A MYLD AND IVST DEFENCE OF CERTEYNE ARGVMENTS AT THE LAST SESSION OF Parliament directed to that most Honorable High Court in behalfe of the Ministers suspended and deprived c for not Subscribing and Conforming themselues etc. AGAINST AN INTEMPERAT AND VNIVST CONSIDERATIon of them by M. Gabril Powell The chiefe and generall contents wherof are breefely layd downe immediatly after the Epistle G. Powell Let there be no strife I praye thee betweene thee and me for we be brethren Gen. 30 8. Reply The wordes of his mouth were softer then butter yet warre is in his heart His wordes were more gentle then oyle yet they were swords Psal 55 21. Out of one mouth proceedeth blessing cursing my brethren these things ought not to be so Iames 3.10 My litle children let vs not loue in word neyther in tongue only but in deed and in truth 1 Ioh 3 18 Imprinted 1606. TO THE RIGHT HONORABLE AND MOST CHRISTIAN HIGH COVRT OF PARliament which lately was and shortly agayne is to be assembled RIght Honorable and most Christian Senat as at your last Session there were certayne Arguments directed unto You for the quickening of your godly Zeale to speake not onely boldly but also in all humilitie to the Kings most excellent Maiestie for the Ministers suspended and deprived for not Subscribing and Conformyng themselues to some present Constitutions and as ye did graciously accept of the sayd Arguments and most worthily acquite your selues to the utmost of your powers touching the matter pleaded for by them so now vouchsafe I most humblie beseech you the like favorable acceptance of a sober modest and iust defence of the same Arguments against a late uncharitable unchristian bitter calumnious and cavilling answer published under the title of A consideration of them by M. Gabril Powel I am bold in steed of the author himselfe of the Arguments to take the defence of them upon me and to present them to your Honors because M. Powel himselfe in his said pretended answer unto them hath so often referred the iudgment of the Arguments of his consideration of them and of the whole cause to your most graue and gracious company Yea there is nothing that I am more willing unto or which I doe more earnestly desire then that the cause betwixt M. Powel and all those for whom he pleadeth on the one parte and the author of the Arguments and me the defendant with all other in whose behalfe we speake on the other parte might be iudicioussy and equally heard at the barre of your most Christian Court But the truth is because we desire and endeavor this hinc illae lacrymae Hence is their chiefe hatred of us their great contention with us and their bitter writing against us Notwithstanding though now we be uniustly charged as writing from Cimerian darknes for concealing our names yet if publike libertie might be granted to both parts to stand before your iudgment seat there freely to plead debate the cause by the word of God and that neither the worldly might and pompe of our adversaries nor our meannes and basenes might be respected but the truth it selfe simplie considered and regarded we would also accoumpt it as a singular mercy of God and as a speciall favor of you towards us in that behalfe In the meane time I doe in all humility referr the Argumēts togeather with the defence of them to your graue and iudicious consideration against your next meeting in Parliament not doubting but that the equitie of the cause and the innocencie of our selues will therby be so apparant unto you that though before som perhaps among you did thinke the one not to be so iust and the other not so free from all blame yet when ye shall agayne assemble ye will all with one mouth as one man both iustifie the cause and also speake more then ever before ye haue don for favor unto vs and to our people betwixt whom the bond before made by the Church and sealed by the holy Ghost in the effects of our Ministery cannot by any Lordly Episcopall severity be iustly dissolved I doe further likewise humblie craue your Honorable lawfull favor more specially towards me if at any time I shall be discovered against all those that shall not well brooke the sober and modest taxing of their corruptions in this defence especially considering the same is not done of any contentious minde but onely in loue of the truth to support it against those that deprave it and in regard of our owne good names to mainteyne our owne innocency against those that under the name of brethren doe most unbrotherly disgrace us Moreover if any thing in this defence following or in the Arguments themselues by the malice of any shal be wrested and perverted thereby also to wrest and pervert the law to the danger of the severall authors of the one or the other being found out may it likewise please you in all lawfull and righteous manner to put forth your selues for protection of the sayd authors as chiefly because such wresting of words and perverting of iudgment may procure Gods iudgments against themselues that shall so offend and against the whole land so likewise because to speake in such matters and for such persons whatsoever the answerer saith to the contrary shall not only bring much peace comfort to such speakers themselues but shall also be beneficiall to the whole land as is shewed in the Arguments nothing infringed or weakened by all M. Powels opposition unto them Yea let this consideration be a third reason to moue you the rather so to speake viz. that if one man had the divinity knowledge in law as also all other learning wit and wisdom of all men yet could he not so warily and circumspectly write in all things but that some wrangler or other instructed and set a worke by the serpent that is more subtle not onely then all beasts but also then all men now living on the earth might and would find some matter or other wherby to molest and trouble him I had thought much more to haue enlarged this my preface but the prolixity of the defence it selfe much exceeded my first purpos I will here conclude both humblie and with all thanks to God to your selues acknowledging your most religious gracious endeavors at your last Session for the cause and for the persons pleaded for in the argumēts and most heartily instantly likewise praying for you yours as Nehemiah Nehem 5 19 13 4 prayed for himselfe viz. that God in goodnes would remember you and yours according to all that ye haue doone for vs and that he will never wype out your kindnes that ye haue shewed on the house of your God and on the officers thereof A BREEFE NOTE OF SOME OF THE CHIEFE generall poynts handled in this defence following THat the author of the Arguments is falsly accused to impute any dissembling or equivocating to the
Kings most excellent Majesty but that in all things he hath conceaved and written most reverently Christiantly and duetifully of his Majestie 2 That he is as vntruely charged with any vndutifull speeches against the Nobility or any other that haue obeyed his Majesties procedings 3 That the Ministers pleaded for are not refractary superstitious or schismaticall neyther confronters of the Magistrat or troublers of the state but that these and other the like imputations doe rather belong to their accusers 4 That our Churches of England are in nothing so glorious state as is pretended by M. Powel and other prelaticall persons but rather in divers respects and for divers parts thereof in lamentable condition 5 That the late proceedings of the Prelats against such Ministers for not subscribing conforming etc that many of the late Canons or cōstitutions are contrary to the word of God the lawes of this Realme 6 That the oth likewise Ex Officio is repugnant to the lawes of this Realme yea abrogated by them only inforced by forreyne Canons 7 That the obedience loyaltie of the Ministers for conscience of Gods word not conforming themselues is as good as of the greatest conformitans yea that their not conforming thēselues in that respect maketh more then conformity for the good safetie of his Majestie 8 That the Considerer of the arguments in his inconsiderat consideration of them hath most unreverently and undutifully censured the High Court of Parliament for their late most religious indeavors in behalfe of the Ministers pleaded for in the sayd Arguments 9 That the Ministers soe deprived doe not forsake their callings 10 That although the number of the Ministers so deprived be but smal in comparison of other yet the deprivation of them the loss of their Ministery is dangerous for the whole Church in this kingdome 11 That the Considerer of the arguments ofttimes offendeth in thos things which unjustly he objecteth unto the author of the arguments viz in sophistications in generall and particularly in begging of the question as also in equivocations in vayne repetitions of the same things for encreasing of his volume and lastly incontradicting himselfe yea sometyme in one and the same place 12 That he and other the Prelats most striving for conformity doe attribut more to conformitie then to any more materiall principall duties of the Ministery expresly commanded by God A DEFENCE OF THE ARGVMENTES Lately directed to the High Court of Parliament for the Ministers silenced ect against the answer unto them by M. Gabriel Powell All though the late answer of M. Powell to the Arguments in the title mentioned for moment of matter be not such that either any disgrace of the sayd Arguments or of the cause it selfe with any wise and judicious reader neede to be feared thereby or that therefore the said answer should haue reply thereunto yet for their sake that are not so judicious and that neither the answerer himselfe neither any other by our silence may haue any cause to insult and triumph as having wonne some great field and gotten some worthy victory I haue presumed to take upon me the replying thereunto insteed of the author himselfe Heerein notwithstanding the answerer his scoffing at our triobular Pamphlets I will labour as much as I may for brevity that so the Christian reader may the lesse behindred from his other waighty affayres For this cause I nether will reply to the whole answer neither will cause the sayd answer to be wholly reprinted but will onely most breifly collect such things as may most seeme to requyre reply but yet with such faithfullnes that the answerer shall haue no just cause to complayne of the sayd collections as unjust or not agreeyng to his owne words The marginall notes I will reply unto by themselues and that according to the letters prefixed unto them and the rest that he writeth in that order they are by himselfe set downe But before I proceede any further let me admonish M. Powel of one fault in him and common to many other of that side that is to attribute that to all of vs which is done by any one I meane in things which they thinke to be blameable These Arguments were written by one alone yet whatsoever