere by the way it is to be noted that in saying that it belongeth to the minister he confesseth the dysorder in our church wherin this power is taken away from the minister and geuen to the byshop and hys offycers Nowe that thys charge of excommunication belongeth not vnto one or to the minyster but cheefely to the eldershyp and pastor it appeareth by that whych the authors of the admonition alledge out of S. Mathewe whych place I haue proued before to be necessarily vnderstaÌ„ded of the elders of the church It is most absurdly sayd of M. doctor in the. 135. page that by the church is vnderstanded eyther my Lordes grace or the byshop of the diocese or the Chancellor or Commissarye And that when a man complayneth vnto one of these he may be well sayd to complayne vnto the church whych is the more vntollerable for that being so straunge a saying and suche as may astonyshe all that heare it he neyther confirmeth it by any reason or lyke phrase of scrypture or by the authority of any godly or approued wryter olde or newe whych notwythstanding he seeketh for so diligently and turneth the commentaries in hys study so painefully when he can haue but one against twentye and but a sillable where he can not haue a sentence It may be the clearlyer vnderstanded that the presbyterie or eldership had the cheefe stroke in this excoÌ„munication if it be obserued that thys was the pollicy and discipline of the Iewes and of the smagogue from whence our sauyoure Christ toke this and translated it vnto this church that when any man had don any thing that they held for a fault that then the same was punished and censured by the Elders of the church according to the quality of the faulte as it maye appeare in S. Mathewe For althoughe it be of some and those very learned expounded of the ciuill iudgement yet for so muche as the Iewes had nothyng to do wyth ciuill iudgements the same being altogyther in the hands of the Romaines and that the word sanâ—drim corrupted of the Greeke worde synedrion whych S. Mathewe vseth is knowen by those that haue skill in the Rabbins and especially the Iewes Talmud to signifye the ecclesiasticall gouernors there can be no doubt but he meaneth the ecclesiasticall censures And if the fault were iudged very great then the sentence of Excommunication was awarded by the same elders as appeareth in S. Iohn And thys was the cause why our sauioure Christe spake so shortly of thys matter in the. 18. of S. Mathew wythout noting the circumstances more at large for that he spake of a thyng whych was well knowne and vsed amongst the Iewes whome he spake vnto And that this was the meaning of our sauioure Christe in those wordes it may appeare by the practise whych is set forthe in the Epistles
to be dennes of loyterors and idle persones whylest there are nouryshed there some whych serue for no profitable vse in the church their offyces being suche as bryng no commoditye but rather hurte of whych numbre certen are whych the Admonition speaketh of in the. 224. page some other which hauing charges in other places vnder the coloure of their prebendes there absent them selues from them and that whych they spoyle and rauen in other places there they spend and make good cheare wyth and therfore not wythout good cause called dennes Finally there being nothyng there whych might not be much better applied and to the greater commodity of the churche whylest they myght be turned into colledges where yong men myght be brought vp in good learning made fitte for the seruice of the church and common wealthe the vniuersities being not able to receyue that numbre of scholers wherwyth their neede may be supplyed And where M. Doctor sayth that that whych is spoken of the Queenes maiestyes chappell is worthy rather to be punyshed then confuted if so be that these be abuses the example of them in her maiesties chappell can not be but most daungerous whych wyth all humble submission and reuerence I beseeche her maiesty duely to consider And as for the reasons which M. doctor bringeth to establishe them in the 225. page as that they are necessary whych he doth barely say and that s Aug. alloweth of a Deane and that the authors of the Admonition are instruments of those whych desire the spoile of them and that a man may as well speake against vniuersities colledges as against them I haue answeared before sauing that it is to be feared that colledges in vniuersities if M. doctor may worke y which he goeth about wil shortly be in little better case then those cathedral churches whych not only by hys own example but wyth might and maine and al endeuor possyble goeth about to fill and fraught them wyth Non residences and suche as haue charges of churches in other places whych do no good in the vniuersitye and partly are such as can do none only are pernicious examples of riotous feasting and making greate cheare wyth the prayes and spoyles whych they bryng out of the country to the great hurt of the vniuersity presently and vtter ruine of it hereafter onles spedy remedy be therfore prouided And wher he sayth it is not material although these deanes vicedeanes canons peticanōs prebēdaries c. come from the pope it is as if he shoulde saye that it skilleth not although they come out of the bottomles pit For whatsoeuer commeth from the Pope which is Antichrist commeth first from the deuill and where he addeth thys condition if it be good c. in deede if of the egges of a cockatrice can be made holesome meate to feede with or of a spiders webbe any cloth to couer with all then also may the things that come from the Pope and the Deuill be good profitable and necessary vnto the church And where he sayeth that collegiate churches are of great auncientie he proueth not the auncientie of the cathedrall churches onles he proue that cathedrall and collegiate be all one But I will not sticke wyth hym for so small a matter if our controuersy were of the names of these churches and not of the matter I could be content to graunt hys cause in this poynt as good as antiquitie without the word of God which is nothing but rottennes could make it But for so much as those auncient collegiate churches were no more lyke vnto these which we haue now then things most vnlyke our cathedrall churches haue not so much as thys olde worne cloke of antiquity to hide theyr nakednes and to keepe out the shoure For the collegiate churches in times past were a senate Ecclesiasticall standing of godly learned mynisters elders which gouerned and watched ouer that flocke which was in the citie or towne where suche churches were and for that in suche great cities and townes commonly there were the most learned pastors and auncientes therefore the townes and villages rounde about in hard and difficult causes came and had their resolutions of theyr doubtes at theyr handes euen as also the Lord commaunded in Deuteronomie that when there was any great matter in the countrey which the Leuites in matters pertayning to God and the Iudges in matters pertayning to the common wealth could not discusse that then they should come to Ierusalem where there was a great numbre of Priestes Leuites and learned Iudges of whome they should haue their questions dissolued and thys was the first vse of collegiate churches Afterward the honor which the smaller churches gaue vnto them in asking them counsell they tooke vnto them selues and that which they had by the curtesy and good will proceeding of a reuerent estimation of them they dyd not only take vnto them of right but also possessed them of all authority of hearing and determyning any matters at all And in the ende they came to thys which they are now which is a company that haue strange names and strange offyces vnhearde of of all the purer churches of whome the greatest good that wee can hope of is that they doe no harme For although there be dyuers which doe good yet in respect that they bee Deanes Prebendaries Canons Petycanons c. for my part I see no profite but hurte come to the church by them And where hee sayeth they are rewardes of learning in deede then they should be if they were conuerted vnto the mayntenance and bringing vp of scholers where now for the most part they serue for fat morsels to fill if it might be the gredy appetites of those which otherwyse haue enough to lyue with and for holes and dennes to keepe them in which eyther are vnworthy to be kept at the charge of the church or else whose presence is necessary and duetifull in other places and for the most part vnprofitable there Last of all whereas M. Doctor sayeth that we haue not to follow other churches but rather other churches to follow vs I haue answeared before thys only I adde y they were not counted only false Prophets which taught corrupt doctryne but those which made the people of God beleeue that they were happy when they were not and that their estate was very good when it was corrupt Of the which kynde of false prophecie Ieremy especially doth complayne And therefore onles M. Doctor amend hys speach leaue thys crying peace peace all is wel when there are so many things out of order and that not by the iudgement of the admonition fauorers therof only but euē of al which are not willingly blind I say if he do not amend these speches the crime of false prophesy will sit closer vnto him thē he shal be euer able to shake of in the terrible day of the lord The next section I haue answeared in the treatise
But it is true that he that is once ouer the shoes sticketh not to run ouer hys bootes And last of all to proue that byshoppes may haue prisons hee citeth Peter which punyshed Ananias and Saphira with death M. Doctor must vnderstand that thys was Ecclesiasticall power and was done by vertue of that function which S. Paule calleth dynamin which is one of those functions that the Lord placed in hys church for a tyme But is thys a good argument because S. Peter punished with the word therefore the mynister may punyshe with the sworde And because S. Peter dyd so once therefore the byshop may doe so alway because S. Peter dyd that which appertayneth to no ciuill magistrate and which no ciuill magistrate by any meanes may or can doe therefore the mynister may doe that which appertayneth vnto the ciuill magistrate For if there had bene a ciuill magistrate the same could not haue punyshed thys fault of dissimulation which was not knowen nor declared it selfe by any outwarde action So that if thys example proue any thing it proueth that the mynister may doe that no man may doe but the Lord only which is to punysh faultes that are hyd and vnknowne If thys be ignoraunce it is very grosse if it be agaynst knowledge it is more daungerous I haue determyned with my selfe to leaue vnto M. Doctor hys outcries and declamations and if I should haue vsed them as often as he geueth occasion there would be no end of wryting The Lord geue M. Doctor eyther better knowledge or better conscience Vnto M. Doctor asking where it appeareth that pope Eugenius brought in prysons into the church as also vnto three or foure such like demaunds which hee maketh in thys booke the authors of the Admonition answeare at once that thys and the other are sounde in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles Heere I will take in that whych the byshop of Salesbury hath in the last page of hys halfe sheete touching thys matter And first of all I wel agree that he sayth that to geue vnto sathan which is to excommunicate and to correct an Ecclesiasticall person by reprehensyon or putting hym out of the ministerye if the case so require is meere ecclesiasticall and not ciuill and that those thyngs ought to be done of the offycers of the church Thys only I deny that the ministers ought to meddle wyth ciuill offyces For proofe whereof the B. alledgeth the example of Augustine whych as Possidonius wryteth was troubled wyth the hearing determinyng of causes Wherin Possidonius sayeth nothyng but that I willingly agree vnto For the minister wyth the elders ought bothe to heare and determine of causes but of suche causes as pertaine vnto their knowledge whereof I haue spoken before And that Possidonius ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustin as he was a minister and not of ciuill affaires it appeareth by that whych he wryteth immediatly after where he sayth Being also consulted of by certen in their worldly affaires he wrote epistles to diuers but he accompted of thys as of compulsyon and restraint from hys better busynesses whereby it appeareth that S. Augustine medled not wyth those worldly affaires further then by waye of giuing counsell whych is not vnlawful for a minister to do as one friend vnto an other so that hys mynisterye be not thereby hindered And for the truthe of thys matter that ministers ought not to meddle wyth ciuill affaires I will appeale to no other then to the byshop hym selfe who dothe affirme plainly the same that the admonition heere affirmeth And therfore I conclude that for so much as bothe the holy scriptures doe teache that ministers oughte not to meddle wyth ciuill offyces and reason and the practise of the church doe confirme it that they ought to kepe thēselues within the limites of the ministerye and Ecclesiasticall functions least whilest they breake forthe into the calling of a magistrate in steade of shewing themselues episcopous that is ouerseers they be found to declare themselues * allotriopiscopous that is busy bodyes medling in thyngs whych belong not vnto them And thus putting them in remembrance of that whych they knowe well enoughe that they ought cosman sparten hen elachon that is to say studye to adorne that charge whych they take in hande and doe professe I leaue to speake any further of thys matter Vnto the two next sections I haue spoken in that whych hathe bene sayde touchyng excommunication canons and prebendaries c. and vnto that whych is contained in the. 226. and. 227. I answere that I can not excuse couetous patrones of benefices but couetous parsons and vicars be a great plague vnto this church and one of the principall causes of rude and ignorant people Lykewise vnto the two next sectiōs I haue answeared before in speaking against the spirituall courts whych are now vsed and vnto the next after that in speaking of the ordayning of ministers And vnto that whych is contained in the later ende of the. 234. and the beginning of the. 235. I say that the church shall iudge of the aptnes or vnaptnes of our reasons and albeit we do finde fault with diuers thyngs in the booke yet we neyther oppugne as enemyes nor are by the grace of God eyther Papists Anabaptists Atheists or Puretanes as it pleaseth M. Doctor to call vs And to the prayer agaynst disturbers of the churche I say wyth all my heart Amen Vnto the next section I haue answeared in the treatise of the apparell And vnto the next after in the treatise whych declareth to whome it doth appertaine to make ceremonyes and orders of the church And vnto the section contained in the. 243. page I say that M. Doctor being asked of Oynions answeareth of garlike For the authors of the admonition desyring that it myght be as lawful for them to publishe by Printe their mindes or to be heard dispute or that theyr minde put in wryting myghte be openly debated maister D. answeareth wyth Augustines sentence whych he hath made the foote of hys song nothing to the purpose of that whych they said the performance of which promise we wil notwythstanding wayte for Vnto the section contayned in the. 245. and. 246. pages HEre maister Doctor contrary to the protestation of the authors of the Admonition whych declare that for the abuses and corruptions they dare not simply subscribe sayth that therfore they will not subscribe because they are required by lawfull authoritye Whych howe bothe presumptuous and vncharitable a iudgement it is let all men iudge especially vpon this matter whych hath bene declared And where maister Doctor wold vpon the marginall note proue that we haue good discipline because we haue good doctrine and thervpon doth wonderfully tryumphe he playeth as he of whome it is sayde meden labon cratei carteros that is hauyng gotten nothyng holdeth it fast For can M. doctor be so ignorant that thys manner of speach doctrine and discipline
reading is but bare feading the discorde is in hys cares not in their wordes For when they sayde it was no feading they meant suche feeding as could saue them and so in calling it bare feading they note that there is not enough in that to keepe them from famishment And in deede vnles the Lord worke miraculously and extraordinarily whych is not to beloked for of vs the bare reading of the scriptures wythout the preachyng can not delyuer so much as one poore sheepe from destruction and from the wolfe And if some haue ben conuerted wonderfully yet M. doctor should remember that potamos ouc aei axinas pherei that is The water doth not alway beare iron And vpon the thirde leafe where he geueth instance in the Apocalypse of the worde priest to be taken otherwyse then for the Leuiticall priesthode and priesthode of our sauioure Christe Maister D. can not be ignorant that the admonition speaketh of those which be priests in deede properly and not by those whych are priests by a Metaphore and borowed speache And whereas he desyreth to learne where the word priest is taken in euill parte in all the new Testament Although all men see how he asketh thys question of no minde to learne yet if he will learne as he sayeth he shall finde that in the actes of the apostles it is taken diuers tunes in euill parte For seeing that the office and function of ron iereon that is of priests was after our sauyor Christes ascencion naught and vngodly The name wherby they were called whych dyd exercise that vngodly function can not be otherwyse taken then in the euill parte M. Doctor vpon the. 5. leafe citeth M. Caluins authority to proue that the laying on of the handes vpon yong children and the Confirmation whych is heere vsed is good In the whych place although he allow of a kinde of Confirmation yet he doth not commende that whych we haue For he dothe plainly reproue Ierom for saying that it came from the apostles whych notwythstanding the Confirmation wyth vs dothe affirme Besydes that there are other abuses whych I haue noted there whych M. Caluin doth not by any word allow He alloweth in deede of a putting on of handes of the children when they come oute of their childehode or begin to be yong men but as well as he doth allow of it he was one of those whych did thruste it oute of the churche where he was pastor And so he alloweth of it that he bryngeth in the sixt section of the same chapter a strong reason to abolyshe it Where he asketh what the imposition of handes should do now seeing that the geuing of the giftes of the holy ghost by that ceremony is ceased Therfore seeing that we haue M. Caluins reason against thys imposition of hands hys name ought not to be preiudiciall vnto vs especially seing that we haue experience of great inconuenyences whych come by it whych M. Caluin coulde not haue that thyng being not in vse in that church where he lyued Whych inconuenience in thyngs whych are not necessary oughte to be a iust cause of abolyshing of them And thys is not my iudgement only but the iudgement of the churches of Heluetia Berne Tigurine Geneua Scotlande and diuers others as appeareth in the. 19. chapter of their confession Vpon the. 6. leafe M. Doctor sayth that the Pope taketh the sword from Princes but our byshops take it at their hands and geuen of them as thoughe chalenge were not made agaynst the Pope for vsing the materiall sworde and not only for vsing it against the wil of the princes For by that reason if Prynces would put their swordes in hys hand as sometymes they haue done he myghte lawfully vse them And wheras he sayeth that our church men meddle not with all ciuill causes or exercise all ciuill iurisdiction but suche as helpeth to discipline and the good gouernment of the church and the state What sayth he that is not truely sayd of any ciuill magistrate in the realme for no one dothe meddle in all causes And further I woulde gladly knowe what ciuill iurisdiction is in thys realme whych helpeth not vnto the good gouernment of thys church and state For if they meddle wyth all that there is none whych they haue not to do with Vpon the. 7. leafe he sayth that he knoweth not the meaning of the admonition when it proueth that the gouernment of the church is spiritual their meaning is plaine enoughe and I haue declared it more at large to be not only that our sauyor Christ ruleth by hys spirite in the hearts of hys elect besides whych gouernment M. doctor seemeth to know none But that there is also spiritual gouernmēt whych is in the whole church visible to be sene exercised by those whome God hath appoynted in hys stead called spirituall because where as the ciuill gouernment vseth the sword thys vseth the word and where the ciuill gouernor addresseth hymselfe vnto the bodye and hathe that for speciall matter to worke on the spirituall gouernors be occupied in reforming the minde and subduing that wyth those punishments and corrections whych God hath appoynted for that purpose Whych signification of spirituall gouernment M. Caluine doth speake of in bothe the places alledged by M. doctor and especially in the later vnto whom the admonition sent the reader not therby to giue more waight vnto the truth but that he myght haue there a plainer and fuller vnderstanding of that whych it meant and could not for that breuity and shortnes whych it foloweth throughout vtter at large Wherby it is manifest that the admonition is so farre from shutting out eyther ciuill gouernment or externall gouernment in the church that it teacheth of an externall gouernment whych M. doctor semeth not to haue heard of allbeit there be nothing eyther more common in the scryptures or Ecclesiasticall wryters Vpon the. 8. leafe M. doctor sayth he seeth nothyng howe the place of the Ephesians maketh any thing against this maner of speach of the bishop receiue the holy ghost and yet it maketh thus much that for as much as the apostles did vse to pray that the grace of God might be geuen vnto men the byshops shoulde not vse this manner of speache which containeth the forme of a cōmaundement Vpon the. 9. leafe he hath sondry greeuous accusations and charges of disorder disobedience and contempt against those whych refuse the apparel and laboureth to persuade that they are great and waighty matters But hys profes were spent before As for answeare to the articles collected out of the admonition it is made in the Replie vnto M. Doctors boke where I haue shewed howe the admonition is misconstrued and taken otherwise then either it meaneth or speaketh whervnto I will referre the reader And albeit I haue shewed how vntrue it is that the admonition affirmeth that there is no church in England yet I can not pas by the secrete philosophy whereby M.
