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A35922 A dialogue betwixt Whig and Tory, aliàs Williamite and Jacobite Wherein the principles and practices of each party are fairly and impartially stated; that thereby mistakes and prejudices may be removed from amongst us, and all those who prefer English liberty, and Protestant religion, to French slavery and popery, may be inform'd how to choose fit and proper instruments for our preservation in these times of danger. Defoe, Daniel, 1661?-1731, attributed name.; Overton, Benjamin, attributed name. 1693 (1693) Wing D1361; ESTC R229679 34,923 48

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A DIALOGUE BETWIXT Whig and Tory Aliàs Williamite and Iacobite Wherein the PRINCIPLES and PRACTICES of each Party are fairly and impartially stated that thereby Mistakes and Prejudices may be removed from amongst us and all those who prefer English Liberty and Protestant Religion to French Slavery and Popery may be inform'd how to choose fit and proper Instruments for our Preservation in these Times of Danger Printed in the Year 1693. To the KING SIR THO the Sacred Majesty of Kings I am sensible ought not in common Cases to be approach'd by every little Busy-body or frivolous Remonstrance-maker yet when our Prince's Palace is on Fire and his Sacred Person in the midst of Flames the meanest of his Subjects hath the Privilege then to give him warning of his Danger and to assist to quench the Fire And this I am afraid Sir is at present too near our Case or I would not have assum'd the Boldness to disturb your Repose or have plac'd my self so disadvantagiously before your Majesty as I must expect to appear under the Character of a Publick Censor of the Manners of your Ministers and a petty State-Reformer But it is not I alone that am thus concern'd and busy for the Publick the whole World are at this time mournfully reflecting upon the miserable Estate we are fallen into from that happy and glorious Prospect of things which we had in 1688 and 1689 This hath put all Men upon Enquiry into the Causes of the unhappy Change of our Affairs and I find it agreed on all Hands That the principal occasion of our Misfortunes or rather Mismanagements is from the intrusting those with the Government of all who were the Creatures and Tools of the two last Reigns and are irreconcileable Enemies to your Majesty's Government those who opposed your coming to the Crown those who declar'd to your Face King Iames the only Rightful King Those who sold their Country and betray'd it to the two last Kings and will be always ready to sell it even to the French King if he prove the fairest Chapman I have heard that Thurloe who was Secretary of State to Cromwel being ask'd by King Charles II. how they did support their Government so long when all the Nobility Gentry and Clergy were against it he replied By intrusting those only in the Management of all Affairs who were as heartily against that Nobility Gentry and Clergy I do not apply this literally for God be prais'd your Majesty hath a great part of all these several degrees of Men who are most heartily and zealously in your Interests But I mean by this that you are to oppose your Enemies with their Enemies not with their Friends And that the Design of keeping out King Iames with Jacobites seems to be as impracticable as his Project prov'd of setting up Popery with a Protestant Army Yet there are some about your Majesty who for base and private Ends endeavour to possess you with the destructive Politicks of courting and buying your Enemies into your Service and would perswade you that King Iames's Tories are the only Party truly principled for Monarchy and are fittest for Employment as being long practis'd in Business And that on the contrary your Majesty's best Friends whom they call Whigs are not only ignorant and unacquainted with Publick Business but are Haters of Monarchy of Common wealth-Principles and at best for making their Kings no more than Dukes of Venice and Kings of Clouts Now this is a Notion so false so fatal to the Prosperity of your Affairs and so dangerous to the very Being of your Government that I cannot but think it highly necessary that this Matter should be fairly stated and laid before your Majesty I am sensible how unfit I am for the Task and how open I lie to a Charge of Presumption in attempting it But as the Son of Cyrus who was from his Birth dumb broke Silence when he saw his Father in the Hands of his Murderers so since I saw no other Champion appear in this Cause I resolv'd to break through all Impediments even those of Nature and to endeavour the Rescue of my King out of the Hands of those who have already been the Ruin of two Kings your Majesty's Predecessors and who will undoubtedly bring you and your Affairs into great Difficulties if you be not delivered from their Counsels In order to this I have impartially made a Collection in the following Dialogue of all the Arguments which Whigs employ against the Tories or Tories against the Whigs and submit it to your Majesty's discerning Judgment and most piercing and distinguishing Wisdom upon the whole which of them are