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A47928 Toleration discuss'd, in two dialogues I. betwixt a conformist, and a non-conformist ... II. betwixt a Presbyterian, and an Independent ... L'Estrange, Roger, Sir, 1616-1704. 1670 (1670) Wing L1316; ESTC R1454 134,971 366

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of a Religious Education C. If This be All never Trouble your selves for many an honest Man has out-liv'd more then this comes to In short There 's a huge Clamour but God knows with little Reason Some Particulars will possibly suffer for want of a Toleration and who are They but the Profest Opposers of the Law And on the Other side All the Friends of the Government will suffer by it If you would see the Event of Granting what you ask Turn but your Face toward 41 and then Blush and Repent Besides You 're not aware that in Contesting with the Law you Quarrel with your self THERE' 's YOUR OWN VOTE AGAINST YOU and all this Muttering is no other then your Factious Will wrangling with your Political Consent And yet I say Stick to your Conscience Let us now put the Case of a Real Distance betwixt This Act and your Conscience How will you divide your Duty N. C. I 'le follow your Advice and stick to my Conscience C. Now change Hands and make your self the Supreme Magistrate He has a Double Conscience One that concerns Himself the Other his People What his Majesties Personal Iudgment is has been Declared Abundantly What his Prudential Iudgment may dispose Him to lies in His Royal Brest But be That as Heaven shall Order it Here 's the Partition of your Rights The King's Prerogative has nothing to do with your Conscience and your Conscience has as little to do with His Majesties Prerogative The King is Accomptable to God for the Welfare of his People and You are only Accomptable to God for the Good of your little Particular If You cannot Obey the Law Do not But abide the Penalty If the Sovereign cannot Relax the Law He 's as Free to Execute it Your Conscience requires Liberty and your Governour 's Conscience requires Order Now why you should expect that your Sovereign should bring down His Conscience to Yours when you find upon Experiment that you cannot perswade your Own to come up to His is to me a Mystery To Conclude Keep your self within your Sphere and where you cannot Consent as a Christian Submit as a Subject that We may at last hope for some Respite from the Calamities of Sedition and Schism N. C. And why not Scandal and Profaneness too For the Edge of your Severity might be directed to much better Purpose That way SECT XXIV The Church of England charges the Non-Conformists with SCHISM and the Non-Conformists charge those of the Church with SCANDAL The Matter is taken into Debate N. C. YOur Position is That no Toleration is to be admitted to the hazzard of Religion Good Life and Government Keep to That Standard and you will find that the Conformists have as little Pretense to a Toleration as their Neighbours and that the Notorious Scandal on the one side outweighs the Objected Schism on the other C. This will scarce hold if you come to be Try'd by your own Laws which make it a Matter of Scandal by Writing Preaching or otherwise to publish a Disaffection to the Present Government But Explain your self N. C. By Scandal I mean Habitual Prophaneness Sensuality Dissolution of Manners c. As by Schism I suppose you intend our Incompliances with your Church-Discipline Weigh These Two now One against the Other and do you your self hold the Balance Set up your Tavern-Clubs against our Conventicles Oppose your Combinations against God Himself to our Plots against the Government For you must not take it Ill if I tell ye that Atheism is become the Sport and Salt of your most Celebrated Enterteinments And when you have dash'd the Bible out of Countenance with the Story of the Three Grand Impostors or some such Lashing Piece of Drollery The Questioning of God's Over-ruling Wisdom by Solemn Arguments and the Placing of Fortune in the Throne of Providence is that which commonly Crowns your Conversations C. You should not charge Personal Crimes upon a Party unless you can prove them to be rationally Consequent to the Tenets and Actings of That Party Now if you can shew me any Affinity betwixt our Principles and These Impieties you say something But if you cannot The Dust of your Argument puts out your own Eyes I do not wonder I must confess to see a Nation Over-run with Atheism that has been so many Years under your Tuition or to find the Brat of a Conventicle laid at the Church-Door N. C. May not We charge Personal Extravagancies upon your Party as well as You do upon Ours C. Yes If you can prove the same Agreement against Us betwixt the Faults of the One and the Principles of the Other which we are able to justifie against You. The