common wealth vnto the church 181. Drunkardes whoremongers c. papistes are neither of the church nor in the church 50. M. Doctors Clemens counterfait 88. c. Communion receiued by 2. or 3. the rest of the church departing not to be suffered 147. c. Papistes ought not to bee compelled to receiue the Communion of the Lord nor to be admitted if they offer them selues 167. c. Communicants what they be which must of necessitie be examined 164. c. Wherupon the ministring of the Communion in houses to sicke parsons rose 146. c. Common bread most conuenient for the Communion 164. c. Kneeling at the Communion daungerous and not so agreeable to the action of the supper as sitting 165. c Confirmation of children ought to be taken away 199. D  Deacons ordayning with vs in part examined 39 Deacons were in euery church 190. c. Deacons office is only in prouiding for the poore of the church 190. Deacons office perpetuall 191. Deacons may not preach nor baptise 161. DecoÌ„sh is no ordinary step to the ministery 163 Deanes in times past how much they differed from ours now 96. Disciplyne and gouernment of the church â—â—â— matters of fayth and saluation 26 Discipline standeth in 3. principall partes 183. Dyonisius Areopagita no archb but bish 91. M. doctors Dyonisius a counterfait 188 E  Elders in euery congregation in the Apostles times 173. c Elders necessary in euery churche of the causes of their office 175. c. Elders in euery church alwayes necessary but especially in the time of peace vnder a christen magistrate 178. c. Eldership was kept in the church vnder christian Emperors in the time of peace 182. Eldership fel out of the church through slouthfulnes ambition of the Doctors 182. Election of the ministers ought to bee by the church 44. c Pretended differences to alter the manner of election of the mynisters vsed in the primatiue church answered 49. c Election and ordination differ 58. c Euangelists no ordinary ministers 63. c. Excommunication doth not belong to one maÌ„ but vnto the church and especially to the minister and elders therof 184. c. F  Standing lawes of fasting brought in first by the hereticke Montanus 30. Augustines and Ambroses corrupt iudgement of fasting 30. G  We haue more certaine direction by the gospel in the whole seruice of God then the Iewes had by the lawe 35. c. Greater seuerity ought to be vsed against sins and especially against idolatry vnder the gospel then vnder the law 42. c There ought to be no more standing at the reading of the gospell theÌ„ at the reading of other scriptures 203 Churche Gouernment compounded of all the good formes of gouernment 51. H  The churches authoritye in makyng of Holy dayes 151. c Of the Apostles and saints dayes 152. c. Of homilyes reading in the church 81. 196. c I.  Iames no archbyshop but a byshop by Eusebius iudgement 91. There ought to be no more curtesy at the name of Iesus then at the other names of God. 203. M  Abuses in the celebration of maryage 196. c. Metropolitane byshop what that the name implieth no supertoritye 93. Metropolitanes very pore 108. 94. Ministers lordship one ouer an other eyther in office or name forbidden 22. c In what sorte and howe farre ministers are superiors one ouer another 109. c The cause of want of ministers with vs. 40. c. Ministers reuolting to idolatrye oughte not to be receiued againe to the ministery 40. Ministers may not exercise ciuill offices 206. O  Officials iurisdiction vnlawfull 188. c. Ordination and election differ 58. c. Receiue the holy ghost an vnlawfull speache of the B. in ordaining ministers 62. c. P  Parishes not deuided by Denis the Monke but by the word of God. 69. Prayers not only in matter but also in forme ought to belike the prayers of the scripture 138 Particulare faultes in oure forme of Common prayer 136. c The name of Priest cannot agree vnto the minister of the gospell 198. Prophet no ordinary minister 63. c R  Reading is not preaching 160 Reading preaching the word compared 159 Residence or abiding in one certain place required of al ordinary ecclesiastical ministeries 60 Residence continuall and necessary of the minister in hys church 65. c S  Sacramentes oughte to be ministred after the word is preached 157. Sacramentes vnlawfully ministred in priuate houses 28. 142. c Scripture containing the direction of al things pertaining to the churche and of whatsoeuer things can fall into any part of mans life 26 Scriptures Canonicall ought only to be red in the church 196. c Singing of Psalmes in the church side by side corrupt 203. T  Theodoret a pore Metropolitane 115. Timotheus and Titus by the iudgement of the Scholiaste byshops 91. but in deede Euangelists 65 Aug. iudgement of traditions very corrupt 31 VV  Widowes in the churche to helpe the sicke and impotent in it 191 Women may not minister baptisme and howe this corruption came into the church 143. c Womens churching corrupt 150 ⧠To the Church of England and ALL THOSE THAT LOVE THE TRVETH IN IT T. C. wisheth mercy and peace from God our father and from our Lord Iesus Christ AS our men do more willingly go to warfare and fyght with greater courage agaynst straungers then agaynst theyr countreymen so it is with me in thys spirituall warfare For I would haue wyshed that thys controuersy had bene with the Papystes or with other if any can be more pestylent and professed ennemyes of the church for that should haue bene les griefe to wryte and more conuement to perswade that which I desire For as the very name of an ennemy doth kyndle the desire of fyghting and stirreth vp the care of preparing the furniture for the warre So I can not tell how it commeth to passe that the name of a brother staketh that courage and abateth that carefulnes which should be bestowed in desence of the truth But seeing the truth ought not to be forsaken for any mans cause I enforced my selfe considering that if the Lord myght lay it to my charge that I was not for certayne considerations so ready as I ought to haue bene to publyshe the truth he myght more iustly condemne me if being oppugned and slaundered by others I should not according to that measure which he hath dealte vnto me and for my small habylitie defend it and delyuer it from the euill report that some endeuor to bring vpon it And as vnto other partes of the gospell so sone as the Lord openeth a dore for them to enter in there is for the most part great resistance so in thys part concerning the gouernment and dyscipline of the church which is the order which God hath left as well to make the doctryne
tabernacles which was commaunded of the Lord to be celebrated euery yeare was not celebrated in such sort as it was commaunded in the law from the dayes of Iosua the sonne of Nun vntill the returne of the people from their captiuitie And yet were there in this space diuers bothe iudges and kings both priestes and prophets singularly zealous and learned If therfore the omitting of so necessary a thing so many hundreth yeares by suche godly zealous learned persons could not bring any prescription against the truth the lacke of this necessary discipline by the space of 30. yeares through the ouersight of a fewe if they be compared with that multitude ought not to be alledged to kepe it out of the church The dignitie also and hygh estate of those whych are not so earnest in thys cause can not hinder it if we consider the wisdome of God almost from time to time to consist and to shew it selfe most in setting forth his truth by the simpler and weaker sort by contemptible and weake instruments by things of no value to the end that when all men see the basenes and rudenes of the instrumēt they might the more wonder at the wisedome and power of the artificer which wyth so weake and foolishe instruments bringeth to passe so wise and mighty things And if men will wyth such an eye of fleshe loke vpon matters they shall condemne that excellent reformation vnder the godly king Ezechias whych the holy ghost doth so highly commend in whych it is witnessed that the Leuites whych were a degree vnder the priests were more forward and more zealous then the priests them selues Yea wherin it is witnessed that the people were yet more earnest and more willing then either the Leuites or the priestes Whych thing if euer is verified in our time For when I consider the zeale for religion whych sheweth it selfe in many as well of the nobility and gentry of this realme as of the people their care to continue it and aduaunce it their voluntary charges to maintaine it their liberality towards them which bend them selues that way as I do therby conceiue some hope of the fauourable countenaunce and continuance of Gods goodnes towards vs so I can not be but ashamed of mine owne slackenes and afraid of the displeasure of the Lord for that those whose proper worke thys is especially and whych should beare the standarde and cary the torche vnto the rest are so colde and so careles in these matters of the Lord. And I humbly craue and most earnestly desire of those whych beare the cheefe titles in the Ecclesiasticall functions that as we doe in parte correct oure negligence by the example of the forwardnes and readines of the people so they would suffer themselues to be put in remembrāce of their dueties by vs which are vnderneath them and that they would not neglect thys golden gift of Gods grace in admonishing them because the Lord doth offer it in a treene or earthen vessell but that they would first consider that as * Naaman the Syrian prince receiued great commodity by following the aduise of his maide and after of his man And * Abigael being a wise woman singuler profit by obeying the counsell of her seruaunt so they may receiue oftentimes profitable aduertisement by those whych are in lower places then they them selues be Then let them thynke that as Naaman was neuer the les noble for obeying the voyce of his seruaūts nor Abigaell neuer the les wise because she listened vnto the words of her man so it can not deminishe their true honoure nor empaire the credite of their godly and vncounterfait wisdome if they geue care vnto that which is spoken by their inferioures And last of all that as if they had not listened vnto those simple persons the one had pearished in his leprosie the other had bene slaine with her familye euen so if they shall for any worldly respect of honor riches or feare of being accounted eyther vnaduised in taking this course or light or inconstāt in forsaking it stop their cares against thys louing Admonition of the Lorde they prouoke hys anger not against their health or against their life but against their owne soules by exercising of vnlawfull authority and by taking vnto them partly such things as belong by no meanes vnto the church and partly whych are common vnto them wyth the whole church or els wyth other the ministers and gouernors of the same wherof I beseche them humbly to take the better hede for that the iudgement of the Lord wil be vpon a great part of them by so much the heauier by how much they haue not only beleued the gospel but also haue receyued this grace of God that they should suffer for it So that if they wil neither take example of diuers their superiors the nobles of this realme nor be admonished by vs of the lower sort wherin we hope better of them yet they would remember their former times and correct them selues by them selues And seing they haue ben content for the gospels sake to quit the necessary things of this life they wold not thinke much for the discipline whych is no small parte of the gospel hauing both things necessary and commodious to part from that whych is not only in them superfluous and hath nothing but a vaine ostentation whych will vanish as the shadow but also is hurtfull vnto them and pernicious vnto the churche whych thing I do morelargely and plainly lay forth in thys boke Another exception against the fauorers of this cause is taken for that they propoūd it out of time whych is that the Iewes sayd that the time was not yet come to build the Lordes house but it is knowen what the * Prophet answeared And if no time were vnseasonable in the kinde of materiall building wherin there be some times as of summer more opportune and fit then others howe can there be any vntimely building in this spirituall house where as long as it is called to day men are commaunded to further thys worke And as for those which say we come to late and that this shuld haue bene done in the beginning and cannot now be done wythout the ouerthrow of all for mending of a peece they do little consider that * S. Paul compareth that which is good in the building vnto gold and siluer and precious stones and that whych is euil layd vpon the foundation vnto stubble and hey and wode Likewise therfore as the stubble and the hey and the wode be easely by the fire consumed wythout any losse vnto the gold or siluer or precious stones so the corrupt things in this building may be easely taken away wythout any hurt or hinderance vnto that which is pure and found And if they put such confidence in thys similitude as that they wil therby wythout any testimony of the word of God stay the further building or correcting the faultes
of the house of the Lorde whych by his manifest commaundement ought to be done wyth all spede then besides that they be very vncunning builders whych can not mende the faultes wythout ouerthrow of all especially when as the fault is not in the foundation they must remembre that as the meane whych is vsed to gather the children of God is called a building so is it called a planting And therfore as dead twigs riotous and superfluous braunches or whatsoeuer hindreth the groweth of the vine tree may be cut of wythout roting vp the vine so the vnprofitable things of the church may be taken away without any ouerthrow of those things which are well established And seeing that Christ and Beliall can not agree it is straunge that the pure doctrine of the one the corruptions of the other should cleaue so fast togither that pure doctrine can not be wyth her safetie seuered from the corruptions when as they are rather like vnto that part of Daniels image which was compounded of clay and iron therfore could not cleaue or sticke one with an other It is further sayde that the setters forwarde of thys cause are contentious and in mouing questions giue occasion to the papists of slaundring the religion and to the weake of offence But if it be found to be both true which is propounded and a thing necessary about which we contende then hath thys accusation no grounde to stande on For peace is commended to vs with these conditions * if it be possible if it lye in vs Now it is not possible it lyeth not in vs to conceale the truth * we can do nothing agaynst it but for it It is a prophane saying of a prophane man that an vniust peace is better then a iust warre It is a dyuine saying of an Heathen man Agatheâ—d eris hede brotoisi It is good to contende for good thinges The papistes haue no matter of reioysing seeing they haue greater and sharper controuersies at home and seing thys tendeth both to to the further opening of theyr shame thrusting out of theyr remnantes which yet remayne among vs The weake may not be offended considering the euen in the church of God and among those of the church there hath bene as great varieties of iudgementes as these are For what waightier controuersyes can there be then whether we shall ryse agayne or no whether circumcision were necessary to be obserued of those which beleued And yet the first was amongst the church of the * Corinthes the other was first in * Ierusalem and Antioche and after in the churches of * Galatia and yet they the churches and that the true relygion which was there professed And it is to be remembred that these controuersyes for the most part are not betwene many For sondry of those thinges which are comprehended in the answere to the Admonition haue as I am perswaded few fauourers of those especially which are of any stayed or sounder iudgement in the scriptures and haue sene or red of the gouernment and order of other churches so that in deede the father of that answere excepted we haue thys controuersy oftentymes rather with the papistes then with those which professe the gospell as we do And whereas last of all it is sayde that thys procedeth of enuy of singularitie and of popularitie although these be no sufficient reasons agaynst the truth of the cause which is neyther enuyous singular nor popular and althoughe they be suche as myght be seuerally by great lykelyhodes and probalyties refuted yet because the knowledge of these thinges pertayneth only to God which is the searcher of the hart and raynes and for auoyding of too muche tediousnesse we will rest in his iudgement tary for the day wherein the secretes of hartes shall be made manyfest And yet all men do see how vniustly we be accused of singularity which propound nothing that the scriptures do not teache the wryters bothe olde and new for the most part affirme the examples of the primitiue churches and of those which are at these dayes confirme All these accusations as well agaynst the cause as the fauourers thereof albeit they be many and dyuers yet are they no other then which haue bene long sithens in the Prophets Apostles and our sauior Christes and now of late in our tymes obiected agaynst the trueth and the professors therof And therefore as the sunne of the truth then appeared brake through all those cloudes which rose agaynst it to stoppe the lyght of it so no doubt thys cause being of the same nature will haue the same effect And as all those slaunders could not bryng the truth in disgrace with those that loued it so the children of the truth through these vntrue reportes will neyther leaue the loue of thys cause which they haue already conceaued nor yet cease to enquire dyligently and to iudge indifferently of those surmises which are put vp agaynst it Moreouer seing that we haue once ouercomed all these lets and clymed ouer them when they were cast in our way to hynder vs from coming from the grosse darknes of popery vnto the gloryous lyght of the gospell there is no cause why now they should staye our course to further perfection considering that neyther the style is hygher nowe then it was before being the very selfe same obiections and in all thys tyme we ought so to haue growne in the knowledge of the truth that in stead of being then able to leape ouer a hedge we should now haue our feete so prepared by the gospell that they should be as the fecte of a hynde hable to surmount euen a wall if neede were The summe of all is that the cause may be looked vpon with a single eye without all miste of partialitie may be heard with an indifferent care without the waxe of preiudice the argumentes of both sides may be waighed not with the chaungeable waightes of custome of tyme of men which notwithstanding Popishe excepted shall be shewed to be more for the cause then agaynst it but with the iust balances of the incorruptible and vnchangeable worde of God. And I humbly beseeche the Lord to encrease in vs the spirite of knowledge and iudgement that we may discerne thinges which differ one from an other and that we may be syncere and wythout offence vntill the day of Christ The author to the reader I Am humbly to craue at thy hand gentill reader that thou wouldest vouchsafe dyligently and carefully to compare M. Doctors answer and my reply both that thou mayst the better vnderstand the truth of the cause and that the vntempered speches of hym especially that whyppeth other so sharply for them which I haue in a maner altogether passed by and hys lose conclusions which I haue to auoyde tedyousnes not so fully pursued may the better appeare Which thing as I craue to be done through the whole booke so chefely I desire it may
of the poore or of the vniuersitie and that that exces is the cause of diuers disorders in those persons that haue it but that they could not preache truely when they preached whych had great liuings I for my part neuer heard it I thinke you would not be exempted from reprehension of that wherin you fault and therfore I knowe not what you meane by these words the they did not those things them selues which they taught others we profes no such perfection in our liues but that we are oftentimes behinde a great deale in doing of that whych is taught to be our dueties to doe and therefore thinke it necessary that we should be reprehended and shewed our faultes Whereas you say that the Anabaptists accused the ministers for geuing too much to the Magistrates I haue shewed what we geue and if it be too little shew vs and we will amend our fault I assure you it greueth me and I am euen in the beginning weary of turning vp thys dunge and refuting so vaine and friuolous slaunders wythout all shewe and face of truthe and therfore I will be breefe in the rest To the thirde We praise God for this reformation so farre forthe as it is agreeable vnto the word of God we are glad the word of God is preached that the sacraments are ministred that whych is wanting we desire it may be added that whych is ouermuche cutte of and we are not ashamed to profes that we desire it may be done according to the institution of the churches in the Apostles time You your selfe confes that excommunication is abused that no amendment of life appeareth since the preaching of the gospel is an old and generall complaint of all godly ministers in all churches and in all tunes * Esay preached this in the church and of the whole churche and further that they brought for the rotten frute Dauid that the faithfull people were deminished out of the lād that there was none that did good no not one And diuers other of the Prophets haue made greuouser complaints and great charges against the people of God and yet were no Anabaptists nor in the way to Anabaptisme If there be none that eyther haue wrytten or spoken that the church of England is no more the true Churche of Christ then the papisticall churche then besides that there is no truthe in youre tongue there seemeth to be no shame in your forheade if there be any it standeth your good name in hand that you bring them out To the fourth If some of those whych fauor this cause haue ben ouercaryed in part to do things which might haue ben more cōueniently ordered it is against reason that you should therfore charge those which fauor thys cause that you oppugne You would thinke you had wrong if because some of those that fauor that which you fauor in this matter be either free wil men or hold consubstantiation in the Sacrament you shuld be chalenged as free will men or maintainers of consubstantiation If those metings whych they had were permitted vnto them by them that haue authoritie I see nothing why they may not seeke to serue God in puritie and les mixture of hurtfull ceremonies If they were not permitted yet your name of conuenticles whych agreed to the Anabaptists is too lighte and contemptuous to set forth those assemblies wherin I thinke you wil not deny but that the word of God and his sacraments were ministred take you heede that these so reprochfull speaches which you throw out against men reache not vnto God A softer word would haue better becommed you To the fifth I answere as vnto the last clause of the thirde article To the sixth We pretend it not but we propound it and herein we call God to witnes agaynst our owne soules To the seuenth If you do not these things which we say not we wil rather do thē with the Anabaptists then leaue them vndone with you Of our simple heart meaning in thē we haue before proteste◠In the meane season we wil paciently abide vntill the Lord bring our * rightuousnes in thys behalfe vnto light and our lust dealing as the none day Touching our sighing and seldome or neuer laughing you giue occasion after to speake of it vnto the which place I reserue the answer To the eight We are no Stoikes that we should not be touched with the feeling of our grefes if our complaintes be excessiue shewe them and we will abridge them What errors we defend and how you maintaine your part by the word of God it will appeare in the discourse of your boke To the ninthe Their finding fault wythout cause in the ceremonies of baptisme can not barre vs from finding fault where there is cause We allowe of the baptisme of children and hope throughe the goodnes of God that it shall be farre from vs euer to condemne it But to let your slaunderous tong go all the strings wherof ye seme to haue losed that it may the more frely be throwne out and walke against the innocent Where where is the modesty you require in other of not entring to iudge of things vnknowne which dare insinuate to the magistrate that it is lyke they will condemne childrens baptisme which doe baptise them preach they should he baptized and whych did neuer by sillable letter or countenaunce mislike of their baptisme To the. 10. 11. and. 12. I answer as vnto the fifth and for further answer I will refer the reader to those places where occasion shall be geuen to speake of these thyngs againe To the. 13. This is a braunch of the. 8. and added for nothing else but to make vp the tale To the. 14. We feare no shedding of bloud in her maiesties dayes for maintaining that whych we hope we shal be able to proue out of the word of God and wherin we agree with the best reformed churches but certaine of the things which we stād vpon are such as that if euery heare of our head were a life we ought to aforde them for the defence of them VVe bragge not of any the least abilitie of suffering but in the feare of God we hope of the assistance of God his holy spirite to abide whatsoeuer he shall thinke good to try vs with either for profession of thys or any other hys truth whatsoeuer To the. 15. VVe make no seperation from the church we go about to seperate all those thyngs that offend in the church to the end that we being all knit to the sincere truth of the gospell might afterwards in the same bond of truth be more nearely and closely ioyned together VVe endeuor that euery church hauing a lawfull pastor whych is able to instruct all myght be ranged to their proper churches wheras diuers onles they go to other then their owne parishes are like to heare few sermons in the yeare so farre are we from withdrawing men from their ordinary churches and pastors Let
