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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	church_n	faith_n	good_a	1,446	5	3.4167	3	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A18448	The oration of the most noble and reverende father in God the Lorde Cardinalles Grace of Lorrain made and pronounced in thassemblie [sic] at Poyssi, the kyng beyng present, the sixtene daye of Septembre, in the yeare of our Lorde 1561 / translated out of Frenche into Englishe by T.S.	Guise, Charles de, Cardinal de Lorraine, 1525-1574.	1561 (1561)	STC 5010.5; ESTC S283	23,800	31

❧ THE ORATION OF THE MOST NOBLE AND REVERENDE FAther in GOD the lorde Cardinalles grace of Lorrain made and pronounced in thassemblie at Poyssi the Kyng beyng present the sixtene days of Septembre In the yeare of our Lorde 1561. Translated out of Frenche into Englishe by T. S. THis present daye being the eight of October 156● The kinge beynge at Saint Germyne in Laye did permit geue licence to William Morel his printer dwelling at Paris to printe or cause to be printed the oracion made by the cardinals grace of Lotharinge in the assemble at Poissy the 16. daye of September last past the same to put abroade vtter forbidding all other printers the same to imprinte or cause to bee imprinted or selle without licence or sufferaunce of the said Morel and his maiesty hath geuen me in commandement hereof to make asmuch expedicion as I conueniently coulde De Laubespine SYRE we acknowleadge you for oure soueraigne and naturall lorde and confesse oure selues to be your most humble and obediente subiectes and seruauntes And the fidelitie whiche we haue sworne and solemnely promised vnto your grace we will neuer gaine go it After our example then and accordyng to the doctrine of God whiche we announce all ye that be presente 〈…〉 and all those lykewise that bee vnder your maiesties rule gouernemente in this mosse christen realme be ye for the loue of God subiectes to all policie and humaine order whether it be to the kynge as to the head and soueraigne or vnto theim whiche vnder hym supplie the chiefe places nerte his persone or els vnto other by hym established thorough the prouinces euery one accordynge to his charge as vnto them whiche be sent by hym to the punyshyng of euyll doers and to the praise of them that do well For such is the will of God that in doyng well you shall stoppe the mouthe to the ignorant and foolyshe All this purpose the apostle saint Peter concludeth in these fower words 1. Pet. 1. Feare God and honor the Kyng as though he wold saye Honor the kyng for that ye ought to scare God It is he Pro. ● by whom kynges do rule And they that make lawes ordeyn iust thinges wherby princis doo commaunde and the mightie doo iudge the earth wherof he that will seke thoriginall must nedes confesse that all power is geuen of our Lorde God and the vertue strength cometh from aboue 〈…〉 Ro● It is he saith Dauid that geueth saufetie to kinges and instructeth my handes to fight maketh my singers to serue in the warre To be short fithens that all superior and hygh power is of God principally then is the power of kynges ordeined by hym wher vnto if any maketh resistence dothe withstande his ordinance and purchaseth to himselfe damnation Let vs be therfore to your maiestie faithfull and obediente subiectes not onely for not prouoking your anger but also for conscience sake Notwithstanding remembre syre that you are not onely a minister of God and of oure Lorde Iesus Christe The duetie of a Kyng toward the churche of his authoritee there Esa 49 60 but also of his Chirch the whiche you norishe and conserue you are therof a sonne and not a lorde a member and not a head as by his prophete long tyme sithens he warned the chirche whyche shoulds be assembled of the Gentils For Esaie sayth The kynges shal be thy nourses and shal submitte them selues to do thee honor and seruice The kynges shall be broughte vnto thee and shall obeye thee And the people and realme that shall not serue thee shall peryshe and there shall be made suche waste and destruction that no habitation there shall bee founde Which saying our first and moste holy ancient Byshoppes aduentured to proteste before their myghtiest and moste redoubted Emperors 23 q. 8. cap conuen● o● and those Emperoures accepted the same in good parte Sainct Ambrose speakyng of the Emperour Valentinian the yonger and of Iustinian his mother saith thus What name or title more honorable maye an Emperor attribute to hym selfe then to bee called the Sonne of the Churche whiche was spoken withoute offence and the same ryghte thankefully accepted For the Emperor is within the Churche and