that same bread his bodie that same cup his blood where that same bread is called the communion of his body that same cup the communion of his blood doeth altogether shewe that bothe these sayinges are figuratiue or at least wise one of them too witte eyther that of Paule or that of Christ Question To wit that of Paule is to bee expounded out of the proper saying of Christ Answeare Therefore at the length thou arte brought too confesse that whosoeuer doeth mainteine and defende figures in the controuersie of the Sacraments doe not ouerthrowe the Testament of the Sonne of GOD. But to the matter It is easie too shewe out of our seuenth Argument and out of that that went next before that both these were figuratiue whether thou doe interprete that out of this or this out of that as for example both these Propositions This cup for this Wine is my blood and this wine is the communion of my bloode nowe the like is too bee thought of breade it is diuers from this this wine is the licour of the vine which notwithstanding thou must needes say is most proper and therefore so stoutly to bee maintened because as we haue saide ouerthrowing or taking away the substaunce of the signe the foundation of the analogy or proportion shoulde also bee taken away and ouerthrowen Question I would answeare that both Christ and Paule passed this ouer as a thing sufficiently knowen For to what purpose shoulde he haue taught his Disciples that that bread which he held in his handes was breade and that wine But vndoubtedly it behooued him to teach them that which otherwise they woulde neuer haue beleeued too witte that those thinges also which hee helde in his handes and gaue them in vnder or with Bread and Wyne was his body and his blood Answeare Therefore thou must needes determine that the figure Synecdoche is in these woordes This breade and this cuppe and therefore whilest thou studiest to auoyde figures thou fallest into a figure But we will way this Synecdoche in his place to wit when we shal come too the confutation But thou in the meane time shalt not so escape For with what manner and with how great coniunction soeuer thou shalte couple those two vnlike thinges in themselues indeede togeather suche as are the bread and the body wine and the blood yet notwithstanding thou shalte neuer bring to passe that the one may properly be sayd to be the other No neyther in the coniunction can one be sayde to be the other but eyther of them must bee made a certayne thirde thing Therefore this at the least must bee a proper proposition in or vnder or with this bread and wine is my body blood It remayneth therefore that thou confesse that both this saying of Christe and that of Paule whether thou interprete this out of that or that out of this be figuratiue 230. Question Howe therefore doest thou thinke this place of Paule shoulde bee expounded Answeare First of all they are to be confuted who take the Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth common for distribution which the matter it selfe cryeth out too be most absurd forasmuch as bread and wine are substances but distribution is an action and Paule himselfe expounding that vseth a woorde that signifieth to participat and the scope it selfe of the Apostle requireth that it declare a communion and not a distribution Moreouer it is woonder that they who allowe no trope in the matter of the Sacramēt that they can in this place interpret the cōmunicating of the body for the bodie communicated or distributed that is cā confound the action with the effect For neither in good sooth doe they this well because they referre this distribution to the word of breaking as though Paule had written the bread which we distribute is the body cōmunicated For the word of breking ought to be taken properly in this action as wee haue shewed before and it appeareth by the word he gaue which is added to the woorde hee brake in the narration of the Euangelist Question What therefore thinkest thou 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be called Answeare Commmunion and felowship which is the true signification of his word it differeth somwhat frō 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Chrysost noteth although Paule vseth the verbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 indifferently one for the other Such as the Communion is therefore that is to say the naturall societie of all men in the common nature of flesh blood as between themselues with Christ himselfe such is the communion by the goodnesse of God betwixt al the faithful Christ into whom they are engraffed and incorporated Question But by what maner of speach may that breade bee said to be that same felowship and communion Answeare With the Logitians it is called a causall affirmation whereby the proper effect is attributed to the proper cause whether it bee materiall or efficient