Episcopal Party you know stood for the King and it is undeniable that the King and Church had the same Cause and Fate It is as unquestionable on the other side that the Non-Conformists destroy'd both the One and the Other Not by Accident neither but by a Form'd and Excogitated Design wrap'd up and couch'd in the very Mystery and Foundation of the Schism Your Separation from a Communion with the Church resolving naturally into a Combination against the Entire Frame of the Government till in the End by the help of a Peinful and Well-effected Ministry the Generality of the People were Preach'd into This Division i. e. Those that could not reach the Cheat were taught to Scruple at Every Thing and Those that went along with it to make a Conscience of Nothing And this is it that has brought us to be so Pester'd with Enthusiasts and Atheists N. C. But let me tell ye again the Atheists are of the Other Party C. And let me enform you too that your Proceedings have made Atheists more ways then One First The meer Quality of your Cause has made Atheism the Interest of a great many of your Partakers who to put off the Thought of a Divine Vengeance attending them if there be a God Endeavour for their own Quiet to perswade themselves that there is no God at all Secondly The Work has been carried on under the Masque of Holiness and the most Desperate Atheist is nothing else but a Crusted Hypocrite I speak of your Religious Atheist who has This Odds of the Profane and Scoffing Wretch that he abuses God to his Face and in his own House The Great Atheists indeed are Hypocrites says Sir Francis Bacon which are ever bandling Holy Things but without Feeling so as they must needs be Cauteriz'd in the End It is Remarquable as I have elsewhere recommended to your Observation that in the Holy Scripture there are not so many Woes pronounc'd nor so many Cautions Inculcated against any sort of People as against Hypocrites You shall there find that God has given the Grace of Repentance to Persecutors Idolaters Murtherers Adulterers c. But I am mistaken if the whole Bible yields any one Instance of a CONVERTED Hypocrite Thirdly You have done more in your Practises
Wicked Governour But that the Universality of the People may Lawfully do it I think no Body questions Fixum Ratúmque habeatur Populi semper esse debere Supremam Majestatem P. 9. VII The People may enter into a Covenant for Reformation without the Consent of the Chief Magistrate There is much Sin in making a Covenant on Sinful Grounds and there is more Sin in Keeping it But when the Preservation of true Religion and the Vindication of Just Liberties meet in the Ground Ye may Swear and not Repent Yea if Ye Swear Ye must not Repent P. 18. Not only is That Covenant which God hath made with Us founded in the Blood of Christ but That also which We make with God P. 33. The Breach of the National Covenant is a Greater Sin then a Sin against a Commandment or against an Ordinance 158. A Sin of so high a Nature that God cannot in Honour but be avenged upon 't 159. VIII RELIGION may be Propagated by the SWORD The Question in England is Whether Christ or Anti-Christ shall be Lord or King Go on therefore Couragiously Never can ye lay out your Blood in such a Quarrel Christ shed all his Blood to save You from Hell Venture All Yours to set Him upon his Throne P. 23. Cursed be he that withholdeth his Sword from Blood that spares when God saith Strike that suffers those to escape whom God has appointed to Destruction P. 24. In the 10 of Numbers you shall read that there were Two Silver Trumpets and as there were Priests appointed for the Convocation of their Assemblies so there were Priests to sound the Silver Trumpets to Proclaim the War And likewise in the 20 of Deuteronomy you shall find there that when the Children of Israel would go out to War the Sons of Levi one of the Priests was to make a Speech to Encourage them And certainly if this were the Way of God in the Old Testament certainly much more in such a Cause as This in which Cause Religion is so entwin'd and indeed so enterlac'd that Religion and This Cause are like Hippocrates his Twins they must live and dye together You have vowed in This Covenant to Assist the Forces raised by the Parliament according to your Power and Vocation and not to Assist the Forces raised by the King neither Directly nor Indirectly P. 45. Now let me exhort you not only to chuse to serve God and to serve his Church and his Cause in this most Iust Defensive War c. 46. In vain shall you in your Fasts with Josua ly on your Faces unless you lay your Achans on their Backs In vain are the High Praises of God in your Mouthes without a Two-edged Sword in your Hands P. 31. The Execution of Iudgment is the Lords Work and they shall be Cursed that do it Negligently and Cursed shall they be that keep back their