presently a nullitie Thirdly out of the seed of Adam she is limited only to the sexe of man if she should make a woman a minister there were presently a nullitie Out of the sexe of man she is limited only say we to those that can speake and haue the vse of reason for if shee shoulde make a naturall a madd man or a dumbe man a minister there were presently as we think a nullitie Now M. Penri goeth an ase further and saith that of those men that can speake haue the vse of reason shee is limited onely to suche as haue gifts and are in some measure Thithacticoi or else as he holdeth there is also a nullitie And here is that so hainous blasphemous error of his that hath so distempered M. Some and for the which he would so faine haue the magistrate to conjure him Whiche whether it be an error or no as for mine owne part I am not able to defyne it so yet doe I see that when men haue runne themselues windlesse in wanderinge yet must they of force in th'ende come to this to enquire Qualis est potestas Ecclesiae in admissione ministro rum quibus circumscripta finibus that is what kind of power the Church hath and within what boundes to be limited for therein consisteth the very marowe and sinewes of the whole controuersie to know how far the Church may stretch her arme in this case Yet by the way I cannot but muze at one thing that the popish churches should finde more grace and fauout in this our Metropolitan State then the reformed churches of other nations For it is graunted you see that the popish shauelings and their priests of Baal haue forsooth a calling though afaultie one but doe you think that this will be granted to those of our ministers that were only ordained by the reformed churches beyond sea Nay soft Be judge by M. Whittingham whome it is knowne th'Archb of Yorke called in question for his calling in that he was made minister at Geneua I haue heard also that M. Trauers when he was thrust out of the Temple was bidden by my Lord of Cant. to proue his calling alleaging that he was no minister for what authoritie saith he in his choller hath M. Cart. to make a minister Therefore you may see the lucke of it popish wretches and Apostates breathed vppon only by such as themselues are haue a callinge but other worthye men caled to the ministery by worthy churches must sine a newe for their letters of orders is not this good stuffe thinke you Wel sithence it is knowne that M. Trauers was in deede ordeined a minister by a reformed church beyond the sea I woulde your D. durst in his next discourse be as kinde to that poore ministery of his as he hath bene hithertoe to the popish priesthood that is of curtesie in respect of the credit of the Reformed churches to giue it some allowance of a calling yea albeit his grace of Cant. should stand against it For he knowes it can be no more blasphemie in M. Penri to say that the popish church can not make a minister then it is in an other greter man to say that the reformed churches cannot make a minister But I feare me M. Some is not at leasure he wil pleasure vs in an other matter for such a dash with a penne as this might happely breede a scabbe why is it not well that he taketh our parts in the Nullitie of womens ministerie but still men will be regrating more at his hands Therefore because we will holde him where we haue him I wil be so bold in that point to recorde his words lest in time he giue vs the slippe men growe so giddy headed nowe a daies They that haue heard my sermons saith he or read my writings doe knowe very wel that I alowe of non to preach the worde or administer the sacraments without a calling therfore neither woman nor priuate man plainly implying that it is vnpossible for a woman to haue any calling I promise you I was glad when I reade it with all my hart for I was halfe a fraide before I tel you that we should haue some learned paradoxe or some godly treatise in the defence of the ministery of weomen with this or the like prety gloze Quoad substantiam but not quoad qualitatem or else with this That they should haue had a calling though a faltie one which had bene but peccatum ecclesiae or else with this that the sexe had bene but of th'essence of a lawful good minister but not of a minister simply and that for vs it shold suffice only to muffie our faces with a setled perswasion that Ministerium is datum and acceptum and so hang wholly vpon th'ordination of the church without farther questioning or inquirye Al this I tel you I was a fraide of but nowe sithence we are sure of M. Some one our side we shal feare the lesse the assaults of others as hauing on string more to our bowe then we looked for For he is as learned in his conceite as the best of them and if he take a pitch I beleue he wil be as hot as the best of them toe for neede And thus by occasion of your D. worthy position that reading doth edisie haue I fallen as you see cursorie into the question of the ministers office and so of the calling of the ministerie It is but my poore verdicte you see and therefore you neede not make a recorde of it vnlesse you list for you knowe what a deep clarke I am if you desire farther to be satisfied in the point I referr you ouer to him to whome the matter especially appertaineth who I hope will either answere his aduersarie with lesse venâ—me and more modesty then he finds at his hands