which manner or fashion is to be referred to the fourth maner of affirming by it selfe as they speake in the schooles Now a figuratiue speach is when the effect is put for the cause or else forsooth for the very efficient cause as for example when Christ is called the resurrection the life for the rayser and giuer of life or the cause of resurrection life or for the materiall cause as when Paule sayeth You are my glory or reioycing the is to say the matter of my glory or reioycing or for the instrumental which also is it self efficient 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say being as it were an vnder seruer as when the Gospel is said to be the power of God to saluation that is to say the instrument that God vseth effectually too saue vs. So also in this place that same Breade and that same wine are sayde to be that communion that is to say the instrumentes whereby that same consociation and felowship of ours is wrought and ratified in vs. Now this same instrument is sacramentall or rather symbolicall and not the verye efficient cause which is the holy Ghost Therefore as that same figuratiue proposition of Christe This bread is my body is expoūded by this This bread is sacramental my bodie so also this saying of Paul This bread is the communication of my bodie is to be expounded by this proper This bread is the Sacramental instrument of our consociation and felowship with the bodie of Christ For there the figure is onely in the Copulatiue that knitteth the matter together to wit a Sacramental Metonymie or translation but heere also in the attribute is a figure which they call Metalepsis too witte putting the effecte for the cause 231. Question But canst thou besides bring forth any other argumentes Answeare Yea that can I. And first of all that same from the essentiall and constituting fourme of all the Sacramentes which is in summ that they may consist of the
made the Sacrament of the blood of Christ and breade the Sacrament of his bodie and wine also of his blood 38. Question But thou a little before diddest cal these partes Answeare I did so and not without cause For these twoo which are causes by themselues are also essentiall partes of the thinges as the Logicians doe very well teach 39. Question Nowe what are the endes of these Sacramentes Answeare Some chiefe endes to wit that Christ as I haue said with all his gifts may more more be sealed in vs othersome not so special as that by this badge also we shoulde bee distinguished from others that make not profession of the Christian faith should bee knit together more and more amongst our selues in mutuall loue 40. Question And is there no more Answeare Yes this also is to be added That the Sacraments are also remēbraunces of thinges past as in the ceremonies of baptisme the powring out of water doth set before our eyes as present the shedding forth of Christes blood the putting into water the cōming out his death burial resurrection also the breaking of bread in the Supper doth after a sort represēt vnto vs Christ crucified for vs. 41. Question These thinges being expounded I woulde gladly learne of thee what the knitting together of the signes the thinges signified is For thou art not ignorant that this controuersie is specially handled nowadaies Whether the body and blood of the Lord be really present yea or no that is in the same place where that bread and that wine is or whether the signes remain as some think or be abolished the accidēts onely remaining as they teache which consent with the Pope Answeare This controuersy is growen so whot and come so farre that for the deciding thereof we neede rather conscience then knowledge but the Lorde alone either by some wonderfull iudgement or some notable example of his mercie will decide it notwithstanding I will endeuour too make it playne when I shall come too speake of the Lordes Supper Now that I may answeare to that which is demanded I say that forasmuche as the thinges signified both in the simple woorde and in the Sacramentes be partly things not subsisting or standing by themselues as the forgiuenesse of sinnes the gift of sanctification the encrease of faith incorporation into Christ and suche like that the questiō of the real presence of the things signified must necessarily bee restrayned to some real beyng Now as I suppose no other can bee put but Christe himselfe And when they with whom wee agree not concerning this matter doe not themselues as I suppose think that Christ should bee deuided as those that complaine notwithstanding vndeseruedly that the same is done of vs because that we denie the reall presence of Christes bodie Doest thou thinke that the state of this question is so too bee taken Whether Christe GOD and man bee present in those places themselues where the Sacramentes are ministred Question So I haue read in some of theyr wrytinges