of the poore or of the vniuersitie and that that exces is the cause of diuers disorders in those persons that haue it but that they could not preache truely when they preached whych had great liuings I for my part neuer heard it I thinke you would not be exempted from reprehension of that wherin you fault and therfore I knowe not what you meane by these words the they did not those things them selues which they taught others we profes no such perfection in our liues but that we are oftentimes behinde a great deale in doing of that whych is taught to be our dueties to doe and therefore thinke it necessary that we should be reprehended and shewed our faultes Whereas you say that the Anabaptists accused the ministers for geuing too much to the Magistrates I haue shewed what we geue and if it be too little shew vs and we will amend our fault I assure you it greueth me and I am euen in the beginning weary of turning vp thys dunge and refuting so vaine and friuolous slaunders wythout all shewe and face of truthe and therfore I will be breefe in the rest To the thirde We praise God for this reformation so farre forthe as it is agreeable vnto the word of God we are glad the word of God is preached that the sacraments are ministred that whych is wanting we desire it may be added that whych is ouermuche cutte of and we are not ashamed to profes that we desire it may be done according to the institution of the churches in the Apostles time You your selfe confes that excommunication is abused that no amendment of life appeareth since the preaching of the gospel is an old and generall complaint of all godly ministers in all churches and in all tunes * Esay preached this in the church and of the whole churche and further that they brought for the rotten frute Dauid that the faithfull people were deminished out of the lād that there was none that did good no not one And diuers other of the Prophets haue made greuouser complaints and great charges against the people of God and yet were no Anabaptists nor in the way to Anabaptisme If there be none that eyther haue wrytten or spoken that the church of England is no more the true Churche of Christ then the papisticall churche then besides that there is no truthe in youre tongue there seemeth to be no shame in your forheade if there be any it standeth your good name in hand that you bring them out To the fourth If some of those whych fauor this cause haue ben ouercaryed in part to do things which might haue ben more cōueniently ordered it is against reason that you should therfore charge those which fauor thys cause that you oppugne You would thinke you had wrong if because some of those that fauor that which you fauor in this matter be either free wil men or hold consubstantiation in the Sacrament you shuld be chalenged as free will men or maintainers of consubstantiation If those metings whych they had were permitted vnto them by them that haue authoritie I see nothing why they may not seeke to serue God in puritie and les mixture of hurtfull ceremonies If they were not permitted yet your name of conuenticles whych agreed to the Anabaptists is too lighte and contemptuous to set forth those assemblies wherin I thinke you wil not deny but that the word of God and his sacraments were ministred take you heede that these so reprochfull speaches which you throw out against men reache not vnto God A softer word would haue better becommed you To the fifth I answere as vnto the last clause of the thirde article To the sixth We pretend it not but we propound it and herein we call God to witnes agaynst our owne soules To the seuenth If you do not these things which we say not we wil rather do thē with the Anabaptists then leaue them vndone with you Of our simple heart meaning in thē we haue before proteste◠In the meane season we wil paciently abide vntill the Lord bring our * rightuousnes in thys behalfe vnto light and our lust dealing as the none day Touching our sighing and seldome or neuer laughing you giue occasion after to speake of it vnto the which place I reserue the answer To the eight We are no Stoikes that we should not be touched with the feeling of our grefes if our complaintes be excessiue shewe them and we will abridge them What errors we defend and how you maintaine your part by the word of God it will appeare in the discourse of your boke To the ninthe Their finding fault wythout cause in the ceremonies of baptisme can not barre vs from finding fault where there is cause We allowe of the baptisme of children and hope throughe the goodnes of God that it shall be farre from vs euer to condemne it But to let your slaunderous tong go all the strings wherof ye seme to haue losed that it may the more frely be throwne out and walke against the innocent Where where is the modesty you require in other of not entring to iudge of things vnknowne which dare insinuate to the magistrate that it is lyke they will condemne childrens baptisme which doe baptise them preach they should he baptized and whych did neuer by sillable letter or countenaunce mislike of their baptisme To the. 10. 