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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88157	An answer to nine arguments. Written by T. B. Wherein is plainly from the scriptures shewed, the weaknesse of his arguments, whereby he undertakes to prove both the Church and Ministry of England true; as likewise describing the nature and properties of a true Church and Ministry. Written long since by that faithfull servant of God and his countrey, John Lilburne Lieftenant [sic] Collonell: and now published for further good, by a well-willer to him and the truth.	Lilburne, John, 1614?-1657.	1645 (1645)	Wing L2081; Thomason E25_7; ESTC R212845	46,842	48

stripling with his sheepheards staffe and a company of smooth stones flung out of a slinge overcame and destroyed that mighty Giant who thought none so stronge as himselfe 1 Sam. 15. and justifieth an one are you and will prove to be for you fight for the spirituall Philistims the enemies of the Lord namely for Antichrist and his Kingdome and you send forth great bragges boastes against the truth of God amongst your ignorant acquaintance but indeed they are nothing but wind and chaffe not able to stand before the breath of Gods sacred truth which his weake servants for their conquering weapons make use of as I have already and shall more fully by the strength of God make it appeare in my following lines and therefore to confute your Argument and lay it even with the ground I will bring your owne Writers weapons who were members in the Church of England who doe not plead for Separation but for Reformation therein read but the Lincolne-shire Ministers Abridgment and Mr. Cartwrights Defence against Bishop Whiteguift sometime Pope of Lambeth and Dr. Ames his Fresh Suite against Humaine Ceremonies and you shall see your worship proved to be Antichristian and none of Christs but of the Divels invention Also read the Scots Dispute printed in Holland the last Summer and you shall see the greatest part of your worship and all your humaine Ceremonies with which you serve God proved to be Idols as your holy garments and your invented gestures of bowing and cringing and your kneling at the act of receiving the Sacrament c. Also read a litle Booke of Mr. Damfords sometime Minister of Colmanstreet in London against the Service And noble Dr. Bastwickes book called The Vanity and Impiety of the old Letany and you shall see the Wickednes Sinfulnes and Vngodlines of it set forth to the utmost for there it is proved to be an Idoll which as he there faith sends more soules to Hell in a yeare then all the prophanenesse deboystnesse wickednesse and ungodlynes in the Kingdome doth besides and that nothing could have been invented either by the Divell or the Pope for a greater meanes to pull downe the Kingdome of Christ and for the maintaining and building up the Kingdome of Antichrist and therefore I put you upon it to Answer their writings and confute the Arguments of your own Authors which have fully proved that your worship is no divine but humane worship and therefore not a true but a false worship Now if you should deny that your humaine invented diabollicall Booke of Common prayer and your sacred Ceremonies as your Lords and masters the Bishops cals them are not the worship with which you in the Church of England worship and serve God the Booke of Common prayer it selfe will confute you for there in the Preface before that Booke of devised Service and wicked mans invention they ascribe to the dumbe Ceremonies a Sacramentall naature and the very Office and worke of the spirit of God the doing of which makes them all to become Idols and all those Idolaters that use them or partake with them that doe it for there they say they are apt to stirre up the dull mind of man to the remembrance of his duty to God by some notable and speaciall signification whereby he might be edefied Also in the act of vniformity they themselves doe confesse that they are but of mans Invention and device and to worship God with mans devices and Inventions is odious and detestable unto him as before I have fully proved and therefore you in England have not the true Worship of God and so by your owne confession are not a true Church of Christ But now to answer your Argument which you bring to prove your Assumption which is this You have had those that have lived and dyed in the same Worship which you still have and have beene saved in it therefore it must needes be a true Worship This you say but doe not prove it in the least but still take that for granted which I deny which is that it doth not therefore follow because some in the Church of England have been saved that have used your Worship that therfore it is true Worship for then it would follow that the Worship in the Papistry which in some respects is more grosser then yours is a true Worship for you dare not deny it which if you doe you are not able to prove it that in the Papistry there hath not beene many people that have lived and died therein that have been saved for the Scripture doth declare that God hath