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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	child_n	father_n	sin_n	2,149	5	5.2651	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A09441	The churches plea for her right, or, A reply to an answer made of Mr. Iohn Paget against William Best and others wherein the maine points of our present differences are handled and the principall causes of our troubles declared / published by William Best.	Best, William, fl. 1635.; Paget, John, d. 1640. Answer to the unjust complaints of William Best.	1635 (1635)	STC 1973.5; ESTC S151	93,797	110

If a father should withhold from his children seasonable and holesome food were it not a sufficient cause of weeping and mourning For our parts wee cannot judge otherwise of his caraige towards us howsoever hee blesseth himself in it The 11 and last injury is to all that take pleasure in these offences hee being a meanes to harden them in sinne Answ This is onely a begging againe of the question and therefore it is answered before For conclusion then here I may in his owne words say Pag. 32. Such reproaches are quicklie broched but the guilt of them is not so quicklie and easilie taken away Besides these I find many other untruths and reproaches laid upon me in his Booke unto all which I shall give answer in time But as for the writer of them I will say no more but that which the Reader shall find by experience Pro. 25.28 That as abattered city without walles so is hee that cannot rule his affections for his eger desire to fasten upon us hee cared not what hath left his writings naked without all reasonable and honest defence SECTION IV. IN this Section my purpose is to examen Mr. Pagets answers unto certaine Scriptures alleaged by us and Mr. Davenport in our writings First to proove that Christ hath given full power unto every particular Congregation to chuse freelie their owne Ministers wee mentioned Act. 6.3 and 14.23 Mr. Paget to refute us deviseth 8 Answers Pag. 18.19.20.21.22 amongst which there is not one that answereth to the thing at all nor serves his turne in the least for which hee bringeth it It is not necessary that I should here write downe all his words I will therefore onely take the substance of them which is thus 1. Wee accuse other Ministers besides himself 2. The order against which wee complaine hath bene formerlie observed in our Church 3. Wee are partiall because wee disliked not the thing sooner 4. Hee tells us what order the Synods have devised about the calling of Ministers 5. Wee are taught a thing never doubted of that the Elders ought to goe before the people in all the publick actions of the Church 6. If this be not so great absurditie will follow 7. If wee were apart well examined hee assures himself that few of us would be found to agree with one another touching the due order of elections 8. It is an heinous crime no lesse then sacriledge to deprive the Church of her lawfull power But is this to answer or rather in truth to play the Trifler For what are these 8 Replies but so many shifts and windings even miserable starting holes and scope doores for him to fly out at doth hee not here turne his backe upon the case as not willing to stand to it I wish hee would once againe read our Scriptures and his answer to them and to perswade him hereto I will presume though I looke to be requited with shrewd words for my labour to propose it to his view in this manner If the complaint made by William Best and the Subscribers with him be against Mr. Paget others If the order against which they complaine be ancient If they haue done ill in not blaming the thing till now If the Synods haue prescribed and order of calling Ministers If the Elders ought to goe before the Church in all publike actions If hurt will follow otherwise If the Complaynants cannot agree among themselves touching the due order of elections In short if it be a great sinne to deprive the Church of her due power Then doe not these Scriptures Act. 6.3 and 14.23 proove that Christ hath given full power to his Church to chuse freely their owne Ministers But the first is true Therefore the second Mr. Paget needs not to take it amisse that I have syllogistically framed this argument for him For beleeve it unlesse it goe this way a man may say of his reasoning here as of them in the Proverbe Hee asked for hookes and they say they have no mattocks Notwithstanding I doe not impute this to his insufficiency but to the badnes of his case Hee perceiving in likelyhood that these Scriptures made for us and against him thought of a course how to put them by and save his owne credit too and that was by holding his Reader in a long talke For will not many thinke when they shall read 7 or 8 scoore lines writen to confute 3 or 4. But the thing is soundly done 2. For the matter in pag. 20. I would willingly know why he hath writen a whole side to proove that the Gouvernours of the Church ought to goe before c. hath this thing ever bene in question Knoweth hee not that our difference is not about our owne Eldership But whither Officers of other Churches have ought to doe as by power