no Doctor vpon his bare word without scripture or reason and as we folow his lesson therein so yet we add further that be a man neuer so auncient and well learned and let hym bring neuer so much scripture and reason yet except he be allowed of the churche he is to be eschewed with all his 〈◊〉 and learning For if it shall please you to learne more iudgement this 〈◊〉 must vnderstand 〈…〉 in all places of all persons To dispute of that which the whole church doth obserue through the world â–ª it is saieth S. Austyne a most impudent madnes and therfor it may be rightlye and well beleiued first of all that which the whole church doth teach vs. But what if ther be schismes and diuisions in the church for thetyme present Mary Syr then we must resort vnto Antiquitie and aske counsell of the most auncient fathers But then agayne what if the auncient fathers agree not emong themselfes Truly then we must folow the voyces of the most and best learned of them And so by these meanes we haue three places of refuge Vniuersalitye Antiquitye and CoÌ„sent And we the Catholikes haue most certaine and infallible rules by which we do trye priuate opinions of doctors geauing lesse vnto them then you do which esteeme your owne iudgemeÌ„tes so highlye except thâ—â— agree with the church of Christ or agree with other of their 〈…〉 as though that the Catholikes did make an article of faith of euery thing which thei reade in the fathers but consider rather that we trye them more exactly then you doe and we can not be straitwaies persuaded without further question if the best learned that euer was shold bring scripture and reason to proue his singular opinion Yet seeing that you can finde in your harte so quicklie to yeld vnto the learned and holy mens scriptures or good reasons although there is a better waye which you shold take neuertheles to lett you haue a litle your owne mynde what saie you now vnto S. Cyrill his wordes be these vnto Calosyrius They are then madd which saye the mystical beâ—ediction or blessing to recise from her sanctification if any leauinges remayne vntyll the next daye ' Because the very holy body of Christ shall not be chainged but the vertue blessing and lyuely quyckenyng is in it rather This is S. Cyrill against you an how can you auoyde hym You wyll not you say playnlie deny the place because it is alleaged of diuers other Yet because this worke of S. Cyrill is not extant you haue good cause to suspect it Although the worke be not extant vnto you yet it maye be in some libraries of the world and the place being alleaged of many an honest plaine dealing man would not suspect without some good and great cause that it were falsely fathered vpon S. Cirill For if the Catholikes could haue founde in their hartes to haue mysused the simplicitie of others and to attribute vnto holie fathers such sentences as were neuer thers it had ben an easie matter for the Bisshoppes of Christendome in that great consent and peace of faith which hath ben in the church for eight or nine hundred yeares togeather vntill the dyuell raised vpp Luther to haue agreed vpoÌ„ such a booke which should make expressely against new vpstart heretikes and haue the name of S. Augustine S. Ambrose S. Hierome or some other And againe it had ben an easye matter for some one Bisshop Abbot or Doctor to fayne that he had fouÌ„de such or such a booke of S. Augustine S. Ambrose S. Hierome or other if there had ben no more conscience in Catholikes then is proued to be now in heretikes It is sone said this is not Saint Cyrill his testimonie and as the prouerbe is in some scholes Plus potest asinus negare quà m Aristoteles probare And further also if the Catholikes should be perceiued neuer to haue had emong them this testimonie of S. Cyrill before that late heretikes of these dayes beganne to impugne them openlye as one might easely alleage at all aduenture vpon some priuate wylfulnes that S. Cyrill sayeth this vnto Calosyrius so might he probably be suspected of an other lest perchauÌ„se he inuented false testimonies But you can not proue it by vs that we haue vsed this defence out of S. Cyrill only sence we haue striued against you but rather when all thinges were quyet you shall finde those testimonies which you suspect to haue ben recyted of Catholikes And especiallye that saying of his which maketh for the supremacie of the Bishop of Rome which some hundred yeares agoe S. Thomas Aquinas hath recyted out of S. Cyrill Thesaurorum .xij. which testimony if it be not in the Latyn now extant yet it maye be in the Greeke and what Greeke copyes are beyonde sea you can not tell and if it be not in print yet it may be in wryten bookes whereas many yeares before any printing was in the world this testimonie is alleaged by approued men and excellent both for learning and lyuing Also if you haue cause to suspect the testimonie which hath not the worke extant out of which it was taken what cause moued you