not aboue The same Saint Ambrose in a request presented to the same Emperor refused his iudgement in his disputation with Aurentius an Arrian byshoppe Epi 32 Forasmuche sayth he as in causes of Faithe and of the Churche Byshoppes do iudge of the laitie and not the laitie in their consistories assemblies do iudge of Byshops And this saith he none will cal in doubte that wil kepe the wel ordered course of the holy scriptures or that wil folow the good auncient customes and obseruations Way enge well then these thynges what is he that in cause of faithe will denye that Byshoppes haue not accustomed to iudge of Christian Emperors and not the Emperours of Byshoppes In this Consistorie IESVS CHRIST hathe not accustomed to occupye the place of a partie but rather of a Iudge If ye treate with hym I haue learned that it oughte to bee in the Churche whyche my forfathers haue doone If it bee to haue conference in matters of Faithe that conference oughte to bee made with the priestes VVhat in g●ments in maters of faithe the olde christian Emperors obserued and in vvhat estimation they had their Bishops priestes Ruf. li. 10 ca. 2. Tripar li. 2 ca ● Socr. li. 2. ca. 8 Theo. li. 1 cap 11. Sozom. li. 1. c. 17. Nicep li. 8. ca. 16. ● Ambrose in the place befor alledged The lyke order was obserued vnder that greate Emperoure Constantine who withoute any restraynte dydde permyt to the Ecclesiasticall persones free iudgemente in matters of faithe and would neuer iudge of priuate complayntes made of any Byshoppes in the councell of Nice It is GOD sayth he that hath constituted you priestes that hathe geuen you power to iudge of vs and not power to me to iudge of you He is onely youre iudge and you oughte not to bee iudged by men Whyche holye opinion Valentinian the elder full welle did folowe sayeng It becometh me not to iudge amonge the Byshoppes where any question of the Faithe or of Ecclesiasticall ordre aryseth He ought not to iudge that doothe diffre in charge but he whyche is of lyke vocation that is to saye priestes oughte to iudge of prestes In the selfe same tyme and to lyke effecte Gregorye Nazianzene dydde preache before the Emperour Valens and tolde hym The ordynaunce of IESVS CHRIST hathe made you subiecte vnto my power and to my iurisdiction You are not he onely that ruleth for we also rule in a greatter and more perfecte Empire yf we dooe not submytte the spirite to the fleshe and heauenly thynges to earthly But geue me leaue moste noble Emperour more frankelye to vtter my mynde I knowe that thou arte a sheepe of my flocke and in that

in baptisme and to eate his bodye and drynke his bloode at his holy table To be shorte if you or any other do so fasten and lodge Christe onely in heauen that in no wise you wyll haue hym founde vppon earthe and so no more In caena quam in scena Imo quam in coeno Whiche wordes be not requisite to be translated for feare of such as be weake we contrarywise beyng taughte that the supper is celebrated here benethe in this world and not aboue in heauen and beyng not so quicke witted subtill or wise that we can comprehend a thyng verily and in substance absent from the sayd supper to be not withstandyng veryly and substancially exhibited and receaued and for a conclusion to bee there and not to bee there for feare to dispoyle and euacuate the holy signes of thynges onely figured and represented and not presented or to be presented to separate absent and seuer theym as farre as heauen is frome the earth Whereunto we answere you with like wordes That we be as farre of from your opiniō in this case as the highest parte of the heauens is from the lowest parte of the earthe Or lette them all see and iudge whiche measureth the pointes of our religion as they ought to be measured by Theologie and not by philosophie whether of vs dothe attribute more to Iesus Christ our lorde god whether ye or any other among you whiche doo mainteine that there is a place so prescript in heuē whervnto he is ascended wherin onely he is according to the body els where he cannot be or we who although we beleue him to be in heauen do not for all that ceasse to beleue that he is in all places where his holye mysteries are celebrated and not otherwise making no further inquirie of the maner than as his omnipotent worde dothe teache Graunt most puissant mightie god August in psalm ●in de cōsec di ● can prima heresis Ioan. 6. that as the first heresie among the disciples of his sonne our sauior toke the like occasion of his worde Durus est hic sermo which was so difficulte that diuers of them murmuryng wente backe and folowed him no more so also that this new and last controuersie This Sacramentarie