himselfe is by casting his load vpon my backe as if J had brought him by former cōferences out of hope that any fruit would ever come of conferring with me Loath J am to rip vp those conferences whereof he maketh but a slippery loose relation In one of them the question betweene vs was whether the perswasion of faith concerning remission of sinnes eternall life whatsoever God doth promise vnto man be as free from doubting as the perswasion which we haue by sence concerning things tasted selt and seene For the negatiue J mentioned their example whose faith in Scripture is most commended and the experience which all faithfull men haue continually had of themselues For proofe of the affirmatiue which he held J desiring to haue some reason heard no thing but All good writers oftentimes inculcated At the length vpon request to see some one of them Peter Martyr's common places were brought where the leaues were turned downe at a place sounding to this effect that The Gospell doth make Christians more vertuous then morall Philosophie doth make Heathens which came not neere the question by many miles 22 In the other conference hee questioned about the matter of reprobation misliking first that I had tearmed God a permissiue and no positiue cause of the evil which the schoolemen doe call malum culpae secondly that to their obiection who say If I be elected do what I will I shall be saued I had answered that the will of God in this thing is not absolute but conditionall to saue his elect beleeuing fearing and obediently serving him Thirdly that to stop the mouthes of such as grudge repine against God for reiecting castawaies J had taught that they are not reiected no not in the purpose and counsell of God without a foreseene worthinesse of reiection going though not in time yet in order before For if Gods electing do in order as needs it must presuppose the foresight of their being that are elected though they be elected before they bee nor only the positiue foresight of their being but also the permissiue of their being miserable because electiō is through mercy and mercy doth alwaies presuppose miserie it followeth that the very chosen of God acknowledge to the praise of the riches of his exceeding free compassion that when he in his secret determination set it downe Those shall liue and not die they lay as vglie spectacles before him as lepers covered with dung mire as vlcers putrified in their fathers loines miserable wor thie to be had in detestation shall any forsaken creature be able to say vnto God Thou didst plunge me into the depth and assigne me vnto endlesse torments onely to satisfie thine owne will finding nothing in mee for which J could seeme in thy sight so well worthie to feele everlasting flames 23 When J saw that Mr Travers carped at these things only because they lay not open J promised at some cōvenient time to make them cleere as light both to him and all others Which if they that reproue mee will not grant me leaue to doe they must thinke that they are for some cause or other more desirous to haue me reputed an vnsound man then willing that my sincere meaning should appeare and be approued When J was farther asked what my groundes were J answered that Saint Paules wordes concerning this cause were my groundes His next demaunde what Author J did followe in expounding Saint Paule and gathering the doctrine out of his words against the iudgement he saith of All Churches and All good writers I was well assured that to controule this over-reaching speech the sentences which I might haue cited out of Church confessions togither with the best learned monuments of former times and not the meanest of our owne were mo in number then perhaps he would willingly haue hard of but what had this booted me For although he himselfe in generalitie do much vse those formall speeches All Churches and All good writers yet as he holdeth it in pulpit lawful to say in generall the Painims thinke this or the Heathens that but vtterly vnlawfull to cite anie sentence of theirs that say it so hee gaue mee at that time great cause to thinke that my particular alleadging of other mens words to shew their agreement with mine would as much haue displeased his minde as the thing it selfe for which it had beene alleadged For he knoweth how often hee hath in publique place bitten me for this although I did never in any sermon vse many of the sentences of other writers and do make most without any having alwaies thought it meetest neither to affect nor to contemne the vse of them 24 He is not ignorant that in the very entrance to the talke which we had privatly at that time to proue it vnlawfull altogither in preaching either for confirmation declaratiō or otherwise to cite any thing but mere canonicall scripture he brought in The scripture is given by inspiration and is profitable to teach improue c. Vrging much the vigour of these two clauses The man of God and every good worke If therefore the worke were good