then to make so greate store of a fragment of Gelasius which you doe allwaies alleage most busylye when you talke of receyuing vnder both kyndes And allthough Gelaâ—sius in that selfe same abrupt and short sentence doth expresselye declare that he speaketh against such as which vpon a certayne superstition abstayned from the receyuing of Christ his bloud and serueth nothing at all vnto the purpose of which we talke Yet you delight so much in it as though all were fysâ—he which commeth to your nett and no testimony were to be suspected which may seeme to serue for your purpose although the work be not extant Whereby it appeareth that you picke onlye a quarrell againste the testimonye which we bring out of S. Cyrill and myslyke with it not because the worke is not extant but because he calleth you madd men in reprouing reseruation of the sacrament Now wheÌ„ you haue said as much as you could to the disgracyng of the testimony then flatter you with it agayne and saye But be yt so that these are Cyrill his owne wordes in deede â–ª we haue for that one suspected place a numbre of sounde testimonyes that all dyd not allow reseruation nor thinke it according to the worde of God You geaue and take awaye againe You graunt that they shall be Saint Cyrill his owne wordes in deede and yet stratwayes you call it a suspected place But lett vs consider how sounde your testimonies beâ— First you alleage Origine which in deede hath those wordes which you recite but his meaningâ— yet was not to reproue all reseruation of the sacrament â–ª For he expounding those wordes Leu. 7. in which it is commaunded that the flesshe of the sacrifice which shall be offred in
preuailyng against the truthe and lesse alteration would be permitted but seeing man is free and master of his owne actions thei can be no more then warned that thei seeke after truth and folowe it God be mercifull vnto vs and if he hath saied it by some of his Prophetes vpon vs that for our synnes sake and dishonoring of his exceding greate name we shall be caried awaye prisoners in to Babilon yet as Ezechias the Kinge answered for his tyme if we allso maye be so fauored of hym Bonus sermo Domini quem locutus est sit pax veritas in diebus nostris It is a good saying which our Lord hath spoken yet for our daies let there be peace and veritie Fare well From Louanie the second of March A REPLIE AGAINSTE THE FALSENAMED DEfence of the truthe CAP. I. WHETHER M. Iuell or the author of the Apologie of pryuate Masse haue for their partes done all thinges so perfectly that they may or shold be defended of those which are of the same opinion and faith with them in the one syde it may be a questiō and on the other I know it is none at all For as concernyng the folowers of new religiōs which beleiue that the true light ys reueled in these last dayes they haue to stryue and labor for them whom they take for their Apostells but the Catholike whose faith ys not to finding owt in the end of the world he hath not to hang vpon any one mans authoritie except he be such as ys commended by the whole worlds testimonie Yet forasmuch as the answerer to the Apologie of priuate masse beginneth first with the author of that verie Apologie I will not by my silence be thowght to confesse hym vtterly giltie and yet I will not make for him suche hard shift and stoute defence as thowgh any part of owr cause were lost if he be not thoroughly cleared Therefor to begyn with yow which would seeme to defend the truth what fault doe yow fynd with the author of the Apologie of priuate Masse Fyrst of all yow reproue him sharplye that he bringeth hys owne sense vnto M. Iuels wordes and after so reason against it as though it were his meaning But how proue yow this vpō hym Mary the Bishope of Salisburie say yow ▪ He neuer said simplie that he should make no rekonyng of his doctrine because he was Bishope Trulie neither the Apologie doth simplie so report of hym But his wordes rather be these I maruell not a litle why yow being reputed a man of such lerning wtterlie refuse to proue the doctrine you teache alleaging verie slender causes of your refusall c. Meanyng hys vocation to so high a Rome and the place where he tawght and the honorable estate of the audience and the doctrine authorised by the realme Now it is .ij. thinges to saye I refuse to do this and I should not do this Or els ▪ I refuse to do this and I alleage my vocatiō for one cause and I shold not do this because I am a Bishope For in refusing and alleaging cause of it there ys greater occasion geauen of further consideration but in sayng I should not do this because I am a Bishope there ys small grace shewed because of so hastie conclusion This second kynd of phrase ys for them which stand gloriouslie vpon their honor and estimation but the first agreeth euen with such as are readie to fullfill their vocation The one sentence doth challenge a thing of dutie the other emploieth within it