11. and. 12. I answer as vnto the fifth and for further answer I will refer the reader to those places where occasion shall be geuen to speake of these thyngs againe To the. 13. This is a braunch of the. 8. and added for nothing else but to make vp the tale To the. 14. We feare no shedding of bloud in her maiesties dayes for maintaining that whych we hope we shal be able to proue out of the word of God and wherin we agree with the best reformed churches but certaine of the things which we stād vpon are such as that if euery heare of our head were a life we ought to aforde them for the defence of them VVe bragge not of any the least abilitie of suffering but in the feare of God we hope of the assistance of God his holy spirite to abide whatsoeuer he shall thinke good to try vs with either for profession of thys or any other hys truth whatsoeuer To the. 15. VVe make no seperation from the church we go about to seperate all those thyngs that offend in the church to the end that we being all knit to the sincere truth of the gospell might afterwards in the same bond of truth be more nearely and closely ioyned together VVe endeuor that euery church hauing a lawfull pastor whych is able to instruct all myght be ranged to their proper churches wheras diuers onles they go to other then their owne parishes are like to heare few sermons in the yeare so farre are we from withdrawing men from their ordinary churches and pastors Let
many meete and where be the examples of the olde church which had besydes the temple at Ierusalem erected vppe synagogues in euery towne to heare the worde of God and mynister the cyrcumcysion what is become of the commaundement of our sauioure Christ whych * wylled his discyples that they should preache openly and vpon the house toppes that which they heard in the eare of hym and secreately and howe doe we obserue the example of our sauyour Christ who to delyuer hys doctryne from all suspytion of tumultes and other dysorders sayd that he preached openly in the temple and in the synagogues albeit the same were very daungerous vnto hym the example of the * Apostles that dyd the same For as for the tyme of persecution when the church dare not nor is not meete that it should shewe it selfe to the ennemy no not then is the word of God nor the sacraments priuately preached or ministred neyther yet ought to be For althoughe they be done in the house of priuate man yet because they are ought to be ministred in the presence of the congregation there is neyther priuate preaching nor priuate baptisme For like as where so euer the Queenes maiestie lyeth there is the Courte althoughe it be in a Gentleman hys house so wheresoeuer the churche meeteth that place is not to be holden priuate as touching the prayers preachings and sacraments that shal be there ministred So that I denye vnto you that the churche hathe power to ordaine at her pleasure whether preaching or ministring of sacramentes should be priuate or publicke when they ought not to be but where the church is and the church ought not to assemble if it be not letted by persecution but in open places And when it is driuen from them those places where it gathereth it selfe togither although they be otherwise priuate yet are they for the time that the churches doe there assemble and for respect of the worde and sacraments that are there ministred in the presence of the church publike places And so you see those whome you charge slaunderously wyth conuenticles are faine to glase vp the windowes that you open to secreate and priuate conuenticles The Answere from Nowe if either godly councels vnto I trust M. Caluins iudgement will weigh HEere are brought in Iustin Martyr Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian and councels as dumme persons in the stage only to make a shewe and so they go out of the stage without saying any thing And if they had had any thing to say in this cause for these matters in controuersye there is no doubt but M. Doctor would haue made them speake For when he placeth the greatest strength of hys cause in antiquitie he would not haue passed by Iustin Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian being so auncient and taken Augustin whych was a great time after them And if the godly councels coulde haue helped heere it is small wisedome to take Augustine and leaue them For I thinke he might haue learned that amongst the authorities of mē the credite of many is better then of one and that thys is a generall rule that as the iudgement of some notable personage is loked vnto in a matter of debate more then theirs of the common sorte so the iudgement of a councell where many learned men be gathered together caryeth more likelyhode of truthe wyth it then the iudgement of one man although it be but a prouinciall councell much