Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	church_n	communion_n	separate_v	1,943	5	9.5273	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88105	Light for smoke: or, A cleare and distinct reply by Iohn Ley, one of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster, to a darke and confused answer in a booke made, and intituled The smoke in the temple, by Iohn Saltmarsh, late preacher at Brasteed in Kent, now revolted both from his pastorall calling and charge. Whereto is added, Novello-mastix, or a scourge for a scurrilous news-monger.	Ley, John, 1583-1662.; C. D. Novello-mastix.	1646 (1646)	Wing L1883; Thomason E333_2; Thomason E333_3; ESTC R200742	90,377	128

power upon them as to appoint them to punish any one nor if they doe punish accompt them Deputies to any but doers of their own worke Nay who is the Satan to whom the excommunicate are delivered The Magistrate as you imply and impose that reproach upon Presbyterians For you say it is an expression not farre beside your principles and who disparages the Magistrate in that But stay good Sir what Presbyterians expound those words of delivery unto Satan 1 Corinth 5.5 1 Tim. 1.20 with an application to the Magistrate neither Calvin Beza Marl●rat Piscator Deodate nor d In his late Booke against Erastus cap. 11. q. 7. pag. 354 355. Mr. Rutherford nor any Presbyterian that ever I read make the Magistrate the Devill in these Texts no nor Vatablus nor Aquinas of the Popish Church and I thinke it will be hard for you to finde any Authour of note of what Religion so ever that so takes or rather mis-takes the words as you doe and impossible to produce any Presbyterian principles which with any colour or probabilitie may be drawn or by any violence and importunitie be drag'd to such a sense of disparagement of the Magistrate as you have suggested and so the calumny and contempt of their calling must be laid at your doore to father it as an ill-favoured brat of your own begetting SECT XXV The Magistrates assistance to the Ecclesiasticall Government no argument to prove it no Gospel Government the sword of God and of Gideon of Church Discipline and civill severitie how lawfull and usefull zeale against toleration of evill commended connivence at it blameable Smoke Pag. 57. YOu say you cannot divide discipline from his assistance who can make it effectuall that is from the Magistrate this is a signe without further argument that you doe not hold your government for Christs because it cannot be effectuall of it selfe without helpe below Light Here as in many other places you shew little ingenuitie in repeating my words which are not as you cite them but thus e Examination of the New Quere Sect. 12. pag. 42. We cannot thinke it meet to divide subservient meanes from the supreme power nor the exercise of Discipline and government from his Assistance who can make it effectuall that is say you from the Magistrate and that is say I your maledicta glossa which corrupts the Text my words import not the inferiour efficacy of the Magistrate but the superiour of God and therefore your inference upon it is a second injury and violence you commit against my saying and sence and yet though the Discipline be Christs we must crave the consent and sanction of the Civill Magistrates that we may put it in practice as the Presbyterians of the Dutch and French Churches in London and with their assistance it may be more effectuall then without it it can be as the Magistrates antheritie may have a more awfull operation upon the people if assisted by the Ministers in their Sermons and popular exhortations and yet you will not deny but that Magistracy is the ordinance of God Rom. 13.1 Smoke Pag. 57. Nor is the sword of God and Gideon any faire or iust proofe for ioyning Presbytery and Magistracy it onely ioynes God and the Magistrates Light I joyne the sword of God and Gideon not as a proofe for uniting Presbytery and Magistracy but as an illustration of association of different meanes to the same end or of concurrent operations to the same purpose and yet if the cause of God in the hands of the Presbytery doe need and have aide in the hand of the Magistrate to help it forward there the sword of the Spirit which is the sword of the Lord in the mouth of his Ministers and the sword of Gideon that is the sword of the Magistrate may be said to be joyned Smoke Pag. 57. You say your godly it alousie will set up as many securities as may be But then they are warrantable and Gospel wayes of securitie that is no godly iealousie which sets up other wayes as Herod killing all the young children to secure his kingdome David