or els giue over the cause in silence For mine owne part as my skil is not greate so doe I not hould any thing but I am apt enough to recall it if you or a meaner man then you can bringe me the word to refute it but hithertoe I confesse I see noe farther Well your D. hath yet an other wipe at th'ignorant Welchman which I had like to haue forgotten the best is it is with an if aswel as the rest If you thynk saith he that al the popish sort that died in the popish Church are damned you thinke absurdly most true they that thinke so thinke absurdly in deede and I promise you therein I must hould with M. Some that if M. Penri thinke so he is much to blame But I pray you aske your D. when you see him vpon what wall or with what cole M. Penri did record this thinking of his for as yet I beleeue this monster is vnborne vnheard of And how if M. Penri or some of the fantastical crewe should nowe in riquitall say thus If you thinke M. Some that the calling of a B. or an Archb. is
what other confutation should a wise man make theÌ„ vah quam sordide quis suror que rabia Sure if your doctor had conceiled his name and sett only these 3. letters R. S. D. in the forehead of his booke his frends would rather haue taken it for Roger Salter Drouer then for Robert Some Doctor for they would neuer haue suspected that any such raggs as these should haue fallen from a man of that grauitie so rich in guifts and graces as they take M. Some to bee why is this your manner of canuasing of Controuersies in CAMBRIDGE or is it your custome nowe a daies to drawe the most of your arguments à sustibus sascibus à vinculis carceribus Doe you remember howe you were woont to be girding at me for our Oxforde Doctors as D. Kennall D. Barnard c. and to tell me that Barnardus non videt omnia with many such like glicks In requitall whereof if I should nowe lay D. Bridges and D. Some in your dish I thinke your aduantage woulde not be great Wel howsoeuer you may out go vs in other respects I hope in one regard you will not bee ouerhasty to compare with vs that is in Modesty and Mildenesse of spirit For to goe no farther shewe me if you can a Cambridge man that is a match to M. Reynolds I meane not in learning but in mildenesse or shewe me an Oxforde man that is a match to M. Some I meane not in learning but in bitternesse Surely I am perswaded I speake it not I protest of any partial affection that that one worke alone of D. Reinolds against Harte that wretched Iesuite may therein be as a patterne and glasse to your whole vniuersitie while the world standeth I doubt not but you haue reade it and then you cannot but knowe against what kinde of person he dealeth in that conference namely against one alredy atteinted and conuicted of treason in him against al such as were sworne enâ—mies to our religion and state such as had long thirsted for the destruction of her maiestie and th'ouerthrowe of God his church and viler men you knowe there could not lightly be vnder the sunne If any people in the world shoulde mooue a man to glaunce out into passion or his pen to impacience it were like enough to these And yet I beleeue prie as narrowly as you can you shal hardly pike out any one bitter evenimed or dispiteful sentence brought in of purpose only to wound and disgrace his aduetsarie in the whole booke See then the difference of spirits your doctor dealeth not with any such manner of man I trowe for M. Penri howe vnlearned soeuer he be as M. Some maketh him worse then a drudge and a turnespit in al maner of knowledg or howsoeuer he may vary from others in judgment is thought yet of those that knowe him to be very honest and godly of life and I haue heard that he is one that vsually haunteth the holy excersises of religion walking in al peaceable obedience to God and her maiestie and that he hath bin a meanes to reclaime and cal back some that for want of a preaching minnistery were euen at the brinke to decline to Brownisme this I haue heard howsoeuer it be if you haue reade his writings I appeale to your owne hart whether you thinke him the childe of God or no being in the judgment of some a thing vnpossible that any man should write as he writeth vnlesse hee were endewed with some good measure of Gods spirit if it be so then that he be the childe of God and that he be wide in this point as for mine owne parte I wil not trust him that neuer held error how happy had it bene for him if he had had M. Reinolds his aduersarie in liew of M Some of whome he might happen haue learned more and bene disgraced lesse For he that dealeth so mildely with an ennemie howe christianly thinke you would he haue intreated a brother whie alasse the question being Whether we may be assured to receiue a sacrament at the dumbe ministers hands is it not possible for a christian in humblenesse to handle this question vnlesse he runne to Vulcan the blacksmith for weapons or bring Hercules furens vpon the stage as M. Some doth setting out his aduersarie in the vilest and most deformed features that he can deuise and yet he knowes him not neither Nowe where it pleaseth him to saye that M. PENRI hath just as many learned of his side as H. N. the prince of the Familie of Loue as I woulde not wish M. D. to be therein ouer hastie to sweare so yet if it were so he knows that that ouer-worne argument drawne onely from the multitude