to hym And agayne Aunsvver a foole accordyng to his foolyshnes lest he may seme to himself to be vvise It may novv of good congruence be uerified in the cause vttered in question for order of ministers appareill It is not vnlznovven vvhat argumentes and conclusions vvhat letters and vvrytynges haue ben vsed and tossed from man to man in secrete sort for these tvvo or three yeres to disprouue the libertie of the chyldren of God in the vse of externe thynges to conuel the obedience that true Subiectes shoulde perfourme to the auctoritie of theyr Prince to the lavves of the Realme established to the discredityng and condemnation of such vvhich in a vvhole conscience thynlze it lavvefull for them to vveare and yet charitably beeryng vvith the vvealznes of such vvhose consciences are entangled vvith fearefull scrupulositie tovvarde the same IT is well knowen that the matter was not handled so secretlie these ii or iii. yeres but openly setforth in the pulpit these seuen yeres without any grete contradiction but it may be said this is your houre Wee may loke for great truth in the body of your discourse when your begnnyng is so farced with lyes This cause was not taken in hand to disproue your libertie but rather to prouue that your libertie shold not be made necessity as the lettar of a certaine bishop written to à noble man witnessith And to teach you to use your libertie to profit and edification according to those sayings all things are laufull for me but all things do not edifie Let no man seke his owne profit but an other mans neyther to conuell for so yow terme it the obediens to the Prince and her lawes but to teach cheife obedience to god and his word nor to discredit and condemne them that can away with them for wee allwais iudged of them as S. Paull willith they staÌ„d or fall to their Lord for if wee had condemnid them wee wold neuer haue coÌ„municated with them but to discharg our own consciences and to labor for the synceritie as well in rites as in doctrin As for the charitable bearing wich yow speake of doth litill appere in these sayiÌ„gs subscribe or be depriued wear or preach not This is but small bearing The small vveight of theyr reasons and argumentes so set out theyr cause so harde to defende vvithlearnyng so many graue vvryters of iudgement agaynste them the matter sullye debated by the best learned men of the Realme of late vvith thorder of the counsayle talzen in the tyme of blessed memorie Kyng Edvvarde and fully concluded caused diuers men beyng yet offended vvith suche vnaduised vvrytynges to holde theyr pennes vvithout more confuting or disprouyng the same as vvas easye for them to do partly stayed by the fyrst part of Salomont counsayle Ne respondeas stulto iuxta stultitiam suam ne efficiaris ei similis Yea moreouer charitie borne to the aucthours of such vvrytynges moued some men to lzepe pacience and the counsell of S. Paule helde others in silence vvheras he chargeth his scholer Timothe thus Stultas ineruditas questiones respue setens eas parere pugnas porro seruum Domini non oportet pugnare sed placidum esse erga omnes propensum ad docendum tolerantem malos cum mansuètudine erudientem eos qui obsistunt si quando det illis Deus â—oenitentiam ad a gnoscenduÌ„ veritatem resipiscant a diaboli laqueo captiab eo ad ipsius voluntatem Foolyshe and vnlearned questions put from thee remembryng that thei do but gender stryse for the seruaunt of the Lorde must not striue but must be peaceable vnto all men and apt to teache and one that can suffer the euill in melzenes and can infourme them that resist yf that God at any tyme vvyll geue them repentaunce for to knovve the trueth that they may comme to them selues agayne out of the snare of the deuyll vvhch are novve taken of hym at hys vvyll These be wordes of course common to all them that go about to ouertrhow any cause wich because they are brought in without prose wee may stand to the deniall The argumeÌ„ts wear more weightie than yow cold auoid and whan yow haue by Gods word confuted them than yow may more iustlie call them weake The cause so easye to defend with lerning and scripture that yow neuar durst assaile it so many graue writers against yow the matter neuar fully debated by the best lerned in this Realme but of necessitie enioyned them caused yow to staye your pen vntill now their necessarie defeÌ„ce caused yow to write soÌ„thing least yow should be thought to haue nothinge Yf the rule of S. Paull had bene kept this question of popish Ceremonies had not bene thus ernestlie moued nor so sharplie folowd But Paulls place is wroÌ„glie alleged by yow for that he meanith questioÌ„s of genelogyes c. wich pertayne nothing to doctrin nor disceplyne in churchs of Christ The question of rites and ceremonies yow knowe Paull him self and the writers both olde and newe haue diligentlie handled and therfore may not be thought a foolish and vnlerned question To enforce this text at this tyme in the particuler appliyng therof shal be spared yet for hope of their amendement uuho hauer disorderlye behaued them selues To exagerat the matter agaynste them vvith muche alleaging learned mens iudgementes many dead some yet alyue othervvise then to in struct theÌ„ by a fevv reported shal also be spared as it vvould haue ben vvyshed the matter vvhooly myght rather vvith scilence haue ben styll buryed But novv the prouocation of a treatise so solemlye aduouched so confidentlye affirmed of very late so publiquely by print diuulged and dispearsed hath made this vvryter novve to thynlze it hygh tymn tocall to remenbraunce the latter part of Salomons fentence RespoÌ„de stulto iuxta stultitiaÌ„ suaÌ„ ne videatur sibi sapieÌ„s Not yet profossyng by this examination to say halfe so much as myght he spolzen in the comprehension af the cause nor talzyng so much aduauntage agaynst that inconsiderat vvrytyng as it myght deserue to be charged but briefely to put to the aucthours consideration the vuealznes of the reasons the sophistication of the arguments of that discourse unuuorthy of it selfe to saye ihe truetht to be once aunsuuered as beyng so uuritten as euery man but such as be eyther to parcially bent to the cause or for lalze of learnyng can not expende the substaunce of the Vurityng maye perceyue that it muste nedes fall to ruyne decaye of credite of it selfe though no man should bende any force at it houu soeuer in the heate uuich is nouu talzen thought to be nuittyly grauely inuincibly uurytten but uuorthy in deede to be put out in the name of such uuhom it uuould speciali defende A good deuine shold spare at all tymes to inforce textes of scriptures wich he ought rather rightlie to applie according to the meaning of the holie gost As yow deligiht in ynkehorne terms
and borrwed spechis as exagerat diuulged dispensed comprehension expend concor de infarce expect ītimate c. so somtime yow vse them as one not well acquainted with thē Whan yow say publickly diuulged Non loqueris vulgo yow speke not to the common people yow can speke twise as much as yow doe O noble rhetorician yow willnot take so muche aduantage against the inconsiderat writing it is not worthie anye answrere it will faull to ruine of it selfe Nowe wold to god yow wold haue writ as muchas yow could and are hable Yf ye aslize me uuhom I coulde thinlze to be under the protection thereof Surely I can not see that diuers suche as be learned and commōly iudged to be amongest this number can muche ioy to fight under that banner or o runne uuith them to that marlze they shoote at For it is certaine that many uuhō this smale route named London Ministers uuoulde haue ioyned uuith them for their more honestie be farre from their determonations in this question neither so handling it nor so uuolde conclude in this cause as they do VVho houusoeuer some of them do yet a litle stay at the using of this apparel in themselues yet be not of their iudgement to condemne the thyngs of uuyclzednes nether in them selues nor in the use of them as the Ministers in this Church of Englande be caled no uue to uueare them And therefore houusoeuer they uuoulde uuyshe a libertie to theyr ouune consciences reserued tyll they may see more in the cause yet be they farre of to condemne theyr brothers uuhose consciences can serue them for obedience salze to use them Yow wold fayne perswade mē that no lerned men are of oure iudgment but wee kowe that the gretist part of the best lernid yea of them that weare them were of this opiniō No man to our knowleg cōdemnith the things nor the vsers of them of wickednes And yow your selfe in your examination often affirm that wee graunt them to be indifferent And therfore I must nedes uuype a great many out of their brotherohed in their singularities enteyned in this last uuriting and say Thei be but a ueri feuue in them selues other then such as haue ben eyther unlearnedly brought up most in prophane occupations or suche as be puffed up in an arroganere of them selues peraduenture chargeable to suche vanities of assertions as at this tyme I uuyll spare to charge them God graunt they do not by this degree fall to the sectes of Anabaptistes or Libertines uuhere unto some uuyse and zelous men of their