which he required at my hāds if privatly to shew why I thought the doctrin I had delivered to be according to S. Paules meaning were a good worke can they which take the place before alleaged for a law condemning every man of God who in doing the worke of preaching any way vseth humane authoritie like it in mee if in the worke of strengthning that which I had preached I should bring forth the testimonies and the sayings of mortall men I alleaged therfore that which might vnder no pretence in the worlde bee disallowed namelie reasons not meaning thereby my own reason as now it is reported but true sound divine reason reason whereby those conclusions might be out of S. Paule demonstrated and not probably discoursed of only reason proper to that science whereby the things of God are knowne Theologicall reason without principles in scripture that are plaine soundly deduceth more doubtfull inferences in such sort that being hard they cannot be denyed nor any thing repugnāt vnto them received but whatsoever was before otherwise by miscollecting gathered out of darke places is thereby forced to yeeld it selfe and the true cōsonant meaning of sentences not vnderstoode is brought to light This is the reason which I intended If it were possible for mee to escape the Ferula in any thing I do or speak I had vndoubtedly escaped it in this In this I did that which by some is inioined as the only allowable but granted by all as the most sure and safe way whereby to resolue things doubted of in matters appertaining to faith and christian religion So that Mr Travers had here smal cause given him to be weary of conferring vnlesle it were in other respects then that poore one which is here pretended that is to say the little hope hee had of doing mee any good by conference
Church and made themselues to be thought indisposed to the present estate and proceedings The wordes haue reference as it seemeth vnto some such things as being attempted before my comming to the Temple went not so effectually perhaps forward as hee which devised them would haue wished An order as I learne there was tendred that Communicants should neither kneele as in the most places of the Realme nor sit as in this place the custome is but walk to the one side of the Table and there standing till they had receiued passe afterwardes away round about by the other Which being on a sudden begun to be practised in the Church some sat wondering what it should meane others deliberating what to doe till such time as at length by name one of them being called openly thervnto requested that they might do as they had bin accustomed which was granted and as M. Travers had ministred his way to the rest so a Curate was sent to minister to them after their way Which vnprosperous beginning of a thing saving only for the inconvenience of needles alterations otherwise harmelesse did so disgrace that order in their conceipt who had to allow or disallow it that it tooke no place For neither they could ever induce themselues to thinke it good it so much offended Mr Travers who supposed it to be the best that he since that time although contented himselfe to receiue it as they do at the hands of others yet hath not thought it meete they should ever receiue it out of his which woulde not admit that order of receiving it and therefore in my time hath beene alwaies present not to minister but only to be ministred vnto 6 Another order there was likewise devised but an order of much more waight and importance This soile in respect of certaine immunities other specialties belonging vnto it seemed likely to bear that which in other places of the Realme of Englād doth not take For which cause request was made to some of her Maiesties Privie Counsell that whereas it is provided by a statute there should be collectors sidemen in Churches which thing or somewhat correspondent vnto it this place did greatly want it would please their HH to motion such a matter to the Ancients of the Temple And according to their honorable manner of helping forward al motions so grounded they wrote their letters as I am informed to that effect Wherevpon although these houses never had vse of such collectors sidemen as are appointed in other places yet they both erected a box to receiue mens devotion for the poore appointing the Treasurer of both houses to take care for bestowing it where neede is and graunting further that if any could be intreated as in the end some were to vndertake the labour of observing mens slacknesse in diuine duties they should be allowed their complaints hard all times and the faults they complained of if Mr Alveyes priuate admonition did not serue then by some other meanes redressed but according to the old received orders of both houses Whereby the substance of their H. letters were indeed fully satisfied Yet because Mr Travars intēded not this but as it seemed an other thing therefore notwithstanding the orders which haue beene taken and for any thing I know do