oute any wythout good cause that then the Magistrates shoulde compell the churches to doe their duetye In deede the byshop of Rome gaue the election then into the Emperoure hys handes because of the lyghtnesse of the people as Platina maketh mention but that is not the matter for I do nothing else heere but shew that the elections of the ministers by the Church were vsed in the times of the Emperoures and by their consentes and seeing that Otho confessed it pertayned not vnto him it is to be doubted whether he tooke it at the Bishop his handes And if the Emperoures permitted the election of the byshop to that Citie where it made most for their suertie to haue one of their owne appoyntment as was Rome which with their byshoppes dyd often tymes put the good Emperoures to trouble it is to be thought that in other places both Cities townes they dyd not deny the elections of the ministers to the people Besides that certayne of those constitutions are not of Rome but of any citie whatsoeuer And these Emperoures were and lyued betweene 500. and odde yeares vntill the very poynt of a thousande yeares after Christ so that hyther to thys lyberty was not gone out of the Church albeit the Pope which brought in all tyranny and went about to take all libertie from the churches was now on horse backe had placed hym selfe in that Antichristian seate To the next section in the 45. THose that write the Centuries suspect thys Canon and doubt whether it be a bastarde or no considering the practise of the church But heere or euer you were aware you haue striken at your selfe For before you sayde that thys order of chusing the minister by voyces of the church was but in the Apostles tyme and duryng the time of persecution And the first time you can alledge thys libertie to be taken awaye was in the 334. yeare of our Lorde which was at the least 31. yeares after that Constantine the great began to raigne I say at the least because there be good authors that say that thys Councell of Laodicea was holden Anno. 338. after the death of Iouinian the Emperoure and so there is 35. yeares betweene the beginning of Constantines raigne and thys councel Now I thinke you will not say that the Church was vnder persecution in Cōstantines tyme And therfore you see you are greatly deceiued in your accoumpt And if it be as lawfull for vs to vse maister Caluins authoritie which both by example and wrytings hath alwayes defended our cause as it is for you to wryng him and his wordes to things which he neuer meant and the contrary wherof he continually practised then thys authoritie of youres is dashed For maister Caluin sayth where as it is sayd in that councel that the election should not be permitted to the people it meaneth nothing else but that they should make no election without hauing some ministers or men of iudgement to direct them in their election and to gather their voyces and prouyde that nothing be done tumultuously euen as Paule and Barnabas were cheefe in the election of the churches And euen the same order woulde we haue kepte in elections continually for auoyding of confusion for as we would haue the libertie of the Church preserued which Christ hath bought so dearely from all tyranny so do we agayne condemne and vtterly abhorre all barbarous confusion and disorder But if councelles be of so great authoritie to decide thys controuersy then the most famous councell of Nice will strike a great stroke with you which in an Epistle that it wryteth vnto the Church of Egipt as Theodoret maketh mention speaketh thus It is meete that you should haue power both to chuse any man and to geue their names which are worthy to be amongst the clergye and to doe all things absolutely according to the law and decrees of the churche And if it happen any to dye in the churche then those which were last taken are to be promoted to the honor of him that is dead with thys condition if they be worthy and the people chuse them and the bishop of the citie of Alexandria together geuing his consent and appoynting them An other of the famousest councelles called the councell of Constantinople which was gathered vnder Theodosius the great as it is witnessed by the * Tripartite storie in an Epistle which it wrote to Damasus the pope and Ambrose and others sayth thus We haue ordayned Nectarius the byshoppe of Constantinople with the whole consent of the counsell in the sight of the Emperour Theodosius beloued of God the whole Citie together decreeing the same Likewise he sayth that Flauian was appoynted by that synode byshop of Antioche the whole people appoynting him Likewise in the councell of Carthage where Augustine was holden about anno domini 400. in the first canon of the councell it is sayde when hee hath bene examyned in all these and founde fully instructed then let hym be ordayned Byshop by the common consent of the clarkes and the lay people and the Byshoppes of the prouince and especially eyther by the authoritie or presence of the metropolitane And in the Toletane councell as it appeareth in the 51. distinction it was thus ordayned Let not hym be counted a priest of the Churche for so they speake whome neyther the clergye nor people of that citie where he is a priest doth chuse nor the consent of the metropolitane other priests in that prouince hath sought after Moreouer concilium Cabilonense which was holden anno domini 650. in the tenth Canon hath thys If any Bishop after the death of hys predecessor be chosen of any but of the byshops in the same prouince and of the cleargie citizens let an other be chosen and if it be otherwise let that ordination be accompted of none effect All which councelles proue manifestly that as the people in their elections had the ministers rounde about or synodes counceiles directing them so there was none came to be ouer the people but by their voyces or consentes To the next section in the 45. page Thys alteration c. IN deede if you put such darke coleures vpon the Apostles church as thys is it is no maruell if it ought not to be a patrone to vs of framing and fashioning our church after it But O Lord who can paciently heare thys horrible disorder ascribed to the Apostles church which heere you attribute vnto it that euery one hand ouer head preached baptised and expounded the Scriptures VVhat a window nay what a gate is opened heere to Anabaptistes to confirme their fantasticall opynion wherin they holde that euery man whome the spirite moueth may come euen from the ploughe taile to the pulpit to preache the worde of god If you say it is Ambrose saying and not youres I answere vnlesse you allow it why bring you it and that to proue the difference betwene the Apostles times and these
For if it be false as it is most false then there is no difference heere betwene the Apostles times and oures Doth not the whole course of the scriptures declare and hath it not bene proued that there was none that tooke vppon hym the ministerie in the churche but by lawfull calling what is thys but to cast dust and dirte of the fairest and beautifullest image that euer was to make a smokie disfigured euill proportioned image to seeme beautifull to ouerthrow the Apostles buildings of golde and siluer and precious stones to make a cottage of wode straw and stubble to haue some estymation which could haue none the other standing For in effecte so you doe when to vpholde a corrupte vse that came in by the tyrannie of the pope you goe about to discredite the orders and institutions which were vsed in the Apostles times and that with such manyfest vntruthes To the next section in the. 45. page Musculus also c. THe place is too common which you assigne you had I am sure the booke before you you might haue tolde where the place was and in what title But that place of Musculus in the title of the magistrate is answered by hym selfe in the same booke where he entreateth of the election of the ministers For going about as it seemeth to satisfie some of their ministers which were brought in doubt of their calling because they were not chosen by their churches speaking of the vse of the church in chusing their minister he sayth thus First it must be playnly cōfessed that the ministers were in times past chosen by consent of the people and ordayned and confirmed of the semores Secondarily that that forme of election was Apostolicall and lawfull Thirdly that it was conformable to the libertie of the churche and that thrusting the pastor vpon the church not being chosen of it doth agree to a church that is not free but subiect to bondage Fourthly that thys fourme of choise by the church maketh much bothe to that that the minister may gouerne hys flocke with a good conscience as also that the people may yeelde them selues to be eastyer ruled then when one commeth agaynst their willes vnto them And to conclude all these he sayeth that they are altogether certayne and such as can not be denyed After he sayth that the corrupt estate of the churche and religion driueth to alter this order and to call the election to certayne learned men which shoulde after be confirmed of the Prince And that it may yet more clearely appeare that hys iudgement is nothing lesse then to confirme thys election he setteth downe their election in Bernland which he approueth and laboureth to make good as one which although it doth not fully agree with the election of the prymitine churche yet commeth very neare vnto it As that not one man but all the ministers in the citie of Berne doe chuse a pastor when there is any place voyde Afterward he is sent to the Senate from the which if he be doubted of he is sent agayne to the ministers to be examined and then if they fynde him meete he is confirmed of the Senate which standeth of some number of the people and by the most part of their voyces By these things it appeareth that this election of the minister by the people is lawfull and Apostolike and confessed also by him that those that are otherwise bring with them subiection vnto the church and seruitude and cary a note and marke of corruption of religion Last of all that he goeth about to defende the election vsed in the churches where he was minister by this that it approched vnto the election in the primitiue Churche Nowe what cause there may bee that we should bring the church into bondage or take away that order wherby both the mynister may be better assured of hys calling and the people may the willinglyer submit them selues vnto their pastoures and gouernoures or what cause to depart from the Apostolike forme of the choise of the pastor being lawfull I confesse I know not and would be glad to learne To assigne the cause hereof vnto the christian magistrate to say that these things can not be had vnder hym as you vnder maister Muscuius name doe affirme is to doe great iniurie vnto the office of the magistrate which abridgeth not the liberty of the churche but defendeth it dimmisheth not the pastor his assurance of his calling but rather encreaseth it by establishing the ordinary callings only which in the time of persecution sometimes are not so ordinary withdraweth not the obediēce of the people from the pastor but vrgeth it where it is not constrayneth it wher it is not volūtary And seeing that also Musculus sayth that these forced elections are remedies for corruption of relygion and disordered states what greater dishonoure can there be done vnto the holye institution of God in the ciuile gouernoure then to say that these forced elections without the consent of the people must be where there is a christian Magistrate as thoughe there coulde be no pure religion vnder him when as in deede it may be easely vnder him pure which can hardly and with great daunger be pure without him And when as it is sayd that the churches consent should be had in the election of the minister we doe not denye the confirmation of the elections vnto the godly ciuill magistrate and the disanulling of them if the church in chusing and the ministers in directing shall take any vnfitte man so that yet he doe not take away the libertie from the church of chusing a more conuenient man. So that you see that by Musculus your witnesse reasons this enforced election without the consent of the people is but corrupt and so ought not to be in the churche And that although it hath bene borne withall yet it must be spoken agaynst and the lawfull forme of election laboured for of all those that loue the truth and the sinceritie therof To the next section in the. 46. page NOw you would proue that thys election of ministers by one man was in the Apostles time But you haue forgotten your selfe which sayde a little before that this election by the church was not only in the Apostles times but also in the tyme of Cyprian now you say otherwise And if the election of the ministery by the church agree so wel with the time of persecution and when there is no christian Magistrate how commeth it to passe that in those dayes when persecution was so hotte and there were no such Magistrates that S. Paule would haue the election by one man and not by the church Besydes that if this be S. Paule hys commaundement that the byshop should only chuse the minister why doe you make it an indifferent thing and a thing in the power of the church to be varyed by times for this is a flarte commaundement Thus you see you throwe downe with one
not comely and agreeable to the simplicitie of the gospell of Christe crucified they may not be established Concerning your distinction wherby you lesten the idolatrie of the papistes I haue shewed the vanitie thereof But of thys matter you say you will speake againe In deede so you doe and againe wherin you confound the memorie and vnderstanding of the reader and declare your selfe not onlye ignorante of Aristotles rule of katholou proton whych is to speake of one thyng generally and once for all but euen to be voide of that order whych men haue commonly by the naturall logicke of reason Neither can you excuse your selfe in saying that the Admonition geueth you so often times occasion to speake of them and so to lay the faulte vpon it for that it being wrytten by diuers persons of the same matters whereof one knewe not of an others doing can not be blamed for the repetition of one thing twise when as you can not escape blame whych might haue gathered easely into one place y which is sayd of them in diuers Whych thing although it be not so easy for me to doe in your booke as it was for you to doe in theirs yet I will assay to doe it bothe in thys and in all other poyntes that folowe not thincking thereby to bring thys treatise of youres to any good order for that were to cast it new againe and then you would complaine of your minde peruerted but that I might remedy this so great disorder as farre as maye be done wythoute chaunging any thyng of that whych you haue set downe And if there be any other arguments touching any of these poyntes in other places whych I haue not gathered togither into one the fault is in thys that I could not bestowe so muche time in making a Harmonie of the things which are at so great discorde and then that whych is left out shall be answeared in place where I shall finde it Nowe let vs see M. Doctors deuteron ploun and second nauigation touching apparell whether it be any happier or haue any better succes then the first In the. 105. page M. Doctor to proue the vse of the surplice to draw out hys booke into some competent volume boroweth certen places of the examiner for answere wherevnto I will referre the reader to that which is answered vnto the examination as to a full and sufficient answere wherein I will rest and when M. Doctor hathe proued that which he sayth that it is but a childishe cauill he shall then heare further In the meane season it is but a slender Replie to so learned an answere that proueth bothe oute of other authors and out of those same whych the examiner citeth that by a white garment is meant a comely apparell and not slouēly to say it is but a childishe cauill whych a D. of Diuinitie and of xl yeares of age can not answer The place of Ierome vpon the. 44. of Ezechiel the more it be considered the more shall appeare the truthe of the answere Nowe I wil desire the reader to turne vnto the. 237. 238. 239. 240. 242. pages to see whether at thys third voyage M. doctor bringeth any better marchaundise Where first he surmiseth an vntruthe as though the admonition misliked of the taking away of the gray Amis where it sayeth only that there was les cause to take that away then the surplice c. Wherin there is nothing but the truthe sayde for because that was vsed but in few churches and but of few also in those few churches therfore if there were cause to take away that there was greater to take away the surplice And to take away the Amis out of the church and leaue the surplice c. is to heale a scratch and leaue a wound vnhealed Nowe whereas you say that we are alwayes Ad oppositum and that if the lawe commaunded straightly that we shoulde weare none of thys apparell that then we would weare if it should be answered againe that you doe Seruire scenae that is that you are a time seruer you see we mighte speake wyth more likelyhoode then you But we will not take as you doe the iudgement of God out of his handes but will attende paciently the reuelation and discouering of that whych is nowe hid bothe in you and in vs. And although you will graunt vs neither learning nor conscience yet you might aforde vs so muche witte as that we would not willingly and of purpose want those commodities of life whych we might otherwise enioy as wel as you if we had that gift of conformitie whych you haue Wheras you say that the accursed things of Iericho and the oxe that was fed to be sanctified vnto Baall and the woode consecrated vnto the Idoll were conuerted to the seruice of the liuing God when you shall proue that the surplice is so necessary to the seruice of God as gold and siluer and other mettal and as oxen and woode wherof the first sort were such as without the which the temple could not be builte the other suche as were expresly commaunded of God to be vsed in hys seruice then I will confesse that this place maketh some thing for you And yet if your copes and surplices c. shoulde haue suche a purgation by fire as those metalles had or euer the Lord would admit them into his treasure house and shuld be driuen to passe from popery vnto the gospel by the chimney the fire would make such wracke wyth them that they should neede haue better legs then your arguments to bring them into the church Moreouer do you not see heere that you haue not losed the knot but cutte it For the authors of the Admonition obiect the place of Esay and you obiecte againe the places of Deuteronomie and of the Iudges this is to oppose sword against sworde in stead that you shuld haue first holden out your buckler latched the blow of your aduersary As for churches it hath ben answered that they haue a profitable vse and therefore very euill compared with the surplice whych beside that it bringeth no profite hurteth also as is before sayde To be short sayth M. Doctor when he reciteth me almost a whole side word for word as he hath cited before wher he hath had his answere After this he setteth him selfe to proue that they edifye and that first by M. Bucers and M. Martyrs authoritye and yet in their wordes before alledged there is not a worde of edifying If he gather it of their wordes the answere is already made Then he bringeth reasons to proue it whereof in the first he seemeth to reason that because it is commaunded by a lawfull magistrate and lawfull authoritye therfore it edifieth As though a lawful magistrate doth nothing at any time vnlawfully or as thoughe a lawfull and a godly magistrate dothe not sometimes commaund things whych are inconuement and vnlawfull Saule was a lawfull magistrate and did commaund vnlawfull