more then if it be a generall and therfore you do your cause great iniurie if you could alledge them and do not Thys is once to be obserued of the reader throughout your whole boke that you haue well prouided that you would not be taken in the trip for misalledging the scriptures for that onles it be in one or two poynts we heare continually instead of Esay and Ieremy S. Paule and S. Peter and the rest of the Prophets and Apostles S. Augustin and S. Ambrose kai to en te phake myron Dionysius Areopagita Clement c. And therfore I can not tell wyth what face we can call the papistes from their antiquitie councels and fathers to the triall of the scriptures who in the controuersies whych rise amongst our selues flie so farre from them that it wanteth not much that they are not banished of your part from the deciding of all these controuersies And if thys be a sufficient proofe of things to say suche a Doctor sayde so suche a councell decreed so there is almost nothing so true but I can impugne nothing so false but I can make true And well assured I am that by their meanes the principall groundes of our faith may be shaken And therfore because you haue no proofe in the worde of God we comfort our selues assured that for so muche as the foundations of the Archbyshop and Lordship of Bishops and of other things which are in question be not in heauen that they wil fall and come to the ground from whence they were taken Nowe it is knowne they are from beneath and of the earthe and that they are of men and not of God The answearer goeth about to proue that they came yet out of good earthe and from good men whych if he had obtained yet he may well know that it is no good argument to proue that they are good For as the best earth bringeth forth weedes so do the best men bring forth lies and errors But let vs heare what is brought that if thys visarde and shewe of truthe be taken away all men may perceiue howe good occasion we haue to complaine and howe iust cause there is of reformation In the first place of S. Augustine there is nothing against any thing whych we hold for thys that the church may haue thyngs not expressed in the scripture is not againste that it oughte to haue nothing but that may be warranted by the scripture For they may be according to the scripture and by the scripture whych are not by plaine termes expressed in the scripture But against you it maketh muche ouerturneth all your building in this boke For if in those things whych are not expressed in the scripture that is to be obserued of the Church whych is the custome of the people of God and decree of oure forefathers then howe can these things be varyed according to time place persons whych you say should be when as that is to be retained which the people of God hath vsed the decrees of the forefathers haue ordained And thē also how can we do safelier then to folow the apostles customes and the churches in their time which we are sure are our for fathers the people of god Besides that how can we retaine the customes and constitutions of the papists in such things which were neither the people of God nor our forefathers I wil not enter now to discus whether it were wel done to fast in al places according to the custome of the place
of the house of the Lorde whych by his manifest commaundement ought to be done wyth all spede then besides that they be very vncunning builders whych can not mende the faultes wythout ouerthrow of all especially when as the fault is not in the foundation they must remembre that as the meane whych is vsed to gather the children of God is called a building so is it called a planting And therfore as dead twigs riotous and superfluous braunches or whatsoeuer hindreth the groweth of the vine tree may be cut of wythout roting vp the vine so the vnprofitable things of the church may be taken away without any ouerthrow of those things which are well established And seeing that Christ and Beliall can not agree it is straunge that the pure doctrine of the one the corruptions of the other should cleaue so fast togither that pure doctrine can not be wyth her safetie seuered from the corruptions when as they are rather like vnto that part of Daniels image which was compounded of clay and iron therfore could not cleaue or sticke one with an other It is further sayde that the setters forwarde of thys cause are contentious and in mouing questions giue occasion to the papists of slaundring the religion and to the weake of offence But if it be found to be both true which is propounded and a thing necessary about which we contende then hath thys accusation no grounde to stande on For peace is commended to vs with these conditions * if it be possible if it lye in vs Now it is not possible it lyeth not in vs to conceale the truth * we can do nothing agaynst it but for it It is a prophane saying of a prophane man that an vniust peace is better then a iust warre It is a dyuine saying of an Heathen