he can by hooke or crooke gather as worthy of rebuke or shew of rebuke that he imputeth to all that craue any favour In good thīgs they deale not so but that which is well sayd or done by one is imputed to one onely so that the rest fare not the better thereby My humble desire therfore is that howsoever thes men deale with vs yet that other would deale otherwise viz. That if there be any thing blamable in the Arguments or in any other one mans writing of our side it may be taken as the fault onely of one and not imputed to all Especially let this be considered when there is no fault at all but onely by surmise and upon uncharitable misconstruyng wresting of a mans words It was the fault of Saule for the supposed offence of Abimelech to kill both him and also all the rest of the Lords Preists It was the sinne of Haman for the suspected pride of Mordecai in not bowyng unto him to hate him all the Iewes and to plot and contriue the ruine of them all So the Apostle noteth it as a fault of the heathen that knew not God and were given over to a reprobate mind to take all things in the evill part Rom. 1.24 Let this therefore be the sinne of such wicked men but let all true Christians that loue and feare the Lord be free therof Now to proceed I will beginne with the preface TOuching the preface there being not much therein which is not afterward mentioned in the rest of the booke I may the more cursorily passe and rune it over The first poynt here to be observed as also in the place of scripture subscribed to the title Gen. 13.8 Is that he calleth vs brethren as if he did so account and regard us Notwithstandidg whether he doe any otherwise or with any other minde so call us then only as Ioab called Amasae his brother with his mouth and yet at the same instant killed him with his hand 2 Sam. 20 9. I leaue it to be judged by his opposition to our petition by his most unchristian vncharitable raylings revilyngs reproches scoffs as also by his most unjust collections as directly contrary to the words much more to the meaning of the author of the said Arguments so likwise to all reason common sense Sharpnes bitternes are the common weapons and principall armour of that side which is an evidence of the badnes of their cause and no lesse testimony of the goodnes of ours For truth and righteousnes can support themselues without any such meanes Notwithstanding in this kind this answerer hath farre exceeded many other yea he may well be acknowledged to haue
wonne the spurres from many other They commonly object this fault unto us and it may be some one of his private motion and disposition doth a litle somtyme offend this way to the greife of the rest that favor the cause But if all speeches of that kind that haue ever been used by any of our side were gathered into one truely and without any wresting they would not a mount to the number proportionably that is apparant and evident in this answer The which fault is so much the greater because the arguments are propounded with all temperance without any just occasion to provoke him except it be as a weake stomake is sicke with the best and most wholsome meate Notwithstandyng I do the lesse marveile hereat because as the more extreame the loue of Amnon was towardes Tamar at the first and the more extreame also his hatred against her afterward 2. Sam. 13.15 So this is often to be observed that such as sometime haue been most hott in dislike of the corruptions of our Church they changing their minds and for preferment conformyng themselues haue become more bitter and heavie adversaryes then any of those that were never other thē conformable men But was M. Powel at any time of such a minde Yea certainly within these few yeares he was so over strong that he called the Communion booke a Mass booke At another time likewise being at a Church and hearing the Latiny he rose up saying come let us goe what shall we now heare conjuring So likewise the time hath been when some other now very conformable haue publikly in pulpit I will not say in my hearing to the disgrace of the Bishops sayd If ever the Bishops doe good in the Parliament house let me be damned Many other the like instances might be named But I regard brevity These things wil be justified Did any of vs ever so be haue our selues If we had we might be justly blamed in that behalfe But I will presse this poynt no further I haue the rather reported this for the better answer of the matter of giddines afterward by him objected unto us 2 The next poynt in the preface is that he chargeth us with emulation of forreyne novelty Ans Neither noveltie nor forreyne We desire nothing wherein we haue not proved our desires by such Arguments of Gods word the best antiquitie and besides which the more auncient any thing is the more rotten is the same such arguments I say as never haue been yet sufficiently answered Touchinge the word forreyne though indeed the thinges desired by us are in all Churches of other Countryes fully reformed in doctrine with ours yet those Churches being all the same houshould of faith that we are they are not aptly called forreyne As Englishmen travelyng in other Countryes and livyng after English fashion are not therfore Forreyners in respect of England whiles they so travell but still to be accounted of the same country so all Churches and all members of the Church in what Country so ever they be are not to be accounted Forreyners one to another because they are all Citizens of heaven and we make all one family or body Besides the thinges in controversie which we desire to be removed may much more justly be called both Noviltie Forreyne because they were not of Apostolicall institution neyther heard of in the Apostles time yea condemned by generall arguments in the writinges of the Apostles as hath been shewed in divers other bookes written one our side not yet answered especially in the A bridgment made by the Ministers of Lincolne Diocesse the Demaunds and in the 12 Arguments as also because they are in use in more Forreyne Popish Synagogues then there are reformed Churches in all Europe Lastly although Communion with the Churches of Christ in what country soever be much more to be respected then fellowship with the sinagogues of Antichrist yet we do not therefore desire that which we doe because it is in other Churches but because the word requyreth the same G. Powel They refuse to conforme them selues Answer None of vs haue ever had the booke of Common prayer authorized by Act of Parliament 1 Eliz. And some of vs haue never had the book now vrged by the Bishops provided for us or tendred unto us How then haue wee refused to conforme our selues Yet we are deprived By what right and equity I know not The auncient approved Discipline Ceremonyes of our Church Not auncient because they haue not warrant from God Neither ever so approved but that from the first Preachyng of the Gospell in this kingdome they haue been by divers godly and learned men oppugned His Highnes sought to reclaime them by some correction of their obstinacy as by silencyng etc. That which his Majestie permitted on that behalfe was qualified with gracious provisors 1. To proceede no otherwise therein then accordyng to the lawes of God and the land 2 To execute even that with all mildnes moderation And thirdly to endeavore to perswade by all arguments rather thē by censures which things because they haue not been done but that in many respectes the Bishops and other Prelats haue exceeded their commission we doubt not but that if it might please some attending upon his Highnes and in grace with him in all humble manner to informe him we doubt not I say but that his Majestie accordyng to his most christian disposition would graciously respect the humble desires of his subjects therein Touchyng the other parte of M. Powels speech it is no small abuse of his Majestie to impute unto him the severitie of the Bishops against us whereas in truth whatsoever his Majestie doth therī is only through their importunity and by their accusing us of schisme disorder sedition etc. The moderat severity of the Bishops Gab. Powel is unfitly and unduetifully termed oppression and cruelty Is it moderate severitie to turne so many Ministers as are now silenced out of their livyngs Yea Answ to provide also that they shall haue no other way or meanes whereby to liue that so they their wiues and children may goe a-begging to the disgrace of the gospell the dishonor of the land the greife of the godly and the joye of the wicked Especially is it moderate severity so to doe for such causes Did they ever read in any antiquity so many of such quality whose labours God had so blessed to be thrust and cast out as unsavory salt in the time of the gospell in a kingdome whereof both King and people doe professe the gospell and in an age in respect of the sinnes thereof requyering ten tymes as many preachers more then their are if they could be gotten If these be the mercyes of the Bishops what would be their crueltyes If this be their moderat severity what would be their extremity if they might be suffered If a Father should cast his sonne out of house home utterly disinherit him because
he would eat no cheese were this moderat severity What then may be sayd of them that cast out other from the inheritāce of the Lord whose labours God hath blessed to the joye of many an elect soule that only for not doyng that against which they can yeeld a farre better reason from God his will revealed in his word then any man can doe for his not eating of cheese or for any other the like action from the secret instinct of nature G. Powel The author of these arguments is not afrayd to perswade provoke your Honorable Court these are his owne words to intercede with his Majestie that he would compell the Reverend Prelats to surcease their rigorous and cruell dealing The Apostle biddeth vs to provoke one another to loue to good works Heb. 10.24 Therefore why might not the author of these arguments use this word unto the Parliament for so good a worke as in all the said arguments is intended But for the latter words of M. Powel to compell the Reverend Prelats to surcease their rigorous and cruell dealing etc. Where doth the author use them The drifte of all the arguments insinuateth so much If it be but insinuation then all the words before set downe are not the expresse owne words of the author as M. Powell hath said 2 It may be taken for granted that the sayd Prelats are so resolute for mainteyning of their Hierarchie Discipline Ceremonyes and other conformity that they will not yeeld one inche yea not to his Majestie exceept they be compelled Gab. Powel The Prelats haue soberly and temperatly caryed themselues in their proceedings Answ We will all with one accord most thankfully acknowledg this when we shall find it In the meane tyme we do acknowledge it comparatiuly true in respect of