other sleights besides these that you haue already mencioned The Germaine The 9. semblance YEs b Sleidan in Câ—m 5. there was one Thomas Muncer a Preacher who as Sleidan and other Germaine-writers reporte did greately labour both by his conferences in priuate by his Sermons in publike to draw the common people from their liking of the present estate The Englishman It hath likewise beene the practise of our factious preachers in their verball Sermons to speake against the statâ— ecclesiasticall the book of common prayer the rites ceremonies of the Church of England For the proofe heereof I referre you to the very confession of their owne lippes On Tuesday saith c Anno 1586. one of their owne side T. C. kept Maister Fens Lecture the Text Psalme 122 4. Vnto the end taking thornes as Tâ—emelius doth and vrging the discipline the want whereof he affirmed to be the cause that some friendes for sooke our Church And as this is the practise of some of our factious Ministers in England so is it also the practise of the same faction in Scotland Yea d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Page 38. 39. they snapper out grosselye with the truth of their intentions informing the people that all Kinges and Princes are naturally enemies to the libertye of the Church and can neuer patientlye beare the yoake of Christ with such sound Doctrine fed they their flockes The Germaine The 10. SeÌ„blance THe Anabaptists did not content themselues therewithal but to the end they might doe yâ— more harme they published factious Bookes to the view of the world as may bee gathered by this speech of Maister Zuinglius to the Magistrates in his time a Zuinglius de Baptism Si hoc cuiuis hominum impune facere licebit vt quae priuato suae rationis consilio adinuenit in vulgus spergat inconsulta imo resistente etiam vniuersatotius ecclesiae authoritate breui plus errorum quam fidelium Christianorum in ecclesia erit cernere If it bee lawfull for euery man to publish abroad among the people those thinges which he hath deuised of his owne head before he hath consulted with the Church nay against the authoritie of the whole Church in short time we shall see more errours in the Church then there be faithful men and Christians And in an other place Si hoc permittamus vt capitosus quisque male-feriatus homo c. If we suffer euery headie braineles fellow so soone as he hath conceiued any new thing in his minde to publish it abroad gather disciples and make a new sect in short time we shall haue so many sects factions that Christ which scarse with a great paine and labour is brought to vnitie in euery church should be deuided againe into many parts The Englishman Neyther did our Puritanes therewithall content themselues but that their poyson might ranckle the farther to the disturbance perrill both of the Church common-wealth they haue published a great number of Bookes which are as fit for the fire as the Bookes of curious Artes Act. 19. Yea and they haue also exhorted the common-people to peruse these their sedicious Pamphlets I pray you say they b In a Booke of theirs entituled the state of the church of England c. Page 10. when you come to London see if you can get these bookes The Ecclesiastical Discipline A learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernment The Counterpoyson A Seâ—mon on the 12. to the Romans and Maâ—ster Cartwights last reply some of which bookes haue been extant this dozen yeares and yet are not them answered and you shall there finde that the gouernment of the Church is contrary to the word of God But not to speake onely of their Bookes in gâ—nerall lâ—t vs take a view of the Contents thereof in particular The Germaine Our Sectaries did stuffe their bookes with inuectiues and out-cries both against the Magistracie and the Ministerie TO begin with the Magistracie they taught as Maister The 11. seÌ„blance a Bulling aduers Anabap. Fol. 19. Bullinger also recordeth that the Ciâ—il Magistrate hath no authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters and that hee ought not to meddle in causes of Religion and Faith The Englishman Our Sectaries come not farre behinde them heerein as appeareth by these their speeâ—hes b T. C. lib. 1. Page 192 for the making of orders and ceremonies in the Church saith T. C. they doe where there is a constituted ordered Church pertaine vnto the Ministers of the church and to the Ecclesiasticall gouernours and that as they meddle not with the making of ciuill Lawes and Lawes for the common-wealth so the ciuill Magistrate hath not to ordaine ceremonies partaining to the Church c T. C lib 2 Page 1â—5 And againe No ciuil Magistrates in councels or assemblies for Church-matters can eyther be chiefe moderator ouer-ruler Iudge or dâ—tâ—rminer d Admon 2 No ciuil Magistrate say the admonitors hath such authoritie as that without his consent it should not be lawfull for ecclesiasticall persons to make any church-order or ceremonie e Admon 1 And againe To these three ioyntlie that is the Ministers Seniors and Dâ—acons is the whole regiment of the Church to be committed By this you may see that our Sectaries doe shake hands both with the Anabaptists the Papists But albeit these three contrary factions haue vnited ioyned themselues together and doe al ioyntly oppugne the Princes authoritie in causes â—cclesiasticall yet the authoritie of the sacred Scriptures the judgement of the auncient Fathâ—rs the decisions of auncient Counsels and the practiâ—e of Christian Princes in the pâ—imatiue Church are able to seuer and dis-ioyne all their forces To beginne with the Scriptures they giue sufficient warrant to ciuill Gouernours to ordaine Lawes in Ecclesiastical causes and doe expressely teach that a 2. Reg 12 4 2 Chro. 19. 4. Ibidâ—m 30 1 34. 3. Iehosaphat Hezekias and Iosias did make Lawes for the recalling excercising of the Seruice of God As for the Fathers they holde it to bee an Oracle for truth that b Aug. Epi. 48 Kinges doe serue Christ in making lawes for Christ Yea c Aug. Epi. 50 Rex aliter seruit Domino saith Saint Augustine quia homo est aliter quia etiam Rex est Quia homo est ei seruit viuendo fideliter quia vero Rex est seruit leges iust a praecipientes contraria prohibentes conuenienti vigore sanciendo A King serueth the Lord one way as he is a man and an other way as he is a King As hee is a man he serueth him by liuing faithfully As he is a King he serueth him by making lawes with conuenient vigor to coÌ„maunde that which is right and forbid the contary But not to insist onely vpon Saint Augustins iudgement The d Vide Sozomen lib. 1. cap 17. Bishops that came to the counsell of Nice gaue to the Emperour
contemned our Superintendents beheld with disdaine their Titles and Offices The Englishman The Titles and Offices of Arch-bishoppes and Bishops are more auncient and necessarye then the Titles and Offices of Superintendents are for the Apostle Peter did as Clemens hath obserued appoint in a Clemens in CompeÌ„diario Christiana Religion euery Prouince one Arch-bishop whome all other Bishops of the Prouince should obey And wee reade that Dyonisius Areopagita was b Volusus epist ad Nichol. 1. Archbishoppe of Athens and appointed thereunto by Saint Paul that Timothie was c Chrysost in 1. Timoth. 