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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A77858	An humble examination of a printed abstract of the answers to nine reasons of the House of Commons, against the votes of bishops in Parliament. Printed by order of a committee of the honourable House of Commons, now assembled in Parliament.	Burges, Cornelius, 1589?-1665.	1641 (1641)	Wing B5672; Thomason E164_14; ESTC R21636	38,831	83

the Reason is not abated Next what a scandall to Bishops is it that even since the Reformation begun in Edward the sixth his time the Bishops all the Bishops should oppose the restauration thereof in the beginning of Queene ELIZABETH after an interruption of scarce five yeares and an halfe Surely if Bishops can so farre degenerate in so short a time they are hardly to bee trusted with Voting in Parliament for any long continuance especially in an age of such a postatising of the most and warping of the best IX REASON of the House of Commons BEcause Bishops being Lords of Parliament it setteth too great a distance betweene them and the rest of their Brethren in the Ministery which occasioneth pride in them discontent in others and disquiet in the Church ANSVVER This is an Argument from Morall Philosophy which affords no Demonstrations All are not proud that Vote in Parliament nor discontented which are not so imployed This Argument fights onely against their Title of being LORDS which is not the Question at this time And were those Brethren so wise and well affected as they might be they would rejoyce rather that some of their owne profession are advanced to those places wherein they may bee capable upon all occasions of doing good offices to them and to this whole Church EXAMEN The first note is but a peece of mirth which is but little Demonstration of any great Morality in a Cause so serious If all bee not proud that vote in Parliament they have the more cause to be thankfull to God that keepes them humble in so great a temptation Yet usually all be not humble who say they are not proud Proud men of all others will be least knowne of Pride The Reason doth not say that all are proud who Vote but only that such high dignity not meet for them occasioneth pride and I hope it will not bee denyed by a Bishop to be a rule of Divinity as well as of Morall Philosophy that apparent and experienced occasions of sinne must bee avoyded as well as the sinne it selfe Besides this Answerer takes no notice of the maine basis of the Argument which is that this setteth too great a distance betweene the Bishops and the rest of their Brethren And to say truth there was no great Reason why hee should considering the Principles of Prelates which will never suffer them to subscribe to the truth of such a Proposition They never thinke the distance to be too great betweene themselves and the inferiour Clergie And the neerer to parity the neerer to Heresie Yet because this is an opinion not very fit to bee spoken out it was good policy to passe over this branch in silence and it were superfluous to labour in the asserting of that which the Answer doth not gain-say And though all bee not discontented that are not so imployed for some of them are Chaplaines Dependants Expectors Pretenders to the like places and so cannot but rejoyce to see them on Cock-Horse who will they hope one day give them the hand to lift them up behind them Yet there bee many moe who have more cause of just discontent at the infinite clation intolerable pride and boundlesse passions of some of the Bishops who looking up to their owne Lordly Titles doe take it for a part of their honour to looke downe upon their poore brethren with so much superciliousnesse as if they were not brethren but servants yea slaves ad servitutem natos Tiberius Tacit as Hee said of his subiugated fellow Senators of Rome Before this Lording in Parliament came up the old Rule among Bishops was Con. Carthag 4. ca. 34. Episcopus in quolibet loco sedens stare Presbyterum non patiatur But that Canon is now 1240. yeares old and so may well be forgotten Now it is well if he may after long atttendance bee admitted into the presence of a Bishop where he must stand bare headed while the Bishop sits or perhaps lyes along in State And whereas before they were not ashamed to call and honour them as Brethren now they have other names for them Dunce Asse Foole Iack Rogue Scotish spirited rascall any thing that a tongue set on fire of Hell can belch out Lo here the goodly fruit of Episcopacie advanced to the heigth of Peerage in Parliament and wel were it for many of them and their poore Clergie if this were the worst and greatest cause of griefe and discontent administred by the Bishops to many grave Godly painefull peaceable Ministers whose heavie burdens are presented in multitudes of Petitions to the present Parliament and therefore I forbeare to relate them But where it is said that this Argument of the House of Commons fights only against their Title of Lords the Answer misreports it For it marcheth not fighteth against them as Lords of Parliament now if to be a Lord