ouune frendes Patrones feare they do malze poste haste one day openly to professe Yf yow with all the lerned of your side wold procure us a free and a generall disputacion to haue the matter quietly debated ād indifferentlie iudged yow shoulde se a great nōber redie to defēded our cause with their tongs whom yow now blot out with your penn for it is well known that not onelie a few vnlerned brought vp in prophane occupations as yow vncharitable and slaūderuslie report but a gret nomber of wise godlie and lernid men such as haue bene and are the eldest prearchers in England neuar stayned with any recantacion or subscription brought upp in all kind of lerning both of artes and toungs such as haue the name not onelie at home but also in forraine nations to be in the nomber of the best lerned in the realm agree with us in this cause and of them partly haue wee lernid this iudgment Wherfore yow haue lost more credit with all indifferent men by this your slanderus defacing of vs then all your examination is able to pourchase to your cause Of the same spirit it procedith that yow charg us with post hast towards the sectes of Anabaptists and Libertins wich ar fo farr frome such detestable heresies as yow are frome christian charitie so to iudge of vs. As ar the argumēts of multitude customes orders and lerning are fet from the schole of papists whom by this kind of reasoning yow more confirme in their errour than strēghthen your cause or weaken ours To be called from an occupation to the mynisterie of the church is no more reproch nowe to men mete for that function then it was to Petar Paull and the rest of the apostoles Yf they were vnmete than the Bishopes are to be blamed for admitting them and most of all for retayning and daylie multiplyng others whom nothing ells but a capp and a Surples do make cōmendable VVhereupon the aduersaires af true religion can uuinne no great reioyce at these mens ouersightes as being but a uery feuue and counted in deede none of the sincere and learned protestauntes houusoeuer for a tyme thei seemed to be amongest us For though they be gone out from us yet they uuere belylze neuer of us So that the aduersaries shall haue the uuhole state of the Clergie in place and reputation for learnyng uuy sdome and grauitie concordely ioyned to be uuholy against them to defend the sinceritie of the Gospel though a feuue of these malze suche adoo in our Churche as stories malze mention uuas euer uuont some to ryse in sundry tymes to trouble the state of their Churches uuhere they duuelt And good it uuere that these Englis he Louanistes dyd no to muche delight them selues uuith any hye reioysinges as though the Prince uuoulde for disprouyng of a feuue counterfaites dislylze the uuhole state of the rest of the Cleargie uuho shall by Gods grace be able ynough to defende the true religion of the Gospell uuhiehe they maye heare houue the Prince doth professe dayly and openly to maintaine and defende to the uttermost iote of the uuorde of God uuith renoncing asuuell all forrayne aucthoritie as all forrayne doctrine not surely grounded upon this stable roclze of Goods uuorde Their faunuing flatterie prefaces their greatly conceyued hopes their busie dispraisyng of better learned then them selues be can not so be uuitche uuise mens heades or hartes but they cā discerne trueth frō falsehood deuotion frō superstitiōpapistrye from the Gospell tirany frō discipline Christ frō Antichrist And therefore sirs if ye lzneuue houne feuue these are by uuhom ye delyght to slaunder the learned honue lytle uue thinlze the rest of the Apostles discrepited though Iudas fell out frō them and houue these be regarded and accompted of so longe as they thus continue and finally houue lytle uue shall ioy of them and use them to take the Gospell in defence agaynst you Ye uuoulde not be so busie to infarce in your boolzes the reproche of these men to lade other uuith enuye the breath of uuhose penues ye shall neuer be able to aunsuuere say and uuryte uuhat ye can yourboolzes so fast and hastyly sent oner in great nūbers beyng not muche feared for any substaunce that is in them may for a time relieue you to your sustentation may be gaineful to your Printers Pedlours may peraduenture ieoparde your frendes uuithin
all be donne to edefinge not to be ment of domme thinges but thinges that wearred spoken or songe therfore was it necessarie to proue them out of godes worde SubstancialiÌ„e Wher you saye our Minor is not proued although we are men of occupation yet wee vnderstande that a vniuersall minor negatiue can not be well coÌ„firmed Yet our particular minors they ar al redie touched in the Table and herafler as you giue coccasion shal be particularlie proued The examiner The fyrst discorse here is of edifiyng or buyldyng the Churche of Christ which all faythfull Ministers do acknowledge to be theyr bounden duetie and seruice accordyng to the graces of God bestowed vpon them and neuer to hinder and plucke downe awhit wherof much more myght be said then is here rehearsed if it were nedefull to wade further in so worthy a matter Herewithall in textes and expositions you woulde not greatly haue enlarged your booke Ephes 2. if it had not ben to make al gods workemen sauiÌ„g your selues suspected to the world as pluckers downe aÌ„d destroyers of Gods most holy TeÌ„ple Fphes 4. buylded vppon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophetes when as through the grace of God workyng in theÌ„ by true and sounde doctrine in this apparell and orders manye earnest labourers of the lordes do trauayle to bryng his people to the full knowledge of Christ houesoeuer you haue entangled and accombred the consciences of your hearers So then to the two fyrst places that be out of the second and fourth Chapter to the Ephesians no more needeth to be spoken but that all the carefull buylders in this Churche of Christ whiche haue other commaunded or receyued these lawfull orders fyrst as they haue before time so do still take paynes to amplifie and beautifie the spouse of Christ with the precious iewels of spirituall wysedome And secondly do vtterly forsake vayne vngodly and vnprofitable inuentioÌ„s of man whiche two thynges you seeme to require by your note in a true preacher and can not denye them yf you be not wylfull to be in very many vsyng this apparell The Aunsvverer You confesse it is the dutie of ministers allwaies to builde and neuar to hinder or pluke downe but hear of oure texte and expositiones you wolde not haue iudged so rashlie yf you had remembred what our Sauioursayth Nolite iudicare Mat. 7. c. Iudge not Wee do not affirme that they are all destroiers and pullers down of the Temple that weare the paparell but wee may well say that all the destrioyers and pullers downe are glad to be couerid in this Apparell And that the Ceremonies and apparell tend not to edification but destruction for that no man by them is directed to Christ and the sinceritie of the Gospell neyther yet prouoked to amendment of lyfe but to Antichrist and the remenbraunce of poperie Caluin sayth that al Ceremonies are corrupte and hurfull except men be directed by them vnto Christ And for these Cerimonies that are vsed in papacie they are seperated from doctrine so that they kepe men in signes lacking all fignifications thus fare Cal. Inst li. 4 cap. 10. sect 15. Secondly whether they refuse all vaine vngodly and vnprofitable inuentions which receue this apparell must be tried by the conclusion of the matter Yet wee are not more to be accused ffor condemning the receuers then you for condemninge vs the refusers agreing with the most excelent reformed Chirchis of Fraunce Germanie and â—cotland and will yow see how yow haue setforwardes godes building in the Cytie of London Did you not in one day vnfurnish and quite dispatch of work men all the placis in the Cytie whereas any greate bildinge was and haue you not heitherto kept backe those workmen ffrom ther worke And haue you furnished these places with such diligent laborers againe and what can this be els but to stay hinder and plucke downe godes building The examiner Vpon this vniuer sall sentenc That Christes Ministers must huilde vp and not pull downe you determine that Vicars Curates and parishe Priestes ought to admit no orders whiche may not manifestly appeare vnto them that they do edifie Geuing eueri man in his paryshe an absolute authoritie muche more then they had before the prophecie was fulfilled Kynges shal be thy Nursefathers Esa 4â— and Queenes thy Nurses The Aunsvuerer Wee suppose that euerie pastor ought to be so far lernid that he may iudg of such matters or else wee thinke him not worthie to be a minister and what inconueniens commith of this affirmation wee do not yet see forasmuch as S. Paull willith euerie man to be certenlye perswaded in his own mynd whether it be lawfull or no though the matter be neuar so indifferent For he that doubtith is condemnid because he wantith faith Esa 49. and that wich is not of faith is syâ—ne Werfore when the scripture biddith all things to be done to edesie A good pastor should admit nothing but that wich he is perswaded will edifiâ— 1. Sam. 14. And of this