stand still in as much force in this Church now as at any time heretofore Hee complaineth much the good orders which he doth meane haue beene withstood Now it were hard if as many as any way oppose vnto these and the like orders in his perswasion good doe thereby make themselues to be thought dislikers of the present state and proceedings If they whom he aimeth at haue any otherwise made thēselues to be thought such it is likely he doth know wherein and will I hope disclose to whom it appertaineth both the persons whō he thinketh the causes why he thinketh them so ill affected But whatsoever the men be doe their faults make me faulty They do if I ioine my selfe with them I beseech him therefore to declare wherein I haue ioined with them Other ioining then this with any man here I cānot imagin It may be I haue talked or walked or caten or interchangeably vsed the duties of common humanitie with some such as he is hardly perswaded of For I know no law of God or man by force whereof they should be as Heathens and Publicans vnto me that are not gracious in the eies of another man perhaps without cause or if with cause yet such cause as he is privie vnto and not I. Could he or any reasonable man thinke it a charitable course in me to obserue them that shewe by externall courtesies a favorable inclination towards him and if I spy out any one amongst them of whom I thinke not well herevpon to draw such an accusation as this against him and to offer it where hec hath given vp his against me Which notwithstanding I will acknowledge to be iust and reasonable if hee or any man liuing shall shew that I vse as much as the bare familiar companie but of one who by word or deede hath euer giuen me cause to suspect or coniecture him such as here they are tearmed with whom complaint is made that I ioine my selfe This being spoken therefore written without all possibilitie of proofe doth not Mr Travers giue me over great cause to stand in some fear least hee make to little conscience how hee vseth his tongue or penne These things are not laide against me for nothing they are to some purpose if they take place For in a minde perswaded that I am as he deciphereth me one which refuse to be at peace with such as embrace the truth side my selfe with men sinisterly affected therevnto any thing that shal be spoken concerning the vnsoundnes of my Doctrine cannot chuse but be favorably entertained This presupposed it will haue likelyhood enough which afterwardes followeth that many of my Sermons haue tasted of some sower leaven or other that in them he hath discovered sundrie vnsound matters A thing much to be lamented that such a place as this which might haue beene so well provided for hath falne into the hands of one no better instructed in the truth But what if in the end it be found that hee iudgeth my words as they do colours which looke vpon them with greene spectacles and thinke that which they see is greene when indeed that is greene whereby they see 7 Touching the first point of his discovery which is about the matter of Predestination to set down that I spake for I haue it written to declare and confirme the severall branches thereof would be tedious now in this writing where I haue so many things to touch that I can but touch them only Neither is it herein so needfull for me to iustifie my speech when the verie place aud presence where I spake doth it selfe speake sufficiently for my cleering This matter was not broached in a
blind Alley or vttered where none was to heare it that had skill with authoritie to controll or covertly insinuated by some glyding sentence 8 That which I taught was at Paules Crosse it was not hudled in amongst other matters in such sort that it could passe without noting it was opened it was proued it was some reasonable time stood vpon I see not which way my L. of London who was present and heard it can excuse so great a fault as patiently without rebuke or controlement afterwardes to heare any man there teach otherwise then the word of God doth not as it is vnderstood by the privat interpretation of some one or two men or by a speciall construction receaued in some few bookes but as it is vnderstood by all Churches professing the Gospell by them all and therefore even by our owne also amongst others A man that did mean to proue that he speaketh would surely take the measure of his words shorter 9 The next thing discovered is an opinion about the assurance of mens perswasion in matters of faith J haue taught he saith That the assurance of things which we beleeue by the word is not so certaine as of that we perceiue by sence And is it as certaine Yea J taught as hee himselfe J trust will not deny that the things which God doth promise in his word are surer vnto vs then anything we touch handle or see but are we so sure certaine of them if we bee why doth God so often proue his promises vnto vs as hee doth by arguments taken from our sensible experience Wee must be surer of the proofe