a reason and cōueniencie And to be short the one may be spoken mildlye discreetly and charitablie but the other is vttered I thinke stoutlie vnwyselie and presumptuouslie Wherefor Sir you make the matter worse by your telling then it was in the author his writyng and yow find fault with others for misreporting and miscōstruing prouiding not in the meane while for your selfe to vse and shew true dealing The Catholike doth not take M. Iuell to be so folishe as to thinke that because he is a Bishope he should make no rekonyng of his doctrine but he marueleth rather his lerning cōsidered that he would alleage such causes as he dyd for the refusall of prouing his doctrine And so he may yet still maruell at it But say you my Lord Bishope dyd not saye he should not proue his doctrine but that he might not well do it without further licence Wherein truly you do take very much from a Bishope his libertie if he can not safely cōferr with such as D. Cole is withowt obteinyng of licence And you will troble allso the coūsell of the realme with more matters then needfull if they shall make so litle of their Bishopes that they are not to be trusted with vsing of their office except they first aske leaue and licence Yf the Catholikes which are in prison were such greuouse offendars against the state that it might be suspected they would practise all treason then in deed for suertie that none of their religion might come vnto them it were not done vnwyselie to make the restraint generall and then might a new Bisshope doubt perchaunse to conferr with them without further licence But where as all the fault which is laied to their charge hath no other name but papistrie and old religion M. Iuels doubt was more then needfull to refuse the prouyng of his doctrine without further licence But it ys well that you will declare vnto vs the rightfullnes of his refusall and make his part more probable Wherein your reasonyng is this VVere it good reason think you that a magistrate at the demaund of euerie subiect should bring reason to proue any law publisshed by the prince to be good c. Neither euery demaund neither euery subiect is to be answered and God forbed that either cardmaker or tapster or fyddler or peddler should be permitted emōg their pottes and packes to sitt iudges vpō great Doctours or reuerend Canons of generall Councells Yea trulie if either gentlemā or marchant would captiouslie and proudlie appose the priest or curate of his parishe it were not to be suffered But is D. Cole euery man and the good and lerned Catholikes which continue in indurance are they no more to be regarded then the common sort of Englishe men or on the other syde are they to be abhorred as a singular sort of wicked men To submitt the iudgement of the Prince and realme to the myslykyng of one wayward subiect I graunt with yow it would be great impeachmēt to the Princes authoritie ▪ neuerthelesse to defend the iudgemēt which hath passed by consent of any Prince or realme it cōmendeth their estimation and dignitie But concernyng waywardnes hath D. Cole shewed hym selfe to be such a one in his request and letter to M. Iuel In deed you speake brodely of hym and say that he required a proufe of M. Iuels doctrine vnder pretence of lernyng but in deed
dyd because thei had so receiued of their predecessors and fathers whose wysedomes thei had not to suspect yet you were not content with the licence grauÌ„ted vnto you of disputyng with them but you would allso apoint vnto them what order thei should take in the matter And for all their possession yet you would dryue them to shew their euidencies What if thei had lost their writinges or could not fynd them presently or wold not shew them to such as you were ys their silence or refusall in that behalfe to be accompted for a losse of their cause But thankes be to your Bishoperickes when you be now well placed you are content that the plaintyfe shoulde first and formost shew his euidence And now it ys against reason that the possessor should take the person of a plaintyfe which before this tyme would not be grauÌ„ted whiles your selfes were out of all possession But how say yow if the Catholikes doe continually yet keepe their possession for the Bishopes of Fraunce Spaigne Germanie and Italy are not yet dryuen out of their chaires and places of the Apostells And as long as they keepe their romes you can not enter in to the churche as it were a house forsaken and destitute how then will you dryue them out by force vi armis In deede it ys one of the cheifest wayes by which the new ghospel hath proceded which if you can not as yet folow thoroughly you must then either lett them alone which you do not as appeareth by your sermons writinges or els bring furth your euideÌ„ces against them which be in possession But no reason shall preuaile except it make for you and therefor you passe not vpon the possession which the Catholikes hold and keepe in the world