most proper for your Majesty to employ those who were in the Interests of Popery and of France or those who oppos'd both to the Death I appeal to you Sir whether a Tory's being for the Divine Right of Succession and consequently for King Iames's Monarchy makes him the fitter in Principle to be employ'd by King William Or whether his boasted Skill in Business will be of any use to your Majesty if he be in Principle and Inclination for K. Iames and believes K. William a King de facto only without a Rightful Title and in plain English an Usurper If these Gentlemen as their Principles will naturally lead them to do use all their Skill in their several Stations to obstruct and make difficult your Affairs to betray your Designs to your Enemies to countenance and protect K. Iames's Friends in all their Plots and Contrivances furnish them with Intelligence help them to Passes Escapes c. all which things it cannot be denied have been and are daily done by some Persons employ'd in this Government Of what Use Sir or Service then is this boasted Skill in Business to your Majesty's Interests Certainly Men less conversant in Publick Affairs who have a Zeal for your Government would be of more Use and Service to you Men who were persecuted by K. C. and K. I. either in their own Persons or in the Persons of their Friends who were fin'd imprison'd and some of their Relations hang'd in those Reigns are more likely to act in earnest against K. I. and in the supporting your Majesty and your Government than those who had their Fortunes and their Families rais'd by K. I. and his Brother K. C. and who hope to be rais'd yet more by his Return or at least to secure in his Government what they have got in this by obliging him and his Friends at the Price of sacrificing you and yours For Example Is it reasonable to believe the E. of N. whose Father and Family was rais'd by K. C. and K. I. for prostituting the Law and his nauseous Rhetorick to the Designs of those two Brothers who himself was a Privy-Counsellor with Father Peters and chosen by K. I. at the time of the Revolution to treat with your Majesty at Hungerford in order to delay your Progress to London and lastly who so
to fetch a Comparison that will answer all Objections And to give the Beauty of her Government its due Lustre let us set it off with the Difficulties that attended it and surrounded it in the beginning Let us consider her in the first place of the weaker Sex a Woman having no rightful tho a lawful Title The greatest part of her Subjects of a contrary Religion to her The Queen of Scotland her next Neighbour a Pretender to the Crown Ireland in open Rebellion The King of Spain the greatest Monarch of Europe at that time her mortal Enemy and Invader Plots and Conspiracies by the Papists against her at Home And no Ally Abroad but the Dutch then an Infant State and supported by her And yet we see this poor weak Woman in the midst of all these Disadvantages Absolute and Uncontroul'd at Home Aweful and Glorious Abroad This indeed seems very extraordinary Let us enquire therefore what Methods were then practised in order to the producing such wonderful Success Was it by corrupting Elections or making Pensioners of Parliament-Men No for her Courtiers pleaded as well in Bar of being Parliament-Men as of being Sheriffs that they were the Queen's Servants So that by this we may reasonably conclude there was nothing to be got by it in those days Was it by employing her Sister Queen Mary's Ministers or courting her Enemies the Papists No For she made England too hot for the one and adorn'd almost every Gibbet in the Nation with her Justice upon the other Was it by a standing Army then Not that neither for she had no Army nor no Guards but her Gentlemen-Pensioners and Yeomen of the Guard I know you 'll say How the Devil could she bring Matters about as she did without using any of the admired Methods of our late Times In good sooth even by so homely and plain a Receipt that you 'll laugh at me when I tell it you Only by loving and courting the Love of her People and not preferring Scotish French not Irish Favourites to them as in the late Reigns By being just to their Rights and Liberties and devoted to their Interests By rewarding bountifully and punishing severely By encouraging honest Men and browbeating State-Projectors and Tricksters Knaves who perswade Princes that their Interest is separate from the Interest of their People who counsel them to stretch Prerogative or be over-fond of it who endeavour to breed unkind Thoughts in them to their best Friends and honestest Subjects This sort of Gentlemen were out at Heels in her time She like a truly wise Woman never seem'd fond of Despotick Dominion nor of those who flatter'd her with it and put her upon it for she knew that Nolo Dominare is the readiest way to Power in England and that it is soonest found of those who seek it not She wisely thought that to be the Deliverer of Europe a greater Character than to be Conqueror of it and that it would be more truly glorious to redeem one single Town from Slavery than to enslave the whole World Not like some of her Successors who unworthy to be