then of the thing proved otherwise it is no proofe How is it that if ten men doe all look vpon the moone every one of them knoweth it as certainely to be the moon as another but many beleeving one and the same promises all haue not one and the same fulnesse of perswasion How falleth it out that men being assured of any thing by sence can bee no surer of it then are whereas the strongest in faith that liveth vpon the earth hath alwaies need to labour and striue and pray that his assurance concerning heavenly and spirituall things may grow increase and be augmented 10 The Sermon wherein J haue spoken somewhat largely of this point was long before this late cōtroversie rose betweene him and me vpon request of some of my friends seene read by many amongst many some who are thought able to discerne and J never heard that any one of them hitherto hath condemned it as containing vnsound matter My case were very hard if as oft as any thing J speake displeasing one mans tast my doctrine vpon his only word should bee taken for sower leven 11 The rest of this discoverie is all about the matter now in question wherein hee hath two faults predominant which would tyre out any that should answer vnto every point severally vnapt speaking of schoole controversies and of my wordes sometimes so vntoward a reciting that hee which should promise to drawe a mans countenance and did indeed expresse the parts at leastwise the most of them truly but perversely place them could not represent a more offensiue visage then vnto me my owne speech seemeth in some places as he hath ordered it For answere wherevnto that writing is sufficient wherein J haue set down both my words and meaning in such sort that were this accusation doth depraue the one and either misinterpret or without iust cause mislike the other it will appeare so plainely that J may spare very well to take vpon me a new and a needlesse labour here 12 Only at one thing which is there to be found because Mr Travers doth here seeme to take such a speciall advantage as if the matter were vnanswerable hee constraineth me either to detect his oversight or to confesse mine owne in it In setting the question betweene the Church of Rome and vs about Grace and Iustification least J should giue them an occasion to say as commonly they doe that when wee cannot refute their opinions we propose to our selues such insteed of theirs as we can refute J tooke it for the best and most perspicuous way of teaching to declare first how far we doe agree and then to shew our disagreement not generally as Mr Travers his words would carrie it for the easier fast ning that vpon me wherwith saving only by him J was never in my life touched but about the matter only of iustificatiō for farther J had no cause to medle at that time What was then my offence in this case I did as hee saith so set it out as if wee had consented in the greatest and waightiest points differed onely in smaller matters Jt will not bee found when it commeth to the ballance a light differēce where we disagree as I did acknowledge that we doe about the very essence of the medicine wherby Christ cureth our disease Did J goe about to make a shew of agreement in the waightiest points and was J so fond as not to conceale our disagreement about this J doe wish that some indifferencie were vsed by them that haue taken the waighing of my words 13 Yea but our agreement is not such in two of the chiefest points as J would haue men beleeue it is and what are they The one is J said They acknowledge all men sinners even the blessed Virgin though some of thē free her from sinne Put the case J had affirmed that onely some of them free her from sinne and had delivered it as the most currant opinion amongst them that shee was conceaued in sin doth not Bonaventure say plainely Omnes ferè In a manner all men doe hold this both he not bring many reasons wherefore all men should hold it Were their voices since that time ever counted and their number found smaller which hold it then theirs that hold the contrary Let the question then be whether J might say the most of them acknowledged all men sinners even the blessed Virgin her selfe To shew that their generall receiued opinion is the contrarie the Tridentine Councell is alleaged peradventure not altogether so considerately For if that Councell haue by resolute determinatiō freed her if it hold as M. Travers saith it doth that shee was free from sin then must the Church of Rome needs condemne thē that holde the contrarie For what that Councell holdeth the same they all doe and must hold But in the Church of Rome who knoweth not that it is a thing indifferent to thinke and defend the one or the other So that by this argument the Councell of Trent holdeth the Virgin free from sinne Ergo it is plaine that none of them may and therefore vntrue that most of them doe acknowledge her a sinner were forcible to overthrowe my supposed assertion if it were true that the Councell did hold this But to the end it may clearely appeare how it neither holdeth this nor
