wordes be simply beleeued let my Confutation of the Apologie be vewed and there I shal be founde touching these odious pointes of these princes Variance with the Popes of their time to haue vttered these woordes farre otherwise then he here reporteth Confut. fol. 339. b. Concerning the case between these three Kinges of England and the Bishoppes of Rome for the tyme being I say litle If they did wel and the Bishoppes euil they haue their rewarde the other their punishment If otherwise or how so euer ech one at Gods iudgement shal haue his deserued measure But be it graunted al were true ye say though we know the more parte to be false Henrie the secōd S. Thomas Arch bishop of Canturbury King Iohn What though king Henrie the Second were euil entreated of Pope Alexander about the murthering of S. Thomas the Archebishop of Canturburie and King Iohn likewise of that zelous and learned Pope Innocentius the thirde about the stirre he made against the Church for cause of Steuen Lankton Archebishop of Canturburie Henrie the .8 This is no iust cause to forsake the Churche King Henrie the eigth likewise of the Popes in our time about matters yet fresh bleeding Is this a good cause why ye who haue nothing to doo with Princes matters now ended and buried should forsake the Churche change your Faith change the whole order of Religion and condemne al before your time for a thousand yeres Bicause the Bishoppes of Rome haue done euil wil ye geue ouer the Faith of the Churche of Rome Bicause the Popes did wronge to Princes wil ye doo wrong to your selues Bicause the Popes were at Variance with these three Kinges wil ye be at Variance with God Bicause they excommunicated them wil ye excommunicate your selues I haue heard of a foole that being striken of one standing a looffe of would eftsones strike an other that stood next him But I neuer heard of any so foolish that seeing an other striken would therefore kill him selfe Verely your Apostasie and departing from the Catholique Churche is to weightie a matter to be defended with so light a reason Thou maist see good Reader that here I take not vpon me in Defence of those Popes to answere vnto these matters nor shortely as M. Iewel saith nor at length nor in light manner nor in sad manner which matters he calleth Tyrannical iniuries and iuste causes of griefe The more cleerely to shewe how litle good matter our new Vsurping Clergie haue to bring for the excuse and Defence of the Alteration they haue made in Religion and of their Schisme and departing from the Catholike Churche bicause in their Apologie they alleged these Practises of the Popes only I demaunde their tale for their better aduantage being graunted to be true whiche yet I saied expressely was knowen to be false for the more parte what reliefe their cause could haue thereby and how the euil doinges of the Bishoppes of Rome if it were graunted they did euil therein could be drawen to Defence of their owne worse doing To whiche demaunde M. Iewel by his silence in his pretensed Defence maketh al the worlde witnesse Defence Pag. 733. how vnhable he is to answere Howbeit in that place he vseth his common sleight by cutting awaie the chiefe parte of my tale wherein lyeth the weighte and so dischargeth him selfe of the paines of answering Any booke may so sone be answered Touching these Popes and these Kinges when M. Iewel or any of his felow Ministers shal truely and with sufficient reason proue vnto vs that Henrie the Second did wel when he gaue occasion that the blessed Martyr S. Thomas Archebishop of Canturburie was murdered that al King Iohns attemptes against the Churche for cause of Steuen Lankton Archebishop and primate of the same prouince were iuste and right and that King Henrie the eight did wel and according either to the holy Scriptures or doctrine of the auncient and learned Fathers when he tooke vpon him to be Supreme Head in earth of the Churche of England immediatly vnder Christe whiche no temporal prince euer tooke vpon him before and likewise when for maintenance of the same title he hanged headded and quartered so many holy and learned men of al degrees now blessed Sainctes and crowned Martyrs in heauen when I say either he or they or any of them shal proue this much vnto vs in such sorte as I said before then wil we say with them ô worthy Kinges ô naughty Popes yea then wil we saie too ô the crowe is white Neuerthelesse I doo not here iustifie al the deedes of the Popes But what so euer they did that is no sufficient cause why these menne should forsake their Faith and departe from the felowship of the Churche Item there Iewel But concerning the Maiestie and right of Kinges and Emperours M. Harding telleth vs they haue their first authoritie by the positiue Lavve of Nations and can haue no more povver then the people hath of vvhom they take their temporal iurisdiction Confutat Fol. 318. b. Harding If I haue herein spoken euil geue witnesse against me of euil Ye would faine finde a faulte I perceiue if ye wiste wherein You seeme not wel to vnderstand what you saie nor whereof you affirme But you allege the Scriptures Per me Reges regnant Prouer. 8. By me Kinges doo reigne And there is no power but from God very learnedly forsooth As though the auctoritie Rom. 13. that Princes haue by the positiue lawe of Nations and the power whiche they haue of the people were not of God as who vseth that meane to conueie that power vnto them Item there Iewel M. Harding euen in the selfe same booke vnder certaine general threates chargeth your Maiestie vvith disordered presumption by the example of Ozias the vvicked King vpon vvhom as he vntruly saith God sent his vengeance for the like Confut. fol. 298. a. Harding You would faine the Queenes Maiestie should conceiue hatred against me I perceiue M. Iewel and thereto you applie al your skil and cunning But Sir who deserueth more thankes at God and the Princes for the time being he that telleth them the Truthe and in time geueth warning to beware of Goddes Vengeance before it be to late or he that for his owne wordly interest holdeth his peace and leadeth them into a wrong way from the whiche if they returne not backe they are sure at length to feele either the temporal smarte of Goddes Vengeance in this life or the euerlasting smarte in the life to come Ye flatter ye flatter your Princes M. Iewel ye deceiue them ye blinde them ye worke al meanes possible that the Truthe be not brought to their vnderstanding least were it knowen and of them perceiued ye should be turned out of your welthy roumes and driuen againe to Geneua I had almost said Gehenna from whence ye came Certainely ye shutte vp the kingdome of Heauen from Princes and others so
authoritie to any heresie or errour I denie vtterly neither shal M. Iewel or any of his felowes what so euer be hable to proue the contrarie That any where I haue tolde them sadly and in good earnest that the bishop of Rome is a king if he meane the expresse name of a King I tel him here eftsones sadly and in good earnest and without Saulue la vostre that it is a starke lye Confut. fol. 280. a. The pope hath kingly power yet is he no king In the first place of my Confutation by him coted I say The pope hath a kingly power ouer his owne subiectes euen in temporal thinges and now I tel you here for example he hath it as Moyses had yet he taketh not vpon him to be a King nor chalengeth vnto him that title Neither doth he in his owne person bicause he acknowlegeth him selfe to be no King exercise the function and office of a King but committeth such charge vnto other Laye persons If ye enuie the Pope his kingly power and possessions whiche he holdeth by right beware you be not at length thought vnworthy and remoued from the landes of a Baron and the Earledom of S. Osmunde whiche you holde vnduely If that happen to come to passe where then shal we finde your good Lordship In the other place of the Confutation vpon occasion geuen by wordes of the Apologie I say that the Pope maie rule temporally Confut. fol. 305. b. and more there say I not touching this matter Item there Iewel That vnto him belongeth the right of bothe Svvordes as vvel Temporal as spiritual Confut. fol. 247. b. Harding What so euer I bring in my Confutation concerning both Swordes committed vnto the Successour of S. Peter it is S. Bernardes it is not myne Wheras the Apologie maker were it M. Iewel or who so euer it was by the multitude of the light scoffes it appeareth that he was the Penneman of it mary the stuffe I heare say was gathered by the whole Brotherhead whereas I say he steppeth forth very peartly and saith thus Confut. fo 247. a. I haue a special fansie to common a worde or two with the Popes good Holinesse and to say these thinges vnto his owne face Tel vs I praie you good holy Father c. Which of the Fathers euer said that bothe the Swordes were committed vnto you To this question the answere I make in the Popes behalfe is this Confut. fo 247. b. L. Si quis C. d. test Of the Popes teÌ„poral Svvorde De Considerat li. 4 Math. 26. Let S. Bernard writing to a Pope answer for the Pope He is a sufficient witnesse Where your selfe doo allege him much against the Pope you can not by the lawe iustly refuse him speaking for the Pope The spiritual sworde you denie not I trowe Of the temporal sworde belonging also to the Pope thus saith S. Bernarde to Eugenius He that denieth this sworde to be thine seemeth to me not to consider sufficiently the worde of our Lorde saying thus to Peter thy predecessour put vp thy sworde in the scaberd The very same then is also thine to be drawen forth perhappes at thy becke though not with thy hande Elles if the same belonged in no wise vnto thee where as the Apostles said Lucae 22. The Churche hath both svvordes by S. Bernard beholde there be two swordes here Our Lorde would not haue answered it is yenough but it is to muche So bothe be the Churches the spiritual sworde and the material But this to be exercised for the Churche and that of the Churche That by the hande of the Priest this of the souldier but verely at the becke of the Priest and commaundement of the Emperour Thus touching the Popes bothe swordes you are fully answered by S. Bernarde I trust you wil not be so vncourteous as to put him beside nor so parcial as to allow him when he seemeth to make some shewe for you and to refuse him when he is found plaine contrarie to your false assertions Vpon this place of S. Bernarde M. Iewel in the Defence sitting forsooth M. Iewels graue sentence pronounced against S. Bernarde Defence pag. 528. Ibidem as it were vpon the Benche like a Iudge hauing power to geue sentence either of life or of death saith ful grauely and Iudgelike and pronounceth this sentence S. Bernarde saith The Pope hath bothe swordes But S. Bernardes authoritie in this case is but simple But why I praie you Sir Iudge Marke the cause and profounde reason of this Iudge He liued saith he eleuen hundred yeeres after Christes Ascension in the time of King Henry the first the King of England in the middes of the Popes route and tyrannie And shal we for this cause shake of S. Bernarde Then why maie we not as wel sitte in Iudgement vpon M. Iewel and in like sorte but with more reason pronounce this sentence M. Iewel saith the bodie of Christe is not in the Euchariste the bodie and bloude of Christe are not to be adored in the Sacrament The Churche hath no externall Sacrifice no external Priesthod Praier made for the dead is vaine and superstitious There be not seuen Sacramentes but onely two and by the same grace is not conferred or geuen but onely signified The Pope is Antichriste and al that holde the olde Faith of the Churche who are Papistes perteine to the Kingdome of Antichriste c. But M. Iewels authoritie in these cases is but simple He liued almost sixteen hundred yeeres after Christe and is yet aliue in the time of Quene Elizabeth the Quene of England in the middes of the Caluinistes route and tyrannie The same sentence with a smal change of wordes maie with like reason be pronounced vppon Luther Zuinglius Peter Martyr Bucer Caluine Beza Baudie Bale Hooper Cranmare and the rest of that wicked route It were a thing worthy to be knowen why S. Bernarde should be condemned in respecte of his age and of the route whiche this man telleth vs the Popes then bare and these Apostates should be beleeued and honoured with al mennes assent yelded to their sayinges and teachinges their age being foure hundred yeeres later the tyranny crueltie vilanie and outrage whiche in sundry places by them of that side is vsed farre surmounting any what so euer seueritie of gouernement whiche the Popes vsed in that time their learning not equal with the learning of S. Bernarde their witte muche inferiour to his of eithers vertue and good life what shal I speake To compare theirs with his it were a kinde of blasphemie so holy a Father was he so dissolute Apostates are these Item there Iewel That all kinges and Emperours receiue their vvhole povver at his hande and ought to svveare obedience and Fealtie to the Pope For these be his vvordes euen in this bâ—rke so boldly dedicated vnto your Maiestie It is a great eye soare saith M. Harding to the ministers of Antichriste to see the
God M. Harding is not hable to shevve vs one Harding The gouernment of the whole Churche exercised by the Popes actually If the Popes manner had benne to bring menne in subiection by the Sworde and force of Armes The 20. Chapt. as it is not whiche thing Kinges haue vsed to doo then had ye as wel knowen the Popes Vniuersal Gouernment whiche you had rather cal Dominion by practise as you doo nowe knowe the Kinges Or were it so that ye fealte so sensibily the paine of Excommunication as ye doo the tormentes that Kinges vse against Rebelles when they once drawe their sworde of correction you would muche more feare to offende the Pope then ye doo now the force of Princes But your manner is alwaies to feare him that hath the sensible rodde in his hande ready at a worde to geue the stroke the Pope bicause he vseth long patience before he striketh and when he striketh his stroke bringeth no bodily paine but causeth a spiritual separation of mannes soule for his contumacie from the vnitie of the Church and from God whiche is not sensibly fealte therefore ye feare to offende Princes and vtterly set nought by the Popes autoritie But what if none of the Popes hitherto euer exercised their vniuersal gouernment ouer the whole Churche of God whiche in deede is not true is theâ—â— right therefore any thing the lesse Not at al. The Duke of Sauoie you know hath in right the Dominion and rule of Geneua yet they of the towne suche is the spirite that your holy Gospel breatheth into the people like errant Rebelles haue kept him out of his right many yeres And what if this be not true that you saie What if diuers Popes maie be named that haue ruled the whole Churche both the East and the Weast as farre as any Christian Emperour extended his Dominion Maie you not then reuoke your stoute assertion You haue read I suppose of the great councel of Chalcedon vnder Pope Leo and of the great Councel of Lateran vnder Innocentius tertius and the Councelles of Florence and of Lions How saie you I praie you finde ye not there that the Greeke Churche as wel as the Latine Churche agnised the Popes Supremacie I denie not but that a fewe Heretiques or Schismatiques perhappes might disobeie him at certaine time and in certaine places But what then So doo rebelles oftetimes disobeye their Princes His authoritie notwithstanding tooke place through the whole Churche emong obedient Christians Iewel Pag. 104. But God be thanked it appeareth already to al them that haue eyes to see that vve haue not departed from the seruile obedience of that See But vpon iust cause and good aâ—ise Harding The 21. Chapt. Yea God wote vpon as iuste causes as they of Germanie rebelled against Charles the fift that noble Prince theire lawful Emperour or if ye list vpon as iust causes as they of Geneua departed from the Duke of Sauoie their lawful Prince or if ye wil wade farther vpon as iust causes as the Huguenotes of Fraunce haue to remoue their lawful king from the godly and accustomed gouernment of his realme by open rebellion now the second time What you accompte seruile obedience Seruile obedience I know not but of this I am wel assured that such gouernment as ye and they of your spirite vse in some places when the worlde serueth your turne for the establishing of your Gospel to worke your policies maie wel be called a yoke made of harde yron whereas the Popes yoke if it must needes be called a yoke Yoke of iron yoke oâ— wood bicause ye speake of seruile obedience is but of softe wood that is to saie light and easie As al theeues would gladly departe from the obedience of their lawful Iudge and cal it Seruile if that might be allowed euen so al suche aduersaries of the Catholique Churche can thinke euery smal cause yea being no iust cause at al sufficient to departe from the obedience of the Pope the chiefe Pastour whose office is to condemne al their Heresies as al your Heresies at this daie are condemned in the Councel of Trent by the Popes authoritie Touching the argument you make à contrario sensu Pag. 104. out of the wordes of Calixtus Epistle in Gratian if you had foreseene the folie of it I dare saie Distinct 12. Non decet M Iewelâ— ArgumeÌ„â— you would neuer haue printed it for very shame The argument is this What so euer is done without discretion of Iustice against the order of the Churche of Rome it maie not by any meanes be allowed Ergo what soeuer is done by discretion of Iustice notwithstanding it be againâ—â— the Order of the Churche of Rome yet ought it to be wel allowed First your duetie had benne to haue laied the causes of your departure from the Churche of Rome before some lawful Iudge and haue proued the causes so alleged both true and iuste and not to make your selues iudges both of the sufficiencie of the causes and of your departure Nexte your duetie had benne to haue weighed wel this Argument whether it receiueth any deceitful sophistication The folie of M. Ievvelles argument shevved by the like either in it selfe or in his like Is this argument trowe ye good M. Iewel What so euer thing is donne without discretion of Iustice against the order of Goddes lawe it maie not by any meanes be allowed Ergo what so euer is donne by discretion of Iustice notwithstanding it be against the Order of Goddes lawe yet ought it to be wel allowed And yet is this argument in al pointes like yours Suche Diuinitie suche Logique Wel maie this Logique be allowed in your new schoole at Geneua in any learned Vniuersitie of Christendome certainely it wil not be allowed Looke what faulte ye can finde in the later Argument the same maie ye finde in your owne This later maie be a glasse vnto you to beholde your folio in the first The Glose expressely founde contrarie to M. Iew. Verely where you founde these wordes in Gratian euen there in your owne Glose vpon GratiaÌ„ you found your Argument disproued with these very wordes Hic vacat argumentum à contrario sensu Here the argument deduced of the contrarie sense is voide and holdeth not This you saw or your gatherer for you Yet you would it should out be it taken wel or otherwise Thus you delight to be striking though we can soone heale your woundes For so you thinke to persuade the simple that ye haue muche matter against vs. The places of S. Augustine and of Pius that you allege Pag. 104. make nothing against the Pope therefore I marueile why you allege them seruing you to so litle purpose Perhaps this may be your manner of reasoning S. Augustine would not haue vs to geue ouer to any Bishops be they neuer so Catholique if they happely be deceiued and be of a contrarie iudgement to Scripture Ergo
debet esse iudex in causa propria The Pope maie not be iudge in his ovvne cause Harding The Pope maie be iudge in the cause of the Churche Though Leos Authoritie be not greate in his ovvne cause The .29 Chapt. yet in the cause of the Churche being so auncient so holy so learned a Father by your owne graunt it must be very great The wordes you bring are of your owne forging Wherefore as ye haue hitherto benne a forger of Doctours Scriptures the Canon lawe and Gloses so now you are become a forger of the Ciuile lawe With what wordes the lawe is written here anonne you shal see But be it true that Vlpian said for so you should haue said The Emperour alleged for Vlpian and not the Emperour as your skil in the lawe vnskilfully telleth vs no man maie minister lawe vnto himselfe Yet neither he not the Emperour euer forbad but that a man maie truely reporte of his owne matters Now Pope Leo that holy man and great learned Clerke in the place by me alleged doth not minister lawe vnto him selfe in his owne cause but for the better gouernement of the Churche and that peace and good order maie the better be kepte in the Churche reporteth a difference or diuersitie of power to be emong Bishoppes with likenesse of Order and honour as S. Hierome in his epistle to Euagrius coÌ„fesseth them to be of one merite and of one Priestehood In declaring whereof he speaketh of the right that the Bishoppes of the See Apostolique S. Peters successours ought to haue in the gouernment of the vniuersal Church through out the whole worlde This M. Iewel was not his owne priuate cause but the cause of the whole Churche in whiche he might geue iudgement But M. Iewel guilfully seemeth to put the case as though there had ben many Catholiques that called Pope Leo to lawe for vsurping the authoritie not dewe vnto him and as thoughe he had ben defendant against them al yea as thoughe he had stepte vp into his iudgement seate and there sitting as a Iudge in his owne mater had pronunced sentence for him selfe Whiche thing he did not nor euer was there any catholique man that laid any suche kinde of vsurpation to his charge he neuer stoode as defendant nor sate as Iudge in his owne cause but discretely and truely as occasion serued signified vnto the worlde his lawful authoritie and his â—uccessours as Kinges vse to doo in their titles of honour and stiles If M. Iewel wil calle his double wiued lawier vnto him and with him peruse the lawe that beginneth Qui Iurisdictioni praeest neque sibi ius dicere debet â— Qui iu risdiccioni ff de iurisdict omn. iudic neque vxori vel liberis suis c. whiche is the true lawe that he should haue alleged and wil consider that Princes Kinges and Emperours vse to doo in their owne causes by very order of lawe and if he wil therewith searche out the right meaning of the lawe L. in priuatis ff de inoffic testamen In priuatis iudicus pater filium vel filius patrem iudicem habere potest he shal finde both that he hath fondely vainely and rashly alleged a lawe that he vnderstoode not nor made any thing to his purpose but onely to fil vp paper with wordes and also that it is one thing to saie Nemo debet sibi ius dicere as he falsely allegeth the Lawe and that it is a farre other thing to saie Qui iurisdictioni praeest neque sibi ius dicere debet neque vxori vel liberis suis neque libertis vel caeteris quos secum habet For so is the lawe vttered by Vlpianus As for your marginal note out of the Decrees you shew how barrein and poore your mater is that for defence of it you are faine to runne for helpe to notes put in the margent of the Glose a very poore shifte God wote To your marginal note I answere The Pope as there the Glosse saith if there be a mater in lawe betwen him and an other man about a temporal thing ought not him selfe to be iudge in that case and to take the thing into his owne possession before it be tried whose it is but to choose Vmpeeres to sitte vpon it Now marke what followeth good Reader 16. q. 6. Consuetudo tamen si vult esse Iudex in causa Ecclesiae potest esse yet if he list to be a iudge in a mater concerning the Churche he maie be Certainely no one thing more concerneth the wealth tranquillitie and good order of the Churche then that whiche Leo intreateth of in the epistle 84. to Anastasius the Bishop of Thessalonica whiche in my Confutation to good purpose I alleged Iewel Pag. 111. Concil Aphricanum cap. 105. Superbum seculi typhuÌ„ It is vvel knovven that the Pope hath sought for and claimed this vniuersal authoritie these many hundred yeres Pope Innocentius vvas therefore reproued of pride and vvorldely lordelinesse by the vvhole Councel of Aphrica Harding The Aphrican Councel vntruly reported by M. Iewel The 30. Chapt. The Pope hath not sought for that whiche our Lorde gaue vnto S. Peter no more then S. Peter sought for it at Christes graunt The fame he maie iustely claime for so muche as it perteineth to the feeding and gouernement of Christes flocke and to the strengthning of the faithful as being the Successour of S. Peter That you saie of Innocentius is vtterly false He was not so reproued of pride and worldely Lordelinesse as more like a proud worldely Lordeling then an humble plaine handler of Goddes Truthe you saie Neither be those wordes superbum seculi typhum which you laie forth in your Margent to be founde in any Epistle of the Aphrican Councel to Innocentius nor be they spoken or written at al against Innocentius as you beare vs in hande Neither was Innocentius then a liue when the Aphrican Councel was holden but departed this life long before I graunt there is extant an epistle of the Aphrican Councel to the learned Pope Coelestinus in whiche Epistle Innocentius that blessed man is not once touched Neither was the charitie of that whole Councel so smal as to speake so il of a holy Bishop so long before departed The manner of those Fathers was to praie for suche specially for the Bishoppes of Rome deceassed rehearsing their names in their Masses and in no wise to reporte so il of them How be it in that whole epistle Pope Innocentius is not so muche as once named nor spoken of There we finde these three wordes fumosum typhum seculi that is to saie the smoky pride of the worlde or the vaine stoutenesse of the temporaltie but in a farre other sense and to an other purpose then M. Iewel pretendeth Whether he rightly vnderstode the place or no I haue good cause to doubte It seemeth that the Bishop of Rome in the cause of Appiarius whom
whiche beare the name of Christians And to the Apostles Christe said Matt. 28. I am with you al daies vntil the worldes ende If he be with them til the ende they likewise are in the worlde til the worldes ende But they liued not so long in this worlde therefore it is meant that from age to age and from man to man Christe will haue alwayes some to sitte in the Chaieres and Seates of his Apostles by ordinarie Succession vntil the worldes ende Of this Succession Dauid in the person of Christ spake in spirite saying to the Church For thy Fathers Psal 44. Sonnes are borne vnto thee Thou shalt ordeine them the Chiefe Gouernours ouer al the earth The Church answereth I shal be mindeful o Lorde of thy name in euery Generation and Generation therefore the peoples shal geue praise and thankes to thee for euer and from age to age .. So that the cause why the Churche continueth are the Gouernours by God appointed vnto it and as the Churche continueth from age to age so do they gouerne from age to age For the Visible Flocke of shepe can not long lacke their Visible shepeheard at any time but that the Wolues wil enter in and disperse them a sunder Iewel VVhen Christ beganne to refourme their abuses and errours they said to him Luc. 20. Mark 11. Beda in Lucam li. 5. cap. 80. by vvhat povver doest thou these thinges and vvho gaue the this authoritie vvhere is thy Succession Vpon vvhiche vvordes Beda saith They vvould haue the people vnderstand for that he had no solenne Succession that al that he did vvas of the Deuil Harding See vvhat cōueiāce M. Ievv vseth to helpe his cause Scarse one line hath passed your handes into the whiche you haue nor conueied of your owne head the worde Succession Whereas neither S. Luke nor S Mathew nor S. Marke nor S. Paule nor S. Hierome nor the Pharisees nor Bede whom you allege vsed that worde at al. But to make your tale sound against Succession M. Ievv falsifieth al his testimonies you driue al to that point and thereby you falsifie euery place that you bring as euery man shal finde who doth conferre the matter with the Originals and so al your Defence standeth vpon fialsified Authorities But our cause God be praised for it is so strong Christes true Succession that we neede not to care though al that were true whiche you allege For albeit the Pharisees would not harken to Christes Succession yet in deede he Succeded lineally to al the Kinges and Patriarkes and thereby to the Priestes also of the best Order to wit of the Lawe of nature and not of the Law of Moyses whiche was an inferiour Lawe in respecte of that of Nature Christ therefore had not onely a most perfite Succession which is described in the Gospel from Adam til Ioseph the husbande of the Virgin Marie but also with that his Succession he stopped al the mouthes of his Enemies For thus he said to them VVhat thinke you of Christe that is of your Messias whom you looke for Matt. 22. VVhose Sonne is he They say to him the Sonne of Dauid Christ saith to them Psal 109. How then doth Dauid cal him Lorde in spirite saying The Lord hath said to my Lord sit at my right hand vntil I put thy enemies as a foote stoole vnder thy feete If then Dauid cal him Lorde how is he his Sonne And no man was hable to answer him a worde Neither durst any manne after that daye aske him any moe questions Here it is first to be noted that the Scribes and Pharisees knew Christ to haue a Succession from Dauid For his Sonne they said he must be Therefore M. Iewel in making the Pharisees to acknowledge no Succession of his hath corrupted the texte of the Gospel and vttered a great Vntruthe The Pharisees knew that Christe should succede in the very beste line but they would not attende nor consider how that Succession was now brought to passe in the Sonne of Marie who being of the howse of Dauid had miraculously brought forth Christe the perfite ende of the Lawe So likewise M. Iewel knoweth that the Churche of Christe must needes haue a perpetual Succession but he wil not consider how it is preserued chiefely in the Chaier of Peter Ioan. 21. to whom aboue al others the sheepe of Christ were committed Wel Christe then geuing the Iewes to vnderstand that he succeeded in the line of Dauid Christ not only the Sonne of Dauid but also the Sône of God would haue had them farther to consider that he also was the sonne of God and so shewed that he who was Dauids Sonne was also called the Lord of Dauid his Sonne by flesh his Lord by Godhed which thing did put them al to silence Euen so that weake mortal and some time miserable and sinful man whome sitting at Rome M. Iewel despiseth when he heareth him to be according to the gifte of God the Vicare of Christes loue as S. Ambrose calleth him in feeding his shepe Ambr. in cōmment in Luc. c. 24. and the Successour of the chiefe Apostle he is surely astoined at it and would be put to silence if he were not worse then a Pharisee For admitting that the Pope were not S. Peters Successour but onely one of the lowest Bishoppes of Christes Churche yet who would not woonder to see him keepe his Succession so notably fiften hundred yeres together wheras al the Patriarkes and thousandes of Bishops besides are so mangled and so brought to nought But now if wee adde hereunto that the same is euen by our enemies confession and euer was the first See how muche more ought they to woonder at the special prouidence of God in that behalfe Therefore euen as it was miraculous that the line of Dauid was so notably preserued in so many changes and captiuities of the Iewes right so may we say of the Bishoppes of Rome in suche sorte as smaller thinges doo imitate the greater and may in their manner be compared to the greater Iewel Cyrillus frameth the Pharisees vvordes in this sorte Cyrillus in Cathen in Luc. 20. Thou Being of the tribe of Iuda and therefore hauing no right by Succession vnto the Priesthood takest vpon thee the office that is committed vnto vs. Harding Here againe you adde these wordes hauing no right by Succession vnto the Priesthode of your owne head M. Ievv falsifieth Cyrillus by adding vvordes of his ovvne Howbeit euen there Cyrillus sheweth that Christe had right by Succession which you should not haue conceeled had you dealt truly For there it foloweth Sed si nouisses ô Pharisee scripturas recoleres quòd hic est Sacerdos qui secundùm ordinem Melchisedech offert Deo in se credentes per cultum qui legem transcendit O thou Pharisee Christe had right also by successiō if thou haddest knowen the Scriptures thou wouldest remember that this