with the administrations of our Congregation This indeed wee deny but nothing els Why therefore doth hee spend time in unncecessary talke If his heart be upright and hee thinke his case good let him speake out plainely and directly in it VVee affirme that the election and ordination of all Ecclesiasticall Officers ought necessarily to be made by the free chose of the Congregation wherein they are to administer and none else have a calling to meddle therewith For this wee bring the word of God Act. 6.3 and 14.23 Not wrested to serve our Turne but understood in that sence which the learned expound it as Cartwright a Refut Rbem on Act. 14.23 Bates b Pag. 66. Vdal c Demonst discip pag. 24.25 Danaeus d In 1 Tim. c. 5. p. 350. Fenner e Sacr. Theol. l. 7. c. 10. pag. 106. Polanus f Syntag. l. 7. c. 16. p. 543 Piscator g In Act. 6. Observ 2. Beza h Annot. in Act. 14.23 the Authors of the admonition to the Parliament i Lib. 1. p. 3 Church gouvernment k Pag. 40. Necessity of Discipline l Pag. 28. Defence of Ecclesiasticall Discipline m Pag. 40. and many others But Mr. Pagets profession and practise is otherwise Hee sayth * Preface that particular Congregations are not independent but stand under other Ecclesiasticall authority out of themselves And to have his Reader to be of the same mind with him hee tels him in pag. 19. and 66. that the Synods in these Countries have agreed to have it so If hee had told us and prooved it that Christ or his Apostles had so commaunded wee would haue embraced it forthwith but not the sooner because men have done it Our reasons are these 1. It doth not belong unto Synods as the Learned * Beza de Eccles c. 5. p. 125. Piscat Thes Theolog. loc 23. p. 372. Iusti. Mart. n Dial. cum i Tripho affirme to make new Articles of Religion nor to bring any thing into Gods house which hee hath not commaunded in his word Ministers sayth one ‡ D. Whita cont 4. quoe

nothing in them tending that way whereto you stretch them wee say and this is the most that the Magistrates will have us to take one that can speake Dutch and one in this Countrie Now may not they require so much and wee doe it and yet wee keepe still our power If Mr. Paget had but read our words charitably hee should haue seene that which hee inferreth from them to be directly in them contradicted For marke all Readers that haue sence wee say the Magistrates will have us to take one c. doth it not then follow that wee confesse they permit us to use the libertie and power which Christ hath given us yea encourage us to it yet so as wee chuse a man to their liking For conclusion then I shall exspect in his next Booke that hee either blot out this slaunder or make acknowledgement of his fault herein and to induce him the more unto it I wish him to read the Wise-mans saying Devise not evill against thy Neighbour Prov. 3.29 seeing hee dwelleth securelie by thee Lastly let it be noted how unprofitable hee is unto the peace of this Citie in that hee seeketh by untrue reports to set debate betwene the Rulers and people The Scripture saith In the multitude of people is the Kings honour As it is a fathers glory to haue a large posterity a shepheards prayse a great flock so it is a Gouvernours dignity and credit to exercise authority over many faithfull subjects But certain it is Mr. Paget hath bene an occasion not onely to drive some families hence but also a principall hinderer of many and those very rich in the world from coming hither the which thing tendeth unto the great hurt both of Church and Common-wealth and what I here speake I can make it good by many faithfull and honest witnesses The 8 injury is to all the Reformed Churches in publishing complaints against such lawfull authoritie as is exercised by them Answ 1. VVhen M. Paget by the Scriptures hath prooved the matters in controversy betweene us lawfull viz. the power of the Classis and his riffrafe Baptisme then I will by Gods grace acknowledge my fault herein till then I shall alwayes professe that hee hath borne false witnesse against his neighbour A thing in his writings too common with him 2. Observe here how Mr. Paget professeth plain Brownisme and condemneth the Church of England and that hee doth so I proove it thus All Reformed Churches use a Classicall gouvernment so saith hee But the English Church useth no such Therefore it is no Reformed Church and so consequentlie false VVhat Apologie hee can make to vindicate his reputation I yet know not but it may be wee shall see something of it in his next booke The 9 injury that hee taxeth me with is to all that seeke Reformation and desire the same Discipline that is practised in these Churches this their Booke being a stumbling block in the way Answ 1. I suppose by the seekers here after his Discipline hee meaneth the English non-conformists Now in this hee abuseth them and his Readers too for howsoever they would willingly shake off the Prelates yoke notwithstanding it is not to come under his Classicall authoritie but rather to erect that single uncompounded Policie which hee seemes to gibe at whereby particular Congregations are made to be independent Not standing under