5. Bishoppe of Ephesus that Titus was d Chrysost in 1. Tit. Bishop of Creta that Saint Iohn e Euseb lib. 3 cap. 23. gouerned the Church in Asia after his returne from Pathmos that Iames was f Euseb lib. 2. cap. 23. Bishoppe of Ierusalem that Polycarpe was g Tertul. de Prescript Bishoppe of Smirna that Demetrius was h Euseb lib. 6 cap. 1 Bishoppe of Alexandria that Saint Cyprian was i cyprian lib 4 Epist 8. Bishoppe of Carthage that Saint Gregory was k Euseb lib. 7. cap. 14. Bishop of Pontus that Saint Chrysostome was l Theod. lib. 5. cap. 28. Archbishoppe of Constantinople that Theodoret was m Theod. epist ad Leon. Bishoppe of Cyprus And in Elutherius his time which was Anno Dom. 180. when this Realme was first conuerted to Christianitie there was as Maister Fox n Tom. 1. page 146. acknowledgeth appointed in the same three Archbishoppes and 28. Bishops All which notwithstanding the fauourites of the new fangle-faction would haue instead of Arch-bishoppes an equalitie of Ministers If you wiâ— restore the Church say the Admonitors to his auncient Officers this you must doe instead of an Arch-bishoppe or Lord Bishoppe you must make equalitie of Ministers Yea o T. C. lib 2 page 438. the learnedst of them is not ashamed to write that Archbishops and Bishoppes are new Ministeries neuer ordained by God The Germaine The 20. seÌ„blance A Although p Gerlachius in Hyper. Dan. page 30. the Anabaptists pretended the forenamed equalitie yet they sought Dominion laboured onely to pull the rule from others that the rule might haue boâ—â—e in their owne handes and that they onelye might haue borne the sway The Englishman That our Puritanes doe the like I prooue it by the late Archbishops experience You desire saith a In his deseÌ„ce of the answere to the Admonition page 459. hee this equalitie not because you would not rule for it is manifest that you seeke it moste ambitiously in your manner but because you condemne and disdaine to bee ruled and to bee in subiection Indeede your meaning is as I said before to rule and not to be ruled to doe what you list in your seuerall cures without controlement of Prince Bishoppe or any other And therefore pretending equalitie most disorderly you seek Dominion I speake that I knowe by experience in some of you But let vs see what other speeches they deliuered against your ecclesiasticall Magistrates The 21. seÌ„blance The Germaine VVHat needes so many wordes b Gerlacius in Hyper Dan. Page 30. Gerlachius telleth you that they disdained them scorned them rayled on them The Englishman Yea but they haue not come neere our Puritanes in this point I will acquaint you with some of their speeches which they haue belched out against the Reuerend Fathers of our Church They c See their Booke inituled Hay yee any worke page 14. 15. 20. 21 blush not to say that Archbishoppes and Bishops are superfluous members of the body of Christ that they maime and deforme his body making it by that meanes a Monster that they are vnlawfull false and bastardly gouernours of the Church that they are ordinances of the Deuill that they are in respect of their places enemies of God that they are Petty Popes pettie Antichristes Bishoppes of the Deuill that the lawes that maintaine Archbishops Bishops are no more to be accounted of then the lawes that maintaine stewes that the true church of God ought to haue no more to doe with them their Sinagogues then with the sinagogues of Sathan But not to interrupt your speech any longer what was the câ—use that the Anabaptists railed on your church-gouernors The Germaine The 22. seÌ„-blance SVrely a Bulling advers Anabap. Fol. 19. 95. 242. because they endeuoured to bring them to conformitie by compulsion The Englishman By the orders of our Church and lawes of the Realme there is required of our Ministers a subscriptioÌ„ to his Majestres lawfull authority in causes Ecclesiasticall to the Articles of Religion to the Booke of Common Prayer and to the orders Rites Ceremonies of our Church Now because our Church-gouernours do according to their duetie depriue those of their liuings that refuse to subscribe heerunto The Puritanes doe complaine of rigor and reuile Gods high Priest which Saint b Act. 23. 5. Paul repented hee had ignorantly done though that high Priest was an vsurper I confesse indeede that they haue yeilded to subscribe to c See their petition to the King the Articles of Religion and to the Kings suprmacie but this is not sufficient for it is a thing too manifest with what libelling and rayling the forme of our Seruice of our Ceremonies of our apparell c. hath beene depraued and shamefully slaundered by these factious Sprits They haue blazed and diuulged abroade as shall heereafter be shewed more at large that the Communion Booke was culled and picked out of the Popish dunghill the Masse Booke that it is Papisticall that it were better to conforme our selues in outward thinges to the Turkes then to the Papists It behooueth therfore the reuerend Fathers of our Church to compell them to subscribe not onely to the Articles of Religion and to the Kinges supremacy but to the Communion Booke also and to the Discipline of our Church Neyther ought they to thinke that they are too rigorously dealt withal if that they be compelled vrged to shew their conformitie in all thinges seeing that the same course is taken in all other Churches for the repressing of schisme To insist onely in one particular whosoeuer is made Minister at Geneua he sweareth to keepe a Vide leges Geneuens Fol. 3. all their Ecclesiasticall ordinances Yea we reade b Vide Bezam in vita Caluin that Maister Caluin procured a generall oath to be taken through out the whole Cittie of Geneua for the approbation therof Now why should not our Reuerend Bishops haue as free libertie to doe the like But tell mee did not your Anabaptists require a secret subscription of their followers The Germaine Yes although they would not yeild their conformitie with vs in obseruing the good lawes and ordinances of our Church yet priuatlie as c Sleidan L. 6 Sleidan reporteth they gaue their mutuall faith and oath each to other The Englishman The 23.
one Thâ—mâ—â— Muâ—cer in Germanye who taught that God euen in these daies doth reueale his will by dâ—eames visions and reuelations c Ipsemeâ— mihi coram prâ—misit c. Slâ—â—dan Câ—â— â— God saith hee hath waâ—â—aÌ„ted â—e face to face he that cannot lye hath commaunded me to attempt the change by these meanes euen by killing the Magistrâ—tes And Phifer his lewde companion did but dreame in the night time of the killing of many Mice presentâ—ye expounded his dreame of murthering the Nobles Yea at Sangallâ—â— a Towne in Switherland one of our Anabaptists did as d Suriuâ— in coment Sâ—â—ius reporteth cut off the head of his owne natural Brother the Parents to them both standing by And the reason which hee had for dooing it waâ— forsooth because it was commaunded him from aboue Now tell mee was there euer any such fellowes in England Englishman Yes there was one a See the conspâ—â— Page 42. Hacket that tolde the people that God had reuealed his will vnto him extraordinarily and that he had receiued an imediate calling from God to reforme the Church and to cal the whole world to repentance There was also a b Conspir pag 14. Puritan preacher that informed the said Hacket that God doth wil from time to time rayse vp extraordinary workes and helpers to his Church as Apostles Euang elistâ— and Prophets where neede requireth And for the proofe of this his opinion hee produced the example of one that cryedvp and downe the streetes in Ierusalem before it was besiedged The Germaine Yea but was this Hacket a Puritane your Puritanes happily will not acknowledge him to be one of their side The Englishman Yes that hee was a Puritane it may appeare by these his Puritane trickes viz 1. c For the proof of al these particulars following I referre you to a Booke extant entiâ—â—led the conspiracie of preteÌ„ded reformation page 4. 1â— 14. 34. 3â— He followed such Preachers at did fitte his humor and would not heare Maister Ray the Preacher of the Townew here he dwelt 2. Hee burned in desire of reforming the Church and Common-wealth 3. Hee had some of the Bretheren to fast with him before he attempted his reformation 4. Hee purposed to plant in euery congrâ—gation an clder shippe or consistone of Doctors Pastâ—rs Lay-â—lders and widowes 5 He rayled on the Bishops and on all other that withstood this his reformation But what need I stand to proue this who knoweth not how that hee and his two counterfet Prophets the selfe-same day they arose in Cheap-side tolde the said Puritan-preacher in the morning that reformation and the Lords discipline should then forth-with he established They did also charge him to put all Christians in comforte that they should shortly see a ioyfull alteration in the state of the Church-gouernment Thus you see how that we haue confitentemreum the confession of his owne lips against him-selfe so that there needs no more to doe as Dauid spake to the young man that brought newes of the death of Saul Os tuum contra te loqutum est thine owne mouth hath spoken against thee The Germaine Yea but was that Preacher a Puritane that auouched extraordinary callings by the example of him that cryed vp and downe the streetes of Hierusalem before it was besiedged The Englishman Yes for hee was d See the conspir pag. 2 Vicar of Sâ—dbergo and Dent in the Northern partes and for his intolerable insolencies and contempt of the gouernment of the Church was both depriued of that his Benefice and deposed from the Ministerie by the authoritie of our late Soueraignes Commission for causes Ecclesiasticall But to proceede in order did there euer arise vp amongest the Anabaptists any such like Prophets as these were The Germaine Yes in the month of Iuly Anno Dom. 1533. a new Prophet beeing a Gold-smith by his trade arose vp amongst them who called the multitude together into the market-place and signified vnto them that it was the will of God that Iohn of Lâ—yden should be Emperour of all the Earth and that hee should destroye all Princes and Potentates but spare the common people that loued sinceritie The Englishman As your Iohn of Leyden was Proclaimed Emperour by the Golde-smith Anno Dom. 1533. so was a See the conspir Page 66. Hacket proclamed King by his counterfet Prophets the 33. yere of the Raigne of our late Soueraigne Queene of famous memory But proceed on I pray you in this matter The Germaine IN the said yere of our Lord about the end of December The 81. seÌ„blance one of our Anabaptists pretending himselfe to be diuinely inspired and rauished in spirit did goe through the street of the Citie of Munster crying Repent repent and be againe Baptized or else the iudgement and wrath of God will quickely or suddenly fall vpon you The Englishman So in the said yeere of our late Queenes raigne vpon the 16. of Iuly in the morning did b See the consp pag. 55. 