but also for other reformed Churches even Geneva it selfe for they haue the like to change or take that away which cannot but with great inconvenience be observed In the meane while the breach of it may in such consideration be pardoned which truly I wish howsoever it be yet hardly defended as long as it stan deth in force vncanceld 19 Now whereas he confesseth another way had beene more convenient and that he found in himselfe secret vnwillingnesse to doe that which he did doth hee not say plainely in effect that the light of his owne vnderstanding proved the way he tooke perverse crooked reason was so plaine and pregnant against it that his mind was alienated his will averted to another course yet somewhat there was which so farre over-ruled that it must needs bee done even against the very streame what doth it bewraie Finally his purposed protestation whereby hee meant openly to make it knowne that he did not allow this kind of proceeding and therefore would satisfie men otherwise and deale no more in this place sheweth his good mind in this that he meant to stay himselfe from further offending but it serueth not his turne Hee is blamed because the thing he had done was amisse his answer is That which I would haue done afterwards had beene well if so bee I had done it 20 But as in this hee standeth perswaded that hee hath done nothing besides dutie so hee taketh it hardly that the high Commissioners should charge him with indiscretion Wherefore as if hee could so wash his hands he maketh a long and a large declaration concerning the carriage of himselfe how he waded in matters of smaller waight and how in things of greater moment how warily he dealt how naturally he took his things rising from the text how closely he kept himselfe to the Scripture he tooke in hand how much paines he tooke to confirme the necessity of beleeving iustification by Christ only and to shewe how the Church of Rome denyeth that a man is saved by faith alone without workes of the Law what the sonnes of thunder would haue done if they had beene in his case that his answere was verie temperate without immodest or reproachfull speech that when he might before all haue reproved me he did not but contented himselfe with exhorting me before all to follow Nathans example and revisit my doctrine when hee might haue followed S. Paules example in reproving Peter he did not but exhorted me with Peter to endure to be withstood This testimonie of his discreet carrying himselfe in the handling of his matter being more aagreeably framed giuen him by an other then by himselfe might make somwhat for the praise of his person but for defence of his action vnto them by whom he is thought vndiscreet for not conferring privatly before he spake will it serue to answere that when he spake he did it consideratly He perceiveth it will not and therefore addeth reasons such as they are As namely how he purposed at the first to take an other course and that was this publiquely to deliver the truth of such doctrine as I had otherwise taught and at convenient opportunitie to conferre with mee vpon such points Is this the rule of Christ If thy brother offend openly in his speech controule it first with contrary speech openly and conferre with him afterwards vpon it when convenient opportunitie serveth Is there anie law of God or of man wherevpon to ground such a resolution any Church extant in the world where teachers are allowed thus to do or to be done vnto He cannot but see how weake an allâ—gation it is when hee bringeth in his following this course first in one matter and so afterwards in another to approue himselfe now following it againe For if the very purpose of doing a thing so vncharitable be a fault the deed is a greater fault and doth the doing of it twise make it the third time fit and allowable to bee done The waight of the cause which is his thirde defence relieveth him as little The waightier it was the more it required considerat advise and consultation the more it stood him vpoÌ„ to take good heed that nothing were rashlie done or spoken in it But hee meaneth waightie in regard of the wonderfull danger except hee had presently withstood me without expecting a time of conference This cause being of such moment that might preiudice the faith of Christ incourage the ill affected to continue still in their damnable waies and other weake in faith to suffer themselues to be seduced to the destruction of their soules he thought it his bounden duetie to speake before hee talked with me A man that shoulde read this and not know what I had spoken might imagine that I had at the least denied the Divinitie of Christ. But they which were present at my speech and can testifie that nothing passed my lips more then is coÌ„tained in their writings whom for soundnes of doctrine learning iudgment Mr Travers himselfe doth I dare say not only allow but honor they which hard