in Parliament and to Vote as Peeres there be not the same thing the Answer is worthy of Consideration otherwise it can expect no entertainment but neglect The House of Commons did purposely use this phrase here because the very Reason it selfe is grounded partly upon the Title yet so as that they consider a Bishop as a Peere admitted to Vote in Parliament These two are convertible and equipollent expressions He is a Lord of Parliament Ergo he Votes He Votes in Parliament Ergo a Lord of Parliament And this Lordship in Parliament is that which lifts him up so high above his brethren as makes him to be and they to fare the worse all dayes of his life Wherefore to conclude all such is my folly that I know not what wisedome or good affection it were for those Brethren to rejoyce much to see any of their owne Profession to bee exposed to so great temptations by being advanced to that place which is so farre from rendring them capable or apt to doe good offices to either Church or State as that it makes them more unapt unto and uncapable of doing any good at all either in Parliament Pulpit or Consistory For it puts them out of their Calling unapts them for the proper worke of it and is not seldome secretly followed by the just judgment of GOD with a spirit of coldnesse and benumdnesse of those excellent parts wherewith many of them before abounded with a spirit of giddinesse in point of judgment with a spirit of contempt of those Ordinances which formerly they prized in point of affection with a spirit of pride over their brethren in point of behaviour with a spirit of persecution of the power of godlinesse in point of jurisdiction and with a spirit of opposition to the perfect Reformation of this whole Church See the close of last precedent Answer in point of Legislative power in Parliament ERGO Bishops ought not to Vote in Parliament FINIS Pag. 2. l. 28. after acceptat there should be a short line thus as implying some words omitted which in the Author be interposed p. 4. l. 7. r. indicare p. 26. l. 5. r. avocation p. 34. l. ult r. 18. ibid. in Mar. dele 1317. r. M. 17. p. 63. l. 14. r. could p. 75. l. 25. r. nati

in 25. Edward 3. for Bishops intermedling in Civill Affaires because it is there said That the holy Church of England was founded in the estate of Prelacy within the Realme of England by the Kings Ancestors and other of the Nobility to inform them and the People of the Law of God and to make hospitalities almes and other works of Charity in the places where the Churches were founded c. and for this end their Lands revenues c. were assigned by the said founders to the Prelates c. And the said Kings in times past were wont to have the greatest part of their Councel for the safeguard of the Realme when they had need of such Prelates and Clerks so advanced c. This last Clause doth only prove de facto that so it was used but doth not legitimate the use all stories of those times being full of complaints against the mischiefes which arose out of it And that very Statute declares the prime end of advancing the Clergy into an Hierarchy was to counsell the Kings and others in the Law of God not in Civill and Martiall matters And so far is such intermedling in Secularibus from being countenanced by the Lawes of this Kingdome that by the common Law which is the most fundamentall Law of the Realme all in holy Orders are so carefully exempted from such incumbrances that if any Clergy man happen to be put into a temporall Office he must upon the pleading of his Orders have a Writ awarded him out of the Chauncery to discharge him Regist 187.6 Therefore it was farre from the intention of the first Founders of our Hierarchie to imploy them in Civilibus but only to make use of their counsell in Spirituals There is yet one thing more much insisted upon by some of the Prelates to prove the lawfulnesse of their intermedling in Secular Matters And it is a passage of Saint Augustine De opere Monachor Cap. 29. where hee saith It were farre more profitable for him to spend his time in reading and praying Quàm tumultuosissimas perplexitates causarum alienarum pati de negotiis secularibus vel judicando dirimendis vel interveniendo praecidendis 1 Cor. 6. quibus nos molestiis idem afflixit Apostolus non utique suo sed ejus qui in eo loquebatur arbitrio Ergo say some Bishops they have warrant so to doe yea a command from the Apostle and from the Spirit of God himselfe To this it may be answered 1. That in that very place St. Austin doth bemoane this as being Ecclesiarum quibus servit consuetudo the custome of those Churches and the practice began after Constantine made a law to warrant it for S Aust there saith that Paul never submitted to it nay rather he gave order to make them Iudges that were meanest and had least to doe And albeit St. Austin there addes that this toyle he undertooke non sine consolatione Domini in spe vitae aeternae ut fructum feramus cum tolerantia Yet this was not spoken as rejoycing in the imployment but as bearing it with more cheerefulnesse in hope of eternall life after it 2. As for the imployment it selfe he