Sword from Blood in this Cause You know the Story of Gods Message unto Ahab for letting Benhadad go upon Composition P. 26. Whensoever you shall behold the hand of God in the Fall of Babylon say ●…rue Here is a Babylonish Priest crying out Alas Alas My Living I have Wife and Children to Maintein I but all this is to perform the Iudgment of the Lord. P. 30. Though as Little Ones they call for Pitty yet as Babylonish they call for Iustice even to Blood IX There lies an Appeal from the Letter of the Law to the EQUITY of it And from the Law Written to the Law of NATURE The Commander going against the EQUITY of the Law gives Liberty to the Commanded to refuse Obedience to the Letter of it There is a Court of Necessity no less then a Court of Justice and the Fundamental Laws must then speak and it is with a People in this Extremity as if they had no Ruler P. 113. The People have given the Politique Power to the King and the NATURAL Power they Reserve to Themselves 151. All Humane Laws and Constitutions are made with Knees to bend to the Law of NATURE and NECESSITY P. 85. Here is more then enough said already and to go on as far as the Matter would carry us there would be no End on 't You are now at ●…berty either to deny These to be the Positions of the Non-Con●… or to justifie the Positions themselves or to lay down your Plea for Toleration upon the Innocency of their Principles N. C. I am no Friend to These Positions Neither can I yet quit my Clai●… unless you make it out that These are the Principles of the Party which I take to be only the Errours of Individuals C. Shew me the Party and let me alone to prove These to be Their Principles But if you will not acknowledge a Party they are as you say but the Errours of Individuals though all the Non-Conformists in the Three Kingdoms should own them under their Hands You call your selves Non-Confermists and so were they that both began and carried on the Late War Great Apprehensions they had of the Designs of the Popish Party So have you Mightily offended they were at the Immoderate Power of the Bishops You again Petitioners for the taking away such Oppressions in Religion Church Government and Discipline as had been brought in and Fomented by them Your very Picture still And for Uniting all such together as joyn in the same Fundamental Truths against the Papists ●…hy removing some Oppressions and Unnecessary Ceremonies by which Divers weak Consciences have been scrupled and seem to be divided from the rest The very Platform of your Comprehension Thus far You march Hand in Hand I need not tell you what followed upon 't but Your Parts are so much alike that it looks as if We were now again upon the first Seene of the same Tragedy For a Conclusion Conformity or In-Conformity seem'd at first to be the Sum of the Question and the Discipline of the Church was made the Ground of the Quarrel The Ru●…ing Party in the Pretended Parliament were Non-Conformists The Army Non-Conformists The Pre●…ended Assembly of Divines were Non Conformists The City-Ministers and Lecturers Non-Conformists And by the Sol●…mn League and Covenant every Man that took it was to be a Non-Conformist upon pain of Damnation Now take Your Choice since Non-Conformists you are Whether you 'l Range your selves under the Parliament Your Army Your Assembly Your City-Ministers Or Your Solemn League and Covenant And let me bear the Blame if I make it not as clear as the Day That the Principles charg'd upon You are the Principles of Your Party As to your PRACTISES They haue been suitable to your POSITIONS and All those Violences have been Exercised upon the Government that were first Dictated in the Pulpit The Lawfulness of Popular Insurrections Of Deposing and Putting Kings to Death under the Cloak of Reformation has been vented as the Doctrine of Iesus Christ even
of Common Prayer of the Church of England Without any Scandal either Given or Taken Nay so far are they from disowning us that the French Divines hold them for Schismatiques and Punishable that refuse Communion with us Bucer thanks God with all his Soul to see the English Ceremonies so pure N. C. And have they I beseech you their Set Forms Their Peremptory Impositions Their Declarations and Subscriptions C. Yes yes All This and more For Set Forms methinks you should rather tell me any one Reformed Church that wants a Set Form then put me to the Trouble of Naming all that have Calvin and Beza are Positive for them Geneva much more severe for the Observance of them then we are here Inconformity There is cause of Banishment for a Year And the Gallican Church makes it a matter of Excommunication In Geneva Calvin Establish'd his Discipline by an OATH both upon People and Pastors to observe That Form for ever after The Ministers take an Oath of Canonical Obedience in Hungary And the French