56. the Annales of England collected by Iohn Stowe pag. 1288. Hackets said Prophets goe from one Walkers house neere vnto Broken-Wharfe in London and going from thence by Watlingstreete Olde-Change toward Cheapside cryed out and said Christ Iesus is come with his Fanne in his hand to iudge the earth Repent England repent repent But now to conclude this whole discourse what other outragious villanie committed your Anabaptists The Germaine The 82. seÌ„blance Truely they joyned their forces together and made an insurrection as you may read in Sleidan and in other of our Germaine writers The Englishman So did Hacket likewise commit Treason against our late Queenes Majestie in the three and thirtith yeare of her Raigne and for the same was arraigned on the 26. of Iuly immediately following and c See the Annales of England pag. 1289 by twâ— seuerall inditements found guiltie as to haue vttered and spoken diuers moste false trayterous wordes against her Maiesty to haue raced and defaced her Maiesties Armes as also a certaine Picture of the Queenes Maiestie and did malicionsly and trayterously thrust an iron instrument into that parte of the said Picture that did represent the Breast and Heart of the Queens Maiestie God Almightle who preserued her Majestie from the Trayterous stratagems of all her enemies and gathered her to her Fathers in peace Preserue him likewise that sitteth on her Throne after her and when he is gathered to his Fathers the woe whereof fall vpon an other age let him goe to rest with greater tokens of his fauour then euer to fall into the handes of such Anabaptisticall Puritanes oâ— any other Trayterous enemies The Germaine Euen so Lord Iesu Amen Amen Puritano-papismus OR A Discouerie of Puritan-papisme made by way of Dialogue or conference betweene a Protestant and a Puritane The 1. Dialogue Wherein is plainely shewed that the Puritanes haue in sundry things ioyned with the Pharisies Apostolickes Aerians Pepuzians Petrobrusians Florinians Cerinthians
on the Popes side in this matter His wordes are these c lib. 2. page 48. The Christian Soueraigne ought not to be called the hoad vnder Christ of the particular and visible Churches within his Dominions The Puritane But doe any of our writers spoy le the Ciuil Magistrate of all gouernment in Ecclesiastical matters as the Papists doe The Protestant Yes the Admonitors say in plaine tearmes that d Admon page 126. to these three ioyntly that is the Ministers Seniors and Deacons is the whole regiment of the Church to be committed Now if the whole gouernment of the Church be to be committed to Ministers Seniors and Deacons what authoritie remaineth to the ciuill Magistrate in the gouernment of it The Puritane a These are the words of T. C. page 153. I answere in the name of the Authors of the Admonition that the Prince and ciuill Magistrate hath to see that the lawes of God touching his worship and touching all matters and orders of the Church be executed and duely obserued and to see that euery Ecclesiasticall person doe that office whereunto he is appointed and to punish those which faile in their office accordingly As for the making of the orders and ceremonies of the Church they do where there is a constâ—â—uted and ordered Church pertaine to the Ministers of the Church c. The Protestant I reply with the wordes of the late Reuerend Archbishop b In his defence of the answere to the Admon page 694. 695. 696. VVhat no more but to see them executed how differeth this from Papists The Papists giue to the Christian Magistrate in Ecclesiasticallmatters potestatem facts noniuris that is to see those lawes executed and put in practise that the Pope and his Cleargie shall make and to be as it were their executioner but not to make any lawes in Ecclesiasticall matters for doth not Saunders a popish writer say the same c saunders fol. 64. Although I do not deny saith he that the knowledge of a fact that belongeth to the Ecclesiasticall lawe may be committed to Kinges and Magistrates and before the Ecclesiasticall cause be determined the King may vse his authoritie to this ende that there may bee some quiet place prepared where the Bishops shall consult and that the Bishops be called to the same place at a certaine day and that in the meane time while the matter is in determining common peace may bee preserued euen among the Priestes themselues To conclude after the cause be determined and iudged by the Priestes the King may punish him with the sword which hee carieth not in vaine or by some other corporall punishment which shalrefuse to obey the sentence of the Priestes a Muscul in locis com-tituâ— de magistratu Musculus also setteth out this Popish opinion touching the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall affaires very plainly in these wordes Those whome they call Ecclesiasticall Persons and wee call them Papists will not commit to the Magistrate any further authoritie in Religion then to bee the keeper and reuenger of it and of their Ecclesiasticall Lawes that the Ecclesiasticall polliciâ— may remaine immoouable wherefore they deny hin to haue authoritie in that hee is a Magistrate to make or to publish any Ecclesiasticall lawes because such thinges pertaine to those that do represent the Church whose decrees and constitutions must bee maintained and defended by the authoritie of the Magistrate But to leaue this resemblance what arguments doe the Popish Doctors vse against the Princes authoritie in causes Ecclefiasticall The Puritane b Sanders lib. 2 cap. 1. fol. 27. Saunders c Harding against the Apologie fol. 118. Harding and other of them do quote 2 Chron. 198. 11. which place maketh indeede fully against them for Iehosaphat had chiefe authoritie and gouernment both in thinges pertaining to the Church and in thinges pertaining to the Common-wealth but for better execution of them the one hee did commit to bee executed by Amaziah the Priest the other by Zebadiah a Ruler of the house of Iuda euen as the Kings Maiestie being in all causes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall within these his Realmes and Dominions supreame gouernour committeth the hearing and iudging of Ecclesiasticall matters to the Reuerend Fathers of the Church and of Temporall matters to the Right honourable the Lord Chancelour and other Iudges Now had Iehosaphat nothing to doe with Church-matters because he made Amaziah Priest iudge in the same they may as well say that bee had nothing to doe in Temporall affaiers because he also appointed Zebadiah to heare and determine them The Protestant True and yet T. C. quoteth the selfe same place to prooue the selfe same thing a T. C. page 145. sect 1. looke saith he in the second Booke of the Cronicles in the 19. Chap. and in the 8. and 11. verses and you shall see that there were a number appointed for the matters of the LORD which were Priestes and Leuits and there were other also appoynted for the Kinges affayers and for matters of the CommoÌ„-wealth c. The Puritane But in what other thinges agree we with the Papists The Protestant 1. The Papists would not haue the scriptures read in the Church to the people No more would your Puritane-popish writers for b In their viewe of po Pish abuses remaining fol. 2. they blush not to say that reading is no feeding