warre I say which so often dothe renew take not away from vs thoccasion of commune accord consent of reducyng and appeasing thinges to a better quietnesse of our bodies soules and to a more tranquillitie to the realme and aboue all things that it maye not trouble or let our reformation presently in hand which we haue begon in such sort as it is most necessarie bothe for vs and our flockes But principally that it will please hym to preserue vs that in these latter days and moste perillous tymes that prediction doo not chaunce whyche a manne of great name and estimation among our aduersaries Melāch ad Oecolam an 1525. dissuading a companion of his in the beginnyng to remoue from him this filthie tragedie foretelling him almoste prophecieng that it threatned an horrible mutation not onely to kyngdoms empires but also to the hole church To Beza and his cōpanie the protestantes Me think I haue bē more troublesom vnto you by reson of my lōg processe thā I wold haue ben yet not so much persuaded you as I was desirous to haue done which if you wil wtout auctoritie or reson cōtinue beleue no tyme of yeres passed euen frō the death of our sauior from the primitiue church vntil your owne separation we wil cōmit you to your own choise And if without cause for mainteining a quarel so iust you haue vs in such hatrede and that so by open confession you will deuide your selues from vs that we seme not worthie in your sighte to liue or remaine with you nor in the selfe same temples I tremble at the speakyng of it to pray and make sacrifice to God and to administer the Sacramētes yet at the least refuse not the Greke churche for iudge in this controuersie if you so much abhorre the Latin that is to say the Romaine churche takyng recourse to a particular churche seyng the vniuersall churche doothe myslike you What doo I speake of the Greke church Nay beleue the confession of Ausbrough and the churches that hath receiued the same and you shal fynde your selues vanquished of them all But if you can not fynde place with them whiche be deuided from vs and that you agreyng with them almoste in all other poyntes and in this poynte of this moste precious sacrament you can not agree what other hope of agreement with vs but onely by wordes can we conceue whiche differ from you bothe in this in many other pointes And if you be so sore addicted to your solitarie opinion become in effecte solitarie If you wille come no nerer to our faith to our actions get you also further of from vs and trouble not the flockes wherof you haue no charge nor yet any laufull administration For the same to vs appertaineth according to the authoritie which we receaue from God And geuyng leysure to youre newe opinions to waxe old so long if God permitte it as our doctrine traditions haue done For we lay vnto you the prescriptiō of the sens of the scripturs with more reason than was done in Tertulians tyme whiche shal be a cause to restore peace to so many troubled consciences and to leaue your countrey in quietnesse and reste To the kyng Wherein Sire we all doo moste humbly beseche you in the name of God by whom you are called to this estate to holde your hande and that it will please you to continue in this holy profession of Faith whiche we haue here presently declared vnto you accordyng to that whiche the Vniuersall churche hath ealwayes taughte whiche is agreable to the woorde ordinance of God And in this so doyng you shal resuscitate and in you plentuously reuiue the graces whiche god hath placed in holy religion not only in your grādmother Quene Claude Quene Claude Quene Katharine Kynge Fraunces the first Kynge Henry the seconde Fraunces the second and in youre mother Quene Katherine our soueraigne lady not onely I say in that mightie and wise kyng Francis the firste your grandfather in that good and so welbeloued Henrye your father in that well condicioned kyng Francis your brother but also in as many kynges all your predecessors and all our soueraigne lordes frō that firste kyng Clouis euen vnto you of whom neuer was there one that strayed from this holy Catholike faith no not one euer founde to forsake the religion of his ancesters and they all haue by succession left and transmitted vnto you this name of moste christian kyng and fyrste sonne of the churche God almightie graunt that your successors maye receaue the same frome you in like integritie and perfection and that our God vpon you our soueraigne lorde nor vpon your subiectes do exercise his mighty hand and the punishementes of his iuste iudgementes And you madam seyng the whole realme hathe geuen vnto you all maner of administration and gouernement during the