any other Ecclesiasticall authority out of themselves And that this is so I can proove it by many testimonies In a certain booke set out under the name of all the unconformable Ministers in the Realme they write thus Wee confine * Protestat King suprem pag. 12.13 and bind all Ecclesiasticall power within the limits onely of one particular Congregation Holding that the greatest Ecclesiasticall power ought not to streitch beyond the same and that it is an arrogating of Princelie supremacie * Marke this for any Ecclesiasticall person or persons to take upon themselves Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction over many Churches And a little after Wee hold that those Ecclesiasticall persons that make claime to greater power and authoritie then this especiallie that make claime Iure Divino * This Mr. Paget doth of power and Iurisdiction to meddle with other Churches then that one Congregation of which they are or ought to be members doe usurpe upon the supremacie of the civill Magistrate c. The Refuter of D. Downames Sermon handleth this point largely and prooveth from the Scriptures and best writers that every particular Congregation Repl 1. l. 3. p. 185. l. 1. part 2. p. 22 23.68 ought to haue absolute gouvernment in it self and that no Officer by vertue of his office may meddle with the affaires and matters of any Church except his owne To these wee will add D. Fulke a man famous and of rare learning in his Learned Discours of Ecclestasticall Gouvernment hee saith There ought to be in every Church an Elde ship Pag. 84. which ought to have the hearing examination and determining of all * Note this matters pertayning to the Discipline and Gouvernment of that Congregation I could name many more but it needs not specially because I shall have occasion to speake againe of the thing in another place Yet this may not be forgotten VVhereas there are many hundreds of our Country-men in New-England they have not erected there any Classicall Gouvernment but every particular Church exerciseth her owne I say within her self wholy which is a sure argument to proove that the foreward professours in England approove not of this kind of gouvernment here pleaded for although hee would feigne haue his Reader to thinke so 2. Whereas hee saith that our Booke is a stumbling block laid in the way of Reformation I suppose it will appeare so farre otherwise as that hee himself will be found chiefly in fault this way And therefore I wish him to be well advised what hee writes hereafter least the reasons which hee layeth downe for his gouverning of many Churches be applyed by the Popes men unto the Hierarchy and to as good purpose too And truely I cannot see but this may well be so considering that both their Disciplines tend unto the taking away of the Churches Right the difference is In the Hierarchy one doth it In the Classes more notwithstanding in this they joyne together viz. in depriving Churches of their due and lawfull power Tenthly hee saith I am injurious to all that are grieved for the offence arising by this fact hee being the cause of their grief Answ 1. If any grieve to see errour discovered the truth cleared good men justifyed unjust doers reprooved it is their fault and sinne But the writings published by me serve for this end and use 2. If any haue given occasion unto others of sorrow it is principally himself in that he hath by unlawfull meanes keept from us the profitable preaching of the mord whereby wee should have bene much furthered in the way to life and glory

Congregation Therefore no Pastour can rightly administer the Sacraments but in his owne Congregation The last of this argument which onely may be doubted of I proove thus That which is a proper worke of an Apostle is not to be done by any ordinarie Minister To administer officiallie in more Congregations then one is a proper worke of an Apostle Therefore c. The proposition is certain the assumption is taught generally by learned men For in this very thing they doe distinguish ordinary Ministers from Apostles the first being tyed to one onely Flock The later having power and libertie to exercise their Ministerie any where Plainly to this purpose writeth D. Whitaker The Apostles saith hee received the kees from Christ and power of teaching and remitting sinnes as common Bishops of the whole World but all others of their owne Churches In these things therefore which the Apostles had extraordinarily Bishops succeed them not that is in that power which is truely and properly Apostolicall Marke what hee counteth Apostolicall namely to be a common Bishop that is to exercise a power in more Churches then one Here I will passe over Rom. 14.5.23 because I find nothing in his answer which concerneth the matter in controversie betweene us The Scriptures following are these viz. Act. 11.21.26 Gen. 17.10 Rom. 4.11 Act. 2.39 But before hee comes to answer those Scriptures in particular hee makes a great complaint unto the Reader against Mr. Davenport and his opposite Brethren for some unjust doing in the question betweene them and their trespasse is because they have sayd promiscuous baptizing