conscience For if so be that the white apparell of the minister haue any force either to moue the people or the minister vnto greater purenes or to any other godlynes whatsoeuer then it is that whych ought to be commaunded and to be obeyed of necessity and to be retained althoughe the contrarye were forbidden And then also if there be a vertue in a white garment and the signification therof be so strong to worke godlynes it were meete that order were taken that the whitest clothe should be bought that it should be often at the least euery weeke once washed by a very good launder and wyth sope for if the white helpe more white helpeth more and that whych is moste white helpeth moste of all to godlynes Although the church haue authoritye to make ceremonies so they be according to the rules before recited of Gods glory and profiting the congregation I coulde for all that neuer yet learne that it had power to giue newe significations as it were to institute newe sacramentes And by this meanes is taken cleane awaye from vs the holde whych we haue against the papistes whereby against all the goodly shewes whych they make by the coloure of these significations we say that the word of God and the sacramentes of baptisme and of the supper of the Lord are sufficient to teache to admonishe and to put vs in remembrance of all duetye whatsoeuer So we are nowe come to the superstition of the Grecians for as they will haue neyther grauen nor carued image in their Churches but painted so we wil nether haue grauen nor carued nor painted but wouē And truely I see no cause why we may not haue as wel holy water holy bread if this reason whych is here be good for I am sure the significations of them are as gloryous as this of the surplice and call to remembraunce as necessarye things And if it be sayde that it maye not be least the number of ceremonies shoulde be to too great it may be easely answeared that these whych we haue may be taken away and those set in place of them And therefore althoughe the surplice haue a blacke spot when it is whitest yet is it not so blacke as you make it wyth your white significations nor the cause so euill as you defend it If you pres me with M. Martyrs and M. Bucers authoritye I first say they were men therefore although otherwise very watchfull yet such as slept some times And then I appeale from their Apocryphas vnto their knowne wrytings and from their priuate letters vnto their publike recordes M. Doctor proceedeth to proue that they are signes and shewes of good and not of euill as the authors of the admonition alleage To the proufe wherof although according to his manner he repeateth diuers things before alleaged yet the summe of all he hath comprehended in an argument whych is that for so muche as the ministers are good whych weare them therfore they are also good and because the ministers whereof the apparell are notes and markes be good therefore those be good notes and good markes so the reason is they are notes and notes of good ministers therefore they be good notes of the ministers So I will proue the names of idolles to be fit and conuenient names for good men to be called by Beltshaser Shaddrake Misacke and Abed-nego were names of Daniell and hys three companions and they were the names of good men therefore they are good names of men And so the names of the Babylonian Idols are by thys reason of M. Doctor iustified to be good names Again the golden calfe was a signe Also it was a signe of the true God therefore it was a true signe of god Concerning the notes of ciuill professions and what difference is betweene those and thys cause I haue spoken before You say the cause of discorde is not in the apparell but in the mindes of men You meane I am sure those that refuse the apparell but if you make them authors of discord because they consent not wyth you in wearing do you not see it is as soone sayde that you are the causers of discorde because you doe not consent wyth those whych were not for as there should be vnitie in that poynte if all did weare that apparell so should there be if all did weare none of it It is a very vnequall comparison that you compare the vse of thys apparell wyth the vse of wine and of a sworde whych are profitable and necessary but it is more intollerable that you match it wyth the word of god I could throwe it as farre downe as you lifte it vp but I will not doe so Thys only I will saye if there were no harme in it and that it were also profitable yet for as much as it is not commaunded of God expresly but a thing as you say indifferent and notwithstanding is cause of so many incommodities and so abused as I haue before declared it ought to be sufficient reason to abolish them seing that the brasen serpent whych was instituted of the Lorde him selfe and contained a profitable remembrance of the wonderfull benefite of God towardes hys people was beaten to pouder when as it began to be an occasion of falling vnto the children of Israel and seeing that S. Paule after the loue feastes whych were kepte at the administration of the Lords supper and were meanes to nourishe loue amongst the churches were abused drawne to an other vse thē they were first ordained did vtterly take them away commaund that they shuld not be vsed any more The rest of that whych followeth in this matter is nothing else but either that whych hath bene often times repeated or else reprochefull words or vniust accusations of contempt of magistrates wythout any proufe at all and therfore are suche as eyther are answered or whych I will not voutchsafe to answere especially seeing that I meane not to giue reproche for reproche and reuiling for reuiling and seeing that I haue before protested of our humble submission and louing feare or reuerence whych we beare to the Prince and those whych are appoynted magistrates vnderneathe her And therfore I will conclude that for so muche as the ceremonies of Antichristianitie are not nor can not be the fittest to sette forthe the gospell and for that they are occasions of fall to some of hinderance to other some of griefe and alienation of mindes vnto others the contrary of all which ought to be considered in establishing of things indifferent in the churche therefore neyther is thys apparell fittest for the minister of the gospell and if it were yet considering the incommodities that come of the vse of it it should be remoued To the next section in the. 62. and. 63. pages YOu know they allow studying for sermones and amplifying and expoūding of the scriptures why then do you aske But by thys question you would haue
must depose that the name of an archbyshop is not antychristian of whome as of Clement that went before and Anicetus which followeth after the common prouerbe may be verifyed Aske my fellow if I be a theefe And although the answerer be ashamed of hym and sayth therefore he will omit him yet euen very neede dryueth hym to bring hym in and to make hym speake the vttermost hee can And thys honest man sayth that Iames was the first archbyshop of Ierusalem But Eusebius sayth Iames was byshop not archbyshop of Ierusalem and appoynted by the apostles And in an other place he sayth that the apostles dyd appoynt after hys death Simeon the sonne of Cleophas byshop of Ierusalem And Ireneus sayeth that the apostles in all places appoynted byshops vnto the churches whereby it may appeare what an idle dreame it is of Clement Volusianus and Anacletus eyther that Peter dyd thys by his owne authoritie or that the primitiue churche was euer staynes wyth these ambytious tytles of patriarche prymate metropolytane or archbyshoppe when as the storyes make mention that thoroughe out euery churche not chery prouince not by Peter or Paule but by apostles a byshop not an archbyshop was appoynted And heere you put me in remembraunce of an other argument agaynst the archbyshop which I will frame after thys sorte If there shoulde be any archbyshop many place the same shoulde be eyther in respect of the persone or minister and hys excellencie or in respecte of the magnificence of the place but the most excellent mynisters that euer were in the most famous places were no archbyshops but byshops only therefore there is no cause why there shoulde be any archbyshop For if there were euer mynister of a congregation worthy that was Iames if there were euer any citte that ought to haue thys honor as that the mynister of it should haue a more honorable title then the mynisters of other cities and townes that was Ierusalem where the sonne of God preached and from whence the gospell issued out vnto all places And afterwarde that Ierusalem decayed and the church there Antioche was a place where the notablest men were that euer haue bene since which also deserued great honoure for that there the * disciples were first called christians but neyther was that called the first and cheefest church neyther the mynisters of it called the Arche or principal byshoppes And Eusebius to declare that thys order was firme and durable sheweth that S. Iohn the Apostle which ouer lyued the residue of the Apostles ordayned byshops in euery church These two Anacletus and Anicetus you say are suspected why do you say suspected when as they haue bene conuinced and condemned and stande vppon the pillery with the cause of forgerie written in great letters that he which runneth may reade Some of the papistes them selues haue suspected them but those which mayntayne the truth haue condemned them as full of popery full of blasphemy and as those in whome was the very spirit of contradiction to the Apostles and their doctryne And do you marke what you say when you say that these are but suspected Thus much you say that it is suspected or in doubt whether the whole body of poperie and antichristianitie were in the Apostles time or sone after or no for Clement was in the Apostles time and their scholer and so you leaue it in dout whether the apostles appoynted and were the authors of popery or no. I thinke if euer you had red the Epistles you woulde neuer haue cited their authorities nor haue spoken so fauourably of them as you doe You come after to the councel of Nice wherin I wil not sticke with you that you say it was holden the CCC xxx yeare of the Lorde when as it maye appeare by Eusebius hys Computation that it was holden Anno Domini CCC xx and heere you take so greate a leape that it is enoughe to breake the archbishoppes necke to skippe at once CCC yeares that is from the tyme of the apostles vntill the time of the councell of Nice wythout any testimony of any either father or storie of faithe and credite whych maketh once mention of an archbishop What no mention of hym in Theophilus byshop of Antioche none in Ignatius none in Clemens Alexandrinus none in Iustin Martyr in Ireneus in Tertullian in Origine in Cyprian none in all those olde Historiographers out of the whych Eusebius gathereth hys story Was it for his basenes and smalnes that he could not be seene amongst the byshops elders and deacons being the cheefe and principall of them all can the Ceder of Lebanon be hid amongst the boxe trees Aristotle in his Rhethorike ad Theodecten sayeth that it is a token of contempt to forget the name of an other belike therefore if there were any archbishop he had no chaire in the church but was as it semeth digging at the metalles For otherwise they that haue filled their bookes wyth the often mentioning of bishops would haue no doubt remembred him But let vs heare what the councell of Nice hath for these titles In the. 6. canon mention is made of a metropolitane bishop what is that to the metropolitane whych is now either to the name or to the office of the office it shal appeare afterwards In the name I thinke there is a great differēce betwene a metropolitane bishop metropolitane of England or of al England A Metropolitane bishop was nothing els but a bishop of that place which it pleased the Emperor or magistrate to make the chefe citie of the diocese or shire and as for thys name it maketh no more difference betwene bishop and bishop then when I say a minister of London and a minister of Nuington There is no man that is well aduised whych will gather of thys saying that there is as great difference in preheminence betweene those two ministers as is betweene London and Nuington for his office and preheminence we shall see hereafter There are alledged to proue the names of archbyshops patriarkes archdeacons the. 13. 25. 26. and. 27. Canons of the councel of Nece For the. 25. 26. 27. there are no such canons of that councell and although there be a thirtenthe canon there is no worde of patriarke or archdeacon there contained And I maruell wyth what shame you can thruste vppon vs these counterfaite canons whych come out of the popes minte yea and whych are not to be found Theodoret sayeth that there are but twentie Canons of the councell of Neece and those twentie are in the tome of the councels and in those there is no mention of any patriarke archdeacon archbishop Ruffine also remembreth 22. Canons very little differing from those other twenty but in lengthe and in none of those are found any of these names of archbishop archdeacon patriarke And it is as lawfull for M. Harding to alledge the. 44. canon of the coūcell of Nece to proue the supremacie
seculare rule or dominion Wherevpon we see howe that it is safe for vs to go to the scriptures and to the apostles times for to fetch our gouernmēt and order And that it is very dangerous to drawe from those riuers the fountaines wherof are troubled and corrupted especially when as the wayes whereby they runne are muddier and more fennie then is the head it selfe And although M. Doctor hathe brought neither scripture nor reason nor councel wherin there is either name of archbishop or archdeacon or proued that there may be although he shewe not so much as the name of them 400. yeres after our sauioure Christ And although where he sheweth them they be eyther by counterfait authors or wythout any worde of approbation of good authors yet as though he had shewed all and proued all hauing shewed nothing nor proued nothing he clappeth the hands to himselfe and putteth the crowne vpon hys owne heade saying that those that be learned may easely vnderstande that the names archbishop archdeacon primate patriarche be most auncient and approued of the eldest best worthiest councels fathers wryters And a little afterward that they are vnlearned and ignorant whych say otherwise Heere is a victory blowne wyth a great and sounding trumpet that might haue bene piped wyth an oten straw And if it shuld be replied againe that M. Doctor hathe declared in thys little learning little reading and les iudgement there might grow controuersies wythout all frute And by and by in saying that the archbyshops beginning is vnknown in stead of a bastard which some brought into the church that hid them selues because they were ashamed of the childe he will make vs beleeue that we haue a new Melchisedech without father wythout mother and whose generation is not knowne and so concludeth wyth the place of S. Augustine as farre as he remembreth in the. 118. epistle to Ianuarie that the originall of them is from the apostles them selues Heere M. Doctor seemeth to seeke after some glory of a good memory as thoughe he had not Augustine by him when he wrote this sentence And yet he maruellously forgetteth him selfe for he vsed this place before in hys 23. page and citeth it there precisely and absolutely where also I haue shewed howe vnaduisedly that sentence of Augustine is approued howe that therby a window is open to bring in all popery and whatsoeuer other corrupt opinions That the names of Lordes and honor as they are vsed in this realme are not meete to be giuen to the ministers of the gospell there hath bene spoken before As for Prelate of the Garter if it be a nedefull office there are inow to execute it besides the ministers whych for as much as they be apoynted to watch ouer the soules of men purchased wyth the bloud of Christ all men vnderstande that it is not meete that they should attend vpon the body much les vpon the leg and least of all vpon the Garter It is not vnlawfull for Princes to haue ministers of their honor but also it is not lawful to take those that God hath appoynted for an other ende to vse to suche purposes Thou seest heere good Reader that M. Doctor keepeth hys olde wonte of manifest peruerting of the wordes and meaning of the authors of the admonition for where as they say that the name of Earle Countie Palatine Iustice of peace and Quorum Commissioner are antichristian when they are geuen to ministers of the church whose calling wil not agree wyth such titles he concludeth simply that they say that they be altogither vnlawfull and simply antichristian As if I should reason that it is not meete that the Quenes maiesty shuld preach or minister the Sacraments therefore it is not meete that there should be any preaching or ministering of the sacraments Now letting pas all your hard words vnbrotherly speaches wyth your vncharitable Prognostications and colde prophesies I will come to examine whether you haue any better hap in prouing the office then you had in prouing the name And wheras in the former treatise of the name of the archbyshop he blew the trompet before the victory here in this of the office he bloweth it before he commeth into the fielde or striketh one stroke saying that they little consider what they wryte that they are contemners of auncient wryters that they neuer red them and that they are vnlearned which deny these things which he affirmeth Wel what we read how vnlearned we are is not the matter which we striue for The iudgement thereof is first wyth God and then with the churches and in their iudgements we are content to rest But if you be so greatly learned and we so vnlearned and smally red then the truth of our cause shall more appeare that is maintained wyth so small learning reading against men of suche profound knowledge and great reading And yet I knowe not why if we be not to idle we shuld not be able to read as much as you which may haue leisure to read a good long wryter or euer you can ryde only to see and salute your houses and liuings being so many and so farre distāt one from an other And if we be so vnlearned and holde suche dangerous opinions of Papistrie and Anabaptistry as you beare men in hand we do why do you not by the example of the ministers in Germanie procure a publike disputatiō where you may both win your spurres and such detestable opinions wyth the ignorance of the authors may be displayed vnto the whole world But let vs heare what is sayd Cyprian sayth he speaking of the office of an archbyshop c. Onles good reader thou wilt first beleue that Cyprian speaketh of an archbyshop and haste before conceiued a strong imagination of it M. Doctor can proue nothing Aristotle sayeth that vncunning Painters wryte the names of the beastes whych they painte in their tables for because otherwise it coulde not be knowne what they painte so M. Doctor mistrusting that the archbyshop will not be knowne by his description wryteth first the name of that he wil paint out Thys is it whych we striue about wherof the cōtrouersy is and this M. doctor taketh for graunted He accuseth the authors of the admonition for faulting in the petition of the principle or desiring to haue that graunted whych is denyed yet I am sure that in the whole admonition there is not such a grosse petition as thys is Where or in what wordes dothe S. Cyprian speake of the office of an archbyshop And heere by the way it is to be obserued of the reader how neare a kin the Pope and the archbishop be For this office is confirmed by the same places that the popes is the places and arguments which are brought againste hym are soluted wyth the same solutions that they vse whych maintaine the papacie For these places of Cyprian be alledged for the popes supremacye and in deede they make as
good common wealthes wherein many haue lyke power and authoritie And further if because there is one king in a lande aboue all he will conclude there should be one archbyshop ouer all I say as I haue sayde that it is not agaynst any word of God which I know although it be inconuenient but that there may be one Cesar ouer all the world and yet I thinke M. Doctor will not say that there may be one archbyshop ouer all the world Now M. Doctor commeth to hys olde hole where he woulde fayne hyde hym selfe and with hym all the ambition tyranny and excesse of authoritie which is ioyned wyth these functions of archbyshoppe and byshoppe as they are now vsed and thys hys hole is that all the mynisters are equall with byshops and archbyshops as touching the mynisterie of the worde and sacramentes but not as touching pollicie and gouernment The papistes vse the very selfe same distinction for the mayntenance of the Popes tyranny and ambytion and other their hierarchie Maister Doctor hath put out the marke and conceled the name of the papistes and so with a little chaunge of wordes as it were with certayne new coloures he woulde deceiue vs For the papistes saye that euery syr Iohn or hedge priest hath as great authoritie to sacrifice and offer for the quicke and the dead and to mynister the sacramentes as the Pope of Rome hath but for gouernment and for order the byshoppe is aboue a priest the archbyshoppe aboue a byshoppe and the Pope aboue them all But I haue declared before out of the scriptures how vayne a distinction it is and it appeareth out of Cyprian that as all the byshops were equall one to an other so he sayth that to euery one was geuen a portion of the Lordes flocke not only to feede with the worde and sacramentes but to rule and gouerne not as they which shall make any accoumpte vnto an archbyshop or be iudged of hym but as they which can not bee iudged of any but of god And Ierome vpon Titus sayeth that the elder or mynister dyd gouerne and rule in common with the byshops the churche whereof he was elder or mynister After followeth M. Caluin a great patrone forsoth of the archbyshop or of thys kynde of byshop which is vsed amongst vs heere in Englande And heere to passe ouer your straunge cytations and quotations which you make to put your answerer to payne sending hym sometymes to Musculus common places for one sentence to Augustines workes to Chrysostomes workes to Cyrill to Maister Foxe and heere sending hym to the viij chapter of the institutions as though you had neuer red Caluins institutions but tooke the sentence of some bodye else withoute anye examination whereby it seemeth that you were lothe that euer any man should answere your booke letting I say all thys passe what maketh thys eyther to proue that there shoulde bee one archbyshoppe ouer all the mynisters in the prouince or one byshoppe ouer all in the diocese that amongst twelue that were gathered together into one place there was one which ruled the action for which they mette And that it may appeare what superioritie it is which is lawfull amongst the mynisters and what it is that M. Caluin speaketh of what also the fathers and councels doe meane when they geue more to the byshoppe of any one church then to the elder of the same church and that no man be deceiued by the name of gouernoure or ruler ouer the rest to fancie any such authoritie and domination or Lordship as we see vsed in our church it is to be vnderstanded that amongst the pastors elders and deacons of euery particulare church and in the meetinges and companies of the mynisters or elders of dyuers churches there was one chosen by the voyces and suffrages of them all or the most part which did propound the matters that were to be handled whether they were difficulties to be soluted or punishmentes and censures to be decreed vpon those which had faulted or whether there were elections to be made or what other matter so euer occasion was geuen to entreate of the which also gathered the voyces and reasons of those which had interest to speake in such cases whiche also did pronounce according to the number of the voyces whiche were geuen which was also the mouth of the rest to admonishe or to comfort or to rebuke sharply such as were to receiue admonishment consolation or rebuke and which in a worde dyd moderate that whole action which was done for the time they were assembled which thing we do not deny may be but affirme that it is fitte necessary to be to the auoyding of confusion For it were an absurde hearing that many should at once attempt to speake neyther coulde it be done without great reproch that many men beginning to speake some should be bidden to holde their peace which would come to passe if there should be no order kept nor none to appoynt when euery one should speake or not to put them to silence when they attempted confusedly to speake and out of order Moreouer when many ministers mete together and in so great dyuersitie of giftes as the Lorde hath geuen to hys church there be founde that excell in memory facilitie of tong and expedition or quicknesse to dispatche matters more then the rest and therefore it is fitt that the brethren that haue that dexteritie shoulde especially be preferred vnto thys office that the action may be the better and more spedely made an ende of And if any man will call thys a rule or presidentship and hym that executeth thys office a president or moderator or a gouernour we will not striue so that it be with these cautions that he be not called simply gouernor or moderator but gouernor or moderator of that action and for that time and subiect to the orders that others be to be censured by the company of the brethren as wel as others if he be iudged any way faulty And that after that action ended meeting dissolued he sitte hym downe in hys olde place and set hym selfe in equall estate with the rest of the ministers Thirdly that thys gouernment or presidentship or what so euer lyke name you will geue it be not so tyed vnto that minister but that at the next meeting it shall be lawfull to take an other if an other bee thought meeter Of thys order and pollicy of the church if we will see a liuely image and perfect paterne let vs set before our eyes the most auncient and gospel like church that euer was or shall be In the actes the church being gathered together for the election of an Apostle into the place of Iudas the traytor when as the interest of election belonged vnto all and to the apostles especially aboue the rest out of the whole company Peter riseth vp telleth the cause of their comming together with what cautions and qualities they ought to