iudgement is that reuerend â—father Peter Martir in plaine Words who putting a difference betwen Ecclesticall and polliticall lawes saith Spectanda est in in Ecclesiasticis â–ª Eutaxia in politicis autem parendum est quamuis tu eam euxtaxiam non videas In ecclesiasticall lawes good order must be considered but in polliticall lawes thow must obey allthough thow see not that good order But where yow name vicars curats aÌ„d parrish prests wherof wee made no mention in our declaration leuing out Archibishopes Bishopes Deanes Archedecons Prebendaries Cannons and Parsons wee marnell what yow meane vnles yow thinke none of them so mad as to ioyne with vs in this cause Isa 49. Yet shall she porest mynisters euen euerie vicar curat and parrish priest as yow call them haue as great authoritie in the ministration of the word and Sacraments in his Church as any of these prelates whom yow spare to name Wee confesse that kings and Quees shold be Nurcies of the Church but not Lordes of it not of our consciens wich the wordes immediatelie following in Isaye doth playnlie declare bownig down ther face to the erth they shall worship the and licke the dust of thy fet The authoritie that princis haue ouer the churchis is a seruice to defend it and to seke the profit therof raither then a prerogatiue to burthen it with superfluus and hurtfull Ceremonies at there pleasure The Examiner Yet you fearyng the inconueniences that must nedes folowe so an absurde an opinion remember your selues in the next lynes and saye That if you myght but conceyue an hope that the vse of these thynges myght helpe forwarde the Lordes buyidyng you woulde not refuse them So one tyme all orders not manifestly edifyng must be condempned another tyme yf you may hope that they wyll do well you will admit them This your chaungeable opinion well weyed differeth not much from that straunge saying of
the Donatistes August Epist 119. of who se number one Ticonius sayde Quod volumus sanctum est What we wyll is holy The Aunsunerer Wee fear no such inconueniens and therfore your racke our wordes as plesith yow Thear is no chaungeable opinion to be gathe red of our Wordes vnlese yow are more like the Donaristes wich for so small a fault cut of your bretherne from yow if it weare anye falt at all And the sayning of Ticonius may be more iustlie applyed to yow for what popish Ceremonies yow reiect they are vnhollye and what yow will receue that is good and orderlye yow reiect the vestement and rerayne the Cope yow reiect the Albe and retaine the Surplese yow reiect the stole and retaine the typpet yow reiect the shauen crown and retayne the square Capp And yeat these and such like are in one predicament Why yow should kepe the one and refuse the other wee knon not but by this rule Quod volumus sanctum est The Examiner If you had beniÌ„ S. Epla 119 Augustines time when the Church was burthened with humaine presumptions so that the condition of the lewes was more tollerable as he wytnesseth then the state of Christes Church in those dayes belike you would not haue continued preachyng and ministring as he and other did because those burthenâ— Were not at the syrst dashe cleane taken from your shoulders But he learned and taught other that Multa toleranda vbi facultas non datur resecandi Many thynges muste be borne when orderly meenes do not serue to cut them of Yea he tried by experience than some tymes profitable alteryng of such thynges as were long accoustomed bread trouble in the Churche by newnes of chaunge as these his wordes testifie Ipsa quippe mutatio consuetudinis etiam que adiuuat vtilitate Epla 18. nouitate perturbat For the very chaunge of custome as it may do good for the profite thereof so it may make much troble for thee wâ—es therof Thâ— this learned father would haue men to expect in alteration done by publike authoritie conuenient tyme and season in matters that myght he tollerated without Gods heauy displeasure The Aunsvverer Sainct Augustin him felse was not burthened with those humaine presumptions that he writith of neyther dothe he counsell his frend Ianuary to beare with them at all Yf wee ad bene in his tyme wee wold not onelie haue lamentid with him the vntolerable burden of Ceremonies but also haue labored to haue them vtterlie abolished as he him felse giuith counsell wich arguith that wee would continew preaching and ministring wich is the chefest way to deface them yt is a pleasant iest for yow to saye wee refuse preaching whem you forbid vs your felse wich wold be content to be with owt the lyuing so you wold giue vs lyberte that waye to discharge our consciens yf wee had bene in S. August tyme wee are verylie perswaded that he wold not haue put vs from the ministe rie fynding none other fault with vs but that wee refuse vpon good Consciens that wich he vpon good consideration thought mete to be taken awaye His iudgmentwas that such things as haue not authority in scripture nor are concluded in counsells nor confirmed by custome of the vniuersall Churchs but are variable and of a doubtfull begining Vbi facultas tribuitur sine vlla dubitatione resecanda Epistola 119. 1. Sam. 14. Martir also saith that Ceremonies are so long to be suffered as they make to order and to some profet of the Church but when they are no logger profitable then with out all stickâ—g and dout â— Sam. 14. they are to be taken awaye The Examiner Here before you shewe what ruine and destructioÌ„ of gods building these fewe orders law fully enioyned do make frankely you graunt all these thynges refused nowe of you to be of theyr ownn nature indifferent and that they may be vsed or not vsed as occasion shall serue It is harde to say whether this be the mynde of all the shrinking refusing Ministers of London who are knowen herein not to be of one iudgement yea it is affirmed of you a litle after in your declaration that they be monumentes of idolatry and so to be vtterly destroied Heb. 10. that they be contrarye to Scripture and so also not be receyued though Prynces commaunde them The Aunsvverer Wee are not so franke in graunting but yow are more franke in receyuing of that wich no maÌ„ grantith When wee graunt them to be indifferent wee speke of the substans matter and creature wee graunt not that they are indifferent in euerie kind of vse And whaÌ„ wee affirme them to be monumentes of idolatrie wee affirme that wich yow cannot denye therfore are they to be banishedowt from trew religion And as they are monumentes of idolattie and slombling blockes to the weke they are no to be receiued though all the Princis in the world command them The exammer A man myght aske of you what vse that is whiche causeth these thiÌ„ges noune not to be indifferent the vse that hath ben or the vse that they are nowe appointed vnto If the indifferencie of these orders hange vpon the vse then we must loke wherevnto they are ordeyned and not wherein they were before abused The aunsuurer Aman might aunswere yow that bothe the vse that hath bene and the vse that nowe is causith them now not to be indifferent for that wich hath bene abused and is not necessarie nor profitable to be retayned is cleane to be abolis hed and changed onelie in things profitable and necessarie the abuse is to be cleane taken away and the thing it selfe to be retainid Neither must wee loke onelie to what end they are retayned but what end folowith the retayning of them Wee deni not but that they are reteynid of a good intent but wee see that an euill end doth followe of the restoring of theÌ„ Namelie the popish preistes which are the greter nomber of the clergie vse them for the same end they did in poperie And that the ignorant people can conceue no other thiÌ„g of them but that the seruis of god hathe grete nede of them Therfore for bothe the vses these are not now indifferent giuing manifest offence to the weake open incorragment to the Enymie and ignorant Conserning the former vse Musculus saith afler this maner afler he that shewid potestaem liciti But theare nedith diligent discretion in this cause that a Minister accopt not those thinges indifferent which ayther because thei are against gods word or else for superstitioÌ„ and wicked seruis do deserue iust abomination Cap. 5. â—radi Conserning the latter vse Musculus also saith to conclud I thinke that altradicions are to be refused wich are against the word of god wich are idle vaine and vnprofitable which are vnhonest and vncomelie which haue but a shew of supersticion which are greuus and burdenus c But Martir