can be no stronger for him then it hath bene heretofore for the papists But it shoulde fall out nowe this being a point that hath not beene heretofore greatly looked into that there should be any more of M. PENRIES minde hereafter I doe not see but that M. Some may in a sort thanke himselfe for it and that among many other reasons this may very well be one that your Doctor hath caried himselfe so loosely and distemperedly in the cause seeking rather to plague the man then to cleare the matter For when men desirous euen in simplicitie of heart to learne the trueth shall sensiblye perceaue that so famous and learned aman as M. Some reputeth him selfe to bee litle inferiour in aunciencie as some thinke M. Whitguist can none otherwise assaile or defend the cause then by houlding as it were a naked dagger in hand striuing by all meanes to drawe bloude of his aduersarie and crying out aloude on the Magestrate the Magestrate as if he had solde his logicke to become a jorney man in the shambles will not this thinke you bring many into a mammering and make them doubt of that they neuer doubted of And yet what wil you say if after al this rage choller he be so kind harted to grant M. Penri the cause Surely I am deceaued else and therefore I pray you tel me your judgment This among others is one of of M. Penries arguments 1 Euery ministery of the New Testament is a preaching ministerie 2 But the ministerie of our Readers is not a preaching ministerie Ergo. To the maior or first proposition M. D. saith thus If you meane as I thinke you doe every ministery of the word in the newe Testament I dissent not from you So that he graunts the maior you see To the minor or second proposition he saith flatly thus No man doubteth of this vnlesse he be voide of common sense And yet there are as learned as M. Some that dissenting from M. Penri in the point haue denied the minor aleaging that though the persons them selues could not preach yet their ministery Function wherevnto they were called might iustlie he saide to be a preaching ministerie But I hope these men howe lerned soeuer wil henceforth reuerse
notably layd open in aboue 200. places in his book to say that He doth more esteeme of one Caluine then of a thousand Penries as if that were any thing to the matter or as if the bare defacing of his aduersarie woulde any whit better his cause in the judgement of the wise or as if the trueth of God did at any time hang vpon the gifts and credit of men But now I remember me this is not altogether the bare judgment of D. Fulke alone nether for his books being as you see authorised and aparantly stamped with that State marke of Seene and alowed we may in that regarde trewly say that looke what is there advisedly set downe as this point that the popish church is no church at al must needes be because it is so often iterated and redoubled and to be proued very neere in 20. places of his works therefore I say looke what is there advisedly set downe and not by error or oversight mistaken is implicite the very judgment and resolution of our Church and State which being true M. Some hath a warme sute of it to keepe such a stirre about the authoritie of Calvine when those that my L. of Cant. saith can teach Calvine are of a contrarie judgment wherevppon I could here once againe for neede if I had olde Dorbel of Sarum lying by mee blunder you out an other proper figure or 2. to troūce M. Some with that shoulde sounde in your eares like a Iewes trumpe after the olde melodious manner Yea my learned D. are you good at that Is the winde in that doore are you still controling of our church state c. But because you are reasonably acquainted with this sweete note already I wil not stand nowe to set it in parts only you may see by this that if a man shoulde chance to tel M. Some to his face that to holde that the Romish church is in a sort the church of God is a grosse and palpable error there were no danger in it at all because he that shoulde so doe hath you see not only the judgement of a famous learned man to backe him but also the flat alowance of the Church of England to beare him out in it For Papistry being as M. Fulke hath proued not only a Scisme error and heresie but an vtter defection and a meere Apostacie compact of all errors what shoulde feare vs to say and avowe that our christian magistrates haue done wel not only with Thrasibulus to fly from the tiranny of Athens but rather with Lot and his family to leaue the whole city of Sodome wherein there was not any free place but al the body one a blister Even soe if the popishe Church be in trueth nothing els but a very lumpe masse and body of Apostacie what a proper nice disstinction were this to say that our Magistrates haue indeede seuered themselues from the corruption of Apostacie but not from Apostacie it selfe as if there were any thing in Apostacie but corruption Therefore if M. Some doe thinke he haue any advantage that way good leaue haue he to make his best of it For we are not afraide to say and say it againe yea and if it were possible to proclaime it in the hearing of al the churches in the world that Q. Elizabeth her godly magistrates haue not only seuered themselues from the plague that pestereth the city but from the very city of Sodome it selfe not onely as he saith from the corruption of the popish Church but