but you wyll dryue them to the prouyng of such articles as doe offend you and for your owne part you will stand vpon the negatiue The resting vpoÌ„ which because you say it ys mistaken lett vs heare your expositioÌ„ how it must be vnderstanded M. Iuell say you perceauyng vs to make this auauÌ„t that the church hath taught as we doe these xvC yeares dyd both wyselie and lernedly see that there was none so fytt way to dryue vs from it As to rest vpon this true negatiue that we haue no sufâ—icient proufe out of the authorities of scriptures fathers or councells But Syr how can your wysedome serue you to think that because you will haue vs to proue our doctrine therefor we must do it Yf euerie Catholike Bishope in the world should in his owne conscience haue mislyked the vse of the Catholike church in sundrie articles yet for the reuerence which they owe vnto antiquitie they should not without euident and manifest reason haue lightly geauen ouer their old orders for the strength of tradition ys so great that allthough I could see no reason why I should defend it yet I should not contempne their authoritie from whom it was receiued For lyke as in the Epistle vnto the Romanes which epistell traditioÌ„ teacheth me to be S. Paules I must not blott out euerie sentence which vnto my iudgemeÌ„t may seeme either vntrue either vnprofitable but reuerently thinke that all ys well allthough my vnderstandyng be very euill so when the churche of Christ doth generallie receaue and folow a custome I ought to iudge the best of it allthough I were not able to proue it To dispute of that which the whole churche thorough the world doth vse it is sayeth S. Augustyne a poynt of most insolent madnes Yf therefor being able to geaue no other reason for my beleife then only traditioÌ„ I should not rasshely depart from it shall my aduersary require of me a cause of my doinges in wryting and except I shew it owt of hand pull me away from my religion Lett me suppose that you browght M. Iuell vnto me and that he should find me standing in this poynt of the Catholike faith that it ys not of necessitie required in a Christen man to receiue vnder both kyndes What might he thinke you say vnto me either wysely either lernedly agaynst me you would make hym I know to speake after this sort that I haue no sufficient proufe owt of Scriptures Doctours or Councells to make for me Yes Syr would I answer and please you I haue sufficient authoritie for my beleife therein but I am not disposed to tell you of it and I would not care to take a blowe for so answering a Bisshope Yes Mary shall he saye if you had any you would alleage it and except you tell me of one or other you shall be accounted to make only an auaunt and in deed to haue nothing And here I trow if all Catholikes should hold their peace in lyke manner as I do it should be declared at Paules crosse the next sunday folowing that the papistes haue no one sentence or word to make for them in all Scripture Doctours and CouÌ„cells Well Sir then allthough this be to much iniury and oppression because the Catholikes were not disposed to refell your negatiue therevpon to conclude that they are able to say nothing I will yet goe further with you and graunt for disputation sake that which for truth sake is to be denyed And what is that forsoth that I haue no other cause in all the world for defence of the article which I mentioned but only this one that it hath very long and quietly continued How say you in this case wyll you stand still vpon the negatiue which for trying of your wysedome I graunt vnto you And to keepe your negatiue wil you deny that receiuyng in one kynd only hath not ben long vsed in the church No verely that can you not doe because it is so playne and euident that receiuyng in one kynd hath continuance of tyme and approued practise of Christendome for it that your selues doe crye out and gapple in pulpites that many hundred of yeres togeather before you were breathed owt in to the worlde all Christendome as in sundrie other pointes so in that allso was miserablie deceaued How then you will perchaunse proue vnto me that my argumeÌ„t is not good because all the world hath hytherto ben seduced And truly what other thing you might say I can not tell For when I shold yeld vnto you that I haue no Scripture Doctour or Councel for coÌ„munion in both kyndes and when you should not well call me vnreasonable for dwelling against you in that article and opinion alleageing the coÌ„sent and vse of Christendome for me either you must declare that reason of myne to be nothing worth the staying vpon or els you must hold your peace as hauing no more to saye vnto me or els you must repete your begynning againe and harpe madlye vpon one string in telling me that I can shew no sufficient sentence exaÌ„ple or authoritie why coÌ„munion should be geauen vnder one kynd only Now as you haue to muche varietie
