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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A19033	The plea for infants and elder people, concerning their baptisme, or, A processe of the passages between M. Iohn Smyth and Richard Clyfton wherein, first is proved, that the baptising of infants of beleevers, is an ordinance of God, secondly, that the rebaptising of such, as have been formerly baptised in the apostate churches of Christians, is utterly unlawful, also, the reasons and objects to the contrarie, answered : divided into two principal heads, I. Of the first position, concerning the baptising of infants, II. Of the second position, concerning the rebaptising of elder people.	Clyfton, Richard, d. 1616.	1610 (1610)	STC 5450; ESTC S1572	214,939	244

parents whose sinne can not * hinder Gods promise as the Lord did remember to shew mercy to those of Israel that “ left that apostate church and returned to Ierusalem as now he doth unto us And this is all that I alleaged ●his scripture for But you in a kind of bitternes and detestation of our forefathers do here againe utterly deny that ever they beleeved How religion came into our land I have shewed before that there have been are beleevers in it I make no question And whether there have been visible churches in the Apostolical constitution I leave to be confidered by the histories forenamed and the great persequutions they suffered for the truth of Christ And seeing there have been so many Martirs put to death in our nation for the witnessing of Iesus Christ his Gospel mynd well what wronge you do to your native countrie in denying that any of them did visiblie beleeve And of the church of Rome it is undeniable that it was a true established church in the Apostles dayes But you wonder at mee that I should say that seeing we are Apostates that we had auncestors that sometime beleeved and your reason is because we are departed from the scriptures not from the fayth of our Auncestors who never a one of them beleeved in a true constituted Church There cannot be an Apostasie or falling away from that we nor our fathers ever had If we apostate from the fayth of the scriptures eyther we or our fathers † 2 Thes 2. once beleeved that which we are departed from or els how is our standing apostasie But our fathers say you beleeved not in a true constituted church Indeed I think they did never beleev in such an heretical Church of Anabaptists as you account a true constituted Church that must have all the members received in by Anabaptisme their children excluded but this is certaine that the general face of a people stāding in apostasie doth argue that there was a face of a church before professing the fayth as in the examples of Israel and the church of Rome may be seen Thus through Gods providence and blessing I am come to an happie end of answering R●p your writing wherein I praise the Lord for his mercy I have received such assurance of the truth that all the earth shal never be able to wring it out of my hart and hands And therefore I desire you Sir and all the leaders of the Separati●● to weigh seriously even ●●twixt the Lord and their owne harts upon their bedds this which is written c. I am sory to see how you deceive your own hart in a false perswasion to Ans justifie your errors and most blasphemously as it were to make God a Patron thereof by praising him for his mercy that you have received such assurance of the truth that al the earth shal not be able to wring it out of your hart Whereas you are fallen from faith separating your self from the communion of all true Churches and become a pleader for a practiser of old concondemned heresies into which you are given over of God for iust cause knowen to himself And whereas you desire me and the Leaders of the Seperation as you cal them seriously to consider of your writings such counsel for myne owne part could I wish to your self to examine your writings by the Scriptures from the meaning whereof you have erred pitifully and to pray unto the Lord that this evil may be forgiven you And to remember wel how quickly you fell into these errours not conferring with others or counselling with the word of God as you should have done but following your owne deceitful and deceiving ha●● being strongly deluded by Sathan who stil doth incourage you in this new walking that you are perswaded it is th● undoubtedst truth that ever was revealed vnto you But know you Sir that the works of the flesh are pleasant wherof † heresie is one And 〈◊〉 5. 20. that Satan wil strongly perswade therevnto when the Lord hath given men over to beleeve lies that would not receive the love of the truth And as you confesse that you may err in particulars as you do indeed so think also that you may erre in your mayne points of controversie which were unheard of in the Apostolical Churches of the first age As you haue begunne to recall your baptising of your selfe as we heare in some respect vid videlicet in that you baptised your selfe and others without lawful calling c. so proceed to renounce it altogether with all your Anabaptistical errours And let me say to you in perswading you to returne unto the truth as you say to me in moving me to error As you love the Lord and his truth and the people that depend vpon you imbrace it and apply not your self to shift it of Think it a great mercy of God to offer you any meanes to see your erronious walking I speak unto you out of my best affection towards you and that poor deceaved company for whose fall I have great sorrow of hart And because you adjure vs in the Lord to shew you your errour I have done for myne own part what it hath pleased God to inable me for the present and so have others also taken paynes if God would give you an hart to be satisfied with the truth On the back syde of my answer was written thus If you reply shew your strength that we may make an end of these uncomfortable oppositions c. Mr Smyth Sir there may be weight in my Reasons and you happely eyther cannot through preiudice