dissembling to escape Iacob to get a blessing Light To that you said f New Quere pag. 8. It is the Papists and Prolates iealousie to keep up their supposed truths by suspecting every thing that appeares for an enemy My Answer was g Examination of the New Quere Sect. 12. pag. 42. There is a iealousie which the Apostle cal● godly iealousie and such a one is that which would set up as many securities as may be against heresie and impiety among them Church-government is one of which they that stand for it are not afraid to let it go● abread but have made it publique and exposed it to the view of all eyes To this you put in a Reply with a condition of warrantable and Gospel wayes of securitie and an exception of wicked wayes such as Herods killing all the young children c. I instanced onely in the Church-government which the Presbyterians propound and plead for as a Gospel way you bring in Herods bloody businesse as if there were neere consanguinitie betwixt the Presbytery and his barbarous crueltie this is though not to slay innocents as he did yet to wound and blast innocence as much as may be and to bring it under an evill suspicion to make it odious this is no Gospel way Mr. Sa●●m but a very wide aberration from it Smoke Pag. 57. You say that some feare Gods anger for communion with heretiques c. you know all such feare is onely warrantable in the Church not in the world you have liberate to withdraw and separate as they from you if it be nationall or civill communion then you plucke up the tares before the time of harvest Light You still give me cause to complaine of your unfaithfull dealing with my words by such alteration or omission of them as may make them more obvious to your exception then as I set them downe for they are thus in my Booke a Exam. of the New Quere Sect. 12. p. 43. But there is it feare which we professe and I hope without offence it is a feare of Gods anger and of imminent danger for communion with and connivence towards hereticall and wicked men and I brought examples and sayings of John the Evangelist of Polycarpe Hilary and Ierome to that purpose which you take no notice of at all but say such feare is onely warrantable in the Church not in the world but for that there is a remedy that men may separate from Church-Communion but what if many will not as the weaker and looser sort are as ready to runne to hereticall Teachers where they exercise as the people of Israel to the Idolamous worship of the golden Calves and shall such be suffered to 〈◊〉 them that through the ignorance of their minds or unrulinesse of then lusts are willing to be seduced Will your conscience with the Papists tolerate the

diverse and we may bee friends though not Brethren If we be in one Christ I should rather say we are Brethren though not friends but if we be friends and in Christ we must needs be Brethren sonnes of the same Father and heires of the same hope and inheritance in heaven although not knowing or suspecting each others interest wee may bee more unfriendly among our selves then we should be And though you be lesse a Brother then you have been for as I heare you acknowleldged before the Honourable Committee of Examinations that you have renounced your Ordination the ground of your Ministeriall Brotherhood in the Church of England yet since you are pleased to call me both b So in the inscription of your Letter Friend and c In your Smoke p. 26. Brother I shall with much hearty sorrow to see your good parts so ill imployed as they are on the wrong side and my fervent prayers to the Father of lights to give you light for smoke to guide you into the way of Truth and Peace and to settle you in it sincerely subscribe my selfe Yours in the affections and offices of a friend and Brother JOHN LEY LIGHT FOR SMOKE OR A Cleare and distinct Reply to a darke and confused Answer of Mr. Iohn Saltmarsh c. SECT I. Of the Title Independent in what sence it is disclaimed in what acknoweldged and of subordination idenied by Mr. S. and puritie in the Church held necessary by him Smoke Pag. a In the former edition the answer to me beginneth a new order of figures so this quotation is p. 2. but in the second edition it is p. 12. 12. FOr the notion of Independencie you speake of I dare not owne it because I account my selfe both under a spirituall and civill supremacie under Jesus Christ and the Magistrate severally and exempt from neither Light Your pretended dependencie on the Magistracie will not exempt you from the name or notion of Independencie a title diversly entertained by the Anti-Presbyteriall party while some own and honour it some disclaime and abhor it b Mien Exam of the New Quere p. 2. as I have formerly shewed for you give the Magistrate so little power in matter of Religion that c Smoke p. 62. 