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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91887	Some few considerations propounded, as so many scruples by Mr. Henry Robinson in a letter to Mr. Iohn Dury upon his epistolary discourse: with Mr. Duryes answer thereunto. VVherein is observable with what overtures of spirit they endeavour to edifie each other, not withstanding their differing judgements and opinions about the Independent and Presbyterian way. Published by a well-willer to peace and truth, in expectation that it may no little conduce, either to the reconciling of such controversies, or to the debating them with lesse noise and bitternesse. Whereunto is annexed another epistolary discourse, written by Mr. John Dury, to a worthy knight, concerning the principles of meditation: from which rules may be gathered to direct men to order their thoughts, so as to finde a resolution of all their doubts.	Robinson, Henry, 1605?-1664?; Dury, John, 1596-1680.; Well-Willer to Peace and Truth.	1646 (1646)	Wing R1679; Thomason E345_1; ESTC R200979	39,103	49

means only are capable to build us up therein Thus have I presumed in as weak as cursory a manner to weigh the foregoing passages of your Epistolary discourse in the unequall ballance like enough of my own understanding but proceeding intirely from a desire of being better informed in what I am at a losse I doubt not but your singular candidnesse of mind will make a good interpretation of it The setling of an Ecclesiasticall Peace I apprehend to be of such eminent weight and consideration as that without it Christians will never in any comparative degree be brought to unity in discipline and doctrine and that more souls are kept from knowledge of the truth and miscarry through persecuting one another for cause 〈◊〉 conscience then by reason of all other such great differences betwixt them whether for discipline or doctrine If you have puplished any of your other thoughts concerning this subject besides your Consultatio Theologie● c. Letter to the L. Forbes and your Informati● Ecclesiis Reformatis oblata c. I should excedingly rejoyce to have a sight thereof and especially touching the demonstrative analizing the Scriptures which I conceive would be a greater Jewell then all that ever Solomon wrote of from the Cedar to the shrub Wherefore I most humbly beseech you for the publike good that you would not suffer the least dram of your Meditations in this behalfe any longer to lie waste or dormant which though it were not yet perfect and compleat might by degrees and contemplations of others well-affected be further improved to the eternall honour of the Almighty to whose gracious protection I cordially recommend your most pious endeavous and to them most earnestly desiring to become any wayes subservient do in all humble manner remain London the 5. of November 1644. Your most devoted Friend and Servant in the Lord Henry Robinson To his much respected and loving friend in Christ Mr. Henry Robinson Worthy Sir ALthough your Letter did miscarry and never came in the Originall to my hand nor the Copy thereof till I was resolving to goe from Rotterdam towards England yet I thought my selfe obliged to answer your love which then I did beginne to do but was interrupted in the prosecution hitherto neverthelesse lest either mine owne purpose or your equitable desires should be frustrate or I seem carelesse to give you some satisfaction to your scruples I shall now endeavour to perfect the thoughts which once were in my minde beseeching the Lord to assist us both with the encrease of his Grace that in this and all other services his Glory may be advanced by us But before I enter upon the matter I must truly tell you That as I cannot acknowledge any of these things in my selfe which you attribute unto me beyond my measure so I must needs take notice of the large expression of your affections which I am bound to requite and entertaine not only because you have moderate and sober thoughts of your self and because your way seems to me very ingenuous and your whole strain conscionable in the doubts which you make all which deserves respect but chiefly because the duty of Christian love even towards those that deserve it not is the only meanes of edification towards them For it doth make the testimony of divine Truth in the 〈◊〉 thereof without offence and therefore fit to be received through Gods blessing with profit by them to whom it is offered For as God is moved and is powerfull only by his love to reveale himselfe to us offering himselfe as a Father of spirits to his children which are our soules so we as children of such a Father are bound to doe all things in his love for so we are commanded by the Apostle Ephes 5. 