Soveraigns of the Noble Order the Kings of England wear have chosen rather to be the Dragon than St. George rather to destroy than to defend their Kingdoms She never took Money from her Subjects but she gave them a Penny-worth for their Penny and was seldom nice in according them such Laws as they thought necessary to their Safety For being well assur'd of her own just Intentions she never suspected theirs And thus at last she got an absolute Power even over the Laws as a good Wife gets a Power over her Husband by loving and obeying him And now I think I have sufficiently exemplified what sort of Ministers and Methods they are which make Princes Great and Glorious Monarchs and which make them Kings of Clouts And whether this latter Character belongs to the Whig or Tory I submit to the Judgment of every impartial and reasonable Man But go on with your Charge Tory. It is objected against you Whigs also that you do not love the King's Person Whig What an Accusation hast thou blundered upon thou very Irish Tory thou eternal Trifler Not love the King's Person 'T is a Thought fit only for a Chamber-Maid when the Chaplain or Valet offer their Service to her Kings are to be lov'd by Millions of their Subjects who never see their Persons as Heaven is by Mankind for their Providence and Care of their People for the Influences they dispense of their Justice and Mercy and for the universal Good and Benefits which they scatter amongst their Subjects And in this Point their Thoughts and Designs should be God-like and by any other sort of Lovers than these any King will be as slenderly accompanied in his Misfortunes as King Iames was to Feversham But besides this Accusation is as false as it is foolish pray Sir Who shew'd the most early Inclination to the Prince of Orange's Person the Whigs or the Tories Who went into Holland first and begun the Project of the Prince of Orange's coming over hither Whigs or Tories Who put the Crown upon his Head when he did come Whigs or Tories But to come nearer to the Point Did not the Whigs shew a most apparent Partiality to the Prince of Orange's Person in all the Points of the Settlement of the Crown and particularly in giving it Him for Life overlooking at the same time the P. of D's Title and the Lineal Succession Did they not to a Man stand by the King's Authority in the Debate concerning the P. of D's Revenue and leave the Disposal of that Affair entirely to the King's Pleasure And now after four Years being us'd like the worst of Enemies for all these Services after being shut out from speaking to the King and almost from seeing him after being discountenanced and frown'd upon they have notwithstanding like the humerous Lieutenant ever shewed a grutching to his Grace upon the least Encouragement or Invitation and have at the opening of every Sessions for three Winters successively still been ready to swallow the same Sweetnings and to be coaks'd by a Clap on the Cheek like an old City-Cuckold and Cully and have been wrought into a Credulity which nothing but their Fondness and Dotage on the King's Person could have effected Tory. But you will not deny that you have sometimes express'd your selves peevishly concerning the King Whig And what Lover that hangs or drowns himself for his Mistress does not do the same Railing in a Lover is an infallible Symptom that he is far gone in the Distemper And no Woman ever yet resented it when it came from that Cause But our Court hath not learn'd to distinguish between those who are angry with them in concern for their Prosperity and those who seem pleas'd with them in hopes that they are in the way to Destruction And to speak plainly Sir the Partiality and Courtship which the King hath
shewed to you Tories in spight of all your apparent Hatred of his Person as well as your profess'd Dislike of his Title and Government and the Aversion he hath shew'd to the Whigs and Contempt of all their Advances and Addresses hath begotten ugly Reasonings in jealous and prying Men as if there were a Biass towards the Principles of former Governments rather than to those this Government declar'd for and set up upon And even the wise and well meaning Tories begin once again to smell a T d when you hold it so near their Noses But come proceed Tory. You are likewise accus'd of being wedded to a Party and by that means will reduce his Majesty to be King of a Faction only of his Subjects Whig This will appear much otherwise if you will please to remember who brought in the E. of N. to be Secretary of State and many others of that Party and how few of your Faction were displac'd by the Whigs when they had Interest with the King But this Charge will appear most foully true upon you who by the basest Ingratitude and Villany fell upon undermining those who brought you into the Government the minute you were possess'd of the King's Ear. And yet you see notwithstanding all your barbarous Treatment of us We have always come in chearfully to all Votes for Money all Loans and all other Measures to support your Credit and the Common Interest till both are fallen so low that the Peoples Clamours were never so loud nor their Dissatisfactions