and doe know that the doctrine here signified in so fearefull manner the doctrine that was so dangerous to the faith of Christ that was so likely to encourage ill affected men to continue still in daÌ„nable waies that gaue so great cause to tremble for fear of the present destruction of Soules was only this I doubt not but God was mercifull to saue thousands of our Fathers living heretofore in popish superstitions in as much as they sinned ignorantly and this spoken in a sermon the greatest part whereof was against poperie they will hardly be able to discerne how Christianity should herewith be so grievously shaken 21 Whereby his fourth excuse is also taken from him For what doth it boot him to saie The time vvas short wherein he was to preach after me when his preaching of this matter perhaps ought surely might haue bin either very well omitted or at the least more conveniently for a while differd even by their iudgements that cast the most favourable aspect towards these his hasty proceedings The poyson which men had taken at my hands was not so quicke and strong in operation as in eight daies to make them past cure by eight daies delay there was no likelyhood that the force and power of his speech could dy longer meditation might bring better and stronger proofes to mind then extemporall dexteritie could furnish him with and who doth know whether time the only mother of sound iudgement and discreet dealing might haue given that actioÌ„ of his some better ripenesse which by so great festination hath as a thing borne out of time brought small ioy vnto him that begat it Doth hee thinke it had not beene better that neither my speech had seemed in his eies as an arrow sticking in a thigh of flesh nor his own as a child whereof he must needs bee delivered by an houre His last way of disburdening
25 Yet behold his first reason of not complaining to the high Commission is that sith J offended onely through an overcharitable inclination hee conceaued good hope when J should see the truth cleered some scruples which were in my mind removed by his diligence J would yeeld But what experience soever hee had of former conferences how small soever his hope was that fruit would come of it if he should haue conferred will any man iudge this a cause sufficient why to open his mouth in publique without any one worde privately spoken He might haue considered that men doe sometimes reape where they sowe but with small hope hee might haue considered that although vnto me whereof he was not certaine neither but if to mee his labour should be as water spilt or powred into a torne dish yet to him it could not bee fruitlesse to doe that which order in Christian Churches that which charitie amongst Christian men that which at many mens hands even common humanitie it selfe at his many other things besides did require What fruit could there come of his open contradicting in so great hast with so small advise but such as must needs bee vnpleasant and mingled with much acerbitie Surely hee which will take vpon him to defend that in this there was no oversight must beware least by such defences he leaue an opinion dwelling in the minds of men that he is more stiffe to maintaine what he hath done then carefull to doe nothing but that which may iustly bee maintained 26 Thus haue J as neere as I could seriously answered things of waight with smaller I haue dealt as J thought their qualitie did require I take no ioy in striving I haue not beene nozled or trained vp in it I would to Christ they which haue at this present enforced me herevnto had so ruled their hands in any reasonable time that I might never haue beene constrained to strike so much as in mine owne defence Wherefore to prosecute this long and tedious contention no further shall I wish that your Grace their HH vnto whose intelligence the dutifull regard which I haue of their iudgements maketh me desirous that as accusations haue been brought against me so that this my answere therevnto may likewise come did both with the one the other as Constantine with bookes containing querulous matter Whether this be coÌ„venient to be wisht or no J cannot tell But sith there can come nothing of contention but the mutuall wast of the parties contending til a common enimie daunce in the ashes of them both I doe wish hartely that the graue advise which Constantine gaue for revniting of his Clergie so manie times vpon so small occasions in so lamentable sort divided or rather the strict commandement of Christ vn to his that they should not be devided at all may at the length if it be his blessed will prevaile so far at the least in this corner of the Christian world to the burying quite forgetting of strife together with the causes which haue either bred it or brought it vp that things of small moment never disioine them whom one God one Lord one faith one spirit one baptisme bands of so great force haue linked that a respectiue eie towards things wherewith wee should not be