Divines are not admitted without Subscription There 's no Imposing upon Publique Laws with Private Scruples No Bandying allow'd betwixt Conscience and Authority He that will not submit to the Orders of a Community Away with him says Calvin It is not enough to take cheque at the Constitutions of the Church under colour of a weak Conscience or so pretended but you must be fully satisfied that the Constitution is Wicked IN IT SELF Nay Calvin carries it further Suppose it really ministers Matter of Offence says he That will not serve to vacate the Obligation unless it be also found to be Simply and IN IT SELF Repugnant to the Word of God Quia tamen Verbo Dei PERSE non Repugnat Concedi potest To provide against Evil Consequences is the Magistrates Duty not the Subjects N. C. The Worship of God is in it self Pure and Perfect and Decent without having any such Ceremonies affixed thereunto And many Faithful Servants of the Lord knowing his Word to be a Perfect Rule of Faith and Worship have ever been exceeding fearful of Uarying from his Will and of the Danger of Displeasing him by Additions or Detractions in such Duties C. You will hardly find any honest President for this Nicety Calvin would have given it a worse Name Testatum Velim says he me non de Ceremoniis Litigare quae Decoro tantum Ordini Serviant vel etiam Symbola sunt Incitamenta ejus quam Deo deferimus Reverentiae He Declares himself you see not only for Ceremonies of Order and Decency but for Ceremonies of Significancy and Incitement to Reverence and Devotion And in another place Ergone Inquies nihil Ceremoniarum rudioribus dabitur ad juvandam Eorum Imperitiam Id ego non dico omnino enim utile illis esse sentio hoc Genus Adminiculi Will you allow of no Ceremonies then at all you 'l say for the Instruction of the Vulgar You do not hear me say so for I am clearly of opinion that they are of very great use and service to the People Upon the Main The English Non-Conformists as Mr. Durell well observes are a sort of People by themselves and Non-Conformists at Geneva and Francfort as well as at Canterbury or London N. C. But still methinks whatever our Consciences are as to the way of Publick Worship we might yet be Indulged with an Allowance of ●…erving God among our selves Why should a Toleration do worse Here then in Holland C. I might Answer you with another Question Why should a Commonwealth do worse Here then in Holland Or Why should a Standing Army do worse Here then in Holland Beside If you look narrowly into it you will find the Dissenters from the Settlement There to be rather Strangers then Natives English French High-Dutch that flowed in to them upon the General Revolt from the Church of Rome Lutherans and Anabaptists out of Germany Calvinists out of France Separatists and Semiseparatists out of England in the Days of Queen Mary and Independents since all which were entertein'd more out of Regard to Policy then Conscience their Business being at that time to shake off the Yoke of Spain and Change the Government To which End these several Parties contributed effectually by preparing the People for the Alteration Intended and inuring them to New Principles both of Religion and State And yet you are not to understand Theirs to be a Perfect Toleration neither For you see they would not upon any terms allow That Freedom to the Arminians which they did to Others but Conven'd a Synod and Exterminated the Sect. The reason was they had a Jealousie of the Arminians for Barnevelt's sake the Head of that Party You are to take notice also of the great difference betwixt the Interest and Condition of Our Ministers and Theirs Our Clergy have a Freehold in their Benefices for Term of Life and if they be Factiously disposed they may Evade the Law and do a Mischief without making a Forfeiture Whereas Theirs Preach upon Good Behaviour Live upon the States Pay and upon the least Colour of Offence may be turn'd off at pleasure I need not tell you what Havock Peters Bridges Sympson Ward made in Holland But what they did Abroad the same thing they would have done at Home if they had been Tolerated N. C. What do ye think of Poland then C. I think That Story speaks little to your Advantage take it either in Respect of their frequent Seditions or in Regard of their Prodigious and Heretical Opinions And yet they live under the strongest Obligation in Nature to keep them quiet The Tartar and other Powerful Neighbours lying hard upon them which makes their Case to be rather an Agreement against a Common Enemy then among Themselves N. C. Now take all at the worst It is but Athanasius against the World and The World against Athanasius Number and Truth are not always of a Side C. And yet Your Multitudes make up a great part of your Argument This however let me speak for you There has no Industry been wanting to