a people there which he calls uppon to come out thence Rev. 18.4 for he ownes his Elect even in Spirituall Babilon yet for all this it doth not follow that their Worship is or ever was a true Worship though the Riches of the Grace and unfathomable Goodnes of the Kindnes and Love of God doth reach and extend so far as to save some that live and dy in that Worship as well as in the Worship of England yet I say it is as extraordinary a worke as the manifestation of Gods love to the Thiefe upon the Crosse was but for all that I will maintaine it that none of those that yeild and submit themselves unto your or their Worship cannot by the Scripture prove himselfe to be a visible Christian or a true beleever if they should be put by Gods people to prove it Joh. 14.21.23.24 15.8.14 Col. 15.19 to the end Eph 5.8 Col. 1.21 Tit. 1.16 2.14 1 Pet. 2 9. Heb 9.14 Jam. 2.17 18. 1 Joh. 3.8 2 Joh. 9. Rev. 13.8 14.1.4.9.10 19.20 Now from that which I have said I frame these Arguments 1 That Worship which is of the Divells and Antichrists Invention Institution setting up is no true divine Worship But the Worship of the Church of England is of the Divells Antichrists Invention Institution setting up as the forenamed Authors and the 13. Chap of the Rev. doth fully prove Ergo. The Worship in the Church of England is no true Morship 2. That Worship which is a main meanes cause of pulling downe the Kingdome of Jesus Christ establishing maintaining upholding of the Kingdome of the Devell Antichrist sends more Soules to Hell then all the wickednesse Impietie ungodlinesse in the Kingdome doth besides is no true Worship of God● but ought to be detested and abhorred of all his people But such is the Worship of the Church of England as worthy Dr. Bastwicke in the third part of his Letany doth prove Ergo. It is no true Worship but ought to be detested separated from by all Gods faithfull ones And thus much for the answering of your third fourth Arguments which you say are so strong and true that you say you need spend no more time in the proofe of them but indeed you are exceedingly mistaken for you have not in the least proved either of them as I have

AN ANSWER TO NINE ARGUMENTS Written by T. B. WHEREIN IS PLAINLY FROM THE SCRIPTURES shewed the weakenesse of his Arguments whereby he undertakes to prove both the Church and Ministery of England true as likewise describing the nature and properties of a true Church and Ministery Written long since by that faithfull Servant of God and his Countrey John Lilburne Leiftenant Collonell And now published for further good by a well willer to Him and the Truth Gal. 4.17 They zealously affect you but not well they would exclude you that you might affect them 1 John 4.1 Beloved beleive not every Spirit but try the Spirits whether they be of God because many false Prophets are gon out into the world LONDON Printed in the Yeare of our Lord 1645. IOHN LILBURNE AETAT SVAE 23. An o 1641. G Glo fecit Gaze not vpon this shaddow that is vaine But rather raise thy thoughts a higher straine To GOD I meane who set this young-man free And in like straits can eke deliuer thee To the Reader Christian Reader THe providence of God bringing to my hands this ensuing Matter the Author of which thou well knowest if thou beest not a stranger in Israel is famous in Sufferings both for the cause of Christ in holding him forth to be the only King and Lawgiver of his Church against that Prelaticall faction which stood in opposition to the same as likewise in standing to defend the priviledges of the Kingdom whereof he is a member with his liberty estate and life as counting nothing dear to himselfe that he might render himselfe faithfull to Christ in giving to him that which was his due and unblameable to Caesar to give unto him that which is his resolving by the strength of Christ that although others that have seemed to suffer for Christ should deny him and plead for Baal yet to stand in his integrity my selfe knowing him to be the same that he was standing a member of such a Church which he maintaines to be the only spouse of Jesus Christ I thought good to publish to thy vow that which long since was written by him to that end when he was in the depth of his sorrowes or rather sufferings close prisoner in Irons in the Fleet is being an Answer to some Arguments which by an Opposite to the truth were then written wherein is unmasked those unsound grounds by which a false church and ministery is pleaded for as likewise describing from the Authority of the Scriptures the nature and properties both of true church and ministery And if it should be Objected by any that what is here published is not usefull to us the Prelats being now thrown down and a Reformation like to be established agreable to the Word of God To which Answer may be made that if it were so surely it would put an end to all contest of this nature For what is that Reformation the Word holds out but only the men should not Lord it over each others consciences but to serve each other in love and labour in the use of those meanes God hath