Gentilium fieri solet appellationem interposuerunt Oh see the desperate boldenesse of rage and furie As if it were in the suites of Heathens and Paganes so these menne haue put vp their Appeale Nowe sir if he had ben of the minde that you imagine or had thought it lawful for Constantine to heare and determine ecclesiastical causes or a right apperteining to his Emperial estate he woulde not haue tolde vs that he thought it a faulte to intermedle in suche matters and therefore asked pardone of the holy Bishoppes Neither would so wise an Emperour seing those Bishoppes appealing in that cause haue dâ—tâ—sted their doinges and cried O rabida furoris audacia oh the desperate boldnesse of rage and furie Wherefore M. Iewel neither this facte of Constantine nor that authoritie of S. Augustine can furder your pretended conuention of Bishoppes before Ciuil Magistrates Let vs see what foloweth Iewel Pag. 638. But vvhat speake vve of other Priestes and inferiour Bishoppes The Popes them selues notvvithstanding al their vniuersal povver haue submitted them selues and made their purgations before kinges and Emperours 2. q. 7. Nos si Gerson in Serm. Paschali Pope Liberius made his humble appearance before the Emperour Constantius Pope Sixtus before Valentinian Leo the thirde before Carolus Magnus Leo 4. before Levves the Emperour Iohn 22. vvas accused of heresie and forced to recant the same vnto Philippe the French king Harding The higher euery good man is the more humbly he behaueth him selfe If then the Popes hauing an vniuersal power ouer Christes Churche did submitte them selues to Princes and Emperours they shewed muche humilitie in their hartes and confidence in their causes and proue against you M. Iewel that if this submission had not ben made voluntarily by them nor King nor Caesar coulde haue had authoritie or power to haue benne iudges ouer them as you maie see by the example of that good Emperour Constantine refusing to be iudge ouer Bishoppes and saying Sozo lib. 1 cap. 17. Deus vos constituit sacerdotes potestatem vobis dedit de nobis iudicandi ideo à vobis rectè iudicamur vos autem non potestis ab hominibus iudicari God hath appointed you Priestes and geuen you power to iudge of vs and therefore we are rightly iudged of you but ye can not be iudged of menne that is of laie menne and menne as S. Ambrose reported of Theodosius whiche I declared before that are vnequal in office M. Ievvel failing of his purpose falleth from the Popes purgatioÌ„ before Emperours to their appearance before Emperours vvhiche no man denied Liberius appearing before Constantius Tâ—â—odorit Eccles Hist lib. 2 cap. 16. Pope Sixtus after vvhat forte he made his purgatioÌ„ and for vvhat cause and vnlike in authoritie and right Of suche Bishoppes maie not be iudged The Pope Liberius you saie made his humble appearance before Constantius It is true But appearance is not purgation M. Iewel You promised to tel vs of Popes that submitted them selues and made their purgations before kinges and Emperours and beginning with that good Pope you forgette your selfe and for making of a purgation you tel vs of making appearance Whereby we gather that either you passe not what you saie or remember not what ye promise Liberius dealing with Constantius the Arian Emperour at that appearance was suche as became a Bishoppe of the Apostolike See For in that cause he would neither be ouerborne by the authoritie of the Emperour nor yelde vnto his wickednesse against Athanasius for a longe time muche lesse acknowledge him for his superiour or iudge As for Pope Sixtus it is certaine that he made his purgation before the Emperour Valentinian But he did it M. Iewel in Concilio in a Councel of Bisshoppes and not in a courte of the Prince And he did it of humilitie to auoide the suspicion and malice of his aduersaries and not to geue any President to others to doo the like nor to preiudicate the authoritie of the Apostolique See These are his wordes in the place that your selfe allege Vnderstande ye 2. q. 4. MaÌ„dastis Nostra authoritate that I am falsely accused of one Bassus and vniustly persecuted Whiche the Emperour Valentinian hearing commaunded a Synode by vertue of our authoritie to be assembled When the Synode was assembled I satisfying al with great examination albeit I might otherwise haue escaped yet auoiding suspicion I made my purgation before them al discharging thereby my selfe from suspicion and from emulation and enuie Sed non alijs qui hoc noluerint aut non sponte elegerint faciendi formam dans But not geuing a president to others to doo the like that either shal not be willing or wil not voluntarily choose this kinde of purgation Lo M. Iewel your owne authour condemneth you Pope Sixtus made his purgation not onely before Valentinian but coram omnibus before al Bishoppes and others assembled in the Synode And he did it not by compulsion of any superiour Authoritie but of humilitie to declare his innocencie and not to geue any other a president to doo the like And by this ye maie perceiue that the Emperour had of him selfe nor authoritie to cal that Councel nor power to summone the Pope to his Iudgement Seate nor any iurisdiction to force him to make his Purgation before his Maiestie For al was done by the submission of the Pope He consented to the Emperours calling of that Councel he gaue him licence to heare his purgation and to be iudge in that cause And he that geueth an other authoritie and commission is by natural reason higher and of greater power in that case then he that receiueth the authoritie and commission Wherefore Pope Sixtus making his purgation before the Emperour Valentinian can not be said to haue benne conuented before a laie Magistrate as his superiour and lawful iudge Leo 3. and Leo 4. Concerning Leo the thirde and Leo the fourth their case is like When they made their Purgation the one said euen in the place that you allege hoc faciens non legem prascribo caeteris 2. q. 4. Audite 2. q. 7. Nossi doing this I doo not prescribe a lawe to force other menne to doo the like The other gaue the Emperour licence to appointe Commissioners to heare his cause and submitted him selfe to their iudgement and therefore we saie the Emperour was not their iudge nor superiour by any princely authoritie but by these Popes permission and appointement As for Pope Iohn the 22. of whose errour you make muche a doo in so many places of your bookes I haue said sufficiently before in the Answer to your View of your Vntruthes Fol. 64. sequent Where I haue declared how falsly you belie him and wherein he erred touching the state of the Soules of the iust after this life And here I saie againe that it is most false that euer he recanted any heresie before Philippe the Frenche king In deede the
Reader how he keepeth him selfe a luffe of from the point with what stuffe he filleth certaine leaues of his Booke how he starreth from Doctour to Doctour how he confoundeth him selfe and the Reader and though he bring neuer so much out of other Writers yet commeth not at al to the point directly First Pag. 165. he laboureth to discredite the holy Ancient Fathers as menne that haue not dealte indifferently herein but haue gonne to farre either in the auancing of Virginitie or in the disgracing of lawful Matrimonie Before he entreth his Allegations whereof that whole Treatie standeth he putteth foorth twoo sayinges the one of Origen the other of S. Hierome in reproufe of them that condemned Matrimonie And yet euen there immediatly after he allegeth them both for condemners of Matrimonie Then he laith foorth the stoare of his Allegations whereby he would haue it appeare Tertulliā alleged by M. Ievvel against the Churche in that for vvhiche he is condēned of the Churche that certaine Ancient Writers had an euil opinion of Matrimonie There he allegeth two sayinges of Tertullian in exhortatione ad castitatem whiche Booke he wrote against the Churche as S. Hierome saith and therefore it is condemned of the Churche for whiche cause he should not haue alleged him then twoo sayinges out of the Authour of the imperfite worke vppon S. Matthew vnder the name of S. Chrysostome which also is a worke ful of heresies Item certaine sayinges out of S. Hierome writing against Iouinian and Heluidius Againe sayinges out of Athenagoras S. Hierome Gregorie Nazianzen and Origen by whiche he beareth the Reader in hande they haue condemned the seconde Marriages of Widowers and Widowes After this he reckeneth vp so manie Priestes Pag. 166. and Bishops as he hath read of to haue benne married menne who in deede were married before they receiued holy Orders and not otherwise There Palea Palea that is to say the Chaffe that is set out in Gratian concerning Priestes and Bishops that were many Popes Fathers a very fonde fabulous tale is admitted to the place of a great Doctor yet by him much falsified Pag. 167. and altered from that he found in Gratians booke There also beside the report of Aeneas Syluius whiche him selfe recanted and of Polydore Vergil a man of our time and in these matters of smal credite he sticketh not to praie helpe of one Fabian a late seely Chronicler of London and with his woorshipful testimonie forsooth would faine prooue his mater that is to saie with a maine Lie that Bishoppes and Priestes lyued a thousand yeres together with their Wiues no lawe being to the contrarie Nowe were al these thinges true according to the purporte of M. Iewelles doctrine as for the more parte they are very false and the Doctours by him corrupted and very vntruly reported what should they make for his purpose I meane for the point it selfe of this Controuersie which is that it is lawful to marrie after the Vowe of Chastitie or after holy Orders receiued For I trow M. Iewel wil not vse this simple kind of Logique Certaine ancient Writers condemned Matrimonie which is vtterly false in respecte of al others by M Iewel here named excepte Tertullian that condemned the seconde Marriages whom the Churche for the same reiecteth Item certaine learned and holy menne in the Primitiue Churche were made Priestes and Bisshoppes after they had benne married Ergo it is lawful to marrie after the Vowe of Chastitie and after holy Orders taken As this reason is fonde and litle worth so al the sayinges of Writers whiche he hath heaped together hitherto serue him to no purpose but to increase the bulke of his Booke After al this feeling him selfe pressed with the force of the Vowe which being aduisedly made is of necessitie to be performed as I prooued in my Confutation to keepe him selfe stil a luffe of from the point of the Question he taketh a newe waie saying that the Priestes in England were neuer Votaries Touching this matter whether the Priestes of England were Votaries or no F◠290. ◠I referre the Reader vnto the first Chapter of the fifth booke of this Treatie Howsoeuer it be by this answer M. Iewel fleeth from the point as farre as he fled before For the Question is whether Priestes in general that haue made a Vowe of Chastitie maie marrie and he answereth that Priestes of England be not Votaries Which answer serueth as aptly in this case as if a question being demaūded of him whether Heretikes are to be burned he would answer we the Superintendentes of England and our Ministers be no heretiques From this he conueigheth him selfe to certaine common places and bringeth in a Huge number of Doctours sayinges tending to this meaning in effect that Chastitie is hard to keepe that it is the gifte of God that God geueth it not to al that it is to be counselled but not commaunded that a man consider wel of what strength he is and if he see him selfe not hable to perfourme the preceptes of Virginitie that rather then he fal into the dungeon of deadly sinne he take a wife and vse the remedie ordeined against incontinencie Al which sayinges we graunt be true and are to be vnderstanded of them whiche be free and haue not bounde them selues by deliberate Vowe to conteine To be shorte it were a very tedious thing here to reherse how he ronneth from Doctour to Doctour how he craueth stuffing of the Canonistes and Schoolemen whom God wote he litle esteemeth how he writeth out their sentences and therewith filleth vp his Booke As for the ancient Doctours sayinges that folow after al this they are spoken some against the perfourmance of wicked Vowes some serue for admonition that certaine maie be suffred to marrie who hauing made onely a simple Vowe either can not or wil not conteine and that the Marriages of suche personnes ought to stand for good and not to be dissolued some importe rebuke of filthy life and exhortation to Chastitie some be written against them that either vtterly condemned the state of Matrimonie or willed Priestes and Deacons in the Primitiue Churche to be compelled to forsake the companie of their lawful Wiues whiche they had married before they receiued holy Orders Thus he writeth out other mennes sayinges without order or discretiō skippeth from one matter to an other and emptieth as it were the stoare of his Notebookes into this Defence and when he hath shuffled in al he proueth nothing directly but onely bringeth the Reader to a Confusion and commeth not at al to the discussion of the point that we staie vpon whiche in this matter of Priestes Marriages is that to marrie it is not lawful after deliberate Vowe of chastitie made nor after holy Orders receiued What colourable argumentes or testimonies he bringeth to proue the affirmatiue Infrà lib. 5 Cap. 2 in this Treatie Reader thou shalt see them cleerely confuted Likewise to shew
Religious personnes and others of the Clergie detected What if I saie al these and many other suche thinges were graunted of whiche we are persuaded that some are true the more parte is false muche is so written as it maie be defended no lesse then impugned What great inconuenience what preiudice to our Faith can ensue of al this Must the Catholike and ancient Doctrine of the Churche for these pointes be founde vntrue Must this now needes be made a good Argument Some of their liues were sinneful Ergo their Doctrine was false Truely these be the matters with the enlarging whereof his Defence hath risen to so huge a quantitie About whiche I haue not thought it needeful to bestow muche labour partly bicause in most of those pointes my Confutation of the Apologie yet standeth vnrefelled partly also bicause it liked me not to emploie good houres in so friuolous and vnfruitful a trauaile but chiefly bicause what so euer be said by M. Iewel touching these thinges either on the one side or on the other it importeth no disprouse of the Catholique doctrine in any Article whiche specially I haue taken in hande to mainteine Howbeit the thinges he bringeth in to deface the Churche must needes with wise menne in this case beare smal credite being considered vpon whose authorities and reportes they be auouched The Catholikes can not be greatly moued with suche thinges as are written in preiudice of the Churche either by them whose Bookes be of suspected faith and therefore condemned by the Church as Auentinus and Beno de vita Hildebrandi or haue ben corrupted of late yeres by the Lutheranes of Germanie as Vrspergensis In Indice librorum prohibitorum Antonius de Rosellis Polydorus Vergilius de Inuentoribus rerum Paschasius and others or who haue benne muche inclined to innouations in Religion and fauoured the Procedinges of Luther and his disciples as Erasmus Cornelius Agrippa Carion Lorichius Cassander and suche others or who be knowen to be manifest Heretiques and professed enemies of the Churche as Gaspar Hedio the Author of Paralipomena added to Vrspergensis Anselmus Rid Vergerius Sleidan Illyricus Fabritius Montanus Iacobus Andreae and many suche others al whiche M. Iewel allegeth against the Churche the Popes and the Clergie boldely as if they were Doctours of sufficient authoritie and sound credite against whom specially in these matters no exception might be taken As there is no cause why we shoulde greatly esteeme any thing spoken by these either against the manners of the Clergie or against the Ceremonies and customes of the Churche or against any parte of the Catholique Doctrine bicause in iudgement the bare worde of the Accuser or of him that otherwise is an il willer beareth smal credite against any man So touching the doctrine of Faith we feare not what so euer M. Iewel allegeth against vs out of the Schoolemenne Canonistes of al sortes Summistes and Glosers out of the Cardinalles and those other learned and graue menne appointed by Paulus Tertius to geue information of thinges in the state of the Churche to be refourmed and out of the Bisshoppes speaking their mindes freely in the late Councel of Trent For we are wel assured how so euer M. Iewel telleth their tales for them they helde and mainteined the doctrine which we professe in euery condition What so euer therefore he bringeth out of them bearing any sound of wordes against the Catholike Faith as very litle it is that to that effecte he can bring though with heapes of their sayinges he hath filled his great Volume the same is either by heate of Disputation or by waie of Obiection against the Truthe after the Scholastical manner for the better opening of the Truthe or by vehemencie of zele or perhappes by humaine ouersight vttered otherwise then by them is determined in their Conclusions whereof the taking of aduantage is vndue and ouer captious or by some sleight of M. Iewel falsified and corrupted or to saie the least by vntrue cōstruction wrested to a sense by the Authour neuer intended How so euer it be they shew them selues either very blinde of iudgement or very contentious wranglers or very vaine Ianglers that allege the wordes of any Writer against the Catholique doctrine whose whole course of life shewed him to be Catholique Which is tolde vs by S. Augustine as a moste certaine rule whereby to vnderstand mennes wordes in matter of Religion And therefore thus he crieth out vpon the blindenesse of such men among whom M. Iewel maie take him selfe annumbred that wil not vnderstād mens wordes by their dedes Aug. contra Epist Parme. li. 3. cap. 4. Incredibilis est coecitas hominum omnino nescio quemadmodum credi posset esse in hominibus tāta peruersitas nisi experimento verborum suorū factorūque patesceret vsqueadeo se clausos habere cordis oculos vt cōmemorent sancta Scripturae testimonia nec intueantur in factis Prophetarū quemadmodum intelligenda sint verba Prophetarū The blindnesse of men is inoredible and certainely I wote not how I might make one beleeue that there were such frowardnesse in men onlesse by the proufe of their wordes and deedes it appeared openly that the eyes of their harte were so faste shut vp that they allege the testimonies of the holy Scripture and doo not behold in the doinges of the Prophetes how the wordes of the Prophetes are to be vnderstanded Wherefore seing the farre greater parte of M. Iewels Defence consisteth of their sayinges heaped together of whom some were either them selues or their workes being vntruly set forth after their death of suspect faith some found to fauour heretikes some professed heretikes some contrariwise knowen by publike profession of their life to be perfite Catholikes making litle accompt what they of the one side saie as being of no credite specially in matter of Faith and not doubting but these of the other side meant wel and godly how so euer their wordes by M. Iewel be abused corrupted and misconstrued in consideratiō thereof good Reader I iudged a short Treatie might suffice in this case shorte I meane in comparison of that Huge Volume fraught with so much voide impertinent and superfluous stuffe Otherwise it is longer I am wel assured then he shal euer be hable aptly truly and directly to confute I saie not but he maie do eftsones as he hath twise already donne that is to saie gather together a huge number of sayinges out of al sortes of Writers and printing this Treatie withal sende vs forth an other great booke conteining much stuffe to litle purpose and not once touching the very precise pointes wherein he is charged with foule errours and falshed But to come directly to the pointes by me thoroughly refelled and with good proufes to iustifie the same keeping him selfe in from idle ranging abroad in matters not denied or otherwise impertinent this is that I affirme he shal neuer be hable to perfourme though he write againe as muche as
Vicare of Christe aboue Lordes and kinges of this worlde and to see Princes and Emperours promise and sweare obedience vnto him Confut. fol. 178. b Harding That all Kinges and Emperours receiue their whole power at the Popes hande I neuer said it ne wrote it nor that they ought to sweare obedience and Fealtie vnto him These wordes are not to be founde neither in the places whiche you haue coted nor in the whole Confutation els where What and how great obedience Christian Princes owe vnto the Churche and vnto Christes Vicare the chiefe Gouernour of the same this is no place at large to discusse The wordes that you allege I acknowledge to be myne If that whiche there foloweth be ioyned withal the whole circumstance of my discourse declaring what is my meaning considered nothing shal seeme said beside truthe or reason After the wordes before rehersed immediatly thus it foloweth But they Confut 178. b. It is no absurditie the shepherd to be in auctoritie ouer the vvhole flocke Distinct 96. C. duâ— sunt that are the faithful subiectes of the Church of God thinke it no absurditie that the shepherd be set not only aboue the Lambes and Ewes of the Churche but also aboue the Wethers and Rammes them selues It is a very great folie for them to finde faulte with the Superioritie of the Bishop of Rome who can neuer proue that he is not the Vicare of Christe If he were not his Vicare yet being a Bishop he is aboue any temporal Prince concerning his priestly office Lo M. Iewel by these and other my wordes in that place you might haue seene had you not bent your witte maliciously to stirre her Maiestie to hatred against vs what are the thinges and causes in whiche I reporte the Princes and highest estates of the world to stoupe vnto Christes Vicare and to promise him obedience As for Homage and Fealtie suche as Vassalles rendre vnto their temporal Princes in regard of temporal Dominion whereof by sownd of your speache you seeme to meane I spake not one word Is this the charitie of your Gospel M. Iewel by such vntrue meanes to incense the Prince against vs Item there Iewel VVhereas Pope Zacharias by the consent or the conspiracie of the Nobles of France deposed Chilpericus the true natural and liege Prince of that Realme and placed Pipinus in his roume Lo saith M. Harding ye must needes Confesse that this was a diuine power in the Pope for otherwise he could neuer haue donne it Thus muche he esteemeth the dishonours and ouerthrovves of Gods anointed Confut. Fol. 182. a. Harding Nay rather Lo saith M. Harding ye must needes confesse that M. Iewel belieth him and bothe vntruly reporteth his wordes and falsifieth that Storie For truly to speake it was not Pope Zacharie that deposed Childerike Let it be weighed what I saie touching this matter answering to the obiection which the Apologie maketh against the Popes in general These be my wordes Confut. Fol. 181. b. King Childerike of Fraunce deposed and Pipine aduaunced to the croune If the Pope Zacharias deposed Childerike for so I finde him more commonly named the king of Fraunce only vpon his owne pleasure or displeasure as ye saie and placed Pipine for him can ye tel that storie and not see what a strength of auctoritie is in that See which is hable with a worde to place and displace the mightiest king in Europe With a worde I saie for I am sure you can shewe vs of no armie that he sent to execute that his wil. Is that the power of a man trowe ye to appointe Kingdomes Can the Deuil him selfe at his pleasure set vp and depose Kinges No surely And muche lesse can any member of his doo the same Remember ye what Christe said when the Iewes obiected that he did cast out Deuilles Math. 12. in the name of the prince of Deuilles Beware ye sinne not against the holy Ghoste who confesse that the Pope hath pulled downe and set vp Kinges Which thing vndoubtedly he could not doo profitably and peaceably but by the great power of God And yet did that line of Pipine The prosperitie of the line of Pipine and Charles surmounted al other VVhat did Pope zacharias in the deposing of king Childerike and Charles the great whiche the Pope did set vp florish aboue any other stocke that ye can name sence the inclination of the Romaine Empire Whiche in that transposed state of so great a Kingdome maketh no obscure Argument of heauenly approbation and diuine prouidence Neither did the Pope Zacharias depose Childerike bicause he fansied him not as ye sclaunder but only consented to loose his subiectes from bonde of othe made to him at the general and most earnest request and sute of al the Nobilitie and communaltie of the whole realme of Fraunce VVhat manner a maÌ„ Childerike vvas finding him very vnprofitable and vnmeete for the kingdome as one who being of no witte and therefore commonly named Stupidus as muche to saie a dolt was altogethâ—â— besides like a Sardanapalus geuen wholly to belly chere and to filthy loue of women Therefore in your owne wordes ye confesse a diuine power in the Pope as by whom God directeth the willes of faithful princes on the earth The more such examples ye bring the worse ye make your cause I would hier you to ease me of the labour of prouing such a notable facte You that find so great fault with Pope Zacharias for coÌ„senting after a sort to the depositioÌ„ of Childerike a beastly man an vnprofitable and vnworthy King of Fraunce why do ye allow cherish and coÌ„mend so much Christofer Goodman and Iohn Knoxe with their felowes and helpers that were together at Geneua for writing intising and doing what in their power did lye to depose the noble and lawful Quenes of England and Scotland and with the Blastes of their traiterous Trompettes to remoue them from the right of their Crownes and roial estates Saith not Goodman that Wiat did his duetie in taking Armes against Queene Marie and that al such were Traitours as deceiued him and tooke not his parte If al be rightly constrewed the Quenes Maiestie of England now being I suppose hath no great cause GoodmaÌ„s bookes named the first and secoÌ„d blaste against the monstrous regimeÌ„t of vvomen Item an other hovv to obey or disobey VVith other the like fierbraÌ„des of knoxe aÌ„d Gilbie GoodmaÌ„ in the Treatie hovv to obeie or disobeie pag. 204. either to commende them for such seditious Blastes or to like wel of you and your companions for geuing eare winde and fauour to the blowing of the same If Goodman had ben Pope of Rome as Knoxe they saie taketh vpon him to be Pope of Scotland ô Lorde what Counterblastes would ye and your good fellow Trompeters eâ— this haue blowen vp against him Long er this tâ—e whole world should haue rong of it and the Pulpites whiche ye vse as your
Hornes and Trompettes should haue stooncke of your breath But it is wel that he hath a Good name and is no Pope Item there Iewel VVhereas also Pope Boniface the eight for that he could not haue the treasorie of Fraunce at his commaundement endeuoured vvith al his both ecclesiastical and vvorldely puissance to remoue Philip the Frenche king from his estate and vnder his Bulles or letters Patentes had conueighed the same solemnely vnto Albertus the king of Romaines M. Harding here telleth your Maiestie that al this vvas vvel done to the intent thereby to fray the King and to keepe him iâ—â—vvâ— and to reclaime his minde from Dissobedience Confut. fol. 1â—2 b. Harding Neither was this the cause of Pope Bonifacius his falling out with the Frenche king that you assigne nor applied he al his both Ecclesiastical and temporal power to depriue the King of his Crowne nor euer said I that al this was very wel done as you report With so many Vntruthes you abuse the pacience of her Highnesse Let my wordes be weighed as I vttered them my selfe and then may it be iudged whether I answere to the sclaunderous obiection of the Apologie reasonably or you out face the matter with lying falsly These be my wordes Confut. fol. 182. a. The causes of the strife betvvene Philippus Pulcher and Pope Bonifacius Concerning that ye say of king Philip surnamed Le Bel if we may beleeue Paulus AEmylius the best writer of the Frenche Chronicles the cause was such betwene Pope Bonifacius and that King that if he did not only excommunicate him but also offered gifte of his Kingdome to Albert the Emperour as Platina your Author herein writeth he may seeme therein to haue done not altogether so euil as ye pretende For as bothe AEmylius and Platina do witnesse the cause of their falling out was that whereas the Pope being first sued vnto by Cassanus Cassanus a Christian Prince and a great Conquerour in the East to ioyne with him for the recouerie of the holy land sent the Bishop of Apamea to the Frenche King for his necessarie aide in that so common a quarel of al Christendome he being offended either that the sute was not first made to him either for that the said Bishop had done his Ambassade with shewe of more auctoritie then the King thought it became him or vpon some other priuate grudge did not only vtterly refuse to sende any helpe toward the voyage but also contemptuously beside common order and cruelly committed the Popes legate to prison and there kept him vntil such time as through the Popes Interdict the King was compelled to set him at libertie Now of geuing awaie his kingdome this chiefe French Historiographer maketh no mention And if the Pope so did why may he not seeme to haue done it rather to feare him and to reclaime his mind from disobedience Verely Platina writing it declareth how before the Pope proceded to that extremitie the French King did what in him laye to withdrawe the people of Fraunce from the obedience of the Churche and See Apostolike Al these thinges with eueÌ„ iudgement weighed that Pope seemeth not so much worthy of the blame which by your maligne reporte ye charge him with specially the occasion being first geuen of the Kinges vnlawful demeanour But what so euer may be iudged hereof yea though the Pope therein be without al excuse what is that to you How serueth it you to any colour of excuse of your Schisme and cutting of your selues from the rest of Christendome Christes mystical bodie Thus there And whereas M. Iewel maketh so much adoo about that whiche in deed I said not but whiche he vntruly beareth the Reader in hand I say that is that yf the Pope gaue away the kingdome of France from the Prince he did it to thintent to fray him whereat he ieasteth in the Defence saying A prety deuise to fraie a king to pulle the Crowne Emperial from his head to this I answere I spake it not absolutely but asked why if the Pope so did the case being wel weighed he might not seeme rather to haue done it to fraie him and to reclaime his minde from disobedience as by the euent it was shewed that so he did For the Frenche King returning to obedience and being reconciled kepte stil the crowne notwithstanding that gifte And when so euer any Prince at other times reuoked his euil purpose and confourmed him selfe to right such giftes of titles were also eftsones by the Popes reuoked In deede certaine Popes vsed that practise as a meane only to withdrawe Princes from wicked attemptes and most coÌ„monly the same tooke good effecte I denie not but some times by such practise Princes were remoued from their estate and other enioyed their roumes but the same were such as perseuered incorrigible Item there Iewel Novv touching your Maiesties noble Progenitours the kinges of this realme vvhere as vve as our loialtie and allegiance bindeth vs iustly coÌ„plaine that Pope Alexander 3. by violence and tyrannie forced king HeÌ„rie the second to surrender his crovvne Emperial into the handes of his Legate and aftervvard for a certaine space to contente him selfe in priuate estate to the great indignatioÌ„ and griefe of his louing Subiectes And that likevvise Pope Innocentius the third sturred vp the Nobles and Commons of this realm against King Iohn and gaue the inheritance and possession of his dominions vnto Ludouicus the French king as for the misusing of your Maiesties most deere Father of most noble memorie king HeÌ„rie the eight for asmuch as the smarte thereof is in fresh remembrance I vvil say nothing to these and al other like tyrannical iniuries and iuste causes of griefe M. Harding shortely and in light manner thinketh it sufficient to ansvver thus vvhat though King Henrie the second vvere il entreated of Pope Alexander 3. vvhat though king Iohn vvere il entreated of that zelous and learned Pope Innocentius Tertius VVhat though King Henrie the eight vvere likevvise entreated of the Popes in our tiâ—es Confut. fol. 340. a. Harding Many and sundry false partes practized by M. Ievvel at once Here al thinges are laid forth with Rhetorical amplifications to the most aduantage withal many vntrue partes be practized The Popes are falsely belyed The wicked deedes of the Kinges are craftily conceeled My wordes are impudently falsified My whole purpose and meaning is misconstrued The ende for which I spake thereof drawen therevnto by special occasion ministred by the Apologie which was chiefely to be treated of is not so much as with one word touched My tale is cut of in the middes and may not be suffred to be tolde out to the end Now bicause there is no dealing with M. Iewel but the bookes whence euery thing is alleged being laid open and euery place that is handled turned vnto for there was neuer Iuggler that begyled mennes eyes more with legierdemaine then he begileth mennes mindes with his false sleightes if his