the vestmentes of Christ full of redd spottes as if he had come lately from the wynepresse he alleageth allso the institution of Christ and the testimonie of S. Paule by which both places he proueth that we should offer vp not water onlye but allso wyne Then he maketh further argument saying that the mixture of wyne and water in the chalice togeather doth signifie the coniunction of Christ and his church and that if wyne be offered vp alone the bloud of Christ is without vs and that if water alone be offered vp then the people begyn to be without Christ. Which reason of his if you wyll cōtempne I am sory that S. Cyprian hath so sone displeased you whom you seemed to make so much of before But as concernyng the argument of that epistle he proueth by those testimonies which I haue touched and by many other waies that in the offering which the priest maketh water and wyne bothe are to be mengled and that it was Christ his institution so to doe and that Christ only is to be folowed therein and that we must do herein no other thing thē that which Christ hymselfe dyd first of all Now Sir then with what face can you alleage S. Cyprian for proufe of your proposition which is generall whereas he speaketh of water and wyne to be mengled when the priest doth sacrifice which us a speciall case onlye And see how the dyuel dyd owe you a shame If you wyll refuse Saint Cyprian in that place then standeth your maior like a miserable proposition without any similitude of defence If you alowe S. Cyprian how standeth your religion in whose communion and Lordes table water and wyne are not mengled togeather which should be so duly and necessarily obserued Will you saie here that the field is not lost and that this is but an ouerthrow of one wing only Do you fight for the victorie and not for the veritie so that you may be semed to have somwhat allwaies to saie do you make no conscience nor rekonyng of your vniust and foule plaie Answer directly vnto this one argument or confesse your falsehode or ignorance and geaue ouer your stryuing against the manifest veritie If all thinges are to be obserued in such manner as Christ hath them instituted wherefor haue you no water in the chalice which Christ as S. Cyprian proueth hath so solemply delyuered Now on the other syde if some thinges may be well vnfolowed which Christ hymselfe apointed why make you such a generall stoute proposition which by yourselfe is so quicklye neglected For the mixture of wyne and water in the chalice you can not saie that you haue no authoritie of scripture no example of primitiue church no testimonie of auncient Doctour for in that one epistle of Saint Cypriane of which we speake which you seeme not to haue readen onlye but allso to alow you shall find all those places by which the veritie of this tradition may be proued Where then is your memorie That which S. Cyprian of purpose declareth of the mixture of wyne and water in the chalice you either see not or regard not and that which you put furth of the generall obseruing and keeping whatsoeuer Christ dyd in the institution of his sacrament is not at all in that epistle and yet you can read it there proued at large And here now I haue to saie further against you that you do not rightly interprete not only his mynd but not so much as his wordes For whereas that blessed martir saieth Admonitos autem nos scias vt in calice offerendo dominica traditio seruetur ▪ which is Know you further that we be warned that in offering of the chalice the tradition of our Lord be kept you interprete it after this fasshion Do you know therefor that we be admonisshed that in offering the sacrament of the Lords bloud his owne institution should be kept For examinyng of which your interpretation if you should be brought but vnto a Grammar schole dominica traditio is to shortly Englisshed his owne institution and in calice offerendo is to ignorantly Englisshed in the offering of the sacrament of the Lords bloud so that I beleeue verely if the Scholemaster were not very much a sleepe he would beare softly at your backe doore and make you to remember yourselfe better But if litle regard be taken of construction which is made in scholes yet it is to be prouyded diligently that no false construction be sett furth in print especially in such kind of matter as apperteineth vnto our sowle and is of so great weight and efficacie that it maketh or marreth an heresie You Englissh traditio not tradition but institution And whi rather institution then tradition Verely for no other cause I thinke but for that you abhorr the name of tradition and because you would seeme to the ignorant Reader to be a great fauorer of Christ his institution You Englisshe in calice offerendo after this sort in offering the sacrament of the Lords bloud and whi not rather in offering the chalice as the wordes themselues do signifie You had no litle craft in your mynd when you sett vpon the translating of this plaine sentence and for the word