grauntith in his epistle that these as they are now comaunded in that it is not lawfull to doe otherwise are greuus and burthenus and that therewith Papistes goe obout to mayntay ne a litill spice of thier Masse therfore are they by Musenlus iudgment to be refused As for the other properties in their place they are or shal be shewed to ly in theis things Yf any such new vse of old superstitius garments had bene necessarie or comendable the Earings Baalls vessells and the brasen Serpent might so haue bene conserued and conuertid wich Iacob Iosias and Ezechias destroyed whose godly zeale wee thinke our selues bound to followe raither then your new application The Examiner Nowe are you come to thee hiefe poynt of â—he first argument which is as you say that Christes Church is not edisied by these garmentes Which assertion you go about to per swade two wayes First because the simple Christans are greeued and are redy thereby to fall from Christ These whom you tearme simple Christians are those who as may well appeare perswade themselues to haue deepe knowledge in Gods worde to haue growen to so certayne a perfection that thay can and wyll sodeynlye iudge of all men and of all doctrine and they thynke them selues to be setteled and quieted in greater matters then these They see weyghtyer thynges in the Church yf they see any thyng at all whereat they may be greeued as other good men are and yet must be contented tyll God graunt fitte and orderly meanes to remoue them with charitie to beare lest the vnitie of Christes Church shoulde be rent vpon euery lyght offence and horrible scisme for trifles be brought in The Aunsvuerer The asscrtione is well proued That doth not edifiâ— which doth destroye that which greuith the simple Christians doth destroye therfore it doth not edifie This reason yow graunt but yow will nedes perswade them that it dothe not greue them Because they are perswaded in greter matters So might the vncharitable abusers of there libertie among the Romanes and Corinthians haue aunswered Sainct Paull for they that were greued with meates and drinkes had receyued the faith of CHRIST but all men haue not knowledge though yow will beare them in haÌ„d that they haue for allthough they see and are greued to behold greater matters vnreformed yet that is no cause why these thiÌ„ ges should be with charity borne withall Lib. 3. ca. 19. s 13. Ler ne that of Caluin as our libertie saithe he must be in fesus Christ to charitie so charity must be subiect to the puritie of faith Bucer not oneli in priuat lettres but also in publike comeÌ„taris in Math. 18. agreith to the same Vnde nihil dicunt qui perpetuo iactant maiora esse quae vrgeri oporteat quam reformationem ceremoniarum in Antichristi reliquii patrocinantes ceremoniae enâ—m testes religionis sunt c. wherfore they say nothing that continualli bost that there are greter matters to be vrged then the reformacion of ceremonies herebi defending the relikes of Antichrist for Ceremonies are witnessis of religion c. But by the way wee pray yow remember tw thiÌ„gs first that yow confesse these to be waightie SecoÌ„dlie that among so mani waightier thiÌ„gs you reforme none which causeth vs to be lesse willing to ioync with yow in this The Examiner But the simple in deede Heb. 5 who are yet to be fedde with mylke who haue not through custome theyr wittes exercised are sore greued and that iustlye seeyng you not receyue indifferent and comely orders Of whiche sort thousandes are dryuen backe by suche kynde of disobedience as yours is whyles you wylfully withdrawe your selues from your dueties and charge of Gods beloued children and the deare flocke of Christ wherin if you haue taught your Nouices that shese ordinaunces such other are superfluous idolatrious and superstitious when they are for decencie and order sake by lawfull auchoritie thus left vpon whiche teachyng their offence may arise you ought nowe on gods behalfe otherwayes to infourme them But yf they be taught to â—ake these thynges as Gods worde doth prefuribe then your wearyng shall not be the woundyng of theyr consciences neyther by Gods grace shal you neede to feare the heauy curse of God whereof you write I pray God it be not as at S. Augustines tyme that this troublyng of the weake Epi. 1.8 come not by the contentious obstinacie of some brethren as is before saide The aunsuuerer 11 The simple hauenede to be fede with the pure milke of the gospell not myngled with the poison of Antichrist lest it brede such a disease in them as when thei are olde they shal be scarse albe to shake of Christ blys his his babes frome such milke wich S. Paull ne uar dreamid of Yf Irenae were aliue he would saye as he thought of victor that you make the horrible schisme wich for trifills as yow terme them do thrust your brotherne frome yow who be fore liued and labored in louing consent with yow Yf thowsands be greued whan wee do our duties sincerlie wee wil aunsvvere be fore the iudgement seat of Christ of a good conscience grounded vpon gods vvor de Our sauior Christ biddith vs let them alone vvith thier blind guids For they thay preteÌ„d most greif are papistes aÌ„d no Weake gospellars And conserning offense wich is one of the thechefest causes whi wee refuse this apparel they are most offended that are best pleasid with it for thei are confirmid inther supersticius opinion of these things are boldned by example to do that wherof there consciencis doubtith and is not enstructed by gods word And this is also the sentence of Bucer in the place before alleged Infirmorum rationem ita habebunt vt ni hil temere nihil importune saciant sed cum summa mansuetu dine docebunt infirmos sapere fortius tamen exemplis pro uchere illos dabunt operam neque paucorum qui antichristi ce remoniis aequo adictiores sunt fortasse non ueri fratres morabuntur cecitatem ut plurimos interim infirmes alios offendant quibus nunquam ista cogitatio non in animo uersatur si ista tâ mala essent abolerentur si tam bona opere ea cuncti presertim qui christi uolunt haberi amplecterentur They shall haue such respecte vnto the weake that they do nothiÌ„g rashlie nothiÌ„g out of season but with greate gentillnes they shall teach the weake to waxe strong in vnderstaÌ„ding and yet by examples shall labor to set them forward neyther shal they regard the blindnes of a few that are to much addicte to the Ceremonies of Antichrist which peradueÌ„ture are no trew brethern in the meane while to ofend many other which haue allwais this cogitation in their hart if these thiÌ„gs were so euill they should be abolished if these things wer so good all meÌ„ specialli they that be accoÌ„pted of Christ wold embrace
Deut. 7. leste those Gentyles shoulde be made more obstinate in their false religion as you alleage the cause but rather as the text declareth leste Gods seruauntes shoulde there by fal vnto their idolatrie For they were charged not to bryng that heathynyshe people to Gods true seruice but to rote them cleane out of the land which they had so wickedly polluted wherfore you do wrye this place from his natural sense The Aunsvverer Yow would fayne proue that wee wry the text from his sence as yow do your selffe to often Yea and in this place misreport vs out cause is vttered in these wordes lest they in vsing anye of these things should geue occasion to the heathen to thinke that the god of heuen aÌ„d Earthe had anie pleasur in these things or nede of the vse of theÌ„ in his true seruis and this is our onely reason wich well followith of yours God willed say yow that all the Cananites Ceremonies shold be destroyed lest his people by vsing such Ceremonies shold be snared ergo as wee saye god by so doing shewed he had no nede of such Ceremonies Neyther any pleasure in theÌ„ Thus whilist yow haue sought a knot in a rush your cauil is not worth a rush Notwith standing though we graunt your collection to be trewe yet of one thing ther might be dyuerse ends one was lest gods people hould fall into idolatrye And wee might hold also that this was an other ende lest the Cananites should be more obstynat Wich wee gather of that that god forbad them to make couenant with them but to destroy thier Imagis c. they were not for bidden to bring them to gods seruise for Rahab was receyued vvith all her house but the obstynate vvere commaunded to be roted out vvich thing the Israelites did not performe and therfore it may be iustlie gathered that God in prouideÌ„ce seing they vvould not doe it gaue commaundement to destroy thei idolls vvith all thier furniture lest they vvhich remayned should thinke their religion vvas in part allovved vvich was not vterlie ouerthrowne The examiner Vpon this text you adde a note in the margent That al monumentes of Idolatrie must be destroyed signifieng what your auditours and readers shoulde iudge of these orders which yet you your selues sometimes acknowledge to be indifferent and maye be vsed when occasion shall serue If these thynges required at your handes be preciselye vnder that commandement of God to his people enteryng the lande of Canaan then is all this controuersie is at an ende Proue that and al is done It woulde helpe you very much in this matter to consider that there is great difference betwixte those thynges that were meerly inuented of the Heathen to the worshyp of Idols and to maynteyne idolatrie and those that haue ben abused of papistes specially these fewe thynges beyng first institute for no such intent The aunsuurrrer The maior you graunt that all monumentes of Idolatrie must be destroyed vpon the profe of your minor you dare aduenture your cause A monument is a remnant of a thing that is left or set vp for a remembrans these be such remnantes and call popery into remembraunce wich is Idolatry and not onely remenbraunce but some aestimacion therfore they are monumentes of idolatry But yow will haue them