shal haue one in euery congregation For Iustin declareth there the Leyturgie or maner of seruing God that was in euery church vsed of the Christians And I pray you let it be considered what is the office of that proestos and see whether there be any resemblance in the world betwene hym and an archbyshop For he placeth hys office to be in preaching in conceiuing prayers in mynistring of the sacramentes Of any commaundement which he had ouer the rest of the mynisters or of any such priuiledges as the archbyshop hath he maketh not one worde It may be that the same myght haue the preheminence of calling the rest together and propounding the matter to the rest of the company and such lyke as is before declared As soone as euer you found proestos you snatched that by and by and went your wayes and so deceyue your selfe and others But if you had red the whole treatise you should haue founde that he was proestos of the people for thus it is written in the same Apologie Epeita prospheretai to Proestoti ton adelphon artos Afterwarde bread is brought to the president of the brethren calling the people as S. Paule doth continually brethren And therefore these are M. Doctors argumentes oute of Martyrs place There was a mynister which dyd stande before or was president of the rest in euery particulare church and congregation therefore there was an archbyshoppe ouer all the prouince And agayne there was one which ruled the people in euery congregation therfore there was one that ruled all the mynisters through out the whole prouince And albeit things were in great puritie in the dayes that Iustin liued in respect of the tymes which followed yet as there was in other things which appeare in hys workes and euen in the ministration of the sacramentes spoken of in that place corruption in that they mingled water and wine together so euen in the ministerie there began to peepe out some thing which went from the simplicitie of the gospel as that the name of proestos which was common to the elders with the ministers of the word was as it seemeth appropriated vnto one Another of M. Doctors reasons for to proue the archbyshop is that Cyrill maketh mention of an high priest wherunto I answere that he that bringeth in a priest into the church goeth about to bury our sauiour Christ for although it myght be proued that the worde priest were the same with the Greekes presbyteros yet as shall appeare in hys place is the vse of thys word priest for a mynister of the gospell very daungerous And as for hym that bringeth in an high priest into the church hee goeth about to put our sauiour Christ out of hys office who is proued in the Epistle to the Hebrues to be the only high priest and that there can be no more as long as the worlde endureth And yet if all thys were graunted you are not yet come to that which you desire to proue that is an archbyshoppe For if you looke in Theodorete you shall fynde thys woorde archierosyne which signifyeth the highe priesthoode to be nothing else but a byshoppricke and in the. 7. chapter of that booke and so forth dyuers tymes you shall haue archiereus taken for a byshop as speaking of the councel of Nice he sayth that there was 318. archiereis highe priestes Now I thincke you wil not say there were 318. archbyshops If you do you are confuted by all ecclesiasticall wryters that euer I red which speaking of them call them byshops Chrysostome followeth which as M. Doctor sayth ruled not only the church of Constantinople but the churches of Thracia Asia and Pontus he sayth it out of Theodorete But heerin it may appeare that eyther M. Doctor hath a very euill conscience in falsifying wryters that in the poyntes which he in controuersie or else he hath taken hys stuffe of certayne at the seconde hand without any examination of it at all For heere he hath set downe in stead of had care of the churches in Thracia c. ruled the churches the Greke is epoieito ten promethcian it is translated also prospexit so that it appeareth he fetched it neyther from Theodorite in Greeke nor in Latine And what is thys to proue an archbyshoppe that he had care of these churches there is no minister but ought to haue care ouer all the churches through christendome and to shew that care for them in comforting or admonishing of them by wryting or by visiting them if the necessitie so require and it be thought good by the churches and leaue obtayned of the place where he is mynister vppon some notable and especiall cause being some man of singular giftes whose learning and credite may profite much to the bringing to passe of that thing for the which he is to be sent After thys sort * S. Cyprian being in Affricke had care ouer Rome in Europe and wrote vnto the church there After thys sort also was * Ireneus byshoppe of Lions sent by the French churches vnto the churches in Phrigia And after thys sort haue M. Caluin and M. Beza bene sent from Geneua in Sauoy to the churches of Fraunce Now if you will conclude heereupon that Cyprian ruled the churche of Rome or Ireneus the churches of Phrigia or maister Caluin or M. Beza the churches of Fraunce or that they were byshops or archbyshops of those places you shall but conclude as you were wont to doe but yet all men vnderstand that heere is nothing lesse then an archbyshop or any such byshoppe as we haue and vse in our church And if so be that Chrysostome should be byshop or archbyshop of al these churches which were in al Asia Pontus Thracia as you wold geue the reader to vnderstand you make hym byshop of more churches then euer the Pope of Rome was when he was in hys greatest pryde and hys Empire largest For there were sixe presidentships in Thracia and in Asia there were a eleuen Princes and had seuerall regions or gouernmentes and in Pontus as many and if he were byshop or archbyshop of all the churches within these dominions he had neede of a long spone to feede with all It is certayne therefore that he was byshop only of the church in Constantinople and had an eye a care to those other churches And that he was byshop of one citie or of one church it may appeare by that which I haue before alleaged oute of the Greeke Scholiaste vpon Titus who citeth there Chrysostome where it is sayd that S. Paule dyd not meane to make one ouer the whole I le but that euery one should haue hys proper congregation c. * And in an other place he sheweth the difference betweene the Emperour and the byshop that the one is ouer the world and the other that is the byshop is ouer one citie Touching Theodorete byshop of Cyrus to let pas that which the bishops of
red more of him then you For I haue red ouer his boke of Martyrs and so I thinke did neuer you For if you had red so diligently in M. Foxe as you haue ben hasty to snatch at this place he would haue taught you the forgery of these Epistles whereout you fetch your authorities and would haue shewed you that the distinguishing of the orders of metropolitanes bishops and other degrees whych you say sometimes had their beginnings in the apostles times somtimes you can not tell whē were not in Higinus time which was a. 180. yeres after Christ I perceiue you fear M. Foxe is an ennemy vnto your archbyshop and primate therfore it seemeth you went about to corrupt hym wyth hys praise and to seeke to drawe hym if it were possible vnto the archbyshop and if not yet at the least that he would be no ennemy if he would not nor could not be his frend You make me suspect that your praise is not harty but pretended because you do so often so bitterly speake against all those that will not receiue the cap and surplice and other ceremonies wherof M. Fox declareth his great misliking For answer vnto the place because I remēber it not nor meane not to read ouer the whole boke to seeke it I say first as I said before that there may be some thing before or after which may geue the solution to this place especially seeing M. Foxe in another place prouing the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfet he vseth thys reason because the fifthe Canon of the sayd Epistles solemnely entreateth of the difference betwene primates metropolitanes and archbyshops whych distinction sayth he of titles and degrees sauor more of ambition thē persecution Moreouer I say that M. Foxe wryting a story doth take greater paine and loketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what time and by whom then how iustly or vniustly how conueniently or inconueniently it is done Last of all if any thing be spoken there to the hinderance of the sincerity of the gospell I am well assured that M. Foxe whych hath trauailed so much and so profitably to that end will not haue hys authority or name therin to bring any preiudice Now wil I also wyne with you and leaue it to the iudgement of the indifferent reader how well out of the scriptures councels wryters old and new you haue proued either the lawfulnes at all of the names of archbishops patriarches archdeacons primates or of the lawfulnes of the office of them and of byshops whych be in our times And for as much as I haue purposed to answer in one place that which is scattered in diuers I will heere answere halfe a shete of paper whych is annexed of late vnto thys boke put forthe in the name and vnder the credite of the B. of Salisbury Wherin I wil say nothyng of those byting sharpe words which are giuen partly in the beginning when he calleth the propounders of the proposition whych concerneth archbyshops and archdeacons nouices partly in the end when he calleth them children and the doctrine of the gospell wantonnes c. If he had liued for hys learning and grauitye and otherwyse good desertes of the church in defending the cause therof agaynst the papistes we coulde haue easely borne it at hys handes nowe he is deade and layde vp in peace it were agaynste all humanitye to dygge or to breake vp hys graue only I wil leaue it to the consideration of the reader vpon those things whych are alledged to iudge whether it be any wantonnes or noueltye whych is confirmed by so graue testimonyes of the auncient worde of god Vnto the place of the. 4. of the Ephesians before alledged he answeareth cleane contrary to that whych M. Doctor sayth that we haue nowe neyther Apostles nor Euangelists nor Prophets wherevppon he wold conclude that that place is no perfect paterne of the ministery in the church In deede it is true we haue not neyther is it nedefull that wee should It was therfore sufficient that there were once and for a time so that the wante of those nowe is no cause whye the minysteries there recited be not sufficient for the accomplyshment and full fynishing of the church nor cause whye anye other minysteries should be added besydes those whych are there recyted Afterward he saith that neither byshop nor elder are reckned in that place The pastor is there reckened vp and I haue shewed that the pastor and byshop are all one and are but dyuers names to signifye one thyng And as for those elders whych doe only gouerne they are made mention of in other places the apostles purpose being to recken vp here only those minysteries whych are conuersant in the worde as I haue before alledged and therefore the byshop and elder whych wyth gouernment teache also are there contained After that he sayeth there is no catechista if there be a pastor or as some thynke Doctor there is one whych bothe can and ought to instruct the youth neyther doth it pertayne to any other in the churche and publykely to teache the youth in the rudiments of religion then vnto eyther the pastor or doctor how so euer in some times and places they haue made a seuerall office of it And where he sayth that there is neyther deacon nor reader mentioned for the deacon I haue answeared that s Paul speaketh there only of those functiōs whych are occupyed both in teachyng and gouernyng the churches and therfore there was no place there to speake of a deacon and as for the reader it is no such office in the churche whych the minister may not doe And if eyther he haue not leysure or his strength and voyce wil not serue hym first to read some long time and afterwarde to preache it is an easye matter to appoynt some of the elders or deacons or some other graue man in the church to that purpose as it hathe bene practised in the churches in times past and is in the churches reformed in oure dayes without making any new order or office of the ministery Where he sayth that by thys reason we should haue no churches pulpits schooles nor vniuersities it is first easely answeared that S. Paule speaketh not in the. 4. to the Ephesians of all things necessary for the churche but only of all necessary ecclesiasticall functions whych do both teach gouerne in the church and then I haue already shewed that there were both churches and pulpits As for scholes and vniuersities it is sufficient commaundement of them in that it is commaunded that bothe the magistrates and pastors should be learned for he that commaundeth that they shoulde be learned commaundeth those things and those meanes wherby they may most conueniently come to that learning And we haue also examples of them commended vnto vs in the old Testament As in the boke of the Iudges when Debora commendeth the vniuersity men and those
let him as though there were some variance betwene the people and the minister or as though he were afraide of some infection of plage And in dede it renueth the memory of the Leuitical priesthode whych did withdrawe himselfe from the people into the place called the holyest place where he talked wyth God and offered for the sinnes of the people Likewise for Mariage he cometh backe againe into the body of the church and for baptisme vnto the church dore what comelines what decency what edifying is thys Decencie I say in running and trudging from place to place edifying in standing in that place and after that sort where he can worst be harde and vnderstanded S. Luke sheweth that in the primitiue church both the prayers and preachings and the whole exercise of religion was done otherwyse For he sheweth howe S. Peter sitting amongste the rest to the ende he myght be the better heard rose not that only but that he stode in the midst of the people that his voyce might as much as might be come indifferently to all their eares and so standing both prayed and preached Now if it be said for the chapters Letany there is commaundement geuen that they shuld be red in the body of the church in deede it is true and therof is easely perceiued this disorder whych is in saying the rest of the prayers partly in the hither end and partly in the further end of the chauncell For seeing that those are red in the body of the church that the people may both heare and vnderstand what is red what shuld be the cause why the rest should be red farther of vnles it be that either those things are not to be heard of them or at the least not so necessary for them to be heard as the other whych are recited in the body or midst of the church And if it be further sayd that the boke leaueth that to the discretion of the ordinarye and that he may reforme it if there be any thing amis then it is easely answered again that besides that it is against reason that the commoditye and edifying of the church should depende vpon the pleasure of one man so that vpon hys eyther good or euill aduise and discretion it should be well or euell wyth the church Besides this I say we see by experience of the disorders whych are in many churches and dioceses in thys behalfe how that if it were lawfull to commit such authority vnto one man yet that it is not safe so to doe considering that they haue so euill quitten them selues in their charges and that in a matter the inconuenience wherof being so easely sene and so easely reformed there is notwythstanding so greate and so generall an abuse And the end of the order in the boke is to be obserued which is to kepe the praiers in the accustomed place of the church chappell or chauncell whych how maketh it to edification And thus for the generall faultes committed either in the whole Liturgy or in the most part of it both that I may haue no nede to repete the same in the particulares and that I be not compelled alwayes to enter a new disputation so ofte as M. Doctor sayeth very vnskilfully and vnlike a deuine whence so euer thys or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the church of Christ Nowe I come to the forme of prayer whych is prescribed wherin the authors of the admonition declare that their meaning is not to disalow of prescript seruice of prayer but of thys forme that we haue For they expound themselues in the additions vnto the first part of the admonition It is not to any purpose that M. Doctor setteth himselfe to proue that there may be a prescript order of prayer by Iustine Martyrs testimony which notwithstanding hath not one word of prescript forme of prayers only he sayth there were prayers He sayth in dede the auncient fathers say that there hathe bene alwayes such kinde of prayers in the churches although they do say so yet all men may vnderstand easely that M. doctor speaketh thys rather by coniecture or that he hath heard other mē say so for so much as that Doctor whych he hathe chosen out to speake for all the rest hath no such thing as he fathereth on him He sayeth that after they haue baptised they pray for them selues for hym that is baptised and for all men that they may be mete to learne the truth and to expres it in their honest conuersation and that they be found to kepe the commaundements that they may attaine to eternal life but is this to say the there was a prescript forme of prayer when he sheweth nothing els but the chefe poynts vpon the whych they conceiued their prayers If you had alleaged thys to proue what were the matters or principall poyntes that the primitiue church vsed to pray for you had alleaged thys to purpose but to alleage it for a profe of a prescript forme of prayer when there is not there mētioned so much as the essentiall forme of prayer whych is the asking of our petitions in the name and through the intercession of our sauior Christ without the whych there is not nor cannot be any prayer argueth that either you litle know what the forme of prayer is or that you thought as you charge the authors of the admonition so often that this geare of yours should neuer haue come to the examination But for as muche as we agree of a prescript forme of prayer to be vsed in the church let that go thys that I haue sayd is to shew that when M. Doctor hapneth of a good cause whych is very seldome in this boke yet then he marreth it in the handling After he affirmeth that there can be nothing shewed in the whole boke whych is not agreeable vnto the word of God. I am very lothe to enter into this field albeit M. Doctor dothe thus prouoke me bothe because the Papistes will lightly take occasion of euill speaking when they vnderstand that we do not agree amongst our selues in euery poynte as for that some fewe professors of the gospell being priuate men boldened vpon such treatises take such wayes sometimes and breake forth into such speaches as are not meete nor conuenient Notwythstanding my duetie of defending the truthe and loue whych I haue first towardes God and then towards my countrey constraineth me being thus prouoked to speake a fewe woordes more particularly of the fourme of prayer that when the blemishes thereof doe appeare it may please the Queenes maiestie and her honourable Councell wyth those of the Parliamente whome the Lorde hathe vsed as singulare instrumentes to deliuer thys realme from the hotte furnaice and iron yoke of the popishe Egipte to procure also that the corruptions whych we haue broughte from them as those wysh whych we being so deepely dide and stained haue not so easely shaken
extremity for the doing whereof the orders that God hath set that it should be done in the congregation by the mynister of the gospell are broken Yes verely And I will further say that although that the infants which dye without baptisme should be assuredly damned which is most false yet ought not the orders which God hath set in his church to be broken after thys sort For as the saluation of men ought to be deare vnto vs so the glory of God which consisteth in that hys orders be kept ought to bee much more deare that if at any tyme the controuersy could be betwene hys glory and our saluation our saluation ought to fall that hys glory may stand Now in the 187. page M. Doctor answeareth heereunto that thys implyeth no more that the saluation is tyed to the sacramentes then when it is taught that infants must be baptysed and not tary vntill they come to the age of discretion Which how truely it is spoken when as the one hath ground of the scripture the other hath none the one approued by the continuall and almost the generall practise of the church the other vsed in the corrupt and rotten estate thereof let all men iudge Therefore for so much as the mynistery of the worde and sacramentes goe together that the mynistery of the word may not be committed vnto women and for that thys euill custome hath rysen fyrst of a false vnderstanding of the scripture and then of a false conclusion of that vntrue vnderstanding which is that they can not be saued which are not baptised and for that the authors them selues of that error did neuer seeke no remedy of the mischeefe in womens or priuate baptim And last of all for that if there were any remedy agaynst that mischefe in such kynde of baptisme yet it ought not to be vsed being agaynst the institution of God hys glory I conclude that the priuate baptisme and by women is vtterly vnlawfull There followeth the priuate communion which is found fault with both for the place wherein it is mynistred for the small number of communicants which are admitted by the bocke of seruice Touching the place before is spoken sufficiently it reasteth to consider of the number But before I come to that I will speake some thing of the causes beginning of receiuing in houses of the mynistring of the Communion vnto sicke folkes It is not to be denyed but that thys abuse is very auncient and was in Iustin Martyrs tyme in Tertullians and Cyprians tyme euen as also there were other abuses crept into the supper of the Lord and that very grose as the mingling of water with wine and therein also a necessitie and great mystery placed as it may appeare both by Iustine Martyr and Cyprian Which I therefore by the way doe admonish the reader of that the antiquity of thys abuse of pryuate communion bee not preiudiciall to the truthe no more then the mingling of water with that opynion of necessitie that those fathers had of it is or oughte to bee preiudiciall to that that wee vse in mynistring the cuppe with pure wine according to the instytution I say therefore that thys abuse was auncient and rose vpon these causes First of all in the prymitiue church the dyscipline of the churche was so seuere and so extreame that if any which professed the truth and were of the body of the church did through infirmitie deny the truth ioyned hym self vnto the idolatrous seruice although he repenting came againe vnto the church yet was he not receiued to the communion of the Lords supper any more And yet lying in extremitie of sickenes and redy to depart thys lyfe if hee dyd require the communion in token that the church had forgeuen the faulte and was reconcyled altogether vnto that person that had so fallen they graunted that he might be partaker of it as may appeare by the story of Serapion Another cause was that which was before alleaged which is the false opynion which they had conceiued that all those were condemned that receiued not the supper of the Lord therfore when as those that were as they called thē cathecumeni which is yong nouices in relygion neuer admitted to the supper or yong children fell sicke daungerously they mynistred the supper of the Lord vnto them least they should want their voyage victuall as they termed it which abuse notwithstanding was neither so auncient as the other nor so generall And there wanted not good men which declared their mislyking and dyd decree agaynst both the abuses agaynst all maner communicating in priuate houses As in the councell of * Laodicea it was ordayned that neyther byshop nor elder shuld make any oblation that was mynister any communion in houses Besides therfore that I haue before shewed the vnlawfulnesse generally of mynistring the sacrament in priuate places seeing that the custome of mynistring thys supper vnto the sicke rose vpon corrupt causes and rotten foundations considering also God be praysed in these times there are none dryuen by feare to renounce the truth whereupon any such excommunication should ensue which in the extremitie of sicknesse should be mitigated after thys sort for no man now that is in extreame sicknesse is cast downe or else assaulted with thys temptation that he is cut of from the church I say these things considered it followeth that thys mynistring of communion in priuate houses to the sicke is vnlawfull as that which rose vpon euil groundes if it were lawfull yet that now in these times of peace when the sicke are not excommunicated there is no vse of it And so it appeareth how little the custome of the olde church doth helpe M. Doctor in thys poynt And as for that he sayth Peter Martyr Bucer doe allow the communion exhibited to the sicke persons when he sheweth that he shal haue answer For wher he saith he hath declared it in an other treatise either the Printer hath left out the treatise or M. Doc. wonderfully forgetteth hym selfe or else he meaneth some odde thing that he hath written layd vp in some corner of his study For surely there is no such saying in all hys boke before nor yet after so far as I can finde Now remayneth to be spoken of the number of communicants that there is fault in the appoynting of the seruice booke not only for that it admitteth in the tyme of plage that one with the mynister may celebrate the supper of the Lord in the house but for that it ordayneth a communion in the church when of a great number which assemble there it admitteth three or fower the abuse and inconuenience whereof may thus bee considered The holy sacrament of the supper of the Lorde is not only a seale and confirmation of the promises of God vnto vs but also a profession of our coniunction as well with Christ our sauiour and with