Propagate your Profession In the Year 1619. The Scotch Discipline was presented to the Synod at Dort for their Approbation But they would not meddle with it Anno 1654. Upon the Reprinting at Geneva of A Collection of the several Confessions of Faith received in all the Reformed Churches of Europe under the Title of Corpus Syntag●…a Confessionum Fidei c. It was moved that the Thirty Nine Articles of the Church of England might be left out and the Assembly Mens Confession put in the place But the Motion was totally rejected The Thirty nine Articles Inserted and not a Word of the Directory They had no better luck with their Covenant neither then with their Discipline The Ministers and others of the Consistory at Charenton and of other Reformed Churches in France as also the Professours Ministers and Consistory of Geneva
then ever they had from the Presbyterians There was no Persecuting of Men for Covenants and Directories So that Thus far the Independents have made their Professions of Liberty good by their Practise Presb. And are not the Classical Presbyterians as much for a Lawful Liberty as the Congregationals L●…t there be a Toleration in Religion excepting to Blasphemy Treason or Gross Errours Bear with the Weak Tolerate the Tolerable and for the Intolerable we beg not your Toleration ●…ere's the Sense and Destre of the Presbyterian Divines that were Commission'd about the Review of the Service-Book Indep This is only a New Song to an Old Tune The Presbyterians have just the same need of the Independents at this day that they had some nine and twenty Years ago The Author of The Discourse of Religion has many good Remarques upon the Papists that may be very well applied to the Presbyterians and This for One. Things past says he may afford Prognostiques of things to come So that we are to gather what you intend now from what you did after saying the same things before Or if you had rather come to a Tryal upon the Evidence of your own Manifestos and Declarations then upon the History of your Practises I shall make use of no other Testimony against you The Presbyterians press the Demand of a Toleration as a very reasonable Request and yet they Themselves have pronounc'd Judgment against it as a thing against Conscience Destructive of Publique Order both in Church and State and of the Peace of Common Society Toleration says Mr. Edwards cannot be Condescended to without a Breach of Oath and Covenant It is the Depth of Satan this Design of a Toleration He does not move for a Toleration of Heresies and Gross Errours but an Allowance of a LATITUDE in some LESSER DIFFERENCES with Peaceableness This is Candidus ille Diabolus That White Devil c. The London Ministers Letter to the Assembly in 1645. declares it Repugnant to the Solemn League and Covenant The Commissioners of the Kirk of Scotland do Protest and Declare against it as Inconsistent with and Repugnant to the Word of God As to the Influence of a Toleration upon Church and State Mr. Edwards tells us that The Party Tolerated will never rest Working till they get the upper hand and Suppress the Other Rutherford is positive that such Opinions and Practises as make an Evident Schism in a Church and set up two Distinct Churches of Different Forms and Government are NOT to be Tolerated For by their Principles they labour each the Destruction of the other and this Toleration destroys Peace and Unity Again The London Ministers are of Opinion that it will produce causless and unjust Revolts from the Ministry and Congregations The Peoples Minds will be Troubled and in Danger to be Subverted Heart-burnings will be Fomented and Perpetuated to Posterity The Godly Peinful and Orthodox Ministers will be Discouraged and Despis'd The Life and Power of Godliness will be eaten up by Frivolous Disputes and Ianglings And the whole Church of England in short time will be swallowed up with Distraction and Confusion The Kingdom will be wofully weakned also by Scandals and Divisions The Power of the Magistrate will not be only weakned but utterly overthrown by the Anti-Magistratical Principles and Practises of the Independents And the whole Course of Religion in Private Families will be interrupted and undermined Not to multiply Authorities more then necessary This has been the strein of all your Proceedings Imperiously and Inexorably Strict and Rigorous in Imposing upon Others and as Shamelesly Importune and Clamorous for Liberty to Your selves But what have I more to do then to pass Sentence upon you out of your own Mouths You cannot in Conscience desire a Toleration if you understand it to be Against Conscience to Grant it And the very Asking of That which you believe would draw a Destruction upon Church and State is Ground enough for a strong Presumption that you Intend it Presb. That which was a Reasonable Cause of Refusal