Bastardes An. 1273. In prouisione de Martona cap. 9. paste wholy with the Lordes Temporal whether the Lordes spiritual would or no yea and that contrary to the expresse Decrees and Canons of the Churche of Rome Al these thinges saith he the wise and learned could sone haue tolde me And faine would I know of the wise and learned in deede whether al these thinges be true or other wise Verely for my parte I haue great cause to doubte If an other man had said them I should rather haue beleeued them As for M. Iewel I haue so generally founde him false in reporting al mennes sayinges whiche I examine by their bookes that I see good cause to misturst him euery where when so euer I lacke the bookes from whence he bringeth his allegations And although al that here he reporteth touching this matter were truely reported yet thereby it is not proued that al was lawfully and wel done But hereof as I said before I refuse to entre dispute But now whereas M. Iewel committeth Religion and al matters touching Faith vnto the Lordes Temporal and Commons assembled in Parlamente and wil that al orders and Statutes by them made and enacted concerning the same stand for good and lawful though the Bishoppes dissent neuer so muche By this he maketh the Faith not a Standerd to measure our opinions and iudgementes by as it ought to be but he maketh the willes and fansies of the Lordes the Standerd whereby to measure our Faith Faith made chāgeable according to the change of times And so the Faith shal be changeable according to the change of times For whereas al menne know in how fewe thinges the Lordes dissent from the wil and pleasure of the Prince who seeth not how thus it maie come to passe that our Religion and Faith shal change at the pleasure of euery Prince for the time being and that so at length we shal haue no stable Religion nor Faith at al If M. Iewel wil saie it behoueth al menne to know Gods worde and not to suffer them selues to yelde vnto any thinge that is not allowed thereby what remedie can be prouided against al errour when Princes and Lordes shal finde suche Doctours and Preachers as M. Iewel is who shal easily persuade the people that to be the meaning of Goddes worde by which the Princes and Lordes maie acheeue their desires But hereof I shal perhappes haue occasion to speake more hereafter Now whereas he complaineth so greuously of me for that I cal their Church I meane them that made the Apologie and their fauourers a malignant Churche a new Churche erected by the Deuil a Babilonical Tower a heard of Antichriste a Temple of Lucifer a Synagoge a Schoole of Satan ful of Robberie Sacrilege Schisme and Heresie If he his felowes and their folowers wil repent them hartily and vnfeinedly of their errours and heresies and returne home againe vnto the Catholique Churche if they wil ceasse to diuide and scatter abroad with the deuil the author of diuision and gather together with Christe and repaire vnitie if they wil leaue the manifolde and absurde confusion of opinions and doctrines whiche their sundrie sectes doo professe and mainteine stubbornly if they wil leaue to prepare a waie for Antichriste by their euil doctrine leading the worlde to al libertie of the flesh if they wil cal to God for grace and dispose them selues to humilitie if they wil at length heare the Catholique Churche if they wil acknowledge their wicked doctrine against the daily Sacrifice to procede out of Satans Schoole as it is confessed by Luther him selfe if they wil not mainteine their Robberies and Spoiles of Churches as iuste deedes if they wil forsake their Incestuous and Sacrilegious Marriages Briefly if they wil amende wherein they haue offended I wil gladly reuoke those wordes and how so euer in respecte of time past they haue deserued so to be spoken of I wil speake of them no other wise then of the Children of the Churche then of our dere brethren then of Goddes frendes Thus I haue answered the chiefe partes of M. Iewels epistle to the Quenes Maiestie and by repeating myne owne wordes which I was forced to doo I haue shewed euidently to the Readers eye how shamelesly he belyeth me and my Treaties Whereof the Reader maie take a view and so iudge what credite he deserueth in the rest of his Defence As for the rest of his epistle consisting wholy of flatterie I thinke not worth the answering Neither hath he vsed any more truthe in his Preface to the Christian Reader and in his Epistle to me set at the ende of his Defence where he filleth his magent with great numbers of Quotations pretending thereby the absurde and vntrue pointes in the Texte reproued to be founde in the Treaties whiche so busily he quoteth Now if I should in likewise answer to euery suche parte in the said Preface and Epistle conteined by these fewe it maie appeare to what hugenesse my booke would growe and of the whole what vnprofitable matter would rise soothly none other but a cōtinual and lothsome declaration of his vntrue dealing in one sorte or other But for so much as the same is by this briefe Answer to his Epistle dedicatorie alreadie sufficiently discouered that other labour maie seeme needelesse As we finde him in this so we finde him in the rest though otherwise not very constant yet in the rate of his writing one manner a man that is to saie one that euery where maketh his onely aduantage of lyes falsifyinges and corruptions How vniustly M. Iewel obiecteth sharpe speache and vncourteous wordes vnto his Aduersarie and how iuste cause there was that suche order of speache should be vsed The .2 Chapter GEntle Reader cōsider I pray thee indifferently how the case standeth betwixt M. Iewel and me Before he entreth into his Defence of the Apologie betwen his Epistle to the Quenes Maiestie and his Preface to the Reader he hath extraordinarily inserted foure leaues In which he laboureth al that he can to perfourme two thinges to discredit me and to aduaunce his owne credit To bring this to passe First he accuseth me next he excuseth him selfe He accuseth me of vncourteous Wordes he excuseth him selfe of fowle Vntruthes setting forth a colourable Viewe of a few of the same How reasonably he doth the one and how sufficiently the other by that I shal here declare thou maist iudge First touching wordes Where so euer godly zeale and iuste griefe moued me to vse sharpe speache albeit nowhere I vse so sharpe as the indignite of the thing required of al those places he hath caused certaine my wordes to be culled out and to be laid together as it were in a table before the Reader And bicause he would not seme scorneful euen there reprouing me for the same he calleth them forsooth certaine principal flowers of M. Hardinges modest speache And least he should at any time leaue his common
Esaie Esai 5â— This is my couenaunt with them my spirite whiche is in thee and my wordes that I haue put in thy mowth shal not departe from thy mowth and from the mowth of thy seede and from the mowth of thy seedes seede from this time for euer Lo here ye heare bothe the wordes of God and the Spirite of truthe by whom the wordes may be rightly vnderstanded promised to remaine with the Church for euer Thus we are wel assured that the Churche hath neuer failed nor wanted Goddes worde goddes Spirite and Goddes truthe But ye my Maisters of the new learning do say that the Churche failed and was destitute of Goddes worde and of his spirite of Truthe for the space of nyne hundred yeres and more vntil Martin Luther came and restored the lost Gospel By vertue of whiche Gospel neuer preached before ye claime the right of the Church and so would dispossesse vs wherein of necessitie ye must graunt one of these two either that Christe the Sonne of God promised more then he perfourmed whiche were heinous blasphemie or that your Churche hath continued til this day and shal continue to the worldes ende If to eschew the reproche of so wicked a blasphemie ye graunt the continuance of your Churche ye must tel vs where it was before Luther began to preache that ye cal the Gospel Name the place where was it Or was it somewhere without a place Dic quibus in terris eris mihi magnus Apollo If it were at al where were your Bishops What were their names or were they men without names Bring forth your Originals your Registers your Rolles of Bishops that folowed one after an other by lawful succession For this were a sure way for proufe of your right Tertull. In prascript Optatus August muche commended and vsed of the best learned Fathers Your Actes and Monumentes where be they Haue ye none of greater antiquitie then those late of Foxes making If ye had a continual succession how came Luther and Zuinglius first to the Gospel how was al the light quite out before how were al the fonteines of the water of life vtterly dryed vp before his time for so ye write in your Apologie This this can not stand together M. Iewel by no meanes as al the world may see So then it is we kepe our ancient Possession ye heaue and shooue to remoue vs from it We be of the howseholde ye are strangers We are the heires of the Apostles ye are forrainers We are the lawful Children of the Churche ye are Bastardes to be shorte and plaine whereas we are Catholiques what foloweth but that ye be Heretiques The case standing thus what great offence haue I committed if where I defende the common cause of the Churche being moued with dew zeale and iuste griefe of mynde to see your vngodly dealinges I forgete sometimes the flattering Titles wherewith ye woulde your proceedinges to be magnified and vse wordes more agreable to your desertes O ye saie I vse vncourteous and vnciuile speache Why sir if ye skreake like Frogges must we saie ye sing like Nightingalles If ye crowe like proude Cockes must we saie ye mourne like simple Dooues If ye byte vs like Mastiâ—â—s must we say ye licke vs like gentle Spaniâ—h If ye consume vs and deuoure vs like rauening Wolues must we say ye profite vs like good Sheepe Must we tel the worlde that your Serpentes be Fisshes your Snakes be Lamproies your Scorpions be Creauises briefly that your deadly Poison is holesom Triacle What were this but to please men and to deceiue Goddes people But let vs go from Metaphores and come to the plaine mater If your Doctrine be false as by most sufficient waies we haue proued it to be shal we be vnciuile excepte we sooth it If your deedes be vngodly as the worlde seeth and rueth shal we be vncourteous excepte we iustifie them If ye say Nay for Yea and Yea for Nay in Goddes causes shal we be blamed as men vnciuil and vncourteous except we vpholde your Yea and your Nay We can be content to lacke the praise of suche sinneful Ciuilitie of suche wicked Courtesie If any priuely pike money out of our purses steale our goodes robbe by the high waye kil men and attempte traison to their Princes person standeth it with good manner to cal them Pikepurses Theeues Robbers Murderers Traitours and whereas you and your felowes teache and stubbornly mainteine a false doctrine concerning the real presence that here I speake of no other pointes by the Churche and by Luther him selfe the first founder of your owne Gospel condemned for Heresie must it needes be an vncourteous parte to cal you Heretiques To touche some of your rawest Gaulles for making proffer to whiche ye wince and kicke so muche euery where â—nd specially where ye laye forth al my sharpe wordes with suche diligence gathered together out of my bookes into one heape before your Preface to the Reader For so muche as it is geuen forth by Luthers owne confession that by the conference and disputation which the Deuil had with him he was persuaded to defie the Masse and become enemie to the blessed Sacrifice of the Churche and your selfe M. Iewel haue geuen your verdite in fauour of Luther and Satan Sathans doctrine Sathan their Schoole Maister In the Replie art 1. Diuision 2. allowing Satans Doctrine in that point and Luthers conformitie imbracing the same also for your owne parte as you haue openly witnessed in your Replie what offence was it to say for whiche you shewe your selfe greeued that ye ioined with Satan and concerning the spite ye beare at the Masse to cal Satan your Schoolemaister That I called this new founded Churche of the Protestantes a Babylonical tower not without iuste cause It angreth you that I cal this new Church of yours for so a Gods name we must name it Your Babylonical Tower And this is for a heinous worde scored vp among the rest in your said Rolle you tel the Quene of it also in your Epistle to her Maiestie but how iustly ye be offended therewith let it be considered by that I shal here briefly declare Dissensions among the Protestantes Who knoweth not that is any thing acquainted with the affaires of oure age into how many Sectes they haue diuided them selues that forsooke the Catholique Churche sithence Luther beganne to leade vs a newe daunce in Religion what controuersies debates and strifes about the weightiest pointes of our Faith haue benne stirred vp and moste earnestly mainteined among them Who hath not heard of the brawling and skolding betwene Luther and Zuinglius and the vpholders of either side about the Doctrine of the Euchariste Neither hath the matter benne handled with any better quiet betwene the Osiandrines and the Stancarians touching the Iustification of man the one Secte attributing it vnto Christes Diuine nature the other vnto his humaine nature onely Againe what sturre hath benne made about
the despiser and prophaner of the holy Sacramentes the breaker of vnitie the enemie of God And for my warrant in so doing I haue the examples whiche here I laid forth before of the Prophetes of the Apostles specially of S. Paule S. Iude and S. Peter of S. Iohn the Baptiste of our Sauiour Christe him selfe Yea I say furthermore what is that sharpenes of wordes whiche in this case I meane when the auctoritie of the Councels and holy Fathers is so lightly contemned when Gods holy Mysteries are so turkishly prophaned when the Churche is so falsly sclaundered when vnitie is so with most certaine danger of Christian soules broken when the whole state of the Catholique Religion is so wickedly ouerthrowen briefly when God him selfe is so horribly blasphemed In this case I say what sharpenes of wordes is there which iuste griefe of a Christian harte and godly zeale causeth not to seeme not onely excusable but also laudable yea necessary yea with praise and reward to be honoured If when the Children of Israel defyled them selues in Fornication with the wemen of Moab God in anger said to Moyses take al the chiefe of the people Num. 25. and hang them vp in Gibettes against the Sunne that my wrath may be turned from Israel where there is so muche bothe bodily and spiritual fornication yea sacrilegious Incest not only coÌ„mitted but permitted but taught but couÌ„seled and exhorted and for some parte commaunded against the honour and wil of God our Moyseses and Aarons the true Gouernours withholden from executing their dewtie shal it not become vs whose hartes God toucheth at least with wordes to shewe the griefe of our mindes and with conuenient sharpenes of speache to rebuke the heinous wickednes that is committed and so for so muche as in vs lyeth to reuoke Gods people from it If Phinees being nor high Priest nor magistrate but only as yet a priuate man Ibidem was highly praised and rewarded of God for his zeale in killing one of the Israelites for whooredom committed with an harlot of Madian to stay Gods wrath shal we seme to deserue blame for vttering onely wordes in reproufe of so farre more heinous crimes if not to stay God from his iuste wrath nor the offenders from their wickednes yet the people of God from the like example What you are very nice M Iewel that finde so great faulte with me onely for certaine sharpe wordes bestowed in reprehension of your and your companions so diuers and so greeuous enormities You are not taken vp for halting as they say pardy Halting may haue some excuse of humaine infirmitie This that is reprehended in you is not only halting it is falling downe right Neither are you so muche to be rebuked for your owne wilful falling downe but muche more for that you studie and labour al that you can to pul al others downe into the pitte that your selfe are fallen into Now in this case the pitte being so dangerous is it not wel and dewtifully done to geue warning to Gods people to beware of it Al that I writte is for the peoples sake For with you and such as you are I haue litle hope to doo any good Suche ones the Apostle aduertiseth vs Tit. 1. not to deale withal Now how shal the people be dewly warned to beware whose senses be more liuely in worldly then in spiritual thinges excepte the dulnes of their minde be stirred vp with the feare of great peril And how can the greatnes of this peril be signified vnto them but with wordes of some vehemencie As for example If I should say to one that goeth forth by night sir the way you shal passe through is vneeuen by reason of litle holes and furrowes And you take not heede you may happen to stumble or perhappes to wrentche your foote Vpon this warning wil he be so careful how to go as if I say thus If you loue your life beware how you go that way for there be great pittes and dungeons that you shal hardly escape and if you fal you are sure to breake your necke The case is like in this behalfe M. Iewel The people be alwaies going foreward and for lacke of knowledge they passe forth as it were by night Now so farre as we are persuaded the way they go in at this day in England to be perilous as that whiche through Schismes and Heresies and other manifold wickednes thereof ensewing leadeth them to euerlasting damnation should we not deceiue them if we tolde them that Dungeons were but furrowes that deepe pittes were but stumbling holes and that there were no great Danger in the way For this cause therefore M. Iewel that the people of God might be the more a fraid to heare you and beleeue you and to folow your damnable waies I thought it good and expedient in writing against you and against the heresies of our time to vse shâ—rpâ—r wordes and speache of more vehemencie then otherwise I would haue done if I had written to you priuatly or so as knowing that my bookes should haue come to no mannes handes but to yours I knew you would wince and kicke at it But spare not litle care I therefore so that by my labour profite redounde to Christian People For what cause in writing my Confutation of the Apologie I vsed suche verdure of stile as might seme not ouer flatte but tempred with conuenient sharpenesse BEfore I began to set my penne to the paper I considered wel with my selfe what it was to stirre vp such Hurnettes and to prouoke such Waspes to anger Touched I them once were it neuer so gentilly I knew they would straight way flee at my face and buzze about me and that possibly I should not saue my selfe from their stinging Yet hauing a good harte and being right willing for the Truthes sake and for the Defence of Christes Churche to sustaine that Smarte what so euer it should be I tooke aduise with my selfe how to tempre my stile so as bothe Gods cause might seeme sufficiently defended and they not iustly offended Three vvaies of vvriting against an Aduersarie Whereas then there be three wayes of writing against such Aduersaries of the Churche vsed diuersly of the Fathers vpon diuers occasions of time place person and matter of which the one is colde softe meeke lowly and demure an other hote rough sterne and vehement the third tempred with a conuenient mediocritie betwen both though at the firste in my Answer to the Chalenge I inclined more vnto the softe and gentle waye afterward in my Confutation of the Apologie and in my Reioindre I chose the meane that by the one extreme I might not seeme to worke vpon choler and to seeke reuenge rather then Defence of Gods cause by the other to be too abiecte and to shew lesse confidence in our cause to thincouragement of such cockish Aduersaries Now commeth me M. Iewel and medling litle with the matter it selfe and
the true sense leaft out thus I reporte you truly the wordes of the Councel of Chalcedon The honorable Iudges and Senatours said For asmuche as Flauianus of holy memorie and the reuerend Bishop Eusebius are found vniustly deposed it seemeth vnto vs good right that Dioscorus Bishop of Alexandria Iuuenalis Bishop of Ierusalem Thalassius B. of Caesarea in Cappadocia Eusebius B. of Ancyra Eustathius B. of Berytus and Basilius B. of Seleucia in Isauria who were the Captaines and rulers of that Councel at Ephesus where Flauianus and Eusebius were vniustly deposed should suffer the same pounishment à sancto Cancilio secuÌ„dùm regulas ab Episcopali dignitate fieri alienos asmuche to saie and that they should be put out of their bishoply dignitie by the holy Councel according vnto the Canons This is no sentence in iudgement pronounced against Dioscorus and the reste as M. Iewel taketh it Those noble laie men said what to them seemed iuste and right but by these wordes they gaue not sentence of condemnation or deposition They leaue that vnto the Councel by expresse wordes A sentence definitiue in iudgement standeth not in these or the like wordes it semeth to me or I think it good c But in these or the like I pronounce I condemne I â—bsolue c. The sentence of Dioscorus condemnation for he only was coÌ„demned al the other bishops were pardoned was solemnely pronounced in the Councel by Pope Leos Legates in the name and stede of the Pope Which thing I haue sufficiently set forth in my ConfutatioÌ„ Confutat pag. 316. where thou shalt finde Reader the sentence of condemnation expressed in English worde for worde as it was pronounced in the Councel And that very sentence is in the Councel Tomo 1. Concil Chalcedon Actione 3. pag. 8. Columna 2. Againe with what face could M. Iewel allege these wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euagrius lib. 2. ca. 4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idem lib. 2. cap. 17. to proue that the Bishoppes were condemned by the Ciuile magistrate whereas those noble menne them selues said the contrarie that they iudged it right they should be depriued of their bishoply dignitie not by them or by their sentence but à sancto Concilio of or by the holy Councel and that according vnto the auncient Canons of the Churche Which wordes he might also haue founde fully reported in Euagrius in two sundrie places that there was no cause why he should so coÌ„fideÌ„tly tel me of the one of those places as he doth in the Defence pa. 683. Dioscorus deposed not by the Ciuil Magistrate but by the Councel of Chalcedon Act. 3. pag. 862. After that Dioscorus was condemned by sentence of Pope Leos Legates and consequently by al the bishoppes assembled in the Councel there was a solemne InstrumeÌ„t of his condemnatioÌ„ made and sent vnto him Where these wordes are by which it is cleare that the Councel condemned him and not the Ciuile Magistrate by sentence of his owne mouthe as M. Iewel vntruly reporteth Cognosce te ipsum propterea quòd diuinos Canones despexisti inobediens extitisti huic sancto vniuersali Concilio c. Octobris mensis praesentis tertiâ— decimo die à sancto vniuersali Concilio esse ab episcopatu depositum ab omni Ecclesiastica fanctione submotum Bicause thou hast despised the holy Canons and hast benne disobedient vnto this holy and vniuersal Councel c. know thou that in the thirteenth daie of this present moneth of October thou art by the holy and vniuersal Councel deposed from thy Bishoprike and remoued from al Ecclesiastical function Lo M. Iewel al this was done not by the Ciuile Magistrate but by the Councel As for the Ciuile Magistrate to whom your Gospel committeth al by report of that Councel is so farre from condemning Bishoppes by sentence of his owne mouth that he may not so much as be present at the examinations in such a case Aske ye of me how I proue it Looke in that Councel and ye shal finde these very woordes Quando quaedam regularia examinantur neque Iudices Act. 3. pag. 838. colum 2. neque alios aliquos Laicos interesse oportet When certaine regulare matters that is to say touching the Canons or rules of life are in examination neither Iudges nor other laie menne must be present And as concerning the condemnation of Dioscorus when it was done or rather when it was a doing neither Martianus the Emperour nor his officers knew of it For said the Iudges and senatours vnto the Bishops in that Councel Actio 4. Pag. 872. colum 1. Dioscorus à vobis damnatus est ignorante Diuo Vertice nobis Dioscorus hath benne condemned of you without the knowledge of the Emperours Maiestie and of vs. Now if he had benne condemned by the ciuile officers I trow M. Iewel wil not say that they knew it not For if they condemned him they knew it But they knew it not The fiue other Bishops not coÌ„deÌ„ned when he was condemned ergo they did not condemne him Now touching the other fiue Bishoppes who with Dioscorus bare al the swaie in that wicked Councel of Ephesus of whom Iuuenalis was one and Thalassius an other It appeareth by the Councel of Chalcedon that they repented and reuoked their errour and so vpon sute made by the Bishoppes for them were admitted into the Councel and suffred to continue in their former roumes After the condemnation of Dioscorus and signification openly and solemnely made that al the Bishops agreed together in beleefe and after they had al subscribed to Dioscorus condemnation among other ioiful acclamations that were made according to the auncient manner this was one Iunenalis and Thalassius vvere not condeÌ„ned In the CouÌ„cel of ChalcedoÌ„ Actione 4 pag. 872. colum 2. vttered by the Bishoppes Ipsi quinque Episcopi fidei subscripserunt Sicut Leo sic sapiunt The fiue Bishoppes them selues haue subscribed to the faith As Leo the pope thinketh and holdeth so they thinke and hold Hereupon the noble Iudges and Senatours said Piissimus noster Imperator c. Our most godly Emperour vnderstanding your petitions hath permitted vnto your arbitrement to deliberate of Iuuenalis Thalassius Eusebius Basilius and Eustachius the reuerend Bishoppes and to determine what soeuer it shal please you Your reuerence therfore knowing that ye haue to make accompt vnto God of these thinges thinke with your selues what is to be done with them Then Anatholius the reuerend B. of Constantinople said Petimus eos intrare Our request is that they may entre into the Councel Then al the Bishoppes cried rogamus eos intrare c. we praie that they maie come in who beleeue like as the synode beleeueth and holde as the synode holdeth Assint qui subscripserunt epistolae Leonis ad Synodum Let them be here that haue subscribed vnto the Epistle that Leo sent vnto the Synode The Iudges and Senatours said IntreÌ„t Let theÌ„ come
lib. coÌ„t 9. sectas In the booke in tituled Recta fides de Caena Domin nor by writinges nor by worde nor by deede as the Lord hath commaunded whether he be Zuenckfeldius or Zuinglius or what soeuer he be called And in an other place he condemneth by name Zuinglius Carolostadius and Oecolampadius with al their diuers and dissonant sacramentarie heresies Nicolaus Amsdorffius a famous Superindent in Germanie saith thus plainely Thirdely we condemne the Sacramentaries Zuinglius and his felowes The publike write of the princes of Mansfeld and of the yonger princes of Saxonie doth recken vp in the rolle of condemned Heretiques the Sacramentaries by name Ioachimus Westphalus saith No false doctrine is so farre spred none with such labour and hypocrisie is defended â—oâ—e hath more beguiled the worlde then this false doctrine of the blessed Sacrament meaning Caluines owne doctrine learned first of Berengarius of whom you haue no cause you saie to be ashamed If Heretiques of your own schoole can not make you ashamed of Berengarius and his doctrine what say you to the great General Councel holden at S. Iohn Laterane in Rome vnder Innocentius the third CouÌ„cel of Laterane thereof called Concilium Lateranense That Councel was an vniuersal assemblie out of al partes of Christendom Platina in InnoceÌ„tio tertio The great Assemblie of Laterane Councel as wel out of the Greeke Church as out of the Latine The Patriarkes of Constantinople and Hierusalem were there present Archebishoppes were there threescore and ten Bishoppes foure hundred and twelue Abbates and Priores more then eight hundred There were at that Councel the Ambassadours of both Emperours both of the West Churche and of the East also of the kinges of Hierusalem of Fraunce of Spaine of England and of Cyprus In this Councel so general and vniuersal the Heresie of Berengarius was condemned Concil Lateran Cap. 1. and the doctrine of Transubstantiation by occasion of his heresie exactly and fully discussed was by general consent of al plainely and clearely confirmed If the Sentence Consent and Accorde of the whole vniuersal Church can moue you M. Iewel then haue you good cause to be ashamed of Berengarius whose heresie was in so ful ample and General a Councel condemned as none in this worlde was euer greater If al this moue you not yet let Berengarius him selfe De Consecrat Dist 2. Ego BereÌ„garius whom you esteme so muche moue you to be ashamed of his doctrine of the whiche he him selfe was so muche ashamed at length and not onely in iudgement openlâ— recanted but also 〈◊〉 the houre of his Death ful bitterlâ— and hartily repented him selfe thereof as by sides otherâ— Guilelmus Malmesburiensis recordeth saying thus Guilelmus Malmesburiensis de gastis Anglorum lib. 3. Ipse Berengarius die Epiphaniorum moriens gâ—â—iâ—â—â— producto recordatus quot miseros quondam adolescenâ— primo errâ—ris â—alâ—tâ— secta infecerit bodie inquit in die Apparitionis suae apparabit mihi Dominus meus Iesus Christus vel propter poenitentiam vt spero ad gloriam vel propter alios vt timeâ— ad poenam Nos sanè credimus post benedictionem Ecclesiasticam illa Mysteria esse verum corpus sanguinem saluatoris adducti veteris Ecclesiae authoritate maltis noâ—iter ostensis miraculis Berengâ—rius himselfe as he laie dying vpon the Epiphanie daie whiche we cal Twelfth daie and with heauy be wailing called vnto remembrance how many miserable personnes he had infected with his heresie in youth at the firste heatâ— of the Sacramentarie Errour spake these wordes He alluded to the vvord Epiphanie vvhiche signifieth appearing or reuealiÌ„g This daie my Lorde Iesus Christe being the daie of his appearance shal appeare vnto me either to glorie as I truste bicause it repenteth me of my heresie or to pounishment as I feare me for the sake of others whom I haue seduced What so euer it shal please God to doe with me Truely I beleeue that after Consecration vsed in the Churche those Mysteries are the true Bodie and Bloude of our Sauiour being persuaded both by the authoritie of the auncient Churche and by many Miracles shewed of late yeres Thus ye maie see how so euer ye be not ashamed of Berengarius that yet Berengarius is ashamed of you Iewel Pag. 48. But as for your doctrine bicause it is only of your selues therefore it falleth daily and is novv forsaken the vvorlde through Harding Our doctrine is the doctrine of the Fathers not of our selues neither is the same forsaken The Catholique doctrine The .16 Chapt. The Fathers of the first 600. yeres reiected In institut Cap. 18. de coena Domi. Iacobus Acontius StratageÌ„ Sathan lib. 6. whiche you cal oures hath ben by your owne Confession welneare a thowsand yeres olde I cal your Confession your solemne prescription of the first .600 yeres For prescribing the one ye renounce the other It can not therefore seeme to be of vs that liue now whiche by your owne Confession hath ben so auncient Howbeit it is euident the first 600. yeres stande as fully for vs as doo the later Therefore Iohn Caluine accuseth the first 600. yeres of Iudaisme and of Iewish superstition namely in the matter of the blessed Sacrifice Therefore Iacobus Acontius one of your owne side in his booke dedicated to the Quenes Maiestie plainely misliketh and reproueth such as offer to be tried by the auncient Fathers calling it perniciosissimam omninoque fugiendam consuetudinem a most pernicious custome and altogether to be auoided Therefore M. Nowel as this Acontius calleth it a * Valde amplum spatium Novvel in the preface of his first booke large scope to trie matters by the Fathers And he that hath vttered so muche blasphemie against the Crosse of Christe for his parte also protesteth plainely In the booke against the Cross that he wil not be tried by the Fathers And why al this M. Iewel Mary thâ—y know â—ight wel that by the Fathers you are condemned and that our doctrine by them is clearely established Wâ— therefore haue learned of our Auncestours al that we teache We haue inuented nothing of our selues Your beginning is knowen and is yet in mannes memorie When Papistrie as you cal it beganne you can neuer 〈◊〉 for your life The Gospelleâ— I shal neuer be haÌ„ble to shevv vvhen Papistrie beganne otherwise then with the beginning of Christes gospel Shewe once M. Iewel when in what age in what place Countrie Citie or Churche of whom vnder what Pope Emperour or Prince Papistrie beganne and then saie hardely it is our Doctrine and only of our selues Except you shewe this your lie wil seme palpable If ye haue ought to shew for the worship of your cause bring it forth be it but one sentence or one halfe sentence The Catholique doctrine vntruly reported by M. Ievvel to be forsaken al the vvorld through In like manner a sensible and a palpable lie it