appoynted to informe one an other as knowing it is the worke of the Lord Jesus alone as to bring Soules to himselfe so also to enlighten Soules in the knowledge of the truth as it pleaseth him and not men by banishments Chaines or imprisonments to doe it as the Prelates have done and the Presbyters in Scotland at this day doe But such a Reformation except God by a mighty hand interpose is like to be no other then a scourge to the States and as contrary to truth in the pure nature of it as the other although it have wore appearance of truth which will he plainly manifested to those whose eyes the Lord shall open to helpe to see and ezamine what in this ensuing Discourse is said there be two great evils which frequently are apt to beare-sway in the hearts of those that professe Religion which is spirituall sluggishnes which is manifested in living vpon other mens light takeing all for Gospell which Learned men say without tryall witnesse Mr. Enoch Gray who hath forsaken the truth to embace this present world and that great God of the World selfe love that cup of gold in the hand of the whore is so sutable to selfe that rather then that shall be for gon all the glory of Jesus Christ shall be trampled under feet by them And in my observa●ion I have perceived three sorts of men glued to those evils The first is carnall Professours that can content themselves with a forme of godlines and therefore takes all for gould that glisters The other two are Clergie men and Lawyers who are filled with selfe love that like Herod and Pilate they both joyne together against Christ and his pure wayes and what should be the reason that those two should cleave so fast together to goe hand in hand to fight against Christ truly I know not unlesse they feare that if the truth of Christ take place alone that it will bring such a luster with it as to appeare so perspicuous and cleare upon the faces of all men as thereby to roote the one out of their Calling and the other out of their Tythes and thereby spoyle all their glory and greatnes at one blow and I hope the wisedome of this present Parliament will see that such as that which now goeth by oppression into their purses may be turned to make vp the Kingdomes losses which may with much ease be done if they consult with God and their neighbour Countrey the Sates of Holland but I shall leave that to their wisedomes and thee in thee perusall of this to the blessing of the most High and if there be any thing in it that savours of harshnes to thee let it be looked at by thee as expressions of Resolution rather knowing that such a spirit hath been still manifest by him both in the cause of God and his Countrey And therefore I shall say no more but rest Thine in all services of love to his power M. N. AN ANSWEARE TO NINE ARGUMENTS of T. B. LOVING FRIEND TO satisfie your earnest desire to me I have put pen to paper to answeare the ungrounded Arguments of your Friend which you communicated unto me but to tell you my Judgment of them in few words They are of such Insufficiency and so ungroundedly compiled without all Authority of holy Scripture that I doe assure you if it had not been my promise to you to reply unto them I should not once more have spent my precious Time and Paines in a second view of them For in the laying downe of nine Arguments he hath not one Portion of Gods word to prove them all but only one and that is nothing pertinent to his purpose but runnes on most deceitfully to prove Logicke by Logicke Truly I am affraid he is too neer of kinne to the Prelate of Canterbury and Pope of Lambeth and the rest of his brother Bishops

of England Antichristian And when you or any other doe by the Authority of the unerring and pure Word of God sufficiently confute what I have writ against it I doe promise you I will be a member of the Church of England againe but if that be not done I will by the strength of the Lord of Hosts for ever separate from Church Ministery and worship in England as all and every one of them Antichristean and false yet thus much I say and doe acknowledge and the Scripture proves it that God hath a people or an elect number in spirituall Babylon yea in the Kingdome of Antichrist part of which the ch of England is and none of them shall perish but ●e eternally saved yet I say it is the duty of all Gods Elect chosen ones that as yet in the whorish ●os●… of the ch of Engl. or in any part of Antichrists regiment i● separate away from it and come out of it least God plague them for their staying there 〈…〉 and 〈◊〉 forward 51.6.9.11 2 Cor. 6.16.17 Rev. 14.9.10 18.4 Now from all that which hath been said I frame these Arguments First that every lawfull Pastor Bishop Minister or Officer in the visible Church of Christ ought to have a lawfull call and be lawfully chosen into his Office before he can be a true Officer in the Church of Christ Acts 1.24.25 26. 