their wils and desires For by this answer written by their authority and by divers other tokens it is apparant that they would gladly provoke us to giue them further advantage against vs and also that for these causes they would doe more thē they doe yet I speake not of all I doe unfainedly confess that their is great difference of affections amongst them it respect of us they would I say doe more then they doe If they feared not the people No but if his Majestie his most Honorable counsell would giue them leaue and if they feared not as much indignation from his Highnes as now they seeme to be in grace with him and as much opposition by the honorable Counsell as now perhaps they seeme to haue furtherance by some of them that do not so well understand the cause G. Powel Their obstinat superstion hath worthely made them subject to the proceedings of the Bishops What Superstition And obstinate superstition Answ We were never before to my remembrance charged with superstition much lesse with obstinat superstition but haue alwayes been accounted great adversaryes to superstitiō Yea we hate it with a perfect hatred yea our soules abhorre and detest the least superstition much more obstinat superstition as much as the best of them doe hate it yea much more then some of them it is one of our reasons against some poynts of conformitie that we judge them superstitious How then may we be charged with superstition Yea with obstinat superstition But what if we were superstitious May we therfore be punished cōtrary to law or aboue that that the law requyreth Were not this to ad transgression to transgression and to punish sinne with sinne We may not doe evill that good may come thereof G. Powel The author cryeth out as if the gospell by such proceedings were banished Gods worship prophanely adulterated to the eternall perill of many thousand soules Where is this outcry It is very low and soft Answer in some secret corner or written in very small letters that no man can see or heare of it The author might well cry out that the gospell is in part banished by the suppression of so many able godly faithfull paynefull ministers that Gods worship is in part corrupted both in the doctrine especially sithens this late vehement strivyng by our Prelats for conformitie as shal be afterwards touched and also in the other publike exercises of religion by mixture of humane inventions Ceremonyes and Traditions Yea and that heerby we are in danger to haue the candlesticke removed and the kingdome of Heaven taken from us and given to a Nation more worthy then we except by repentance doing our first works Revel 2.5 Yea making our last works more then our first vers 19. We doe in time prevent this judgment G. Powel The Parliament is able to convince him heerin of malepart Sycophancy and manifest untruth Answer I would such accusers notwithstanding their such threats of the Parliaments kindnes would stand with vs that we might be admitted to stand with them at the barre of the Parliament for triall of this accusation and whether the author of those Arguments or this answerer haue abused that most worthy Senat. G. Powel This author feareth no rebuke of shame for his vnconscionable dealyng Answer Let this unsconscionable dealing be shewed in the author or else let this answerer be ashamed G. Powel This man speaketh frō Cimmerian darknes by concealing his nāe Answer Then also by the same reason many books of the scripture the writers whereof haue concealed their names were written from Cimmerian darknes The like may be sayd of many other most worthy Theologicall bookes without name of any writer Much more may the same be sayd of the booke intitled SCOTTISH GENEVATING ENGLISH SCOTIZING and many other such disgracefull and scornefull books published without name of any author against the desired reformation and all the favorers thereof It is also the severitie of the Prelats that maketh vs the rather to conceale our names If we had as much liberty to publish our books for our selues as every rayler hath to put forth any thing against us Yea as there is for Printing of many profane filthy scurrilous lascivious ungodly bookes authorised by some of them you should quickly see our names The author is bold to offer his writing even to your Honors Gab. Powel to provoke you to supplicat to his excellent Majestie in behalfe of their cause or else to determine it of your selues Answ The author never desired this determynation you speake of by the Parliament as though that would or might be authenticall without his Majesties Royall assēt but onely that his Majesty thereby seeing the equity of the cause and the affection of his people therunto might also be the more easily perswaded to vouchsafe his princly favour towards them therein G. Powel I was cōmaunded by some in authority to peruse and breifely to refute these Arguments which at the first I was unwillyng to take vpon me If you be so ready to be commaunded to write against
which for some causes not fit to be written being sometimes shorne make a great cry yeld litle wooll And though the answerer by this adage seeme to esteeme us no better then swyne as also in his other booke De adiaphoris it pleaseth him to compare us to Apes yet indeed may he well say that the most of us haue but litle wooll on our backes we haue been so long and often shorne shaven that we hage nothing left but our very skine Yet it may be that some of our adversaryes hope for wooll and fat from our livings G. Powel d As if his Majestie would be displeased if any promoted a religious or honest cause A malepart and presumptuous if not a disloyall censure Is this man in his right minde Answ that he maketh such collections The author perswadeth all men from all such un-christian and disloyall suspitions of his Majestie how then may this note be applyed unto him contradiction in the answerer In the last Argument or rather conclusion of all the arguments where the author speaketh of some that are alwayes accusing and disgracing the ministers pleaded for with Nobles and Princes the answerer maketh this marginall note An vniust calumny Whether it be so or no let all men iudge as by his whole answer so particularly by this note and them that follow yea by his whole answer to all the preface before the arguments But to returne sith sometymes some feare that even of Christian Princes which they nether need nor ought to feare what mallepartnes presumption or disloyaltie was there in the author to prevent such feare Doth not the Apostle often times Rom. 7.7 and 9.14 and Galt 3.21 and often else where prevent objections that might but needed not be made Shall he therfore be charged with malepert presumption against God and his trueth G. Powel e I knowe not wherto all his whole Paragraph tendeth if the Suppliants deeme not his Maiesty to haue forsaken his first loue and to haue revolted from religion at least in shew for a time f A malitious uncharitable and unchristian allegation to be applyed unto the whole State that loyally obey his Maiestie especially to his Nobles and servants Answer O uncharitable collections Let the reader by them judge whither this man doe not accuse vs and provoke what he can our gracious Prince his Nobles and all other against us Yea directly contrary to the words of the author who laboreth by the whole Paragraph spoken of by the answerer to perswade all men to conceaue well Honorably of his Majestie according to many former most worthy testimonies of his Princely piety and religion And albeit all in the sayd Paragraph be spoken onely to that purpose yet the answerer wresteth the same as intended also against the whole State especially against his Majestie Nobles and servants But he that iudgeth righteously to whom we commend the cause and our selues shall one day make our righteousnes knowne G. Powel g If they had perticularly applyed these things their mallice had been the more manifest Answer It greeveth this answerer most that we are not so maliticious as himselfe and that we giue no just occasion of further quarrell with us When they want matter of just accusation then they pretend that aliquid latet quod non patet some thing is hid that is not manifest But of this afterward G. Powel h No bolder securer censurers of all sorts degres of men under the cope of heaven then these singular selfe conceited refractaryes Answer Yes this notary is a more bold and secure censurer in as much as in his notes before he hath censured the author of the arguments and all other desiering that which he desireth of what sorte and degree soever for that that is not expressed neither intended nor any wayes to be justly gathered from his words When this censuring he speaketh of is proved by any of us let the partie against whom it is proved beare the blame thereof If any man censure a tree according to the fruites it bearerh he doth no more then he may G. Powel i How prodigall they are of the Kings thanks Answ This note sheweth the prodigalitie of this answerers mallice and words The k. is answered before G. Powel l Is a triobular pamphlet such an huge quantity or volume It may seeme the pen man of this supplication was the worthy author of the late two leaved libels Seeing words as this answerer saith in his conclusion ought to be numbred to so great States Answer why should respect of brevity be thus scornfully objected to the author Especially considering the other manifold waighty affayres of that Honorable assembly unto whom the sayd Arguments were directed If the Arguments were a triobular pamphlet what would the answere haue been without them especially without all his cavils reproches vnjust colections vayne repetitions and that false ground that alwayes he buildeth upon viz. his supposition that we are schismaticks The answerer his former booke also De adiaphoris what were it with a lesse margine without the great multiplicity of sections and if every bird had her owne feather The two leaved libells wherof he speaketh are perhaps the more offensiue vnto him because some of them doe attribute more authority to his Majestie then they would haue us to doe or then the prelats doe that the challenge so much to themselues G. Powel l Such presumptuous and selfe conceyted Elihues are these male content Ministers who take upon them to instruct such as be wiser then themselues Vide Gregorium in hunc locum Answer What a thing is this For want of matter against the author this answerer falleth out with the worthy Elihu as a presumptuous and selfe conceited man whose wisedome notwithstanding modestie and singular humilitie are evident in holy scripture by his silence till other more auncient then himselfe had spoken all they could as also by his pleading the cause of God himselfe when all the rest there present had geiven over the same in which respect also all in these dayes that plead for God against the oppositions of those that would be accounted the onely wise and learned men are likewise reproched as presumptuous and selfe conceited and lastly by the elegancy eloquence of his speeches and by the profound and divine matter therin conteyned Finally are humble petitioners that bow themselues to the ground before them to whom they doe petition are such petitioners I say before heaven and earth to be proclaimed presumptuous and selfe conceited instructers Is this the man that erst now blamed other as bold and secure censurers A REPLY TO THE FVRTHER ANSWER OF the preface to the Arguments G. Powel Some haue foolishly made a breach and division amongst us about crosse and surplice etc. Wisedome consisteth in understanding what the will of the Lord is Ephe. 5.17 And in a