complaines violenter irruptum est non permitter ad quod volo vacare ante meridiem post meridiem occupationibus hominum teneor Epist 110. Possidon in vit Augustini ca. 19. and Possidonius that lived with him many yeares beares him witnes that hanc suam a melioribus rebus occupationem tanquā angariam deputabat Therefore it was that in Ep. 110. he desired the people that they would suffer him to put over all those businesses to Eradius whom he had chosen to be his successor in his Bishoprick which when the people had granted the good old Father presently unburdened himselfe Ergo fratres quicquid est quod ad me perferebatur ad illum perferatur ubi necessarium habuerit consilium meum non negabo auxilium 3. If this be not enough let me answer Bishops Treat Of Christian Subjection and Antichristian Rebellion par 3. by a Bishop viz by Bishop Bilson who being pressed with that place of Saint Austin de opere Mon by the Popish crue under the name of Philander a Iesuite returnes this answer under the veile of Theophilus an Orthodoxe Divine a Truth it is the Bishops of the Primitive Church were greatly troubled with those matters * And I have shewed before upon what occasion Prefat in Dial. not as ordinary Iudges of these causes but as Arbiters elected by consent of both parties And I could requite you with Gregories own words of the same matter in the same place quod certum est nos non debere which it is certaine we ought not to doe But yet I thinke so long as it did not hinder their Vocation and Function though it were troublesome unto them they might neither in charity nor in duty refuse it because it tended to the preserving of peace and love amongst men And the Apostle had licensed all men to choose whom they would for their Iudges no doubt meaning that they which were chosen should take the paines to heare the cause and make an end of the strife But it is one thing to make peace betweene brethren as they did by hearing their griefes with consent of both sides and another to claime a judiciall interest in those causes in spite of mens hearts Thus he and how home this comes to our Bishops that will needs still contest and strugle to retaine their Votes in Parliament in all civill causes whatsoever undervaluing all the Reasons of the House of Commons and contrary to the just desires of the whole body of the Kingdome I need not use more words to declare To finish this point All that hath beene said against the Clergies intermedling with Civill and Temporall affaires other than for necessary and comfortable provisions for Lively hood drives to this Conclusion that if it be so great an hinderance to the exercise of the Ministerial Function to be imployed in temporall matters which are but ordinarie it must needs be a farre greater hinderance to that holy calling for Bishops to Vote in Parliament because they cannot doe it as it ought to bee done without so much skill and dexterity in secular affaires of all sorts that possibly can come within the debate and resolution of a Parliament as must needs take up the greatest part if not the whole of a mans time study strength and abilities bee they never so great and many to fit him for that great service altogether beside I might adde inconsistent with his Calling of the Ministery 2. ANSWER to the first REASON It is propter majus bonum Ecclesiae EXAMEN Cujus contrarium c. What good they have done in Parliament for the Church unlesse to uphold the Synagogue of Rome let all Histories speake that have taken any notice of the acting and carriage of matters of Religion debated and Voted in

forraigners The Bishops fretted but durst not complaine When the King saw their timorousnes and the whole Kingdome heightned up to such a degre of discontent that they threatned to cast off their obedience to the King if he tooke not order to case them The letters Articles are set downe at large in Math. Paris in Hen. 3. pag 927. c. edit Lond. Anno. 1571. a Parliament was called the King the Nobility Prelates Commons all complained of the unsupportablenesse of the burden drew up their greivances into seaven severall Articles foure letters were conceived and sent with these greivances to the Pope one from the Bishops a second from the Abbots a third from the Nobility and Commons and the fourth from the King himselfe but to little purpose The Pope still went on although sometimes more favourably and other times more violently as the times would suffer No marvell then if Bishops and Abbots in Parliament were so willing to be over-borne by the votes of the temporall Lords in passing the Statute of Provisors of benefices in 25. Edw. 3. and against suitors to the Popes Consistory and receiving of Citations from Rome in 38. Ed. 3 And against the farming of any Benefices enjoyed by Aliens by the Popes Collation or conveing of mony to them 3. Ric. 2 3. And against Going out of the Realme to procure a Benefice in this Realme in 12 Ric. 2.15 And for confirmation of the Statute de provisoribus among the Statutes called Other Statutes made at Westminster in 13. Ric. 2. ca. 2. The like may be said of the Statute of