proued preciselie vnder the Commaundement that shalbie done two waies first because not onlye the image it selfe but all that belong vnto yt euen the golde and siluer of them is accursed Deut. 7. also wee must abolish the verie names of them Deut. 12. Dauid also agreith that he willnot onelye abstaine frome sacrificing with Idolaters but also denieth to take thier names in his lipps Psal 16. The prophet Esay speking of them vvhich are trulie conuertid from Idolatrie commaundith them saynig yow shall pollute the couering of the image of siluer and cast them awaye as a menstruus clothe and thovv shalt say vnto it auant or get the kence Esay 30. according to this meaning did Iehu vvhose zeale in this fact the holie gost praisith Not onely destroy the imagis of Baall and his preistes but also thier vestments vvhich he comaunded to be brought out of the vestrie for theÌ„ And if Ieroboames calues Balls Imagis alters vestements be vnder this comaundement then by Peter Martyrs iudgement these things are preciselie vnder the same commaundement who comparith them togither as all of one sort in these wordes Cauere ita debent Lutherani ne duÌ„ exciderint multos papisticos errores mitentur Iehum retinendo adhuc permulta papisâ—ica defenduÌ„t enim adhuc presentiam corporis Christi realem corporalem substantialem ut loquntur in pane coenae Domini tuentur imagines tuentur vestes alia permulta huius generis Sicut Iehu cum ueri Dei cultu idololatriam uitulorum obseruat non est in religione ad hunc modum agendum tota quippe repur ganda est ad uiuum emendanda Also the Lutherans must take hede lest after thei haue cut of manie popish errors they follow Iehu by retaninge still manie popish thinges for they defend still the reall corporall and substancial presens as they call it of the bodie of Christe in the bread of the Lordes supper they maintaine Images they maintaine garmentes and many other thinges of this sort As Iehu with the worship of the trew god obserued the idolatrie of the Calues wee must not do som religioÌ„ for it must be altogether purged and wholie reformed to the quicke And speking of Elias which repaired the Lordes altar he saithei fait etiam hoc quod indignumputet vt Iehouae sacrificium offeretur super altare Baalis cum tamen hâ— die nonnulli sunt qui in administranda vera Coena Domini uti uelint papisticis uestibus instrumentis This also he doeth because he thinkith it an vnworthie thinge that he Sacrifice of the Lorde should be offered vpon Balles Altar Wheras there be some now a dais which in ministring the trew supper of the Lord will vse the popish garments instruments and these senteÌ„cies are in the last workes that euer Peter martyr wrot Yf yow list to cauill of the creatures of god wee haue made aunswrere before that all things of gods creation are good but here al godlie meÌ„ maye see how hatefull all idolaters vsage are when for their sakes the creatures of god are accursed Yf you say that coÌ„maundemeÌ„t perteynith onely to that time of thier furst entrie the saing of Dauid and Esay which the exeÌ„ple of Iehu will coÌ„fute yow But before wee take further paynes in this matter Wee thinke best to demauÌ„de of yow two questioÌ„s on whether yow willstaÌ„d to your promesse Proue this aÌ„d al is don The other whether you allue the authoritie of P. Martir aÌ„d S. Aug. for profe of your honestie wee haue good hope and therfore lese of your fidelitie Of your iudgement wee presume because yow alledgÌ„ bothe the autors as proffes against vs.
which seke not to plese men but to shew them selues the seruāts of Christ which for the more detestation of Antichrist and clerer attestation of Christian liberty and for auoiding of strife and dissention wish and labor to abolish all remembrancis of Idolatri As for the sectaries called Audiani they misliked the fathers of Nicean counsel for that they wold not kepe Estar at such tyme as the Iewis kept their passouer and therfore they are more like vnto them then wee that carenot how like thei seme in outeward rites unto the papists The examiner Surely the examples whiche you bring in of wicked Kinges and false Prophetes might haue well at this time in this cause ben pretermitted as whiche concerne matters expressely forbidden or commaunded by God but that you woulde intimate to some not well stayed that the Prince in these thinges suffereth them contrary to Gods word and her lawfull aucthoritie whiche thankes be to our heauenly father for his abonndaunt blisinges most richly powred vppon her is altogether otherwayes or that all preachers and subiectes obeying so orderly demaūdes are but false Prophetes and flatterers This is very sore iudgement to condemne all your brethren for man-pleasers that obey their supreme gouernour vnder god in matters indifferent of whom as you knowe a great number when flaterie was muche more gaynefull refused to do it with no small daunger The aunsuuerer Yf nothing be expreselie forbidden by gods word but that which is expreselie named in gods word the Masse the Pope Purgatoire with a thowsand monsters be not expressely forbidden and thefore maye be named things indifferent but yf all that be contrarie to gods worde which is contrary to any generall rule of holy Srripture wee haue showed before that these thinges are not indifferent because they are the glorius badges of the enimy with whome wee maye not in any such thing communicate they offend the weake greue the godly confirme the obstinat aedifie not maintaine supersticion make contention are vncomely c. To aunswer your vncharitable surmise of our indgment were nedles because it bewrayith it selffe yet to vncouer your Sophistrie because of the simpell it shall not be amisse All though wee affirme that these things suffred or set forth by the Prīce are be sides gods worde but being perswaded by you and such as you are that they may stand with gods word your Sophistry is ab ignoratione elenchi or a non causa procausa The examiner Epi. gene And if you marke your note well Flatterie hath not ben alwayes the sure marke of false teachers For your shall reade S. Iude foretell of some that should despise them that were in aucthoritie Aug. Epi. 48. You shall reade of the Donatistes Rogations Circumcellions and Papistes that are rather disobedient to iust and good lawes of Princes for that as they sey they see not in the writinges of the Euangelistes and Apostles any suche example The aunsuuerer None despise them that be in authorite more then flatterers which speke fayer to their faces and condemne them in their harts The Donatists Epi. gene Aug. Epla 48. Rogatians Circumcellians and Papists haue all wais bene flaterers wher they haue hope to be entertained To such disobedient parasites you do vniustly and vngentlie compare your Brethern The examiner Nowe for the maner and condition of true Prophetes Eze. 13. whiche you assure vs is to aduouche alwayes Haec dicit dominus Thus sayeth the Lorde It is maruaile you remembred not in what thinges that was then necessary and wherein it is requiered nowe Trueli you are not so vnskilfull but that you knowe sundry seuerall thinges to be left to their iudgement who may for the more handsome feeding of Christessheepe 1. Cor 11. and not for their owne purse belly or kitchin say with S. Paule ¶ Other thinges when I come I will set in an order Al rites and fashions which euery natiō beleuing mai stablishe and vse are not distinctly rehearsed in Scripture that the minister may say of euery one of them Thus sayeth the Lorde It is sufficient in suche thinges yf they truely serue to EVTAXIA that is seemly order to retaine the which the Church hath power to abrogate olde and make newe lawes wherein sayeth Doctour Peter Martir these conditions must be obserued ¶ First that they be not contrari to Gods word Then that iustification and remission of sinnes be not sought for in them Thirdly that the multitude ouerwhelme not the Churche Fourthly that they be not decreed as necessari and not to be changed Last of all that they be not so vrged as yf he sinned dampnablie that sometime omitteth them without offence or contempt Suche lawes then albeit they be not in plaine termes and wordes mentioned in the scripture yet hauing these properties they are not to be reiected as yf they were by no maner of meanes in the worde of God The aunsuurere It is nedles you thinke in orders and Ceremonies to say hoc dicit Dominus Thus saith the lorde because sainct Paull saith other things whan I come I will set in order This is neither good logicke nor witty Sophistrie what a consequent is this S. Paull will set things in order whan he comith Ergo he will not or nede not set them in order according to the word of god S. Paull is wont to giue warning whā he spekith of things wherof he hath no commaundement of the Lord. Thus saye I and not the Lord. 1. Cor. 7. That I speke I speke it not afler the lord 2. Cor. 11. But when he prescribed orders to the Church of Corinth cōserning the reuerent vse of the Sacrament he saith that which he deliuered he receyuid of the Lord condemning all for disorder that was not receyued of the Lord. The same night he was betrayed Yow will cauil of the tyme place and companie Wee are not so ignorant how foeuar wee haue bene brought vpp in prophane occupacions but wee can distinguiss he and make a difference of things done at the institution of the Sacrament that some pertaine to the Sacramēt as the bread the wyne the sitting at the table the blissing the breaking the deliuering the receyuing the preching of the Lordes deth In the which action wee thinke nothing was omitted that serued ayther for reuerence of the Sacramēt or for decent and orderly mynistrīg of the same Therfore what so euer is addedor changid for these causis at the lest wee thinke it superfluus if it be not presūptius to seme more wise in these poyncts then Christ And his Apostells that were contented with this pure and innmingled institution Other thinges there were in the institution that were no part of it nor pertaynid to it as the tyme at night after supper the place a parler the certayne nomber 12 and suche like These are indifferent for wee reede in the scripture that all these circumstancis were chāged And of such are the rules of D. Peter