conscience of keeping Gods commaundements and observing his word Answer Deut. 4.6 The which to reject is the greatest folly Ierem. 8.9 We haue made no breach or division at all But as Ioseph for telling his divine dreames was hated of his brethren and at the last sold a way to strangers by themselues and as the blinde man Iohn 9. for confessing Christ and stoutly standing in that confession was throwne out of the Iewish Synagogue by the Pharises so to use the words of this answerer we are violently and unjustly broken of and divided and thrust out of the ministery by other and yet charged that we haue made a folish breach and division G. Powel And therefore I cannot allow the opinion of such as giue out Answer Yet we doe all as hartily and faithfully loue and affect our Prince and King yea of whatsoever religion and are as ready and willing to defend his person honor against all adversaryes etc. that these our factious brethren are as dangerous enimyes vnto the state as the papists etc. Neither you nor any other haue ever yet had or ever I hope shall haue cause justly to speake write or thinke otherwise concernyng either our loue loyalty towards our Soveraigne or our duety to any of his governors yea though we should cunningly be solicited to some vndutifull practises as some not many yeares since were in the dayes of late Q. Elizab. of most Honorable memory who were so farr from enterteyning any such motions as that most dutifully they discovered the same to other in higher authority Though I say we should be cunningly solicited to any undutifull practises or to the approbation of any such practise yet I trust that never any of vs shall be found so to offend against his Majesties meanest and lowest officers G. Powel D. Elmer late B. of London gravely sayd If I were in the company but of one Papist I might justly feare the losse of my life but being amongst ten thousand Precisians well might I be afrayd of my Bishopricke but never of my throate the one would cut my coate and the other my throate The Precisians as it pleaseth B. Elmer to call them never desired the Bishopprickes of any of their adversaryes Answer but onely that they would giue glory to him that sitteth vpon the Throne and cast their miters at the feete of the Lambe acknowledging him worthy of all rule and Dominion contenting themselues with the places and Honors commended in the scriptures according to an other apothegmaticall exhortation of the sayd Bishop both made openly at Paules crosse and also printed before himselfe was so advanced in the world viz. that Bishops and other Prelats should come downe from their thowsands and content themselues with an hundred vntill which abasing of themselues and resignyng that which uniustly they hold reigning as Lords Kings over the Lords inheritance neither the Church of God in generall neither our Soveraigne in speciall shall haue so much service and good by their service neither themselues so much peace and comforte of conscience as otherwise would be G. Powel Though they be free from suspition of treason and rebellion yet it cannot be denyed but that presumptuously and willfully they contend with the Magistrat impugning his authority in things indifferēt Cannot that be denyed which never was neither ever can be proved against us Answer 1 We deny that it is the Magistrats meere pleasure that we should conforme otherwise then by mis information of our adversaryes against us as David upon the like mis information of Ziba against Mephibosheth gaue all to Ziba that had been Mephibosheths 2 Sam. 16.2 Yea they doe not only giue all the mis informations them-selues against us which they can jmagine or wherwith they are informed by other but also they labour what they can to keep the Magistrats from all right information in our behalfe by any other yea they indeavour their vtmost to keep both Parliament and all other from mediation for us 2 Though we yeeld not in all thinges required of us yet it is not presumptuously and wilfully but in all humility modesty we contend not by the sword nor any violence but onely by word yea pleading the word of God for our cause Our contentiō also is in a patient suffering with a duetifull cleering of our innocency against the false imputations wherewith we are burdened The things in question haue been said but never substantially proved to be indifferent in such sorte and to such vses as now they are urged Our adversaries haue so long strivē to maintayne the things which they call indifferent for such uses as to which they are not indifferent that they haue made religion it selfe an in different thing to many men In things truely indifferent it is already justified and shal be further justified if neede requyer that we attribute no lesse to the magistrat then our adversaryes doe Let them name in what sense and degree the Papists deny the Soveraignty of Princes in any thinge and I doubt not but that it may be proved that themselues holding their owne principles doe deny the same in the same sense and degree G. Powel All of them make a faction and schisme in the Church for carnall respects some because they know not otherwise how to be mainteyned some to gratifie their benefactors and Patrons and to please their frends some for discontentment and want of preferment some for giddines of innovation etc. What all M. Powell How doe you forget your selfe Answer You should haue left this generall judgment of all to the generall judge of all There is none of these of whom you speake but for the world and outward things they might liue better conformyng then not cōforming themselues What benefit haue any by gratifying their Patrons Will their Patrons giue them better mayntenance otherwise Nay some Patrons are their adversaryes and are gratified by them that put such Ministers out that so they may present againe etc. Some so displease their frends heerby that by their displeasure they loose more in one day then they get all their life by any Ecclesiasticall living Some also by displeasing their frends doe not only lose temporall benefits for them and theirs but doe also hinder themselues of as great Ecclesiasticall promotion as many or the most of the conformable sort doe ateyne unto Some by their troubles for this cause having had good patrimonyes haue consumed wasted them so that in their age when they need most comfort they liue in penury and want and at their death leaue not so much to their wiues many children as was left to themselues alone Some by want for this cause are forced to take their children of very great hope and forwardnes for learnyng frō the schoole and to make them apprentises to their owne great greife and in time to the detriment of the Church Agayne this imputation of
carnall respects unto us such as you reckon is contrary to your often imputation of superstition unto vs. For what is superstition but to make that sinne that is not sinne and so to feare sinnyng against God as that we doe not that which lawfully we may do or one the contrary to make that good holy and necessary that is nether good holy nor necessary and so to think himselfe bound to doe that which well he might leaue undone If then we be superstitious and doe that which we doe in fearing to sinne against God how can such carnall respects as before are particularized be imputed vnto us But the truth is that these carnall respects doe belong rather to conformiry for which many will doe any thing rather then they will loose their livyngs Of how many also of them may it be sayd that they seeke their owne and not that which is Iesus Christs Philip. 2.21 Yea that their belly is their God their glory their shame and that they mind earthly things Philip. 3.19 that also with Diotrephes that loue to haue the preheminence 3. Ioh. 9. How many of that side haue receaved 500. or 600. pounds from their people since their last Sermon yea since their last presence amongst them Yea are their not some that buy sell benefices as men buye and sell horses Truely there are sōe that being not old mē haue in their dayes passed through many benefices and those of very good worth To whō then doth this imputation of carnall respectes belong Cease therefore cease M. Powell to charge us with that against which there are so many reasons Yea wherein all the world can convince you G. Powel They haue altered the state of the question For the question being about subscription Ceremonyes Conformitie etc. which are but thinges indifferent and of small moment they make it the cause of God the ministery of the gospell the salvation of the people the mayne cause of the land How doe we alter the state of the qvestion Doe we mince that which somtyme we held Answer Doe we goe from any thing which before we maynteyned What ever was in controversie betwixt you and us that is not comprehended under subscription or some other of the particulars by you here mencioned It is meere folly so often to repeate the indifferency of these thinges that hath never been neither can be proved by you For as much also as for not subscribyng and for not conforming to Ceremonyes etc. Many more are thrust out of the ministery then for any other matter of ten tymes greater moment may it not be truely called the cause of God Especially it being in so many bookes proved that they are unlawfull contrary to the word of God Yea sith for these thinges the word is restrayned may we not say that the salvation of the people dependeth therevpon And consequently that it is the mayne cause of the land What is greater then salvation Your selfe grant that we are Ministers of Christ in grace and favour with God It followeth therefore that our cause is the cause of God Luc. 10.16 Yea of the land also because besids salvation many other benefits doe depend upon the ministery of the word and many evills vpon the restraint thereof Prov. 29.18 For this cause the Apostle joyneth these two togeather in the Iewes that they were contrary or adversaryes to all men and forbad them to preach to the Gentles 1. Thessalonians 2. ver 15.16 Touching your often objection of our suspension and deprivation for not conformyng our selues consider