chalice to substitute the sacrament of the Lords bloud it was a deceitfull enterprise For if you would haue plainely saied as S. Cyprians wordes do signifie that in offering the chalice the tradition of our Lord be kept the diligent Reader would haue ben moved to require what tradition that should be which must be obserued in offering the chalice and he should be truly answered that it was the tradition of vsing not wyne alone or water alone but water and wyne both in the chalice togeather which would much disgrace your communion But when you make S. Cyprian to sound after this sense that in offering the sacrament of the Lords bloud his owne institution is to be folowed you geaue occasion to a simple and vnexpert Reader to thinke that hereby it is manifestly proued that the lay people at these daies allso must necessarily receiue his bloud because he in his institutiō of his sacramēt delyuered furth allso his bloud Whiche S. Cyprian yet dyd no more thinke vpon then he feared least any grāmarian should come many hundred yeares after hym and interprete his plaine wordes in such a froward sense as you haue done And so in the Englisshing furth of the selfesame sentence after these wordes and no other thing to be done then that the Lord dyd first for vs hymselue you make a full periode and point whereas it foloweth in S. Cyprian as clause of the same sentence that in deede we should doe as our Lord had done first hymselfe but wherein and how farr trowe you in all thinges and all circumstancies no truly For straitwaies it foloweth in S. Cyprian and it is the limitation of the whole proposition that the chalice which is offered vp in
But the sore and greauous vexing of her the yexing and casting vpp of that which she had receyued appeared first when the bloud of Christ was powred into her mouth And note the cause wherfore it appeared then first that the childe had ben before polluted Mary sayeth Saint Cyprian the drinke which was sanctifyed in the bloud of our Lorde did burst vpp out of the polluted bowelles So great is the power of God so great is his maiestie Yf therfore the presence and maiestie of God when it came into the babe dyd straytwaies reueale that which before was vnknowen his power and presence being no lesse vnder the forme of bread then it is of wyne out of all doubt the fact of the child had ben bewrayed before she had com to the receyuing of wyne if it had receyued the sacrameÌ„t first of all in forme of bread Because the power and maiestie of God which is fully and perfectly vnder the forme of bread would not haue stayed in the defyled mouth or bodye but straytwayes haue worked to the example of others And therfor the argument of the Catholike coÌ„tinueth in all his strength and force allthough the child were vexed before it receyued of the chalice For it was not vexed at the tyme of prayer so sore that it cast vpp anything and the fault was not espyed before the bloud was powred into her and then it was first of al opened because of the presence and maiesty of God whose presence being as certayne vnder one kynde as vnder the other the sacrament of the bodye would no more haue taryed within her then the sacrament of the bloud if the childe had receyued the body before the bloud well then say you If it were so it ys not most euident that yt was either because the child was so yong that it could not or so trobled that yt would not take the sacrament of the bodye As concerning the formost of these causes it is very credible for that it seemeth by S. Cyprian that it was a sucking childe lefte vpon the handes of the nurse the parentes being fled awaye But the second is very vnlyke for as the resistence on the childes part did not let the Deacon but that he powred the bloud into her mouth so although she would not haue takeÌ„ the sacrament of the body yet she might as well haue ben enforced therevnto as to receyue of the chalice And allso if that opinyon which you holde now had then ben in the church that it is against Christ his institution to receiue vnder one kynde they would neuer haue profered the chalice vnto any such as would not haue receyued first and for most the bodye as you are wont to recite a fragment out of Gelasius which you vnderstand not that the diuision of one and the selfe same misterie can not be done without great sacrilege But lett both your reasons stande is it not proued then sufficiently that to receyue in both kindes is not of the necessitie of Christ his institution And where then is your witt to graunt us that by which our purpose is brought to passe For allthough you think that you shall take no foyle to graunt that in necessitie one kynde might be vsed and that necessitie which hath no law maye cause a commaundemeÌ„t of God to be omitted and allthough you maye be so easily entreated to permit receiuyng in one kynde that because the childe of whom we haue spoken would not or could not receiue the sacrameÌ„t of