man Agatheâ—d eris hede brotoisi It is good to contende for good thinges The papistes haue no matter of reioysing seeing they haue greater and sharper controuersies at home and seing thys tendeth both to to the further opening of theyr shame thrusting out of theyr remnantes which yet remayne among vs The weake may not be offended considering the euen in the church of God and among those of the church there hath bene as great varieties of iudgementes as these are For what waightier controuersyes can there be then whether we shall ryse agayne or no whether circumcision were necessary to be obserued of those which beleued And yet the first was amongst the church of the * Corinthes the other was first in * Ierusalem and Antioche and after in the churches of * Galatia and yet they the churches and that the true relygion which was there professed And it is to be remembred that these controuersyes for the most part are not betwene many For sondry of those thinges which are comprehended in the answere to the Admonition haue as I am perswaded few fauourers of those especially which are of any stayed or sounder iudgement in the scriptures and haue sene or red of the gouernment and order of other churches so that in deede the father of that answere excepted we haue thys controuersy oftentymes rather with the papistes then with those which professe the gospell as we do And whereas last of all it is sayde that thys procedeth of enuy of singularitie and of popularitie although these be no sufficient reasons agaynst the truth of the cause which is neyther enuyous singular nor popular and althoughe they be suche as myght be seuerally by great lykelyhodes and probalyties refuted yet because the knowledge of these thinges pertayneth only to God which is the searcher of the hart and raynes and for auoyding of too muche tediousnesse we will rest in his iudgement tary for the day wherein the secretes of hartes shall be made manyfest And yet all men do see how vniustly we be accused of singularity which propound nothing that the scriptures do not teache the wryters bothe olde and new for the most part affirme the examples of the primitiue churches and of those which are at these dayes confirme All these accusations as well agaynst the cause as the fauourers thereof albeit they be many and dyuers yet are they no other then which haue bene long sithens in the Prophets Apostles and our sauior Christes and now of late in our tymes obiected agaynst the trueth and the professors therof And therefore as the sunne of the truth then appeared brake through all those cloudes which rose agaynst it to stoppe the lyght of it so no doubt thys cause being of the same nature will haue the same effect And as all those slaunders could not bryng the truth in disgrace with those that loued it so the children of the truth through these vntrue reportes will neyther leaue the loue of thys cause which they haue already conceaued nor yet cease to enquire dyligently and to iudge indifferently of those surmises which are put vp agaynst it Moreouer seing that we haue once ouercomed all these lets and clymed ouer them when they were cast in our way to hynder vs from coming from the grosse darknes of popery vnto the gloryous lyght of the gospell there is no cause why now they should staye our course to further perfection considering that neyther the style is hygher nowe then it was before being the very selfe same obiections and in all thys tyme we ought so to haue growne in the knowledge of the truth that in stead of being then able to leape ouer a hedge we should now haue our feete so prepared by the gospell that they should be as the fecte of a hynde hable to surmount euen a wall if neede were The summe of all is that the cause may be looked vpon with a single eye without all miste of partialitie may be heard with an indifferent care without the waxe of preiudice the argumentes of both sides may be waighed not with the chaungeable waightes of custome of tyme of men which notwithstanding Popishe excepted shall be shewed to be more for the cause then agaynst it but with the iust balances of the incorruptible and vnchangeable worde of God. And I humbly beseeche the Lord to encrease in vs the spirite of knowledge and iudgement that we may discerne thinges which differ one from an other and that we may be syncere and wythout offence vntill the day of Christ The author to the reader I Am humbly to craue at thy hand gentill reader that thou wouldest vouchsafe dyligently and carefully to compare M. Doctors answer and my reply both that thou mayst the better vnderstand the truth of the cause and that the vntempered speches of hym especially that whyppeth other so sharply for them which I haue in a maner altogether passed by and hys lose conclusions which I haue to auoyde tedyousnes not so fully pursued may the better appeare Which thing as I craue to be done through the whole booke so chefely I desire it may