Provision in 2. Hen 4.4 of first fruites to Rome more than usuall 6 H. 4.1 Of moneys carryed to Rome and confirmation of all Statutes against Provisors c. 9. Hen. 4 8. To say nothing of that famous Statute in 26. Hen. 8.21 which gave the Pope a deeper wound than all the Acts that had been before Now alas poore Bishops that they were so over-voted that they could not hinder such Lawes as those made in their favour and for the rescuing of them from the Italian horse-leeches No doubt the Bishops laboured stoutly to withstand these Acts and therefore no marvaile that they be so carefully instanced in or pointed unto by the Answerer to shew how easily Bishops may bee over-voted in Parliament and how soon emergent exorbitancies of their Iurisdiction may be there curbed redressed Or rather indeed to shew how unable Bishops bee to withstand the passing of a bill which they desire with all their hearts may bee enacted or which they know the King wil have to be enacted But otherwise I cannot understand his reason in vouching of them unlesse he meant to make his Readers some mirth See now how hee winds up this long Answere ANSVVER So as this Argument doth not so much hurt the votes as it quells the courage of the Bishops who may justly feare by this and the next Argument that the taking away of their Votes is but a kind of fore-runner to the abolishing of their Iurisdiction EXAMEN Indeed if we take the scantling of the hurt done to their Votes by the instances produced in this Answer the hurt is so little that the adventure will not bee great if they meet with other Bills in Parliament of like nature wherin the Temporall Lords shall happen to over-vote them In those Statutes before mentioned I doe not finde the Clergy so much as named It is probable they durst not appeare for those Acts for feare of the Pope but rather suffered them to passe by the Temporall votes that they might the better excuse it at Rome and enjoy the benefit with more security at home when the Temporalty alone were so ready to doe it to their hands Iust so it was in Henry the thirds time when the Pope had compelled the Bishops to ratifie all the Grants of payments to Rome made by K. Iohn whereby the Bishops were so cast betweene the mil-stones as to be ready to be ground to powder yet durst not appeare against their oppressor they Good men were forced by the King and Parliament much against their wills Si placet to be rescued out of his hands without any labour of their owne when first the King professed se contra infirmos illos et timidos Episcopos pro Regni libertate staturum Antiq. Britan. in Bonif. nec censum deinceps ullum Romanae curiae praestiturum And afterward when the whole Parliament ordered the Bishops and Abbots to write to his Holinesse that which with all their hearts they would if they durst have done of themselves for obtaining ease of the burthens that lay upon them as hath been touched before So that now this Argument doth little quell their courage if they meet with no greater discouragements than by the answerer hath been set forth Rather the Answere teacheth them the way how to prevaile by being overcome and to bring about their owne ends and yet sit still or seeme to be the greatest opposers of that which in secret they most desire and underhand doe most labour for But truly it is to me no lesse than a riddle that there should be any just cause of feare unlesse unto them who are apt to feare wher no feare is that there is any thing in this Argument tending to the Abolishing of Episcopal Iurisdiction when the Reason expresly supposeth no more but a Bill to passe for the Regulation of their power upon any emergent inconvenience by it Verily there is more cause of feare on the other side that if the mention of a bill for regulating the power of Bishops shall be interpreted a plot to ruine their Iurisdiction which now is so exorbitant their Case comes very neere to that of old Rome Liv. Hist Dec. 1. which as Livy observes could noe longer stand under the vices committed in it nor endure the remedies applied to it 8. REASON of the House of Commons Because the whole number of them is interessed to maintaine the jurisdiction of Bishops which hath beene found so greivous to the three Kingdomes that Scotland hath utterly abolished it multitudes in England and Ireland have petitioned against it ANSVVER This Argument is not against the Votes of Bishops but against Episcopacy it selfe which must bee removed because Scotland hath done so and some in England and Ireland would have it so And yet peradventure ten times as great a somme as these desire the contrary Against this a 2 fold Answer is offered EXAMEN This Argument is expresly against their votes for maintaining their Iurisdiction to which by their Order they are all bound as all other societies bee to maintaine their Priviledges and it is not bent against Episcopacy it selfe And yet this suggestion is a witty invention both to winde out of the strength of this Reason and to cast a blurre upon it at the farewell The House of Commons could not but see even an impossibility of reforming by bill the