from the very popish Church it selfe and the reason is because it is in no sort the Church of God hauing overthrowne the foundation and therefore must needs whether M. Some will or noe be the very Sinagog of Sathan And then say I as before that our magistrates haue done well that which they may justifie by good warrant from Gods worde otherwise they shoulde be apparantlye guiltie of a greuous sin which after my kinde of Logicke I prooue thus 1 All christian Magistrates are bounde vtterly to divorce themselues from that Church not only from the corruptions of that Church but from that very Church and society it selfe which hath made a diuorcement from Christ erreth in the foundation of our faith 2 But the Romish Church as is before sufficiently prooued hath made such a divorcement erreth in the very foundation Ergo. Our Magistrates ought as thanks be to God they haue done vtterly to diuorce themselues from that very Church it selfe therefore neede not M. Somes helpe to cleare them from being Scismatikes Thus you may see M. Somes worthy distinction of our Magistrats not severing themselues from the Church but from the Idolatrie of the Churche c. Is by this meanes quite quashed in peeces For if it were indeed in any sort the Church of God then woulde fall out this strange paradoxe that one and the selfe same bodie of a Church might in a sort be the church of Christ and in a sorte againe the Churche of Antichrist and that might be a peece of Iohn a Bridges diuinitie wel enough for the soundnesse of it Furthermore if it were only but from the staines and corruptions of the popish Church that this our seperation was made as M. Some woulde haue it then belike they and we are both one body of a Church though ours be as much more refined body then theirs But howe can that be when they holde not the same heade and foundation that we doe For one body you knowe must haue but one head otherwise it is a monster They then hauing an other heade then we haue we may safely conclude that they are not of the same body with vs neither doe I see any warrant for a Christian man to seuere himselfe from the bodie of Gods Church in that sort as we haue seuered our selues from Rome for any blemishes or corruptions whatsoeuer For so might out Brownists if they list get themselues a pretty pleadable shelter of defence and tel vs That they doe not forsooth seuere themselues from our congregation as from the City but from the plague that pestereth the citye Not from the common wealth but from the Tirannie that oppresseth the common wealth Not from our Church but from the soule disorders that bleamish our Church c. And if they should thus temper the matter I muze whether M. Some woulde be so curteous to take that for paiment But it is not come to that you see for our Brownists are farre of any such coulorable pretences They goe more roundly to worke with vs then so bash not to tel vs plainly though indeede very wretchedly and falsely That our church is not at al the vizible church of God and for that cause it is that they bear vs in hand they do so single themselues from vs and not for any disorders that might otherwise bleamish or dissigure our Church why shoulde we then more mince it with our papists
of the reyns because the veynes that swel so are commonly fuller of winde then of bloud yet for mine owne part I had rather a great deale attribute all these defects byships out rules of his to that extreame passion and vnrulye affection that quite overswareth his judgment and is able both to mate and to amaze a man yea and soe to blindefolde and bewitch him that he may soone breake his face against a walle if he looke not to it And this sure was the cause as I judge that the verye maine pointe betwixte his aduersatie and him he had not it shoulde seeme any leasure to pervse Eor the question being whether we may be assured to receiue a Sacrament at the Dumbe Ministers hands the very marrow and life of the whole controuersie lying in this word Assured your D. hath faier giuen it the slipp and hath not as far as I see in any on line clauze or sentence thorough out his whole booke so much as looked that way Nay it seemeth to me he is halse afraied of it when he seeth it For in the last place that I before mentioned of th'Edomites where M. Pemi saith that the godly cannot assure themselues c. what saith M. Some to this Not a word I warrant you tush he is among the organs at Pauls or els looking out of his window towardes Lambeth what should he meddle with the thing in question Can not an olde vniuersitie man finde his pen play enough without that And therefore hee threatens kindenesse on his aduersarie and wil needs wring from him whether he will or no. An acknowledgment of a Sacrament among the Edomites and prayeth him to remember it yet some mē thinke this matter of Assurance had bin the most need ful thing of al other for your D. to haue dealt in for the cutting of of al seruple and the satisfing of mens mindes For though a man shoulde make no question of the baptisme deliuered in times past by popish shauelings but satisfiing himselfe with those other comforts that he findeth in the holy excercises of Religion should neuer trouble himselfe to looke back so farre though I say a man should make no question of that which is past yet I se no hurt to desire to be assured in that which