Christ his bodye you think it to be a case of necessity in which the institution and law of Christ should or might be omitted yet if you coÌ„sider that your selfe do take the receiuing vnder both kyndes to be of the substance of Christ his institution and not of the circumstance and to be not an ornameÌ„t only but an expresse commaundement certainly when you graunt vs that in any kinde of case it maye be allowed to receyue the Sacrament vnder one forme either of bread or wyne you be straitwaies conuicted that Christ his institution doth not necessarilye requyre them both For such coÌ„maundemeÌ„tes of God as are geauen concernyng circumstances and ceremonyes they maye be omitted in tyme of necessitie without any offence committed but if he geaue commaundemeÌ„t for the necessary and substancyall either forme or matter of any sacrifice or sacrament necessitie can not excuse vs if we should offer sacrifice or minister sacrameÌ„t in other forme and matter theÌ„ was appointed by God But to omit and leaue altogeather vndone the coÌ„maundemeÌ„t I meane of sacrifice or sacrameÌ„t therein necessitie shall haue good place and saue vs from the daunger of the law Wherefore you which make the receyuing vnder both kyndes to be of the necessary substance of Christ his institutioÌ„ doe vtterly destroye this your strainge conclusion in graunting that sometymes one kinde may be lawfully vsed and you speake allso in laboring for communion in both kindes directly against your father Luther which in more theÌ„ one place declareth the precept of receyuing both kindes to be in it selfe indiffereÌ„t and such as he at his owne pleasure in some cases would either vse or refuse Whereby it maye well be gathered how lytle ye passe either what ye affirme either what ye denye which saye that any man conuersant in Luthers bookes maye right well iudge that it is not so as we reporte of hym The .xij. and .xiij. Chapiter FRoÌ„ this place furth although the Catholike doth frame the coÌ„clusion of his treatyse vnto which when any one cometh he seemeth to be at the ende of his labor yet by reason of this conclusion such principal matters are moued that if they should be answered throughlye we had neede to make a new begynnyng For we haue to reason about the contynuaÌ„ce of the church the authority of the Fathers and the reall presence of Christ in the sacrament which are so necessarye and cheif pointes to be considered that I must not speake nothing of them and yet I haue ben so long here before in trying the master of the defence that I must not saye all that I can but with conuenient spede dyspatch these worthye questions First then as it hath ben proued against you that the syxe hundred yeares which immedyatly folowed the aâ—cension of our Sauiour are not wholye with you for all your great crakes so we may wonder not a lytle why you make exception against these last nyne hundred yeares by the practyse of which you refuse to be tryed Is this thinke you a small and weeke argument to confirme and staye our consciences vpon that for .ix. hundred yeares space you our aduersaries can not deny vnto vs but that all Bishops Vniuersities Realmes and states of Christendome haue quyetlie continued in one kynde of true Apostolike fayth vntyll within these few dayes that all the olde catholike religion hath in some places ben abolyshed by publike authoritie If a rennegat and
the heate of his preachementes he could not but take a noune to his bedfellow And as he was in his doinges so is he in his writinges so shameles so fylthy so vncleane so slaunderous so mutable so presumptious and so desperate that it is wonder that he is accompted for a man much lesse for a man of God I speake these thinges to declare what difference ther is betweene our holy Abbates and your rennegate fryars the folowers of our religion and the founders of yours to enforce you hereby to shew what you thinke of S. Bernard S. Bonauenture S. Denyse and others and to signifye hereby vnto you that as we staye vpon contynuance and numbre so yet we reioyce at the vertues and graces which haue and do appeare playnly in many of this numbre wherefore it is not without cause that we are confirmed in our fayth and doctryne because of such a contynuance of it Note that I saye such a contynuanbe For Turkes Sarracenes and Panymes may alleage contynuance but such a contynuance in which the doctrine taught is greauous vnto the carnall man and yet receyued and the greatest professors of it are hated of all heretikes and yet for conscience and wordlye shame are not cōdemned such a one I say is much to be regarded and such a one is not found but onlye emong the Catholikes whose waies in doctrine if they be not open secure especially so great cumpany for so long tyme going in them with prosperous faring to their iourneyes end then will I neuer trust any waye but be as the cumpany is indifferent to go with euery one vntyll I am wery But thankes be to