who notwithstanding affirme this not generally of all Sacramentes but onely of the Lordes Supper Answeare I woulde not doubte too affirme the same both of the supper of the Lord and of Baptisme and also after a certayne manner of those Sacramentes which were before the comming of Christ into the Earth neither woulde I think my selfe a Christian if I should denie this 42. Question I am glad that we agree amongest our selues Answere God graunt that at length we may agree Therfore heare I pray thee It cannot be denied but that Christ according too his Godhead is euery where This likewise is without all controuersie that forasmuch as mans nature is so taken of the Woorde that GOD and Man are one reall beeyng it must needes followe if thou consider Christe as some one and singular thing that whole Christ is also euery where present and yet not as in the Sacramentes in which vndoubtedly there must be appoynted some peculiar and special manner of presence as I may so speak that they may be distinguished from other common thinges in which also hee is present The other thing that I would haue wel weighed of thee is this that which is spoken of the whole is not yet spoken of the singular parts being amōgst themselues of a diuerse kinde As for example All the whole that we call man we define to be partaker of reasō which yet thou wilte not say of no essentiall parte of man considered in it selfe And yet there is somewhat in this definition too witte reason which is attributed to that other parte of man euen to the soule Doest thou not see then that whole Christ that is Christ considered as a certaine whole and absolute thing is another thing then all belonging to Christ that is Christ whō thou shalt way particularly by his partes For in this case let it be lawful for me to atttribute also the name of a part to the Godhead 43. Question I see it very well but is there any more Answeare Yea I woulde haue this farther to be marked of thee that certain thinges doo so fitly serue for the establishing of some singuler thing that that which by no meanes can agree by it selfe to some one may yet be attributed vntoo it as it cleaueth is conioyned with another the which thing is so farre foorth true that it may also be sayde of those which yet but accidentally onely and for a time are ioyned together as for example when a King is crowned and is honored in his robes the crowne and his robes are also reuerenced but yet in respect of another thing to witte of his kingly dignitie wherof they are ornamentes not in respect of them selues For heereby it plainely appeareth that the honour and reuerence is not referred too those things because when the king hath put them off no man can endure to reuerēce them vnlesse he bee out of his wits but they are reuerenced for another to wit for the Kinges sake of whom they are worne Neither euer doth the crown or robes grow vp into one real being with the king Much more therefore shall some thing be said in respect of another which is ioyned personally with another which yet can by no meanes in respect of it selfe be attributed vnto it So there is attributed to the worde taking mans nature that which is peculiar to mans nature as when it is sayd that God suffered as also to maas nature Actes 20. 28. that which is peculiar to the woorde taking vpon it mans nature as when in mās nature at what time he talked with Nichodemus in the earth he sayd that Iohn 3. 13. he was in heauen Question These thinges thou hast handled before But thou diddest adde that this was spoken of certaine distinct woordes to witte of God and man But of the abstract to witte of the Godhead and manhoode not so Answeare Vnlesse this be so the confusion of the naturall
am altogether persuaded so for the self same Christ yea the same whole Christ both in his audible worde and also in his visible wordes that is to say in the Sacraments is set foorth to the selfe same ende 68. Question I had almost quite forgotten that which I woulde gladly haue asked of thee to wyt howe it is that Sainct Augustine writeth as thou hast cyted that the Sacramentes can worke no suche astonishment as miraculous thinges doe if that same mystery of the vniting of Christ and his Church together be so wonderfull Answeare I haue answered vnto that alreadie that it is one thing to aske of the Sacramentes themselues another thing of those thinges which God doth worke by the vse of them Augustine therefore doeth very well forbyd whether we respect the nature of the Sacramentes or the Sacramentes them selues that they should bee numbred amongest miracles because it is not straunge neyther also against the order of naturall thinges that some thing for the analogie and proportion and also by the couenaunt of men shoulde bee vsed for the signifying of some thing altogether differing from the nature thereof For I beseeche thee what miracle is