or wil not through some sinister respect see the waight of them I pray you be not charmed by evil counsel but eyther shew me myne error or yeeld to the truth I would be glad to be an instrument of shewing you this truth also at least you by shewing vs our error shall discharge a good conscience if you do not answere among you all I proclame you all subtilly blynd and lead the blynde after you into the ditche R. Clyfton Sir what small waight is in your Reasons I have shewed in this writing And though you think I can not through prejudice or will not through some sinister respect see the waight of them myne owne conscience doth cleere me of both these imputations For the Lord that knoweth the secrets of the hart is witnesse that I have not of purpose to mainteyne any untruth wittingly stopped myne eares or shut vp mine eyes from any truth revealed vnto me for any sinister cause or prejudice of your person but if I did see any further truth I would the Lord assisting me receive it with all thankfulnes Neyther do I hang my faith vpon the persons of men but upon the word of God to be charmed by evil counsel evil you call that which condemneth your errors but if by any man I receive further instructiō or cōfirmatiō in the Lords truth you ought not nor shall not diswade me frō it call it charming or what you wil. I would to God you were no worse charmed by the counsel of Satan then I am by those whom you point at in these your speeches I doubt not but we should then walk together comfortably in the house of God I have shewed you your error as you desire And for this truth as you falsely call it that you would be glad to impart unto me I dare not herein make you glad but wish rather that you might be sory that wee might reioyce in your conversion 〈◊〉 any former truthes whereof you have bene an instrument of myne 〈…〉 ction which you insinuate in this word also I am thankful to God for ●● But if you remēber that truth that you informed me of was concerning the trunesse of this Church wherof I stand a member which you now hold to be Antichristian And therefore if I had not had better ground for my practise and builded my faith herein vpon the word your revolting would haue sent me back againe to my former estate For your proclayming of vs all subtilly blind if we answer you not In this you shew stil the loftines of your spirit as if men were bound to answer you in every thing you write Now you are answered both to this and to your other heretical book of Differences c. And if you further oppose against the truth I trust the Lord will arme his Servants to contend for the faith once given to the Saincts Our cause is Gods we feare not your forces Rich. Clyfton FINIS 1610 Faults escaped Pag. 20. line 27. the Christ put out the. Pag. 21. line 3. for him read them Pag. 80. line 3. for kithin read within Pag. 130. line 18. for females read males Pag. 139. line 19. read be saved Pag. 173. line 14 how if put out how Pag. 149. line 4. for Rich Clifton read Mr Smyth and after line 6. read Rich Clifton Pag. 181. line 7. put out In Israel Pag. 187. line 20. for many read may Other faults may easily be discerned

that we may receive a ful reward And now unto him that is able to keep vs that we fall not to present vs faultlesse before the presence of his glorie with ioye To God onely our Saviour be glorie and Maiestie Dominion and power both now and ever Amen Richard Clifton AN ANSWER TO Mr SMYTHES Epistle to the Reader which he hath directed To every one that loveth the truth in sincerity BY these wordes it seemeth Mr Smyth would intimate that his care is to mainteyne the truth and that in sinceritie he loveth the same whereas in deed he hath destroyed the faith is become an enemy to the covenant of grace a perverter of the right wayes ●f the Lord and withall so confident in defence of his heresies that he ●●es to challendge a combate with all the Separation belike to feare men ●ith great words and to boast with Rabsake as if his forces were invin●ble But what they are it wil appeare in this discourse following In the Epistle it self first Mr Smyth seemeth to excuse their mutabilitie in Religiō saying It may be thought most strange that a man should oft times change ●s religion and it cannot be accounted a commendable qualitie in any man to make ●ny alterations c. this must needs be true and we confesse it if one condition be 〈…〉 itted that the Religion which a man changeth be the truth for otherwise to change 〈…〉 lse religion is commendable c. But Mr Smyth and his company have changed a true Religion for a ●alse and therefore that can be no commendable qualitie in them And ●uch inconstant persons as himself saith cannot escape the deserved imputation ●folly or weaknes of iudgement therein Thus out of his owne mouth pro●ouncing sentēce against himself For that alteratiō of him his cōpany ●s not frō falshood to truth but the leaving of the truth which formerly ●hey professed a taking up of error after error first calling into question whether the scriptures being translated into other tongues were not the writings of men Differenc pag. 10. Then casting the reading of them out of the worship of God affirming that there is no better warrant to bring translations of Scripture into the Church and to read them as parts and helps of worship then to bring in expositions paraphrasts and sermons vpon the Scripture seing all these are equally humane in respect of the worke equally divine in respect of the matter they handle Differ pag. 10. And for the same cause separated themselves from other Churches that did read and vse the same in their publike meetings After this they dissolved their Church which before vvas conioyned in the fellowship of the Gospel profession of the true fayth Mr. Smyth being Pastor thereof gave over his office as did also the Deacons and devised to enter a new communion by renouncing their former baptisme and taking upon them an other of mans invention bringing in an other Gospel besides that which was preached to Abraham Gen. 12 3 17. 