but as euil as playing vpon a Stage and worse too 2. The Papists condemne our Book of common prayers set out by publique authoritie and the whole order of seruice so doe you 3. The papists say that our Sacraments are not rightly ministred so say you likewise as hath beene already shewed 4. The Papists say that we haue no right ministerie in England no Pastours no Bishops because they be not rightly and canonically called to these functions the selfe same doe you affirme as hath also beene shewed 5. The Papists auouch that we are not the true church no that wee haue not so much as the outward face and shew of the true Church the selfe same thing do your Puritan-popish teachers auouch in their first Admonition page 33. and in their second admonition page 6. The Puritane All this notwithstanding we come farre short of the Papists for Popery is as a â— Bâ—in his toyle for 2. legged Foxes chap. 3. one truely saith an hotch-potch and miserable mingle-mangle of all Sathans forgeries and diuelish heresies VVith Carpocratian Heretickes they set vp the image of Christ and other Saints with the Anthropomorphits they painâ— God the Father like an olde man with a gray beard with the Pelagian Heretickes they maintaine free will power to iustifie our selues and to fulfill the commandements with the Messalians they mumble their Mattens Pater nosters and seauen Psalmes by number vpon a payre of Beades with the Tatians Cataphryges Montanistes and Ebionites they seeke sanctification in eating and not eating in marrying
and so giue them that reuerence which is due to the Messengers of God But to let this passe I pray you what busiâ—es haue you at the Parliament The Puritane I am the mouth of my Brethren to the Honorable Senate of Parliament that some of our Ecclesiasticall lawes may be repealed and changed The Protestant Were I worthy to bee the mouth of my Brethren to that Honorable Senate I would make humble sute that you might be seuerely punished for seeking to repeale change those lawes which were enacted by graue and learned men You would not be so busie with your Billes at the Parliament if that law were of force amongst vs which as b Demost coÌ„tr◠〈◊〉 Demosteâ—es testifieth was of force amongst the Locrians viz That he that should offer â—o repeale and change aâ—â—cient lawes and put vp new should come with a Halter about his Neck to the Parliament that if there were better reason against his Lawes he should be hanged vp for his â—olde attempt The Puritane I would be 〈◊〉 a 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Protestant Well follow your owne 〈◊〉 yet let me tel you with a Seneca in 〈◊〉 Seneca that it is not good to be busie in a will ordered state But I pray you make Auricular confession vnto me tell me in myne eare haue you no other businesse at the Parliament The Puritane Yes if we cannot procure an alteration of the Iewes we will make sute for a dispensation The Protestant I cannot see how it may stand with equitie that some should be bound to shewe their conformitie and obedience to Lawes and others be dispensed with It is Seneca his saying b Seneca in Epist Acqualitas prima pars aequitatis est Equalitie is the first and chiefe part of Equitie Againe such a dispensation would breed diuision For a diuision in Lawes maketh a diuision in Kingdomes and causeth partaking among the people and chusing of sides and therwithall strife enuy emulations contentions and a thousand other such mischiefes And as diuision in Lawes causeth diuision in Kingdomes so diuision in King-domes causeth the ouerthrow and subuersion of King-domes For it is a sure principle and maxime which our Sauiour giueth in the Gospell A kingdome diuided against it selfe cannot stand Now if the Kingdome of Sathan diuided against it selfe cannot stand how can a Kingdome of flesh and blood and of motrall men But though no such danger were likely to ensue vpon such a tolleration and conniuencie yet it standeth not with any conueniencie that one people within the same land and vnder the same gouernment should bee vnder diuers lawes It is 〈◊〉 his saying and it is an Oracle for truth that they ought to be vnder one Law that are vnder the gouernement of one King a Curtius lib. 10. Eiusdem iuris saith hee esse debent quisub eodem rege victuri sunt It is also the iudgement of auncient fathers that all those that liue in the same Church together should bee vnder Law indifferently and should bee enforced by the Lawe to accommodate themselues to the customes of the place wherin they liue In his rebus saith Saint b August Epist 86. Augusten de quibus nihil certi statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta maioruÌ„ pro lege tenenda sunt And in another place c Aug. Epist 218. Quod neque contra fidem neque contra bones mores iniungitur indifferenter est habendum et pro corum inter quos viuitur societate seruandum est And Saint Ierome holdeth it very meete that Ecclesiasticall traditions namely such as doe not hinder faith should bee obserued as they are deliuered of our Elders that the custome of one should not be ouerthrowne with the contrarie customes of others His words are these d Hieron ad Luciuium Traditiones ecclesiasticas praesertim quae fidei non officiunt ita obseruandas vt a maioribus traditae sunt nec aliorum consuetudinem aliorum contrario modo subuerti With these auncient Fathers of the Church our latter writers goe hand in hand Gwalther writing vpoÌ„ the first to the Corinthians saith thus e Gualther in 1. Cor. 5. Let euery Church followe the manner of Disciplyne which dooth moste agree with the people place and time And in the Preface to the same Epistle he saith that in rites and ceremonies there can bee no better rule for a graue and wise Christian then that he doe after that manner the which he seeth vsed of the Church vnto the which he shall paraduenture come And Hemmingius holdeth it an haynous sinne to break the ordinances of the Church f HeÌ„mingius in syntag cap. de adiaphoris Qui violat saith hee ecclesiasticam politiam pec at multis modis Zanchius also propoundeth vs this rule to obserue that in externall thinges wee would applye our selues to the customes of the Countries where wee conuerse I will acquaint you with his wordes a Zanchius de operibus Dei part 3. l. 4. c 2 Tenenda stregula Apostoli de his externis rebus quae etiaÌ„ apud Gentiles visitate sunt vt quae non pugnant cum verbo Dei nullam redolent vel superstitionem vel faeditatem eaâ— pro more consuetudine regionis vbi degimus vna cum alijs obseruemus Further if you please to heare Doctor Whitakers hee is no colde aduocate Proctor in this point He doubteth not to say that the Church hath authoritie to make Lawes in causes ecclesiasticall and to inioyne men to obserue them and to punish the refusers I will giue you his expresse words b Whitak controuers 3. de concil quaest 1. Habuit Ecclesia semper authoritatem lâ—ges Ecclesiasticas condendi sanciendi easque alijs imperandi eos puniendi qui non obseruarent As for Maister Perkins he is so far froÌ„ exempting any froÌ„ shewing their coÌ„formity obedieÌ„ce to yâ— good lawes of the Church as that hee holdeth them guilty of sinne before God that doe wittingly and willingly with a disloyall minde eyther breake or omit them His wordes are these c perkins in his treatise of conscience Wholesome Lawes of men made of thinges indifferent so far foorth bind conscience by vertue of the generall commaundement of God which ordaineth the Magistrates authoritie that whosoeuer shall wittingly and willingly with a disloyall minde eyther breake or omit such Lawes is guiltie of sinne before GOD And in an other place of the same treatise The Lawes which the Church in proper speech is said to make are dicrees concerning outward order and comelinesse in the administration of the word and Sacraments in the meetinges of the Congregation c. And such Lawes made according to the generall rules of Gods word which requires that all thinges be done to edification in comelinesse for the auoyding of offence are necessarie to be obserued and the word of God bindes d It dispenses with none all men to them so farre foorth aâ— the keeping of them maintaines decent order and preuents open offence But what neede I drawe mine arguments from the Cisternes of humane authoritie It is the Apostles direction that we should a Phil. â— 16 all proceede by one rule and minde one thing that wee should b 1. Cor. 1. 10. all bee knit together in one minde and in one iudgement and that we should c Phil. 1. 27. all continue in one spirit and in one minde God Almightie whose work alone it is that those who dwell together in one house shall bee of one minde so magnifie his work amoÌ„gst vs yâ— we who dwell together in one Kingdome may now at length be of one minde and liue in peace And thus I leaue you wishing first of all your conformitie if that cannot be had my next wish is that you were dealt withall as Phillip of Macedon dealt with two of his subjects in whom there was little hope of grace d Alterum â— Macedonia fugere alterum persequi iussâ—t hee made one of them to runne out of the countrie and the other to driue him So his people were rid of both FINIS
see plainely that our Puritanes doe shake hands with them The Germaine I will with all my heart The Englishman Then begin when you will The Germaine The 1. semblance A a Vide Sleidan libe 4 6. Bout sixe yeares after that Martin Luther began to preach the Gospel the Deuil to disturbe this worke stirred vp certaine rash-pates and giddy-headed preachers that misliked not onely the Doctrine of the Pope but of Luther also The Englishman When Queene Elizabeth whose memoriall be blessed for euer came to her Crowne she found the church of EnglaÌ„d as b Inueni lateritiam reliquâ—â— marâ—â—reanâ— Augustus did the Citie of Rome of brick she turned it into marble she found it in the sands she set it vppon a Rocke the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles Yea she caused the euerlasting Gospell to be preached throughout al her Realmes Dominions and restored both the letter of the Bible to a vulgar language and al her people to freedome of conscience who might not reade it before but priuily and by stealth as men eate stolne bread But the Deuill to disturbe this worke stirred vp certaine hot-brained inconsiderate importune Preachers who neither liked of the Pope nor of the present estate of the Church for want of some puritie as they fancied Yea no sooner had snee taken the Scepter into her Princely hand but some of these audacious spirits being then beyond the seas sent word into England that their pretended holy a see their exhortation to England printed at Genena Anno Dom. 1559. discipline ought to be set vp that all Princes ought to submit themselues vnder the yoake of it that what Prince soeuer did disanull it was to bee reputed Gods enemie and to bee held vnworthy to raigne aboue his people And not long after some of them returned home and spake very homely against the book of common prayer and against the rites and ceremonies of the Church of England But they being then as they haue beene euer since ouer matched by the reuerend Fathers of our Church childishly made their complaint to Maister Beza as appeareâ—h by an b Epist 8. Epistle of his which he wrote to Doct. Grindal in the yere of our Lord. 1556 and by an other c Epist 12. Epistle which hee wrote about a yeare after where he hath these words Being d saepe multuÌ„ques c. often and greatlye desired of my dearest belooued Bretheren of the Churchof England that in their miserable estate I would giue them some counsell whereuupon their consciences might rest Diuersmen holding diuers opinions a long time I deferred for diuers waightie causes so to doe and I protest that moste willingly I would yet haue been silent but that I suppose I should greately offend if I should still râ—â—ect their so many petitions and pittifull groâ—â—ings By this it appeareth that these groaners disliked not onely the Church of Rome but the Church of England also Now let vs see the cause of their dislike The Germane The 2. semblance The Anabaptists disliked the Church of Germanie because it was not so perfect nor serued so fitly for the planting of puritie as they thought requisite And for this cause M. e Caluin aduers Anabap. Caluin doth not vnfitly resemble them to the Puritanes in former ages In times past saith he there were two sects of Heretickes which troubled the Church greatelye the one sect of them were commonly called Puritanes the other Donatists And both of them were in the same errour that these dreamers are in seeking for a church wherein there should want nothing that might bee desired The Englishman a T. C. Repl. page 17. sect 4 And in the same error was one T. C. a chiefe founder of the Pnrâ—tan-factioÌ„ I will acquaint you with his words The Church in the whole and generall gouernment and outward pollicie of it may be pure and vnspotted And to this his error doth his Proselytes also incline ouer-farre For which cause we may iustly tearme them Anabaptisticall proud and Hypocritical Puritanes and say vnto them as b Caluin aduers Anabapte art 2. Maister Caluin said to the Anabaptists in his time Cum sub specie studij perfectionis imperfectioneÌ„ nullaÌ„ tolerare possumus aut in corpore aut in meÌ„bris Ecclesiae tunc diabolum nos tumefacere superbia et hipocrisi seà ucere moneamur VVhere as vnder the colour of a desire of perfection wee can tolerate no imperfection eyther in the body or in the members of the Church then may we bee admonished that it is the Deuill which puffeth vs vp with pride and seduceth vs with Hypocrisie But to proceede were there many of these Sectaries in Germanie The Germaine c Vide Sleid. Lib. 4. et 6. There were but very few of them at the first but afterwards they did grow to such a multitude as that there arose vp in armes aboue an hundred thousand of them at once who sacked sundrie townes tn Germany murthered some of the Nobilitie and committed many other outragious villanies Yea their factious teachers by their continuall clamours Philippickes and inuectiue declamations against the enormities as they supposed both of the state ecclesiastical ciuill had so whetted them on as that they could not wholy be vanquished vntill b Sleidan lib. 7 paulo pâ—st medium almoste an hundred thousand of them were slaine by the vnited forces of the Princes of the Empire The Englishman How did they grow to such a multitude The Germaine THey had their priuate conuenticles where they The 3. semblance linked themselues together and gaue mutuall faith and oath each of them to sticke to other The Englishman So holde our Sectaries also their conuenticles in priuate houses and in secret corners which c Veritai non â—â—â—rit angulos truth seldome seeketh For example sake and for veryfying what I haue said I will acquaint you with some of them It was at a priuate d Anno 1572 conuenticle where the admonitors agreed that the admonition which the late Archbishop confuted should be compiled and offered to the Parliament approaching It was at their priuate conuenticles where they framed the said platforme It was at their priuate conuenticles where they concluded that their said giddy fancies should bee committed to one of the chiefest of them to bee corrected against an other Parliament which e Anno 29 Reg Eliz. then approached It was at a priuate f In Conuent Anno 1588 conuenticle where conference was had againe about this second corrected platforme It was at a priuate conuenticle where the doubts which grew at their former assemblie were debated It was at a priuate conuenticle where it was concluded T. C. being present that their platforme was an essentiall forme of discipline and where they subscribed to the greatest part of it without any further expecting the Magistrates pleasure It was at a priuate a In Conuent Anno. 1588. conuenticle
