A JOURNEY INTO THE COUNTRY BEING A DIALOGUE Between an English PROTESTANT Physitian AND AN English PAPIST WHEREIN The proper State of the Popish Controversy is discoursed With Reference only to the Government of ENGLAND in Church and State In some Answer to Peter Walsh and pursuant to the Directions of a Person of Honor. Papa stupor Mundi non Deus non Homo sed utrumque Gloss in proem Clem. Moscan de Rom. Pont. l. 1. c. 11. LONDON Printed for Henry Brome at the Gun at the West-end of St. Pauls M DC LXXV THE PUBLISHER TO THE READER THIS ensuing Discourse seems to be wrote about the time when by Proclamation Papists were not to reside within ten Miles of London and 't is not yet out of Season nor will be till our Controversies with the Papists be throughly and truly stated after which it cannot be long ere they be ended I see not how English men have to do with the Romish Church or State their Laws Doctrines or Discipline therefore while they have been exercising us with Disputes about those things they had two Ends viz. Either to lead us into some Precipice or to Lap-wing us from the proper tendency of our Enquiries which in truth is our home Concerns and so a Controversy only between English Papists and English Catholicks called Protestants for Distinction with reference to their Prince who governeth by Laws diverse from all the Nations of the World and so is not to be argu'd out of his Right by any Parallel from other Kingdoms But as a Person of Honour hath lately begun so this Author has set forward the proper Contest still meaning between English Papists and English Protestants the latter of whom affirm as follows 1. That the King of England is Emperour and sole Monarch of England and established by a Law diverse from all other Nations 2. That the Church of England has all the Rights of a Patriarchal See from which lies no Appeal to any other Patriarch 3. That all Church Authorities and Jurisdictions with reference to this life and the ends of Government are rightfully derived from the King of England being naturally in him as a mixt Person and Custos utriusque tabulae according to Rom. 13. 4. That he is a Traytor that denyes this or affirms any forreign Prince Prelate or Potentate to have any Jurisdiction in England c. or diminishes the Kings Legal Style 5. There was naturally no difference between Church and State as to Jurisdictions until Christian Monarchs divided Jurisdictions and delegated Civil and Ecclesiastical Persons to take Conusance and judge of Causes separate and those Jurisdictions are called Civil and Ecclesiastical in respect of the Delegates only and not in respect of the Causes whereof they take Conusance and Judge 6. The King hath power naturally within his Dominions by such his delegates respectively to declare what are Articles of Faith according to Scripture and not otherwise and to make and interpret Laws for the Government of Church and State to appoint Forms of Worship and Discipline not against the word of God to add to such Laws Sanctions to punish Offenders against such Laws 7. These Rights and Powers of the King are Inherent in him as Essential Flowers of his Crown as antient as the Crown it self in which his Subjects are so interessed with reference to their Propriety in his personal Government by Original Constitutions as the King cannot by any rightfâ—l Act he can do grant them away to any Forreign Power Person or Potentate or to others but by way of delegation as to the declarative and executive Part. 8. What ever of these Rights and Powers any King of England has at any time allowed to the Pope has been so allowed against the Fundamental Law of the Land and so was utterly void and not obliging to any Successors Kings of England c. 9. That all Papists denying the Jurisdiction of the Pope here both in Civil and Ecclesiastical matters yet holding Communion with the Church of Rome in matters of worship against our established Laws are grievous Offenders 10. That passive Obedience is no Obedience In as much as true Obedience must be spontaneous intire active and with respect to the Law of Nature antecedent to the Kings Command which injoyns intire Obedience to the Kings lawful Command for the Lords sake not barely for the Command sake 11. That the King cannot dispense with or free the Subject from such natural Obedience but only from the penalty added by and annexed to his Command 12. That the King cannot tolerate here the Exercise of the Popish Worship the same being superstitious and idolatrous and against the Established Laws 13. That no English man whatsoever how far so ever they pretend to differ from or disown the Pope can give reasonable security for the Preservation of the Peace of the Church or State by them unless they swear due Allegiance to the King and by Oath declare his Supremacy in the Church and by that Oath renounce all the Popes Authority whatsoever over them and his Power to dispense with that Oath and that they will be obedient to all the Kings Laws 14. That an English man in