7. c. Gal. 3 8. And now againe many of this new communion have separated themselves from the rest holding the error about the incarnation ●f this new ●aptised cō●union ●ere are re●ayning as ●is reported ●t above ● persons ●l the rest ●e runne in ● further ●rors of Christ An other sort are excommunicate namely M. Smyth divers with him for holding as it is reported by some that were of them that their new washed companie is no true church and that there cannot be in a church the administratiō of baptisme other ordinances of Christ without Officers contrarie to his former judgment practise writings yet resteth not but is inquiring after a new way of walking as the same persons affirme breeding more errors as is strongly suspected and by his manuscripts partly appeares Whereby it is manifest that these men can not cleare themselves of instabilitie changeablenes in Religion but are guilty of that inconstancie that is worthy reproof and damnable Further he sayth For a man of a Turke to become a Jew of a Iew a Papist of a Papist a Protestant are al commendable changes c. so that not to change religion is evil simplie therefore that we should fal from Puritanisme to Brownisme and from Brownisme to true christian baptisme is not simply evil in it self except it be proved that we have fallen from the true religion c. Here Mr. Smyth would make the world beleeve as it is the manner of al heretikes that their alterations were goings forward to further truthes and therefore commendable But if their true Christian baptisme whereof they boast prove a notable heresie as it is indeed in this Treatise is proved then his comparison holds not but rather their estate is like to those in 1 Tim. 1 19. that put away fayth a good conscience and as concerning fayth have made shipwrack And that bring in damnable heresies 2 Pet. 2. 1. c. denying the covenant of grace and the lawful use of the scriptures c. to bring upon themselves swift damnation if God give them not speedy repentance Next M. Smyth setts down the questions controverted and hereafter answered affirming that this controversie is between them and the Separation whereas he might as well have sayd betweene them and all christian churches that have been or are at this day for it is not we alone that ●ndemne these their heresies but both the ancient and moderne Chur●es and vvriters in all ages as vvith one consent have opposed against ●em But where he pretends the publishing of this controversy to be for the ●ay of God the manifesting of the truth to our owne nation and the destruction of ●man of sinne he geveth vs to mynd how Satan hath bewitched his soule ● beleeve that such can be the effects of his heritical opinions It is the ●ollicy of the Divil to propound glorious ends to such as he seduceth as ● Evah and others teacheth his Ministers to do the like that by fayre ●attring speeches and shewes of good they might more easily deceave the ●mple And therfore seing we are forwarned that there shal be false Teachers ●mongst vs which privily shal bring in damnable heresies it behoveth vs ●o mynd the counsel of the Apostles to try the spirits 1. Ioh. 4. 1. And not ●o be caryed about with every wynd of doctrine Ephe. 4. 14. Now happely sayth Mr. Smyth some man wil wish that the controversy had 〈◊〉 with the Rabbies of the Separation and not with Mr Clyfton whome they ca 〈…〉 iate to be a weake man vnable to deale in so great a controversy wel let the Reader take notice that though it be Mr Clyftons pen yet it is not onely Mr Clyftons 〈…〉 se def●nce but his allegatiōs Reasons are the best plea of the greatest Rabbies thē●elves And if they can say better they may now speake for by publishing answere to

then I hope it cannot be denyed but so it is lawfull to do for other ordinances also Touching the error of the Incarnation of Christ which also Mr. Smyth desyreth may not be imputed vnto them It is wel knowne that many of theire company holding that error about the incarnation are separated from the rest And Mr. Smyth him selfe as some amongst them have reported maketh a question about the first matter of Christs humane nature as if it were not a poynt of fayth to beleeve that it was of the virgin though it be to be beleeved that the second matter was nourished in her womb Whether his hearers do wrong him in such reports or how he resteth satisfied it is best knowen to himselfe And be it that he stand cleere of this error yet is be taynted with the errors of general redemption and free wil els why hath he given forth these Positions 1. Christs Redemption strecheth to all men 2. Man hath not lost the facultie of willing any good thing that is shewed him And with all added therevnto his Reasons in defence thereof Now let the Reader judge what cause he had to desire that these things should not be imputed vnto them Lastly Mr. Smyth taketh upon him to advertise our Church saying Let the Separation be advertised that whereas they do so cōfidently through theire selfe-love self conceat fil their mouthes with heresie and hereticks as therby they would feare Babes that therein they tread in the steps of all the Antichristians their predecessors c. For this his advertisment if any have spoken otherwise then is meete I am no Patrone of any such speeches but if it was lawful for Iohn to call the Phariseis Generatiō of vipers And Paul to say to Elimas Oh ful of subtilty all mischeiffe c. then is it not simply vnlawfull to vse such speeches so it be for reproofe and not for reproche Therefore to call them hereticks and their opinions heresies it being true and spoken in detestation of their errors not of their persons I see no evil in so saying see these places Io. 8. 44. 2. Pet. 2. 1. 2. 1. Io. 2. 18. Act. 13. 10. Gal. 3. 1. Rev. 2. 6. 