Linguistic DNA - Concept Modelling Demonstrator

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	bring_v	great_a	see_v	3,054	5	3.0976	3	true

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A09292	A defence of that which hath bin written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie, and the communicating with them. By Iohn Penri	Penry, John, 1559-1593.	1588 (1588)	STC 19604; ESTC S101169	21,857	64

A defence of that which hath bin written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie and the communicating with them By IOHN PENRI THere bee two thinges M. D. Some wherein you by oppugning that trueth which out of the worde of God I had sette downe concerning the two former questions haue beene wanting both vnto your selfe and to the cause the defence whereof you vndertook The former want of the 2. appeareth by your spare dealing in a matter of such great waight wherein you haue dealt with so illiberall a hande that what hath bin written by you might seem to proceed rather from any then froÌ„ a man whose giftes and learning seemed to promise the affordinge of greater and more waightie matters then any set downe in that treatise The nomber of my resons were many you onely haue touched 2. of theÌ„ the rest are not dealt with And therfore the cause as yet remaineth whol For be it you had aunswered these 2. as you haue not yet had you not satisfied the doutful coÌ„science of those that know not in these points which way to turn them as long as any one of my reasons remained vnanswered In this point there is also another want which I would had bin redressed And that is of two sorts First a manifest going from the controuersie For the question being whether ignorant men not ordained of God for the gatheringe together of the Saints be ministers or no you leaue that and prooue the Sacraments administred by them viz. by popishe priests and our dumbe ministers in the daies of blindnes and ignorance to be sacraments which is no part of the matter in controuersie but another point to be discussed if men will be gotten at all to enter therevnto when the former is determined and decided Secondly your reasons are so few so commonly knowen vnto all that for their nomber a small deate of paper might containe an answere vnto them for their noueltie they coulde not put a man that had accordinge vnto knowledge but once allowed of the cause to anye great labour in answering them As being things so commonly obiected by all learned or vnlearned that holde our readers to be ministers and thinke it lawfull to coÌ„municate with them as by cours of spech they fal vnto that discourse wher al men may easily see that there was a great ouersight committed by M. SOME in deeming that the oppugning of a cause countenanced by most of the godly learned would be taken in hand by any who could not answere the reasons which he might be sure would be obiected by al. And who could be ignorant that the odious controuersie coÌ„cerning the profanation of baptisme both by popish priests our dumb ministers would offer it selfe in the forefront to withstand the trueth that the ciuill magistracie the ministerie of the dumbe Leuites the corrupt outward calling of our readers woulde require an answere which are the reasons and the onely reasons vsed by you The last want I finde in you is contained in the insufficiency of your resons which euidently shew the insufficiencie of the coÌ„clusion that would be inferred by them Your resons are all of them faultie eyther because they desire that for granted which is the question or make those things of like nature wherin there is a gret dissimilitude FroÌ„ the first of the 2. falts it commeth to passe that you take for granted that the writings of reuerende and godly men as of Augustine M. Beza c. will prooue that which the word of the eternall God doth not warrant Hence you take it graunted that popish priests were ministers that the outwarde approbation of the Churche maketh a minister that whensoeuer the word of institution is pronounced with the outward element ther must presently be a Sacrament that I take an euill minister for no minister that there was a nullity both of Caiphas his ministerie because he came in by briberye and of the litigious ministers in the Church of Philippi c. How soeuer you take those things as granted principles 1. Phil. 1.15 yet they are the points in controuersie and so far from beeing yelded vnto by me that I haue shewed euery one of them to be manifestly false The dissimilitude is in the reasons drawn from the Leuitical priesthood and the ciui magistracie with whom if you compare the ministery of the new couenaunt you shall finde firste that you bring in a similitude to shew that whiche is not prooued and secondly that you make those to bee twinnes which all men must needes graunt to be as vnlike as crooked straight lines are vnmatchable And thus much I thought needfull generally to set downe concerninge your manner of dealing Not that I wold any way disgrace you whoÌ„ I reuerence for that is no part of mine intent the Lorde is my witnes Nay I would be loth to let that syllable escape me that might giue you or any els the least occasion in the world to thinke that I carrye any other heart towards you then I ought to beare towards a reuerend learned man fearing God And howsoeuer vnles you alter your iudgment I can neuer agre with you in these pointes because I am assured you swarue froÌ„ the truth yet this disagreement shal be so farre from making a breach of that bonde of loue wherewith in the Lord I am tyed vnto you that I doubt not but we shal be at one in that day when al of vs shall be at vnitie in him that remayneth one and the selfe-same for euer Now I am to come to your booke from the 20. page whereof vnto the 28. laying the foundation of the reasons you vse against mee to prooue the lawfulnes of communicatinge with dum ministers you handle two neadles points First that they which were baptized by popish priests haue receiued true baptim as touching the substance Secondly that they are the sacramentes of baptisme and the holy supper of the Lorde which are deliuered in the Church of England by vnpreching ministers In these two pointes M. Some you haue prooued nothing that my writinges haue denied but you haue quickened a dead controuersie not vnlikely to giue the wrangling spirits of this age cause to breed greater sturres in the Church I see no other effect which the handling of these questions can bringe foorth but this And it is to be feared that the slendernes of the reasons vsed in your booke to prooue that which you haue vndertaken to shew will geeue occasion vnto mannie whoe of them-selues are too too readie to iangle to doubt of that wherof before they made no question So that by seeking to stay the course of a needful coÌ„trouersie you haue both giuen it a larger passage and opened the doore vnto a question very fruitlesse in our time you know I deale in neither of these pointes If you cannot be stayed from entring into controuersies that are very odious and more impertinent vnto the matter in hand it were