it that the betrothing of maryage to come shoulde be signified by a Ryng and putting into possession of houses should not onely be signified by the deliuering of a Keye but also confirmed There is the lyke reason altogether to bee had of the Sacramentes although not particularly yet generally albeit those thinges which God worketh in vs if wee rightly vse the Sacramences doe exceede the vnderstandyng euen of the very Angels them selues 69. Question But that which thou hast spoken of our Sacramentes doest thou also thinke of those same olde Sacraments Answeare I say both twayne in those thinges which are as I may say of the substāce of the Sacrament it selfe doe altogether agree but they differ in certaine circumstances 70. Question Shewe me therefore how they doe agree Answeare First of all they agree in the efficient cause For Christ our onely lawgiuer appoynted both these and them further they agree in the inwarde thing it selfe For Christe was that same tree of lyfe in Paradise that same Lambe slayne from the beginnyng of the worlde that same Paschall of the Fathers takyng away the sinnes of the worlde that same spirituall Rocke that same meate and drynke of the Fathers which thyng also is to be thought of those same types and figures and to bee short of all the olde Sacraments For very ryghtly and truelye sayeth Augustine in the six and twentie Treatise vppon Iohn that the Sacraments of the Fathers in respect of the signes were diuers from oures but concernyng the signification they were alyke They agree also in the worde concernyng the substaunce albeit the voyces be not the same For there is signified in the worde of institution that Christ and his gifts are offered vnto vs in either to the Fathers as to come but to vs which come already moreouer in both two there is found the selfe same instrument of applying him and the same Fayth in diuerse signes as the same Augustine saith in his 45. treatise vpon Iohn Also the selfe same end and effect is in both of them For Circumcision was both the signe and the seale of righteousnes by faith Rom. 4. 11. And the Fathers were circumcised in Christe with the circumcision of the heart made without handes Col. 2. 7. 71. Question But in what thinges differ they Answere Firste they differ in the signes by which I vnderstande the Sacramentall rytes them selues which we haue more spiritual fewer lesse laborsome further in the playnesse of the word which in ours is much more clearer whervpō also groweth another difference in the very measure of the efficacy and operation it selfe For the more playne and manifest the woorde is the more ought wee to be moued and therfore the more effectual ought our faith to be Wherto also belong the woordes of the selfsame Augustine that our Sacrament are fewer easier more significant and more full of Maiestie to which also that may bee added that these differ in this because they were instituted onely vntill the comming of Christe but ours shall take no end but with the worlde 72. Question If it bee so as thou sayest it appeareth vnto me that the state of the Fathers was mightier in twoo greate thinges then ours First because they had more then because they had more significant helpes of faith then wee Answeare But I pray thee whethers weakenesse of the bodie wouldest thou iudge to be greater his that hath need of two staies to vphold his going or his which leaning vpon one staffe doth easily goe anie whither Question Surely I woulde thinke him twofolde weaker then the other Answeare Euen so perswade thy selfe of the estate and condition of those fathers For the multitude of Sacraments sheweth not that theyr condition was the better but contrariwise that it was worse For neither should our faith if it were strong ynough of it selfe neede the Sacramentes 73. Question But certainly it seemeth that there was in those Sacramentes a more playne Analogie or proportion of the signes with the thinges signified For in very deede the flesh and blood of those slayne sacrifices did more playnely represent the fleshe and blood of Christe crucified then bread and wine and Manna falling downe from heauen did after a sorte more liuely set before our eies the incarnation of the word also the water flowing out of the opened rocke the blood of Christe flowing out of his wounded side then the breaking of bread the powring out of wine into the cup. Answeare In good sooth those not yet done but to be done ought to bee represented too the fathers by a more grosse proportion then vnto vs bicause that it is farre harder to beleeue thinges to come then already done and witnessed by a sure and playne historie Therefore as thou hast sayde those signes did signifie the thing to come more grossely palpably But in this thou art specially deceiued that thou thinkest the more grosse the Analogie or proportion is that the more significant it is Question Why so Answeare Because the thinges signified by the Sacramentes are heauenly which fleshe and bloode teache not but that same onely Maister of trueth the holie Ghost wherevppon all Beleeuers are sayde by Esay and by Christ himselfe Esay 5. 