1 2. and towards our Brethren we should as members of each other advance that knowledge which we have of him and his truth in love only and not otherwise For what we doe with any other affection is done in our ownestrength and will be found either ineffectuall or hurtfull to edification Therefore as I make no doubt but you have spoken the truth from your heart so I shall assure you that I shall without partiality lay open unto you my thoughts and hold out the light which I have received not only in these things which you have proposed but in all other matters wherein I shall finde my selfe obliged to beare witnesse to the Truth Now then beseeching him againe to direct our thoughts and guide our spirits in all truth by his holy Spirit of promise in Jesus Christ to be able to doe all things unblameably to the glory of his Grace and our mutuall comfort I shall endeavour to resolve the doubts which you propose and give you as briefly as may bee the best satisfaction I can 1. To the first Scruple then out of pag. 20. concerning the toleration of the Apologists I finde that you take not up rightly my meaning I will therefore explaine it first more fully and then come to the particulars of your exception Consider therefore that in the whole first part of my Discourse and consequently in that place which you alleadge I speake not of a Toleration of Forbearance whereby one Christian is bound with all long suffering to support another in meeknesse nor of a Toleration of Connivence in a Civill state whereby the Magistrate may winke at things which he cannot mend when they are not setled according to his judgement but I doe speake of that Toleration which I supposed the Apologists did sue for which I must call a Toleration of Approbation which the Magistrate as the publicke Minister of God in the visible society of men should setle therein for the welfare thereof My Question then in the first part of the Discourse is not what in State Policie I should have said humane Prudencie a Magistrate may doe lawfully if his inclination leads him thereunto or what in charity as a Christian he should intend to doe privately but what in state wisdome as it is subordinate unto Gods will in the profession of Christianity is most expedient for him to doe in his publicke place And in this respect I say that I thinke it no wisdome in a state seeking a Reformation of Religion to tolerate by way of Approbation that is in effect to authorise and setle for a time a publicke profession which they cannot finde to bee the true and only way which God alloweth This is the meaning of my assertion in the whole first part of my Discourse and in this sense only I disswade the state to grant the Apologists their Petition but if for other more important reasons it cannot be denyed then I thought it would be wisdome in the state so to limitate the Toleration which they should grant for time and manner that thereby a full agreement and unity might be brought to passe between the Apologists and their Brethren which is the subject of the two following heads of

SOME FEW CONSIDERATIONS PROPOVNDED As so many Scruples by Mr. Henry Robinson in a Letter to Mr. Iohn Dury upon his Epistolary Discourse With Mr. Duryes Answer thereunto VVherein is observable with what overtures of spirit they endeavour to edifie each other notwithstanding their differing Judgements and Opinions about the Independent and Presbyterian way Published by a Well-willer to Peace and Truth in expectation that it may no little conduce either to the reconciling of such Controversies or to the debating them with lesse noise and bitternesse Whereunto is annexed another Epistolary Discourse written by Mr. John Dury to a worthy Knight concerning the Principles of Meditation From which Rules may be gathered to direct men to order their thoughts so as to finde a resolution of all their doubts 2 Tim. 2. 24 25. A servant of the Lord must not strive but be gentle unto all men apt to teach patient in meeknesse instructing even those that oppose themselves Gal. 6. 1 2. If a man be overtaken in a fault ye which are spirituall restore such a one in the spirit of weeknesse considering thy self lest thou also be tempted Psal 50. v. 23. Who so offereth praise glorifieth me and to him that ordereth his Conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God LONDON Printed for Charles Green and are to be sold at his Shop in Ivie Lane at the signe of the Gun 1646. To the Reverend and much honoured Mr. IOHN DURY Reverend Sir ACcording to that small talent of understanding which it pleased the eternall Dispencer from whom all good gifts proceed to bestow upon me I may safely say and that with great joy of heart how amongst so many as doe argue and debate the present differences of the Churches particularly about the Independent and Presbyteriall Government I have not met with any who ever yet expressed so sweet so brotherly so Christian and even so Apostolicall a spirit as without any other prospective I clearly see inhabiting in you breast by some letters which came forth about two months agoe entituled An Epistolary Discourse c. with others which it pleased my worthy friend Mr. Hartlib to favour me withall your proceeding with the Apologists therein I cannot better expresse then as if it were between your own right hand and your left towards which any other then an equall proportion of liberty and affection would bee both unnaturall and unjust It is now eight monthes since I was bold to enquire after you in hope you had been in England with an intention of importuning you which since I perceived to be needlesse through your own forwardnesse to engage your selfe towards the reconciling of this Clergie War but understanding you were so farre off and withall scarce setled or well at leasure I forbore purposely to give you farther trouble However because in the beginning of your Letter to Mr. Hartlib