Priests Orders from the Church of Rome â—xcommunicated or censur'd by thaâ— Church and yet holding Communion with that Church iâ— not to be trusted here although he takes the Oaths above mentioned In as much as he is of no Church being wilfully divided from ours and by Censure divided from the other and so disobedient to all Governors a lawless and perjured Person and so in a present State of Damnation nor is any Romish Priest to be trusted here though he takes the said Oaths in as much as he hath taken a former Oath to the contrary not renounced 15. That since no English understanding Papist doth absent or at any time hath absented from our Communion and Worship out of pure Judgment and Reason But purely by reason of the old inhibition of the Pope in Q. Elizabeth's time for before that they joyn'd with us and were called Church Papists and at the same time they in opposition to our Kings Laws do so firmly yield to that Inhibition and disobey several other Commands of the Pope even in some matters of Faith It 's refer'd to the wisdom of the King with the advice of his said Delegates whether such co 〈…〉 ious Offenders be with any safety to be tolerated or even conâ—iv'd at here 16. That the Church and Court of Rome are so incorporated together that if Communion with that Church be admitted or tolerated here it must necessarily be introductory of that Courts Vsurpation 17. That there are now great differences of opinion among the English Papists themselves with reference to the Pope And if they were all of the mind with the most moderate Pretenders yet what Security can be given that they will alwayes be so or that they shall be succeeded by others of the same Judgment or is it
say against Forreigners let them use what Religion their Superiours there injoyn them But against English men who in opposition to the Religion of State distinct from that of Faith which is ordered by the proper Legislative Power such as your Church of Rome Papist is for ought I can yet see If your Father Paul was such I think him either a fool or a Knave for if St. Peters Successor did behave himself well in that Council your Paul was a Knave to traduce him if contrary he was a fool to leave a well ordered Church to follow the Dictates of such a faulty Guide yet were he a Subject of Rome he was much too blame so openly to reproach his Prince and yet was religious to dye a steady Cathâ—lick of that Church while he was obliged to hear the Pharisee sitting in St. Peters Chair Pap. Well Sir say what you will I say I am a true Roman Catholick as to the other World and a true English man as to this Phy. Sir you offered a Distinction lately with a witness viz. Father Paul and now comes a Distinction with Paulo majore and as to this I say it 's a Distinction well becoming a Romish-Church-Catholick but not a true English man for it looks two waies for if Chequer Papist party per pale half true Papist half true English will not do then it is to be interpreted True English man for life and after true Roman Catholick and so it has something of Policy but more of Romish Guile In as much as it serves to secure Protection and Preservation here during life and after in the other world True Roman Catholick goes for it to St. Peter God a mercy good Distinguisher he dares as well be hang'd as tell the Pope this how he cheats the Pope all his life and cheats the King at his death this Distinction dares not appear at Rome no more then peaceable Mr. Walsh Mr. White or Mr. Serjeant who non-conform from the Church of Rome more then our Independent from the Church of England Pap. But Sir if the Distinguisher as you call him explains himself and sayes he owes Allegiance to the King actively as to Matters of State and passively as to Matters of Church and so differs from your Church in pure Judgment only and no more then Presbyterian or Independents there who are good Subjects nevertheless owe Allegiance and claim protection c. what say you then c Phy. First I say that Church and State were all one before Christian Emperours divided them and causes were all derived from the same Fountain the King but as some were put into the hands of Ecclesiasticks and were called Ecclesiastical or Spiritual so others delegated to Civil Magistrates were called Civil thence arose the two Jurisdictions which are naturally one as in our King and by Delegation only made two But I further say if you be in earnest it is the first time I ever heard Papists to fight with Presbyterian weapons and I mean by earnest real for sad Experience has shew'd that it is not the first time by thousands that the Militants of the Romish Church have used the unhallowed Artillery of the spurious English Natives to fight withal against us Yet not in earnest or real as such but in Masquerade and if your Distinguisher be so half witted to tender this peace-meal Obedience I say further It 's the proper Result of Romish Ignorance for such Notional Obedience is indeed none True Obedience ought to be intire and is due to the lawful