am not ignorant how that it was decreed by the auncient Fathers assembled at the Councell of Chalcedon that noe man should bee ordayned Minister of two seuerall Churches in two seuerall places I will giue you theiâ— wordes a Con. chaleed â—an 10. Let no man be ordained Minister of two seuerall Churches in two seuerall Citties but let him remaine in that vnto which he was first called And if for vaine glorie hee shall afterwards goe to a greater Congregation let him immediately be recalled to his first charge in that onely exercise his Ministerie But if one be called to an other charge let him simply giue ouer the former and haue no interest in the same That which I misliked was the Anabaptisticall intent of some of them who to my knowledge set their hands to the said Supplication I am in good hope said one of them that double and triple beneficed men shall now by our meanes be remooued and that others of our fellowe-Ministers he meant his factious fellowes shall succeede them But to leaue this particular did they not seeke to take away their good name as well as their liuinges The Germaine YEs they cried out against our Ministers in Germanie The 28. seÌ„blance and said that they did not themselues those thinges which they taught vnto others The Englishman So doe our factious Ministers likewise beare the world in hand that all Ministers besides themselues b See their Petition to the King doe seeke onely their owne quiet profit and credit in the world But what was the cause I pray you that your Anabaptists did thus reuile back-bite and slaunder your Ministers The Germaine SVâ—ely it was onely because they opposed themselues against them and their factious proceedings And this made Zuinglius being to enter the lists against them to say thus a Zuinglius de Baptism Scio quibus conuitijs et quantis furoribus illorum hic me exponam I knowe to what reproaches and to how great rages of theirs I make my selfe subiect And againe Although they maruelously slaunder vs and dayly with new clamours reuile and backe-bite vs yet will I neuer leaue off the defence of the truth before their contumaey be made knowne to all men The Englishman The selfesame cause mooued our Sectaries also to reuile backe-bire and slaunder our Ministers I will not name the slaunderous reports the vnchristian taunts and contumelies that Martin Mar-prelate the Displayer of men in their colours Doctor Somes Painter and other blacke-mouthed Puritanes haue laden the faithfull Seruants of God with Take a view onely of T. C. his Bookes and you shall finde that hee vttereth almost nothing else but speeches of disdayne and reproach The especiall grace hee had in writing was in bitter inuectiues against a Reuerend man whome hee ought to haue reuereced How often doth he report Master Doctor in one b In his first reply book in contempt eyther of the degree or of the person 370. times is the least And for this very cause doth the said learned c Doctor Whit-gift in his preface to the Reader Doctor compare the Puritanes to your Anabaptists His wordes are these Those that be in the Ecclesiasticall estate and desirous to keepe the peace of the Church I haue to admâ—nish that they be not discouraged from doing their duties because of the slaunderous reports vnchristian taunts contumelies that our vnquiet bretheren lade them with knowing that it hath been the vsuall practice of all Sectaries and especially of the Anabaptists But to proceed to what end did they thus slaunder them The Germaine The 30. seÌ„blance THeir end and porpose in slaundering and reuiling of their bretheren was a Zuinglius in Ecclesiast as Zuinglius testifieth to winne credit vnto them selues and to discredit those that set them selues against them The Englishman At the selfe same marke haue our rayling Sectaries aymed But tell me why did your Sectaries seeke to winne credit vnto them selues The 3. 1. seÌ„blance The Germaine WHy Surely because as b Bulling aduers Anabapt Bullinger recordeth they attributed much vnto themselves and pleased themselues verie well but other men they condemned and therfore their mindes were full of pride and contempt The Englishman Your Anabaptists come not neere our Sectaries in Pride and contempt for euerie young vpstart doth think himselfe to bee farre wiser then the grauest man in the land They did not long c When they conferred about the Petition to the Kinges Maiesty since single themselues from their fellowe labourers in the Countrye and thought them not worthy to be acquainted with their enterprises None forsooth but such as were of their d Pares cumparibus facillime congregantur owne humor were called to their assemblies or rather conueÌ„ticles But what do I mention their contempt of their fellow Parishpriestes They are so full of seditious singularitie and ouer-weening contempt as that they contemne the reuerend Fathers of our Church and grudge that Bishops are allowed to be of the vpper house of Parliament The Authour of the Humble motion wisheth that in e Humble motion Page 52. steed of the Bishops there might be present in the Parliament-house some wise they account Bishops fooles and graue Ministers of especiall giftes and learning sâ—rted out of all the land c. The Germaine The 32. seÌ„blance YEa but out Anabaptists were so arrogant as that they bragged that they would defend their cause not onely with words but with the shedding of their bloud also The Englishman So haue our Sectaries too Certaine of the thinges say a T. C. Reply page 5 sect vlt. they which we stand vpon are such as that if euery haire of our head were a lâ—fe we ought to afford them for the defence of them The Germaine Your Sectaries I see were verie audatious but yet ours did farre surpasse them The Englishman Wherin I pray you The Germaine The 33. seÌ„blance A Great number of ours assembled themselues together and set downe as b Sleidan Lib. 5. Sleidan witnesseth certaine thinges which they required the Princes and Magistrates of the Prouinces of Germanie to reforme Did your Sectaries euer attempt the like The Englishman Yes to the number of more then a thousand of our Ministers all groaning as vnder a common burden of humane rites and ceremonies did not long since humble themselues at his Majesties feet to be eased and releiued in this behalfe and set downe likewise as your Anabaptists did certaine points which they required his Majestie to reforme But to proceed in order did any of your Ministers joyne with your Anabaptists that were before conformable to the orders of your Church The Germaine The 34. seÌ„blance YEs it hapned that one Bernard Rotman who before had preached against them c vide Sleidan Lib. 10. fell away from the truth and began to shew himselfe a fauourer of their opnions which thing gaue so
great encouragement vnto them as that they challenged the sound Preachers to disputation The Englishman It hapened also amongst vs that diuers Ministers who as they a In their Petition to the King themselues haue confessed had subscribed to the orders of our Church fell away from their former loue and liking therof and joyned with the Puritane-faction But you tell mee that your Anabaptists did challenge your Preachers to dispute with them was there any publique disputation graunted them The Germaine NO and for this cause they greatly complayned and The 35. seÌ„blance cryed out that the truth was oppressed that innocent and Godly men which would haue had all things reformed according to the word of God could not be heard nor haue libertie to speake and that Maister Zuinglius stopped their mouthes and defended his cause not by the word of God but by the authoritie of the Magistrate The Englishman b See their Book intituled the State of the Church of England Page 38. So doe our Sectaries likewise crye out that the Clincke the Gate-house the White-lyon and the Fleete haue beene our onely arguments wherby wee haue prooued our cause these many yeares But I pray you did your Ministers conferre with your Anabaptists did they vse no meanes to reclaime them The Germaine Yes although there was no publique disputatioÌ„ granted them yet did they conferre with them from time to time therby to reclaime them from their errors The Englishman I pray you what kinde of arguments vsed they The Germaine Truely insteed of sound and sustantiall arguments they vsed sophisticall fallacies The Englishman I doe thinke that your Anabaptists doe not come neere our Puritanes in this point The Germaine Why doe you not thinke it The Englishman Because our Puritanes doe thinke that they haue Logicke enough when they haue read and conned ouer Ramus his Logicke and so consequently they often vse fallacies before euer they be aware They cannot forsooth endure to read Aristotles golden Booke de sophisticis Elanchis The Germaine What are some of your Students trained vp in Peter Ramus The Englishman Yes as it was the wisdome of the a Dan. 1. 41 King of Babylon to take young Children of Israell whome hee might teach the learning and tongue of Chaldea rather then their olde men so it is the wisdome of some Ramisticall Tutors to season our greene vessels with this liquor of Puritanisme that they may keepe the taste thereof while life remaineth But not to interrupt your speech what fallacies vsed they The Germaine The 36. seÌ„blance THey vsually reasoned ab eo quod est secundum quid ad â—d quod est simpliciter The Englishman I must intreate you to expresse your minde more plainely that I may vnderstand your meaning The Germaine My meaning is this they vsually reasoned after this manner a vide Bulling aduers anabap fol. 9. 