great folie I wil not saie also a blasphemie A great folie it is for you and your felowes to contemne the General Councelles of late yeres for that they be newe as you say your selues and your doctrine being yet so newe and of so litle age Verely no age or time of Christes Churche to any Christen man ought to seeme newe in respecte of doctrine and faith If he beleeue the holy Scriptures describing the Church vnto vs he can not without folie in that respecte cal it newe The time may be newe or late bicause it commeth and passeth The Faithe and Doctrine remaineth one and the same not changed with the course of times Nowe as the Worde of God and our Faithe dureth for euer so Christes Churche being one and the same as it hath in al ages continewed so shal it continewe to the worldes ende This before hath benne prooued and by your selfe confessed The Councelles therefore I meane the doctrine of Faith opened discussed and agreed vppon in Councelles by the Bisshoppes whom the holy Ghost hath ordeined to rule the Churche Act. 20. Ephes 4. and by the Pastours and Doctours whome God placeth to the edefying of the Churche that we be not carried awaie by euerie winde of doctrine is not newe The discussion and plaine opening of it may be newe The doctrine is olde as truth it selfe is olde Ansvver to the obiection of the later CouÌ„celles being contrarie to the olde Your second cause why these later Councelles doo beare with you the lesse Authoritie is for that as you say they be so many waies contrarie to the olde It had benne good reason that if these later Councelles be so many waies contrarie to the olde you had shewed presently at the lest one of those so many waies Shal it be sufficient for you to geue out such a Reproche iâ— a matter of so greate Importance without any prousâ— at al It had benne plaine dealing at the lest to haue named some one Councel and to haue touched some one pointe wherein that Councel should be founde contrarie to the olde This therefore I lette passe for a Notorious and a Reprocheful Vntruthe boldely auouched but no waie proued Onely I aduertise the Reader that it is not possible any general Councel shoulde be contrarie to an other in matter of faith One Churche one faith and necessarie doctrine As the Churche in Faith is but one so the Faith discussed determined and agreed vpon in Councelles truely representing the whole body of the Churche is but one As the Churche can not be contrarie to it selfe in Faith so general Councelles assembled in the holy Ghoste can not be contrarie to them selues Marke wel good Sir what I saie One general Councel can not in a matter of faith be contrary to an other CouÌ„cel Math. 18. In doctrine and matter of Faith no lawful General Councel truely and rightly that is in vnitie and Charitie assembled hath or can at any time determine contrarie to an other likequalified For so the one should erre in Faith whereby Christes promise should seeme to faile who said wheresoeuer two or three are assembled together in my name there am I in the middest of them In my name faith S. Cyprian that is in vnitie and in the body That later Councelles haue determined some matters not before in other Councelles determined it is euident and not denied Heresies haue caused many matters to be more opened then they were before as S. Augustine noteth But new articles of the faith be not decreed in CouÌ„celles That also in matter of manners and of external order or gouernement some Councelles haue done coÌ„tratrarie to other according to the state of times and diuersitie of circumstances it is not denied Yea that it be so done sometime the state and present case of the Church of necessitie requireth it Aug. epist 5. ad Marcellinum For which S. Augustin saith notably Non itaque verum est quod dicitur semel rectè factum nullatenus esse mutanduÌ„ Mutata quippe teÌ„poris causa quod rectè antè factuÌ„ suerat ita mutari vera ratio pleruÌ„que flagitat vt cuÌ„ ipsi dicant rectè noÌ„ fieri si mutetur contrà veritas clamet rectè non fieri nisi mutetur quia vtruÌ„que tunc erit rectuÌ„ si erit pro teÌ„poruÌ„ varietate diuersum It is not therefore true which meÌ„ say looke what thing is once wel done it ought in no case to be changed For the state of the time being altered that thing which was wel done before good reason oftentimes requireth so to be changed that whereas they say it is not wel done if it be changed the truth on the other side crieth out It is not weldone if it be not changed bicause both shal then be right and wel if it shal be diuers according to the varietie of the time But that in matter of faith or doctrine Ansvver to that M Iâ—vvel obiecteth against the later CouÌ„cels for that by the same al our doctrines vvhiche they impugne 〈◊〉 conâ—irmed as is a fore said any General Councel lawfully assembled was euer contrarie to the other it is a mere vntruthe and a false sclaunder that can neuer be proued Where you say for a third cause or reason why these later CouÌ„cels are of lesse autoritie for that there is none of our errours so grosse and palpable but by some of them it hath ben coÌ„firmed to that we answer Quod das accipâ—mê° we admit gladly that in these late CouÌ„cels al such matters as we defend which it pleaseth yau to terme grosse and palpable errours haue ben confirmed We are then discharged and the whole Church of late yeres is charged But Sir being confirmed by General Councelles why cal you them Errours grosse and Palpable Saie you not also herein that the whole Churche erred at that time grossely and palpably Let vs take one Councel and one Age for example to auoide confusion of general discoursing and to bring this matter to some cleare issue The Lateran Councel vnder Innocentius 3. In the yere of our Lorde 1215. aboue three hundred yeres past in the General Councel holden at S. Iohn Laterane in Rome with ful consent of a thousand two hundred fourescore and fiue Fathers assembled there out of al partes of Christendome as wel out of the East Church as out of the West the Ambassadours and Oratours as wel of both Emperours being present as also of diuers other Kinges Princes and States it was by mature discussion found TransubstaÌ„tiatioÌ„ and agreed vpon and decreed so to be beleeued that in the blessed Sacrament of the Aulter due consecration being made the substance of breade is changed into the substance of the body of Christ and the substance of wine into the substaÌ„ce of his bloode the worde Transubstantiation whereby much that belongeth to that mysterie is by a coÌ„modious breuitie expressed was allowed the opinion of Berengarius was condeÌ„ned
This declaration and determination you take to be a grosse and a palpable errour For you are not ashamed you saie of Berengarius doctrine But Sir if this were a grosse and a palpable Errour how say you then did al those Patriarkes Archebisshoppes Bishoppes Abbates Doctours and learned Priestes grossely and palpably erre Did the Emperours both of the Grecians and of the Latines the Kinges of Fraunce Spaine England Hierusalem Cyprus whose Ambassadours and Oratours were there representing the personnes of their Princes and people to them subiecte did al these also erre with al their people and subiectes grossely and palpably This question then I demaund of you M. Iewel At these daies and in that age where was the Churche of Christe By you al erred grossely and palpably Berengarius him selfe whose doctrine was there condemned had both recanted his Heresie that you holde now and was longe before that time dead and buried There was not a man liuing at that daie who was knowen in the vnitie of the Churche to maineteine that doctrine whiche that Councel condemned and whiche you now doo mainteine Only Almaricus Almaricus is noted of the Chronographers to haue liued about the time of that Councel and to haue holden the heresie of Berengarius Pantaleō Bernard Lutzenburg Gaguinus Lib. 6. Pag. 48. But M. Iewel hath plainely renounced this Almaricus He said before of Abailard and Almarike and certaine other we haue no skil They are none of ours Then as I said there was not so muche as one man knowen at that time in the vnitie of the Churche and allowed by your iudgement to haue holden the opinion by that General Councel condemned This being so either that Councel helde the vnitie of Christes Churche or elles at that time Christe had no Churche at al. But Christes Churche endureth for euer Pag. 32. you haue your felfe before confessed it therefore we must beleue that the said Councel helde the vnitie of Christes Church and the doctrine by the Fathers of the same approued is the true and Catholique doctrine of the Churche and your Sacramentarie opinion to the contrarye at this daie is a condemned heresie In like sorte by Induction we might discourse of the other General Councelles But this one for example maie suffice to proue that the same pointes of doctrine which you cal grosse and palpable Errours M. Ievvel acknovvlegeth al the partes of doctrine vvher in he varieth from vs to be approued by the Churche in General Councelles fully discussed and confirmed in Councelles are no Errours at al but Catholike verities and truthes tried and confirmed by the highest and most infallible Authoritie that is in earth And we haue al good cause to reioise M. Iewel that by the force of truthe ye are driuen so freely and so plainely to graunt vnto vs the confirmation and Approbation of Councelles for al such pointes of doctrine as we defende against you termed by you modestly I trowe and without heate or choler Grosse and palpable Errours He must needes be a great fauourer of your secte that vpon the warrant of your mouth only wil holde the general determinations of Councelles for grosse and palpable Errours And very grosse must he be that seeth not the proude Luciferly sprite breathing forth of you in such a malapert and sawcy controllement of them whom God ordeined in their time to gouerne his Church No no M. Iewel your mouth is no iuste measure your penne is no right square your verdite is very insufficient for a dew resolutiō thereof to be taken in matters of such importance Yet haue you forsooth an example for your so doing and that of no lesse man then S. Augustine him selfe For thus you inferre to iustifie your former asseuerations Iewel Ibidem August Contra Maximin lib. 3. c. 14. Therefore vve maie iustly saie to you as S. Augustine sometime said to Maximinus the Arian heretike Neither maie I laie to thee the Councel of Nice nor maiest thou laie to me the Councel of Ariminum either of vs thinking thereby to finde preiudice against the other But let vs laie matter to matter cause to cause and reason to reason by the Authoritie of the Scriptures Harding How litle this place of S. Augustine serueth M. Iewels purpose and how falsly by him it is alleged How your therefore foloweth M. Iewel I see not The .19 Chapt. excepte you wil reason thus The later Councelles haue confirmed grosse and palpable errours Therefore you wil not that we should laye them against you no more then S. Augustine would laye the Nicene Coūcel against Maximinus the Arian See you not howe vntowardly this your therefore foloweth For admit that we graunted you that the late Councelles were erroneous which we wil not ne may not in any wise graunt you yet you wil not I trowe saie that the Nicene Councel also was erroneous If the Nicene Coūcel were not erroneous but a most Autentike and Catholique Councel what deduction can you make from the one to the other If S. Augustine had refused the Nicene Councel as you refuse the late Councelles that is if he had condemned the Nicene Councel of grosse and palpable errours as you doo condemne the later Councelles then had the example of S. Augustine serued your turne this being presupposed that these later Councelles were suche as you sclaunder them to be Now S. Augustine doth not so put of the Nicene Councel either as an erroneous Councel or as an Authoritie insufficient whereby to controlle the Heretike but partely bicause the Heretike quarelled about the name of an other Councel at Ariminum which was no lawful Councel in deede but a schismatical and heretical conuenticle and yet were there at it 800. Bishoppes but for wante of Damasus the Popes confirmation Sozom. lib. 6. cap. 23. Theodor. lib. 2. cap. 21. as Sozomenus and Theodoritus doo write it was accompted for none partely also bicause he sawe him selfe sufficiently instructed otherwise with holy scriptures to confute the Arian For these two causes to cut of occasion of longer brabling and to drawe the sooner to an issue for it was in an open disputation before a multitude not in priuate writinges carried to and fro S Augustine was content to laie aside the aduantage that he had of the Nicene Councel vpon condition the Arian would brable no more of the Councel of Ariminum This did S. Augustine of Christian policie and by occasion then ministred and not as geuing example to others to shake of al Authoritie of Councelles as you doo M. Iewel of a great many Againe you require vs to presse you no more with the late general Councelles of Laterane of Constāce of Florence of Trent and such other as the Arian required not to be pressed with the Nicene but you haue not so much as the name of one Councel of your parte for the whiche we might by waie of composition yelde our Councelles that you also might yelde
receiued of the Apostles Howe muche more stronger is that we saie now we folowe that which the Custome of the Church hath euermore holden whiche al this reasoning to and fro hath not ben able to plucke out of mens hartes and last of al which a ful General Councel hath confirmed So highly esteemed S. Augustine those things August li. 2. de Baptisme cap. 9. which M. Iewel of al other maketh lest accompt of And againe he saieth Concilia posteriora prioribus apud posterâ—s praepâ—nuntur Later CouÌ„cels preferred before the former for what cause The posteritie preferreth the Later Councelles before the Former Not as though the later should be contrarie to the former but bicause in the later CouÌ„cels the Church is alwaies better instructed through the contradictions of heretikes by occasion whereof matters are more exactely searched discussed and more clearely opened Like as the flint stoanes being knokte harde together fier flieth out and corne the more ye fifte it the purer it is tried so truthe by our aduersaries Contradictions is beaten out and doubteful pointes by long discussion and search are made plaine and cleare Therefore againe he saith Ibidem .li. 2. cap. 3. Ipsa plenaria Concilia saepe priora posterioribus emendantur cúm aliquo experimento rerum aperitur quod clausum erat cognoscitur quod latebat The very former general Councells are oftentimes corrected by the later Councells when as by some trial of maâ—â—er that thing is opened whiche before was close shut vp and that is knowen whiche before laie hid Yeâ— and this is the chiefe and best fruite The benefit and fruite of heresies August in Psal 54. super versum Diuisi sunt prae ira c. that heresies bring vnto the Churche as the same S. Augustine otherwhere declareth where he saith The matter of the blessed Trinitie was neuer wel discussed vntil the Arianâ— barked against it The Sacrament of Penaunce was neuer throughly handled vntil the Nouatians beganne to withstande it Neither the cause of Baptisme was wel discussed vntil the rebaptizing Donatistes arose and troubled the Churche Thus M. Iewel if you geue eare vnto S. Augustine whose example you seeme to claime by you shal learne of him not to refuse and renounce the authoritie of General Councels but to obey them and to yeeld dew reuerence vnto them yea though they be later and as you cal them new Truth draue M. Iewel to iustifie al our Doctrine wherein he dissenteth from vs. The 21. Chap. This oddes therefore remaineth betwen you and vs that our doctrine yea euery pointe thereof in cotrouersie now is by your owne confession approued by the later General Councelles and so we defende no doctrine of our owne nor mainteine any prophane Nouelties of our owne deuise but we folowe Saluberrimam authoritatem the most holesome and sounde authoritie as S. Augustine termeth it of General Councels that is to saie we folowe the voice of the whole bodie of Christes Churche most truely represented in Councelles the voice of Christes spouse yea the voice of Christe him selfe speaking to vs by his Churche and so speaking that he willeth him whiche heareth not the Churche to be accompted for a Heathen Matt. 18. and a Publicane Contrariewise your Doctrine M. Iewel is not only not authorized in General Councelles but also is clearely condemned by the same as for example that one maie serue in steede of many the General Councel of Laterane condemneth your Sacramentarie heresie Yet we thanke not you but the truthe that you haue this muche confessed for vs. And as S. Augustine said of the Donatistes so we saie most truely of you Vt illa omnia vel loquendo vel legendo pro causa nostra promerent atque propalarent Aug. contra Donatist post collat ca. 34. veritas eos torsit non charitas inuitauit That the Donatistes shoulde vtter and bring forthe either by talke or by allegation out of a booke al those thinges for behoofe of our matter the truth forced them it was not any charitie that inuited them The truthe I saie M. Iewel not any loue you beare to our cause forced you to confesse that there is none of our errours so you terme sundry weightie pointes of the Catholike Faith that by some of the late Councelles hath not benne confirmed We take that you geue vs right gladly in asmuch as it declareth you to be conuinced by witnesse of your owne mouthe For if the pointes of Faith and Religion wherein ye dissent from vs be approued and confirmed by authoritie of the Churche in General Councelles who seeth not what a good staffe we haue to leane vnto And who is that Christian man whiche wil not humbly beleue the same The Thirde Booke conteineth a Detection of certaine Lies Cauilles Sclaunders c. vttered by M. Iewel in the second parte of his pretensed Defence Iewel Pag. 88. VVhere ye fantasie that the Bodie of Christe in the Sacramente hath in it selfe neither Fourme nor Proportion nor Limitation of place nor Distinction of partes S. Augustine telleth you Spatia locorum tolle c. Take awaie from Bodies Limitation of place and the Bodies wil be no where Augu. ad DardanuÌ„ epist 57. And bicause they be nowhere they wil be nothing Take awaie from Bodies the qualities of Bodies there wil be no place for them to be in and therefore the same Bodies muste needes be no Bodies at al. Hereof vve maie conclude that the Bodie of Christe vvhich you haue imagined to be contiened grosly and carnally in the Sacrament for as much as by your ovvne confession it hath neither Qualitie nor Quantitie nor Fourme nor place nor proportiâ—â— of Bodie therefore by S. Augustines doctrine it is no Bodie Harding Answer to the Obiection made out of S. Augustine to Dardanus against the real presence of Christes Bodie in the Blessed Sacrament The. 1. Chapt. THE great confidence you haue in S. Augustines two sayinges in his 57. Epistle to Dardanus may much better serue your turne to skirmish with Brentius a Master of youres Brentius the autor of the heresie of the Vbi quetaries and a graund Captaine emong the Lutherans who spareth not by publique write to teache the world that Christes Humanitie is euerie where as his Diuinitie is then against the Catholique doctrine of Christes Bodily presence in the Blessed Sacrament wherein no suche errour is allowed that Christes humanitie should be euery where with his Godhead but it is auouched that Christe by his omnipotent power doth make his Bodie present in as many places as the Blessed Sacrament is duely Natural qualities suspeÌ„ded from Bodies by Goddes special povver Exod. 3. Daniel 3. Exod. 14. and rightly consecrated You are not ignorant M. Iewel but that you know that God by his special power hath suspended from diuers sortes of Bodies sundrie natural Qualities as he did suspende the action of burning from the Fire as wel in the
yet this man had he ben in Italie and seene what is there continually donne howe the Exorcistes doo in deede cast forth Deuilles in manner weekely as diuers of our owne Contriemenne that haue ben present can reporte he would for very shame if any were in him haue kepte in that negatiue Verely I feare me he wil one daie procede further and vtterly denie the Order of Bisshops to be necessarie bicause he can franckely say that the Bishops preache not his lustly Caluinian Gospel Yet I trowe he wil be good maister to the Superintendentes of England that be of his owne profession of whom some preache not and some haue not the learning to preache nor yet to tel a wise tale The Apologie Cap. 3. Diuis 2. Pag. 98. Yet notvvithstanding vvee say that there neither is nor can be any one man vvhiche may haue the vvhole superioritie in this Vniuersal state for that Christe is euer presente to assiste his Churche and needeth not any man to supplie his roome as his onely heire to al his Substance and that there can be no one mortal creature vvhiche is hable to comprehende or conceiue in his minde the vniuersal Churche that is to vvit al the partes of the vvorlde muche lesse hable rightly and duely to put them in Order and to Gouerne them Iewel Pag. 98. M. Hardinges ansvvere hereto is too long and tedious Harding I dare wel saie it is too tedious to you and glad would you be to be rid of it if you wist whiche waie Acknowlege the truthe M. Iewel returne from your errour leaue of scoffing suppresse singularitie deliâ—e not in the vaine praises that your ignorant fauourers geue you feare God thinke you can not continue in in this Brauerie alwaies then shal you finde liking in my answere and thinke it nothing to tedious Certaine it is the mater is not so sclenderly to be answered Iewel Pag. 98. VVhere vve saie no one mortal man is hable to vvealde the burthen of the vvhole Churche of God M. Harding ansvvereth vvhere any thing is in deed there vvhether it maie be or not to discusse it is needelesse Therefore vvhether any one man can be superiour and Chiefe ouer the vvhole Church vve leaue to speake that so it is thus vve prooue Euery parishe hath his seueral vicare or person and euerie Diocesâ— his ovvne Bisshâ—ppe Ergo vvhat reason is it there be one Chiefe Gouernour of the vvhole Christen people c. His firste reason concludeth very vveakely Euerie Parishe is Gouerned by one Vicare or Personne and euerie Diocese is gouerned by one seueral Bishop Ergo there is one vniuersal Gouernour ouer the vvhole Churche of Christe Here is neither order in reason nor sequele in nature Therefore of any man vvould denie the argument M. Harding vvere â—â—uer hable to make it good Harding The iustification of this Argument The .10 Chapt. Yeas forsooth the Argument may be proued very wel by this axioma or dignitie in nature vpon the which the Argument is grounded That the whole ought to be gouerned by one general Head whose seueral partes can not be gouerned without seueral Heades If your leisure serue you you may nowe traine the Argument that I was neuer hable to make good as you say for lacke of order in reason and sequele in nature if ye altogether haue not forgotten your Logique whereof you set vs forth so often crakes into the very forme of a good and perfite Syllogisme If your courage then serue you to denie the Argument you shal but disgrace your selfe in denying the groundes of that arte wherein you haue placed a great parte of your glorie and put your selfe to paine to make vs some newe Logique of your owne that menne may trust too Searche diligently the cause without scoffing and wrangling why the seueral partes of the vniuersal Churche Parishes Dioceses prouinces are not hable to be kepte in any good order without seueral heades the selfe cause shal infourme you that the vniuersal Churche may muche lesse be kepte in order without one general Head Render what causes you can M. Iewel you shal neuer be hable to auoide it before any learned companie but that the one shal folowe of the selfe same causes as wel as the other Whereas you runne to disprooue myne argument by making the like of euerie kingdome ruled by one Prince inferring Ergo there ought to be one vniuersal Prince to rule ouer the whole worlde I see no such absurditie in the conclusion of this Argument the seueral rightes of Princes reserued vntouched but that if you should talke with Aristotle that great Philosopher you should see good cause to graunt it If there were but one good Monarke in the whole worlde would there not be fewer broilles and warres in the worlde then nowe we feele Perhappes when the matter is wel weighed it may seeme the worlde was neuer in better state then when it was gouerned by one good Emperour Let a iuste Viewe be taken of Constantines time the Great Yet it must be confessed there is great difference betwixt the Ciuile gouernemeÌ„t of Princes who maie be permitted to rule their seueral Dominions without one general Head bicause they haue to do but with thinges of the worlde as with earthly goodes landes and such other thinges which may receiue diuers kindes of rule without danger of Soules and the Ecclesiastical gouernment whose chiefe respect is to keepe vnitie of Faith in the bonde of peace which may not receiue any alteration without great danger to our Saluation Therefore there is greater cause to haue one general Head or Supreme gouernour without whom this vnitie can not be kepte any long time Hiero. aduersus Iouinianum lib. 1. as S. Hierome witnesseth to rule the whole Churche in matters of Saluation then to haue one Head to rule ouer the whole worlde in wordely matters To your other scorneful Argument of one general Shepehearde to be hadde ouer al the flockes of 〈◊〉 throughout the whole world I wil frame answere when you can prooue that God hath as great care to bring al the shepe in the worlde to the selfe same glorie of life euerlasting as he hath to bring menne or that he hath appointed them any one general ende the whiche they can not atteine without the hauing of one general shepeherd to gouerne the whole kinde But S. Paule putteth al suche fonde reasons to silence by this question where he asketh 1. Cor. 9. Nunquid de bobus cura est Deo Hath God any such special care of kine and Oxen as he hath of menne Put vp such shepeherdes pipes for shame M. Iewel and leaue to piper vs vp such trifles If you minde thus to continue euery ignorant Reader at length shal espie what litle good stuffe ye vtter I made not these reasons for that menne should take them for very precise Demonstrations or for that euery one of them alone had ful force to conclude as though the whole weight