is to come which Assurance as M. Penri saith can never be had but by saith in the promises of God and that is the point he stands most vppon in al his writings vz. that in the whole scripture of God there is no promise to bare readers and men without gifts to deliuer and therefore no warrant for vs to receiue any sacrament at their hands All which if M. Some could overthrowe any otherwise then with some such stale jeasts as this why then my grandefather was not christened he might happen work more miracles then he is like to doe For he must thinke that it is neither these consequences nor inconueniences that smel so much of the flesh nor yet the authoritie of Calvin or Beza though wee shoulde admire their gifts and reuerence them as Angells that can settle a mans hart in this case it must be only the word of the living God and nothing els out of which whensoeuer we see any sufficient recorde to warrant this promise wherevppon our faith must be grounded it shall by Gods grace drawe presently from vs a willnig and reuerent subscription to the truth with an open revocation of al that ever hath bin written in that pointe to to the contrary But that there is no such Scripture to be had for money wee gather as by others so specialy by this late treatise of M. Somes wherin I dare be bold to say and I speake it advisedly for I thinke I haue vewed it meetly wel there is not to be found any on text of holy scripture to proue this Assurance which is the maine point in question and then say we whatsoeuer he proueth els there is some reason he should haue his labour for his travell because he hath bene at so vnreasonnable charges to wounde his owne shadow and do his adversarie no hurt Touching that point That the popish Churche is in a sort the Churche of God though an vnsounde Church More then that he croppeth out of Caluine Phillip de Mornay and others whiche was not written in suche strange characters neither but that it might be easily vnderstood before M. Some reuealed it vnto vs there is little I dare warrant you of his owne worth taking vp as they say and that is the thing that we expect in a learned man especially in this florishing age of the Gospell to yeeld vs some sapp and ioyce of his owne that thereby our judgements might be bettered and we also occasioned to praise the giftes and graces of Gods spirit as wel in him as in others Otherwise thus to cloy vs still and ouercloye vs with other mens sayings why alasse you see Th'alabaster man of Sarum can do that for need and that I warrant you so thicke and in so good order that if he coulde but handsomly turne to them without helpe it were euen learning inough for a man of his mediocrity neither might we well require more at his handes with modestie as in one of his bookes the 5. as I remember you shal find that the good soule hath fumbled together little lesse then 60. pages of other mens writings and scarce 4. or 5. whole ones of his owne and is not that a sweete kinde of bookemaking for a mirror to posteritie Now for the reasons that your D. seemeth to bring of his owne I am sorie to thinke they should be so ouer travelled or troubled with a Sciatica that they should not be able to looke a man in the face without limping Will you consider of them a little and tell mee whether they come not towards you for all the world like Cripplegate men as if they had need poore creatures of some Hospitall to relieue them The very name saith he of reformed Churches doth manifestly import that the churches of England Germanie Denmarke c. though popishe and vnsound were yet churches in a sort before or why els shoulde they bee called reformed churches What good lucke was it then that the protestant churches should light on the name of reformed churches at the first For if in liew of this they had happened to haue bene called Christian Churches you may see M. Some had bene in some distresse for one of his braue arguments and so peradventure his book would haue prooued lesse then it is by one 7. or 8. lines at the least For christian Churches could neuer haue done him halfe that pleasure as to haue implyed any necessitie that the church of Rome must needs be in a sort the Church of God before But it is onely this worde reformed that hath stroken it dead Hath not M. Some then good cause to bidd A blessing goe with him whosoeuer he were that in
trauelling ouer the mountains of Arabia firste founde out this name Reformed by meanes whereof he hath as you see so daunted his aduersary that he dare scarce peepe out of dores But I pray you tell me Is it not a miserie that such vnlearned stuffe as this should drop from the penne of anye man that beareth the face of learning who woulde stand then to blot paper in refuting that which faleih as you see to shievers of it selfe For when this worthy collection is at the strongest it will be founde but a meere childish Fallax from the bare name of a thing to a thing in esse as if it were a good consequent that this and this must needs be so because it is so cōmonly called and runnes so corrant in the account of men And yet vpon the like sandy foundation as this would he faine enforce vpon his aduersarie an acknowledgement of a Ministerie whether he will or no and that by his owne confession forsooth For doth not M. Penri I praye you call the ministerie of vnpreaching ministers