this that the church may ordaine certaine thyngs according to the word of God. But if this epistle and others of M. Bucers with his notes vpon the boke of Common prayer which are so often cited and certaine Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were neuer printed as I can not vnderstand they were then besides that you do vs iniurie whych go about to preiudice our cause by the testimonies of them which we can neither heare nor see being kept close in your study you also do your cause much more iniurie whilest you betray the pouerty and nakednes of it being faine to ransake rifie vp euery darke corner to finde some thing to couer it with Therefore it were good before you toke any benefite of them to let thē come forth and speake their owne testimonies in their owne language and ful out For now you geue men occasion to thinke that there are some other things in their Epistles whych you would be lothe the world should know for feare of fall of that which you would gladly keepe There is no man that fayth that it ought to be permitted to euery person in the church where he is minister to haue such order or discipline or to vse such seruice as he listeth no mā seeketh for it But to haue the order which God hath left in those things which the word precisely appoynteth and in other thyngs to vse that whych shall be according to the rules of S. Paule before recited agreed by the church and constrined by the Prince And whereas you haue euer hitherto geuen the ordering of these thyngs to the churche howe come you nowe to ascribe it to the Bishops you meane I am sure the Bishops as we call Bishops heere in England whereby you fall into the opinion of the papists vnwares which when they haue spoken many things of the churche magnifically at the last they bring it nowe to the Doctors of the church nowe to byshops As forme although I doute not but there be many good men of the Byshoppes and very learned also and therfore very meete to be admitted into that consultation wherin it shal be cōsidered what things are good in the church yet in respect of that office and calling of a bishop which they now exercise I thinke that euery godly learned minister pastor of the churche hath more interest and right in respect of his office to be at that consultation then any bishop or archbishop in the realme for as muche as he hath an ordinarie calling of God function appoynted in the scriptures which he exerciseth and the other hath not But how thys authoritie pertaining to the whole church of making of such orders may and ought to be called to a certaine number that confusion may be auoyded and wyth the consent also of the churches to auoyde tyrannie it shall appeare in a more proper place where we shall haue occasion to speake of the eldership or gouernment in euery churche and of the communion and societie or participation and entercommuning of the churches togither by councels and assemblies prouinciall or nationall Answere till the Admonition from the beginning of the 30. page VNto the places of Deuteronomic whych proue that nothyng oughte to be done in the churche but that whych God commaundeth and that nothyng should be added nor diminished First you answere that that was a precept geuen to the Iewes for that time whych had all things euen the least prescribed vnto them I see it is true whych is sayd that one absurditie graūted a hundred follow For to make good that things ought to be done besides the scripture and worde of God you are driuen to runne into parte of the error of the Manichees whych say that the olde Testament pertaineth not vnto vs nor bindeth not vs For what is it else then to say that these two places serued for the Iewes time and vnder the lawe For surely if these two places agree not vnto vs in time of the gospell I knowe none in all the olde Testament whych doe agree and I praye you what is heere sayde whych S. Iohn in the * Apocalipse saythe not where he shutteth vp the newe Testament in thys sorte I protest vnto euery mā whych heareth the prophecie of thys boke that whosoeuer addeth any thing to it the Lorde shall adde vnto him the plagues whych are wrytten in it and whosoeuer taketh away any thing from it the Lord shall take away his portion out of the boke of life and out of the things that are wrytten in it which admonition if you say pertaineth to that boke of the Apocalipse only yet you must remember that the same may be as truely sayd of any other boke of the scripture Then you are driuen to saye that the Iewes vnder the lawe had a more certaine direction and consequently a readyer waye then we haue in the time of the gospell of the whych time the Prophet sayeth that then a man shoulde not teache his neighbor they shal be so taught of God as if he should say that they that liue vnder the gospel should be all in comparison of that whych were vnder the lawe Doctors And Esay sayth that in the dayes of the gospell the people shall not stande in the outward courtes