Al are committed to thee the one whole flocke to one Neither art thou onely the Pastour of al the sheepe but also the onely Pastour of al the Pastours Demaundest thou of me howe I prooue it Forsooth out of the woorde of God Ioan. 21. For I praie you to whom I wil not saie of the Bisshoppes but also of the Apostles were al the sheepe so absolutely and indeterminately committed If thou loue me Peter feede my sheepe whiche sheepe The people of this or of that citie of this or of that countrie or kingdome My sheepe quod he Who now doth not euidently see that Christe did not appointe him certaine but assigned him al Where no distinction is made there nothing is excepted Thus you see how litle cause you had to saie why doth M. Harding auouche so great a matter of him selfe onely without farther authoritie Iewel Pag. 103. And if this so large Commission be to Feede and feede so many vvhy then doth the Pope feede so litle Harding The Pope feedeth and why Christe appointed him to be his Vicare The stubbornesse of Heretiques is a lette The .18 Chapt. that his diligent feeding can not take place in many Howe manie Articles of the Christian Doctrine had the peruersitie of Heretiques wrapped vp in a Confusion and brought in doubte that fewe menne knewe howe to vnfolde them The Popes diligent feeding hath so by General Councelles through his authoritie and care assembled vnfolded and disclosed all the false craftes and sleightes of Heretiques that nowe euery man that wil maie haue in a readinesse by perusing the Canons of the Councelles what Doctrine is true and holesome what is false and heretical Of late yeares he emploied his diligence in calling all The Pope feedeth but some refuse his good foode and feede of Poison the Protestantes vnto the Councel of Trent he gaue them safe Conductes to come and departe without danger of their personnes and there during the time of their abode to propone argue and dispute of the pointes in cōtrouersie with al freedome VVhy the Ministers of England vvēt not to the General Councel at Trent most liberal and free Safe cōductes being graunted them But ye of England knowing your owne weaknesse and that ye were not so wel hable to prooue your doctrine in learned Assemblies as ye were with boasting Chalenges and bolde talkes to prate it out of pulpites emong the ignorant at home least with shame ye should there haue ben put to silence and prooued vnlearned wylily absented your selues Notwithstanding libertie was geuen you to come and saie for your Gospel what ye could and as it appeareth in the Actes of the same to frame your safe Conducte if ye desliked the fourme set foorth in the Councel in as ample manner for your owne safegarde and benefite as ye could deuise Iewel Pag. 103. Againe vvhere learned M. Harding to reason thus Christe is ascended into heauen Ergo the Pope is head of the vvhole vvorlde Harding Nay where learned M. Iewel to fashon suche peeuish argumentes of his owne deuise and fathering them vpon his Aduersarie to scoffe at them as if they were of his Aduersaries making If this Argument be naught let him amend it that framed it If it be ridiculous the Reader may see what a ridiculous head he hath that brought it forth My reason dependeth in this sorte If it had pleased Christ to haue remained here visibly emong vs alwaies and to haue taken continual order him selfe for the external gouernment of the Churche we should not haue needed any other general head but Christe him selfe who had ben sufficient But for asmuch as Christes bodily and visible presence through his Ascension was for good purposes taken awaie from vs that we might haue better occasion to exercise faith and the holy Sacramentes it was needeful that in his steede he should leaue some one General Vicegerent In. 24. caput Luca. and Vicare of his loue as S. Ambrose termeth him that should haue ful authoritie to rule the whole Churche The partes of this reason are wel linked together both by diuinitie and also by logique As M. Iewel hath framed it it serueth for nothing but to make sporte emong Prentises I allege not Christes Ascension for the ful and sufficient cause of hauing one general Head as M. Iewel would beare menne in hande if any be so simple to beleeue him The cause vvhy Christe hath placed his Vicare here in his stede Ambros in 24. cap. Lucae but as the occasion why he should place an other in the absence of his Visible person in his steede The necessitie of the Churche that disorder and confusion be auoided and that vnitie be kepte considered together with the great loue that Christe hath to the Churche is the ful cause why Christe placed in his steede a general Vicegerent Vicarium amoris sui the vicare of his loue as S. Ambrose calleth him Iewel Ibidem But ye saie God speaketh not novv vnto vs mouth to mouth c. Harding What rule is like to be if the Scripture be made ruler and gouernour Your drifte is in this place The. 19. Chapt. to put the whole gouernment of the Church quite from the Pope whom Chrysostome as I haue tolde you before taketh to be the vniuersal Head bicause he is S. Peters Successour and to driue vs to deliuer the whole rule vnto the Scripture and that being remoued quite from any one certaine sense and leafte to mennes Phantasies to descant vpon it What vnitie and good Order wil folowe thereof they of Germanie ye of England the Lutherans the Zuinglians the Caluinistes the Osiandrines the Zuencfeldians the Anabaptistes the new Puritanes that now spring vp so freshly and other sectes wherewith the worlde swarmeth haue tolde vs already the whiche could neuer yet come to any good vnitie and common agreement Ye leaue vs also an other sorte of gouernours Apostles Ephes 4. Prophetes Euangelistes Pastours and Doctours of whom S. Paule speaketh If these be the Gouernours appointed by holy Scripture how falleth it out that ye contrary to Scripture haue geuen the supreme gouernment of your Church of England to laye Princes some being vnder their nources gouernance some being women The cas◠thus standing if the Ministers agree not in doctrine hovv shal vnitie be made and the people kepte vnpoisoned If these forenamed the Apostles c. be the right gouernours how happeth it that they can doo nothing concerning Order to be taken for the Churche but by authoritie deriued from a mere laie power If these that is to saie the successours of the Apostles Prophetes c. be the right gouernours what if any of these iarre and fal at square emong them selues as it hath oftentimes ben seene either within the compasse of one Realme or in diuers Realmes and doo poison the people with sundry Heresies to whom shal we resorte to haue them called home and reduced vnto order whom haue
you least vs in this case as Iudge and supreme Gouernour to ende al Dissensions and to condemne perilous Heresies They of Germanie take them selues to be as good menne and to knowe the Truth as wel if no better as either D. Parker of Canturburie or M. Grindal of London or Bacheler Yonge of Yorke or any of the other wiued Priestes Monkes and Friers yea as M Iew. of Sarisburie him selfe Ye of England wil not yelde to them of Saxonie they of Lifeland Swethen Denmarke Pole Scotland Zuitzerland and Geneua wil not yelde them selues subiectes to either of you both And yet euery one of these sundry congregations wil preach stil the doctrine of their owne secte one coÌ„trarie to an other How now M. Iewel Let vs heare what wise tale you caÌ„ tel vs by whose authoritie we maie come from these great Dissensions and manifold Schismes to Vnitie Intreatie can not doo it Colloquies meetinges and Conferences of the learned of eche secte can not bring it to passe The more it hath ben attempted the worse ende hath euer benne concluded Haue not you leaft vs then a beautiful Church a blessed coÌ„panie of Ministers that wil not come to Order Yea leauing vs without any lawful authoritie of one Head to reduce vs to vnitie do you not leaue vs in endlesse strifes and indeterminable broilles Be we not much bound vnto you Were not the worlde wise and wel aduised to forsake al old orders and to put coÌ„fidence in this your new deuise The same selfe S. Chrysostome whom you allege to haue al ruled by the Scriptures sawe a litle farther then you see M. Iewel when he said that the charge of the whole worlde was committed to Peter Chrysost in Matth. Homil. 55. Ambros in cap. 24. Luca. Theodoritus in Epist ad Renatum Cyprianus lib. 3. Epist 13. So did S. Ambrose when he named Peter and by a consequent Peters Successour the Vicare of Christes loue So did Theodoritâ—â— when he said the See of Rome holdeth the sterne and hath the gouernment of the Churches of the whole worlde You allege S. Cyprian though farre otherwise then he writeth and that out of that epistle in whiche he willeth Stephanus the Pope to depose Martianus the Bishop of Arles in Fraunce for Heresie and put an other in his roome whiche argueth a supreme authoritie of gouernment in the Pope you allege him I saie as if he said that therefore there are many Bishoppes in the Churche that if one fal into heresie the rest maie helpe But what if there be as many Heretique Bishoppes as there be Catholique as it hath commonly benne seene in the East Churche What if the Heretiques being more learned wil not yeelde Cyprian ad Cornelium lib. 1. Epist. 3. S. Cyprian in an other place spareth not to tel you that Schismes aÌ„d heresies rise of no other cause then for that the whole brotherhed that is to saie the companie of Christian people Obeye not one high Prieste that is in Christes steede Whiche saying by what reason it taketh place in euery seueral Dioces by the same it is to be vnderstanded in respecte of the whole worlde For as Heresies rise of disobedience of the people to their Bishop so they rise no lesse yea rather muche more as experience teacheth of the disobedience of the Bishoppes them selues if they wil not be vnder one Head And as the people are not kepte in vnitie but by being vnder one Bishop so neither the Bishoppes excepte they be likewise vnder one chiefe Head and ruler who is the Successour of Peter to whom as louing Christe more then the reste whiche the Scripture sheweth the charge not onely of the lambes and weaker sheepe but also of the great and stronger sheepe was committed as S. Ambrose before alleged hath wel noted Whether S. Peter were faulte worthy when S. Paule reproued him as you tel vs without proufe Defence pag. 103. it remaineth in question betwixte S. Augustine and S. Hierome But if there were any thing worthy of reprehension in S. Peter that S. Paule sawe there was great humilitie in S. Peter to agnise the faulte by the warning of his inferiour Likewise there was in S. Victor the Pope in that he would geue eare vnto S. Ireneus Of that S. Peters humilitie thus speaketh S. Cyprian in his epistle to Quintus whiche is also rehearsed of S Augustine August li. 2. de Baptis cont Donatist cap. 1. Nam nec Petrus quem primum Dominus elegit super quem aedificauit Ecclesiam suam cùm secum Paulus de Circumcisione disceptaret postmodum vendicauit sibi aliquid insolenter aut arroganter assumpsit vt diceret se primatum tenere obtemperari à nouellis posteris sibi potius debere Example of humilitie to S. Peter For neither Peter whom our Lorde chose to be first and vppon whom he builded his Churche at what time Paule reasoned with him about Circumcision by and by chalenged any thing proudly vnto him selfe or stately tooke ought vpon him as to saie that he helde the Primacie or the chiefe rule ouer al and that suche as came newly to the Faith and were his aftercommers ought rather to obeie him But this kinde of humilitie is not found emong Heretiques The more courteously they be warned of their Heresie the more stubborne they growe and staie not so but doo the vttermost they can to make their parties as good as the Catholiques as by sundry olde heretiques to them that haue reade the Trâ—gedies by them plaied in the Churche is most euident How now M. Iewel What remedie Shal we resorte in this case to any Head that hath General authoritie or stand stil iarring and snarling the one at the other without alremedie For ought I see you are like to leaue vs stil in the briers Touching your gloses of the Canon Lawe they maie perhappes one daie if it shal be thought worth the labour be altogether answered in some one seueral treatise where doubtelesse it shal appeare to your smal estimation with what beggerly ragges and clowtes you haue patched together your clowted cloke Iewel Pag. 104. For the rest M. Harding saith One King is hable to rule one Kingdome Ergo one Pope is hable to rule the vvhole Churche Harding My talke runneth not so bare as you rehearse it your grace is alwaie to reporte worse then you finde I said that a King or Queene in gouerning a Realme ruleth not al in his owne person but doth many thinges by his Deputees and Officers Euen so why maie not the Pope in al Christendome take order by other fitte menne hauing from him commission notwithstanding his person be not present For very shame M. Iewel make not your Aduersaries tale worse then you finde it For by that you must muche discredite your cause Iewel Pag. 104. Of the gouernment of Princes vve haue daielie practise But of Popes that euer vsed this vniuersal Dominion ouer the vvhole Church of
we maie not beleeue the Pope if he be of a contrarie iudgement to Scripture Why did not you first proue that the Pope hath determined against the Canonical Scriptures wherin the whole weight of the mater lieth But your lucke is alway to leaue that vnproued which you should chiefly prooue and to encomber the Reader most with matters impertinent and quite besides the issue S. Augustines place would haue serued better to conclude that menne ought not to beleeue Heretiques whiche are certainely deceiued if they maie not beleeue Catholiques when they be deceiued But then where were your credite become who are proued to be suche Wolues and Traitours as S. Bernard spake of in Goncilio Remensi whiche Councel you allege so often times Pag. 104. Iewel Pag. 107. S. Hierome saithe Dices super Petrum fundatur Ecclesia Hieron Aduersus Iouinian lib. 1. Licet idipsum in alio loco super omnes Apostolos fiat cuncti claues regni coelorum accipiant ex aequo super omnes Ecclesiae fortitudo solidetur Ye vvel saie The Churche is founded vpon Peter Notvvithstanding in an other place the same thing is donne vpon al the Apostles and al receiue the keies of the kingdome of heauen and the strengthe of the Churche is founded equally vpon them al. Harding M. Iewel allegeth this and other places to his owne confusion The. 22. Chapt. What il fortune hath M. Iewel euer to allege the Fathers to his owne shame That so he doth it appeareth by many other and by this very place of S. Hierome against Iouinian whiche he allegeth maimedly cutting of the halfe sentence For the other halfe sentence is this tamen propterea inter duodecim vnus eligitur vt Capite constituto Schismatis tollatur occasio Yet emong the twelue there is one chosen out to thintent he being ordeined Head the occasion of Schisme be taken awaie Thus S. Hierome there If I had nipte of such a notable peece of a sentence M. Iewel would haue benne at me with the Chinecough c. It had serued S. Hieromes turne better reasoning against Iouinian the Heretique who affirmed the state of Virgins to be of no greater perfection then the state of married personnes as M. Iewel doth also at this daie which heresie S. Hierome confuted neuer to haue graunted that S. Peter who had ben a married man was ordeined to be the Head of the Churche if it had benne as M. Iewel would persuade But bicause the truth was that S. Peter was appointed Head emong the Apostles S. Hierome doth not denie it but sheweth the cause why he was preferred before S. Ihon the Euangelist This is M. Iewels plaine dealing What is falsehod if this be not falsehod Iewel Pag. 107. S. Chrysostome of Peter saith thus Crysost in Matth. hâ—mil 83. Duplex crimen erat tum quia repugnauit tum quia caeteris seipsum praeposuit Peter vvas in double faulte bothe for that â—e vvithstoode Christe and also fâ—r that he set him selfe before the reste Harding The common saying is the blinde eateth many a flie Euen so doth M. Iewel for lacke of dewe consideration deuoure many a soule errour S. Chrysostome hath not one iote in this place that maketh for M. Iewel He speaketh of that stoute confidence that Peter had of him selfe when he said Mat. 26. Tvvo faultes coÌ„mitted by S. Peter Zacha. 13 Although they al meaning the reste of the Apostles shal be offended by thee I wil not be offended by thee Neuerthelesse he offended twise saith S. Chrysostome First in that he withstoode Christe and considered not what was alleged out of Zacharie the Prophet before who said I wil smite the shepeheard and the sheepe shal be scattered Yet S. Peter were it for the great loue and the affection that he bare to his Maister or were he touched with some ambition and trusted to wade through of him selfe without farther helpe of special grace warranted the mater that he would neuer fal from Christe There is one of his faultes The other faulte is Quoniam praeposuit se illis bicause he prefered him selfe before the other Apostles What meaneth that M. Iewel saie you What so euer you would menne should thinke of it it maketh no mater The right meaning of the place is that Peter offended the second time bicause he thought him selfe more sure as touching standing to his Maister then al the reste of the Apostles What is this to the meaning that you would faine wring out of this place that Peter was not Head of the Apostles In the selfe same Homilie before S. Chrysostome calleth him verticem Apostolorum the very Head and chiefest of al the Apostles EtiaÌ„ ipsum ApostoloruÌ„ verticem negare permisit Christ suffered saith he the toppe or head him selfe of the Apostles to denie him Againe S. Chrysostome faithe in an other Homilie as is afore tolde that Peter had committed vnto him the charge Chrysost hom 55. in Matt. and gouernment of the whole worlde Thus you may see how al thinges go against the heare as they say with you M. Iewel thus alwaies to allege suche sayinges out of the Fathers as further not your cause but rather hinder it So shal al they doo that fight against the Truth Ievvel Pag 107. Augustin epist 86. S. Augustine maketh Peter Felovve and Equal vvith the other Apostles Inter seconcorditer vixerunt Petrus Condiscipuli eius Peter and his felovves liued agreably together Harding Peter felow Disciple with the rest and yet Head of al by S. Augustine The 23. Chapt. Peter and they that were Christes Disciples with him liued concorditer for that is S. Augustines worde in good concorde together I graunt what conclude you thereof So did Christe and the Apostles liue in concorde and agreably together and yet there was a difference betwen them pardy If you harpe vpon the terme Condiscipuli Ioan. 15. Matt. 28. whiche you interprete felowes Christe calleth his Apostles in one place his frendes and in an other place his brothers And yet euery wise man confesseth a difference and that Christe was their Head and that they were his Disciples and subiectes Euen so maie we iudge of this Felowship that was betwen Peter and the reste of the Apostles How be it in the selfe same Epistle of S. Augustine S. Peter is called Caput Apostolorum Coeli ianitor Ecclesiae fundamentum Augustin epist 86. The Head of the Apostles the porter of Heauen and the foundation of the Churche Which saying not being S. Augustines owne but an other mans yet his sileÌ„ce in not speaking against it in that place proueth that he doth wel allow it And that to be euen so the same S. Augustine in a Sermone whiche he made to the people vnto whom he spake alwaies without al obscuritie the plaine truth calleth S. Peter Head of the Churche saying Augustin de tempo Ser. 124. Head of the churche Totius corporis
watche ye c. That it shoulde not be thought he meant only of the Apostles to whom he spake he added in the ende not as M. Iewel falsely reporteth quod vni dico omnibus dico that I saie to one I saie to al but quod autem vobis dico omnibus dico vigilate Marc. 13. What I saie to you my Apostles that I saie to al Christians who so euer they be watche ye Now commeth me M. Iewel in and by this place would proue that the wordes whiche our Sauiour spake to Peter in S. Iohn concerning the commission he gaue him to Feede his Lambes and his Sheepe were spoken not to Peter alone but to al the Apostles And why Forsooth bicause in this place of S. Marke Christe geuing a general warning to watche against our Lordes comming said What I saie to you I saie to al. To al M. Iewel But what said Christe to al Pascite No forsooth good Sir that he said to al was Vigilate Watche ye Certainely the vnlearned that reade your bookes had neede to watche your fingers This is M. Iewels worthy Argument this is the libertie he geueth vnto him selfe this is his new profounde Logique He might by this Scripture as easily haue concluded that al Christians as wel of the laie and secular sorte were as wel commaunded to Feede Christes Lambes and sheepe as Peter him selfe or the other Apostles For if he wil grate vpon the wordes not as he falsly allegeth them quod vni dico omnibus dico what I saie to one I saie to al whiche are not in the Scripture but quod autem vobis dico omnibus dico what I saie to you myne Apostles I saie to al Christians Why maie not euery Tinker and Sowter take vpon him to Feede Christes Lambes and Sheepe saying if he be rebuked for his presumption He that said to Peter Feede my Sheepe said he not to al in general What I saie to one I saie to al And if he said to al wherefore shoulde I not feede Christes flocke as wel as Peter Yea if either S. Markes Scripture What I saie to you myne Apostles I saie to al or M. Iewels scripture what I saie to one I saie to al maie take place and be vnderstanded in general what neede shal there be of Bishoppes Priestes Ministers or of any Order at al sith that by M. Iewels interpretation what was spoken to one or moe Apostles was spoken to al menne and wemen indifferently Suche good order wil ensue of M. Iewels disorderly handling of the Scripture Yea whereas Christe said to Iudas quod facis fac citius By M. Ievvels diuinitie it may be proued that euery man is bid to make speede in betraying Christe Ioan. 13. 1. Cor. 3. doo quickely that thou arte about to doo euery man shal betraie Christe againe For after M. Iewels diuinitie Christe said what I saie to one I saie to al. O worthy clerke Nay ô miserable people where suche corrupters of Scripture haue charge of soules Iewel Pag. 108. S. Paule saithe VVhat is Peter vvhat is Paule but the Ministers of Christe through vvhom ye haue beleeued Paule hath planted Apollo hath vvatered c. Harding This place of the Scripture and two other of S. Chrysostom answered by whiche M. Iewel would proue that Peter had no preminence in gouernment aboue the other Apostles What conclude you thereupon The .27 Chapt. That there is no difference of preeminence betwixte the Apostles Or that al the ministers of the Church are equal Bishoppes Priestes and Deacons I marueile why ye allege it S. Paules meaning is in that place that the Sacramentes take not force to worke grace by any minister be he of high or lowe degree be he good or be he otherwise The vertue of the Sacramentes is geuen by Christe who is the principal geuer of grace by his Sacramentes as by instrumentes Ergo saith M. Iewel Peter hath no more preeminence to rule the whole Churche then the reste of the Apostles How doo the iointes of this argumente hang together By some newe kinde of Logique I suppose Certaine it is the worlde hitherto neuer knewe any suche Iewel Pag. 108. In Epist ad Galat. Cap. 1. Chrysostome saith Angeli quamlibet magni tamen serui sunt ac ministri The Angelles of God be they neuer so great yet are they but Seruantes and Ministers Harding As wel maie you beate downe the preeminence that Emperours and kinges haue vpon their laie subiectes by that place of S. Paule for kinges and Emperours are but Ministers as to ouerbeare thereby the preeminence of Peter in gouernment aboue the reste of the Apostles Yea you maie as wel conclude thereby a plaine equalitie suche as the Anabaptistes woulde haue emong al Christen men as equalitie of Authoritie emong the Apostles What meane you M. Iewel Wil you by suche a texte conueie to al subiectes equal power and authoritie with Kinges to al Deacons with Priestes to al Priestes with Bishoppes to al wiues with their husbandes to al Children with their parentes to al scholers with their Maisters Meane you to bring the worlde to suche a Confusion It were good you had the counsel of some learned Physician to purge you of suche wilde disordered humours or at least to keepe you close in some darke place til you come to your selfe againe For these phantastical dreames signifie your braine is not in good tempre Iewel Pag. 108. Chrysost homil 2. in Epist ad Timoth. 2. Therefore to conclude he saith Ne Paulo quidē obedire oportet si quid proprium dixerit si quid humanum sed Apostlo Christum in se loquentem circumferenti VVee maie not beleeue Paule himselfe if he speake any thing of his ovvne or of vvorldely reason but vve must beleeue the Apostle bearing aboute Christe speaking vvithin him Harding Thus you reason wee maie not beleeue Paule if he speake any thing of his owne Ergo Peter had no preeminence aboue the reste of the Apostles Logique must needes be good cheape where this wise argument commeth to market for good chaffer Where findeth M. Iewel this newe proper Logique As wel might he conclude Ergo Christe hath no preeminence aboue the Apostles If we searche and examine S. Chrysostom wel wee shal finde that he spake those wordes against them that take vpon them to iudge and to condemne the life of Priestes and thereupon breake from the vnitie of Religion Of whiche sorte M. Iewel is one who hath now a good while sitten in his throne of Iudgement as it were and hath condemned the Pope and the whole clergie and forsaken the Catholique faith and the vnitie of the Churche for none other cause for ought that he can allege but onely for the Popes il life and for the negligence of some of the clergie Looke wel vpon that Homilie of S. Chrysostome M. Iewel and you shal perceiue that his discourse is as muche directed against your owne arrogant manner in condemning
should chalenge that name vnto him These thinges are at large proued and set forth bothe by me in my Answer Ansvver to your Chalenge Artic. 4. fol. 90. b. Returne Artic. 4. and by M. Stapleton in his Returne of Vntruthes against you M. Iewel where you shal finde that S. Gregorie did exercise his iurisdiction ouer al the Bishops in the worlde in case they failed in any thing and tooke him selfe to haue cure and charge of them al not as a King and Tyrant but as a brother yea rather a seruant to al. Gregor Lib. 7. Epist 64. For he confesseth euery Bishop to be his equal so long as he sinneth not or as longe as his Church suffereth not some defecte And in that case he supplieth al negligences and al defectes and prouideth for al Churches in Asia in Europa and in Aphrica as his Epistles doo fully declare The whiche if I were disposed here ambitiously to blase as M. Iewelles custome is I might write out the effecte of twelue great bookes of S. Gregories epistles whiche doo fully proue these my sayinges But for so muche as that is already donne sufficiently let this one sentence serue for al. S. Gregorie saith of his owne Church of Rome The Apostolike See Head of al churches Gregor li. 11. epist 54. Apostolica Sedes omnium Ecclesiarum Caput est The Apostolike See is the Head of al Churches This being so let vs now consider that M. Iewel doth not only mislike with the name of Vniuersal Bishop as not becoÌ„ming the Bishop of Constantinople because he was of lower degree then the Bishop of Rome nor only as vnseemely also for the Bishop of Rome bicause it conteineth a proude and ambitious brag and a meaning that may be taken in euil sense for which cause no Bishop of Rome euer vsed that name Defence pag. 118. but also he misliketh with me for saying that the name of Vniuersal Bishop in a right sense is no proude name in respect of him to whom it belongeth By a right sense I meane that sense which S. Gregorie allowed and that whiche the fourth general Councel allowed Yea farther M. Iewel saith that some Popes would haue had Ibidem and ambitiously laboured for the title of Vniuersal Bisshop and againe that the Councel of Carthage forbad the Pope of Rome to be called the Vniuersal Bisshop Al these thinges are false and fond as now it shal be proued Gregor li. 4. epist 32 ad Mauricium IteÌ„ eodeÌ„ lib. epist 36. ad Eulogium Anastasium Item codem lib. epist 38. ad Iohannem CoÌ„stantinop Gregor li. 4. epist 36 Tâ—e name of Vniuersal Bishop offered to Popâ— Leo by the Councel of Chalcedon The name of Vniuersal 8. in vvhat sense agreable to the â—ope Firste S. Gregorie witnesseth that the fourthe Councel offered the name of Vniuersal Bishop to Pope Leo â–ª Therefore saie I there is a good meaning in that name whiche the See of Rome maie laufully vse For it is not to be thought that the fourth Vniuersal Councel assembled out of the whole worlde wherein were six hundred thirty and six Bishops would haue offered that name vnto the Pope whiche by no meanes could be verified of him S. Gregories wordes are these written to Eulogius and Anastasius the two patriarches of Alexandria and of Antioche Sicut veneranda vestra sanctitas nouit vni per sanctam Chalcedonensem synodum Pontifici sedis Apostolicae cui Deo disponente deseruio hoc Vniuersitatis nomen oblatum est As your Reuerend holines knoweth this name of Vniuersalitie or of Vniuersal Bishop was offered by the holy Councel of Chalcedon to the only Bishop of the Apostolike See wherein I serue by the disposition of God If then that name of Vniuersalitie was offered to the Pope and onely to him how can it be iustified that the said name may in no sense be agreeable vnto the Pope of Rome If it may be agreeable vnto the Pope in any sense it is in this bicause he is the chiefe of al Bishops who by office hath care of the whole Churche For the name of Vniuersal must needes haue respecte to the Whole Churche And in that only sense did the Fathers of that Councel of Chalcedon offer that name to the Pope bicause they knew that thing dignitie and office to be in the Pope for that he is S. Peters Successour whiche cause also is expressed in S. Gregorie Gregor lib 4. epist 32. Certè nomen Vniuersalis Episcopi pro beati Petri Apostolorum Principis honore per venerandam Chalcedonensem SynoduÌ„ Romano Pontifici oblatum est Soothly the name of Vniuersal Bishop was offered by the reuerend Councel of Chalcedon to the Bishop of Rome for the honour of S. Peter the Prince of the Apostles Marke M. Iewel he saith not that it was offered bicause Rome was the Emperial Citie That had ben a heathnish respecte but it was offered for the honour of S. Peter If it may then be vsed in a good sense only of that Bishop who is the Successour of S. Peter M. Iewel hath vniustly reproued me That no Pope vsed the title of Vniuersal Bishop Gregor li. 4. epis 32 Now to the second point that no Pope vsed the same title So saith S. Gregorie in the same place Nullus corum vnquam hoc singularitatis vocabulum assumpsit nec vti consensit ne dum priuatum aliquid daretur vni honore debito Sacerdotes priuarentur vniuersi None of the Bishops of Rome hath taken this name of Singularitie vpon him nor did consent to vse it lest whiles some peculiar thing should be geuen to one al Priestes or Bishops together should be depriued of their due honour This modestie was then in Popes for six hundred yeres together But this man here saith Iewel Pag. 118. VVherfore then did their Successours that folovved aftervvard so ambitiously labour to geate the same Harding They laboured not for it nor vsed it any time afterward as their style in al ages til this day doth witnesse For the Bishoppes of Rome doth not write them selues Vniuersal Bishops The Popes stile Seruus seruoruÌ„ Dei but eche one Seruum Seruorum Dei the Seruant of Goddes Seruantes And that style was of purpose taken and reteined of them to checke thereby the pride of the Bishop of Constantinople who neuer leaft his proude name of Vniuersal til the Turcke was sent ouer him to chasten bothe him for his Shisme and al that defended or obeied him in despite of the Bishop of Rome And that you bring out of Platina proueth not that any Pope euer called him selfe Vniuersal Bishop but when the Bishops of Rome sawe that the Bishops of Constantinople would needes by force keepe and vse that arrogant name Bonifacius 3. then Bonifacius the third intending to stay that together with that name the right of the See Apostolike should not be lost and passe away to the See of Constantinople then I