countrimen I haue enforced by manye strong and as I am assured inuincible reasons drawne out of the infallible trueth of Gods worde I woulde intreate yon M. Some when you haue answered the reasons I haue nowe set downe to answere also the 1.2.3 and 25. reason that I haue there vsed For you shall but striue in vayne against the conclusion as long as the premises whereby it is inferred remaine firme If the reader woulde be further satisfied in this poynte concerning the dumbe ministery he is to be referred vnto that which in the aforesaid treatise I haue set downeÌ„ Nowe to the conclusion If vnpreaching ministers be no ministers and if I cannot be assured to receiue a sacrament but onely at the hands of a minister both which you see M. Some to be prooued by me then cannot I assure my selfe that an vnpreaching minister can deliuer a sacrament vnto me and therefore it is vnlawfull for me or any christian to go vnto an vnpreaching minister for the sacraments if vnlawfull then a sinne if a sin theÌ„ the godly are polluted which goe vnto them for the sacramentes you know M. Some what I meane by an vnpreaching minister namely euery one learned or vnlearned that cannot shewe him-selfe by the good trial of his gifts to haue that fitnes to teach whereof we read 2. tim 2.2.1 tim 3.3 which ability the Lord doth not ordinarily bestowe vpon any in these our dayes without the knowledge of the artes especially the two handmaydes of all learninge Rhethoricke and Logick and the two originall tongues wherein the worde was written And therefore I am as farre from accounting the vnskilfull preachers which speake hand ouer-head they care not what againste whom your complaint is very iust to be ministers as I am from acknowledging many of our absurd doctors to be apt to teach who can bring nothing into the pulpit but that which other men haue written and that very often so fit to the purpose of edification as the reason from the corner to the staffe is soundly concluded In these three sortes of supposed ministers and there could be a fourth added vnto them consisteth the woe of our Church The rest of your booke is nowe to be examined Your conclusion page 22. that they which were baptized by vnpreching ministers are rightly baptized as touching the substaunce of baptisme I do not gainsay Your reasons are weake For how coulde wee proue your conclusion if men should denie popish baptism to be true baptism as I do not you know he shuld do me great iniurie which would lay that to my charge Were it sufficient for vs to say they were Katabaptistes which denie popishe baptisme How could this be proued and this should not prooue the matter doubted off Shall wee saye that they sinne in not presenting themselues to be baptized To whome shoulde they present themselues who would baptize theÌ„ Admit they sinned in receauing the Lords Supper before they were baptized should they therefore bee bereaued of the comfort of baptisme to affirme that this weare a goinge backward is no reason because they were perswaded that they had baptisme otherwise they would not haue beene so farr on their iourney vntill they had beene accompanied therewith But they omitted baptisme of ignorance and not of contemt therfore they denie the receiuing of the Lordes supper to haue bene a sinne anye more then it woulde be a sinne in them nowe to receiue the Lordes supper if they coulde not haue baptisme Baptisme they woulde haue if they coulde orderlye come by the same Because men will bee so iniurious vnto them as to denie them the comfort of baptisme which they cannot haue should they denie to themselues the comfort of the Lords supper which they may haue Ye but no vncircumcised might eate the pascall lambe Exod. 12.48 True But what shall we say vnto those that were vncircumcised in the wildernesse fortie yeres almost Iosh 5.5 Did they neuer eate the passeouer all that time If they did the place of Exodus will be quickly answered It is plaine that the passeouer was celebrated in the wildernes once at the least Nom. 9.1 If euery yeare why should the godly of the family be excluded from the family be excluded from the action the cause why they were vncircumcised not being in them None vncircumcised might minister before the altar True but did non of the Leuits that were borne in the wildernesse teach Iaacob the law or offer the incense of his God in all those fourtye yeares Thus many thinges you see might be obiected against your reasons I take the obiections to bee of some waight It had bin well you had considered of them before you had published your booke And the baptisme by vnpreaching ministers must haue better prooffes then anye you haue brought as yet or else I feare me our posterities will not be satisfied therwith Your next reason page 23. is slender Readers pronounce the wordes of institution with the deliuerie of the element therfore saye you they deliuer a sacrament you haue once already alledged this to prooue popish baptisme page 20. I haue answered it page 29. 30. 31. And the place of Matth. 28.29 brought in by you page 23. proueth your consequent to bee false For it sheweth that he who is to baptise must bee also able to teache which abilitie is wanting in our readers Go sayth our Sauiour and teach all nations baptizing c. Therefore if he that deliuereth the element bee not able to teach we cannot be assured that it is a sacrament Because the commandement is not generally to all that could pronounce the wordes of institution beeing thereunto permitted by the corruptioÌ„ of the time but perticularly limited vnto them that can teache vnlesse you will saye that the Lorde biddeth theÌ„ go teach who cannot teach whiche were not once to be concerned of his maiestie The corruptioÌ„ in the Church of England that the deliuery of the element shold be seuered from the preaching of the word is a breach of Gods ordinance you cannot deny Matth. 28 19. act 20.7 and therefore vngodly and intollerable Whether it mak the action frustrate or no that is not the question Your 3. reason pag. 24. is this Vnpreaching ministers do ad an edifying word vnto the element therfore it is a sacramente This reason is the same with the former which sheweth the great nakednes and pouerty of the cause that one reason must be thrise periured to proue the goodnes of it which notwithstanding it caÌ„not shew I deny the antecedent consequent Your reason of the antecedent that the recitall of the sum of Christs Sermon that is the wordes of institution is an edifying worde is false and maintaineth charming For do you thinke that the worde of institution being as you say the summ of Christes Sermon is then an edifying word whensoeuer it is recited by a profane person euen in the profanation of Gods ordinance Looke 2. tim 4.3 and you

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