15. And if this be a fault in vs why doth Mr. Smyth fil his mouth with Antichristian errors so calling those truthes which we hold Hath he a dispensation so to speake agaynst the truth and yet to blame vs for calling their false doctrynes heresy I should rather have thought that he ought to have advertised himselfe for these reprochful sclanderous speaches that he hath vttered agaynst our Church the Teachers thereof calling them † Char●● Epistle the Re● Rabbies of the Separation The greatest Rabbies And thus speaking to the Church Be it knowen to the Separation that we account them in respect of their constitution as very an harlot as eyther her mother England or her Grandmother Rome We protest agaynst her as wel for her false constitution as for her false Ministery worship and Goverment I could wish as the Tyrant wished Concerning the people of Rome that all their heads were joyned into one We desire the Separation they wil not in craftines withdrawe from the Combate We require them nay we charge them yea we chalendg them to the defence of their errors We protest agaynst them to be a false Church They treade in the steps of all the Antichristians their Predecessors Let them take heed that notwithstanding their Syrenes songs they prove not Cages full of most vgly and deformed Antichristian Hereticks All these reprochfull speeches if not more hath he published in lesse then a sheete of paper besydes what are contayned in his Book And yet notwithstanding all these speaches have thus passed from him he takes vpon him to advertise vs for that we can justifie against his doctrines against themselves for their obstinate defending of their errors But where he chargeth vs to call them Heretikes their doctrines heresie through self love and self conceatednes c. If he had applyed self love and conceipt to him self I take it he might more justly have done it if we may judge by his words As for selfe love and selfe cōceipt we condemne in whomsoever And howsoever we have our infirmities I trust he shalnot be able to tax any of vs iustly of these imputations And as Mr. Smyth wisheth us not to be wyse in our owne eies through pryde c. we hope the Lord wil so teach vs. And we pray the Lord to geve him a sight of his damnable heresies whereinto he is fallen openly sinning in the publishing thereof to the great dishonor of God and greiffe of al the godly and that the almighty may preserve all that are his chosen from being poysoned with the same Richard Clyfton THE PROCESSE OF THE PASSAGES between Mr Iohn Smyth and Richard Clifton Mr Smyth CERTAINE REASONS PROPOVNDED To Mr Rich. Clifton concerning the two Propositions following 1. That infants are not to be baptised 1. Because there is neither precept nor example in the new Testament of any infants that were baptised by Iohn or Christs Disciples Only they that did confesse their sinnes and confesse their Faith were baptized Marc. 1. 4. 5. Act. 8. 37. 2. Bicause Christ commaundeth to make Disciples by teaching them and then to baptize thē Mat. 28 19. Ioh. 4. 1. but infants cannot by doctryne become Christs Disciples and so cannot by the rule of Christ be baptized 3. Bicause if infants be baptized the carnal seed is baptized and so the seale of the covenant is administred to them vnto whom the covenant apperteyneth not Rom 9. 8. which is a profanation 2. That Antichristians converted are to be admited into the true Church by Baptisme 1. Bicause Churches are so to be constituted now after the defection of Antichrist as they were first erected by the Apostles But in the constitution of Churches the Apostles received in the members by baptisme go So must wee doe now 2. Bicause true baptisme is but one but the baptisme of Antichrist is not true baptisme and so not that one baptisme of Christ but all members of Christ must have true baptisme 3. Because as the false Church is rejected and the true erected the false Ministery forsaken and the true received So false worship and by consequent baptisme must ●e renounced and the true baptisme assumed Richard Clifton AN ANSVVER TO TVVO ANABAPTISTICALL OPINIONS vid videlicet 1. That Infants are not to be baptized 2. That Antichristians converted are to be admitted into the true Church by baptisme ALthough with great sorrow I am forced to vndertake this busynes against him that was deere vnto me yet being therevnto provoked by the sending to me these two Positions with certayne reasons annexed vnder the Authours owne hand I thought it my part although the vnablest of many to contend for the maintenance of the faith which was once given to the Saints Iud. 3. And by the

to Baptisme by reason of the fayth Repl. of some of their Auncestors that were faythful then are they the true matter of the visible church c. We do not say that the Infants of the church of Rome have tytle to An. Baptisme by reason of their Ancestors fayth but do afferme that in respect of that Apostatical standing neither infants nor their parents have right to any of Gods ordinances neither is it inough that people be elected and thereby to have right to Gods covenant c. before God but to be members of the visible church and partakers of the holy things there must be a * Rev. 18. 4 visible going out of Babylon “ 2 Cor. 6. ●6 f●r what agreement hath the Temple of God with Idols the vessels of the Lord must be caried out to Ierusalem then are they in their due place and shal have their true vse which in their Romish standing they could not have albeit in Babylon they were the vessels of the Lord. And herein are you deceived that if any of the ordinances of God be reteyned in the hands of Autichristians these ordinances must eyther make them a true visible Church or be none of his and when they are brought out thence have no vse These thing may also answer that which followes For upon this that we deny Baptisme administred in Poperie to be iterated you would conclude these absurdities to follow viz. That infants of the Church of Rome are a true visible Ch in the cōstitutiō essential Repl. causes therof That the Church in the new testamēt cōmeth by successiō of carnal genealogie through the church of Rome to our dayes That the matter of the church viz. Infants descending of baptised parents is by genealogie the form of the Church viz. baptism vpon those infants