from the Presbyterians to the Independents will not hold good from the Church of England to the Presbyterians Either in respect of the Stability of our Government or of the Sobriety of our Principles SECT XXVII In Case of a Toleration or Indulgence to be Granted Whether has the fairer Pretense to it The CLASSICAL Way of the PRESBYTERIANS or the CONGREGATIONAL Way of the INDEPENDENTS in Respect of their Form of Government Indep THe Presbyterians you say are rather to be Tolerated then the Independents in regard of the Stability of their Government and the Sobriety of their Principles To speak in this Place to the Matter of their Government I think your Argument is very ill grounded For in Deliberations of this Nature the Cautions that occur to all Magistrates are chiefly These Two First in case of an Indulgence that it may be placed upon a Party which in Probability would not disturb the Publique if they could But Secondly to make sure however for fear of the worst that they shall not be able to do it if they would So that whether a Stable and United or a Loose and Distracted Interest may with more Security be Indulged is the Question Presb. You may as well ask Whether Order or Confusion be more Tolerable in a Government Indep That Order which is Necessary in the Government it self is Dangerous in the Enemies of it But deliver your Exceptions to the Toleration of those which you call Independents in Regard of their way of Government Presb. You have already in a good part sav'd me that Labour But a Man shall not need to go further for an Exception then to the very Denomination of them which Imports an Exemption from all Iurisdiction both Eclesiastical and Civil Indep But what will become of That Exception when I shall tell you that those People are no more Independent then the Presbyterians We depend upon the Magistrate for Civil Government and Protection and upon Christ and his Word for the Rule of our Administrations Nay we insist upon it that the Congregational Way is the only true Original Presbytery which is Peculiar to every Particular Church of Christ. But if you call us Independent as in distinction to Subordinate we are not only ready as such Independents to defend our selves but by virtue of That very Independency we pretend to claim an Advantage over the Presbyterians Presb. I could tell ye of your Church-Covenants and Defensive Leagues against the Commands of Authority Indep But I could speak homer to you of your National Leagues and Covenants which all the World knows are the grand Engines to disjoynt Communities and remove the Foundations of Government And I do not much wonder at it where the Act of a General Assembly Influences the Consciences of a whole Nation As to any Covenants and Leagues against the Magistrate neither do the Independents practise
that Discipline Which will best appear by a view of the Powers which the Presbytery claims and Exercises But let me Commend One Note to you as Previous to that Examination This Party has constantly screw'd it self into the World by an Oath of Mutual Defence Which Oath they apply as well to the Ruine and Extirpation of their Opponents as to their own Preservation by making it a Test of good Affection to That Interest and Excluding all People whatsoever from any Office or Benefit Ecclesiastical or Civil without subscribing it You cannot deny but this Oath in the very Institution of it is a Violence both upon Law and Conscience and Consequently that the Imposition falls heaviest upon those that make an Honourable and Religious Scruple of their Actions So that here is already exposed the most Considerable part of the Nation for the Subject of their Displeasure with their Lives Liberties and Fortunes at Mercy as you will find upon a further Consideration of their Usurped Authority and Iurisdiction Presb. Leave this way of General Discourse and come to Particular Instances Where is it that you find This Exorbitant Power that you talk of Indep In the very Declaration of the Commission of the General Assembly of Scotland 1648. page 53. The Duties of the Second Table as well as of the First As namely the Duties between King and Subject Parents and Children Husbands and Wives Masters and Servants and the Like being conteined in and to be taught and cleared from the Word of God are in That Respect and so far as concerneth the Point of Conscience a Subject of Ministerial Doctrine and in Difficult Cases a Subject of Cognizance and Iudgment to the Assembly of the Kirk The Dispute here was about the Assemblies Authority in the Question of War or Peace Is not This at one Blow to destroy the Order of all Relations Political Natural and Moral Princes must not presume to make War or Peace To Enact Laws or Abrogate To Spare or Punish without Ecclesiastical Licence The Subject must go to the Masters of