God as also as S. Paule teacheth a declaration and profession that wee are at one with oure brethren so that it is fyrst a sacrament of the knitting of all the body generally and of euery member particularly with the heade and then of the members of the body one with an other Now therefore seeing that euery particular church and body of Gods people is a representation and as it were a liuely portraiture of the whole church and body of Christ it followeth that that which we can not doe with all the church scattered throughout the whole world for the distances of places whereby we are seuered we ought to doe with that church whereunto God hath raunged vs as much as possibly or conueniently may be The departing therefore of the rest of the church from those three or fower is an open profession that they haue no communion fellowshippe nor vnitie with them that doe communicate and lykewise of those three or foure that they haue none with the rest that ioyne not them selues thereunto when as both by the many grapes making one cuppe and cornes making one loafe that whole church being many parsons are called as to the vnitie which they haue one with an other and altogether amongst them selues so to the declaration and profession of it by receiuing one with an other and altogether amongst them selues And as if so be that we do not celebrate as we may possibly and conueniently the supper of the Lord we thereby vtter our want of loue towardes the Lord which hath redeemed vs so if we doe not communicate together with the churche so farre forth as we may do conueniently we betray the want of our loue that we haue one towardes an other And therefore S. Paul dryuing heereunto willeth that one shoulde tary for an other reprehending that when one preuenteth and commeth before an other saying that that is to take euery man hys owne supper and not to celebrate the Lords supper Not that so many men or women as there came so many tables were for that had not bene possible in so great assemblyes but that they sorted them selues into certayne companyes and that they came scattering one after an other and that in stead of making one supper of the Lord they dyd make dyuers These things being considered the reason which the Admonition vseth in the 185. page where thys matter is spoken of which is drinke you all of thys is not so rydiculous as M. Doctor maketh it For although that it doe neyther proue that 12. or 20. or any other definite number must of necessitie receyue yet it proueth that as all they which were present dyd communicate And so as many as in the church are fit to receiue the sacraments or may conueniently receiue them together shoulde follow that example in celebrating the supper together And it is probably to be thought that if our sauiour Christ had not bene restrayned by the law of God touching the passeouer vnto hys owne family and to as many onely as would serue to eate vppe a Lambe by them selues that he would haue celebrated hys supper amongst other of hys disciples and professoures of hys doctryne But for so muche as it was meete that hee shoulde celebrate hys supper there and then where and when hee dyd celebrate hys passeouer for the cause before by me alleaged it pleased hym to keepe hys first supper with the fewer for that the law of communication vnto the passeouer which was ioyned wyth the supper woulde not admit any greater number of communicants then was sufficient to eate vp the passeouer And althoughe it be cleare and playne that when it is sayde drincke ye all of thys and tary one for an other these sayinges are ment of that particulare congregation or assembly which assemble themselues together to be taught by one mouth of the mynister yet I haue therefore put thys caution as muche as may be possyble least any man shoulde cauill as though I would haue no communion vntill all the godly through the world should meete together Likewise I haue put thys caution as much as may be conueniently for although it be possible that a perticulare church may communicate at one table in one day and together yet maye the same be inconuenient for dyuers causes As if the number should be very great so that to haue them all communicate together it would require suche a long tyme as the tarying out of the whole action would hazarde eyther the lyfe or at least the health of dyuers there Agayne for as much as other some being at the churche it is meete that other should be at home vppon occasyon of infantes and suche lyke thinges as require the presence of some to tary at home In these cases and suche lyke the inconueniences doe delyuer vs from the gilte of vncharitablenes and forsaking the fellowship of the church for that wee doe not heere seuere oure selues but are by good and iust causes seuered which gilte wee shall neuer escape if beside suche necessarye causes wee pretende those that are not or hauing not so muche as a pretence yet notwythstanding seperate our selues as the dayly practise thorough out the church doth shew But it may be obiected that in thys poynt the booke of Common prayer is not in fault which doth not only not forbid that all the church should receiue together but also by a good godly exhortation moueth those that be present that they should not departe but communicate altogether It is true that it doth not forbid and that there is godly exhortation for that purpose but that I say is not enough for neither should it suffer that three or foure should haue a communion by them selues so many being in the church meete to receiue and to whom the supper of the Lord doth of right appertaine it ought to prouide that those whych woulde wythdrawe them selues shoulde be by Ecclesiasticall discipline at all times and now also vnder a godly Prince by ciuill punishment brought to communicate wyth their brethren And thys is the law of God and thys is now and hath bene heeretofore the practise of churches reformed All men vnderstand that the passeouer was a figure of the Lords supper and that there should be as straight bonds to binde men to celebrate the remembrance of our spirituall deliuerance as there was to remember the deliuerance out of Egipt But whosoeuer did not then communicate with the rest at that time when the passeouer was eaten was excommunicated as it may appeare in the boke of Numbers where he sayeth that whosoeuer did not communicate being cleane his soule should be cut off from amongst the people of god Therfore thys neglect or contempt rather of the Lordes supper ought to be punished wyth no les punishment especially when as after the church hath proceeded in that order whych our sauior Christ appoynteth of admonishing they be not sory for their fault and promise
only betwene the prophets and apostles and prophane wryters as Aristotle and Plato but not betweene them whych speake not by the conduite and leading of the holy ghost but by the violent thrusting of the wicked spirite The replie vnto the next section in the. 82. and. 83. and. 84. page HEre master doctor would faine as it seemeth if he durst interpreat diligent preaching and preaching in season and out of scafon to be preaching once a monthe But because he dare not say so directly he compasseth it about and first putteth the case of one preaching twise a day verbally and with smal substance of matter and of another preaching but once in a monthe and dothe it pithily and orderly and discretely and concludeth that such a sermon once in a month is nearer the minde of the Apostle then all those other sermons made twise euery day yet the case is not so cleare as he maketh it For graunting that those whych he calleth verbal sermons haue some goodnes and edifying it must be very simple and slender meate whych is not better being geuen euery day then the best and daintiest meate once only in a moneth For wyth the one a man may liue although he be not lyking wyth the other he being once fed is afterwarde famyshed But howe if the case be put that the monethly and long laboured sermons as they are called haue as little and les good wholesome doctrine in them then the sermons whych are preached euery day Assuredly for the most of those that goe so long wyth a Sermon and whych I knowe and haue heard when they come to bryng it forthe bryngforthe oftentimes more winde and vnprofitable matter then any good and timely frute or wholesome substanciall doctrine And no maruell for therein the word of God is fulfilled whych declareth that the talents of Gods gifts and grace are encreased by continuall vse and laying oute of them and of the other side diminished and in the end taken quite away when as they are suffered to lye so long rusting and as it were digged in the ground And heere mayster Doctor taketh occasion to vtter hys stomacke againste London flinging of one syde agaynst the women of the other syde agaynst the ministers whose dilygence because it maketh maister Doctors neglygence more to appeare as a darcke and duskishe coloure matched wyth that whych is cleare and lightsome he dothe goe aboute to deface wyth the vntrue and flaunderous surmise of lose neglygent and vnprofytable preaching If there be some one such or two in London it is too great iniurye therfore to charge indefinitely the company of the ministers of London Besides that M. Doctor dothe not see howe firste he accuseth the byshop or euer he be aware bothe in ordaining suche ministers and not in reforming them being so farre out of order and then the archbyshop whych doth not require thys disorder at the byshops hande since as he sayeth thys is so goodly and heauenly an order to haue one byshop ouer many ministers and one archbyshop ouer diuers byshops And if we shall esteeme the pithynes and fastnes of preaching by the fruites as by the knowledge and feare of God in the people of London and by faithfull and true heartes towardes the prince and the realme I thinke that that whych he termeth friuolous lose and vnprofitable preaching will fall out to be waightier and to leaue a deeper printe behinde them then those monthly sermons whych he speaketh of and the ministers of London better ministers whych preache twise a day then those whych make the word of God nouell and dainties and as M. Latimer pleasantly sayd strawberies comming only at certen times in the yeare Of this thing M. Doctor speaketh againe in the. 167. page but to this effect altogither and almost in the same wordes To the next section being the rest of the. 84. page I minde to say nothing hauing before spoken of the faultes of the ceremonies and rites whych are vsed wyth vs. The replie vnto the next section contained in 86. 87. and. 88. pages AFter a number of woordes wythout matter sayings wythout proufes accusations wythout any groundes or likelyhode of groundes as that they be instrumentes of greedy guts and lustye roysters to maintaine them in their iolitye whych notwythstanding speake agaynste patronages and woulde haue the lyuings of the churche whych are idlely and vnprofitably spent for the most part applyed to the right vses of the pore and of ministers and schollers that they would be discharged from eyuill and ecclesiasticall subiection which humbly submitting them selues to the Queenes maiesty and all those that are sent of her would deliuer the churches and them selues for the churches sake from the vnlawfull domynion of one to the ende that they myght yelde them selues with their churches subiect to the lawfull ecclesiasticall gouernment of those which God hath appoynted in hys worde After I say a number of such and like accusations mixed wyth most bitter and reprochfull wordes vnto all which it is suffitient answer that quod Verbo dictum est Verbo sit negatum As easely denied as sayde He turneth hym selfe to those that be in authoritie whome he woulde make beleeue that it standeth vpon the ouerthrow of the church of relygion of order of the realme and of the estate of Princes and magistrates which are by this meanes established whose estates are made thys way most sure when as y true causes of these clamoures and outcryes that M. Doctor maketh is nothing else but the feare of the ouerthrow of that honor which is to the dishonor of God and ignominy of hys church and the establishing of that which maketh to the good dispensing of those goodes for the ayde and helpe of the church which now serue to oppresse it As for the court of faculties the corruptions therof being so cleare that all men see them and so grose that they which can not see may grope them M. Doctor answeareth that he knoweth not what it meaneth and therfore is moued of modesty to thinke the best of it which is but a simple shift For besides that the Admonition speaketh nothing of it but that the streates and high wayes talke of if there had bene any defence for it it is not to be thought that M. Doctor would haue bene so neglygent an aduocate as to haue omitted it seing if he were ignorant he might haue hadde so easely and with so little coste the knowledge of it As for hys modesty hys bolde asseueration of things which are doubtfull which are false which are altogether vnlikely which are impossible for hym to know doth suffyciently bewray and make so well knowne that no such visard or painting can serue to make men beleue that mere modesty shut vp his mouth from speaking for the court of faculties which hath opened his mouth so wyde for the defence of those things wherin as it falleth out he hath declared hymselfe to haue lesse
skill and vnderstanding then he hath of that court The reply vnto the next section in the. 89. 90. 91. 92. 93. pages WHereas vnto the Admonition prouing out of the thirde of S. Mathew that preaching muste goe before the mynistring of the sacramentes you answere first that it is agaynst all Logicke to conclude a generall rule vpon a particulare example you shall vnderstande that that which Iohn dyd in that poynt he dyd it not as a singular person or as the sonne of Ê’acharie but as the mynister of the gospell and therefore it appertayneth as well to all other mynisters as vnto hym For as it is a good conclusion that for so much as Peter in that he is a man is borne to haue and by common course of nature hath two legges therefore Iohn and Thomas and all the rest haue so euen so for so much as Iohn by reason of hys ministery had neede first to preach then to baptise it followeth that all others that haue that ministery committed vnto them must do the lyke Secondarely you say that it doth not appeare that he preached immediatly before he baptised them with water And yet S. Mathew after that he had shewed that he preached repentaunce which the other Euangelistes call the baptisme of repentance he addeth that then the people were baptysed of him which also may appeare in the Actes where S. Paule noteth thys order to haue bene kept For although betwene the story of hys preaching and that which is sayde of hys baptising there is interlaced a description of hys dyet and of hys apparel yet these wordes then came vnto hym c. must needes be referred vnto the tyme which followed hys preaching And where as you say that it is manyfest that our sauiour Christ was baptysed without preaching I would know of you what one worde doth declare that when as the contrary rather doth appeare in S. Luke which seemeth to note playnly that our sauiour Christ was baptised when the people were baptysed But the people as I haue shewed were baptysed immediatly after they heard Iohn preach therefore it is lyke that our sauiour Christ was baptysed after that he had heard Iohn preach And it is very probable that our sauiour Christ which dyd honoure the mynistery of God by the hand of men so farre as he would voutchsafe to bee baptysed of Iohn would not neglect or passe by hys mynistery of the word being more precious then that of the sacrament as it appeareth by Iohn that our sauiour Christ was present at hys sermons for so much as S. Iohn doth as he was preaching to the people poynt hym out with the finger and told them that he was in the middest of them which was greater then he And there is no doubt but those words which our sauiour Christ sayd before hys supper although they are gathered by the Euangelistes into short sentences were notwithstanding long sermons touching the fruite of hys death and vse and ende of that sacrament And thys order of preaching immedyatly before the mynistring of the sacramentes is continually noted of S. Luke throughout the whole story of the Actes of the Apostles But I will not precisely say neyther yet doe the authors of the Admonition affirme as M. Doctor surmyseth of them that there must be preaching immediatly before the admynistration of the sacramentes Thys I say that when as the lyfe of the sacramentes dependeth of the preaching of the worde of God there must of necessitie the worde of God bee not red but preached vnto the people amongste whom the sacramentes are mynistred And forasmuch as I haue proued before that no man may mynister the sacramentes but he which is able to preache the word although I dare not affirme that there is an absolute necessitie that the word should be preached immediatly before the sacramentes be mynistred yet I can imagine no case wherein it is eyther meete or conuenient or else almost sufferable that the sacramentes should be mynistred without a sermon before them for the mynister being as hee oughte of necessitie to bee able to preache oughte so to doe And if it be sayde that hys health or voyce will not serue hym sometymes to preache when he is able enough to mynister the sacramentes I say that eyther he ought to begge the helpe of an other mynister hard by or else there is lesse inconuenience in deferring the celebration of the sacrament vntill hee bee strong enough to preach then ministring it so maymedly and without a sermon wherby it is sene how iust cause M. Doctor hath to cal these blynde and vnlearned gatherings which he with hys Egles eye and hys great learning can not scatter nor once moue After thys M. Doctor accuseth the authors of the Admonition as though they simply condemned reading the scriptures in the church and thys accusation he followeth in many wordes and in dyners places wherein as in a number of other places of theyr booke the authors of the Admonition haue cause to renew that olde complaynt of Theodorus which is that whensoeuer any thing is sayde that is vnpleasant that is by and by expounded otherwyse then it is ment of hym that speaketh it so that that which is geuen with the ryght hand is receiued with the left For the authors of the Admonition declaring theyr vtter mislyking that there should be in stead of a preaching minister a reading mynister if I may so call hym and in stead of preaching reading are vntruely expounded of M. doctor as though they condemned all reading in the church And heere he maketh hym selfe worke picketh a quarell to blot a great deale of paper to proue that which no man denyeth for besydes thys treatise he speaketh afterward of it in halfe a score pages euen from the. 159. page vntill the. 1â—0 page and so lighteth vs a candel at noone dayes It is a token of a nature disposed to no great quietnesse which rather then he would not striue striueth with hym selfe And although the cause be iust and good which he defendeth yet I will note in a word or two how as though there were pitch or some worse thing in hys handes hee defyleth whatsoeuer he toucheth First therefore he asketh and so that he doth most boldly and confidently affirme it whether the word of God is not as effectual when it is red as when it is preached or whether reading be not preaching In which two questions although the one of them confuteth the other for so much as if reading be preaching as he sayeth then the comparyson of the profite and efficacy betwene one and the other is absurde yet I will answere to both I say therefore that the word of God is not so effectuall red as preached For S. Paule sayth that fayth commeth by hearing hearing of the word preached so that the ordinary and especiall meanes to worke fayth by is preaching and not reading And although reading
thys abuse and hys reason is because s. Paule speaketh there agaynst those that by fained excuses seeke to defraud the pastor of hys lyuing as who should say s Paule dyd not conclude that particulare conclusion thou shalt not by friuolous excuses defraud the minister wyth thys general saying God is not mocked for hys reason is God is not mocked at all or in any matter therfore he is not mocked in thys Or as who should say because our sauioure Christ saying that it is not lawfull to seperate that which God hath ioyned speaking of diuorce it is not lawfull to vse thys sentence being a generall rule in other thyngs when as we know it is as well and properly vsed agaynst the papists whych seuer the cup from the breade as agaynst the Iewes whych put away their wiues for euery small and trifeling cause And as for thys questioning it can be little better termed then a very trifeling and toying For first of all children haue not nor can not haue any fayth hauing no vnderstanding of the word of God I will not deny but children haue the spirite of God whych worketh in them after a wonderful fashion But I deny that they can haue faith which cometh by hearing vnderstandyng whych is not in them Secondarily if children could haue fayth yet they that present the childe can not precisely tell whether that particulare chylde hath fayth or no and therfore can not so absolutely answere that it beleeueth Because it is comprehended in the couenaunt and is the chylde of faythfull parents or at the least of one of the parents there is warrant vnto the presenters to offer it vnto baptisme and to the minister for to baptise it And further we haue to thinke charitably and to hope that it is one of the church But it can be no more precisely sayd that it hath fayth thē it may be sayd precisely elected for in dede it is all one to say that it is elect and to say it beleueth and this I thinke the authors of the admonition do meane when they say that they require a promise of the Godfather whych is not in them to performe Thirdly if bothe those thyngs were true that is that infantes had fayth and that it myght be precisely sayd y it beleeueth yet ought not the minister demaund thys of the childe whom he knoweth can not answer hym nor those that answer for the childe ought to demaund to be baptised when they neyther meane nor may be being already baptised But it is meete that all thyngs should be done grauely simply and plainly in the church And so if those other two thyngs were lawfull it ought to be done as seemeth to haue bene done in S. Augustines times when the minister asked those that presented the infant and not the infant whether it were faythfull and those whych presented answeared in their owne persons and not in the childes that it was faythfull For Godfathers there is no controuersy betwene the admonition and M. doctors boke whych appeareth not only in their corrections but plainly in the 188. page where they declare that they rather condemne the abuse whylest it is vrged more then greater matters and whych are in deede necessary thys being a thyng arbitrarie and left to the discretion of the church and whilest there is so euil choyse for the moste parte of Godfathers whych is expressedly mentioned of the admonition and whilest it is vsed almost for nothyng else but as a meane for one frende to gratify an other wythout hauing any regarde to the solempne promyse made before God and the congregation of seeing the childe broughte vp in the nurture and feare of the lord For the thyng it selfe consydering that it is so generally receyued of all the churches they do not mislike of it As for fonts I haue spoken of before both particularly in general But wheras M. doctor sayeth in the apostles times they baptised in no basins but in riuers common waters I wold know whether there was a riuer or common water in Cornelius and in the iaylors houses where Paul and Peter baptised To proue crossing in baptisme M. Bucers authority is brought I haue sayd before what iniury it is to leaue the publyke workes of Bucer and to flye vnto the Apochryphas wherin also they might driue vs to vse the like and to set downe lykewise hys wordes whych we finde in hys priuate letters But it is first of all to be obserued of the reader howe wyth what name those notes are called whych are cited of M. Doctor for the defence of these corruptions They are called by M. Doctors owne confession censures which word signifyeth and implyeth as muche as corrections and controlments of the booke of seruice and therefore we may take thys for a generall rule throughout the whole boke of seruice that in whatsoeuer thyngs in controuersy M. Doctor doth not bring Bucers authority to confirme them that those thyngs Bucer mislyked of as for example in priuate baptisme and communions ministred in houses for interrogatories ministred vnto infants such lyke for so much as they are not confirmed here by M. Bucers iudgemēt it may be thought that he mislyked of them and no doubt if eyther M. Bucers notes had not eyther condemned or mislyked of diuers thyngs in the seruice boke we should haue had the notes printed and set forthe to the full thys I thought in a word to admonishe the reader of Vnto M. Bucers authority I could heere opposemen of as great authority yea the authoritye of all the reformed churches whych shall also be done afterward And if there were nothyng to oppose but the worde of God whych will haue the sacraments ministred simply and in that sincerity that they be left vnto vs it is enoughe to make all men to couer their faces and to be ashamed if that whych they shall speake be not agreeable to that simplicity The reasons whych Bucer bryngeth I will answer whych in thys matter of crossing are two First that it is auncient and so it is in deede For Tertullian maketh mention of thys vsage and if thys be sufficient to proue the goodnesse of it then there is no cause why we should mislyke of the other superstitions and corruptious whych were likewyse vsed in those tunes For the same Tertullian sheweth that they vsed also at baptisme to taste of miike and hony and not to washe all the weeke after they had ministred baptisme But heere I will note the cause whervpon I suppose thys vse of crossing came vp in the primitiue church wherby shal appeare how there is no cause now why it shuld be retained if there were any why it should be vsed in the primitiue church It is knowne to all that haue red the Ecclesiastical stories that the heathen dyd obiect to the Christians in times past in reproche that the God whych they beleued of was hanged vpon a crosse And they