disquieted make vs not as through infirmitie the very Patriarkes themselues sometimes were full gorged vnable to speake peaceably to their owne brother finally that no strife may ever be hard of againe but this who shal hate strife most who shall pursue peace and vnitie with swiftest paces FINIS * A meer formalitie it had bin to mee in that place wheâ—eas no man had ever vsed it before me so it could neither further me if I did vse it nor hinder me if I did not His words be these The next Saboth day after this M. Hooker kept the way he had entred into before bestowed his whole hower and more only vpon the questions hee had moved and maintained Wherein hee so set out the agreement of the Church of Rome with vs and their disagreement from vs as if wee had consented in the greatest and waightiest points and differed only in certaine smaller matters Which agreement noted by him in two chiefe points is not such as he would haue made men beleeue The one in that hee said they acknowledge all men sinners even the blessed Uirgin though some of them freed her from sinne for the Councell of Trent holdeth that shee was free from sinne Another in that he said They teach Christs righteousnesse to be the only meritorious cause of taking away sinne and differ from vs only in the applying of it For Thom. Aquinas their chiefe schooleman Archbish. Catharmus teach that Christ tooke away only originall sin and that the rest are to bee taken away by our selues yea the Councell of Trent teacheth that the righteousnesse whereby wee are righteous in Gods sight is inherent righteousnesse which must needs bee of our owne workes and cannot be vnderstood of the righteousnesse inherent only in Christs person accounted vnto vs. * This doth much trouble Thomas holding her conception stained with the naturall blemish inhereÌ„t in mortall seed And therefore hee putteth it off with two Answers the one that the Church of Rome doth not allow but tolerate the Feast which answer now will not serue the other that being sure shee was sanctified before birth but vnsure how long a while after her conception therefore vnder the name of her conception day they honour the time of her sanctification So that besides this they haue now no soder to make the certaine allowance of their feast and their vncertaine sentence concerning her sinne to cleaue together Thomas 3. part quaest 27 art 2. ad 2 m 3m. Annotat. in Rom 5. See 9. Lib. 5. defens fidei Oâ—â—â—od lib. 3 In 4 Sent. d. 1 â—u 4. art 6. Bellarm. Iudic. dâ—lio Concor Mendaâ— 18. Nemo Catholicorum vnquam sic docuit sed credimus profitemur Christum in crâ—ce pro omniâ—â—â— omnino peccatu 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 originalibus quà m actualibus 〈…〉 * In the Advertisements published in the 7 yeare of her Maiesties raigne If any preacher or person vicar or curat so licensed shall fortune to preach any matter tending to disseÌ„tion or to derogation of the religion and doctrine receaued that the hearers denouÌ„ce the same to the Ordinary or the next Bishop of the same place but not openly to contrary or to impugne the same speech so disorderly vttered whereby may grow offense and disquiet of the people but shall be convinced and reproved by the Ordinarie after such agreeable order as shal be scene to him according to the gravitie of the offence And that it be presented within one moneth after the words spoken
a purse howe are they so much wider vnto him then to me that he which in the limits of his ordinarie calling should reproue that in me which hee vnderstood not and I labouring that both he others might vnderstand could not do this without forsaking my calling The matter whereof I spake was such as being at the first by me but lightly touched hee had in that place openly contradicted and solemnly taken vpon him to disproue If therefore it were a schoole question vnfit to be discoursed of there that which was in me but a proposition only at the first wherfore made he a probleme of it Why tooke he first vpon him to maintaine the negatiue of that which I had affirmatiue lie spoken only to shew mine owne opinion little thinking that ever it would haue a question Of what nature soever the question were of I could do no lesse thē there explaine my selfe to them vnto whom I was accused of vnsound doctrine wherein if to shew what had beene through ambiguitie mistaken in my wordes or misapplyed by him in this cause against me I vsed the distinctions and helps of schooles I trust that herein I haue committed no vnlawfull thing These schoole implements are acknowledged by * graue and wise mē not vnprofitable to haue beene invented The most approved for learning and iudgment do vse them with out blame the vse of them hath beene wel liked in some that haue taught even in this verie place before me the qualitie of my hearers is such that I could not but think them of capacitie very sufficient for the most part to conceiue harder then I vsed any the cause I had in hand did in