martyr to be vnderstode which if they were obserued wee shold not long be trobled whith these matters The examiner It is a pitifull case to see howe you trouble your selues in comparing Christ preachyng the will of his father and the Phariseis teaching their owne traditions as if any man inforceth nowe mans lawe as part of Gods diuine seruice or as if these orders vppon necessitie of saluacion must be receyued â—d Cassul and Gods blessed worde troden vnder foote Yet sainct Augustine is thus bolde touching the obseruation of profitable rites in Christes Churche that he thynketh the contempteus breaker of Ecclesiasticall orders to be corrected as transgressours of Gods lawes The Aunsuuerer It is a pittefull case to see yow so stoutlie maintaine precepts of meÌ„ against the word of god as though all precepts and tradicions vnlesse they be inforced as a part of gods dyuine seruice or vpon necessitie of saluacion are to be receyued What can the Papist say more in defense of mens traditions The Pharisies as is touched before made not much more of their tradicions then the tradicions of their elders though they were as yow are more zealus for them then for gods lawe And as for S. Augustin his rule first proue these to be profitable and then vse then spare not The examiner The Apostles you say preached not the dreames of their owne heades Ast. 15 and yet for all that they made orders for the Churche whiche continued their times and season whereof we reade not their particuler commission 1. Cor. â—â— 14 True it is as you report that S. Paule willed not men to followe his deuises neither preached he him selfe at any tyme. What then Did he not appoint temporall rites in the Churche which he had not VerbatiÌ„ expressely at his masters haÌ„ds and whiche nowe ceasse and are not in vse Ephi lib 3 Tom 1â— the lyke is said of suche doynges of the other Apostoles whose constitutions were altered after their death The Aunsuuerer You shall neuer be able to proue the Apostoles made any orders or constitutions but they were agreable to the generall rules of Scripture before often rehersed The Examiner You conclude thus because these thinges haue no commaundement nor grounde in Gods worde therefore you refuse them Fyrst special commaundement needeth not in this part of Ecclesiasticall discipline The edification order decencie authoritie of supreme magistrates haue grouÌ„de sufficieÌ„t in the newe Testament and olde Last of all you should haue proued that they had no grounde in Scriptures But that thing youe neuer once touched but rannea rouyng vpon the Maior to bleare the simple Christians eyes as if you had sayd much of the matter when you neuer come towarde it The Aunsvverer It is trew all edisication order and decencie and authoritie of magistrates haue groundes in the Scripture but your apparrell hath not anie aedification deceÌ„cie or order nor lawfull authoritie for wee haue no power but to edifie Thefore it hath no grownd in the Scripture and all this hath bene spoken of before The Examiner Passyng from this fourth reason you frame an obiection vnto your selues as it liketh your selues and aunswere vnto it as you liste Your obiection is That the Prince commaunding a thing indifferent and profitable for the of the Churche may be added must be obayed whereupon you say it must folowe you disobeyng therein must both your selues offende and be a stumblyng blocke for others In aunswrere herevnto howe sclenderly you excuse yore selues aÌ„d auoide blame howe daungerously you passe ouer other matters it had not ben greatly amisse to haue quietly left but that this place as well as others would haue something spoken of it The authoritie you affirme of a Prince in these thinges indifferent is to commaunde their good vse and forbyd the contrary Vpon which your resolution a man may reason with you thus The good vse of indifferent thinges is gods commaundemeÌ„t whiche a Prince must execute But this may be a good vse of these orders now taken as the contrary is not proued by you so consequently the magistrate may call vpon the execution of the same Touching the Minor this much we haue of your graunt that a tyme may be when these thinges in Christes Churche may haue their good vse But whether that tyme be nowe or nay there are preiudices against you of the like tyme heretofore of the wholle parliament of the Clergie of the most part of protestants papistes The aunsuuerer The aunswere to the obiection is better than you can take awaye for all your glorious wordes remembring the former protestation that wee neuer graunted these things to be indifferent in their vse then admitting they were neuer so idiffereÌ„t yet aedificatioÌ„ must be sought in them ChristiaÌ„ liberty must not be infringed for theÌ„ c. This is oure aunswere to the obyectioÌ„ But your fine reason maye not be omitted The good vse of indifferent things is gods coÌ„maÌ„demeÌ„t Which the Prince must execute but this may be a god vse of these orders now taken therfore the magistrat may call vpon the execution of them First you craue no lesse then two principalls to helpe your weake cause th one that these thiÌ„gs are indifferent the other that there may be a good vse of them Your Minor semith to bring a fallaci whith yt there maye be a good vse of things ergo there is a good vse And this is called a posse ad esse from that which may be to that which is But yow saye wee graunt your Minor that there may be a tyme whan these things in Christes church maye haue ther good vse If this had bene grauÌ„ted yow yet yow rune into a nother fallacye by abusing and stretching the graunt à dicto simpliciter ad secundum quid These orders may be vsed of some whose conscieÌ„ces are not entangled ergo of all contrarie to their iudgement and science or these orders may be vsed at some tyme and for a tyme ergo at all times and al wayes you are not ignorant that the circunstances of persones and times varie the case But yow saye there are preiudicis against vs of what of the lyke time before Kynge Eduardes tyme is not lyke for the gospel hath bene longar preached of the whole perliament yow know what the Papistes auÌ„swer to this of the learned and godly They wish they re abolishing with vs. of the moste part of ProtestaÌ„tes and Papistes we are ashamed to heare a Protestant alleadge such popish praeiudices prescription of time of councell of clergie of multitude of Protestantes and Papistes The examiner As for that power whiche you expounde God hath geuen to Princes whether it containe all their aucthoritie and iurisdiction as you rehearse it it shall not be narrowly scanned at this time Neither thankes be geuen to God doth the Prince of pleasure but for furthercommoditie of her subiectes require this subiection of yours which howe lawfully you