So M. Doctor wryte he careth not what he write Belike he thinketh the credite of hys degree of Doctorshyp will geue waight to that which is light and pithe to that which is froth or else he would neuer answere thus For then I will if thys be a good reason say that for so much as S. Luke doth not in that place describe the office of the pastor or byshoppe which preacheth the woorde therefore that place proueth not that in euery congregation there should be a byshop or a pastor Besides that M. Doctor taketh vp the authors of the Admonition for reasoning negatiuely of the testimony of all the scriptures and yet hee reasoneth negatiuely of one only sentence in the scripture For he would conclude that for so much as there is no duetie of a senyor described in that place therefore there is no duety at all and consequently no senyor Afterwardes he sayeth that for so much as thys place hath bene vsed to proue a pastor or byshop in euery church therfore it can not be vsed to proue these elders so that sayeth he there must needes be eyther a contradiction or else a falsification The place is rightly alledged for both the one and the other and yet neyther contradiction to them selues nor falsification of the place but only a must before M. Doctors eyes which will not let hym see a playne and euident truth which is that the word elder is generall and comprehendeth both those elders which teach and gouerne and those which gouerne only as hath bene shewed out of S. Paule And whereas M. Doctor sayeth that the place of the Corinthes may bee vnderstanded of cyuill magistrates of preaching mynisters of gouernoures of the whole churche and not of euery particulare churche and fynally any thing rather then that wherof it is in deede vnderstanded I say first that he styll stumbleth at one stone which is that he can not put a difference betwene the church and common wealth and so betwene the church officers which he there speaketh of and the officers of the common wealth those which are ecclesiasticall and those which are cyuill Then that he meaneth not the mynister which proacheth it may appeare for that he had noted them before in the worde teachers and last of all he can not meane gouernoure of the whole church onles he shoulde meane a Pope and if he will say he meaneth an Archbyshop which gouerneth a whole prouince besides that it is a bolde speach without all warrant I haue shewed before that the word of God alloweth of no such office and therefore it remayneth that it must be vnderstanded of thys office of Elders The same answere may be made vnto that which he sayeth of the place to the Romaines where speaking of the offyces of the church after that hee had set forth the office of the pastor and of the doctor he addeth those other two offices of the Churche whereof one was occupyed in the gouernement only the other in prouyding for the poore and helping the sicke And if besides the manifest words of the Apostle in both these places I shoulde adde the sentences of the wryters vpon those places as M. Caluin M. Beza M. Martyr M. Bucer c. It should easely appeare what iust cause M. Doctor hath to say that it is to daily with the scriptures and to make them a nose of waxe in alledging of these to proue the elders that all men might vnderstand what terrible outcryes he maketh as in thys place so almost in all other when there is cause that he shoulde lay hys hand vpon hys mouth Thys I am compelled to wryte not so much to proue that there were senyors in euery church which is a thing confessed as to redeame those places from M. Doctors false and corrupt interpretations And as for the proufe of elders in euery congregation besydes hys confession I neede haue no more but hys owne reason For he sayeth that the office of these elders in euery church was in that tyme wherein there were no christian magistrates and when there was persecution but in the Apostles tymes there was both persecution and no christian magistrates therefore in theyr tyme the office of these elders was in euery congregation I come therefore to the second poynt wherein the question especially lyeth which is whether thys function be perpetuall and ought to remayne alwayes in the churche And it is to be obserued by the way that where as there are dyuers sortes of aduersaryes to thys disciplyne of the church Maister Doctor is amongst the worst For there be that saye that thys order may be vsed or not vsed now at the lybertie of the churches But M. Doctor sayeth that thys order is not for these tymes but only for those tymes when there were no christian magistrates and so doth flatly pinch at those churches which hauing christian magistrates yet notwithstanding retayne thys order still And to the ende that the vanitie of thys distinction which is that there oughte to bee senyors or auncientes in the tymes of persecution and not of peace vnder tyrantes and not vnder christian magistrates may appeare the cause why these senyors or auncientes were appoynted in the church is to bee consydered which must needes be graunted to bee for that the pastor not being able to ouersee all hym selfe and to haue hys eyes in euery corner of the church and places where the churches aboade might be helped of the auncientes Wherin the wonderfull loue of God towards hys church doth manifestly appeare that for the greater assurance of the saluation of hys dyd not content hym selfe to appoynt one only ouerseer of euery church but many ouer euery church And therefore seeing that the pastor is now in the tyme of peace and vnder a christian magistrate not able to ouersee all hym selfe nor hys eyes can not bee in euery place of the paryshe present to beholde the behauiour of the people it followeth that as well now as in the tyme of persecution as well vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant the office of an auncient or seignior is required Onles you will say that God hath lesse care of hys church in the time of peace and vnder a godly magistrate then he hath in the tyme of persecution and vnder a tyrant In deede if so bee the auncientes in the tyme of persecution and vnder a tyrant had medled with any office of a magistrate or had supplyed the roume of a godly magistrate in handling of any of those things which belonged vnto hym then there had bene some cause why a godly magistrate being in the church the office of the senior or at least so much as he exercised of the office of a magistrate shuld haue ceased But when as the auncient neither dyd nor by any meanes might meddle with those things which belonged vnto a magistrate no more vnder a tyrant thē vnder a godly magistrate there is no reason why
our honoures or our commodities and wealth but as I haue sayd our lyues ought not to be deare vnto vs For therefore doth hee make mention of the confession of Christ vnto the death that he might shew vs an example and forthwith speaketh of God which rayseth from the dead that by thys meanes he might comfort Timothe if he should be brought into any trouble for the defence of any of these things Fourthly if we refer those wordes without spot or blemish vnto the commaundement as I for my part thinke they ought to be then there is a waight in these words not to be passed ouer which is that the apostle will not only haue the rules heere contayned not troden vnder the feete or broken in peeces but hee will not haue them so much as in any one small poynt or specke neglected But I see how M. Doctor will wype away all thys and say that these thinges or some of them were to bee obserued thus necessarily and precisely vntill there were christian prynces and peace in the churche but the print is deeper then that it will bee so washed away Therefore it is to be obserued what he sayeth in the latter end of the sentence where he chargeth Timothe and in hym all that hee should keepe all these things not vntill the tyme of peace or to the times of Christian Princes but euen vntill the comming or appearing of our sauiour Christ which is as long as the world lasteth And therfore I conclude that the seigniors or elders of the church being a part of that order and gouernment of the church which S. Paule appoynteth in thys Epistle are necessary perpetuall and by no meanes to be changed So that we haue not only now the examples of all the primitiue churches which ought to moue vs if there were no commaundement but we haue also a straight commaundement I say the onely examples ought to moue vs for what way can we safelyer follow then the common hygh way beaten and troden by the steps of all the Apostles and of all the churches Things also growing and being preserued by the same meanes by the which they were ingendred why shoulde we thinke but that the churches now will prosper by that gouernment whereby it first came vp But I say we haue not only the examples of the churches but wee haue also commaundement and strayght charge to keepe thys office of elders and auncientes in the church and therefore it is not onely rashnesse in leauing the way that the Apostles and churches by the Apostles aduise haue gone but disobedyence also to depart from theyr commaundement and to mayntayne and defend that we may doe so I can almost geue it no gentler name then rebellion Now I will come to Mayster Doctors reasons which he hath in the hundreth and fourteene and a hundred and fifteene pages where he graunteth that there were elders in euery church in tymes past but sayth that it ought not now so to bee For sayeth hee the tymes alter the gouernment and it can not be gouerned in the tyme of prosperitie as in the tyme of persecution vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant Thus he sayeth but sheweth no reason bringeth no proofe declareth not how nor why prosperity will not beare the Elders as well as persecution neyther why they may not be vnder a godly prince as well as vnder a tyrant onles thys be a reason that because the godly prince doth nourishe the church as a cyuill magistrate therefore the auncientes may not nourish it as Ecclesiasticall ouerseers Now seeing Maister Doctor can shew vs no cause why they may not as well be now as in the tyme of the Apostles as well vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant I will shew hym that although they be alwayes necessary yet there is better cause why they should rather be now then in the apostles times greater necessyty vnder a christian prince then vnder a tyrant First of all in the apostles tymes it is knowne that the giftes of the spirite of wisedome discretion knowledge enduring of trauaile were poured forth more plentifully then euer they were eyther before or shall be after By reason whereof the pastoures and mynisters of the churches that were then were I speake generally and of the estate of the whole Church better furnyshed with the giftes needefull for their mynistery then are the mynisters of these dayes Wherupon I conclude that if the ayde and assistance of the pastor by the Elders was thought necessary by the apostles in those tymes when the mynisters were so well and so richly replenished with such giftes much more is that ayde and assistance meete for the mynisters of these dayes wherein their giftes of discretion and knowledge and dyligence are not so plentifull For if they whose eye sight was so cleare to perceiue whose handes so nimble to execute had neede for their ayde of other eyes other handes then the mynisters now whose eyes are dimmer and hands heauier then theirs were haue much more neede of thys ayde then they had Agayne if S. Paule dyd charge the persecuted therefore pore churches with the fineding and prouiding for the senyors in euery church as it appeareth in the Epistle to Timothe where he sayeth that Elders whiche rule well are worthy double honour whereby he signifyeth a plentifull rewarde and suche as may be fully sufficient for them and their housholdes as when he biddeth that the widdow which serued the churche in attending vpon the sicke and vppon the straungers shoulde be honoured that is haue that wherewyth shee might honestly and soberly liue if I say Saynt Paule woulde charge the churches then with mayntayning the elders which being poore were not sometimes hable to liue without some reliefe from the church because they were compelled oftentimes to leaue their owne affaires to wayte of the affaires of the church how much more ought there now to be senyors when the churches be in peace and therefore not so pore and when there may be chosen such for the most part thoroughout the realme as are able to liue without charging the church any whit as the practise of these dayes doth manifestly declare And if S. Paule that was so desirous to haue the gospell adapanon that is free and without charges as much as is possible and so loth to lay any burthen vpon the churches especially those which were poore dyd notwithstanding enioyne the mayntenaunce of the elders vnto the churches poore and persecuted how much more shall we thincke that hys mynde was that the Churches which liue in peace and are rich and may haue thys office without charge ought to receiue thys order of auncientes Moreouer those that be learned know that the gouernement of the church which was in the apostles tymes being partly in respect of the people that had to doe in the elections and other things popular partly in respect of the pastors and auncientes Aristocraticall that
for the excommunication By whych testimonies besydes the institution of God the practise of the churches in the apostles times appeareth manifestly what hath ben the vse of the churches touchyng excommunication as long as there was any purity in the church And it is to be obserued heere that bothe in thys parte of the discipline and also in all other partes of it as I haue shewed as in harder and difficulter causes thyngs were referred vnto the Synodes prouincial nationall or generall as the case required so if the elders of any church shall determine any thing contrary to the worde of God or inconueniently in any matter that falleth into their determination the partyes whych are greeued may haue recourse for remedy vnto the elders and pastoures of dyuers churches that is to say vnto Synodes of shires or dioceses or prouinces or nations of as great or of as small compasse as shall be thought conuenient by the church according to the difficulty or waight of the matters whych are in controuersy Whych meetings ought to be as often as can be conueniently not only for the decision of suche difficultyes whych the seuerall presbyteries can not so well iudge of but also to the ende that common counsell myght be taken for the best remeady of the vices or incommodities whych eyther the churches be in or in daunger to be in And as those thyngs whych can not be decided by the Eldershyp of the churches are to be reserued vnto the knowledge of some Synode of a shire or diocese so those whych for their hardnesse can not be there decided must be brought into the Synodes of larger compasse as I haue shewed to haue bene done in the apostles times and in the churches whych followed them long after These thyngs standing in thys sorte all those Courtes of byshoppes and archbyshoppes must needes fall whych were by Antichrist erected against thys lawfull iurisdiction of Eldership as the courte of faculties and those whych are holden by chauncellors commissaries officials and suche lyke the describyng of the corruptions wherof would require a whole boke of whych I will note the principall heads and summes First for the they enter into an offyce whych pertaineth not vnto them but to euery particulare church and especially to the eldershyp or gouernoures of the church and therfore although they should do nothing but that whych were good lawfull and godly yet can they not approue their labors vnto men much les to God puttyng their sickle in an other mannes harnest For neyther by the truthe of the worde of God dothe that appertayne vnto them neyther by M. Doctors owne iudgement if hys yea were yea and hys nay nay consydering that he sayd before that thys iurisdiction belongeth to the ministers And although it should pertaine vnto the Byshop as he is called to whom notwythstanding it dothe not appertaine yet were it not lawfull for hym to translate thys office vnto an other and to appoynt one to doe it when he lysteth no more then he can appoynt them to doe hys other offyces of ministring as preaching the worde and ministring the sacraments An other thyng is that in these courts whych they cal spiritual they take the knowledge of matters which are meere ciuil therby not only peruerting the order whych God hath appoynted in seuering the ciuill causes from the ecclesiasticall but iustling also wyth the ciuill magistrate and thrusting hym from the iurisdiction whych appertaineth vnto hym as the causes of the contracts of mariage of diuorces of willes testaments with diuers suche other like things For although it appertaine to the church and the gouernors therof to shew out of the word of God whych is a lawfull contract or iust cause of diuorce and so forthe yet the iudiciall determination and definitiue sentences of all these do appertaine vnto the ciuill magistrate Heerevnto may be added that all their punishments almost are penalties of mony whych can by no meanes appertaine to the church but is a thyng meerely ciuill Thirdly as they handle matters whych do not appertain vnto the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction so those whych do appertaine vnto the church they do turne from their lawfull institution vnto other ends not sufferable whych M. doctor hym selfe doth confesse in excommunicating for money c. Last of all they take vpon them those thyngs whych are neyther lawful for ciuill nor ecclesiasticall iurisdiction nor simply for any man to doe of whych sorte diuers are reckened vp by the admonition and same confessed by M. Doctor I will not heere speake of the vnfitnes of those whych are chefe offycers in these courts that the most of them are eyther papists or bribers or drunkardes I know what I wryte or epicures and such as liue of benefices and prebends in England or in Ireland doing nothing of those things whych appertaine vnto them and of other suche naughty persons whych are not only not meete to be gouernors in the church but whych in any reformed church shoulde not be so much as of the church I speake not of all I doubt not but there be some do the whych they do of conscience and with minde to healpe forwarde the Churche whych I trust will when the Lorde shall giue them more knowledge keepe them selues in their vocations and being men for their giftes apte and able either to serue the Church or the common wealth in some other calling will rather occupye theyr gifts there then where they haue no grounde to assure them selues that they doe please god Now I will take a short suruey of that whych M. doctor alleageth to proue his offices of master of faculties chancellors c. First he sayth in the 117 page out of the Ancyran councel that there were vicars of bishops wher although y name be not foūd of chācclors c. yet there is sayth he the office What vicar s Paules B. may haue and in what case I haue shewed before where I haue proued the necessary residence of euery pastor in his flock But I will note heere how M. Doctor both goe about to abuse hys reader in these vicares And first where there were three editions of which one only maketh mention of these vicares he tooke that left the other which is to be obserued for that thys varietie of editions rose of the diuers vnderstanding of the greke word chorepiscopos which may be taken eyther for hym that is byshop for an other and in hys place or for hym that is byshop in the country that is in some towne which is no citie so that chorepiscopus was opposed vnto the byshop which was of some citie And if it be so taken then here is no proofe for the vicarse of byshoppes But howsoeuer it be it shall appeare that the names of chauncelors and chorepiscopos doe not so much differ as the offices and functions of them For it appeareth in the same Councell and Canon that they were like the. 70. disciples