minoritie of oure kyng and soueraigne LORDE keepe vs well this iewell soo precious and rendre hym agayne vnto vs when he shall haue accomplished his full yeares of the selfe same religion and fayth wherin he is deliuered vnto you and wherein hytherto you haue so carefullye instructed hym And herein you shall doo an acte so greate as that holy quene Clotide dyd whiche is set before your eies to folowe who by her holye instructions was the meane and cause of bryngyng of Clowis her husband to the christian religion And you madame herein shall kepe the kyng your sonne well instructed To the quenes mother accordynge to the intente and will of that good kyng Henry your husbande Wherfore madame in the name of your saide beloued husbande we moste humbly beseche you that lyke as we haue nothynge that next after God more deere vnto your grace than your commune and euer pardurable and indissoluble loue euen so therfore aswell in this poinct as in all others ye wyll folowe and execute his sacred wille and not to suffer his memory to be condemned nor yet the remēbrance of that mightye kyng Frauncis your father in lawe which called you to the great and happy mariage of his son to the intente their good expectatiō in you for the bringing vp of their childrē should not be altogether frustrate and deceaued To the king of Nauarre and princes of the bloud We doubt not but in this doing you shall be well asisted by the king of Nauarre by our lordes the princes of the bloud who will not degenerat from their most christian progenitours The self same counsail wil those noble mē geue vnto you which ar called to the honorable state of the kings coūcel The same also the Peres and officers of France all which haue bene nourished and aduanced by these good kinges and therfore will call to remembraunce their will and pleasure And ye most noble and christian assembly present in this thing shal shew your selues not onely true christians and faithful seruauntes to god but also most louing and harty subiectes to your king wherby we al trust by gods help that this whole realme shall bee sounde in one vnitie And to make an ende Sire we all with one heart with one voice and in the name of al the french church do vow vnto god solemnly promise vnto your grace neuer to departe from this holy true and catholike doctrine Which we will take payne to publish in our churches and for the maintenaunce therof we wil not spare to spende our hole bloud and liues as in like manner we wil shew our selues alwais both redy and mindful touching any affaires that shal concerne your maiesties seruice and the maintenance of your croune FINIS

thou dooest reigne and commaunde thou haste it by the benefyte and grace of IESVS CHRIST But wherevnto serueth this conference of kyngly or priestlye dignities namely vnto vs whyche neuer ne yet oure predecessoures haue at any tyme experimented of oure moste Christian kynges any vnseemely enterprise and that bee and doo succede in the states of them who neuer denyed the due obedience to their kynges no not once called the same in question The effect of his first proposition Lette then Sire the firste discourse of this proposition bee to this ende principally that all menne maye bee wytnesse in what reuerente sort we humble oure selues And howe muche wee woulde that bothe we and all they that be vnder our charge should shewe their faithfull obedience Let it be also a manifest declaration of the authoritie that God hath left to vs in the guidyng of soules in the doctrine of our faith and that vnder your protection to the ende that leauyng all other thynges aparte I maye make you vnderstande my charge and by whom I am therevnto authorised SYRE in this companie by your commaundement assembled we be a great numbre of Archbishops Byshops vpon whom thimposition of handes haue ben layd by their Metropolitanes and other byshops of the same prouince and through the grace of Iesus Christe the holy ghost hath ben geuen nominated by the kinges your predecessoures who do succede in the right of their people they referryng themselues to them and into theyr handes themselues beyng discharged of all that is necessarie to their choise or election We be receyued vpon the view and consent of our clergies and of our peoples that be vnder vs after our institution made by our holy fathers the Popes and the holye see Apostolique whom we acknowledge for our Superior and all these signes and markes be accompanyed with one succession from thapostles vnto vs very well continued There be also a good numbre of priestes sente by the Byshops that bee absent and by the chapters and Clergie and also Doctors of Parys whom I name for honors