14. Iohn 6. 4 5. to be taught of GOD. Therefore the efficacie of the Analogie or proportion dependeth vppon the woorde whereby is sette foorth both what it is and whereto it tendeth Question Wilt thou bee so good as to sette downe some similitude whereby I may more fully vnderstand what this matter meaneth Answeare Verily I am very well content that also the mouthes of the Sophisters may be shut vp If thou beyng altogether ignorant of these mysteries shouldest see some circumcised what wouldest thou thinke of it Question Surely I would thinke the Parents to
wherein it is ministred to any as neyther is the fruite of the simple woorde the seed lying so long hid in the mindes of the hearers till that by the vertue of fayth wrought sometimes later and sometimes flower shewing it selfe it fructifieth 112. Question Baptisme therefore doeth not abolish onely sinnes past Answeare Yea rather the fruite of baptisme is spreade foorth through out the whole life of beleeuers For that same grosse errour was the cause that many deferred baptisme vntill death which is a great wonder that it was not more vehemently handled of learned bishops 113. Question Doest thou not thinke that originall sinne is taken away by baptisme Answeare Surely I thinke that it is taken away concerning the guiltinesse so that Fayth be present But the vice it selfe although it dye by litle and litle in the beleeuers yet notwithstandyng in deede remayneth and it must needes be sinne and be so called because whatsoeuer resisteth the wil and spirite of God must of necessitie be vitious 114. Question But is this same Sacrament of baptisme an instrument altogether and absolutely necessary to obtaine saluation in Christ Answeare No not so Question And yet not onely the late writers but also many auncient fathers haue thought it so farre foorth at the least necessary that they haue esteemed those destituted of the light of the life of heauen which were not lightned with that same outwarde baptisme of the Church Answeare Concerning this opinion from whēce flowed that same shameful errour of the Clinicks and Baptisme of Midwiues we shall see afterwardes Nowe I say that the Sacrament of Baptisme is thus farre necessary that hee that neglecteth it doeth also depryue him selfe as muche as is in him of the benefite of Christ the which sinne notwithstanding as all others may bee taken away by true repentance but that he can not seeme to be a contemner of Baptisme who through no negligence of his much lesse fault doeth not obteyne Baptisme in that order which is instituted in the Church 115. Question But doest thou think that the baptisme administred by Iohn and afterwardes of the Apostles by the commaundement of Christ was one and the same Answeare I would wilingly that this question were omitted as at this day vnprofitable Notwithstandyng because it maketh for the clearer interpretation of certayne places of the holy scripture and from thence the Anabaptists seeke somewhat wherevnder to shroude their pestilent opiniō I refuse not also somewhat to entreate of this thing when we shall come to the confutations of the cōtrary opinions In the meane tyme I say that in very deede the Baptisme first ministred of Iohn and afterwarde by the commaundement of Christ was one and the same albeit it seemeth to bee so muche more plentifully perfourmed in that Apostolicall Baptisme then in that of Iohns as the doctrine is more plaine of the Apostles then the doctrine of Iohn and yet in very deede the same 116. Question Nowe I would haue certaine questions pertayning vnto this matter distinctly set foorth vnto me and first whome thou thinkest fit to be baptized Fot there are who thinke that all are to be baptized without differēce so they resist it not Answeare This foule errour flowed out of two fountaynes For they thought that the beginnyng of our saluation was from Baptisme and further that Baptisme saued vs euen by the woorke wrought as they speake 117. Question Others thinke that those onely are to bee baptized that are of yeares of discretion and are indeede suche as make confession of a true Fayth by the example of the Eunuch Actes 8. 