18. Such and such thinges were not in the Apostles dayes therfore they ought not to be in these dayes The Englishman This fallacie hath been the originall and Wel-spring of many both olde and new schismes of olde as of them that called themselues Apostolicos and of the Aerians of new as of the Anabaptists Brownists Puritanes and others To insist onely in the Puritanes we must say b Admon 1. Page 105 they haue Surplesses deuised by Pope Ardian Interrogatories ministred to the Infant God-fathers and God-mothers brought in by Higinus holy Fonts inuented by Pope Pius crossing such like pieces of popery which the Church of God in the Apostles time neuer knewe and therfore they are not to be vsed The Germaine The 37. seÌ„blance OVr c Arist de sophisticis Elench Lib. 1. cap. 5. Anabaptists vsed an other erronious kinde of reasoning which Aristotle calleth To en arche aiteisthai which is when a man frameth vnto himselfe certaine principles of his owne deuising grounded neyther vpon authoritie neyther yet vpon substantiall reason and then vpon the same will conclude his purpose The Englishman This fallacie hath also been the foundation of many both olde and new schismes of olde as of the Aerians who forsooke the Church because therein were some thinges vsed which Heritickes had abused of new as of the Anabaptists Brownists Puritanes and others To insist againe in the Puritanes onely they commit this fallacie in vsing these two false Principles the one when they say that to be inuented by the late Popes which was not inuented by them the other when they say that nothing may be vsed in the Church of Christ which is vsed in the Church of Rome To begin with the first they commit this fallacie when they say that the Surplesse was deuised by Pope Adrian for the Godly Fathers of the Church in the purest estate thereof haue left it in writing how that the Ministers in their times did vsually put on white garments in the execution of diuine Seruice and in the celebration of the blessed Sacraments For proofe heereof I referre you to Saint a Chrysost ad Populum AntiocheÌ„ Hom. 6. Chrisostome to Saint b Hieron Lib. 13. in Ezchiel 44. et in Lib. 1. aduers Pelagium cap. 9. Ierome and to the c Concil Carthaginens can 46. Councell of Carthage at which were present two hundred fourteene Bishops But what do I mention these times it was vsed in the very dayes of the Apostles as is aparant by the testimonie of Hegesippus who as Saint d Hierom. de sriptorib Ecclesiast Ierome saith liued neere the Apostles time His testimony is this e Hegesip lib. 5. Comment when Iames who was sir-named Iustus went into the Temple he was f Linea non lánea veste in duebatur appareled with a linnen not with wollen vesture Againe they commit this fallacie when they say that God-fathers God-mothers were brought in by Higinus for they were in g Dyonis Areopag lib. 7. de Ecclesiast Hierarchia Dyonis Areopagita his time who liued in the time of the Apostles they haue continued in all pure times since as apeareth by sundry learned h Tertul. aduers MarcioneÌ„ lib. 3. Idem de praescrip aduers hareticos at in lib. de resurrectione carnis Chrysost in Psal 14 â— Cyprian lib. 1. post 6. August epist ad Bonifacium et lib. de Rectitud Catholica conuersationis Isider de officij ecclesiast writers They do also commit this fallacie when they say that crossing in Baptisme is a piece of Poperie for it was vsed in the Church of God within the compasse of three hundred yeares after Christ which was long before the Mysterie of iniquitie bid begin to worke and hath beene vsed in the Church of God euer since For the justifying of what I haue said I referre you to the writings of i Tertull. de corona miletis et lib. 3. aduersus Marc. â—â— Tertullian k Iustin Martyr ad Orthodox quast 1. 18. Iustine Martyr l Cyprian
the Altar that we l Admon page 95 receiue it kneeling according to Honorius decree that m Admon page 101 we borrow from Papists these wordes the bodie of our Lord Iesus Christ which was giuen for thee c. and that we haue Gloria in exceisis brought in by Telesphorus But to proceede on in these matters concerning a Admon page 10. 2. the Lords Supper what other opinions held they The Germaine 5 The 56. SeÌ„blance THey held that we must not receiue the Lordes supper with wicked men And for proofe thereof they alleaged 1. Cor. 5. 11. to which place Maister b Calâ—in ad â—â—â— Anabapt Caluin answereth thus Paul doth forbid to eate with those that liue dissolutely That pertaineth to priuate conuersation not to the publike Communion But will some say if it bee not lawfull for a Chrictian man to keepe companie with him that is wicked for corporall meate much lesse may bee receiue with him the Lordes bread I answere that it is in our power whether weâ— may be familiarly conuersant with the wicked or no and therefore ought euery one to â—he from them but it is not so in our power to receiue the Communion or not to receiue it therefore the reason is not all one wee must therefore note that if the Church doe tollerate and suffer an vnworthy man he shall doe well that knowing him to be such a one doth abstaine from his companie as much as hee can so that his doing make no schisme or separation in the Church The Englishman The c Admon page 102. Admonitors obiected the selfe same place to the same ende and purpose that your Anabaptists did and our late d In his defence of the answere to the Admon Page 603. Archbishoppe answerod them as Maister Caluin answered the Anabaptists But not to discourse any longer about the administration of the Sacraments did not your Anabaptists finde fault with your solemnization of Matrimony The Germane Yes they did indeede The Englishman What I pray you The Germane The 57. SeÌ„blance SAint a Chrisost in 1. ad Tim. homil 9. Chrysostome an auncient Father reporteth how that in his daies those Maidens that kept their virginitie vsed to weare a Garland vpon the day of their marriages in token that they had ouercome the flesh and the lustes thereof This ceremonie as b Zanchius de matrim cap 2. Zanchius truly relateth we retaine still in Germany and that for these three speciall cause viz. 1. Because it is as hath beene proued by the testimony of S. Chrysostome of great antiquitie in the Church of God 2. Because experience teacheth vs that it doth much good in our Countrie for Maidens with vs doe striue for the Garland and so consequently to keepe themselues Virgins least they should bee married without a Garland 3. Because it hath for a long time beene vsed in our countrie and therefore none our Sectaries excepted doe speak against it for as c Ibid Zanchius speaketh in our behalfe res externae c. thinges externall which are not repugnaâ—t to the word of God which neither are superstitious nor obsceane are to be ebserued according to the custome of the Countrie wherein we liue The Englishman The Ring in Matrimonie is as auncient a ceremonie as the Garland is for d Tertul in appol cap. 6. Tertullian who liued almost two hundred yeares before S. Chrysostome his time maketh mention of it Yea I make no question but that it was in vse in the very daies of our Sauiour Christ for Christ himselfe as S. e Iubet annuluÌ„ reddi desponsationis in signe et nuptiarum pignus chrysost in Homil de patre et duobus filiis Chrysostome hath well obserued alludeth vnto it in that part of the Parable Luke 15. 