as also in the other to Mr. Good win and Mr. Nye you seemed desirous of a further correspondency with the Apologists or some others in their way whereby you might have knowne the state of their case in England and as I conceive would gladly for the common Cause sake that some punctuall answer were made unto the Epistolary Discourse which I am fearfull will not succeed as yet in that I apprehend that most men of their way are rather totally possessed and taken up with an imminent danger and daily expecting some sudden sentence of absolute silence or certaine banishment for what is said already through a most fierce persecution of certaine unquiet Presbyterian Spirits the consideration whereof as also the great desire I have of being farther knowne unto you in the high esteem of those admirble gifts which God hath given you prevaile with mee to trouble you with these few generall considerations upon the reading of your Epistolary Discourse whereby you will perceive I take not upon me neither to state the controversie so much above my slender abilities and yet not as one altogether without hopes through Gods mercy which is still most eminent when most rely'd upon and the love you beare to truth a greater then which I know not where to find to make an ensample unto my selfe but that they may in some small manner and by degrees bee conducing unto the publique good Pag. 20. Briesly then about the middle of your book you please to say the Apologists are not to be tolerated unlesse they can shew their way of Non-communion to be the only way of God and the Presbyteriall contrary c. But I should suppose it sufficient if they can prove their way to be one of the wayes of God if but a possibility of salvation in their way since they professe before God and man and must be beleeved in charity that they cannot comply with a good conscience in any other way our Saviours Proclamation of He that was not against him was on his part Mark 9. 40. seems to make not a little to this purpose and so much the rather they may be tolerated whilst they insist not so much that the Presbyteriall government should be rejected by the State as that their own way be barely suffered among themselves but whilst the Presbyterian party or such as will not permit a Civil abode but banish or exp●ll all such as differing in opinon doe separate themselves from Church society they are Authors of a more desperate separation far worse then non-communion or the separatists themselves in whatsoever sense because they take away all possibility of regaining them if they were in an error by their conversation Pag. 21. The lesse the cause of separation is the greater the fault is in those that make it The cause of separation is great in apprehension of the Apologists but lesse in judgement of the Presbyterians proceeding only as these usually alledge about things indifferent and therefore they ought the rather to give way unto them since they may contrive it with a quiet conscience all the reason they give unto the contrary is the goodlinesse of uniformity in the outward comlinesse which cannot be stood upon as necessary much lesse to be pressed so far as not to suffer such to live amongst them who cannot comply through tendernesse of conscience godly reasonable and understanding men as they are thought to be should not by charitable men be deemed to separate to their so great inconveniences if their conscience could otherwise dispence with them whereas the Presbyterians here which stand upon their pantofles enjoying all accōmodations may easier be supposed to keep their dispised brethren of the Independent way to such hard taske and measure to gratifie their private interests Pag. 23. Let us remember that the servants of God must not strive but be gentle to all men chiefly unto our neerest brethren If the Apologists can be thought to strive 't is only in a defensive way to keep their consciences from being ravished into a uniformity whereof they finde themselves not able to give an

the Ministers thereof to use meanes towards them that the duties which Christ requires may be performed and in case of neglect to presse them by authority to the performance thereof 3. I give them no such inspection over the Churches which is Ecclesiasticall to vindicate and punish faults in fore interiori but only to hinder misdemeanours which are publikely observable 4. The Ministers are bound if it be required of them to give them an account of all their proceedings with all due respect that they may know the order of their wayes in all things because nothing ought to bee done in the darke or concealed from his cognizance As for that which I say of a States conscience that it ought to be like unto the conscience of a good Christian my meaning is that as a Christian in his private sphere must rule himselfe and those that are under him conscionably to Gods glory so the Councell of State is bound in its sphere to doe the like and though this ought to be so yet your inference is not good that therefore any man must resigne his understanding to anothers mans will and conceptions for all this is objected upon a mistake In a word I allow of no dominion over any mans faith or conscience but only as a Ministeriall service according to the Word wherein both the Magistrate and the Church-officer is to learn