never so great You like Solomon's Harlot are for tearing the Government asunder if you may not have the Possession of it We have shew'd on the other hand true Motherly-Tenderness and consented rather that it should remain in your Possession entirely than be torn in pieces betwixt us till it appear'd to all the World what a vile Step-Mother you have been and how you have starv'd and abus'd a Government worthy your most indulgent Tenderness and Care And yet I am not for refusing any Tory that gives Proof of his sincere Repentance and of a Love to his Country but with all my Heart would give my share of the fatted Calf to make the returning Prodigal welcome tho I cannot but think it reasonable that you should submissively seek the Government and not the Government submissively seek you that you should own your Sin against Heaven and against your Country and give Security of another course of Life for the future and not justify your Faults and persevere in them If I could see amongst any of you the least Consideration for the common Good and Benefit of Mankind and the universal Welfare of your Fellow-Creatures to which you are bound by the Law of God and the Law of Nature and to which all the Heathens who were not barbarous paid a most profound Reverence and Obedience and preferr'd to all private Interest to Wives Children Estate nay to Life it self If I can find any amongst you a Lover of his Country a sincere Supporter of the Laws Liberties and Interest of the English Nation I am as much his Servant tho he be a N a C or a R as if he were a S a R a S or a T But instead of shewing any Regard to the Interest of the Nation any Bowels for your Country any Self-denial in point of private Interest Have you not sold your Country and their Birth-rights upon all occasions like Esau for a Mess of Pottage Have not some of you put off Human Nature Human Reason and all common Honesty so far as to conspire to bring in a French Power to gratify your private and personal Piques To bring in Popery and Slavery to rule over you because you cannot Tyrannically rule over your Fellow-Subjects Remember what the Presbyterians got by being so active in restoring the two late Popish Kings hoping to be reveng'd thereby upon the Independents and other Dissenters Were they not mingled in the same Persecution with the others nay more oppress'd and mark'd out for Wrath as being more numerous and more considerable than any other Sect Just so must the Church and their Proselytes expect to fare from the Hands of their Popish Friends whose Cause they are so zealously propagating they may admit them to the Honour of being the Cat's-foot but not a bit of the Chesnut No Whig no Fanatick but will then have as fair Quarter at least from King Lewis as you for King Iames I take to be only a Cypher and Property to your French Lord and Master who when he hath finished his Work will finish his Life too And do you Iure Divino you truly Loyal Gentlemen think that you will find more Favour then for being more attach'd to King Iames's Interest No be assured the most inveterate Enemies of King Iames will meet with as favourable a Treatment at least as you who have professed your selves so violently enamour'd of King Iames's Person and of the right Line Reflect a little upon the King of France's Conduct at the time of the late Revolution He knew long before the Prince of Orange's design of making a Descent into England and could have prevented it a thousand ways but instead of that he writes to Barillon then his Ambassador in England to know in what Condition King Iames was to oppose the Prince's Forces He being a Foreigner and judging only by outward Appearances represents the Army of King Iames sufficiently powerful to resist what Force the Prince of Orange could bring whereupon the French King believing that the English and Dutch would by this means weaken and destroy one another and leave a fair Game for him the next Year against the Emperor and Flanders and to take away all Apprehension from the Dutch of their needing an Army for their own Defence and to give all Encouragement to their Design upon England he draws all his Troops from the side of Flanders and falls upon Philipsburg which Army if he had marched towards the Spanish Frontiers in Flanders the Dutch durst not have transported a Man and the whole Design of the Descent had been at an end From hence it is plain what Friendship the French King had for his dear Brother King Iames and what you may expect from this Man of Honour and good Nature when you have serv'd his Turn Come grow wise and honest and let us not divide under this or that Ministry under this or that Faction or Party but let us all unite against the common Enemy let us make the Publick Interest and the Support of the Government as it is established by Law our chief and only Aim and for all Projectors and Conspirators whether for a Commonwealth a French Tyranny or any other Tyranny I wish they were all hang'd on the same Tree the first for Fools the others for Miscreants and Villains And thus much and no more am I for being wedded to a Party Tory. I own you have told us a fair Tale but nothing is