is by descent and therefore the Church is by succession I demaund why may not the Ministerie be by succession as wel as the Church and England and Rome true Churches their Ministery true c. To all which particulars I answer thus 1. Infants may be members Ans of a visible Church but that a visible Church can stand of infants onely we deny 2. Neyther Infants nor the elder sort standing in Antichristianism can be the matter of a true visible Church being so looked vpon according to that estate and respect 3. Baptisme which you would have the form hath his true use in the visible Church of Christ and to Gods people 4. let the people of God in Babylon and the Baptisme that there they receive be compared with Gods people in the apostate Church of Israel with their circumcision And it will appeare that the infants of the Church of Rome are not a true visible Church in the essential causes therof any more or otherwise then as they were in Israel Cōcerning the Churches successiō by carnal genealogie I answer that as the covenāt was made with Abrahā and his seed so vnder the Gospell doth the promise belong to the parents their childrē And that God had “ Apoc. 14. 4. his people in all the tymes of Popery that were within his covenant Neyther is this to hold succession of visible Churches but to vse your terme a succession of true beleevers in all ages though not alwayes known in publick it being the lot of the † Rev. 1. 13. 14. Church to be persequuted by the Dragon and driven to flee into the wildernes for a time times half a time And therefore seing the matter of the visible Church is not alwayes nor otherwise seen to descend from baptised persos by genealogie then as it did from parents circumcised in Israel there can be no other succession visible of the Church or Ministerie then is incident to such estate but as in Israel there was * a breaking off of both so hath King 12 33. ●ev 11. 7. 12. 14. ● 13. 7. 8. it fallen out under the new Testament a † surceasing of succession of true visible Churches and of the true Ministerie in the apostasie of Antichrist And this may satisfie you why we may not returne back againe to churches continuing in Apostasie But where you say you hear some are mynded to take up their former ministerie and returne back againe into England You should have done wel eyther to have forewarned such if you knew in them a purpose to sinne els not so easily to have received the report thereof to make it publike and so to cause suspition to arise against any brother undeservedly For myne own part I know none of the church to have any such thoughts If any that have left the fayth as you have done and departed from the church or for their sinne justly cast out so do purpose what is that to us look to it your selves And truly for my part I hold it as lawful to retayne the church and Ministerie of England as to retayne the baptisme and when I shal yeeld to the truth of the baptisme of England I wil yeeld to the truth of the Church Ministerie of England c. It may be you speak truer of your estate then you think But whatsoever Ans your perswasion is I mynd a difference to be put between baptisme administred in churches standing in Apostasie and the constitution and ministerie of these churches For baptisme being the ordinance of God may not be repeated as before is proved but those Assemblies that consist of confused multitudes and are not set in the wayes of God that have a false Ministerie and worship we have a speciall commandement * to separate Rev. 18. 4 Cor. 6. 17. from as we have from al corruptions of Gods ordinances but in no scripture to reject the ordinances themselves for any pollution that is upon them Now it is further to be remembred that we in retayning baptisme do not retayn the corruptions wherewith it was administred but that which is of God therein Neyther do we hold it lawful for them that are come out of Babylon to returne thither to fetch Baptisme And to make this difference to appeare more playnly Let be considered the example of those Israelites that returned to Ierusalem who cast not of theire circumcision yet might they not iustify for true that apostate Church or Ministery from which they did separate or continue in the cōmunion thereof without sinne But because I know the Ministerie and Church of England is false therefore it must needs be that Baptisme which is the forme of the Church essentially c. Repl. For the Ministerie of the Church of England whether it be true or false Ans is not the thing controverted between you and me but that baptisme in an apostate Church is false essentially I deny and your self confesseth * Char● pag. 35. that if it be administred by Antichrist to such as confesse their faith and sinnes it were true and not to be repeated which

your nevv devysed baptisme have rejected the seal of GODS Covenant and consequently the covenaunt it self and so the Author of it And as IEROBOAM † forged the eight moneth out of his owne hart for to keep a feast unto ●in 12. the Lord so have you forged a church of your own invention and the receiving in of members into it And that which you would impute unto ●v 22. ● us is fallen upon your selves even that * woe for adding to the word Secondly I affirme that as the holy Ghost sayth the Antichristians are in condition equal to Pagans not called Israelites or Samaritanes but Babylonians Aegyptians Sodomites Gentiles But the holy Ghost knoweth what and how to speak And therefore as the Babylonians Aegyptians Sodomites and Gentiles washings were nothing no more is the Baptisme of Antichristians any thing c. I have Answered to this before pag. 150. 