saie Bonifacius obteined verely not that the See of Rome should be made Vniuersal or be made Head of al Churches for so it was euer but that it might be so taken and called of al men lest the Grecians should thinke that the chiefe Pastour of Gods sheepe sate in Constantinople Whereof it would folow that if the chiefe Postour once taught Heresie as now the Bishop of Constantinople doth concerning the proceding of the holy Ghost then the whole Church should perish sith al the flocke dependeth vpon the chiefe shepeheard Now M. Iewel as he is woont to doo hath most guilefully endeuoured to persuade the Reader that the Popes cal them them selues Vniuersal Bishoppes and bringeth Platina forth in suche sorte that he wil not let him speake his whole minde His wordes are these Platina in vita Bonifacij 3. Bonifacius tertius à Phoca Imperatore obtinuit magna tamen contentione vt sedes beati Petri Apostoli quae caput est omnium Ecclesiarum ita diceretur haberetur ab omnibus quem quidem locum Ecclesia Constantinopolitana sibi vendicare conabatur fauentibus interdum malis Principibus affirmantibúsque eò loci primam sedem esse debere vbi Imperij Caput esset Affirmabant Romani Pontifices vrbem Romam vnde Constantinpolis Colonia deducta est Caput Imperij meritò habendam esse cùm etiam Graeci ipsi literis suis principem suum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est Romanorum Imperatorem vocent ipsique Constantinopolitani etiam aetate nostra 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 non Graeci vocentur Omitto quòd Petrus Apostolorum Princep◠Successoribus suis Pontificibus Romanis regni coelorum claues dederit potestatémque à Deo sibi concessam reliquerit non Constantinopoli sed Romae Illud tamen dico multos Principes maximè verò Constantinum comparandae Synodi ac dissoluendae confutandi vel confirmandi ea quae in Synodis decreta erant Romanae sedi tantummodo concessisse Meritò igitur sedes Romana caeteris antefertur cuius integritate constantia cunctae haereses confutatae sunt explosae Boniface the third obteined of Phocas the Emperour although not without great difficultie that the See of the blessed Apostle Peter whiche is the Head of al Churches should both so be called and also taken of al men the which place or preferment the Churche of Constantinople went about to chalenge wicked princes sometimes helping foreward the matter affirming that the chiefe See ought to be in that place where the Head of the Empire was The bishops of Rome auouched that the citie of Rome was for good cause to be taken for the Head of the Empire as from whence the citie of Constantinople had benne translated Whereas also the Grecians them selues cal their Prince the Emperour of the Romains and they of Constantinople euen in our daies are called Romaines and not Grecians I let passe how Peter the prince of the Apostles gaue vnto his Successours the Bishops of Rome the Keies of the Kingdom of Heauen and leafte the power that was geuen him of God not to Constantinople but to Rome Onely this I saie that many Princes but specially Constātine graunted to the See of Rome only power and authoritie to gather and dissolue Councels to reiecte and allow those things that were decreed in Synodes Therefore the See of Rome is worthily preferred before the rest as by whose integritie and constancie al Heresies haue ben confuted and quite put awaie This was the Platina M. Iewel whom you alleged and durst not let him to tel out his tale But he saith not that the Popes laboured to be called Vniuersal Bishops but onely to staie the Grecians from a false and erroneous opinion and to kepe them in the vnitie of the Romaine Churche from whence that vsurped name did by litle and litle withdraw them Thus haue we seene two errours of yours the one Three errours of M. Ievv touching this point of vniuersal Bishop whereas you reproue me for saying that the name of Vniuersal taken in a right sense is no prowd name in respect of the Bishop of Rome the other bicause you impute to the Bishops of Rome that they laboured for that ambitious name The third errour foloweth Pag. 118. which is worse then the other two For you saie these be the wordes of the Coūcel of Carthage as Gratian allegeth them Dist 99. Prima Vniuersalis Episcopus nec ipse Romanus Pontifex appelletur The Bishop of Rome him selfe may not be called the vniuersal Bishop And this thing you prosecute Pag. 121. 122. and repeate againe and againe But you belie the Councel and Gratian and the Glose too al at once And yet you are so highly auaunced in your owne conceite that ye seeme to make a glorious triumphe for it Thus you saie Iewel Pag. 121. Novv M. Harding compare our vvordes and the Councelles vvordes together VVe saie none othervvise but as the Councel saith The Bishop of Rome himselfe ought not to be called the Vniuersal Bishop Herein vve do neither adde nor minish but reporte the vvordes plainely as vve finde them If you had lookte better on your booke and vvould haue tried this mater as you saie by your learning ye might vvel haue reserued these vnciuil reproches of falshed to your selfe and haue spared your crying of shame vpon this defender Harding I neuer cried so ofte shame vpon the Defender as he deserued and that he is a shamelesse man it shal now be here as cleerly tried as euer it was before I laie three maine Lies to your charge in this mater Three main lyes laid to M. Ievvels charge Pag. 118. Pag. 121. Let the worlde vnderstande how wel ye are hable to discharge them One for that you say the Coūcel of Carthage forbiddeth the Pope to be called Vniuersal Bishop An other for that you saie that Gratian saith so The third for that you saie that so muche is noted in the Glose First the Councel of Carthage is extant bothe in Greke and in Latin but those wordes be founde in neither of bothe Copies In Greeke the Decree is thus vttered 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In whiche wordes there is no mention made of the Vniuersal Bishop Now the Latin wordes are these in the first booke of the Councels Carthag Conc. 3. c. 26. Vt primae sedis Episcopus non appelletur Princeps Sacerdotum aut summus Sacerdos aut aliquid huiusmodi sed tantùm primae sedis Episcopus It is by vs decreed that the Bishop of a first See be not called the Prince of Priestes or the highest Priest M. Iev falsifieth the Coūcel of Carthage In Nomocanon or any the like but onely the Bishop of a first See Where also no mention is made of the Vniuersal Bishop Balsamon also making a Comment vpon the same Canon yet speaketh no worde of the Vniuersal Bishop We see then plainely that M. Iewel hath falsified the said Canon by
and the Popes to be his successours He hath shewed also how the other Apostles were equal with Peter and how in other respectes they had lesse power for ordinarie continuance in their successours then Peter had But if I were of M. Iewels boasting humour I should now dissemble al this and write it in here a fresh as though nothing had benne said thereof before But I trowe wise men espie that smoky pride in him wel ynough I wisse lesse bookes might haue serued him for any good stuffe that is to be founde in them The fourth Booke conteineth a ful refutation of al that M. Iewel hath laid together in his pretensed Defence touching the Succession of Bishops in the Churche from the Apostles time vnto this present age Item a proufe of the necessitie of Confession WRITING the Confutation of the Apologie I had occasion to speake of the Succession of Bishoppes Thereto M. Iewel in his pretensed Defence hath replied at great length Wherein bicause he may perhaps to the vnlearned seme to haue some colour of aduantage against vs the matter being of good weight I iudge it not vnprofitable to bestow some labour and here to coÌ„fute his whole Defence touching that point whereby I doubte not it shal appeare how litle credite he deserueth if his sayinges be throughly examined where he blazeth forth most shew of learning That it maie appeare how directly he answereth the pointes of this Controuersie and of what pith his owne sayinges and how muche to the purpose his testimonies be and how truly alleged and that al be made the more plaine and cleere I wil reherse first the place of the Apologie that gaue me occasion to treat of Succession then the wordes of my Confutation against whiche M. Iewel bendeth the force of his Defence After this I wil laie forth his whole Defence sentence by sentence worde by worde as I finde it in his booke and so briefly as I can refel the same I am driuen to reherse that discourse of my Confutation againe bicause a great parte of the Defence depending thereof and being directed against the same onlesse it were againe by rehersal commended to the readers view and memorie our whole disputation would be obscure and vncertaine And this haue I donne also the rather to thintent the reader might haue that parte of my Confutation intier and whole whiche M. Iewel hath caused to be set forth in his booke pared hewed dismembred and altogether disgraced The Apologie parte 2. Cap. 5. Diuis 1. in the Defence Pag. 125. Furthermore vve saie that the miâ—ister ought laufully duely and orderly to be preferred to that office of the Church of God and that no man hath povver to vvrest him selfe into the holy Ministerie at his ovvne pleasure VVherefore these persons do vs the greater vvrong vvhiche haue nothing so common in their mouthes as that vve do nothing orderly and comely but al thinges troublesomly and vvithout order and that vve allovv euery man to be a priest to be a teacher and to be an interpretour of the scriptures Confutation fol. 56. a. Al from starre to starre leafte out by M. Ievvel Saing and doing are two thinges Ye saye wel in outward appearance Would God your doing were accordingly Albeit the manner of your saying had ben more coÌ„mendable if in so weighty a point you had spokeÌ„ more particularly and distinctly not so generally and confusely * Ye saye that the minister ought laufully to be called for so hath your Latine and duely and orderly to be preferred to that office of the Churche of God Why do ye not so why is not this obserued among you Gospellers What so euer ye meane by your Minister and by that office this are we assured of that in this your new Church Bishops Priestes Deacons Subdeacons or any other inferiour Orders ye haue none No holy orders among the gospellers Leâ—â— out by M. Ievvel In saying thus we speake not of our Apostates that be fledde from vs vnto your congregations Who as they remaine in the order which they receiued in the catholike Church so being diuided and cut of from the Church and excommunicate laufully they may not minister the sacramentes * For where as after the doctrine of your newe Gospel like the foreronners of Antichrist ye haue abandoned thexternal Sacrifice and priesthod of the newe Testament and haue not in your secte consecrated Bishops and therefore being without Priestes made with lawfull laying on of handes as Scripture requireth al holy Orders being geuen by Bishops only how can ye saie that any among you can laufully minister or that ye haue any lauful Ministers at al This then being so let me haue leaue to oppose one of these Defenders consciences And that for the better vnderstanding I may directe my wordes to a certaine person let him be the author of this Apologie or bicause his name to me is vnknowen let him be M. Iewel for with him gladly would I reason in this point the rather for acquaintaince and for that he beareth the name of a Bishop in that Churche where my selfe had a rome How saye you Syr minister Bishop ought the Minister to be laufully called ought he duely and orderly to be preferred to that office or as the Latine here hath promoted or put in authoritie ouer the Church in the Apologie this Defender saith yea Leaft out by M. Ievvel Then answer me directely How proue you your selfe laufully called to the roume you take vpon you to occupie First touching the ordinary Succession of Bishops from which as you knowe S. Iraeneus Tertullian Optatus and S. Augustine bring argument and testimonie of right and true religion do you allow the same with those fathers or no If not then dissent you from the learned and most vncorrupte antiquitie which is not reasonable neither then are you to be heard If yea then how can you recken vs vp your succession by which you may referre your imposition of handes and consecration to some of the Apostles or of their scholers as the foresaid fathers did to repel the nouelties of heresies and defende their continual possession of the Churche Which if ye go about how can ye but to the great hinderance of your cause bewraye your weake holde For whereas succession of doctrine must be ioyned with the succession of persons as Caluine in his institutions affirmeth and Beza auouched at the assemblie of Poyssi in Fraunce and we also graunt Succession of doctrine ioyned vvith succession of persons how many Bishoppes can you recken whom in the Churche of Sarisburie you haue succeded as wel in doctrine as in outward sitting in that chayre How many can you tel vs of that being your Predecessours in order before you were of your opinion and taught the faithful people of that Dioces the doctrine that you teache Dyd Bishop Capon teach your doctrine did Shaxton did Campegius did Bishop Audley Briefly did euer any Bishop of that See
is the Priest which after the order of Melchisedech offereth vp vnto God those that beleue in him by a seruice of godly worship which passeth the law Why would you not see those wordes that folowed in Cyrillus M. Iewel First Christ had a Predecessour in his Priesthod euen Melchisedech the high Priest Secondly Melchisedech is here declared to haue offered vnto God and that Christ in offering vnto God fulfilled his figure whereas you would haue Melchisedech to make his oblation to Abraham and not to God Thirdly the thing offered by Melchisedech was not only bread and wine but Abraham the Father of al beleeuers was offered vnto God by Melchisedech And so Christe in his last Supper offered vnto God not now bread and wine only but by his almighty power he turned the bread into the seede of Abraham and so he offered vnto God al the faithful which by reason of their head Christ being truly conteined vnder the formes of bread and wine were also signified present as members ioined with the head and so were al offered â—nto God Now whereas Christ was of the tribe of Iuda that made for him for out of that tribe the Messias was looked for by the Succession of the hâ—â—se of Dauid as the Pharisees them selues confessed And thereby they ought to haue vnderstanded that their Succession from Aaron should yeeld vnto the Succession of Dauid who had said that his Lorde Psal 109. and Sonne should be also a Priest after the order of Melchisedech And the Iewes knew that they ought to haue yelded to their Messias as to their chiefe head so long before promised If you can shew vs M. Iewel that as Christ was prophecied of to put the Priestes of Aaron out of their places so Luther Zuinglius or Caluine was prophecied of to destroie the Succession of S. Peter we yeeld vnto you But as the high Priestes and Pharisees were neuer bound to yeeld vnto any maÌ„ but only vnto Christ at his first comming so S. Peters Successours ought neuer to yeeld but only to Christ at his second comming And so by al meanes the Succession is perpetual and the true Religion neuer lacked it visible and cleare as this new Religion doth which for lacke of it can not possibly stand long no more then that of the Arians or of the Nestorians did Sap. 4. For Bastard slippes take not deepe rootes And therefore though they seeme to florish for a time yet soone they vanish away But the Tree which Christe hath planted that onely shal endure for euer That saie we is the Chaier of Peter with al suche Successions of Bishops as keepe them in the vnitie of Peters Chaier Iewel Chrysostome imagineth the Pharisees thus to say Chrysost in Math. Hom. 39. Thou art not of the house of Priestes The Councel hath not graunted it thee the emperour hath not geuen it thee Harding You know this author is not S. Chrysostome and yet stil you name him so not so much as addiÌ„g M. Ievvel very ofte allegeth the writer of opus imperfeâ—ctum in Mattheum for Chrysostome knowing him not so to be Hom. 39. in opere imperfecto whereby we might vnderstand whom you meane wherein of purpose you doo vntruly Now to the matter This writter whether he was Maximinus Arianus as some auouche or who so euer he was doth not onely shew that the Pharisees might haue had suche thoughtes but also he sheweth that the signes and the true priesthod agreed al and mette vpon Christ who had his power not of men but of God And farther he addeth there in this wise Sacerdos qui est secundùm Deum omnem Sacerdotem timet offendere quia omnes ex Deo fieri arbitratur quamuis ex hominibus sit factus Euery Priest which is of God feareth to offend any Priest bicause he thinketh euery Priest to be made of God although he be made of men But you M. Iewel thinke no Prieste at al now to be made of God To be made I say For you wil graunt none other Priesthod then that Spiritual and internal Priesthod which is common to wemen and children as wel as to men As for external Priesthood you thinke none at al to be made and therfore you despise not only euery Priest made of men but also you despise the highest Priest of al to wit the Bisshop of Rome and al his predecessours being aboue thirtie Martyrs and mo Confessours and blessed Saintes that haue sitten in that See and haue exercised their power ouer the whole Church as it is wel knowen of S. Clement Eleutherius Victor Stephanus and others The Pharisees wordes may be truly applied to you M. Iewel For you wil haue no spiritual power to be in the Church but that which the temporal Counsel or Emperour Laie Princes made gouernours of Christes Churche in al thinges aÌ„d causes or some like secular Prince doth geue For these officers haue you made the supreme gouernours of Christes Church in al thinges and causes He that saith in al leaueth out nothing at al wherein the temporal Prince is not supreme Gouernour Therefore in your Church it is a good argument thou maist not doo the office of a Bishop preach absolue or Baptize bicause thou art not admitted thereto by the Ciuile Magistrate I wisse they of the Clergie in the Primitiue Churche would rather haue suffered a thowsand deathes then they would haue submitted the power which Christe gaue to them vnto the laie gouernours who although Christ alloweth them and commaundeth them to be obeyed yet were not made by him maisters of his Religion and of his Churche The power must come from the Apostles by lawful Succession which shal rule Christes Church and not from the Emperour or from the Kinge muche lesse from a woman or from a childe hauing otherwise neuer so good right to thinheretance of a Crowne Iewel Thus to maineteine them selues in credite for that they had Succession and continuance from Aaron and satâ— in Moyses chaire they kept Christs quite out of possession Harding They would haue done so in deede M. Iewel but he did put them out of possession bicause they would haue had there priesthod to continue longer then the prophecies had foretolde and Goddes Counsel had determined For the lawe and Prophetes brought al to Christe and there was shewed that a change should be made by him Bring vs forthe the like Prophecies that Luther Zuinglius Caluine or that lusty Gospeller Beza must put the Pope out of possession and forthwith by like Miracle bring you to passe that the whole Churche I meane al them that professe the Faith of the Romaine Church be dispersed and destroied as Christ dispersed and destroied the Iewes then we wil leaue the Pope yea Christ also and follow you and them as our second Messias But if as from Aaron til Christes first coÌ„ming the High Priestes ought to haue yelded their possessioÌ„ to no man that euer came so from S.
accusations when there are two witnesses It is his part only to admit accusations against Priestes who is the iudge of Priestes and euery Iudge is aboue him ouer whom he sitteth in iudgement Therefore a Bishop by Gods lawe is aboue a priest whose iudge he is allowed to be Epiphanius har 75. Which argument Epiphanius bringeth against Aerius the heretike who said as now M. Iewel saith that Priestes and Bishops were equal Hieron ad EuagriuÌ„ Againe S. Hierome who defended that the names of Bishops and of Priestes were confounded in the beginning and that the order of priesthod in them was one both which thinges are true yet he made an euident difference betwen the power of them graunting that a Priest could doo al that a Bishop can Hieronymus aduersus Luciferianos excepta ordinatione the ordering or geuing of holy orders excepted In that point then he beleued a Bishop to be aboue a Priest Now say I such a Bishop as by Gods lawe is aboue a Priest as who may only make Priestes and geue them power to consecrate and in Christes person to make and offer vnto God his body and bloud such a Bishop or such a Priest you haue not in al your Church vnlesse they be Apostates and Renegates who being once made priestes with vs haue now denied the faith wherein they were Christened and are runne out of the Church vnto your false Congregations and scattered troupes Iewel Neiter doth the Church of England this daye depende of them vvhom you so often cal Apostates as if our Church vvere no Churche vvithout them Harding S. Hierome said no Priest no Church Aduersus Lucifer Epistola ad Heliodorum and by a priest he meant him that maketh Christes body with hâ—â— holy mouth and offereth the same For these are his own wordes but such a priest is made only of a Bishop who is by Gods law aboue him And such Priestes haue you none besides Apostates Therfore your Church either is none or dependeth of Apostates and Renegates Iewel Pag. 131. They are no Apostates M. Harding that is rather your ovvne name and of good right belongeth vnto you Harding He is an Apostata who forsaketh the good profession VVho are Apostates which he once had But the profession either of Monkes or of the Catholikes whom you cal Papistes is good and godly For concerning Monkes they are the men who after the counsel of our Sauiour Matt. 19. professe to geue awaie their goodes to the pore or forsake the hope of goodes whiche may be had in the world and follow Christe gelding them selues or making them selues Eunuches for the kingdom of heauen This must needes be a good profession And as for the Catholikes they are the onely true members of Christes Church and none other can be Catholiques beside those whom you cal Papistes Bicause none others haue benne alwaies in al places and al times sith Christes Ascension And we haue ben so as our predecessours and pastours in the See of Rome with al other pastours agreeing therewith doo euidently shew euen to the eye Therfore who so haue forsaken their profession and rule as Renegate monkes and Friers haue or our Churâ—h as those priestes haue who being rightly ordered in the catholique Churche communicate now with you they are Apostates and Renegates And wheras you say that to be my name and of good right to belong vnto me there can be no iuste cause to cal me an Apostata except it be for departing from you But ye are al Apostates your selues For it can be named but of what Catholike felowship ye are departed whom ye leafte behind you al Italie Fraunce and Spaine c. who went out with you a peece of Germanie Suitzerland England and Scotland and after whom ye went some after Luther some after Zuinglius some after Caluin Therefore ye are al Apostates Now when I departed from you with whom notwithstanding I neuer remained wholly I departed from Apostates and came to that fellowship which neuer forsooke their former faith nor went out nor leaft any behind them who might complaine of their departure nor had any peculiar Captaines but onely the Apostles and their Successours that folowed them lineally from age to age Therefore the name of Apostata belongeth not to me but to you and to your felowes If the Reader say that we doo but sclaunder one the other let him consider the reason and not the wordes An Apostata is one The Protestantes be Apostates who faileth and depareth from some certaine lawful head We departe from none but kepe God Christ and his Ministerial headdes Bishops Priestes Kinges and Magistrates But the Protestantes haue denied al the Bishops aliue in the whole earth who liued before and in Luthers time They haue and doo rebel in al countries for the pretence of Religion And so they forsake both the obedience of spiritual and temporal gouernours therefore they are by al meanes Apostates Iewel Pag. 131. They are for a great part learned and graue and godly men and are much ashamed to see your solies Harding There is no learning against faith What learning cal you it when a man learneth to denie this to be Christes body which he said to be his body Or to holde Matt. 26. that the Church is sometimes hid Matt. 5. which Christ said to be a Citie built vpon a hil that can not be hid What grauitie is this to be moued and caried out of the Church and to be tossed hither and thither with euery puffe of new doctrine Nowe to be a Hussite then a Lutheran now a Brentian afterward a Zuinglian and last of al a Caluinist Yea what grauitie is it to defende that al these sectes may be saued seing they teâ—â—â— contradictorie doctrine and wil come to no agreement Concerning our folies which you say they see they are folies to worldlynges and to men wise in their owne eyes as a man to shut vp him selfe in a Cloister to watch to fast to praye to liue chaste to bewaile his sinnes to geue awaye al his goods for Gods sake to honour Gods frendes with a due reuerence and worship to beleue Christ rather then our eyes and to trust the wit of our Predecessours rather then our owne These are in deede our folies in 〈…〉 we glorie through Gods grace leauing the pride oâ—â—oâ—… new traÌ„slations of the Scriptures your Sectes and wordly wisedom the breaking of vowes the liuing in incest and open filthinesse with impudent maintenance therof to your great learning grauitie holinesse and wisedom Iewel Pag. 131. NotvvithstaÌ„ding if there vvere not one neither of them nor of vs leaft aliue yet vvould not therfore the vvhole Church of EnglaÌ„d flee to Louain Harding Who euer said that the whole Church of England must flee or was fled to Louaine You kepe some parte of it fast inough from fleeing to Louaine or any whither els if the Tower the Fleete the Marshalsea the
Leo was an Arian Forsooth there is an old motheatē booke wherein Saintes liues are said to be conteined Sometimes it is called Legenda Aurea sometimes Speculū Sanctorū sometimes Legenda Lombardica or Historia Lombardica Gesnerus of Zurich saith one Iacobus de Voragine a Black Frier was the author of it It shal not greatly skil who was the author of it Certaine it is that among some true Stories there be many vaine Fables written Among which this is one that M. Iewel here allegeth in great sadnesse Neither is this reported of Pope Leo that he was an Arian in a special Legende written of Leo but in a Legende of S. Hilarie of Poitiers in Fraunce whose holy reliques the Huguenotes in their late vproares in Fraunce villanously abused burned to Ashes and threw awaie as likewise the boanes and Reliques of S. Martine Bishop of Toures and of that auncient and glorious Martyr S. Ireneus Bisshop of Lions That it may the better be knowen what a worthy Doctor the writer of this Legende was Historia Lombardica De sancto Hilario Legendae 17. Hilarius dicitur ab Altus ares let the beginning of the same Legende be taken as it were for a taste where ful Clerckely discussing the Etymologie and first original of S. Hilaries name thus he saith Dicitur Hilarius quasi Alarius ab Altus Ares virtus quia fuit alius in scientia virtuosus in vita Vel Hilarius dicitur ab ile quod est quasi primordialis materia quae obscura fuit Et ipse in dictis suis magnam habet obscuritatem profunditatem Of such geare the Reader may finde great stoare there when so euer he is disposed to lawgh Now let vs heare the Legende or rather the Fable by which it appeareth to M. Iewel that Pope Leo was an Arian Thus it is tolde word by word Eo tempore Leo Papa haereticorum perfidia deprauatus c. At that time Pope Leo corrupted with the false beleefe of Heretikes assembled a Councel of al the bishops They being called together Hilarius came in amōgest them not sent for Which thing when the Pope Leo hearde of he commaunded that no mā should rise vp vnto him nor geue him place When he was come in the Pope said vnto him Arte thou Hilarius the Frenche man I am not a Frenche man quod he but one of Fraunce that is to say I am not borne in Fraunce I am a Bishop of Fraunce Then said the Pope If thou be Hilarie of Fraunce I am the Bishop of the Romaine See and Iudge Then said Hilarius Although thou be Leo that is to say Lion yet thou arte not the Lion of the tribe of Iuda And though thou sitte as iudge yet thou sittest not in the Seate of Maiestie At that the Pope Leo arose with disdaine saying Abide a while til I come againe and paie thee that thou deseruest To whom Hilarius answered If thou come not againe who shal make answer vnto me in thy steede I wil come againe by and by quod he and wil bring downe thy pride When the Pope was gonne to do the secrete busines of nature he died of a dysenterie and auoiding foorth at the Pryuey al his entrailes he ended his life miserably In the meane ceason Hilarie seeing that none woulde rise vp vnto him tooke pacience and setting him selfe downe on the grownde saied Domini est terra Our Lordes is the earth And therewith the earth by the wil of God whereon he sate lifted it selfe vp and stoode vp equal with the seates of the other Bishops Hereupon when tidinges came that the Pope was dead miserably Hilarie arose and confirmed al the Bishoppes in the Catholique Faith and so sent them home This is the wise Legende by which it appeareth to M. Iewel that Pope Leo was an Arian Heretique To let passe the other folies of this Fable what a vanitie is it to make Leo the Pope and S. Hilarie the Bisshop of Poitiers thus to braule together at an assemblie of Bishoppes whereas it is most certaine that S. Hilarie died at least one hundred yeres before Leo was borne M. Iewel should not so falsly haue conceeled what followeth immediatly in the same Legende whereby this tale is discredited For thus saith the authour him selfe Hoc autem miraculum de morte Leonis Papae dubitationem habet tum quia historia Ecclesiastica vel Tripartita nihil de hoc loquitur tum quia aliquem Papam talis nominis tunc fuisse Chronica non testatur tum quia Hieronymus dicit quòd Sancta Romana Ecclesia semper immaculata permansit in futuro manebit sine Haereticorum in sultatione But of this miracle of Leos death it is doubted partly bicause neither the Ecclesiastical nor the Tripartite storie speaketh of it partly bicause the Chronicle witnesseth not that there was any Pope then of that name S. Hieromes testimonie for the Churche of Rome out of his ovvne Doctor also bicause S. Hierome saith that the holy Romaine Churche hath euer continued vnspotted and so shal continue for tyme to come that Heretiques shal haue no cause to insult at here Marke M. Iewel if your Legende be ought worth with how cleare testimonie of S. Hierome your imputing of Heresie vnto the See of Rome is confuted After this by waie of gheasse the Authour saith to make a bad defence of the fables vanitie wherein he sheweth also his owne folie and vanitie that it might be sayd that is to witte if a man would lye that at that time there was some Pope so called not canonically chosen but set in by tyrannical intrusion Whereas he feared this would not serue he addeth an other gheasse Vel fortè Liberius c. Or els perhappes saith he Pope Liberius who fauoured Constantius the Heretique Emperour was after an other name called Leo. Whiche al are very poore and peeuish shiftes to sooth the vaine fable of this Legende Suche Donghilles and broken haies M. Iewel is faine to rake and skrape to finde some Ragges wherewith to couer the fowle nakednes of his wretched cause Yet the Storie set out in the name of Amphilochius touching S. Basiles miracles is muche more probable and maie beare the name of the text where this Legende shal not be thought worthy the name of the Glose Iewel 131. Pope Coelestinus vvas a Nestorian heretike Harding coelestinus Pope falsly charged vvith the heresie of Nestorius Photius in epist ad Michaelē Bulgariae principē Prosper in Chronic. Who euer heard such an impudent man It was Coelestinus who condemned Nestorius and al his heresies It was Coelestinus in whose place Cyrillus the Archebisshop of Alexandria sate president in the third General Councel at Ephesus where Nestorius was accursed and condemned Of this Coelestinus the learned Bishop Prosper who then liued writeth Nestorianae impietati praecipua Alexandrini Episcopi industria Papae Coelestini repugnat authoritas The special diligence of the Bisshop of Alexandria