Phillippyans and of the Actes for although it be not there sayd that the deacons were in euery church yet for so muche as the same vse of them was in all churches which was in Ierusalem at Philippos and for that the Apostles as hath bene before touched laboring after the vniformitie of the church ordeyned the same officers in all churches the proofe of one is the proofe of all and the shewing that there were deacōs in one church is the shewing in all The place which they alledge out of the first to Timothe is of all other most proper for S. Paule there describing not how the church of Ephesus but simply and generally how the church must be gouerned reckneth there the order of deacons Whereunto may be added the contynuall practise of the church long after the Apostles times which appeareth by the often superscriptions and subscriptions in these words the byshop elders and deacons of such a church and vnto the byshop elders and deacons of such a church And by that it is so often times sayd in the councelles where the churches assembled y there were so many byshops so many elders so many deacons The thirde poynt in thys deaconship is whether it be a necessary office in the church or for a tyme only which controuersy shoulde not haue bene if M. Doctors english tong had bene agreable with hys latin For in a certayne latin pamphlet of hys whereof I spake before he maketh the deaconship a necessary office and such as ought not to be taken out of the church here he singeth a nother song There because he thought the necessitie of the deacon made for hym he wold nedes haue deacons here because it maketh agaynst hym he sayth there is no neede of them wherby appeareth how small cause there is that M. Doctor should vpbrayde the authors of the admonition with mutability and discord with them selues But that thys office is durable and perpetuall it may appeare by that which I haue alledged before out of the sixt of Timothe for the necessitie of elders for the argumentes serue to proue the necessitie of those orders which are there set forth whereof the deacon is one And where as M. Doctor sayth that euery church is not hable to fynde a curate as he termeth hym and a deacon I haue before shewed intreating of the senyors that the churches in the Apostles tymes might best haue sayd thys being poore and persecuted althoughe I see not why the church may not haue a deacon or deacons if moe be needefull with as small charges as they may haue a collector or collectors There remayneth to speake of the widdowes which were godly poore women in the church aboue the age of 60. yeares for the auoyding of all suspition of euill which might rise by slaunderous tonges if they had bene yonger These as they were norished at the charges of the church being poore so dyd they serue the church in attending vpon poore strangers and the poore which were sicke in the church whereof they were widdowes Now although there is not so great vse of these widdowes with vs as there was in those places where the churches were first founded and in that tyme wherein thys order of widdowes was instituted part of the which necessity grew both by the multitude of straungers through the persecution by the great heate of those east countries whereupon the washing supplyng of their feete was required yet for so much as there are poore which are sicke in euery church I doe not see how a better and more conuenient order can be deuised for the attendance of them in their sicknes other infirmities then thys which S. Paule appoynteth that there shuld be if there can be any gotten godly poore widdowes of the age which S. Paule appoynteth which should attend vpon such For if there be any such poore widdowes of that age destitute of all friendes it is manifest that they must needes liue of the charge of the church seing they must nedes do so it is better they shuld do some duety for it vnto the church agayne thē the church should be at a new charge to finde others to attend vpon those which are sicke destitute of keepers seing that there can be none so fit for that purpose as those women which S. Paule doth there describe so that I conclude that if such may be gotten we ought also to kepe that order of widowes in the church still I know y there be lerned men which thinke otherwise but I stand vpon the authoritie of Gods worde and not vppon the opynions of men be they neuer so well learned And if the matter also shoulde be tryed by the iudgement of men I am able to shew the iudgement of as learned as thys age hath brought forth which thinketh that the institution of widdowes is perpetuall and ought to be where it may be had and where such widdowes are founde In deede they are more rare now then in the Apostles tymes For then by reason of the persecution those which had the gift of continency dyd abstayne from mariage after the death of their husbandes for that the sole lyfe was an easyer estate and lesse daungerous and chargeable when they were driuen to flye then the estate of those which were maryed Vnto all the rest vntill the ende of the first part of the admonition I haue answered alredy Yet there is a poynt or two which I must touch wherof the first is in the. 126. page where he would beare men in hand that the authors of the admonition and some other of theyr mynde would shut out the cyuill magistrate and the Prince from all authoritie in Ecclesiastical matters which surmise although I see it is not so much because eyther he knoweth or suspecteth any such thing as because he meaneth heereby to lay a bayte to entrappe with all thinking that where he maketh no conscience to geue he careth not what authority to Princes we will be loth to geue more then the word of God will permit wherby he hopeth to draw vs into displeasure with the Prince yet for because he shall vnderstande we norish no opynions secretly which we are ashamed to declare openly and for that we doubt not of the equitie of the prince in thys part which knoweth that although her authoritie be the greatest in the earth yet it is not infinite but is lymitted by the word of God and of whome we are perswaded that as her maiesty knoweth so shee will not vnwillingly heare the truth in thys behalfe these things I say being considered I answere in the name of the authors of the admonition and those some other which you speake of that the Prince and cyuill magistrate hath to see that the lawes of God touching hys worshippe and touching all matters and orders of the church be executed dewly obserued to se that euery Ecclesiasticall person do that office whereunto he is
appoynted and to punish those which fayle in their office accordingly As for the making of the orders cerimonyes of the church they doe where there is a constituted and ordered church pertayne vnto the mynisters of the church and to the ecclesiastycall gouernoures and that as they meddle not with the making of cyuill lawes and lawes for the common wealth so the cyuill magistrate hath not to ordayne cerimonies pertayning to the churche But if those to whome that doth appertayne make any orders not meete the magistrate may and ought to hynder them and dryue them to better for so much as the ciuill magistrate hath thys charge to see that nothing be done agaynst the glory of God in hys domynion Thys distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not nor hath not heard of let him looke in the. 2. booke of the Chronicles he shall see that there were a number appoynted for the matters of the Lord which were priestes and leuites and there were other also appoynted for the Kinges affaires and for matters of the common wealth amongst which were the Leuites which being more in number then coulde be applyed to the vse of the churche were set ouer cyuill causes being therefore most fit for that they were best learned in the lawes of God which were the politicke lawes of that countrey There he may learne if it please hym that the making of orders and geuing of iudgementes in cyuill and Ecclesiasticall in common wealth and church matters pertayned vnto dyuers persons which distinction the wryter to the Hebrewes doth note when he sayeth that the Priest was ordayned in things pertayning to God. Thys might Maister Doctor haue learned by that whiche the noble emperor * Constantine attributeth to the fathers of the Nicene councell and to the Ecclesiasticall persons there gathered which he doth also permit the Byshops Elders and Deacans of churches to doe eyther by correcting or adding or making new if neede be And by the contynuall practise of the church in the tyme of christian Emperors which alwayes permitted vnto the mynisters assembled in councelles as well the determynation of controuersies which rose as the making or the abolyshing of needefull or hurtfull cerimonies as the case required Also by the Emperoures epistle in the first action of the councell of Constantinople where by the epistle of the Emperor it appeareth that it was the manner of the Emperoures to confirme the ordinaunces which were made by the mynisters and to see them kept The practise of thys he myght haue also most playnly seene in Ambrose who wold by no meanes suffer that the causes of the churches should be debated in the Princes consistory or court but would haue them handled in the church by those that had the gouernment of the church and therefore excuseth hym selfe to the emperour Valentinian for that being conuented to answere of the church matters vnto the ciuill court he came not And by whome can the matters and orders of the church bee better ordayned then by the mynisters of the church And if that be a good reason of Maister Doctor in the fortie and seuenth page that the Byshoppes ought therefore to ordayne mynisters because they are best hable to iudge of the learning and habylitie of those which are the fyttest it is also as good reason that therefore the mynisters and gouernours of the church should appoynt and decree of such ceremonyes and orders as pertayne to the church for because it is to be supposed that they can best iudge of those matters bestowing theyr studyes that wayes and further best vnderstanding the estate of the church about the which they are wholy occupyed And this is not Maister Doctor to shake handes with the papistes For the papistes would exempt their priestes from the subiection and from the punyshment of the cyuill magistrate which we doe not And the papistes would that whatsoeuer the cleargy doth determyne that that forthwith should be holden for good and the Prince should be forthwith compelled to mayntayne and set forth that bee it good or euill without further inquiry but wee say that if there bee no lawfull mynistery to set good orders as in rumous decayes and ouerthrowes of relygion that then the Prince ought to doe it and if when there is a lawfull mynistery it shall agree of any vnlawfull or vnmeete order that the Prince ought to stay that order and not to suffer it but to driue them to that which is lawfull and meete And if thys be to shake handes with the papistes then Maister Doctor is to blame which hath taught vs once or twise before that the appoynting of ceremonies of the church belongeth vnto the church And yet I know that there is one or two of the later wryters that thinke otherwise but as I take no aduauntage of their authoritie which thinke as I doe so I ought not to be preiudiced by those that thinke otherwise But for so much as we haue M. Doctor yet of thys iudgement that the church ceremonies shoulde bee ordayned by the church I will trauaile no further in thys matter consydering that the practise of thys church commonly is to referre these matters vnto the ecclesiasticall persons only thys is the difference that where it is done now of one or a few wee desire that it may be done by others also who haue interest in that behalfe The other poynt is in the hundreth thirty and eyght page where hee most vntruely and slaunderously chargeth the authors of the Admonition and maketh wonderfull outcryes of them as though they should deny that there hadde beene any reformation at all sythens the tyme that the Queenes maiestye began to raigne manyfestly contrary not onely to theyr meaning but also to theyr very words which appeareth in that they moue to a thorough reformation to contende or to labour to perfection denying only that the reformation which hath bene made in her maiesties dayes is thorough and perfect We confesse willingly that next vnto the Lorde God euery one of vs is most deepely bounde vnto her maiesty whome he hath vsed as an excellent instrument to delyuer his church heere out of the spirituall Egipt of popery and the common wealth also and the whole lande out of the slauery and subiection of straungers whereunto it was so neare Thys I say we willingly confesse before men and do in our prayers dayly geue most humble thankes to God therefore And by thys humble sute and earnest desire whiche wee haue for further reformation we are so far from vnthankfulnes vnto her maiesty that we thereby desire the heape of her felicitie the establishment of her royal throne amongst vs which then shall be most sure and vnremoued when our sauiour Christ sytteth wholy and fully not only in hys chayre to teach but also in hys throne to rule not alone in the heartes of euery one by hys spirite but also generally and in the visible gouernment of hys church by
him that inueigheth against any pastor without good cause beare the punishment as for inueighing against heaping of liuing vpon liuing and ioyning steeple to steeple and non residence and suche ambition and tiranny as beareth the sway in diuers Ecclesiasticall persons if the price of the pacification be the offending of the Lorde it is better you be displeased then God be offended To the. 16. VVe stay our selues wythin the bonds of the word of God we profes our selues to be of the nombre of those whych should * grow in knowledge as we do in age and whych labor that the image of God may be daily renewed in vs not only in holynes of life but also in * knowledge of the truthe of God and yet I know no question moued which hath not ben many yeares before in other churches reformed holden as truthe and therefore practised and in our churche also haue bene some yeares debated To the. 17. If we defende no falshoode or inconuenient thing we can not be counted stubborne or wilfull whereof we offer to be tried by the indifferent reader For waiwardnes and inhumanitie we thincke it a fault as we esteme godly societie and affabilitie to be commendable and what is our behauior herein we likewise referre to their iudgementes wyth whome we are conuersant and haue to doe wyth being misseiudged and vntruly condemned of you we iudge nor condemne no man their vices we condemne so farre forth as the listes of our vocation doe permit vs. To the. 18. We allowe of common weales as without which the church can not long continue we speake not against ciuill gouernment nor yet against ecclesiastical further then the same is an enemy to the gouernment that God hath instituted To the. 19. If we geue honor and reuerence to none let vs not only haue none again but let vs be had as those that are vnworthy to liue amongst men I feare there be of those whych are your fauourers Ecclesiasticall persons that if they shuld meete wyth my Lord Mayor of London would straine curtesye whether he or they should put of the cap first We geue the titles of Maiestie to the Queene our soueraigne of grace to Duke and Duches of honor to those whych are in honoure and so to euery one according to their estate If we misse it is not because we are not willing but because we knowe not alwayes what pertaineth vnto them and then our faulte is pardonable For answearing churlishly it is answeared before in the seuenth Article To the. 20. VVith acknowledging of our manifold wants and ignorances we dout not also to take vpon vs with thanks geuing that knowledge which God hath geuen to euery of vs according to the measure of fayth we seke not to please oure selues but the Lord and our brethren yea all men in that whych is good VVe reuerence other mens gifts so as we thinke the contempt of them redoundeth to the giuer Therfore although the common infection be in vs yet we hope pride doth not * raigne in our mortall bodyes To the. 21. VVe hold that it is no ministers part to chuse his owne place where he will preach but to tary vntill he be chosen of others Likewyse that he insinuate not hym selfe but abide a lawfull calling and therfore thys can not agree to vs but to those rather whych content themselues wyth a rouing and wandering mynistery and defend the ministers owne presenting and offering him selfe or euer he be called To the. 22. and. 23. I answer as to the fifthe and touching the. 23. refer the reader to a further answer in that place where occasion is offered to speake of it againe To the. 24. So farre forth as we may for the infirmities wherwyth we are enclosed we endeuor to adorne the doctrine of the gospell whych we profes we seeke not the admiration of men if God do geue that we haue honest report we thyncke we ought to maintaine that to the glory of God and aduancement of the gospel what is our straightnes of life any other then is required in all christians we bryng in I am sure no Monachisme or Anchorisme we eate and drynke as other men we liue as other men we are apparelled as other men we lye as other men we vse those honest recreations that other men doe and we thincke there is no good thing or commodity of life in the world but that in sobriety we may be partakers of so farre as our degree and calling will suffer vs as God maketh vs able to haue it For the hipocrisy that you so often charge vs wyth the day shall try it If any man ioyne wych vs with minde to contende it is against our will notwithstanding we knowe none and what great stirrers and contenders they be whych fauor thys cause let all men iudge To the two next sections Do you thincke to mocke the worlde so that when you haue so vniustly so hainously accused you may wipe your mouth and say as you did before that you will not accuse any and as now that you will leaue the application Is not this to accuse to say that the authors of the Admonition doe almost plainly professe Anabaptisme is not thys to apply to say that they agree wyth the Anabaptists in all the fornamed practises and qualities You would faine strike vs but you would do it in the night when no man should see you and yet if you haue to do against Anabaptists you neede not feare to proclaime your warre against them You haue a glorious cause you shall haue a certaine victorye I dare promisse you that you shall haue all the estates and orders of this realme to clappe their handes and sing your epinicia and triumphant songs But that you would conuey your sting so priuely and hissingly as the Adder doth it carieth with it a suspition of an euill conscience and of a worse cause then you make the world beleeue you haue From moreouer c. vnto To conclude Now you cary vs from the Anabaptists in Europe vnto the Donatists in Affrike you wil paint vs with their coloures but you want the oyle of truth or likelyhode of truth to cause your colours to cleaue to endure The Lord be praised that your breath although it be very ranke yet it is not so strong that it is able either to turn vs or chaunge vs into what formes it pleaseth you I shal desire the reader to loke Theod. lib. 4. De fabulis haereticorum and Augustine ad quod vult Deum and in his first and second bokes against Petilians letters where he shall finde of these heretikes that by comparing thē wyth these to whom M. Doctor likeneth thē the smoke of this accusation might the better appeare for these slanders are not worth the answering To this diuision from the churches and to your supposed conuenticles I haue answeared They taught that there were no true churches but in Affrica
they declare manifest tokens of vnrepentantnes and then as rotten members that doe not onlye no good nor seruice in the bodye but also corrupt and infect others cut them off And if they do profit in hearing then to be adioyned vnto that church whych is next the place of their dwelling To the fifte in the. 45. page If there be no churches established because there are no christian Magistrates then the churches of the Apostles were not established And it is absurd to say that the ministers nowe wyth the helpe of the magistrate can laye surer foundations of the church or build more cunningly or substancially then the Apostles could whych were the master builders of the church of god And as for the consummation of the body of the church and the beautie of it seeing it consisteth in Iesus Christe whych is the heade that is alwayes ioyned vnseperably in all times of the crosse and not the crosse wyth his body whych is the church I can not see why the churches vnder persecution should not be established hauing bothe the foundation and the nether most partes as also the toppe and hyest parte of the churche as well as those whych haue a christian magistrate If in deede the magistrate whom God hath sanctified to be a nurse vnto his churche were also the head of the same then the church could not be established wythout the magistrate but we learne that although the godly magistrate be the head of the common wealth and a great ornament vnto the church yet he is but a member of the same The churche maye be established wythoute the magistrate and so that all the world and all the Deuilles of hell can not shake it but it can not be in quiet in peace and in outwarde suretie wythout a godly magistrate And therefore the churche in that respecte and suche like praiseth God and prayeth for the magistrate by the whych it enioyeth so singulare benefites Therevppon you conclude that the church was then populare whych is as vntrue as the former parte For the churche is gouerned wyth that kinde of gouernment whych the Philosophers that wryte of the best common wealthes affirme to be the best For in respecte of Christe the heade it is a Monarchie and in respecte of the auncientes and pastoures that gouerne in common and wyth like authoritie amongste them selues it is an Aristocratie or the rule of the best men and in respecte that the people are not secluded but haue their interest in churche matters it is a Democratie or a populare estate An image whereof appeareth also in the pollicye of thys Realme for as in respecte of the Queene her maiestie it is a Monarchie so in respecte of the moste honourable Counsell it is an Aristocratie and hauing regard to the Parliament whych is assembled of al estates it is a Democratie But you should haue shewed howe this difference of hauing a christian magistrate hauing none ought to bryng in a diuersity in the choise of the pastoure by their churche It were not harde if one woulde spende hys time so vnprofitably to finde oute a hundred differences betweene a persecuted church and that whych is in peace but seeing you can shewe me no reason why the church may not chuse her minister as well vnder a godly magistrate as vnder a tyrante I will shewe you howe that if it were lawfull to breake the order of God it were meeter in the time of persecution that the election shoulde be in some other discreate and learned persons hands to be made without the consent of the churche then in that time when there is a godly magistrate and that it is then most conuenient that he should be chosen by the church In the time of persecution a churche chuseth an vnlearned minister or one that is wicked in life howsoeuer it be he is vnfit the churches rounde about by their ministers or elders admonishe this church of her fault and moue to correct it the church will by no meanes be admonished what can nowe the other churches do in the time of persecution if they excommunicate the whole churche it is a hard matter yet if they may do that there is all they can do the euil is not remedied whych may be easely taken awaye where there is a godly magistrate and the churche as is before sayde compelled to a better choyse so you see that there are inconueniences in the chusing of the pastor and other the gouernors of the churche by the churche in the time of persecution whych are not in the time of peace vnder a christian magistrate Now I wil shew you which thinke that the consent of the church in their minister can not stand with the time of a christian magistrate that it hathe not only stode but hath bene cōfirmed in their times and by them In codice Iustiani it is thus wrytten following the doctrine of the holy Apostles c. we ordaine that as often as it shall fall out that the ministers place shall be voyde in any citie that voyces be geuen of the inhabiters of that city that he of three which for their right faith holines of life and other good things are most approued should be chosen to the Byshoprike whych is the moste meete of them Also Carolus Magnus whych was the first Germaine Emperoure in 63. distinct sacrorum canonum sayth being not ignorante of the holy Canons that the holy churche in the name of God should vse her honoure the freelyer we assent vnto the Ecclesiasticall order that the byshops be chosen by election of the cleargye and people according to the statutes of the canons of that diocesse In the. 63. distinction it appeareth that Ludouicus Carolus hys sonne decreed that he should be bishop of Rome whom all the people of Rome should cōsent to chuse Platina also in the life of pope Adrian 2. writeth that Ludouike the seconde by hys letters commaunded the Romaines that they shoulde chuse their owne bishop not loking for other mennes voyces whych being straūgers could not so well tell what was done in the common weale where they were straungers and that it appertained to the Citizens The same Platina witnesseth in the life of Pope Leo the. 8. that whē the people of Rome were earnest with the Emperoure Otho the first that he wold take awaye one Pope Iohn that liued very licentiously and riotously and place an other the same Emperoure answeared that it pertained to the cleargye and people to chuse one and willed them that they shoulde chuse and he woulde approue it and when they had chosen Leo and after put hym out wythout cause and chose one Pope Benet he compelled them to take Leo agayne Whereby appeareth that in those estates where Magistrates were Christian and where the estate was moste of all Monarchicall that is subiecte to ones gouernment that thys vse of the Churche remained and was confirmed by the Emperours and also when the churche put