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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41287	A speech of the Honourable Nathanael Fiennes, second son to the right honourable the Lord Say, in answere to the third speech of the Lord George Digby concerning bishops and the city of Londons petition : both which were made the 9th of Feb. 1640 in the honourable House of Commons : in which is plainely cleared the severall objections that are made against the Londoners petition and also the great and transcendent evills of episcopal government, are demonstrated and plainly laid open.	Fiennes, Nathaniel, 1607 or 8-1669.	1641 (1641)	Wing F880; ESTC R226088	15,328	32

non-payment of a groat And now Sir we may imagine what effects are lik to follow upon such premises the great and dreadfull censure of excommunication is thereby made contemptible and were it not for the civill restrains and penalties that follow upon it no man would purchase an absolution though he might have it for a half penny And I have heard of some that have thanked the Ordinaries for abating or remitting the fees of the Courts but I never heard of any that thanked them for reclayming their soules to repentance by their excommunications Sir for absolution it is relative to excommunication and so labours of the same diseases onely one thing I shall particularly note concerning absolution Sir it is called commutation of penance but indeed it is a destruction of the ordinance making it void and of none effect and surely God never set his Ministers to sell indulgences in his Church The oath that is to precede absolution de parendo juri Ecclesiae et stando c. hath already been sufficiently spoken unto in the debate about the Canons and therefore there will bee no neede of speaking more to that Now Sir I am come to my last head wherein I shall bee very briefe and that is concerning the evills that arise out of the benefices and dignities of the Clergy the common cause being from the inequalitie of the distribution of them much resembling a disease very ordinary at this time amongst children which they call the rickets wherein the nourishment goeth all to the upper parts which are over great and monstrous and the lower parts pine away and so it is in the Clergy some are so poore that they cannot attend their ministerie but are faine to keepe Schooles nay Ale-houses some of them and some others are so stately they will not attend their ministery and so betweene them the flocke starves but our evills have more especially proceeded from the excessive worldly wealth and dignities of one part of the Clergy I meane such as either are in possession or in hopes of Bishoprickes for these great places of profit and honour first have beene the baites of ambition and then they became the apples of contention and last of all the seeds of superstition the one being a step and degree unto the other and all of them leading in the end to the corruption that I may not say subversion of our Religion Sir they are first the baits of ambition and I know not by what secret cause but experience sheweth us that when Clergy men have once tasted the sweete of wordly wealth and honours they are more eager and ambitious after them then any other sort of men hereupon other godly Ministers that live more according to the simplicity of the Gospel and the example of Christ and his Apostles cannot but beare witnesse against their worldly pompe and dignities and so the fires of contention breaketh forth And truely Sir the state of the Clergy is very like to fire which whil'st it keepes in the chimney it is of excellent use to warme those that approach unto it but if it once breake out into the house and get upon the house top it sets all on fire So whilest the Clergy keepe themselves within the pulpit they are of great use to stir up the zeale and devotion of Christians but if they once flye out into the house if they begin to meddle with Civill places and jurisdictions and especially if they once get up to the Counsell-table it is seldome seene but that length they set all on fire and what is it that maketh the fire to breake out of the chimney but too much fuell if there be but a moderate proportion of fuel the fire keepes it selfe within it's bounds but if you heape fagot upon fagot a whole cart-load together then it breaketh out so Sir if there bee a competent maintenance for the ministerie they wil keepe themselves within their bounds but if living bee heaped upon living and temporalities added to spiritualities the flame will soone breake out and set the house on fire Sir I doe not envy the wealth or greatnes of the Clergy but I am very confident if those were lesse they would be better and doe more service to Christ and his Church and I am very cleare in mine owne heart that the livings of the Clergie being more equally distributed the service of God would bee so farre from receiving any prejudice that it would bee much advanced and withall a good proportion of revenue might return againe unto the Crowne from whence it was first derived Sir Bishopricks Deanaries and Chapiters are like to great wasters in a wood they make no proofe themselves they cumber the ground whereon they stand and with their great armes and boughes stretched forth on every side partly by their shade and partly by their sowre droppings they hinder all the young wood under them from growing and thriving To speake plaine English these Bishops Deanes and Chapiters doe little good themselves by preaching or otherwise and if they were felled a great deale of good timber might be cut out of them for the uses of the Church and Kingdome at this time A fresh stoole of three or foure able Ministers might spring up in their stead to very good purpose in those great townes which are ordinarily the seates of those Episcopal and Collegiate Churches and the private congregations of divers parochiall Churches might thrive and grow better which now have the Sun of Gods word I meane the cleare and spirituall preaching thereof kept from them and live in the dangerous shade of ignorance by reason that all the meanes is taken from them and appropriated unto Bishops or to Deanries Chapters and other such like Collegiate Churches Besides such as doe begin to grow and start up through the voluntary pains of some amongst them or by such preaching as they themselves have procured by their voluntary contributions should not still bee dropped on as they are from the armes and appendances of those great wasters and kept downe continually by their bitter persecutions That which remaines now is to shew how these great revenues and dignities become the seeds of superstition and that is thus The Clergy in the maintenance of their greatnesse which they are neither willing to forgoe nor yet well able to maintaine upon the principles of the reformed Religion finding that the popish principles whereon the Bishop of Rome built his greatnesse to suite well unto their ends that maketh them to side with that party and that must needs bring in superstition and as ambition allureth on the one side so the principles they goe by draw them on farther and farther and happily at length farther then they themselvs at first intended Whether a reconciliation with Rome were imagined or no by some I leave it to every one to judge within himselfe but sure I am if an accommodation could have been made in some fashion or other with the Church of Rome the Clergy might againe be capable of forraine preferments and Cardinalls capps and this is no small temptation Now Sir I am at an end onely I shall draw out three conclusions which I conceive may clearely be collected out of what I have sayd First that civill jurisdiction in the persons of Clergy men together with their great revenues and high places of dignity is one great cause of the evills which wee suffer in matter of religion Secondly that the sole and arbitrary power of Bishops in the ordaining and depriving of Ministers and in excommunication and absolution is another great cause of the evills we suffer in matter of Religion Thirdly the strict urging of Subscription and Conformity to the Ceremonies and Canons of the Church is another great cause of Evill which we suffer in matter of Religion And now my humble motion is that we should take a piece only of this subject into our consideration but the whole matter and that not only that part of the Ministers remonstrance which hath been read should be referred unto the Committee which you are about to name but Londons petition also and all other petitions of the like nature so soone as they shall be reade in the house and that the Committee may collect out of them all such heads as are fit for the consideration of this house and surely that is fit to be considered that happily will not be thought fit to be altered consideration is one thing and alteration another where there is a mixture of bad and good together the whole must be consired that wee may know how to sever the good from the bad and so retaine the one and reject the other which is all that I desire And if any thing have fallen from me more inconsiderate as in so long a discourse many things may have done I humbly crave the pardon of the house protesting that I have spoken nothing but with a mind which is ready to sacrifice the body it dwelleth in to the peace and safety of his Majesties Kingdomes and the safety and honour of his Majestie in the Government of them FINIS