matter lieth open to many accusations And therefore he would a Bishop to geue no occasion of euil to those that be vnder him * Thus Chrysostome Where with S. Paule first he putteth to silence the Cerdonistes Marcionistes Seuerians Tatians Manichees and al other Heretikes that condemned marriage and said it was an impure thing Secondly he alloweth matrimonie fo farre that he acknowledgeth a maried man may ascend to a Bishops seate Thirdly * Leaft out by M. Iev Bigâ—mie lauful rather then coÌ„mendable leafte out by M. Iev The Bigamie of the gospellers condeÌ„ned by Chrysostom and Paule-StroÌ„pets he putteth Bigamie that it to witte marying an other after the first or a widowe to be lawful rather then commendable * Nowe as wee doo not condemne marriage neither denie but that married menne in the Primitiue Churche and before the Ghospel was so generally receiued as it was at length were and might be called to the dignitie of Bishoprike when scarcetie and lacke of single menne worthy of that rome was founde * so we see the impure Bigamie of our holy gospellers condemned both by S. Chrysostom and S. Paule of whom many being Priestes and as they saye Bishops at lest presuming to occupie that holy seate for custodie of their chastitie after their former olde yokefellowes decease solace them selues with newe strompettes By a better name I would cal them if I wist I should not offend For what woman soeuer coupleth her selfe in such damnable yoking how can she appeare either to be honest or to haue care of her soule health As for the simple that be deceiued by the importunitie and craft of those lurdens as they are not to be borne withal so yet I thinke them to be pitied But if this Defender presse vs with Chrysostome we answer that though Chrysostom graunte that a married man may ascende to the holy seate yet he sayeth not that a man may descend from that holy seate to the Bride bedde For we denie vtterly After holy orders receiued mariage neuer coÌ„pted lauful amoÌ„g catholikes that any man after that he hath receiued holy orders maie marye Neither can it be shewed that the mariage of suche was euer accompted lawful in the catholike Church In deed we know that in Germanie and in EnglaÌ„d and certain other prouinces at dissolute times when the discipline of the Church was shaken of Priestes haue ben maried as we reade of the time in whiche Anselmus was Bishop of Cantorbury Priestes maryed in EnglaÌ„d in the time of Anselmus But that disorder was alwayes by due correction of bishops punished and redressed So that what soeuer Bale Poinet or any other of that filthy railing rable bring out of Huldrike of Auspurg Huntingdonensis Capgraue Chronica Chronicarum or such other obscure and barbarous stories for witnes of priestes marriages seing the same were by good rulers of the Churche at al times controlled and resisted as vnlauful and wicked it is of no force nor auctoritie How why and when maried men were admitted to be priestes and wher the profession of chastitie and absteining from companie of their wiues was required of them and many other poinctes touching the vnlawful mariages of priestes who so euer is desirous to be amply instructed the same I referre to a large treatise written hereof by a lerned man in our owne tonge I thinke not good here to recite the thinges that be so wel treated already Iewel Pag. 164. Here I graunte M. Harding is like to finde some good aduauntage as hauing vndoubtedly a great Number of the holy Fathers of his side c. That Priestes and Votaries maie not marrie The first Chapter Harding The Fathers be on our side by M. Iewels ovvne confessioÌ„ THEN vndoubtedly you haue not the holy Scriptures on your side For the holy Fathers haue neuer in great number determined or weighed against the Scriptures For the same Christ that gaue vs the holy Scriptures gaue vs also Pastours and Doctours as S. Paule teacheth to make perfite the Saintes that is the Christians by their ministerial working and to build vp the body of Christe whiche is his Churche Seing then M. Iewel confesseth that for this point we haue a great number of the Fathers on our side let him make his Moustre of Glosers Summistes al the Canonistes Schoolemen and of his other late petie Doctours whom when they serue vs he calleth the Blacke Garde neuer so great we wil content our selues with the great number of Ancient Fathers And if the Fathers be on our side what remaineth but that the Reader make his choise to whiche side to incline to the olde Fathers of the Auncient Churche of whose holinesse wee are wel assured or to these yong Fathers of this new Churche whose Children do geue vs better witnesse that they be fathers then doth their life that they be holy Wel how great number of holy Fathers so euer we haue on our side certaine it is that M. Iewel wil not yeelde Let it then be considered how he defendeth this point and what pith there is in al that number of the Doctours sayinges whiche he would seme to allege for his purpose As concerning the wordes of my confutation of the Apologie touching this point of the marriage of Priestes and Votaries bicause I knew these married Apostates doo charge vs as hauing an euil iudgement of Matrimonie directly answering the wordes of the Apologie first I commende Matrimonie Heb. 13. To marrie vnlauful in tvvo cases and approue the saying of S. Paule vttered in the Epistle to the Hebrewes in praise of it Neuerthelesse I say that to marrie it is vnlawful in two cases The one is if any person haue vowed continencie the other if any man haue taken holy Orders The first I proue by Scripture and the Fathers the second by the Ordinance of the Churche and also by testimonie of the Fathers Then I answer to the place alleged out of S. Chrysostom who saith that a married man may be promoted vnto the dignitie of a Bishop In discoursing whereupon I shew that the Bigamie of the married Apostates of our time is by sentence of S. Chrysostome vtterly condemned After this graunting that in the olde Church married men vpon good causes were made Bishops I denie that Bishoppes were euer made married men after they were Bishops The foure thinges that in this matter M. Ievvel hath to defende These then be the thinges that here M. Iewel hath to defende First that is is lawful to marrie after the Vowe of Chastitie Secondly that it is lawful after the taking of holy Orders Thirdly that Bigamie or second marriage is lawful in Priestes Monckes Friers and Nonnes Fourthly that in olde time Bishoppes were married after they had once ben consecrate Bishops These foure if he doo not defende he perfourmeth nothing touching this point but sheweth him selfe to al menne ouercomme though his Doctours allegations besides the purpose be neuer so many VVhat
mariages contracted in the case of a Simple Vowe and not of a Solemne Vowe Howsoeuer a man or a woman make a Vowe to liue the single life chaste and continent and do not solemnize the same either by entring into some Religion or by taking holy Orders if not withstanding the Vow they presume to marrie the marriage holdeth But if they marrie after they haue solemnized their Vowe by entring into Religion or by taking holy Orders the marriage is none at al M. Dorman defended against M. Ievvel Defence pag. 169. Dorman in his first booke fo 16. b. and therefore is to be dissolued bicause they haue made deliuerie of them selues before the Church into the handes of their Superiours and be not in state now to dispose of their personnes or bodies otherwise as being deliuered vp to custodie of perpetual chastitie Hereof it appeareth how litle cause you had M. Iewel to reproue M. Dorman for calling the mainteiners of marriage in this case the Deuils ministers In this case I say for he speaketh expressely of Priestes And therefore you may consider how wel it became you to say that by the iudgdment of our late Louanian Clergie S. Augustine is become the minister of the Deuil for these be the termes of your seemely eloquence Here therefore I returne vpon you M. Iewel those wordes which without cause you imagine S. Augustine to say vnto me Ye speake fondly and vnaduisedly and vnderstand not what ye speake Here to returne to M. Iewels order among other thinges M. Ievvel chargeth the holy Fathers vvith ouersight for zele and heat for answere vnto certaine places of the Fathers calling such kinde of marriage worse then Aduoutrie Inceste and Sacrilege he saith that such wordes haue proceded more of zele and heate of minde then of profound consideration and iudgement of the cause And so in effecte he reiecteth the holy and auncient Fathers as men vnworthy of credite But ô Lorde what Fathers Verely the chiefe and best learned S. Ambrose S. Hierome S. Basil S. Chrysostome S. Augustine Ah good Sir lacked these learned and holy Fathers consideration and iudgement and do you acknowledge it in your selfe and your companions O menne of deepe consideration and great iudgement that coulde so easily prouide them selues of wemen to geue the bridle vnto luste Among al other thinges that he bringeth in defence of his Companions vnlawful marriage this is the fardest from reason and hath least colour of learning that by his doctrine the vow of Chastitie is to be broken and that al Monckes Friers Priestes and Nonnes may lawfully marrie bicause il promises filthy Vowes and wicked Othes ought not to be kept For proufe that il Vowes are to be broken he allegeth Isidorus out of Gratian saying 22. quaest 4. In malis In malis promissis rescinde fidem in turpi vot◠muta decretum Quod incautè vouisti ne facias impia est promissio quae scelere impletur In an il promise breake thy faith In a filthy Vow change thy purpose What thou hast vnwarely vowed doo it not It is a wicked promise that is fulfilled with mischeefe Marc. 6. Act. 23. 22. quaest 4. Inter caetera Againe he saith It is not sufficient to say I haue vowed Herode vowed Iohn Baptistes head The Iewes vowed S. Paules death Hubaldus made a vowe that he would neuer helpe his owne mother or brethren were there neede neuer so great He allegeth also the 8. Councel of Toledo Where it was declared and decreed that wicked vowes ought not to be made and if they were made that in any wise they should not be perfourmed Where for example the vowe of Herode is mencioned Iudic. 11. and that of Iephte who through his vow thought him selfe bounde to sacrifice his daughter But what reliefe bringeth al this vnto his cause onlesse he be hable to proue that Chastitie is an il and a wicked thing as the murdering of S. Iohn Baptist and of S. Paul and as the sacrificing of Iephtes daughter was But how excellēt a thing chastitie is and how acceptable it is vnto God and of how much more merite it is then matrimonie both Christ him selfe in the Gospel and S. Paule in his Epistle to the Corinthians doo partly teache vs Mat. 19. 1. Cor. 7. and the holy Fathers in māner al haue most largely declared specially S. Basil S. Chrysostome S. Ambrose S. Augustine who haue written special Treaties of Virginitie Iouinians heresie and S. Hierom and S. Augustine disputing moste learnedly against Iouinian that helde opinion Marriage and Virginitie to be of equal merite to whose Heresie our fleshly Gospellers beare special fauour and maintenance As for the eight Councel of Toledo I maruel how he durst be so bolde Concil To letan 8. Cap. 7. in Epitom Married Priestes of olde times called Apostates as to allege it which maketh so litle for him touching the breache of a Godly Vowe and so much against him touching the marriage of them that haue taken holy Orders For the wordes of the Councel be these Si verò ad coniugia morésque seculi redire attentauerint omni Ecclesiastica dignitate priuentur Apostatae habeantur in monasterio donec vixerint sub poenitentia retrudantur In case they geue the attempte to returne vnto marriages and vnto the manners of the worlde let them be depriued of al Ecclesiastical dignitie and reputed for Apostates And let them be shut vp in a Monasterie to doo penaunce so long as they liue By this M. Iewel may see by what menne his married Brethren were called Apostates and by how many hundred yeres before he and I were borne I trust he wil beare the more with me if I happen to cal them by that their auncient name some times Concerning that you pretende to allege out of one Alphonsus de Castro Philippica 19. whom you say to be one of M. Hardinges greatest Doctours in good sooth he is no whit a greater Doctour of mine Alphonsus de Castro alleged by M. Ievvel in stede of Alphonsus Viruesius Episcopus Canariē then is the man in the Moone For in deede there is none of that name that euer wrote Philippicas It is one Alphonsus Viruesius M. Iewel a learned man of this present age Bishop of Canaria who writing against Philip Melanchthon called his Orations or Treaties Philippicas after the imitation of Demosthenes who so named those most eloquent Orations that he made against King Philip of Macedonia the great Alexanders Father A like errour to that you reproue me of so often and so bitterly by ouersight naming Iosue for the Prophete Osee Thus you see your selfe not cleare of the faulte you charge me so muche withal Neither is this your only ouersight of that sorte Howbeit that I alleged out of Osee vnder the name of Iosue maketh clearly with me and this you allege out of Bishop Viruesius vnder the name of the Obseruant Frier Alphonsus de
Deacons Marriage was not made firste allowable after that he was promoted to the Order of Deaconship but before he receiued that holy Order For if he made no protestation that he would marrie and asked no licence thereto but helde his peace by the wordes that follow in the same Canon it is cleare that he bound himselfe to perpetual continencie and might neuer marrie afterwarde as he that had by taking that Order professed and promised chastitie Those wordes are these which you should haue rehersed had you dealt truly and vprightly Quicunque Diaconi tacuerunt c. Concil Ancyran cap. 10. What Deacons so euer helde their peace when they tooke Orders and receiued the laying on of the Bisshoppes hande so hauing made their profession of continencie if afterwarde they come to marrie they shal be bound to ceasse from the ministerie The case of our Apostates is not like vnto this case He that made his Protestation that he would marrie and that for necessitie and had licence of the Bishop when he married in deede was suffered to remaine in the Ministerie as they that were admitted vnto holy Orders with wedlocke For he seemed already in harte and affecte a married man And such that Prouincial Councel did beare withal when for lacke of other worthy menne the more parte yet remaining in infidelitie the Bishops were compelled to admitte to the Ministerie of the Churche married menne Your brethren can not claime by this example For they neuer made any suche protestation when they were ordered neither demaunded they euer any such licence of their Bishops but eche as they felt them selues moued with the spirite of luste vpon warrāt of your Gospel and their owne spirite went lustily to their yoke felowes and vnder pretence of Marriage concluded a lusty bargaine If ye haue no better stuffe then this for the marriage of the Apostates your companions wel you may receiue your fee of them verely it is not yet sufficiently defended Iewel So saith Pope Steuin Dist 31. Aliter Graecorum Sacerdotes Diaconi aut Subdiaconi Matrimonio copulantur The Greeke Priestes Deacons or Subdeacons are coupled in Matrimonie Glos dist 31. Aliter Vpon vvhich vvordes the Glose noteth thus Multi ex hac litera dixerunt quòd Orientales possunt contrahere in Sacris Ordinibus Many haue said vpon occasion of this texte that the Priestes of the East Church contrary to that M. Harding so certainly here assureth vs may marrie being vvithin holy Orders Harding Diuersitie betvven the East and vvest Churche touching libertie of Clerks mariages Had you rehersed the whole Decree as you found it you had marred your cause and plaid a simple Proctour Your married brethren therefore do commend your police I doubt not who see their marriage condemned by that Decree of Pope Steuen ▪ The whole is this Aliter se Orientalium traditio haebet Ecclesiarum aliter huius Sancta Romanae Ecclesiae Nā earum Sacerdotes Diacons aut Subdiaceni Matrimonio copulātur Istius autem Ecclesiae vel Occidentalium nullus Sacerdotum à Subdiacon◠vsque ad Episcopum licentiam habet coniugium sortiendi The Tradition of the East Churches is otherwise then is the tradition of this holy Romaine Church For their Priestes Deacons or Subdeacons are coupled in matrimonie ▪ but there is neuer a Priest of this Church or of the weast partes that from a Subdeacon to a Bishop hath licence to marrie By this Decree it is euidēt that so many as from a Subdeacon to a Bishop do marrie in these weast partes doo contrary to the Tradition and order of the Church And whereas you allege the Glose for you you make al that be hable to reade the place witnesses of your impudēcie For it maketh altogether against you First whereas the Decree hath Matrimonio copulantur asmuche to say the Priestes Deacons or Subdeacons of the East Church are coupled in Matrimonie the Glose expoundeth it thus and that truly id est copulato viūtur that is to say they vse Matrimonie wherein they were coupled before they tooke orders As for the other wordes of the Glose Multi ex hac litera dixerūt c. Many vpon occasion of this text haue said that they of the East Chucrh may marrie within holy Orders it is not the minde of the Glose but a some say as I may terme it and a fansie of certaine whom the author of the Glose there confuteth with these woordes immediatly folowing which by your cōmon sleight of falsifying you nipte away from the end of the sentēce Sed eis obstat infrà Distinctio proxima Si quis eorū c. But the nexte distinction that foloweth whose beginning is Si quis eorū is contrary to their opinion Distin 32. Si quis eorum That nexte Distinction taken out of the sixth Councel hath thus Si quis eorū qui ad Clerū accedūt voluerit nuptiali iure mulieri copulari hoc ante ordinationē Subdiaconatus faciat If any of them that come vnto the Clergie be willing to couple with a woman in right of Marriage let him do it before he be made Subdeacon Vpon that place the Glose saith thus whereunto it made relation in the former Distinction Istud caput euidēter est cōtra illos qui dicūt quòd Graci possunt cōtrahere in sacris ordinibus This Chapter is euidētly against them which say that the Greekes may marrie being within holy Orders Lo M. Iewel what haue you gained by the Glose he that examineth your bookes specially that of your late pretensed Defence wil say with me there was neuer such a false Gloser as you are by abusing al other writers that you allege but specially the poore Glose vpon Gratian. Iewel Of the Priestes of the vvest Churche Cardinal Caietane saith Papa potest dispensare cum Sacerdote Occidentalis Ecclesiae Catharinus contra errores Caietani errore 103. vt vxorem ducat nulla existēte causa publicae vtilitatis The Pope may dispense vvith a Priest of the vvest Churche to marrie a vvife although there be no manner cause of common profite Harding It goeth harde with you M. Iewel when you haue no better testimonies for the Marriage of Priestes then the Obiections which the Glose maketh to him selfe and the errour of Caietaine at least whiche Catharinus noteth for an errour But to whom wil you sticke To Catharinus or to Caietanus If to Catharinus then Caietane helpeth your cause nothing at al. Caietan in Opusc lib. 5. tractatu 27. For of Catharinus it is condemned for an errour If you sticke to Caietane then you disannul Catharinus who is your author For els you must tel vs where Caietane saith so and vpon what groundes he saith so vvhether the Pope may dispense vvith a Priest or religious person to marrie in a case Touching the Question whether the Pope may in a case dispense with a Priest of the West Churche or a religious man
with any suche care how said the Apostle before vnius vxoris virum that a Bishop should be the husband of one wife Some vnderstand such a one to be signified by these wordes that shal be made a Bishop after his wiues death Albeit he that hath a wife may be as one not hauing And this much he graunted them very wel in consideration of the time 1. Cor. 7. and nature of the thing as the case then stoode And a man may take that thing honestly and lawfully if he wil. For as richesse doo hardly bring a man into the kingdom of Heauen yet often times many riche men haue there entred in so also doth marriage Thus farre goeth the greke in S. Chrysostom and no further touching this matter For immediatly follow not the wordes that M. Iewel buildeth his proufe vpon but other wordes coÌ„cerning an other thing as euery learned man may see in the â—…nted Greeke booke in the 20. leafe the seconde pag. tâ—â— 20. line You might haue sene this in the Greeke M. Iewel or your Greeke Frende for you aswel as you saw that other place of S. Chrysostome by me truly alleged and traÌ„slated where he expoundeth these wordes of S. Paul Tit. 1. ho. 2 The husbande of one wife Which place you wring and wrâ—st very violently to serue your purpose and yet it wil not be M. Ievv in his defence pa. 175. vseth false traÌ„slation and the learned may easily perceiue your false iuggling in it There you wil nedes haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to signifie the wife that is gonne from her husband by diuorce and therefore you turne it Vxori quae decessit à se whereas you should haue followed the allowed translation that is in vse which hath Defunctae vxori the wife deceassed or departed this life So I haue turned the place in my Confutation according to the Greeke and as the common Latine translation hath Consider therefore how impudently you reproue me without cause First in the margent of your booke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Pag. 164. ouer against this testimonie of S. Chrysostom truly translated by me out of the Greeke worde for worde For whereas be â—â—epeth no beneuolâ—nce towarde his wife deceased how can he be a good gouernour You haue set this odious note of reproufe directing it by your sterre vnto the worde deceassed * Vntruthe For M. Harding fowly mistaketh S. Chrysostomes meaning And there again immediatly * Vntruth standing in false exposition Not being content with this in your teâ—te page 174. lin 3. you say further Those wordes M. Harding in his translation hath purposely falsified I haue not purposely falsified them M. Iewel for they be not myâ—â— but they be the wordâ—â— of the common trâ—â—slation and the same iâ— according to the Greeke For thâ— verbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth not to departe away by diuorce as you haue violently turned it but simply to departe or goe awaye and sometimes as in this very place to departe out of this life You might haue learned so much of the common Greeke Lexicon VVhat secoÌ„d marriage not forbiddeÌ„ by the lavves Now that S. Chrysostome is so to be vnderstanded S. Chrysostome him selfe clearely sheweth in wordes of the same sentence there For whereas he speaketh of that second marriage which he confesseth not to be forbidden by the lawes what other second marriage meaneth he but that when as a man marrieth againe after the deceasse of his first wife For I trow you wil not say that the lawes after Christes comming among Christian men permitted a man to marrie againe his wife being aliue and so to haue two wiues at once specially in the case which your translation importeth that is when the wife is not put away for Aduoutrie of her parte but departeth from the husband which she may not do but for aduoutrie of his parte It is not likely S. Paule would debarre a man from comming vnto the dignitie of a Bishop that had two wiues at once For such a one excepte he repented and had put awaye from him one of them was not admitted to be made a Christian man What trow ye that he required not a farrâ— moâ—â— pâ—rfection in him that was to be made a Bishop Thus you see good reason why Ambrosâ—â—s-Câ—â—ildâ—leâ—sis that learned man traÌ„slated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for that is S. Chrysostoms word and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as you haue noted in your bookes margent by this worde Defunctae and why I turned it the wife disceassed You may now of your courtesie take backe againe your bitter reproches of fowle mistaking of false exposition of purposed falsifying to your selfe For these special qualities be proued to be yours they be not myne For two other testimonies in proufe of Priestes Marriage M. Iewel craueth helpe at Erasmus and Cornelius Agrippa Thus he saith Iewel Erasmus saith The Priestes of the Greeke Church this daie not vvithstanding their Orders marrie vviues The like vvriteth Cornelius Agrippa against the Iouanians Harding Erasmus and Cornelius Agrippa Erasmus and Cornel Agrippa be menne of smal credite God wote in this cause which in their time they fâ—uoâ—red as much as you do now It is coÌ„monly reported you know for a vaine shifte of a theefe to say Aske my fellow whether I be a theefe or no. Herein we are moued with the authoritie of these two smatterers of your Gospel in their daies but newly brocâ—ed no more then if we heard Frier Luther Monke Hâ—pâ—r Peter Martyr the regulare Chanon of S. Augustines order and suche other married Apostates to speake a good worde in fauour of their vnlawful yokinges How be it the truth is both Erasmus and Cornelius Agrippa belye the Greeke Churche herein as the Doctours of the Sorboâ—e in Paris haue in their Censures againste Erasmus truely declared For by the lawe it was neuer nor yet is to this day lawful in the Greeke Churche for Priestes to marrie wiues after that they haue taken the holy Order of Priesthoodâ— Ieâ—â—l Likevvise Cardinal Caietâ—nâ— saith Nec ratione nec authoritatâ— probari potest Caietan in Quod libet quod absolute loquendo Sacerdos peccet coÌ„traheÌ„do matrimonius â–ª It can not be proued neither by reason nor by aâ—thâ—ritie speaking absolutely that a Priest offendeth God 〈◊〉 marrying a vvife Harding Cardinal Caietane hath his errours for which he hath ben reproued and confuted We are not bound to mainteine what so euer he saith How be it this saying of his seemeth to haue no great errour VVhere of is it that the Marriage of Priestes in the vvest Church is vnlavvful Statute of the Churche and Vovvannexed so it be vnderstanded as he meant There be two thinges that make the marriage of Priestes in the most Church vnlawful the Sâ—… of the Church and the Vow annexed The Statute and coÌ„stitution of the Church bindeth clerkes receiuing holy Orders neuer to marrie As touching
his vvord they vvould euermore haue vs stand in doubt but of the Pope and his vvord they say in any vvise vve maie not doubt Harding Our doubte is not whether Gods word ought to be beleeued no man doubteth thereof But onely what is the meaning thereof And then besides to vnderstand it the better we ioine vniuersal tradition with it and in al further doubtes we say the Pope or the General Councel is the highest and laste iudge in earth to declare vnto vs the meaning of Gods worde Otherwise we should neuer haue an end of Controuersies as we see by experience betwen the Lutherans and Zuinglians Ievvel Pag. 200. 201. Hovv knovv you saith M. Harding that the scriptures be the scriptures c. The Church of God had the spirit of vvisedom vvhereby to discerne the true scriptures from the false So saith S. a In prooemi in Luc. Ambrose S. b cōt Fau lib. 22. Augustin and c 80. li. 6. ca. 2. Eusebius Yet vvil it not folovv that the Church is aboue the scriptures Harding If the Church of God haue the spirite of wisedome to discerne the true scriptures from the false shal it not also haue the same wisedom of God to expound the holy Scriptures and also to determine any question arising thereon Neither doo we say that the Church is aboue the Scriptures in authoritie but that it is to vs better knowen and as a more liuely so a more plaine teacher then the Scriptures be For if we aske the Scriptures any question Clemēs Alexand. li. strō 1 be it neuer so hard as Clemens Alexandrinus hath wel noted They wil answer vs no more then it is written But if any man aske the Church neuer so manie questions if the knowledge be behooful for mannes soule health it wil euer make him to eche question an answer and so wil dimisse him with a ful satisfaction touching al his doubtes 1. Tim. 3. For this cause the Church is called the piller of truth And as you confesse that the Church hath shewed vs which be the true Scriptures so must you likewise graunte that the Church hath the spirite of God to shew vs the truth in al behooful cases yea euen in those which be not expressely written For where is it written expressely that the church of God should haue the spirit of God for this ende to shew vs the true Scriptures to approue the true Scriptures and to condemne the false forgeries Luc. 10. Mat. 18. Christe said generally of al matters He that heareth you heareth me Item he that heareth not the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen and a Publican Of the Sacramentes of the Churche The thirde Chapter Iewel Defence Pag. 103. 104. M. Harding saith there be seuen Sacramentes vvhich as he saith do not only signifie a holy thing but also doo make holy those to vvhom they be adhibited But hovv can Matrimonie sanctifie a man and make him holy Or by vvhat institution of Christ conteineth it grace in it selfe and povver to sanctifie Harding Ephes 5. S. Paule answereth you thus Ye husbandes loue your wiues as Christ hath loued his Church And then he proueth the wife to be the flesh of the husband as also the Church is the body of Christe And so both waies the Prophecie of Adam is verefied Gen. 2. that two shal be in one flesh Sacramentum hoc magnum est in Christe Ecclesia Sacramēt Mysterie This is a great Sacrament or a great Misterie in Christe and the Churche For we stand not now vpon the worde but vpon the thing What is that great Mysterie First Matrimonie is alwaies a coniunction of two in one both by natural consent of myndes and also if it be consummate by corporal coniunction Now by Christes institution that coniunction is also made inseparable Matt. 19. when he said That which God hath ioined together let not man separate or put a sunder Nowe then this coniunction is made to be inseparable betwen faithful persons it is directed by Christ and instituted purposely to signifie his inseparable coniunction with the Church And whiles it is instituted of Christe to signifie that thing it is made a Sacrament or Mysterie whereunto Christe geueth grace and holinesse for that purpose For when any thing or action is appointed by Christ to signifie a holy thing in Religion that action is thereby made a Sacrament and doth sanctifie the worthy receiuers of it We see that Circumcision might be made and was vsed among some Infidels and to them it was no Sacrament Gen. 17. But when the faithful were commaunded to circumcide them selues to signifie the Circumcision of the harte which Christe should make in them that beleeued by his spirit and grace then Circumcision was made a Sacrament and did sanctifie the worthy receiuer Euen so it is in Matrimonie as S. Augustine saith August lib. 1. de Nupt. Concupis cap. 10. Ephes 5. Quoddam Sacramentum nuptiarum commendatur fidelibus coniugatis Vnde dicit Apostolus viri diligite vxores vestras sicut Christus dilexit Ecclesiam A certaine Sacrament of Marriage is commended vnto the faithful married personnes Whereupon the Apostle saith ye men loue your wiues euen as Christe loued his Churche Huius proculdubio Sacramenti res est vt mas foemina connubio copulati quà m diu viuunt inseparabiliter perseuerent Nec liceat excepta causa fornicationis à coniuge coniugem dirimi hoc enim custoditur in Christo Ecclesia vt viuens cum viuente in aeternum nullo diuortio separetur The thing doubtlesse of this Sacrament is The thing of the Sacrament of Matrimonie that the man and woman ioyned together in Marriage as long as they liue continew together vndisseuered and that it be not lauful for the one to be separated from the other but for fornication For this thing is kept in Christ and the Church that he lyuing with the liuing for euer by no diuorce be separated Here we learne not only that the name but also that the thing of a Sacrament is in the Marriage of Christians which thing doth sanctifie those persons that come worthily to Marriage For as Marriage was from the beginning ordeined to begete Children so by Christ it is ordeined to a higher signification verely not to be separated whiles the parties married together doo liue and thereby to signifie Christes inseparable vniō with his Church The chief signification of Matrimonie And as that vnion of Christ with vs is an inseparable sanctification to faithful men so is the signe thereof a special sanctification to them who married in our Lorde It is knowen that as S. Augustine assigneth there are tria bona matrimonij August li. de Nuptijs Concupisc fides proles Sacramentum Three good thinges are in Mariage the faith or fidelitie of wedlocke which the man and wife must kepe rendring duetie the