this one thing M. Powell and consider it seriously viz. that whē as Iohn and some other Disciples tooke upon them to forbid one casting out Devills that had before done it in the name of Christ and that only because he would not joyne with them and follow them to Christ and that afterward whē they made relation unto Christ of that which they had done and of the reason why they had done it as though they had done some great service as many thinke they doe now great service in forbidding us to preach consider I say agayne that our Saviour was so far from approving that which they had done that he rather reproved it saying Forbid him not Mar. 9.38.39 Whether was a juster cause of suspention not to joyne with such worthy Disciples of our Saviour and that in following them and goeing with them to our Saviour himselfe or not to joyne with the Bishops to conforme our selues unto them in those things wherein we are perswaded we should sinne against Christ and in parte goe away from him For we follow not Christ neither walke with him any longer then we doe obserue his word Further also consider whether is a greater or at the least a better and more necessary worke to cast out Devills from their possession which they had of the bodyes of men or to cast them out from the spirituall possession they haue of the soul of men which eiection is wrought by the preaching the gospell Acts 26.18 G. Powel They make this such a cause as if all religion depended on refusing of a crose and furplice etc. No no. Answer All religion and piety doth not depend on these thinges Yet religion is the lesse and doth the more decay the more that the preaching of the gospell for thes thinges is restrayned The increase of sinne and iniquity in those places already where such Ministers are put out doth too much testifie this thing Heere againe is his former fallacy as eo quod est secundum quid ad id quod est simpliciter We say that some religion dependeth on refussing of a crosse surplice ete Hence he concludeth that all religion dependeth etc. Further whether we make all religion to depend on refussing a crosse surplice etc. or no it semeth that the Bishops make all religion or the most to depend on crosse surplice etc. For if a man yeeld to these things he may passe away with any other matter vncontrolled but if he stands in these things then he is unworthy the ministery whatsoever guiftes he haue how godly soever he be and what good so ever he haue done or might doe by his continuance Is it not so G. Powel They boldly presumptuously and unduetifully censure his Majestie for coldnes in religion for losing his first loue deepe dissembling seeming to pretend one thing and to intend another as if he had been trayned up in the Iesuits schooles to equivocat which fault I would some of their faction did so litle practise as his Majestie abhorres it Wheris there any such censure of his Majestie for coldnes Answer in religion for losing his first loue and for deepe dissembling Nay doth not the author expresly labour the quit contrary professing that he wrote that which he did to this very end that men might not iudge Christian Princes vpon outward apperences yea adding supposed apparences Yea wishyng also lesse censuring of
For these are the expresse words of the psalme which he applyeth to the Parliament for dealing in our behalfe so indeede accusing us as the principall offenders in those sinnes that are mencioned in that psalme but yet making the Parliament also accessary with us in them THE THIRD ARGVMENT It was a fault in Pharaoh his butler that he did no sooner remember to speake to Pharoah for the libertie of Ioseph and for his release from his affliction Gen. 40.14 23. Seeing Ioseph had interpreted his dreame of reconciliation to the grace of Pharaoh and to his former place of earthly honorable service in the house of Pharao Ergo The Parliament ought so to remember the interpretation of the mysteries of God his favor and heavenly kingdome by the ministers now silenced etc. That they doe what lawfully they may to release them of their troubles 1 Marginall notes G. Powel a This and most of the arguments following are grounded upon a false principle viz that the refractary Ministers quarrell against the Church of England is the ministery of the gospell the salvation of the people etc wheras indeed all the contention is about crosse surplice and some other indifferent Ceremonyes and actions in the Church And all these arguments doe specially make against them seeing they be onely disturbers of the sincere profession of the gospell and worke of the ministery yea seeing they forsake their calling and moue so great contention And agayne G. Powel b would God they were halfe so diligent in a good cause as they are importunat to sow schisme and sedition among brethren But they deserue small commendation etc. Reply One reply shall serue to both these notes Especially because as it is noted before all the answer is grounded upon a false principle that we are schismatiks etc. and so worthy of all that hath been done unto us To insist therefore upon this poynt I say first of all that this accusation of vs to be such is a most beggerly begging of the question most unjust untrue and uncharitable never yet proved neither able to be proved vntill they proue the matters in controversie to be meerely indifferent to such uses as whereto they are imployed urged by them yea good and laudable Ceremonies matters of decency and order in the Church yea that we also refuse to conforme our selues unto them more of stomacke then of conscience Much lesse can they justifie their proceedings against and punishing of us yea not onely of us but also of our people a thing most unrighteous and odious to God men in such manner as they haue done especially more for these things which themselues call indifferent small pettie accidentall circumstantiall then they doe other for things expresly forbidden by God himselfe a thousand tymes more offensiue to other and more reprochful and disgracefull to our Church profession and kingdom then these things Yea it is to be observed that notwithstanding all these proceedinges against us all our bookes written against the ceremonyes onely to shew the righteousnes of our cause and all their writtyngs against us none of them haue ever yet either in open consistory or in privat conference that I haue heard of or in publike writing made any one no not one demonstratiue reason necessarily concluding the lawfulnes and the good and necessary use of the things they so heavily impose vppon us Some indeed haue written against some of our arguments but no otherwise then the witt of man may cavill against any principle of religion though never so substantially proved by the best divine upon the earth But to returne to the poynt there is nothing in these two notes and in the rest of the booke objected against vs where with our auncients and betters Our betters heretofore charged as we are now haue not been charged in former tymes Elia was charged with troubling Israell 1 King 18.17 Michaiah might haue been charged with singularity and schisme for dissenting from all the 400 Prophets in Ahabs time 1 King 22. Ieremy was accused by the Preists and Prophets of his tyme to haue spoken against the state of the City and to be therefore worthy to dyc Ierem. 26.11 Amos was charged by Amazia the preist with such conspiracy against the King that the land was not able to beare all his words Amos 7.10 All the Iewes was generally accused by Haman to Ahashuerosh not to haue observed the Kings lawes Ester 3.8 Ezra and the Iewes with him were accused by Rehum Shimshay and other beyond the river to Artashasht the King as rebellious and wicked for building of Ierusalem Yea they were not only so accused for the time present but also for the time to come as we are afterward in the 16 Argument in the marginall note with r that if they were suffered to proceed in building of the City they would not pay toll nor tribute nor custome yea Ezra and his companions were not onely charged to be such but the whole City of Ierusalem for former tymes was also charged to haue been a rebellious noysom City vnto Kings and Provinces that the inhabitants therof had moved sedition of old time that for that cause that Citie had been destroyed Therefore also the sayd Rehum and Shimshay and their companions pretended regard of the Kings Honor in writing so against Ezra and the rest of the Iewes Ezra 4.12 etc. The enimyes of Daniell framed the like accusation of him to Darius Daniell 6. Our Saviour himselfe was blasphemed by the name of a seducer deceiver of the people Ioh. 7.12 Yea oft tymes as a blasphemer profaner of the Saboth a frend to publicans and sinners Paule was accused to haue taught men against the law and the Temple Acts 21.28 and to be a pestilent fellow a mover of sedicion Acts 24.5 yea to be an heretike verse 14. Such also haue been the accusations of all Martyrs by the common adversaries the Papistes It is therefore the more to be marveilled at that our Prelats professing and sometime preaching the gospell doe accuse vs in like manner Yea charge us to disturbe the sincere profession of the gospell and worke of the ministery and yet alleadge no reason heerof or at least no other reason then such as for which all or the most part of those before named were so charged as we haue heard For besides traditions of men antiquity not proved at least not true antiquity the commaundements of Princes procured by themselues uncharitably misinformyng such princes besids thes things I say what else haue they said doe they say or can they say The Ministers not yelding to conformitie are no schimatickes Doe we vary from the sincere doctrine of the scriptures Nay rather many of them doe much more swarue from the same especially sithens their late strong patronizing and urging of these things yea they haue fallen frō that that heertofore hath been constantly and generally held by our Church now