24.23 Gal. c 11. Heb. 5.4 But the Ministers and Officers in the Church of England have not a lawfull call neither are lawfully chosen to be Officers in the Church of Christ see the Booke of Ordination of Bishops Preists and Deacons compared with the Scripture Therefore all your Ministers are false and Antichristian Officers Rev. 9.3 2. Secondly The doing of those actions that belong to the execution of an office doth not prove a man to be a lawfull officer but a lawfull power instating him into his office Acts 8.4 11.28.24 18.24.26 But all the Ministers in the church of England have nothing to prove the lawfulnes of their standing in their Ministery but the actions of a Minister and are not able to prove that they are instated into their Ministery by vertue of a lawfull power and authority Therefore they are not true Ministers of Christ but false and Antichristian Ministers of Antichrist 3. Againe in the third place upon your own grounds I frame this Argument Those that by their Ministery doe not accomplish the same ends that the Ministery of the Apostles did are no true ministers But the ministers of the church of England doe not accomplish the same ends by their ministery that the ministery of the Apostles did 1 Cor. 12.2 Therefore your ministers are no true ministers So you see I have overthrown your second Argument and that in your own way and deny that which I have said and prove against it if you be able 3. Againe your 3. Arg. to prove your scratched and deformed mother a true visible church is this Whatsoever people doe enjoy outwardly submit themselves to the true worship of God they are a true visible ch of Christ But the people of Eng. d●e outwardly enjoy and submit themselves to the true worship of God Ergo the people of England are a true visible Church Answ 3. And for the proofe of your Arg. you say that the Separation grant and teach the proposition but the assupmtion they stifly deny as well they may do but you will stifly maintaine and prove it to their shame But first of all I will prove your Arg. false to your shame and then I will examine your proofe of it Therefore I deny your proposition assumption and conclusion And first you say the Separation teach where there is true worship there is a true Church what they teach I doe not very well know for I never heard any of their Sermons but only one neither have I read but very few either of their Books or writings but yet I say your Major is not found for true worship doth not prove a company of people to be a true visible church of Christ for they must be a true visible church before they tender and offer up any publike worship to him therefore true worship doth not prov● a true church but rather a true church proves true worship for the cause must ever goe before the effect which it produceth but a true Church produceth true worship and not true worship a true Church Now to the makeing of a true Church there must not only be true matter but also a true forme 1 Cor. 15.13 Col. 2.5 or an entrance into that heavenly state or spirituall city called the New Jerusalem which comes downe from heaven and which is in the last end described in the Word of God and so becoming a politike Kingdome or Body that makes them a true church or an vniting joyning or combining of a company of Beleivers together amongst themselves and so unto Christ their only and alone head and King promising perfect obedience to all his Lawes and to walke in all his wayes that gives them the denomination of a true visible church of Christ by virtue of which they come to have Christs power to execute all the Lawes that Jesus Christ hath left and bequeathed in his last will to his welbeloved Spouse and to administer all his administrations which out of this state cannot lawfully be administred as I have already proved at large in my Answer to W. G. an eminent Profess●… in your Church but yet an earnest pleader for Antichrists Kingdome and dominion as well as your selfe and therefore for this particular I referre you to that And as for your Minor and Assumption which is that you in the Church of England doe enjoy and outwardly submit your selves to the true worship of God It is most false and a notorious lie and untruth and as well might wicked Faux and the rest of the Gun-pouder plotters say that they submitted unto noble King James Lawes and Septer when they went about to blow up the Parliament House that so they might destroy him and all his for you doe not only oppose and justle out the true worship of God and throw downe and trample upon the Septer of Jesus Christ his Son but also you set up a false and Antichristian worship the inventer of which is the Divel and the man of Sin his eldest and most obedient Son Therefore I am ashamed to heare you who boast your selfe to be such a mighty champion as you ●ay you are having as I heare you have said that you have confuted many of the Separation to reason so shallowly and ungroundedly and against the knowne and confessed truth and therefore you are but like Goliah the Philistins great champion who exceedingly reviled as you doe the Hoast of the Lord and kept a mighty challinging of them as though none of Gods people had been able to encounter and graple with him when as poore David that yongue