37. Answeare The errour of these men sprange from thence that they thought Baptisme to be ministred in vayne vnlesse Fayth presently went before Baptisme Question What hast thou not sayde before that the thinges signified in the Sacramentes are layde holde vppon by the onely hande of Fayth Answeare So it is But that Fayth may follow the Sacrament yea though it were ministred many yeares before is no more absurde then if I shoulde say that which wee thinke also we proue dayly to wyt that it oftentymes commeth to passe that the thinges which we haue contemned when they were spoken vnto vs that beeyng marked they beginne to profite vs yea many yeares after and sometymes in the very last breath of our lyfe 118. Question Whome then thinkest thou meete to be baptized Answeare All they who can rightly shewe the conueyances of the couenaunt for the sealyng whereof Baptisme is instituted 119. Question But who doe rightly shewe them Answeare They who if they bee growen in yeares testifie theyr consent Question Wylt thou not then admyt any of yeares of discretion vnles they playnely professe a right Fayth Answeare None in deede For what els should I probably beleeue that I can seale in them 120. Question To what end then wilt thou admyt children Answeare Neyther will I admyt all infantes for neither will I receiue the children of the Turkes nor of the Iewes Question Why so Answeare Because they are not comprehended in the tables of the couenant Question But they may be instructed in Christianitie Answeare Why let them bee instructed or become Catechistes and then at length let them be baptized 121. Question I coulde easily graunt this vnto thee concerning the Turks children and the children of all those which were neuer comprehended in the couenaunt but wylt thou recken the Iewes with these Answeare Yea but after an vnlike maner For they indeede were neuer comprehended in the couenaunt but nowe the people of the Iewes retectyng the Mediatour are fallen from the couenaunt the Gentiles beeyng engraffed in their place 122. Question But is it sufficient as thou thinkest to be borne of the faithful that none bee reiected and put off from Baptisme Answeare So I thinke For the wordes of the couenaunt are plaine I wil be thy God Gen. 17. 7. and the God of thy seede Nowe by the name of seede the Apostle teacheth that all the Gentiles are conteyned followyng the fayth of Abraham Gal. 3. 8. And the same Apostle also playnely sayeth that those children are holy which are borne either of the parentes being a beleeuer by which sanctification 1. Cor. 7. 14. no other thing can bee vnderstoode then that same comprehension in the couenaunt whereby those that are holy are discerned from those that are prophane 123. Question But the example of Esau doth declare and also daily experience doeth confirme it that many begotten also euen of those that bee most holy doe nothing at all belong vnto the couenaunt Answeare Many also of those that are growen in yeares professing Fayth with theyr mouths are hypocrites But those same particular iudgementes are to bee left vnto God But that we should generally hope wel of all those which are borne of the faithful both the indefinite forme of the couenaunt doeth commaunde vs and loue doeth warne vs. 124. Question But without Fayth it is impossible to please God
do offer their children to the Priestes to be baptized of them Answeare No not so Question And yet thou sayest that that is a true baptisme Answeare And yet doth not that followe heere of For although that be auaileable that is geuen yet notwithstanding it followeth not that he is without sinne that required it For seing that many things are impure in the Papisticall rytes of Baptisme hee is not deuoyde of sinne which geueth occasion of the vse of thē that I say nothing that so by this means they are nourished in theyr bastardely calling whom those that shoulde chiefly take charge thereof ought by Christes example too driue out of the house of God Question What thinkest thou thē to be done of those fathers who imbracing true religion dwell amongest the Papistes Answeare I aduise thē that they spare no cost and leaue no way vnsought that they may prouide to haue their children baptized purely and that rather they defer their baptisme then become guiltie of those corruptions 146. Question But what if in the meane tyme the childe dye Answeare Surely the chylde it selfe shall not beare the blame and we haue sayd often tymes alreadie that it is not the want of baptisme but the contempt of it in it selfe that maketh a man vnwoorthie of the benefite of the couenant Question But the Lorde witnesseth that it shall come to passe that whosoeuer is not circumcized shal be cut off Genes 17. 14. Answeare If thou vnderstande this of the shutting out aswell from holy exercises of religion as from ciuill fellowshyp because it is added from amongest his people this shal be the manacing that the vncircumcized were neyther admitted to the exercises of religion nor to ciuill offices But if thou take this of the shutting out from the very couenaunt of euerlasting saluation this that is added for hee hath ouerthrowen my couenaunt sheweth that it must bee vnderstood of those onely which willingly and wittingly or els through negligence shall haue dispised Circumcision Yea rather it is certayne that they who lyued so long vncircumcized in the Wildernesse Iosuah 5. 