Pel Lib 1 reliquus ordo ecclesiasticus in administratione sacrificiorum candida veste processerint c. What enmitie I pray you is this against God yf I haue a more cleane coate yf the Bishop Priest and Deacon and the rest of the Ecclesiasticall order at the administration of sacrifice go in white apparell It appeareth Saint Hierome chargeth them as Pelagians who speake against white garmentes in the Churche Neither were these vestures in price only in the occidental Church but also in the orientall Churche Hom. 60. as Chrysostome sheweth plainely in a Sermon to the people of Antioche willing the Priestes to take diligent care to whom they did minister the Sacrament of Christes body and bloud An. do 400. saying Hoc vestra dignitas est c. This is your worship this is your safetie this is your crowne and not because ye go rounde about in the Church in a white and a shining garment So then in those fathers dayes men did not cauill against their white vestures in the Churche because they were fetched from the Heathens or Iewes The aunsuuerer Yow thinke yow haue wone your spures to proue your whit lynnen surples by your two placis of Ierom and Chrysostome which aree all yow can say for them And yetmake no thing in the worlde for allowing of them For Ierom askith what harme it were if they shold vse whit garments he doth not simply affirme that they did were them yow knowe the figure vsed in such putting of cases fictio Chrysostome saith hit is no part of theire worship to walke about with whith garnments he doth not commende the vse of such apparell But to examine tâ—e placis seueralye yow saye all the cleargy in Icomes tyme vsed such white apparel Yow say a great dele more theÌ„ yow are able to stand by For vow are neuer able to proue with all the lerning yow haue out of this place ayther that all the clergi vsed them or that the clergi vsed them onely in deuine setuis or that the cleâ—gie did vse them and not laye men also or that they were of whit lynnen or finally with out all coÌ„trouersie that they were white for the wordcaÌ„didus doth not â—pperlie signefie whit but lightefhiniÌ„g orlighte colored as may apeare owt of Plynny lib. 35. cap. 6. where after he hath compted Cerusca to be of coler candida he saith the best kynd of it is of Asia which is purple The poet Horace hath this verse Rubro vbi cocco tincta super lectos vestis canderet eburnos where clothiÌ„g dyed whith red scarlet shined vpon Iuery beds here it is aplyed to red Agayne who knowith not theses phrases candidus dies a fayer daye candidus sol the bright sonne c. And in the place alledged it is manifest that candida vestis doth signefi a clenely somwhat gor geous or costly apparell and that maye euident lye appere both by the wordes going before and coming after Which if yow wold haue added all men might haue sene how litil this place makith for Surplessis The wordes before are these Vnde adiungis gloriam vestium ornamentorum deo esse contrariam Quae sunt rogo inimicitiae c. wheropon yow saye next that the glory of the apparell ornaments is contrary to god I pray yow what cumytie is it against god yf I haue a more clenely cote yf the Bishop prest Deacon the rest of the Ecclesiasticall oder in â—e ministration of the Sacrifices shall come forth in a bright colored garmeÌ„t Cauete clericicaueté monachi viduae virgines periclitanmi nisi sordidas vos atque pannosas vulgus aspexerit Take hede yow clergie men take hedt yow moÌ„kes widowes virgins you are in daunger except the comon people see you in filthy ragged appatell Taceo de hominibus saeculi quibus aperte bellum indicitur inimicitiae contra deum si pretiosis atque nitentibus vtantur exuuiis I speke not of lay men to whome open warre is proclaimed emnitie against god yf they were costly gorgeus apparell bi these wordes it is out of doubt Ihetom spekith of gorgeous or clenely apparrell what coler soeuer it was not onely white apparrell comon to laye men nor proper to prests vsed abrod not onely in the Church raither of any matter then linnen for in his time linneÌ„ was vsed but of few aÌ„d of effeminat persons such as were curtiers as maie appere in diucrse placis in this first Epist ad HeliodoruÌ„ ad Nepotianum in epitaphio Neopotiani ad Gaudentium Erasmus as often hath notid that is was scarse thought met for a man to were linnen next his skinne much lese aboue his gowne iestith after his manner that that sholdnowe become ecclesiasticall that in old time was courtlike But let us here what Ierom saith in other placis to the same purpose in his epi. to Marcella of the sickenes of Blesilla he saith nos quia serica veste non vtimur monachi iudicamur quia ebrij non sumus nec cachinmo ora dissoluimus coÌ„tinentes vocamur tristes Si tunica non canduerit statim illud triuio impostor Graecus est wee because wee were not a silken garment are iudged to be monkes because wee are not drunke nor gape wide in laughter are called continent sad yf our cote be not light collered or whith straight waye wee here the common prouerb a greciaÌ„ aÌ„d deceiuer here againe it is plaine that this CaÌ„dor vestis is referred not so much to the coler as to the costlines Secondlie that hit was vsuuall apparrell thirdlie that it was not vsed of all the Clergy finally yf Candida vestes must nedes signefy a white surplese here what Ierom saith speknig purposelie of the apparrell of prests ad Neapolianum vestes pull as aeque deuitaâ—vt candidas fly blacke garments euen as as well as whit garments gallantnes slauery must alike be auoided for the one sauerith of dirtenes the other of vaine glorie But these garmentes were in price in the Oriental Church No doubt in great price when Chrysostome saith plainely that all there worhpp was to discharg there duty not that they shold go about in a white shining garmente But where you ad in the Church yow ad moretheÌ„ is in the text bewray your vniust dealiÌ„g in the cause yow had bene better to haue alledged the same place out of the 83. homily vpon Math. where these wordes are in the Church but what haue yow wone by this haue yow approued theÌ„ to be whithe silke Haue yow shewid that they were proper to the Church seruis And not coÌ„mon garments such as both for lightnes in those hort countris and also for estimacion as is declared before they vsed in those days to were That which Chrysostom notith and discomendith as vnmete yow alleg aÌ„d Command as mete And though both out of Ierom and ChrysostoÌ„ yow could proue all your desire
what preiudicie is that to ower cause The Examiner Here one thing must not be omitted that S. Ezec 44 Hierome in the same place where he speaketh of the Egiptians linnen clothes hath also these wordes Porro religio diuina alterum habitum habet in ministerio alterum in vsu vitaque communi The religion of god hath one habite in the ministration and another in common vse and life The aunsuuerer God forbid that your shold alledg the docters against the papistes so frowardlie as yow doe against vs yow wold then discredit our comman cause for that which makith altogether against yow yow leue out wrest to your porpose that which makith nothing for yow Sainct Ierom expounding the place of Ezechiel where god commaundeth the preists of the old lawe to put ou their lynnen garmeÌ„tes other attire when they enter into the holie place put them of whan they come out declarith that god will haue nothing obserued in his ceremonies that agreth with the superstition of the gentils then notith what spirituall doctrin may be gathered therby for our lerning His wordes are these First concerning the putting of of theire ministring garments Per quae discimus non quotidianis quibuslibet pro vsu vitae communis pollutis vestibus nos ingredi debere in sancta sanctorum sed munda conscientia mundis vestibus tenere Domini Sacramenta c. wherbie wee lerne that wee must not enter in to the holi of holies whith Dailie Euerie kind of defiled garments vsed in the comon life but with a cleane consciens cleane garments to kepe or hold the Lords Sacraments As for that which followith they shall not shaue their hed nor let their haere grow long but shall round or poulle ther headd it is plaineli shewed that wee must not haue our heds shorne like the priest worshippers of Isys and Serapis neither againe haue long heare that is the maner of riotous persones of a Barbarouse people of Soldiors But that the honest habit of priests may be shewed by thier face And after a few words at it were auÌ„swering a secret obiectioÌ„ because the Egyptians ptiests did were linnen garments also he saith vestibus linaeis vtuntur Egyptii Sacerdotes non solum intrinsecus sed extrinsecus porro religio diuina alterum habituÌ„ habet in ministerio alterum in vsu vitaque communi Feminalia recte assumuntur vt honestas decorqÌ„ seruetur ne scilicet ascendentes altaris gradus in ministerio discurrentes reuelent turpitudinem Rasa capita habet supersticio gentilis vinum autem quantum ad me pertinet non reor aliquem se abstinere gentilium The Aegyptian priests vvweare lynnen garmeÌ„ts not oneâ—e vvith in but also withoute but the religion of god hathe one habit in the ministerire and a nother in the vse and common liffe The briches arwel taken that honestie comlynes may be kept least wheÌ„ they go vp to the alter steps and rwne about their ministery they reuele their fil thynes the superstition of the gentills haue shauen heds But wine for my part I thinke none of the Gentils doth refuse Here Ierome doth affirme that god wold not haue the priests of the olde lawe to shaue thier heades because it was the marke of idolaters nor to were theer holie lynnen garments abrode because the Egyptian priests did so but he will haue them to wear breachis to abstaine forme winne which none of the Gentils obserue for religion Whether this place be well alleged against vs that makith altogether for vs let all men both lernid and vnlernid iudg Yf yow wold take pains to rede ouer the place againe yow shall see that hee spekith of the religion of the Iewis he priestes and not of the apparrell of ChristiaÌ„ ministers Wher also yow shal find that abrode your priests did weare comon apparrell contrarie to your former assertion The same Hierome lib. 42. cap. 53. in EsaiaÌ„ vppon these wordrs Non me inuocasti Iacob c. sayeth in the personne of God Quod autem arbitraris obtulisse te mihi victimas arietes immolasse scias cos à me non esse suspectos quia mihi idolis communes erant And where as thow thinckest thou hast offered to me oblations and sacrificed rammes knowe thowe that they were