among brethren The assumptiō or second part of the former Argument is granted by the answerer answerer himselfe in his answer to the first Argument yea it is manifest by the good successe of their ministery from God in the sayd Argument mentioned Yea and that this argument from the blessing of God upon their ministery is of force and much to be respected appereth by the words of the blind man reported with commendation by S. Iohn This is a mervelous thing that ye know not whence he is and yet he hath opened myne eyes Now we know that God heareth not sinners but if any man be a worshipper of God and doth his will him heareth he And verse 33. If this mā were not of God he could haue done nothing Was this argumēt good from the opennyng of the eyes of the body of one that was borne bodily blind and is it not much stronger from the openyng of the eyes of the minde of many that are borne spiritually blind The further answer of M. Powel to this third Argument conteyneth nothing but that which is partely answered before and partly to be answered afterward Therefore I passe the same by and come to the 4 argument The Fourth Argument The Israelits so respected a bodily deliverance wrought by Ionathan for them that they saved him from danger of death Ergo Much more ought this Christian high Court of Parliament being not a company of rude souldiers but the cheife flower of this Realme and representing the whole Realme so to respect the spirituall deliverance of themselues and of many other wrought by the Ministers now silenced etc. That they speake what lawfully they may for all lawfull releefe of them against their troubles The marginall notes G. Powel a Ionathans case and the Schismaticall Ministers is altogether unlike And the urging of this zeale having not the like cause seemes to be dangerous But I spare my brethren The author urgeth not this argument from Ionathan as from a like example but from a comparison a minore ad maius from the lesse to the greater Therefore though there be not the like cause yet there being greater viz. From consideration of a spirituall deliverance there is no danger therin The author by this example moveth only the Parliament to be zealous for the saide Ministers Is there danger now in the zeale of so wise judicious an assembly It is also acknowledged by the answerer afterward that the Israelits did justly rescue Ionathan Is there any danger then by an example of them that did justly to provoke the wise Parliament to pleade with a wise and religious Prince for the Ministers Wherin then doth this answerer spare vs that seeketh every corner to find something for which he might if he could hang us G. Powel b The greater is their sinne whose superstition and wilfull obstinacy hath restrained their libertie and made them unserviceable in the Church Reply Is it not a strange thing I had almost saide sinne that it should be accounted sinne superstition and wilfull obstinacy yea such as makes men vnserviceable in the Church in feare of sinnyng against God soberly to refrayne from humane Ceremonyes and yet swearing swaggering rioting gamyng dronkennes whoredome adultry even in the sight of the world should not make men unserviceable etc That such things are in many suffred and countenaunced in the ministry is knowne to many of the Parliament house If his Christian Majestie were also rightly informed thereof I doubt not but that thinges would be otherwise ordered Further answer to the 4 Argument The Ministers did but their duety etc. If men should alwayes be so answered when in their necessities they should require some help and comfort in regard of some former kindnes would not men cōdemne such answerers of great ingratitude in humanitie viz. Thus to be answered that which you haue done was but your duety G. Powel Ionathans example is unlike unto the suppliants For Saule in hypocrisy had made a rash vowe etc. But the actions of our Soveraigne are not so exorbitant etc but advised and just etc. See how wise the children of this world are in their kind Reply The author altogether wisely and purposely as it seemeth concealed the name of Saule in the argument that he might reason from the comparison of the worke onely of Ionathan in a bodily deliverance for the better regard of the Ministers now silenced etc. In respect of the spirituall deliverance of the people by them This I say he doth without any mention at all of Saule that so the worke might be generally and simply respected in it selfe without any perticular eye unto Saule out of whose hāds the people delivered Ionathan He respected their thankefulnes in delivering Ionathan from death without respect of the person that would haue put him to death Agayne I know not why the answerer should thinke the author to meane rather our gracious King as answerable to Saule then the Prelats the cheife and principall actors in all wrongs and injuries done unto the Ministers pleaded for except that either he had rather impute all hard dealing to his Majestie than to the Prelats or that hereby he would provoke the more wrath against the author and all by him supplicated for whom before notwithstanding he seemed greatly to spare Further if the Israelits justly rescued Ionathan as the answerer confesseth they did iustly much more iust is it that many ministers should be releeved in their troubles If yet they presse the author further for meanyng Saule and comparing our King unto him as Saule was the Lords annoynted what is the danger wherein the answerer before should bragge of sparing his brethren Can he gather any undutifulnes towards his Majestie Or can he imagine the author to haue intended any forcible meanes to be used by the Parliament that sitting to make lawes against force and violence towardes any subject must therefore much more themselues be farre from offering any force and violence towards their Soveraigne Doe the words in the Argument to be Zealous and earnest import any such matter Force and violence of any especially of subjects against their Princes is rather of Popish fury and madnes then of any Christian zeale and earnestnes Besides the often most Honorable mention of his Majestie in the Arguments and his expresse pressing the Parliament to doe all in humility modestie in the next argument yea that they should not onely use boldnes but christian boldnes yea that they should put forth all their giftes and graces of knowledge Zeale compassion modesty and humility yea finally that in the preface he petitioneth nothing by him written to be understood of any other meanes then good honest lawfull peaceable and agreable to every mans calling All these things doe abundantly cleere the author from all undnetifull intent and meanyng against his Majestie That the Israelits did not in such humility speake for Ionathan to Saule as they should
great lets and impediments to the sincere ministery of the gospell If you be of that minde and shew the same it wil be no small let and impediment to your owne preferment with the Bishops If you be not then surely this your note is not worth the noting G. Powel g If we professe Christ and maintayne his gospell what doe they plead for then VVherefore haue they denyed it all this while pretending they labour for nothing but the gospell the ministery therof What an untruth is this Where haue we denyed Christ here to be professed Reply and his gospell maynteyned But though we professe Christ maynteyne his gospell yet we plead 1 for the better continuance of the gospell where already it is 2 That so it may the better be where it is not 3 That it may be more glorified and the better florish and fructifie in all places all which thinges cannot be if the proceedinges begunne be not stayd and mitigated 4 May not a kingdome in generall professe Christ and maynteyne his gospell and yet haue some superfluityes which obscure Christ and hinder his gospell as also want some thinges belonging to Christ and his gospell which may make Christ more glorious and further his Gospell G. Powel h Lo now the Disciplinariay ataxie for which the suppliants plead so much is whole Christ Iesus Intollerable blasphemie So cryed the High Preist Reply when Christ confessed himselfe to be the Sonne of the livyng God Math. 27.65 If it had pleased you notwithstanding you might in charitie haue otherwise vnderstood the authors words But let the meanyng be as you take it haue you caught him in any trap Nothing lesse For what else can be gathered but that in the profession of the gospell here in England there are defects and wants That the Church of Christ among vs is in some sort defectiue And although we haue Christ in his word and Sacraments and in other exercises of religion yet we haue not whole Christ in that we haue not all his ordinances And that therefore some thing more ought to be added that Christ may raigne more fully absolutely over us Neither is there any such ataxie in the Discipline by these wordes signified For we desire nothing but the order wherin the Apostle reioyced Colos 2.5 Whereof also we haue the rudera and as it were the stumps yet remaynyng in our Parishionall Church-wardens and sidemen though intituled with other names and wanting that ordination and authority which with the Pastors within there owne Parishes Elders ought to haue This Discipline if we might haue equall hearing we could casily free from all such imputations as wherby it is commonly disgraced by the adversaryes therof with Princes and Nobles Yea we could plainely and truely shew the same to be nothing prejuditiall but very helpfull both to all Royall authority and also to Nobility yea better agreeyng with the one and the other then all other inventions of men for Ecclesiasticall goverment whatsoever Touching the intollerable blasphemie imputed in the end of this note to the author of the Argumēts by way of an exclamation it lyeth upon them that feare not openly to deny Christ Iesus to be law giver and King of his Church How it can be cast upon us for desiryng whole Christ Iesus I meane all his ordinances I can not discerne Further answer to the Fith Argument G. Powel Zeale and courage for defence of Gods truth and Church is commendable but it were rashnes and foole hardines for any to adventure hazard and danger by intermedling in a frivolous quarrell and in a cause not justifiable Reply Now you pay home indeede If Cardinall Wolsey were livyng he could speake no more imperiously For except by a frivolous quarrell and a cause not iustifiable you meane not the cause of the Ministers you speake nothing to the purpose If you meane that as needes you must then doe you not speake to vs poore Ministers alone but also to the Parliament and to all other Noble men or gentlemen that haue intermedled M Powels censure of the Parliament house or shall intermedle in our cause Yea them you doe not cunnyngly but openly playnly charge all such with rashnes and foolehardines If you had been a man that in heart had not cared for the opposition of any yet this speech would scarse haue beseemed your person One of us for halfe so much against the meanest Prelat yea against the basest Chancellor should haue payd full sweetly But your side seeme to haue privilege of speake and writing what you please against any yea against many yea against the High Court of Parliament Yea against whole Churches and kingdoms For the rest if we cannot make our cause good and justifie the same so that all your side shall not be able substantially to answer without scoffing rayling wrangling and sophisticating then let our quarrell be accounted frivolous and our cause not justifiable G. Powel There are great ods betweene these examples proposed and the refractarie ministers case There should be such ods Reply For the author reasoneth not á similibus or paribus from likes or equalls but from