4 yet for all that went to the holy congregations and were accompted Citizens of the commō wealth of the Iewes to wyt because that fell out not through contempte of Circumcision but because it could not bee commodiously ministred in the Wildernesse For it is not probable that Moyses and Aaron woulde otherwyse haue neglected it 147. Question But thinkest thou that there is no consideration to be had of the age of those that are to be baptized Answeare For as much as the profession of faith is required of those that are of the yeres of discretion the more diligent that they shal be in knowing the chiefe and principall pointes of Christian religion the better they shal prouide for them selues But the sooner that godly parentes shal offer their children to bee baptized the better they shall doe least if it might be they shoulde bee depriued of this benefite 148. Question But yet the Male children of the Israelites were not circumcized before the eight day Gen. 17. 12. Answeare Forsooth because there was another lawe that letted pronouncing those to bee vncleane till the seuenth day that had touched a woman in childe bedde Leuit. 12. 2. 15. 19. 149. Question But it is euident that many put off Baptisme long so that euen Gregory Nazianzen the sonne of a Bishop him selfe came not to bee baptized vntill he was euen nowe fully growen and come to rype yeeres Answeare This also manifesteth as many other thinges doe the negligence of many Bishops of vs not in any case to be followed Moreouer Nazianzen himselfe doeth sharpely reprooue euen this same putting off of Baptisme in his oration vpon holy Baptisme with whome notwithstanding I doe not consent in this as also I doe not in certayne other poyntes comprehended in the same oration because hee persuadeth vs to put off the Baptisme of children to the space of three or foure yeares some at lesse or more vnlesse sayeth hee that daunger doe enforce vs in which they myght learne answere some mysticall thing For that very Lawe of Circumcision sheweth that this is a most vayne reason which was giuē aswel as baptisme for the sealing vp of that couenaunt in Christ 150. Question But what tyme thinkest thou the fittest to administer Baptisme Answeare Here in a maner it is incredible to be spoken howe great confusion was brought into the Churches vnder the shewe of order and specially into the Greeke Churches For it is certayne by the Acts of the Apostles that at the beginning baptisme was ministred as occasion was offred they for the moste parte which came vnto Baptisme beeing rather endued with Faith in Christ by miracle then by any order of the institution Afterwardes as it specially appeareth by the seconde Defensory oration of Iustinus the holy Ghost beginning to woorke by litle and litle by ordinary means when the congregations were gathered together baptisme was ministred Afterwardes that all things might be done in order instructers being ordeyned two dayes were at the first by a certayne custome then by lawe and at length as it were by a certaine superstition appointed for the baptizing of those that were so instructed Nowe at the length it was brought to this passe that it was in a maner compted a great trespasse to baptize at any other time then at Easter and at Whitsontide Further vnder the cullour of this order appointed to the end that they that were catechized suche as were in the beginning all those that were to be baptised as well of the Iewes as of the Gentiles should not be called euery day nor before a lawful profession it is in a manner incredible to thinke what confusions were pulled intoo the church especially for that cause because that whereas baptisme in those same that were of the yeeres of discretion was the first entrance intoo the congregation of the Church they coulde not precisely wayte for the sett time of Easter and Whitsontide but they must thinke themselues after a sort condemned who in the meane season fell into the daunger of death And heerevpon that also ensued that they were bounde too discharge an infinite number from those Lawes who also pretended other thinges So crept in that same errour to the absolute necessitie of baptisme which opinion when it seemed to thrust downe all men headlong into hell a wise treacle was giuen of some diuising a certaine place in which they shoulde bee placed which were deade without baptisme through no faulte of their owne neyther shoulde they feele indeede those euerlasting paynes neyther be pertakers of that heauenly blessednesse which also Nazianzen hath taught I omitte other infinite things which may rightly cause Christians being better learned too bee ashamed and were brought in by the meanes of those thinges which at the first were appointed for order sake Question But what doest thou gather of these Answeare That for as