sake and of other famous vniuersities and to theym all I am inferior in vnderstandyng knowledge and eloquence and yet neuerthelesse by them all ordeyned to make you vnderstand one thyng The vnity of the prelates and 〈…〉 nce wherin thankes be vnto God we be all of one harte one soule of one fayth vnder one God vnder one head our sauior and redmer Iesus Christ vnder one onely Catholike churche his spouse hym we serue in spirite vnto hym with one intention mynde and prayer we bowe the knees of our heartes we worship and adore hym and by hym we aske the graces and gyftes of the holy ghost and haue no spotte of Idolatrie howesoeuer some men go about to lay vnto our chargs Vnderstande therfore Syre theffect of my message It is nowe eyght dayes passed that by your expresse ordinaunce a certayne number of persons were broughte into this place 〈…〉 and 〈…〉 who of long tyme haue seperated themselues from vs to our great sorow and griefe makyng a contrary profession of faithe and woulde not be obedient to our orders and obseruations and yet in wordes shew themselues as though they were desyrous to lerne and to be instructed reentryng into this their countrey and into the house and company of their fathers whom when they will acknowledge for fathers they shall be receyued and embraced for children Against theym we purpose not to obiecte any reproche but beare with their infirmitie not reiecte theim but call them agayne not separate them but vnite theim to th ende that we maye all with one mouthe geue honor to God the Father of our Lord Iesus Christ To them therfore in all charitie and spirite of mekenesse we answer that we are verye glad of their profession made of tharticles of the Crede commune to all Christian men and doo desire with all our hartes that like as they dooe agree in woordes so also they woulde agreee with vs in sence and vnderstandyng as it hath appeared vnto vs they haue not doone by their definition of the catholike churche callyng the same to be the congregation of the chosen After that they touched summarily diuers pointes cleane contrary to that whiche the Catholike church doth teache and beleue and in so greate numbre that beyng well compared vnto our profession wherof not to speake without lawe but to proue if accordyng to holy doctrine euery poynte nedeth a whole day and so the debatyng of this matter woulde require whole monethes This hath ben the cause why at this tyme I haue charged my selfe of two pointes onely whereof the principall is to separate them and to make them strangers thother is the only rule wherby we may measure our controuersies and so come to agreement This latter is of the Catholike churche of the authoritie of the Scripture of the holy councelles and interpretations of the fathers 1. Tim. 3 whych point I will firste entreate of and the other is of the veritie of the bodye and bloude of IESVS CHRIST in the holy sacrament of the Eucharistia The one is the piller the strengthe the staye and establishmente of the truth The other is the sacrament of our vnitie beynge by hollye communion and participation of the bodye and bloud of our lord vnited and incorporated to our sauiour made all members of one body well composed and agreing wherof IESVS CHRIST is the head It is six score yeares and more before the counsell of Constance before which counsel there were some did affirm that the chirche was of the chosen only and that whosoeuer was a synner coulde not be accompted of the church and namely that a bishop whom God had reproued and so consequently whiche was a member of the diuell had no power ouer the faithful Ther folowed them other which saide that the vniuersall churche was onely of such as were predestinate Proffes that the Churche cōsisteth in good and euil Mat. 3. Luc. 3. Mat. 22. Mat. 25. Ioan. 15. Esai 5 Math 2 Mat. 12 Luc. 2 These errours and the renuers of them were in that councell reproued and condempned as altogether wholy repugnaunt to the holy scriptures wherin it is sayd that in the floure of our lord there shall alwayes be found chaffe with the corne which shall continue to the ende at what tyme the same shal be purged and clensed by the fanne of IESVS CHRIST The flocke of our lord doth conteyne both sheepe and goates the same shall not be seperated vntill his return Al the world is bidden to the banket but vpon the view which god shal make he that is found euil apparailed is driuen thens Among the virgins were founde fiue fooles against whom the gates were shutte The vineyarde of our Lord hath not brought foorth good grapes but also bastarde grapes whiche was not only tilled by good husbād men but also by euil whome god will destroy and