the Parish to know whether he shall Obey Authority or Resist it And after the same manner it fares with Parents and Children Husbands and Wives Masters and Servants So that there is not any Person either Publique or Private Or any Action or Office of Regard to Community Family or Alliance that scapes their Pragmatical Scrutiny and Inspection Presb. So far as these Duties are matter of Conscience there is no Doubt but they are of Ecclesiastical Cognisance and further then so they make no Pretension Indep But you must give me leave to tell you then that their Consciences are larger then other Peoples The Old Nonconformist as au Expedient for the settling Ecclesiastical Affairs Page 43. proposes the setting up of Work-Houses for the Poor the Carrying on of the Fishing Trade The taking off of Protections that none may be Imprison'd but according to Law and the Abatement of Taxes The Assembly at Glasgow 1638. passed an Act concerning Salmon Fishing and another about Salt Pans And all This I Warrant ye so far as they concerned Point of Conscience But if you would see what the Consistory calls Conscience in the full Extent we must repair for satisfaction to their Direction and Practises in the matter of Conscience and Excommunication The Kirk proceeds to Excommunication in all Capital Crimes where the Offender that deserv'd to dye is suffer'd to live And in Cases of Fornication Drunkenness Swearing Cursing Sab●…ath-Breaking Wanton Words Contempt of the Orders of the Church Oppression of the Poor Deceipt in Buying and Selling by wrong Mete and Measure Presb. Well and what hurt 's in all this Indep None at all But let me proceed They Censure also Excess in Apparel Meat or Drink UNCOMELY GESTURES Contentiousnes without reasonable Cause Chiding Brawling VAINWORDS Every fault that tendeth to the Hurt of a Man's Neighbour or to the Hindrance of the Glory of God Whether by Force or Fraud Word or Deed Manifestly or Secretly Purposely or Ignorantly And the Judgment of the whole is left to the Discretion of the Church So that your very Thoughts are not free The Spiritual Ruler says the Book of Discipline Iudgeth Both Inward Affections and External Actions in respect of Conscience by the Word of God Upon which ground they take upon them to Censure the very SUSPICION of Avarice and Pride Superfluity or Riotousness in Chear or Rayment But upon Dancers Robin Hoods and all Games that brings Loss they have no mercy These particulars are extracted to a syllable out of the most Authentical Records they have to shew for the Warrant of the Scottish Discipline Our Blessed Model But many People perchance will make it a matter of nothing to be Excommunicate upon a Supposition that the Anathema is the uttermost spite of the Censure They never dream of Car●…ings Iogges Pillories Shaving their Beards and Cutting half the Hair of their Heads Banishments Pecuniary Mu●…cts Close Imprisonments and all sorts of Studied Defamations Nay If any man refuse to Subscribe their Confession of Faith Rule of Government and Manner of Worship He is forthwith Excommunicate and upon Remonstrance of a Commissioner from the Presbytery to the Civil Iudg a Warrant granted commanding him to Conform by a Day Certein or to be OUTLAWED If he Conform not within that time his ESTATE MOVE ABLE is FORFEITED and if not within a Year and a Day he Loses his whole REVENUE for his Life After This at the further Instance of the Churches Commissioner Out go Letters of Caption for Apprehending of his Person and Committing him as a Rebel And if he be not to be found These are follow'd with Letters of Inter-Communing forbidding all men either Personally to Confer with him or by Letter or interposed Person to Correspond with him upon Pein of the Inter-Communers being Iudged and Reputed a Rebel of the same Guiltiness As to the General Rule of Excommunication no Person Wife and Family excepted is to have any Communication with the Excommunicate be it in Eating or Drinking Buying or Selling Yea in Saluting or Talking with Him Unless at Commandment or License of the Ministry for his Conversion His Children Begotten and Born after That Sentence not to be admitted to Baptism till of Age to require it Unless the Mother or some special Friends Members of the Kirk Offer and Present the Child Damning the Iniquity and Contempt of the Impenitent There are that do not allow Husbands to accompany with their Wives in the State of Excommuni cation Now upon what has been deliver'd Let any Man Consider the Unchristian Rigor of This Disciplinary Inquisition not only in the Actual Tyranny of it but in the more Miserable Consequences First as it Scandalizes the Gospel and makes the Death of Christ seem to be no Effect by Imposing upon Us such Conditions of Salvation as if the Blessed Angels should descend and Indue Humane shapes they were