the lesse to the greater G. Powel In the tyme of Nehemiah the Iewes by long captivity were in great affliction the walls of Ierusalem broken downe etc. But our Church hath long florished is glorious still and more and more increaseth I will not say your wordes are like to his wordes that boasted saying I am rich and increased with goods Reply Revel 3.17 and haue neede of nothing but this I say that all beyng granted that you say doth not hinder but further the cause The more the Church florisheth the more easie it is to grant that which the Arguments pleade for Ministers also of the word are as necessary for the preserving and increasing of the glorie of Churches as for the procuring therof at the first But alas I would God our Church did so florish as you pretend Indeed it hath many rich mercyes God be blessed for them but he that seeth not what the Church wanteth doth not rightly acknowledge that which it hath Is this the glory of a Church for Prelates to florish and flant it out gallantly and for their men to ruffle it out lustily Nay rather this is the glory of the world and better beseeming the Courts of Princes and houses of Noble men then the calling of orthodox Bishops who should as well in their life as in their doctrine preach humilitie modestie and contempt of the world The more glorious that Prelats are outwardly the lesse glorious for the most part they are inwardly Yea it is to be observed that the more the outward glory of Churchmen as they are called hath increased the more hath true inward glory decayed The more also that the inward and true bewty of the Church hath decayed the more hath the outward state and pompe of
of the first of our late Queene vpon inquisition information or accusation but only upon proces ex mero officio A thing if not directly yet by consequence repugnant to the sayd statute and therefore unwarrantable by the sayd statute And therefore it is to be noted that this marginall note the Ecclesiasticall judge may proceed ex officio in pag 37. and this parēthesis which they may doe ex officio inserted in the body of the statute pag 42. is but a begging of the question Certain Ministers in the Dioces of Oxford Lichfeld etc. An other injustice against some Ministers hath been cōmitted by some ordinaries for that they haue deprived them for none other cause then only for not subscribing to the 3 articles mentioned in the 36. Canon And this wrong hath been openly in Parliament acknowledged to be a wrong by the Archbishop himselfe and by the Iudges and advocats of his owne Courts These and many such like thinges being thus may it not be truely sayd that the Ministers pleaded for are unjustly oppressed And being so oppressed and without releefe any other way haue they not just cause to supplicat to the High Court of Parliament And hath not the sayd High Court great reason yea is it not bound to finde remedy and to releeue them The answer concernyng the person of him who is sayd abundantly to haue proved the unlawfulnes of the proceedings against the deprived ministers that he is no iudge nor any good Civilian or common lawyer what reason haue you to be so resolut heerin He may be a judge a good Civilian or cōmon lawyer for ought you knowe though you seeme never so doubtles therof But what is this answer to the poynt in question Seeing it mattereth not what the person of the probator be if his proofes be sufficient And yet how meane so ever you thinke him or his learning to be if he be the party whom I ayme at I shall doe no wrong as I suppose to the cheefest judge and best approved Civilian of the now Archbishop of Canterburyes courts if without flattering the party I shall affirme that he was a student and an advocate and a Iudge yea I may as I thinke say more a reader of and a director in the practise of the civill law about 30 yeares passed to sōe that be now Doctors of the same law But to let the person and learnyng of the probator passe I resolutely and directly answer to the answerers 3. Queres the same being partly fraught with equivocations and partly childish and absurd that the one sorte can receaue no resolute answer before he haue resolved his intrinsecall and mentall sense and understanding and that the other without question is a question questionles His first Quere then being this namely Quere 1 whether the Church under Christian godly Magistrats hath any tribunall proper unto it selfe for the decyding of controversies and punishing of such persons as shall refuse the ordinances therof Unto this Quere when he shall distinguish and make his so many equivocations conteyned in the Quere prespicuous and playne Equivocations to the understanding of every simple playne meanyng man I shall God willing make him a simple playne resolute direct answer In the meane time let him understand first that we may justly doubt what he meaneth by the word Church and namely whether he meane the vniversall Church or a Nationall a Provinciall a Diocesā an Archidiaconall a Decanall a Capitular or lastly a Parochiall Church For all men as usually and commonly we speake doe vnderstand that every of these Churches hath her proper name after which she is so called as namly the Church dispersed throughout the world is called the universall Church the Church within England is commonly called the Nationall Church of England the Church within the Province of Canterbury the Provinciall Church of Canterbury the Church of the Diocesse of London the Diocesan Church of London etc. And lastly the Church of great S. Ellens in London the Parochiall Church of S. Ellens in London And therefore I craue a resolute and direct answer of what onely persons you meane that the universall this Nationall Provinciall Diocesan Archidiaconall Decanall Capitular and Parochiall Church consisteth Who onely be the Christian godly Magistrats under whom every one of these Churches liveth Whether the same christian godly Magistrates may personally be present giue their expresse consents and haue their decisive voyces to in making all and every decrees of every of these Churches What is the tribunall proper to it selfe of every of these Churches What onely manner of controversies by every of these Churches may be decided What onely kind of ordinances every of these Churches may decree What only kind of subject and with what onely kind of punishment and none other every of these Churches may punish the refusers of every their ordinances Our second mayne scruple touching this first Quere ariseth from these words vnder Christian godly Magistrats For if by these words under Christian godly Magistrats he understand that every of these Churches livyng under the obeysance of such Magistrats hath a tribunall proper unto it selfe immediatly derived to the same by the holy law of God wholly secluded from the Christian godly Magistrats presence as was the Sanctuary divided from the Court and wherinto the christian godly Magistrats may no more at this day enter or no more giue their consents and decisiue voyces in making the ordinances therof then it was lawfull in times past for the Kings of Iuda to enter into the holy place and to burne incense at the Altar then must we frame him one kinde of reply but if he shall informe us his mentall vnderstanding to be thus namely that the Christian godly Magistrats haue none other power by law divine or human but only to assemble every of the sayd Churches to ratifie the ordinances of every of the sayd Churches or hath onely power to commaund the same ordinances to be put in execution under them then unto this answer we must shape him an other manner of reply Notwithstanding in the meāe tyme this he must understand generally that in right though not alwayes in possession practise the church beyng distinguished from the common wealth hath the same power under a Christian and under an Infidell Magistrat Quere 2 G. Powel 2 Quere Whether so many judiciall acts of deprivation of Bishops from their benefices since the conquest to the time of Magna Charta and since that to this age were ever held to be contrary to the lawes of this Kingdome To dance after your Pipe I will not say what a foolish and ridiculous question Reply but what an od tune is this For can a man dance after a pipe before the Pipe be striken up So could acts done before Magna Charta and other lawes since made be sayd to be contrary to them This is as much as one should aske whether Adam
much before Iohn as he had before preferred Iohn before the Prophets Lastly the ministery of the gospell is greater then the knowledge of the gospell because it is both the end for which God giveth more knowledge to some then to other and also the cause that worketh knowledge in other If therfore the least in the kingdome of heaven be greater theÌ„ Iohn Baptist in respect of knowledg which is the least then much more is the least minister of the gospell greater then Iohn Baptist in respect of his ministery which is the greater The note with c is not worth a Cee as they speake at Oxford of single beere Further answer to the 9. Argument G. Powel He doth any kindnes to a Minister as he is a minister shall haue reward But if a Minister doe otherwise then he ought as these refractaries doe what kindnes then ought such to haue What a multitude of conformable Ministers are quite overthrowne by this Argument Reply For doe not many of them otherwise then they ought Yea doe not more of them otherwise then all thes now in question Is not this so to stand in a gap as that the gap is troden downe and a dore opened for all men to deny all duety to all Ministers For who doth not otherwise theÌ„ he ought to doe G. Powel Let the refractary Ministers duetifully serue God and his Church in their diligent and humble obeydience in the worke of their vocation Then let them supplicat for kindnes etc. What is that dilligent and humble obedience etc Reply To put on a Surplice to make a vanishing Cross to read service to acknowledge the Prelats to haue power to make ordinances against Gods word etc. How shall they supplicat With an 100. or 200. in a bagge Then perhaps if they arise betymes and ryde a pase they shall haue a payre of benefices an Archdeconry etc yea liberty also to goe whither they will never to come at any of their benefices but only in gathering time or if they lie at one of their benefices they shall haue leaue I to suspeÌ„d themselues from preaching as long as the list yea to do what else they will without controllment so it be not against conformity Notwithstanding the Canon for halfe yeares residence at either of their livinges they haue many quirkes to avoyd the danger therof THE 10. ARGVMENT The Lord hath forbidden all wrong to any of his servants especially to Ministers He threateneth also to revenge the least iniury done unto them psal 105.15 exod 17.14 15. 