151. And shewed that the Iewes which were called the people of “ Gomorah and their Rulers the Princes of Sodome should then stand in the same estate with Pagans and 〈◊〉 10. in condition be equal unto them and their circumcision voyd if the holy Ghost in so terming them did mynd as you doe This is a strange kind of reasoning that because the Antichristians resemble the Gentiles in some filthie practises for the which the spirit calls them Sodomites c. therefore their condition in al respects is as theirs Christ called Peter Sathan shal we thereupon conclude that therefore Peter was as Sathan in al respects because in his counseling his master to favour himself he was like him Of Iudah it is sayd that she was more † corrupt in al her wayes then Samaria and Sodome shal we say because the Lord thus speaketh that Iudah was now to be recircumcised If the holy Ghost calling the Antichristians Sodomites c. should teach us thereby that he esteemeth no otherwise of the church and Baptisme then of the Synagogues of Babylon the washings of Aegypt then of the worship of Sodome and the Pagans as you say then must he needs teach us the like to esteeme of the churches of the Iewes and of the circumcision when he calls them the people of Gomorrah and more corrupt in her wayes then Sodome as before I have observed For your comparison of the Gentiles washings with the baptisme of Antichristians affirming that as the former were nothing no more is the other This is not to compare things alike for the washings of the Gentiles were of mans invention and baptisme is the ordinance of Christ And therefore it wil not follow that because mens devises are nothing when any of thē turne to God that baptisme also God ordinance prophaned in Popery is therefore nothing when any such Apostates repent and returne to Sion No more is this a good reason to prove that the Holy Ghost did fore see that the Antichristians would abolish true baptisme by baptising Infants because he calleth persons Apostating Babylonians Sodomites Gentiles Thirdly whereas you say that repayring the Church now after the Apostasie of R●pl Antichrist is a fitter speech then constituting herein do you both tax your selves of the vse of that word constitution and playnly signifie that you incline to maintain the Churches of England or Rome to be true churches wherein whether you do not forsake your first fayth and turn with the dogge to the vomite look you unto it c. If it had pleased you to have taken my whole answer you had neither Ans cause to have excepted against the word repayring nor yet have gathered thereby any inclination in us to maintayn any thing that is corrupt eyther in the churches of England or Rome much lesse as you say to forsake our first fayth and turne with the dogge to the vomite But you that thus speak it were good to take heed you be not the dogge that vomits out your blaspemous errors to the dishonour of God and offence of his people If the word of repayring had been so faulty you had done better to have manifested the untrunes thereof then to have bewrayed your evill thoughts in the unjust censuring of others But concerning repayring or reforming let the indifferent Reader judge if it be not more proper to us then to constitute or plant for who knoweth not that there is but one constitution or planting of the church under the Gospel which is founded by the Apostles And other forme or frame can no earthly power devyse then that which the Apostles have left us And seing at the first they did constitute churches in divers partes of the world and those churches ruinated by Antichrist shal not the restoring of them to the first patterne of the Apostles be properly called a repairing seing they did not cease utterly to be no churches but are churches in corruption or ruine But I wil not contend about words for that which I strive for is to have the church in that forme as the word prescribeth both for people worship goverment and what els appertaynes thereunto Fourthly I say that the Iewes that were converted to the sayth new Testament Rep. of Christ by Christ Iohn and the Apostles in your account were in a farre better estate then Antichristians for they as you say were of the same body with the church of the new Testament and their circumcision was a seal of the new Testament as you say and they were in Christ Iesus as you say and were washed I doubt not many of them into the Messiah c. and why might not they by Iohn Christ or his Apostles be admitted into the church without baptisme If therefore Christ Iohn and the Apostles would needs baptise them and so by baptisme constitute them into the new Testament that had al these prerogatives in your iudgment much more wil they have us to constitute Antichristians converted into the true church by baptisme This your reason is alike the rest nothing good for albeit that the Ch. ●ns of the Iewes was a true church yet had it not Christ exhibited in the flesh afore this tyme wherefore it was meet seing the Priesthood and ceremonial administration of that Church was changed and the † old was to cease ●eb 8. 13 that the Iewes as wel as the Gentiles should be partakers thereof alike that therby they might acknowledge Christ their Messiah to be come whō they looked for And as it was required of the mēbers of the old Church that they should * beleeve in the Messiah to come So was fayth “ required ●en 15. 6 ●m 4. 11. ●k 2. 25. ●or 10. 3. of them that should be admitted into the church of the Gospell wherein both Iewes Gentiles should be alike received baptissd into his name As for the Apostate church of Antichrist it is such a one as acknowledgeth Iesus Christ to be come professeth the Gospel though corruptly And baptisme received in the Apostate church hath