63. you would have all left to a libertie of conscience science therein cnceiving that as d M. SAltm Epistle to the Beleevers of severall opinions p. 1. though the wayes be divers to the Citie of London some travelling from the North some from the South some from the East and some from the West yet all come thither though there may be some mistaking of the way in each so is the gathering of the Saints into heaven Which if you meane of so many several Sects of beleevers as in this Booke and some other of your Pamphlets you plead for you meane it of some who are as farre out of the way to heaven as if a man at Lichfield should travell not Soth-ward but North-ward to goe to London or as if at Barwicke he should travell not North-ward but South-ward to come to Edenborough Smoke Pag. 12. We dare not be Classicall Provinciall Nationall these are no formes of wholesome words to which we are commended nor know we any such power but that of Brethren Ministerie and Fellowship and if you call the Churches of Christ Independent for this we must suffer till the Lord bring forth our righteousnesse as the noone-day Light The graduall subordination of Assemblies against the Independencie of Congregationall meetings is made good by the large and learned Booke of Mr. Samuel Rutherford so that it is needlesse to take up their defence in this place at least with you who as I have observed your genius are not fit to be taken for an Antagonist in any Polemicall point And for that you say they are no formes of wholesome words it is no more then the Arians said of the words Trinitas Essentia Hemoeusios Persona because they found them not in the Scripture And if you were not swayed by a spirit of Libertinisme you would thinke them very wholsome words as signifying soveraigne remedies against the ruptures of Schisme and uleers or gangrenes of Heresie Smoke Pag. 12. Nor know we any such power but that of Brethren Ministers and Fellowship Light Doe you not know Sr. that that which is Ministerie and service in respect of God may be rulel and authoritie in respect of men are there not Officers in the Church called Elders and are not those Elders Rulers and those Elders and Rulers Fathers and is there not a spirituall fatherhood and begetting through the Gospel 1 Cor. 4.15 and must not these by the fifth Commandement be honoured and obeyed under that Title above the relation of Brotherhood and Fellowship and are there not children in the Church as well as Fathers and may not the father as the child gives him cause use both the rod and the spirit of meeknesse if not surely the Apostle would not have put this Question to the Corinthians Shall I come unto you with a rod or in love and in the spirit of meeknesse vers 21. of the same Chapter Smoke Pag. 12. And if you call the Churches of Christ Independent for this wee must suffer untill the Lord bring forth our righteousnesse as the noon-day Light If I were worthy to give a Name to the Churches of Christ I would call them Dependent for the most of them are subordinate to Classicall Provinciall and Nationall Assemblies not Independent as the fewest are and of those few some of them are so unsound in doctrine that they deserve not the title of Churches to be put upon them and if you professe your selfe Independent in that sence you have acknowledged and for that be so called I pray you Sr. what suffering doe you complaine of is it any suffering to you to be called by your Name Mr. Saltmarsh which you owne and foro the bringing forth of your righteousnesse as the noone day I must tell you Sr. your dawnings of light are come to this noone dayes discovery that all may see but those whose eyes are darkened with your Smoke that the unrighteousnesse of those Sectaries whom you embrace as Independent Brethren in broken forth as the smoke of the bottomlesse pit Revel 9.2 with great danger to corrupt the ayre into an Epidemicall contagion SECT II. The Objection of unseasonablenesse of Mr. Saltm his Quare justified and his grosse mistake or wilfull falsification of my words detected Smoke Pag. 14. VVHat better season could I come in then such a one wherein things were but moving and ripening towards establishment where no thing is setled there nothing can be disturbed And whereas you say the Parliaments determinations were finall that holds better for me who might have spoken to much lesse purpose had I staid till and had beene done and the determinations ended and become finall sure it was a time then to speake or