1. Sam. 15.3 Iudg. 5.23 and performeth that which he hath threatned Neither doth he account them onely guiltie of the former fault that doe his people any hurt but those also that doe not help in their need Ergo The high Court of Parliament ought to take the present opportunitie for releeving the Ministers molested The marginall notes of this Argument conteyne nothing but a vayne repetition of matters before noted and answered they conteyne nothing but that we are Schismatiks false prophets etc cruell in forsaking our charges for litle or nothing etc. I doe therfore dismisse them with admiration as of the notaryes barrenes and folly so also of the virtue of Cross and Surplice As the Ephesians cryed out of their Diana Acts 19.28 Great is Diana of the Ephesians so say I great are Cross and Surplice of the Conformitans The use of them maketh men Gods Prophets true prophets peaceable men faithfull Ministers but the refusall of them makes men schismaticall cruell superstitious false prophets etc. Who would not be in loue with them wherein there is such excellent virtue How many may more truely sacrifice to them Habba 1 16 then some sometymes are sayd to haue sacrificed to their nets Further answer to the 10. Argument G. Powel It is an ungratfull yea an ungracious parte of these supplicants to taxe the Honorable assembly or any Magistrate in this land so undutifully and unchristiantly for unjust cruell and mercilesse dealyng Who doth so taxe them Reply Doth every one that admonish other of that which God forbiddeth or threatneth taxe them whom he doth so admonish of those faultes that are forbidden Your selfe haue taxed them indeede before of matters nothing beseemyng you yea and the Prelats doe dayly taxe if not also threathen to excommunicate them for dealyng so much for us for opposing themselues so much to the Prelacy for doeyng so much as they haue doone against non residency the disorders of the high Commission the abuse of citations the horrible abuse of the great censure of the Church Excommunication etc yea for dealing at all in the matters of religion yea haue they not more stoutly then wisely sent out their Inhibition against them in that behalfe Thus they may doe what they list Psal 12 as though their tongues were their owne and there were no Lord over them but we poore men oppressed by them may not humbly petition to the Parliament but that we are presently exclaymed of as ungratefull and ungracious as undutifully and unchristiantly taxeyng them for uniust cruell and merciles dealyng Wherefore doe they thus charge us Because they feare that we will lay the same thinges to their charge But though they doe thus esteeme of our petition yet we hope it is better accepted of the Honorable Courte unto which it was directed Wheras in the rest of the answer to this 10. ArgumeÌ„t he sayth the refractary Ministers as he calleth them were never proceeded against for preachyng the gospell or for appertune sober executyng their Ministery this is utterly untrue for some haue been molested for preachyng any thinge tendyng against the present Hierarchy or any other corruptions some also for confuting the Popish doctrine of other though they haue doone it never so soberly and some for other matters which are poyntes of the gospell as well as other THE 11 ARGVMENT Pharao in the great Egiptian famine at his owne cost provided for all his Idolatrous priests Gen 47 22 that they might not sell their lands The Monks and Fryars in Popery yet in the twylight of the gospell at the dissolution of the Abbyes were provided for duryng their life tyme. Ergo The high Court of Parliament in this cleare light of the gospell ought much more to provide that the ministers of the gospell may not be turned out a beggyng with their wiues and children as they are when all other haue their fill The Marginall Notes G. Powel e VVhere superstition fitteth Iudge there neyther nature nor reason may dare to plead the cause Alas it is very lamentable that some men I know not for what carnall respects had rather curry favour with other and beholding to other men theÌ„ conscionably liue 〈◊〉 â—â—eir owne They should well consider the saying of the Apost 1 Tim. 5.8 Reply In divine matters neither superstition must sit Iudge neyther must things be pleaded by
16. Argument G. Powel 1 If the question be but subscription cross etc wherefore then haue they maynly cryed out that it was the cause of God etc All this is often answered Reply The least transgression of Gods word and the least obedience to Gods word is the cause of God as well as the greatest I wonder the answerer was not ashamed so often to repeate the same things G. Powel 2 VVe hold not Subscription Ceremonyes etc. absolutly necessary to salvation nor to be imposed upon every Church for why should not other Churches use their liberty Yea our Church hath power to alter these particulars yet we know some ordinances necessary for gathering assemblyes establishing of a Church and be as it were bonds and links of society How doth the first poynt of this answer agree with that that some of the great Prelats hold Reply that their authority is Apostolicall and the Ceremonyes matters of order and decency Are not thinges Apostolicall and decent common to all Churches Or may our Church alter that that is Apostolicall Or why should these ceremonyes be more necessary for our Church then for other Churches Or not decent for other Churches and yet decent for ours If also Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction be in vested into the crowne except the King and with him the officers of the crowne be only the Church our Church hath no power to alter them having no Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction resident in it selfe The latter part of this answer is needles our assemblyes beyng already gathered What a foolish gross absurditie also is it to insinuate that an invisible cross or a smockish surplice should be of any effecacy for gathering of assemblyes G. Powel 3 Yea these particulars Subscription Ceremonyes etc being jmposed by the Church and commaunded by the Magistrate are necessary to be observed under payne of sinne seeing he that resisteth authority resisteth the ordinance of God Reply What if they be commanded onely by the Christian Magistrate not jmposed by the Church Or jmposed by the Church onely the Magistrat beyng an infidell or a persecuter of the Church Can payne of sinne also be without payne of damnation Are not those things that are to be obyed contradictiō under payne of damnation necessary to salvation Hence also it followeth that things once commaūded by the Church or Magistrat especially by both are as holy as the jmmediate commandements of God The particular inconveniences and absurdities heerof are infinit What also is heere sayd that was not wont to be sayd by the Papists against the Martyrs G. Powel 4 That they are thinges indifferent etc. and may be used without sinne we haue proved in a booke De Adiaphoris Reply Alas M. Powell make not such account of your booke De Adiaphoris then which there never came more simple stuffe from any man reputed learned You had neede to recant your blasphemous poynt therein against the authority of Christ Iesus for making lawes in his Church Uerily you might as well haue denyed him to be a King and a redeemer To the 5 part of this answer unto this 16. Argument reply hath often been made That thes things are become bones of contention is onely the fault of the Prelats that striue with might and maine for them They acknowledge that they haue power to alter and remoue them and the see great reason so to doe neither can they giue any reasons but childish for continuance of them and yet to the great dishonor of God and to the greefe of thowsands of the godly they reteyne them For our parts if we were not troubled for them we would be so farre from contending about them that we would never aske after them neither would we care if we never saw them THE 17. ARGVMENT God hath lately visited us with a fearefull pestilence which yet is not ceassed and the end of all his chastisements is Psal 94 12 Heb. 12 19. Revel 3 19 Levi 26 18 Iohn 5 14 Psal 193 Psa 116 12 to make us all the better by them Yea to make us more Zealous which if we doe not he threateneth worse thinges unto us God hath also lately mightely delivered us from the greatest danger that ever any people were in to this end also that we might prayse him the more and that all Estates may more seriously consult and deliberate what to giue unto the Lord for all his benefites 2 Chron 32 25 And this is the more to be considered because the Lord tooke the unthankfulnes of Hezekia in a small matter for his health very unkindly This our former deliverance also was the greater because it was wrought without the meanes of our prayers Ergo The High Court of Parliament ought to be the more Zealous for the gospell etc the rather now because they know not at least many of them whither ever they shall haue the like opportunitie agayne or no. Yea that so also their thankfulnes may be as publik and renouned as our deliverance Yea their zeale must be the more against all Popery in respect of our danger by the Papist for the rooting out of every stump thereof that their soules may haue the more comfort especially in death and that their memory may be the more honorable with all posterity This is the generall substance of the 17. Argument though amplified by many perticular places examples of scripture Now let us see what is sayd against the same in the notes and in the Further answer Marginall notes G. Powel a The mistake the ends as those Gentiles did who affirmed they were plagued because of the Christians contempt of their Gods Reply Nay you haue forgotten your Logike in mistaking the end for the efficient cause The Gentils did not affirme themselues plagued to the end the Christians might contemne their Gods but because they thought they had contemned their Gods This error is in all the answer following For the author tooke not upon him to particularize the sinnes for which God had visited the land but onely to shew what the Lord looked for from us both by his works of Iustice and also by his workes of mercy and goodnes amongst us Therefore the notary and answerer in all that followeth sitteth besides the cushion Agayne what doth this note else import but a soothing up of thēselues and of all other in their sinnes that they may not enter into perticular examination and judging of themselues When as euery man and every state should perticularly censure and judge himselfe and his sinnes to haue had a stroke in provoking the wrath of God so against us And therefore happy had it been for the Prelats if they had smitten themselues upon the brests for their hard dealing with the Church in restraynyng the Lords servants that would haue given every one in the Lords houshould his portion in due season So happy also were it if every other state and person would doe the