his wife and as a wife in one respect so an heire in an other as here the Apostle calls that church And surely she could not be called an heire if she had not title to an inheritance and this then must be by covenant Besides the church of Israel was able and did covenant with the Lord You labour to chayn up the Lords grace and to bynde him that he cannot promise good to the children of the faythful or save them in Christ except they do actually by voyce and words of their own speaking stipulate or cōtract with the Lord the contrarie † Deu. 2● 10. 15. A● 2. 39. is witnessed by the holy Ghost 3. The Lord did never appoint that baptisme should seal up his new Tectament Rep. to infants Of this I have spoken before throughout the first treatise Ans And for your selves you hold that baptism sealeth up the covenant neither to yong nor old and therefore you might wel have spared this particular As for that which followes or that infants should by his baptisme be admitted in to the body of Antichrist c. I grant not into the body of Antichrist for Antichrist hath no right to any of the ordinances of God but the questiō is not what he hath right unto but whether the Lords ordinance is to be rejected together with the pollution thereof The Lord did not appoint that Belsha●her his princes wyves and concubines should drink in the vessels of the Temple or them to be caried into Babylō but * Dan. 5. 2 3. 4. they being there prophaned yet were “ Ezr. 1. 8. 11 caried out thence served for the use of the Temple And so do we hold of baptisme of the scriptures rejecting the corruptions that did cleave unto them in Poperie and applying them with their right use to our selves But the end of Christs baptisme is to manifest visibly that the partie confessing his Rep. sinne is sealed by the spirit unto the day of redemption that he hath visibly put on Christ that he is mortified crucified risen againe c. Rom. 6. 1. 6. Col. 2. 12. Gal. 3. 27. These ends of baptisme I deny not but we must not deprive infants of this grace neither exclude that Ans● special end of baptisme to wit the sealing up unto us the pomise of God which is the thing you can not away with I know the true beleevers ar sealed with the spirit a seal invisible so were the godly under the old Test al that are the Lords are in Christ have his spirit dwelling in them els could they not be his And it is true also that the promise of the spirit hinders not the outward meanes which God hath sanctified for the begetting and increasing of our fayth for he worketh together with them Seeing therefore the matter forme and end of baptisme in the false church is from man even from Antichrist therefore the Lord is not the Author of this baptisme but the baptisme is Antichrists wholly And although he useth the words In nomine patris filij spiritus sancti Amen as the Papists do in sprinkling holy water in baptising of their belles as coniurers do in their charmes yet this can not make true baptisme c. How untrue that is which you speak of Baptisme in Poperie as being ●●s from Antichrist and not from Iesus Christ for the matter c. I have shewed before The Papists when they baptise children do intend to administer baptisme and do baptise them into the name of Christ and not into the name of the Pope And though they do in the use of this holy ordinance adde a number of superstitious ceremonies and observations withal yet keep they the forme * set downe by Christ without devising a new And Mat. 2● therefore it is not true to say that baptisme is Antichrists wholly The abusing of the name of God by papists or conjurers in their baptising of bells and conjurations c. is their sinne which we leave unto them selves the ordinance of God we retayn which we know their abuse cannot annihilate And though you except these words In nomine patris c. have been prophaned by the Papists As much may be sayd of the scriptures And if prophanation be a cause sufficient to reject baptisme then by lyke reason may the scriptures be cast away And this also you are in a reasonable forewardnes for no translated scriptures must come in your worship yet for some uses you are contented to receive the scriptures though they have been prophaned but baptisme for no use at all because say you it is essentially corrupted in matter and forme and use yet not another matter forme and use your self hath confessed † That if Antichrist had baptised persons confessing ●haracter ●g 53. their sinnes and fayth into the Trinitie it should not have been repeated So that all this florish that you make about the essential corruption in matter forme and use stands in this that you hold that infants are not capable of baptisme which is proved already against you Againe these corruptions in or about the matter and forme of baptisme are accidental and not the changing of the matter forme and end as before is shewed Furthermore whereas I sayd that the Israelites in their Apostasie were a false church you answer If so you understand a false church Rep● viz. meetings or companies of men assembled together in a wrong place to a wrong worship to a wrong Priesthood I yeeld Israel to be a false church but I deny that to be the true definition of a false church c. By a false church I understand a church apostate neither do I describe Answ a false or an apostate Church as in the first place you set downe but such a church I hold to be in apostasie that hath † 2 The. ● 1 Tim. 4. fallen from the fayth and waye of Christ * Hos 2. broken covenant with God and “ 2 Chr. 12. 11. forsaken him † 2 Chro. 9. 1 Kin. 28. 33. 14. 9. that erects a new fellowship amongst themselves of their own invention and worship God by the hands of false Ministers with false worship c. This was the state of Israel which came to be without the “ 2 Chr. 1● 3. true God c. and therefore she was a church in apostasie and not the true * Hos 2. ● wi●e of the Lord. That false is contrarie to true I graunt but in that sense I never intended to cal Israel a false church as having nothing that belonged to the true church in it no more is Antichrists such a one Yet the having of some of Gods holy things in them in a corrupt manner cannot make them true churches ches Here you indeavour to prove Israel a false church c. A true church is discerned in the true causes essential and so a false church by