Magistrates Commands by the Law of Nature antecedent to any Command by the Magistrate for the Lords sake who injoyns to obey not barely for the Commands-sake which injoyns to do And there is more Religion in such Obedience then in all your Worship But Sir I would willingly be resolv'd whether the Romish Church Catholick dissent from us in Church matters in pure Judgment or by reason of some Command from the Pope next whether there be not a great difference between Protestant and Popish Dissenters Inasmuch as the former whatever he thinks concerning the power of his Prince in Church matters and perhaps would have him mend his Discipline according to mistaken Rule of Scripture yet he takes it not from our Prince and lodges it in a forraign Prince or Prelate which last makes it Treason Let this be answered and I 'le promise you not to take such an uncouth Travail as at present gives occasion of our Discourse Pap. Pray Sir is there any harm if I prefer the Pope to the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury Phy. None at all as the former is a Temporal Prince and the latter but a Subject nay more the Arch-Bishop of Rome shall have my Vote to take Precedency of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury at a general Council when it happens but not in England unless by Curtesy And if you prefer the Pope before the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury as to any power of Spiritual Jurisdiction in our Kings Dominions you are unmannerly to the Arch-Bishop who is Apostolick and Patriarch here as Pope Vrban the second allowed and you are a Traytor to the King by and under whose undoubted inherent Right and Authority the Arch-bishop is Primate in this Patriarchate Pap. But do you think in your Conscience that the Pope has no Right to Spiritual Jurisdiction in England Phy. Aye I do in my Conscience verily believe that the Pope has no Right to any Jurisdiction whatsoever in our Kings Dominions Pap. Pray what Grounds have you for it Phy. The Grounds I have for it is from the certain Testimony of Records continued in Succession for many hundred years which are to be seen in the Tower and some of them are transcribed by the Lord Coke and cited in the Report of a Law Case called Cawdries Case and in Mr. Prins Collections whereby it plainly appears that in all ages wherein the Pope laid claim to Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in England and offered to put the same in Execution it was alwaies opposed by Parliaments and Councils as derogatory to the just Rights of this Crown Pap. But how are you certain of the truth of these Testimonies Phy. Sir as to the matter of Certainty I shall not use the notions so much contended about viz. Moral Certainty or sufficient Certainty so much as the Nature of the thing is capable of there being three absolute Certainties by which we come to the knowledg of things 1. A sensible Certainty 2. A Mathematical Certainty 3. An Historical Certainty and all these are in their kinds respectively absolute The Certainty of Sence makes me absolutely Certain of what I see hear c. The Certainty of Demonstration makes me absolutely Certain that one and one makes two and three and three makes six The Certainty of History continued uninterrupted and undoubted and by unanimous Consent of succession of Ages and Historians makes me absolutely certain that there were such Kings of England as Kenulphus King Edwin Edw. the
better then your excommunicated Fryar can give Pap. I 'le tell you since you and I parted I was thinking of you and of your profession and wondred that you stuck so long on Religion since you are counted Atheists Phy. Perhaps some may count us so for looking into natural Causes and appointing natural Remedies perhaps the Vulgar may count us so because we seldom go to Church the reason of which is manifest from the urgency of our Concerns being on life and death and not to be neglected Pap. Yes truly I have heard the Urgencies are often so great and so many that a man is appointed to come frequently into the Church to call out the Doctor without cause and so he cheats God himself and the whole Congregation Phy. What some men may do I know not this I am sure the worst of us all cheats not so much as the best of your perswasion Pap. I believe I know the reason why some Physitians are so angry with our Religion Phy. I beseech you why are Physitians angry with your Religion more then others while even now they had none Pap. Let their Religion be what it will they will pretend any Religion rather then ours for Pope Greg. 15. anno 1622. prohibited Catholicks to use heretical Physitians Phy. If you have heard of a Book called Religio Medici you will there find good Religion and the Exterior part thereof such as may deserve kindness from a Puritan Papist yet containing himself within the just bounds of an English Protestant Pap. It is that very Book came even now into my mind and I remember he sayes there that he thanked God he did not live in the time of Christ and his Apostles And a witty Animadverter a Roman Catholick I will warrant him said it might be because his practice would have been spoyl'd for Christ and his Apostles cured gratis and On my Conscience that makes your Profession so angry with our Religion Phy. Pray are Papists so charitable as to cure for nothing I 'me sure I know some Physitians of that perswasion who take as much money as they can get Pap. All Catholicks are not of one mind but I remember you talk'd much of your Records and I 'me sure we have better Records of more good done by the Physick of the Church then by the Physicks of your Colledge and Universities Phy. The Physick of the Church I thought England had now been Master of all the Methods and Systems of Physick extant yet among them I have not met with the Physick of the Church Pap. It is a curing after the Hermitical way Phy. Hermetical I have read Hermes Trismegistus that excellent Philosopher and I think am acquainted with all Medicines and Recipe's Hermetical Empirical and Chymical Pap. Sir you mistake me I confess that the Science of Physick in all Rules of Art is more refined in England then was ever before but I say not Hermetical but Hermitical Phy. Pray unfold your self Pap. Why there 's it now The unfolding of this Notion Hermitical will make you understand the Physick of the Church Phy. Oh! I think I take it now You mean some found out in the Cloysters which you call Church Physick Pap. I do so and the use of the Physick would break Doctors Apothecaries and Chirurgeons Phy. Pray tell 's some of it Pap. Some of it why I could entertain you from hence to London with it Phy. Come faith we have been serious long enough now make me merry Pap. Hold ye there I 'me better appointed then to sport with things sacred yet what I shall tell you may occasion a religious mirth were you rightly disposed Phy. Sir I can demean my self answerable to any Entertainment and shall frame my self to your Conversation pray begin Pap. Sir I can tell you how to cure Child-bed Griefs by praying to St. Marquerite how St. Marus Bishop of Tryers cures Palseys and Convulsions St. Nicholas cures dangers at Sea St. Venisa Green-sicknesses and Womens Diseases St. Lucy Unchastity and which is remarkable St. Cosma and St. Damian both Physitians cure all Diseases gratis and purely upon humble request And St. Appollonia being pray'd unto cures the Tooth-ach which never a Doctor can do and I doubt not but when St. Austin said he was cured of the Tooth-ach by prayers it was by praying to this Saint And the Arm of St. David cures the Plague without the help of Doctor Hodge's book And if I should tell you all I could especially of the three Kings of Collen viz. St. Jasper St. Melchior and St. Balthasar you would wonder Phy. I might wonder indeed and so I did when I read the late Book called Reflections on the Romish Devotions and I wondred again and again that rational men in any Age much less in this Age and in this Climate where Learning and Knowledge is so much refined improved and sublimed should so night-mare their Vitalities with a rudis indigestaque moles of ridiculous Trash and suffer themselves to be blind-folded waving their proper Conduct of Reason and following they know not whom they know not how they know not whither especially in their Devotions And therefore Sir you may forbear your Hermitical Dispensatory for I am weary of that and of my Journey too therefore let 's hasten Pap. Sir I could in a short Discourse sufficiently make good the Devotions of our Church to the Saints and enough to convince any rational man Phy. Truly Sir I must confess you may tell a great many pretty Tales that might cozen my thoughts of the badness of the wayes and the uneasiness of my horse may be so far acceptable but my Judgment will be no way moved to think them so much as probably true And Sir the Saints to whom those pretended Miracles are by your Church ascribed are all of antient time and I hear not of any modern Saints that are endowed with such powers So that it should seem your Church has been of late very barren of Saints or else your Saints have been very lazy and I wonder that the Reliques of no late Pope Saints are found Pap. As to that Sir I must confess that these Saints I have mentioned lived and were famous under the Government of the Catholick Bishop of Old Rome and since that the Christian Faith is setled there is no need of extraordinary ways Phy. But you know many of the other were not for great ends but tryals of skill and now is more need to believe then ever But why Old Rome I hope you do not mean Pagan Rome Pap. No I mean old Christian Rome when Christianity was first planted there Phy. You do well to appoint them to Ages so long ago that the truth cannot be inquired into and I will tell you my Conceit how these Fables first came up The Heathens being guilty of Idolatry worshipping stocks stones Images imaginary Deities and Devils the ignorant Christians in those dark times to draw them into the Christian Religion by