addeth priuilegijs omnibus custodit is quae reuerend issimis Clericis sacrae praestant cōstitutiones al Priuileges kepte whiche the Emperours lawes doo graunt vnto the reuerend Clerkes And saith farther Si verò Ecclesiasticum sit delictum egens castigatione ecclesiastica mulcta Deo amabilis Episcopus hoc discernat nihil communicantibus clarissimis prouinciae Iudicibus Neque enim volumus talia negotia omnino scire ciuiles iudices quum oporteat talia ecclesiasticè examinari emendari animas delinquentium per Ecclesiasticam mulctam secundùm sacras diuinas regulas quas etiam sequi nostra non dedignantur leges If the faulte be ecclesiastical and neede ecclesiastical pounishment and discipline let the wel beloued Bishop of God iudge and discerne it and let not the honorable Iudges of the Prouince intermedle with it at al. For it is not our pleasure that Ciuil Magistrates haue at al the examination of suche matters seing suche matters must be examined ecclesiastically after the order of the Canons and the offenders must be punished by Ecclesiastical discipline according to the holy and diuine Canons whiche our lawes doo not disdaine to folow Seing Iustinian hath so ordeined no wise man that hath read his Lawes wil saie that either he in fringed those Priuileges or as one contrarie to him selfe made a lawe against the Liberties of the Churche without any mention of the former that he him selfe had made Wherefore Iustinian in the Law that you reherse M. Iewel is to be vnderstanded to speake of ciuil and tēporal cases and that in those cases no Bishop should be brought before the Lieutenant and Ciuil Magistrate except the Prince so commaunded it Now whereas you vpon those wordes say that a Bisshop maie be conuented before a Ciuil Magistrate we graunt and euer so said that in Ciuil causes and temporal maters of which Iustinian speaketh Bishops may be cōuented before a temporal Magistrate But that is not our question But this is that which we say The very point of this Question that it is not lawful for a Prince to cal a Priest to his seate of iudgemēt in Ecclesiastical causes And in this your owne authour Iustinian condemneth you He saith as you heard before Autent 83. col 6. vt Clerici Si ecclesiasticū sit delictū c. If the faulte be ecclesiastical let the welbeloued Bisshop of God iudge and discerne it Let the honorable Iudges of the Prouince intermedle nothing at al with it For we wil not that Ciuil Magistrates haue the examination of suche matters And againe Cod. de Episco clericis L. Clericus Si verò crimen sit Ecclesiasticum episcopalis erit examinatio castigatio If the faulte be Ecclesiastical the examination and pounishing of it shal apperteine vnto the Bisshoppe But peraduenture you wil replie to this and saie that Iustinian in the lawe by you rehersed speaketh not onely of Ciuil but also of ecclesiastical causes and willeth a Bishop in qualibet causa in any cause to be conuented before the temporal magistrate if the Prince do so commaunde If you or your lawier make this obiection we answer that it can not be shewed out of al Iustinians lawes Anthent 83. col 6. vt Clerici that he willed a Bishop or Prieste to be conuented before a temporal Magistrate in an Ecclesiastical cause or to be pounished for any hainous offence before he were degraded of his Bishop And hereof if you had but a meane smattering in the Ciuil Lawe you could not be ignorant Besides that already alleged you find in the Code this Lawe Cod. de Episco Clericis L. Statuimus Statuimus vt nullus Ecclesiasticā personam in criminali quaestione vel ciuili trahere ad iudicium seculare praesumat contrae cōstitutiones imperiales canonicas sanctiones We ordeine and decree that no man presume to bring any Ecclesiastical person to the seate of iudgement of any seculare Magistrate in a criminal or ciuil cause contrarie to the Imperial Constitutions and canonical Decrees By this you see that it is against both the Emperours constitutions and Canons of the Churche that a Bishop should be conuented before a Magistrate in an Ecclesiastical cause As for the vantage which you seeke in those wordes In qualibet causa in any cause it is none at al. Had not you benne blinded with malice and your lawier with ignorance you might haue learned A Maxima amōg the lavviers that it is a Maxima and a Principle with the lawiers that Leges tales indefinitè loquentes intelligendae sunt secundùm aliam legem speciatim loquentem Such lawes speaking indefinitely must be vnderstanded by an other lawe that speaketh specially and particularly Wherefore seing the lawe Clericus in the Code and the Antentike vt Clerici in the new Constitutions make special mention that Bishops and Priestes should not be conuented before Ciuil Magistrates in Ecclesiastical causes and permitte no temporal Iudge to meddle with Ecclesiastical personnes excepte it be in Ciuil matters and that with a Limitation and a Prouiso also it had ben your parte and your blinde Lawiers also to haue vnderstanded those wordes In qualibet causa in any cause spoken there indefinitely by the other Lawes that speake more specially But then had you lost a peeuish sophistical Argument and menne had not knowen your worthy skil in the Lawe which no doubte wil appeare great by your practise Iewel pag. 637. 638. The Emperour Martianus cōmaundeth if the cause be criminal that the Bisshop be conuented before the Lieutenant vt coram Praeside conueniatur Harding For your credite touching Martianus commaundement you referre vs to the Code of Iustinian L. Si qui ex consensu de Episco Audient L. Cum Clericis de Episco Clericis As for the first you may tel your lawier that he hath fouly deceiued you and therefore is not worthy to haue his fee. That lawe Si qui ex consensu Cod. de Episcop Audient was neuer made by Martianus the Emperour but by Arcadius and Honorius and requireth neither Bishop nor Prieste nor Clerke to be conuented before the Lieutenant but declareth that if any by mutual consent wil haue their matter debated before the Bishop as an arbiter it shal be lawful for them so to do as euery man that either considereth the law or readeth the Summe set before it may easily see M. Ievv forgeth As for the other lawe Cum Clericis although it be Martianus decree yet hath it not those wordes vt coram Praeside conueniatur that the Bishop be conuented before the Lieutenant nor any clause or sentence sounding to that pupose For trial whereof I referre me to the booke and to any indifferent man that can reade and vnderstande it But suppose it to be true that the Emperour Martianus had geuen suche a commaundement what could it aduantage your cause M. Iewel You should proue
The Emperour Constantinus in his letters to the people of Nicomodia Theodorit li. 1. c. 19. speaking of the vvilful errours and heresies of Priestes and Bishoppes saith thus Illorum temeraria praesumptio mea hoc est ministri Christi manu coercebitur Their rashe attemptes shal be repressed by my hande that is to saie by the hande of Christes seruant August cōtra epist Parme. li. 1. cap. 7. So likevvise S. Augustine saith to the Donatistes An fortè de religione fas non est vt dicat Imperator vel quos miserit Imperator Cur ergo ad Imperatorem legati vestri venerant Is it not lavvful that the Emperour or the Emperours deputie shoulde pronounce in a case of Religion VVherefore then vvent your ovvne Ambassadours to the Emperour Harding If you had said M. Iewel that Constantinus in his epistle to the Nicomedians had threatned to pounishe Bishoppes and Priestes that were Arians that is cursed and abominable heretiques you had in some parte said the truthe But where you saie that he spake of the wilful errours and heresies of Priestes and Bishoppes and adde not Arian Priestes and Arian Bishoppes you conceele parte of the true Storie and declare your malicious hart against Priestes and Bishoppes But to leaue that cankred spite of yours to the iudgement of God why doo ye not report the Emperours wordes as they are in your authour Theodoritus M. Ievvels corruptiō Wil you neuer leaue this your accustomed vile corruption Theodoritus saith not as you reporte but thus Theodorit lib. 1. cap. 19. Quòd si quis audacter inconsultéque ad memoriam laudē pestium illarū exarserit illius statim audacia ministri Dei hoc est mea executione coercebitur If any man be inflamed boldely and incircumspectly at the remembrance and cōmendation of those wicked and pestilent heretiques his boldenes shal be repressed straightwaie by execution done by me that am the minister of God And these threatning wordes of the Emperour are to be referred to the people of Nicodemia for to them the epistle was directed And hauing tēporal iurisdiction as power of life and death ouer them he put that terrour into their hartes that they should be neither in loue nor in admiration of those accursed Bishoppes whom he had bannished for the Arian heresie Or if M. Iewel wil haue those wordes of the Emperour to be referred as wel to the Bishoppes and Priestes as to the laie people Let him vnderstand that as it is lawful for any Prince to pounish heretiques that are excommunicate by the Churche and deliuered to the secular power be they Bishoppes or priestes So it was lawful for Constantine to pounishe these wicked Arian Bishoppes excommunicated and accused by the. 318. Bishoppes in the Councel of Nice And as the prince that now as an executour of Iustice pounisheth heretikes by death is not for that cōsideration neither iudge in causes of heresie nor supreme gouernour of the Churche So Constantine at that time had no iurisdiction ouer Bishoppes in ecclesiastical causes albeit he bannished them and threatned them other pounishmēt if they fel in loue of those cursed Arians For the princes threatning of pounishment for heresie is no argument to build a superioritie in ecclesiastical causes As for the place whiche you bring out of S. Augustine you brought it before in your Replie to proue that Emperours might receiue Appeales in ecclesiastical causes Art 4. fol. 104. 105 106. And a sufficient answere was made vnto it in the Returne of Vntruthes vpon you Why conceele you that If you had ben studious of the truthe for Goddes sake you should haue yelded vnto it or if you had iudged it false haue confuted it and not let it passe in silence and now trouble the Reader with the same stuffe againe But peraduenture you wil saie that you neuer sawe that booke and therefore that you dissemble not the answer If it were credible that you would not see a booke written directely against you and one that toucheth you so neare this excuse were tolerable But seing it hath no colour of truthe there can be litle pretended to saue you from the gilte of dissimulation and hypocrisie in this case I answere you therefore as he did S. Augustine spake in that place against the stubborne Donatistes of whom Parmenianus was one whiche complained that the Emperour Constantine eos ad campum id est ad supplicium duci iussit commaunded them to be brought foorth into the fielde that is to pounishement And in reasoning against him he tooke aduantage of his owne doinges not as allowing the Appeale to the Emperour but as prouing him vnreasonable who for aduantage would appeale to the Emperour and when the Emperour had pronounced sentence against him would striue and repine at the sentence and saie that he being a temporal prince ought not to pounishe Bishoppes Like as if you M. Iewel hauing made the Queene supreme gouernour of your Churche should saie in case you were condemned of heresie or of Simonie by the Prince Her grace ought not to condemne me in these cases a Catholique that flattereth her not with that title would reason against you and saie No sir Is it not laweful for the Queene to condemne you in a case of heresie and Simonie Why then made you the Queene supreme gouernour of your Churche Euen so did S. Augustine reason against the Donatistes And bicause by their appeale to his Maiestie they had chosen him iudge in their cause and after said he could not condemne them S. Augustine vsed their owne weapon against them to cōuince their folie and said as you saie Is it not lawful that the Emperour or the Emperours deputie should pronounce in a case of Religion Wherefore then went your owne Ambassadours to the Emperour c. But as the Catholique reasoning in suche wise against you can not be said by that to allowe the Queenes supremacie So S. Augustine in this talke against the Donatistes can not be said to allowe the Emperours authoritie in condemning of Bishoppes and other ecclesiastical causes For he answering an other Donatiste that said Augustinus epist 162. Non debuit episcopus proconsulari iudicio purgari a Bishop ought not to make his purgation before a temporal magistrate said If he be worthy to be blamed whom the temporal iudge hath absolued whereas he him selfe did not require it how much more are they to be blamed whiche would haue a temporal prince to be iudge in their cause By this it appeareth that he thought that Princes could not be iudges ouer Bishoppes Ibidem Moreouer he reporteth that Constantine who appointed iudges to heare their cause did it à sanctis Antistitibus veniam petiturus as minding to aske pardon of the holy Bishoppes for his facte And the same Emperour seing their importunitie in repairing to him as iudge said Optatus li. 1. cōtra Parmen O rabida furoris audacia Sicut in causis
errour whiche he helde as his priuate opinion was condemned at the sounde of trompettes in presence of that king as Gerson writeth but that was done before he was Pope Iewel 639. Your ovvne Glose saith Dist 63. In Synod in Glos Papa potest dare potestatem Imperatori vt deponat ipsum sese illi in omnibus subijcere The Pope maie geue the Emperour povver to depose him selfe and maie in al thinges submitte him selfe vnto him Harding Be it that our Glose saith so M. Iewel your Glose I might rather saie For the Gloser seemeth to be your chiefe Doctour There was neuer Diuine that serued him selfe with the stuffe of the Glose so muche as you doo What inferre you vpon it If you can like a good Logician frame this argument vppon that Glose The Pope maie geue the Emperour authoritie to depose him selfe Ergo the Pope maie be conuented before the Magistrate as one that through vertue of his temporal office is his superiour in Ecclesiastical causes let vs haue it in writing and we wil returne you the like with as good consequence and saie The Queene may geue anie of her Lordes and subiectes power to depose her from her roial estat and to transferre it to an other Ergo shee maie be conuented before that Lord and subiect of hers as one that hath authoritie to depose her of him selfe without commission and authoritie from her grace And if you finde fault with the sequele of this find fault with the sequele of you own For they are both like Dist 93. cap. vltim in Glossa The Law saith Ex alterius persona quis consequitur quod non habet ex sua A man getteth of an other-mannes person that which he hath not of his owne Wherefore the Emperour hauing authoritie of the Pope to depose him Extr. de off iudicis Deleg c. Sanè hath not that authoritie of him selfe or any his Imperial power but of the Pope And seing Iudex delegatus à Papa gerit vices Papae a Iudge delegated of the Pope occupieth the roome of the Pope the Emperour in this case shal not depose him as Emperour but as the Popes Vicegerent and Delegate Iewel Pag. 639. Franciscus Zarabella saith De schemate Concilio It is de Schismate pontificuÌ„ Papa accusari potest coram Imperatore de quolibâ—t crimine notorio Imperator requirere potest à Papa rationem fidei The Pope maie be accused before the Emperour of any notorious crime and the Emperour maie require the Pope to yelde an accompte of his faith Harding Neither Franciscus Zarabella nor Franciscus Zabarella for so is his true name saith as you reporte that Papa potest accusari coram Imperatore de quolibet crimine notorio M. Ievvel falsifieth his Doctor by addition of his ovvne to helpe his mater The Pope maie be accused before the Emperour of any notorious crime Those wordes coram Imperatore before the Emperour are of your owne interlacing and be not in the Authour You ought to be ashamed so fouly to corrupte your authours and deceiue the people Againe Zabarella sayth not Imperator requirere potest à Papa rationem fidei the Emperour may require the Pope to yeelde an accompte of his faieth They are your woordes Maister Iewel That whiche Zabarella saith is thus Zabarella made to saie What pleaseth M. Ievvel Si Papa est de haeresi suspectus potest Imperator ab eo exigere vt indiret quid sentiat de fide that is if the Pope be suspected of heresie the Emperour may require of him that he declare what he thinketh of the Faith Nowe sir to require a man to yeelde an accompte of his Faith and to require him to declare what he thinketh are twoo diuerse thinges For the one can not be donne but by Superiour authoritie the other by waie of friendship and common charitie But as for Superiour authoritie In vvhat case of necessitie the Emperour may entermedle vvith matters of Faith and religion after the minde of Zabarella Zabarella alloweth the Emperour none ouer the Pope nor graunteth that he maie intermedle in Ecclesiastical causes but in an extreme necessitie to witte if there were two Popes at one time as there were when he wrote this Treatie whence you fetche your falsified sentences and neither would yeelde vnto the other nor the Cardinalles take order for the quiet gouernemente of the Churche in procuring a General Councel and if he saw the Antipape to geue ouer his vsurped Authoritie then the Emperour whose duetie is to defende the Catholique Faithe maie intermedle in Ecclesiastical causes saith Zabarella His wordes are these Cùmergo deficit Papa vel Cardinales Francis Zabarella de Schismate pontificuÌ„ qui subrogantur Papae in Congregatione Concilij vt dictum est in praecedenti quaestione ad ipsum Imperatorem qui pars post praedictos est praecipua Concilij spectat Congregatio Nec quenquam moueat quòd Imperator est Laicus vt ex hoc putet esse inconueniens quòd se intromittat de clericis Non enim semper prohibetur iudicare de clericis sed tunc prohibetur quando non subest ratio specialis Nam propter specialem rationem permittitur vt ratione feudi Hoc autem casu subest ratio specialis imo specialissima ne fides Catholica ruat quod nimium periclitatur diu permittendo pluralitatem in summo Pontificatu In quo maximè est Imperatoris praecipuam habet potestatem Nam permittere plures in Papatu est offendere illum fidei articulum vnam sanctam Catholicam c. Therefore when the Pope faileth or the Cardinalles who are nexte in roome vnto the Pope substituted to the Pope in assembling of a CouÌ„cel as it was said in the nexte question before the assembling of a Councel apperteineth vnto the Emperour who after the Pope and the Cardinalles is the chiefe parte Neither it ought to moue any man to thinke it inconuenient that the Emperour in that he is a laie man should intermedle with maters belonging to clerkes For he is not alwaies inhibited to iudge of Clerkes But then he is forbidden when there is no special cause For it is permitted for some special reason as in consideration of fealtie And in this cause there is a special yea a most special reason that the Catholique Faith come not to ruine bicause it is in great danger by long suffering of pluralitie in the Popedome that is to say of moe Popes then one In which the Emperour is the chiefe doer and he hath the chief power For to permitte many Popes in the Popedome is to offende that article of the Faith I beleeue one holy Catholique and Apostolike Churche By this and the whole discourse that Zabarella your authour maketh there it appeareth M. Iewel that the Emperour hath not the authoritie you pretende but in that case of extreme necessitie And by your aduocate in the Lawe if he had not
benne halfe in a phrenesie you might haue learned L. NaÌ„ ad ad ea ff de legibus ff de regu lis iuris that ex ijs quaeraro accidâ—nt lages non fiunt of those thinges that happen seldome lawes are not made And Quae propter necessitatem recepta sunt non debent in argumentum trahi those thinges that are receiued for necessitie ought not to be drawen to an argument or president to be followed Wherefore â—â—ither vpon the doinges of the Emperours in that great and lamentable schisme of the Church neither vpon Zabarella you can builde that Bishoppes may ordinarily be conuented before a ciuil Magistrate in ecclesiastical causes But sir seing you thought it conuenient for your purpose to vse the authoritie of Zabarella although you haue fowly falsified and misreported his wordes tel vs by what reason you maie refuse his authoritie if we can allege it against you He saith in the same treatie that you allege Papa est vniuersalis Episcopus Zabarella M. Ievvels ovvne doctor alleged agaiÌ„st M. Ievvel Papa non habet superiorem Papa habet iurisdictionem potestatem super omnes de iure Sedes Apostolica errare non potest The Pope is the vniuersal Bishop The Pope hath no superiour The Pope hath iurisdiction and power ouer al by lawe The Apostolique See can not erre Why admitte you not this Is it reason that you should admitte an authours saying the whiche he spake and allowed in a case of necessitie for auoiding of a greater danger and not admitte the same authours saying in the same treatie whiche he speaketh according to receiued and approued doctrine of the Catholique Church Aske your aduocate L. Si quis Cod. de testibus and he wil tel you that reason and lawe faith That si quis vsus fuerit testibus ijdemque testes producantur aduersus eum in alia lite non licebit personas eorum excipere If one vse witnesses in a cause and the same witnesses be brought against him in an other controuersie it is not lawful for him to make exception against their personnes And if either reason or lawe could preuaile where heresie hath entred you should not onely admitte this but also that whiche he saith in an other place â—â—â—â—stas 〈…〉 immediate pendat à Deo Ioan. 21. per illa verba Pasce 〈…〉 Papa habet potestatem supra omnes quic omnes sunt â—â—â—s Papae vicem Dei gerit in terris Zabarella in ClemeÌ„t de SenteÌ„t reiudicata cap. pastoralis Ibidem in Clement de magistris cap. Inter. de Sentent excommu cap. ex frequeÌ„tib The power of the Pope dependeth immediatly of God by those wordes feede my sheepe The Pope hath power ouer al bicause al be sheepe The Pope beareth the person of God in earth For he spake this with as good aduise as he spake the other And this is generally allowed and that but in a case Wherefore if his authoritie be good in the one ought it not to be good in the other Now therefore M. Iewel I reporte me to your indifferent iudgement how true it is that you saie that a Prince or a ciuil magistrate maie lawfully cal a Priest before him to his owne seate of iudgement and that a Bishop maie be conuented before the Magistrate as his lawful and superiour iudge in ecclesiastical causes No one example or sentence that ye haue yet alleged doth proue that vaine assertion of yours Neither could ye haue had any aduantage by them if ye had truely reported their wordes and declared the circumstances why and wherefore they were spoken But that liked you not Wherefore referring your corruption and false dealing in these matters of weight to the judgement of God and examination of the indifferent and wise I conclude against you with S. Augustine S. Ambrose S. Chrysostome and al other Catholique Fathers that it is not conuenient Extr. de Maiorit obed cap. 2. in marg nor lawful for a king to cal priestes before him to his owne seat of Iudgement as their superiour in ecclesiastical causes As for the note glosed in the Decretalles which ye bring to proue that priestes are exempted from the Emperours iurisdiction by the Popes policie and the princes consent and not by the worde of God we tel you that suche glosed notes declare you to be a very Gloser and argue that your stoare is farre spent when you rest vpon such marginal glosed notes Were it graunted which in no case we graunt that Bisshoppes and priestes were exempted from the Emperours iurisdiction in ecclesiastical causes onely by the Popes policie and consent of princes for confirmation whereof they haue made diuers lawes and geuen out large priuileges yet these lawes standing vnreapealed and priuileges vnauthorized they can not be conuented lawfully before the ciuil magistrate For it standeth not with the Maiestie of a prince to doo against his owne lawes and breake the priuileges by him selfe graunted to others before he hath with as mature aduise and consideration reuoked them as he did first graunte them That the Canonistes are wrongfully charged by the Apologie with teaching the people that Simple Fornication is no sinne The 15 Chapter The wordes of the Apologie Defence Pag. 357. They be the Popes ovvne Canonistâ—â— vvhiche haue taught the people that Fornication betvven single foâ—â—â— iâ— no sinne Harding A sclaunder vttered by the Apologie against the Canonistes not recanted in the Defence touching the thing but only touching the errour of the name IN my CoÌ„futation I saie that this is a greuous offence and worthy to be pounished in processe I saie to the makeâ—s of the Apologie How proue ye it They allege for it one Iohn de Magistris How be it M. Iewel hath recanted that errour and confesseth him selfe to haue ben deceiued For he graunteth it was Martinus de Magistris whom he meant or should haue meant He should doo wel to recant diuers other the like his errours For he hath not only ben deceiued by his note bookes or his Notegatherers in naming Iohn de Magistris for Martinus de Magistris but also in the names of sundrie other menne as it shal be declared in the nexte Chapter But touching the sclaunder of the Canonistes if Martinus de Magistrâ—â— had so taught yet the matter is not cleare for he wâ—â— no Canoniste but a Schoole Doctor of Diuinitie Againâ— he â—â—â—â—ht not the people as our Maisters of the Apologie â—â—e but onely wrote of that matter after the Scholastical manner from vnderstanding whereof the peoples simple capacitie is farre of Wel let these three errours Lyes or ouersightes be â—inâ—â—ed at Hitherto the Canonistes are not touched but sclaundered What shal we answer for Martinus de Magistris Certainely neither that Doctour taught either the people or any other person that vngodly and false Doctrine Certaine it is that in this Treatie De Temperantia quaestione 2. he taught the contrarie where
non castè tamen cautè If ye doo it not chastely yet doo it charily Harding You mistake your marke M. Iewel naming Otho Bonus for Otho They were diuers menne as you might haue sene in the Constitutions that you allege wherein your skil in the Canon lawe appeareth If you had laid forth the place wholly as true and vpright dealing requireth it should soone haue appeared vpon how smal a matter you pike so great a quarrel Thus it is Iohannes de Athon who wrote the Glose vpon the Constitutions Legatine of Otho hauing declared how a Clerke by which worde is not meant onely a Priest as you alwaies interprete but any that is within Orders be they the lesser or the greater is to be pounished for hauing a Concubine at length after his manner demaundeth this question Sed quid dices de punitione ipsarum Concubinarum si ad suam excusationem coram Iudice ecclesiastico se asserant publicas Meretrices quaestu corporis viuentes But what wilt thou saie of the pounishment of the Concubines them selues if for their excuse they saie before the ecclesiastical Iudge that they are common whoores lyuing by the gaine of that filthy seruice of their body Now immediatly there foloweth the answer which M. Iewel bringeth against the Canonistes not without a litle point of falsifying by nipping awaie this word Hoc an ordinarie marke of his workemanship Hoc nipâ—e avvaie by M. Ievv a vvorde of important siâ—uification Videtur quòd Hoc crimen Meretricij sub dissimulatione transire debeat Ecclesia It seemeth that the Churche ought to passe ouer this Crime of whooredome vnder dissimulation that is to saie to dissemble it The cause why the Churche ought to dissemble this crime in suche wemen as professe publique whooredom whiche the author of that Glose saith not precisely but speaketh it as an opinion and as a thing that seemed to some menne reasonable I had rather M. Iewel heard it of an other man then of me Certainely he maie iudge it is not altogether without cause that al Christendome ouer whereas al other wemen be pounished for the sinne of the flesh onely the common and publique whoores be let alone vnder dissimulation Yet it argueth not that simple fornication is made no sinne If M. Iewel would haue read further in that Glose he should haue founde these expresse wordes by whiche the Canonistes are cleered and he further charged with a false sclaunder Dic tamen quòd hoc peccatum prosequi debet Ecclesia vt mortale Ibidem Yet saie thou by whiche wordes he signifieth his owne opinion that the Church ought to pursue this sinne Vnde illud vulgare Si non castè tamen cautè as deadly sinne Whereof it foloweth that continuing in suche life they might not be admitted to the Sacramentes of holy Church As for those other wordes whiche we finde in the Glose Si non castè tamen cautè they are there rehersed as a common saying not as a rule or a precepte of the Canon Lawe neither perteine they to clerkes more then to the laie sorte The circumstance of the place considered and weighed al thinges maie seme there to be wel and discretely said Of two that committe Fornication he doth lesse euil that dooth it secretely then the other that doth it openly For the open fornicatour increaseth the offence by his il example by the offence the people take of it and by the contempte of his owne fame and good name Of suche a one it is said there out of the Lawe quòd famae suae prodigus etiam quoad homines suspensus est licet occulta fornicatio quoad Deum turbet bonam conscientiam that being a recheles loser of his owne fame he is suspended also as concerning the estimation of menne although the pryuie Fornication doo trouble a good conscience as touching God So then if it be an il thing a man to be suspended among menne and to lose the fame of his honestie Crudelis est qui famam contemnit if he be accompted cruel and desperate that careth not for his good name if it be dangerous to the soule also to prouoke others to offend by il example al these euilles folowing the publique and open fornicatour though secrete fornication ought also hartily to greeue and vexe the conscience before God how shal not that vulgare saying seeme to geue good counsel Si non castè tamen cautè whereby a man is not animated at al to doo il but if he hap to do his vncleane lust If not chastely yet charily or wil not be staid from it is admonished to doo it charily though not chastly And if there were any il meaning in this vulgare saying as there is not though it maie be abused to cast some shadow vpon euil lyuers the iudgement of the Canonistes were not to be reproued thereof but the custome of the worlde from whence it proceeded Iewel Pag. 360. Likevvise saith Petrus Rauennas one of your notable Canonistes Extra de immunitate EcclesiaruÌ„ Pet. RaueÌ„nas vpon the Decretalles Quamuis tactus oscula sint praeludia incontinentiae in Laicis secus tamen est in Clericis Nam Clericus praesumitur ista facere pro charitate bono Zelo. Notvvithstanding handeling and kissing in laie Personnes be the occasions or beginninges of incontinent behauiour yet in Priestes it is far othervvise For a Priest is presumed to doâ— these thinges of Charitie and of good zele Harding Yet Petrus Rauennas saith not that Simple Fornication is no sinne That is the thing you haue taken in hande to proue against the Canonistes When touche you the point In Italie where this lawier liued to kisse a woman is taken for a certaine earnest of a wanton bargaine promised and therefore openly men kisse not women at first and last salutations as the vse is in England But bicause that thing maie be in it selfe diuers according to the diuers manners of Countries and therefore maie be deemed good nolesse then euil menne being bounde to iudge the best of that whiche maie be wel done or is at least indifferent the Lawier considering the vertue and degree of a Clerke saith that an euil presumption is not lightly to be taken thereof but willeth it to be taken for courtesie and charitable salutation as it is taken in England and in sundry other countries Extra de Prebend c. nisi in principio For the qualitie and state of the person doth oftentimes purge the suspicion that otherwise is woont to rise of any acte Let vs heare what other Gloses this Gloser bringeth for his purpose Iewel Pag. 360. 11. quaest 3. Absit in Glossa Likevvise it is noted in your Glose Si Clericus amplectitur mulierem Laicus interpretabitur quod causa benedicendi eam hoc faciat If a Priest imbrace a vvoman a laieman must iudge of it thus that he dooth it to the intent to blesse her VVhere also ye