the want of those true causes essential Repl. the true essential causes of the church of the old Testament was the posteritie of Abraham or proselyte circumcised the want of those things onely made a false church c. If this be the true definition of the church under the old Testament Ans then what would let that the Ismaelites and Edomites being circumcised were not true churches they were of the posteritie of Abraham as all do know That Israel was an Apostate church is before proved and by you confessed As to your essential causes of this church your carnal covenant which is the ground of your definitiō you may receive answer before pag. 12. c. And this more 1. That the Israelites and proselytes were a true church so long as they walked in the wayes of God but apostating the Lord did cal them an harlot Hos 2 2. 2. If these be the essential causes of that church as you have set down then the want thereof makes them not a false church as you say but no Church Lastly you bring us in a double respect or consideration of members of the church Repl. of Antichrist c. I answere divers things 1. I do not deny but that men may be considered two wayes visibly as members of Antichrist body invisibly as pertayning to the Lords election and that is the meaning of the Apostle Rom. 11. 28. but I deny that hence it followeth that when they came from their invisible being in Christ to a visible being in the true visible Church they shal enter in any waye but by the dore which is baptism First you graunt a duble consideration may be had of members of Antichrists Church but not altogether in the same sence as I did propound it The members of an apostate Ch. though in respect of their outward standing they have no right to the holy things of God yet as touching the election of God divers of them may belong vnto him whom he knoweth for his people and calleth them out of Babylon when and as it pleaseth him even as that speach doth shew vnto vs which sayth come out of her my people c. Rev. 18. 4. God for his promise sake made to Abraham Isaac and Iacob did extend his love to their seed and posteritie to save so many of them as he had * elected And when Israel fel into apostasie did remember Rom. 11. ●-5 this his promise and called thence such as he had chosen to witnes his truth and gave them to separate from their false wayes and to returne to Ierusalem Also the Lord having graffed the Gentiles in and † made them partakers of the roote and fatnes of the Olive tree vouchsafeth Rom. 11. 7. his grace to them and their posteritie But their apostasie he hateth as he did that of the Israelites And yet notwithstanding he hath his people Rom. 11. 8. in Babylon whom he calleth out to confesse his name for the covenant is given to the beleeving Gentiles as it was formerly to the Israelites and is no more extinguished in the apostasie of Antichrist then in the apostasie of Israel And as for the meaning of Rom. 11. 28. I take to be this that wheras 〈◊〉 11. 28 question might be made of the saving of the Iewes they being now enemies c. Paul granteth that they are enemies in one respect to wit of the Gospel which now they received not yet that in an other respect they are beloved of God to wit for his election and promise made to the fathers so as through the grace of his covenant by which he had chosen that people to himself Israel shal be called and ingraffed agayne and saved from their sinnes c. But that promise was to their fathers and their seed and this ingraffing agayne of the Iewes shal be into that estate from which now they are fallen and which before time their fathers were partakers off As concerning baptisme I do not read that it is called the doore of * Ro● 3-4 3. 27. the Church the scripture hath these phrases Baptised into Christ baptised into his death and such like Notwithstanding in some sense it may be called the doore because it sealed vnto vs Christ who is the doore and for that it is the first-ordinance that eyther such as came to the Church or that are borne in the Church are made partakers of Whereas you intimate that a man being invisibly elect and having Title to the Re. covenant may therevpon 1. visibly enter into the false Church by false baptism and then vpon his repentance come to the true Church and enter thereinto not by baptism but that the dore of Antichrist shall open him the way into the Church of Christ Ans c. I answere 1. do not your selfe intimate thus much concerning such as being of yeares and makes themselves profession are baptised into Antichrists Apostacy 2. My spech was of such of Gods people as are borne † Carra● pag. 52. in Babylon which your selfe calles * members of a false Church 3. Baptism that is retayned in the Apostate Church of Antichrist is not false in that sense as you so call it but is the ordinance of Christ there poluted as formerly I have shewed 4. Gods people comming out of Babylon do no more enter into the true Church without baptisme then those his people that separated from the apostasie of Israel came to Ierusalem without circumcision otherwise I do not intimate or speak Whereas I say you intimate so much you teach contrary to Christ who sayth we Re. must go in by the dore c. and that we must first be taught and made disciples and then be baptised c. The doore is * Joh. 10. ● Christ by whome if any man enter in he shal be saved An. And to be baptised first after instructed is not cōtrary to Christs cōmandemēt The words of Christ you wrest frō the true meaning therof to thrust infants out of the covenant and from baptisme and so your self is guilty of teaching contrary to Christ as formerly I have proved and you might aswel deny Baptisme to women by that Scripture Mat. 28. 19. as to infants for Christ sayth Baptise them vsing the masculine gender and not the feminine Secondly I say that no man is under the covenant or under baptisme for the parents sake and that is not the meaning of the Apostle Rom. 11. 28. but his meaning is that the elect of the Israelites are beloved for the promise of God made to Abraham Isaac and Jaoob in respect of Chrict This place of Rom. 11. 28. I have before expounded Pag. 218. And that any is beloved for their parents sake otherwise then in respect of gods free promise made vnto them and their seed I meane not Yet if we consider the Lords dispensation of his covenant according to his grace of chosing a people to himself of