not receaued of me becaucause they were commune to Idols with me Thus Hierome in plaine wordes maketh for vs though some crie with open mouthe againste vs that we haue neither scriptures nor doctores The examiner As for Platinas Albe it is not here to be spoken of neyther do men take for lawes whatsoeuer Durandus wryteth though yet out of his wordes no such necessitie nede to be gathered as you would haue to folowe The aunsuuerer Platina his albe is heareto be spoken of because by the formar boke of kinge Edward whereto the act of parliameÌ„t referrith vs an albe is appoincted with a vestement for a cope for the administration of the Sacrament and in some placis the preist at this dayewerith an albe Durande though he be no lawe maker to vs yet he his agreat patron of yours in this cause who with Manipulus curatorum his felowes make this necessitie loke the placeit is to plaine The examiner Besides this it is not though reason sufficieÌ„t to detest the Surplesse or other apparel be cause they may serue also for some significatioÌ„ For the apparell of Christian men woulde be suche as it might speake or as it were preache some part of godlines to them selues and others 1. Pet. 3. So it seemeth S. Peter woulde haue women to order their attire So Tertullian saieth De pallio De cultu foem Ad fab Ipse habitus sonat The habite it selfe geueth a lesson So in another place Cur mores meos habitus non pronuntiat why doth not the apparel shew forth my maners So S. Hierome sayeth Tanta debet esse c. Such knowledge learning should be in the Priest of God that his going mouing and all thinges should by some significatioÌ„ speake He ought to conceiue the trueth in his minde and to sounde out the same in his habite and apparell that whatsoeuer he sepeaketh it might be doctrine to the people Lib. 2. paed cap. 10. mart Iulit To his purpose hath ClemeÌ„s Alexand. and Basill spoken but it shall not be nedefull nowe to rehearse their testimonies when as by these we may perceiue that vestures may haue their good significations and yet are we not bounde to beleue euery fonde meaning as suche ydle brained Durandes do bring or collect The aunsuuerer Wee do not detest the apparell so muche for the signification sake but for the supersticion if it plese yow that the apparell must sound and pronounce what can the apparrell of idolatrie sound of yow but that yow are of the sect whose liuerie yow wear These placis all make against yow As
mens heades The Aunsuuerer Yf wee had as large consciencis as yow haue gowne sleaues perchaunce wee nede not feare but for anie thing that yow saye wee haue greate cause to feare lest wee offend ād brīg our doctrine that wee haue taught into doubt and that wee shall teach into supicion The examiner This many men thynke very straunge in you that you stande in greater feare that men will beleue rather your apparell then your wordes your coate then your preachyng your owteward shewe then your inward minde often opened by speache and plainelie set before them to perceiue What do you iudge of gods people that they be so muche without sense vnderstanding Yow feare the thing your selues imagine and imagine euen what you list The Aunsuuerer Wee iudg gods people to be as by experiens wee find them and it is raither like they will beleue our doings then our sayings yf wee saye all markes of Idolatrie are to be abhorred manie seing vs vse them our selues will thinke thear is no great daunger in vsing them nor truth in our wordes what so euar wee saye of them yt is the best persuasion if the tonge the cote talke theache one thing Ar for offence gueing our protestation will not excuse vs no more then if a man wold willfullie dig a pitt breake a bridg or lay a log in the waye then cry out saye O. take hede you fall not wee must stopp holles not make them take awaye stombling blockes not laye them then bid men bewar of them The examiner Here next may be seene your seuere and sharpe sentence vpon all you brethren and felowe ministers when yow in your selues pronounce but hell and dampnation to all them which vppon sincere ▪ loue towarde the flocke of Christ 1. Cor. 16. hauing a wide doore opened vnto them by gods singuler grace to spreade abrode the knowledge of Christ haue not such regarde in whar apparell they shoulde enter and feede as to be found faithful dispensours of the misteries of God In which paynefull seruice yf they go forwarde to the ende shall heare not that terrible voyce vpon the naughtie seruaunt which you vtter but the confortable saying to the good seruaunt well god seruaunt c. The aunsuuerer Nay here may be sene your false and vncharitable interpretation to say that we threaten to others that wee fear to our selues Of other we saye once againe they stande or fall to their Lorde who by his fyre shall bourne all the haye strawe and woode and saue all them that holde fast vpon the onelye foundacion Iesus Christ The examiner In the iudgement of all wise men you had done right well Luk 19. yf you had either stayed your penne in this place or spoken more plainly for the discharge of some when as you notifie to the world that the earnest solicitours of these matters were blouddy persecutours and still beare backe in the religion of Christ Surely the sagest and sobrest in this common wealth Church conceiue a better opinion of them that first stablyshed these thinges by lawe and of them also which of duetie nowe cal vpon the execution of the same as they may rightlie of them by whom chiefelie all Romishe religion with superstition and errour was through the spirite of God bannished this Relame Well howesoeuer it hath pleased you for spite against some one to bring a great number of very godly in obloqui and suspition yf the thinges required be indifferent in them selues and not so horrible daungerous for this Churche at these dayes as the prudent and chare ouerseers iudge euen as it were in the sight of Christ to whom they must render an accompt for his deare flocke what matter is it who they be that call vpon you to accomplishe your duetie Vnlesse you thinke that no man ought to make generall lawes in the like cases but let euery Curate be supreme gouernour in his owne parishe which loose imagination what incōuenience it will drawe with it you may well consider Howe innocent handes they haue from the bloud of all Gods Saintes who vnder a most godly vertuous and pure regiment deale with you all maner of wayes that you slippe not from your loyall obedience yea though they shoulde vse towarde some of you charitable seueritie terrible lenitie auengement medicinall as S. Augustine setteth out the true ecclesiasticall discipline not only the wise within this Realme vnderstande but the enemies also without contra li Petil. li. 3. cap. 4. confesse The Aunsuuerer All wyse men be not of one iudgement but they may easelie see if they wil that to be trew which wee haue sayde that the earnest soliciters in these matters seke not the aduancement of gods glorie but the defacing of the Gospell Yow allwayes burthen vs wythe enuye as though we ment all them that by anie meanes medle with the matter to be blodie persecuters nay all godlie men wish and wee as gods Ministers may speake that those prudent and chairie ouerseers which tythe mint and anice wolde raither execute mercie and Iudgment mercie in prouiding moe then ten thowsand Preachers not hindering those few that are Iudgment in disserning betwene halfe Papistes Hietlinges and faithfull and learned preachers Iudgment in restoringe discipline to the Churche withoute the which it is no perfecte Church therbie to punishe the euill and cherish the good not to be so straight in exhortinge trifles as though nothinge wanted to the perfection of the Church but the apparell of ministers The examiner But because your enemies as you surmize put you in minde of your duetiful subiection you will not be cowards you say yeelding your weapons to your aduersaries handes As if by wearing this apparell the sword of Gods worde were wrested out of your handeling 1. Cor. 10 where as you knowe well enough in these orders you may manfully caste downe strong holdes ouerthrowe imaginations and euery high thing that exalteth him selfe against the knowledge of God and bring into captiuitie all vnderstanding to the obedience of Christ yea and take vengeaunce of all disobedience as S. Paule describeth at large the faithful preachers weapons and fight The aunsuuerer We count Hipocrites and papistes to be our Enimies not such as you surmize to who me we sholde yeld the power of gods worde though wee kepte the bookes yf wee did that which wee haue taught to be contrarie The examiner Nay God graunt this vndiscrete dealing of yours be not a voluntarie throwing awaye of your weapons in dede marueillous daungerous also to Christes people committed to your charge whyles you open thus a gappe for hirelynges to crepe in and defende not your flockes from the great peryls of heynous errours and vngodlynesse of lyfe because some hauyng interest aswell as you in your sheepe shewe vnto you an orderly poy at or two The examiner This is vntimelie iestinge to knowe we are violentlie thruste out and saye wee willinglie leaue our