God he hath better prouyded for vs appointing his catholike churche to be the pyller and staye of true religion Which although it is quyckly to be founde out because it is in deede Catholike yet you thinke it necessarye to examyne what is the church and how it maye be knowen Goe to then we will follow you to the end of your defence in euery conclusion which you make against vs. The Scripture saye you speaketh of the church two waies sometyme as it is in deede before God not knowen allwaie to mans iudgement c. Sometyme the church is taken for the vniuersall multitude of all those which beyng dispersed through the world acknowledge one Christ. c. Sometyme the church is taken for the multitude of those that beare rule in the church You performe more then you promysed We looked but for two wayes and you haue declared three in which the scripture speaketh of the church by which it appeareth that you haue pretye knowledge but you keepe lytle good ordre in setting furth your diuisions Yet goe to as concerning the first sense which you make of the church what make you of her Can it err or no No say you this church is the pyller of truth that neuer continueth in error This church is neuer forsaken of the spirite of God In to this church none be receyued but onlye the children of grace and adoption How might a man then I praye you know this church Verely neither you neither any other can tell For whereas it consisteth of such as be the elect and chosen who can saye either of hymselfe that he is one of them or how can one say that of an other whose hart he seeth not which he can not vnderstand of his owne case which is best knowen vnto hymselfe Therfore as cōcerning the profyt and cōmoditye which they that would might take of this churche which is the pyller of truth we can receyue very lytle of it because she is inuisible vnto man and knowen onlye before God And if you dare saye that this churche may also be knowen vnto man I would you had showen one token or other of her that we might be sure where to fynde the pyller of truthe Now as concerning the church which is dispersed through the worlde and acknowledgeth one Christ and is Through baptisme admitted thervnto and by the vse of the Lordes supper openlye professeth the vnitie therof in doctryne and charitie Is this church trow you the pyller of truthe or what other opinion shall we haue of her This church saye you is resembled vnto a nett which hath good and bad in it it is resembled vnto a field which hath pure corne and cockle also in it You saye herein trulye and you agree now very wel with the catholike church which teacheth vs that in this world the good and euyll Christians are mengled togeather You make also much against certayne heretikes which stand in it stoutly that onely the elect are of the howsehold and familye of God which yet as you haue clerkely defined it can not be so because the good and the badd which acknowledge one Christ and receyue the sacramētes are the true church of Christ. Graunting therefor vnto you that the church hath good men and euill in her I aske now the cause of you wherfore you labor to proue that this church maye goe out of the waye for some part of her you tell vs of Noe of the .x. trybes of Israell of the Prophetes of the captiuitie of Babilon and other such historyes But to what end and purpose yf you wil proue thereby that thei which beare the name of the people of God haue often tymes forsaken his law and destroyed his Prophetes you haue spoken that for proufe wherof I wold neuer haue gone to the flood of Noe hauing so many examples at home to make this conclusion manifest For all they which be Christened doe beare the name of the people of God and the promyses are made only vnto them yet this world maye declare how many coniurars dissemblers wycked lyuers faithlesse ministers lecherous friars and desperate peruerters of all law and honestie doe lyue in the churche But if you would proue that because a great numbre was deceyued therefore the whole churche was subuerted you speake alltogeather without booke For to consider one example for all in the tyme of Elias the Prophet when he good man thought that all had forsaken God besydes hym selfe yet said God vnto hym I haue lefte my selfe seuen thousand in Israell which haue not bowed their knees before Baal And before that it is playne by the booke of kynges that Abdyas the stewarde of kyng Achab his house dyd hyde a hundred Prophetes of God from the sight of Iezabell the quene and fedd thē with bread and water Therefore as it can not be denyed but that they which haue borne the name of the people of God haue not allwayes and wholy folowed hym so yet it can neuer be proued that the visible church of God hath ben in all her partes subuerted And yet in the old law the church was not then so richely endowed as it was afterward in the commyng of Christ and his holie ghost neither were those wordes spokē then which haue