22. then the Father said to his seruant bring forth the bestrobe and put it on him and put a Ring on his hand All which notwith-standing our Sectaries do not rest satisfied but do make sute b See their petition to the King that the Ring in Mariage may be corrected But to leaue the solemnization of Matrimony what did your Anabaptists teach concerning excommunication The Germaine THey taught that Excommunication is a matter of The 58. SeÌ„blance saluation and that there is no true Church where no Excommunication is This the Anabaptists doe vrge saith c Bullinger lib. 6. aduers Anabapt Bullinger that there is no true Church acceptable vnto God where there is no Excommunication c. To these therefore we answere that the Church of Corinth was a true Church and so acknowledged of Saint Paul to be 1. Cor. 1. before there was any vse of Excommunication in it The Englishman Our Puritanes doe herein as it seemeth little differ from your Anabaptists for their chiefe Doctor d T C. reply page 14. faith that excoÌ„munication and other censures of the Church are matters of saluation But what other faults found your Anabaptists with the Church of Germanie The Germane The 59. SeÌ„blance WHat others truly they e Vide Bulling fol. 18. held it to be no Church at all and said in plaine tearmes that it was not the true Church of Christ The Englishman So haue our Sectaries likewise saide that our Church is not the true Church of Christ I will acquaint you with their words f Adm. 1. page 34. May it please your wisdoms to vnderstand that we in England are so farre off from hauing a Church reformed according to the prescript of Gods word that as yet wee are not come to the outward face of the same But tell me I pray you had your Sectaries no cause at all to find fault with your Church was there no olde Popish trash remaining in it Had you no Reliques of superstition amongst you The Germane The 60. SeÌ„blance No but they construed indeede euery thing in the worst part for which cause Zuinglius saith thus of them a Zuinglius in ecclesiast If they were sent of God they would haue construed in the best part these externall things c. The Englishman The like may we say of our Sectaries for ther is scarce any thing in our booke of common Prayer which they haue not construed in the worst part To acquaint you with some particulars they make simple people beleeue that we absolue men from their sins when as indeed we doe onely in the name of God according to his b Iehn 20. 23 word pronounce to a peniteÌ„t sinner that he is absolued pardoned and forgiuen They do also beare the world in hand that we vse confirmation as a Sacrament that we adde it to make Baptisme perfect when as they know I appeale to their own consciences that confirmation now vsed in our Church is not to make Baptisme perfect but partly to try how the suerties haue performed that which was enioyned them when the children were baptized and partly that
Nazarens Beguardines Ebionites Catobabdites Catharists Enthusiasts Donatists Iouianists Brownists and Papists The Protestant COME neighbour let vs shake handes and be friendes The Puritane Shake hands with a Formalist The Protestant Why not with a Formalist you will not sticke to shake hands with a Papist The Puritane Doe we shake hands with the Papists c These are T. C. his wordes pag. 7. sect Sâ—lt Whilest you compare vs to the Anabaptists some friend of yours might thinke that you said truely because such alwayes seeking darke and solitarie places might happily haue some fauourers which are not knowne But when you ioyne vs with the Papists which are commonly knowne to all men whose Doctrine wee impugne as well as you whose markes and badges we can lesse away with then you hose company we flie more then you whose punishment wee haue called for more then you for your part haue done and therefore are condemned of them as cruell when you often times cary away in the name of mildenes and moderation which for sooth knowe no commaundement in the Scriptures to put Heretickes to death when I say you ioyne vs thus with the Papist you doe not onely loose your credit in these vntrue surmises wherein I trust with the indifferent reader you neuer had any but you make all other thinges suspected which you affirme so that you giue men occasion to take vp the common prouerbe against you I WILL TRVSTE YOV NO FVRTHER THEN I SEE YOV The Protestant Pilate and Herod were at great ods about priuate matters betweene themselues but wheÌ„ they had to deale with Christ they could then become friendes conioyne together for his destruction the Pharisies and Saduces were of contrary sects yet were they both enemies to Christ his Doctrine The Anabaptists agreed not with the Papists yet they both sought to deface the church of Christ did cleane together in their deuises against Christ as the Skales of Leuiathan euen so you though ye be at enmitie with the papists though you impugne their Doctrine though ye cannot away with their markes and badges though ye flye their company though ye call for their punishment yet in defacing deprauing of this Church of England you fully ioyne with theÌ„ against vs. So that as there was a day wheÌ„ Herod and Pilate were made friends so there is I see a day when Papists Puritanes are made friends And for this cause did our reuerend Bretheren of the Vniuersitie of Oxford a In their Epist dedicatory before their answere to the Petition obserued this seauen-folde semblance betwixt you and the Papists 1. You both entitle your selues the Kinges afflicted subiects and aboue all other his deuoted Seruants 2. You both pretend an enforcement of a speedye recourse to his Maiesty for a present redresse and reformation 3. You both complaine of being ouer-whelmed with induring persecution through losse of liuing and libertie 4. You both ground your Doctrine and Discipline vppon the sacred Text of Gods word and Gospell 5. You both condemne the obedience of vs Protestants to the lawes established to be not for conscience and zeale but for morall honestie and feare of temporall punishment say the Papists for their owne quiet credit profit in the world say you 6. You both renounce a publike alteration and dissolution of the state ecclesiasticall 7. You both denie that you exhibite your petitions with a tumultuous spirit or with a disloyall and schismaticall minde The Puritane What tell you mee of these things these are but matters of circumstance but haue you obserued any semblance in any matter of substance I tell you plainelye that wee defie the Pope and his Religion we say that he is Antichrist because he aduaunceth himselfe aboue all that is called God For wheÌ„ Kinges and Emperors to whome the name of God is communicated doe comeinto the presence of his holynes they b Lib. cerem 1. sect 5. cap. 3 Lab. 3. sect 1 cap. 3. must forsooth after obeysance done in three seuerall distances fall downe before him and kisse his feete And if c lib. 1. cerim sect 2. cap. 3. they be in presence when he taketh horse the chiefest of them must holde his right stirrop and likewise when he lighteth off doe the same Take an example of his insolent and Antichrist aÌ„ behauiour Pope a Naucler generat 40. Alexander the third excommunicated the Emperour Fredricke Barbarossa and tooke his Sonne prisoner in Venice And when he came into the Church of Saint Marke there to the end that hee might bee absolued and his Sonne restored the Pope hauing commaunded him to prostrate himselfe vpon the ground so to aske pardon sette his foote in the necke of the said Emperour saying it is written Super aspidem basiliscum ambulabis conculcabis Leonem Dracaonem The Protestant If the Doctrine of your consistorians and disciplinarians might take place our Kinges of England I feare would in short time bee brought to the like slauerye for doe not they teach that Princes ought to submit themselues to the Seniors of the Church and that they ought to be content to bee ruled and gouerned to bee punished and corrected to bee excommunicated and absolued by their discretion and at their pleasure Christian Princes must remember saith T. C b T. C. page 144. sect 1. to subiect themselues vnto the Church to submit their Scepters to throwe downe their Crowne before the Church yea to licke the dust of the feete of the Church Doth not this Puritan-popish Doctrine smell of Antichristianisme But to proceede wherein doe your chiefe writers dissent from the Popish writers The Puritane Wherein doe we not The Protestant Insist in some particulars The Puritane Cardinall c Bellar. de concil cap. 12. Bellarmine d Cardill in defens concil Trident. dis 1. Cardill e Harding in confut apol Anglic. parte 5. cap. 6 sect â— Harding and the rest of the Popish Doctors teach that Councels and Synods may be assembled without the Knowledge of the Emperour The Protestant Doe not your Doctors teach the same Doctrine haue they not had many assemblies and classicall Synodes wherunto the authorizement of the Prince was not had is not their opinion answerable to their practise The Puritane a Bellar. lib. 1. de concil cap. 19. Iohannes de turre crematae lib. 3. de ecclcs cap. 22. cardill in disput 2. de concill The Papists also teach that the Emperour ought not to be ouer-ruler or determiner in Councels and Synods The Protestant Doth not T. C. teach the selfe same Doctrine b T. C. Lib 2 pag. 165. 154 No ciuill Magestrate saith he in Councels or Assemblies for Church matters can either be chiefe moderator ouer-ruler Iudge or determiner The Puritane Yea but doe any of our teachers deny the Kings supremacy as the Papists doe The Protestant What say you to T. C. who speaketh moste cleerelye and seemeth to be