his duty and thereby Christ is to rule over the State and Church visibly and invisibly in the outward and inward bodily and spirituall relations 6. The sixth observation upon pag. 28 29. is answered already if the case be rightly understood and you will finde your mistake to lie in the civill and spirituall spheres in which the Magistracy and Ministery ought to walk For if they keep each within their own spheres there will never be cause of contest for the spirituall hath no power over the civill government nor the civill over the spirituall as such but only in cases of misdemeanor And in this case only I say that the Magistrate hath power to hinder a people in the choosing of a Teacher when they do it not orderly but tumultuously or when a Minister in a factious and violent manner or otherwise disorderly thrusts himself upon a people he may and ought to take cognizance of the matter and see good order peace kept according to the rules of Ecclesiasticall government Therefore let every Christian in Gods name have his full liberty to try the spirits and to hear all and hold fast that which is good but let him use his liberty orderly and give no just cause of complaint or grievance unto others 7. In your seventh observation upon p. 36. you plead again for the freedome of disputes and to follow that which is best which I never intended to restrain only let it be regular and for the end of edification without vain jangling and confusednesse of strife and passion 8. The eight observation upon p. 30. concerning the power of the Magistrate in Church-matters I will admit if taken in the sense which I have formerly delivered 9. To the ninth observation upon pag. 31. I say that God doth not require that we should walk after any light but that which is the true light which enlightneth every man that cometh into this world therefore all are bound to seek that light and never rest till they finde it It is true that no man can follow any other light but that which seemeth to him to be true according to his measure but thence it doth not follow that wee may strive and contest without end for every thing that to us appeares to be truth the weight of matters is to be considered with discretion and because no man will presume to be infallible the way of proposing our sense of truths ought to be such as may declare that we can bear diffenters and are not unwilling to admit of further light if offered unto us from the Word And although a Synod or Generall Councell hath no infallibility annexed to the Decrees thereof yet there is some difference to be made between the private opinion of one and the consent of many whose praises are in the Churches This consent of many attesting the same matter as a truth doth oblige men that are of an humble Spirit and love not to be wise in themselves to consider things more exactly wherein their judgement differs then otherwise they would do And if they cannot finde light enough to assent unto them yet discretion will require a moderation in dissenting excepting some invincible and demonstratively convincing reasons can be alledged why it is necessary both to dissent and to professe a disagreement and yet in this case the professed disagreement of judgement should be without breach of brotherly love and with the preservation of the unity of the Spirit in matters of undoubted practice for mutuall edification at least so far as in us lieth For the Apostolicall rule Phil. 3. 16. So far a● we are come let us walk by one rule and let us mind the same thing is never to be refused on our part if offered by others nor neglected if it may be obtained how far soever we differ in judgement from others in matters extrafundamentall 10. To the tenth observation upon pag. 32. concerning a brotherly correspondency in a Presbyterie which you allow of so long as it doth continue brotherly I have this to say that I am confident your feares of being driven by rods and staves from your father in heaven will be needlesse For the Presbyterian way doth cease to be Presbyterian if it be not sociall as between confederates who in all things are equall one to another so that all alike judge and all are alike judged and every thing is done by common consent and counsel nor are any rights taken from private Churches but rather confirmed and strengthered to them As for the separation which you call in your opinion just to which for some respects you think your selves forced unto I know not what else to say but that I cannot see how it may be just or lawfull for any to separate from a true Church for causes not laid open to them and for matters extrafundamentall For although I finde things in my Brethren 〈◊〉 which are very offensive to me and might perhaps amount in my opinion to a just cause of separating from them yet before it is lawfull for me actually to separate I am bound in all meeknesse first to beare witnesse of those things unto them and seek redresse thereof letting them see the grievance which they bring unto my conscience and then if they will neither redresse the causes of my grievance nor satisfie my judgement in an orderly way but cast me out from them not at all taking notice of my complaints if I say in dealing thus I be thus dealt withall then I may and not till then be separate So that I am so farre from thinking it lawfull