my iudgement necessarilie require them which were then vsed when my words spoken generally without distinctions had beene perverted what other waie was there for me but by distinctions to lay them opē in their right meaning that it might appeare to all men whether they were consonant to truth or no. And although Mr Travers be so invred with the citty that he thinketh it vnmeete to vse my speech which savoureth of the schoole yet his opinion is no canon though vnto him his minde being troubled my speech did seeme like fetters manicles yet there might be some more calmely affected which thought otherwise his private iudgement will hardly warrant his bold words that the things which I spake were neither of edification nor truth They might edifie some other for anie thing he knoweth and bee true for anie thing he proveth to the contrarie For it is no proofe to crie Absurdities the like wherevnto haue not beene harde in publique places within this Land since Queene Maries daies If this came in earnest from him I am sorie to see him so much offended without cause More sorie that his fit should be so extreame to make him speake he knoweth not what That I neither affected the truth of God nor the peace of the Church Mihi pro minimo est It doth not much moue me when Mr Travers doth say that which I trust a greater then Mr Travers will gainesaie 17 Now let all this which hitherto he hath said be graunted him let it be as he would haue it let my doctrine and manner of teaching bee as much disallowed by all mens iudgement as by his what is all this to his purpose He alleadgeth this to bee the cause why hee bringeth it in The high Commissioners charge him with an indiscretion and want of dutie in that hee inveighed against certaine points of doctrine taught by me as erroneous not conferring first with me nor complaining of it to them Which faults a sea of such matter as hee hath hitherto waded in will never be able to scowre from him For the avoiding of Schisme and disturbance in the Church which must needes grow if all men might thinke what they list and speake openlie what they thinke therefore by a decree agreed vpon by the Bishops confirmed by her Maiesties authoritie it was ordered that erronious doctrine if it were taught publiquely should not be publiquely refuted but that notice thereof shoulde bee giuen vnto such as are by her Highnesse appointed to heare to determine such causes For breach of which order when he is charged with lacke of duety all the faults that can bee heaped vpon mee will make but a weak defence for him as surely his defence is not much stronger when he alleageth for himselfe that He was in some hope his speech in proving the truth and clearing those scruples which I had in my selfe might cause me either to imbrace sound doctrine or suffer it to be imbraced of others which if I did he should not need to cōplain that It was meet he should discover first what I had sowne and make it manifest to be tares and then desire their sithe to cut it downe that conscience did binde him to do otherwise thē the foresaid order requireth that hee was vnwilling to deale in that publique manner and wished a more convenient way were taken for it that hee had resolved to haue protested the next Saboth day that he would some other way satisfie such as should require it and not deale more in that place Be it imagined let me not be taken as if I did compare th' offenders when I do not but their answers only be it imagined that a libeller did make this apologie for himselfe I am not ignorant that if I haue iust matter against any man the Law is open there are iudges to heare it and courts where it ought to be complained of I haue taken an other course against such or such a man yet without breach of duty for as much as I am able to yeeld a reason of my doing I conceiue some hope that a little discredit amongst men would make him ashamed of himselfe and that his shame would worke his amendment which if it did other accusation there should not need could his answere be thought sufficient could it in the iudgment of discreet men free him from all blame No more can the hope which Mr Tarvers conceived to reclaime me by publique speech iustifie his fault against the established order of the Church 18 His thinking it meete he should first openly discover to the people the tares that had been sowne amongst thē and then require the hand of authority to mowe them down doth only make it a question whether his opinion that this was meet may be a priviledge or protection against that lawfull constitution which had before determined of it as of a thing vnmeet Which question I leaue for them to discusse whom it most concerneth If the order be such that it cannot be kept without hazarding a thing so precious as a good conscience the perill wherof could be no greater to him then it needs must bee to all others whom it toucheth in like causes when this is evident it wil be a most effectuall motiue not only for England