of all infants without difference Hence hee rayseth this observation A man that reads their writings might easilie be brought to doubt whither Turkes or Iewes Mahometists or Heathens or infidelles of what Nation or sect soever did sometime present their children to baptisme and that it was the custome of the Dutch Church to baptise such being presented Answ I will not contend with him whither it may be possible that any should be such Simplicians as to make so groundles an inference But this I say and will proove it also that Mr. Paget goes about to deceive his Readers in that hee would have them to conceive that it is not their manner to baptise all infants brought to them but they make a distinction admit some others not And whither this be so I appeale to his owne conscience are not Bastards received constantly to Baptisme If the Parents are knowne to be drunkards swearers blasphemers excommunicates Hereticks c. notwithstanding their children are still baptised if they are brought to the Congregation Yea more then this If the Parents come not at all to nod the head of which thing wee shall speake hereafter yet this hinders not the infants baptising for it is enought if a girrle of 16 or 17 yeares doe bring it and there bow with the rest to some questions propounded to them Now then let all judicious Readers judge If wee had not just cause to name it a promiscuous baptising Seeing as I said those which are not members of any Congregation nor worship God in any Congregation but live rather without God in the world make a mocke of sin and count it their grace that they are graceles even those vile varlets when they will may haue their seed baptised I say as freely and ordinarily as those which are members and men knowne to feare God As for his mentioning of Turkes Iewes c. it is vainely done for all know that such doe not present their children to our baptisme and therefore I wish him hereafter rather in sincerity to seeke the truth then with shifts cavills and evasions the maintenance of his case and credit Notwithstanding this I must tell him I am verily perswaded that it would require all the witt and skill Mr. Paget hath to proove that such Parents whose children hee and others sometime baptise are not a great deale worse in life and conversation then many Iewes Turkes and Heathens The next thing undertaken by Mr. Paget is to proove that men may be reputed in the Covenant by testification of their faith and repentance though it were by a word or gesture of the body witnessing their consent thereunto so farre as to procure the admission of their infants to have the seale of circumcision or Baptisme as appeareth from the holy records Answ 1. Hee layeth downe here a manifest untruth to speake the best of it in affirming that the Iewes under the Law might lawfully admit infants to the seale of circumcision before the Parents of them were joyned actuall members to that visible Church For this I gather to be his meaning from these words So farre as to procure the admission of their infants to have the seale of Circumcision Besides it must either thus be understood or hee understood not his owne saying For our question respects onely such infants whose Parents are not joyned to any Church And therefore this must needs hold a just proportion with it Now whither this be not a great presumption in him let all judge that are wise to sobriety for to affirme a thing against the expresse commaundement of God and continuall practise of the Saints of purpose to uphold by it and unlawfull and sinfull practise Hee that feares the Lord and his righteous judgements as hee ought will take heed not to devise such unsounds tenets 2. For the 20 Scriptures or more which hee hath here quoted the truth is Pag. 152. not one of them either hurts our case or helpes his For 1. I would know of him whither to say Yea Amen so be it whereby an externall profession of faith love and thankfullnes is shewed towards God his meaning be that this consisteth in the pronunciation of the letters syllables or words Againe whither by nodding with the head hee intendeth simply the gesture without any respect to the fitnes of the doer of it If hee say hee meanes nothing saving bare speaking and bare bowing Then I say it is a blasphemous saying for it is possible that a bird or a beast may doe so much But on the contrary if hee say hee respecteth the qualification and condition of the speakers and nodders then his whole matter fals to the ground because the speakerss and nodders in question are altogether for the present unfit and uncapable to performe any Religious worke for as I sayd they are knowne to deny God in workes Psal 50. and hate to be reformed what then haue such to doe to take Gods word into their mouth or if they would yet what calling hath Mr. Paget to put such a thing upon them Briefly though hee will doe it yet what reason haue wee to repute them for all this in the Covenant seeing wee find in Scripture no warrant to justify the action 2. Be it granted that the Church and people of God in some cases haue declared their consent by saying Yea Amen so be it or by a gesture