An euill and prosane ministery why then haue at you sayth M Some a conjugatis and if that be a Ministerie then the persons that exercise that function must needs be Ministers Will you doe so much for me when you passe that way as to call at D. Peraes window to see if he can dissolue you of this doubt if he cannot then let him neuer trouble the Vniuersitie more for shame but faire bundle vp his bookes and get him to Waltham to some other trade For if it be manifest that M. Penri do speake here of such a Ministerie as hath onely the name of a ministerie and nothing els then must M. Somes reason a coniugatis if he will not haue it to look quite Collyweston point just likewise vpon suche a minister as hath onely the name of a minister and nothing els as if one by occasion should say thus This womans baptisme is a verye wretched and miserable baptisme or thus This wilde Irishe ministerie is a very vile and abominable ministerie had he not neede trow ye to haue his wits newe ground that vpon these or such like speeches woulde headely inferre any consequent eyther of a sacrament or ministery indeed because they are so called or that the popish Church was reuere in trueth the church of God because the bell so sounded in his eare This being as you know one of pore M. Bristowes reasons in his Motiues to prooue the papists to be Catholiks onely in regarde of the name in that they be called Catholiks who woulde haue thought that M. Some would euer haue bestowed new varnishing of an olde rustie and cankred blade which was so behackled before For may not I pray you the papists by as good a proportion prooue themselues Catholiks by the very name or the Midwife of Cheapstow prooue her baptisme to be a sacrament by the very name as M. Some prooues the popish Church to be a Churche or the dumbe ministerie to bee a ministerie onely for the name Surely I cannot thinke that his very Carmen whom he likeneth M. Penri vnto will euer be dismaied with suche poore papershort conclusions as these Well to make some amends you shall see now if you please the reason of all reasons euen such a one as if you looke not to it will go neere to clatter the glasse windowes in pieces Antichrist must sit in the Temple of God Ergo saith he The popish Church must needes be the Church of God This M. Some thinks to be a sure one and it semeth in deed he hath a speciall good liking of it aboue the rest in that he wil needs after it hath bene all to be battered and defaced by M. Penri that it knowes not wel which way to looke arme it neverthelesse into the field a newe as if a gilded coate armor could any whit releeue a drooping and crazed carkisse But now I haue learned the way let mee a loane with him let him bring it into the field a thousand times and that a horsekacke if he will you shal see that I am a man good enough for a dozen as braue Silogisines as this For I faier and flat denie the argument It may be you wonder at me but I tel you againe I deny the argument yea were it openly at the Commencement at Cambridge I would deny the argument never blush at it nay I am a shrewde fellowe I tel you why doe you not see what a lame legge it hath There lacks a certaine thing the cal Ever and then it were a good consequent in deed Antichrist must ever sit in the temple of god Ergo. The popish Church must needs be the Church of God And then by M. D. fauour if he reason so I denie th' Antecedent for it was sufficient say I that Antichrist first planted his seate in that place which was once the Church of God and no necessity that it shoude be so still Nay if your D. haue noe better reasons then these as meane a Clarke as I am I durst me thinks dispute with him in the point my selfe and I beleue if a man were disposed to enter into the question it were noe harde matter to bring other manner of profes against it then M. Some hath brought with it for any thing I see For what say you to this I pray you And tell mee whether I haue forgot my Logicke 1 If the popish Church continuing Popish be in any sort the visible Church of God then there must needs be some one member of it so continuing a visible member of the Church of God 2. But it is not possible that any one Member of it so continuing should be a vizible member of the Church of God Ergo. Howe say you Haue not I as good cause to make my cracks of this argument as M. Some hath of that braue one of his of Antichrists sitting in the temple of God By the way I pray you remember that I speake not here of Gods eternall councel or secreet election but of a vizible Church and vizible members and not of every vizible Church nether For I know there is Ecclesia Malignantium the church of the malignant but of the vizible Church of God by profession also when I speake of the popish Church you must take me that I speake altogether of such a church and such members as by profession continewe popish even in the main grounds of popery otherwise if we agre not of this we shal but swarue from the question and contend in vaine This being set downe then for the first I would faine knowe which of my propositions you can denie for I am perswaded I tell you that vnlesse they meete with a very vnreasonable wrangler they are both sound and of musket proofe As for the Maior I will neuer for shame loose time to prooue that It shal lie as it doth for me open to al the worlde