but he will bring them into the sanctuarie that is to say that they shoulde be all for their knowledge as learned as the Leuites and Priestes whych only had entraunce into it Now if the Iewes had precepts of euery the least action whych told them precisely how they should walke how is not their case in that poynt better then oures whych because we haue in many things but generall rules are to seeke oftentimes what is the will of God whych we should follow But let vs examine their lawes and compare them with oures in the matters pertaining to the church for whereas the question is of the gouernment of the church it is very impertinent that you speake of the iudicialies as though you had not yet learned to distinguishe betweene the Church and common wealth To the ordering and gouerning of the church they had only the moral and ceremoniall law we haue the same morall that they had what speciall direction therfore they enioy by the benefite of that we haue We haue no ceremonies but two the ceremonies or sacraments of Baptisme and of the Lords supper we haue as certaine a direction to celebrate them as they had to celebrate their ceremonies and fewer and les difficulties can rise of oures then of theirs and we haue more plaine and expres doctrine to decide our cōtrouersies then they had for theirs What houre had they for their ordinarie and daily sacrifices was it not left to the order of the church what places were apointed in their seuerall dwellings to heare the woorde of God preached continually when they came not to Ierusalem the word was commaunded to be preached but no mention made what
to be dennes of loyterors and idle persones whylest there are nouryshed there some whych serue for no profitable vse in the church their offyces being suche as bryng no commoditye but rather hurte of whych numbre certen are whych the Admonition speaketh of in the. 224. page some other which hauing charges in other places vnder the coloure of their prebendes there absent them selues from them and that whych they spoyle and rauen in other places there they spend and make good cheare wyth and therfore not wythout good cause called dennes Finally there being nothyng there whych might not be much better applied and to the greater commodity of the churche whylest they myght be turned into colledges where yong men myght be brought vp in good learning made fitte for the seruice of the church and common wealthe the vniuersities being not able to receyue that numbre of scholers wherwyth their neede may be supplyed And where M. Doctor sayth that that whych is spoken of the Queenes maiestyes chappell is worthy rather to be punyshed then confuted if so be that these be abuses the example of them in her maiesties chappell can not be but most daungerous whych wyth all humble submission and reuerence I beseeche her maiesty duely to consider And as for the reasons which M. doctor bringeth to establishe them in the 225. page as that they are necessary whych he doth barely say and that s Aug. alloweth of a Deane and that the authors of the Admonition are instruments of those whych desire the spoile of them and that a man may as well speake against vniuersities colledges as against them I haue answeared before sauing that it is to be feared that colledges in vniuersities if M. doctor may worke y which he goeth about wil shortly be in little better case then those cathedral churches whych not only by hys own example but wyth might and maine and al endeuor possyble goeth about to fill and fraught them wyth Non residences and suche as haue charges of churches in other places whych do no good in the vniuersitye and partly are such as can do none only are pernicious examples of riotous feasting and making greate cheare wyth the prayes and spoyles whych they bryng out of the country to the great hurt of the vniuersity presently and vtter ruine of it hereafter onles spedy remedy be therfore prouided And wher he sayth it is not material although these deanes vicedeanes canons peticanōs prebēdaries c. come from the pope it is as if he shoulde saye that it skilleth not although they come out of the bottomles pit For whatsoeuer commeth from the Pope which is Antichrist commeth first from the deuill and where he addeth thys condition if it be good c. in deede if of the egges of a cockatrice can be made holesome meate to feede with or of a spiders webbe any cloth to couer with all then also may the things that come from the Pope and the Deuill be good profitable and necessary vnto the church And where he sayeth that collegiate churches are of great auncientie he proueth not the auncientie of the cathedrall churches onles he proue that cathedrall and collegiate be all one But I will not sticke wyth hym for so small a matter if our controuersy were of the names of these churches and not of the matter I could be content to graunt hys cause in this poynt as good as antiquitie without the word of God which is nothing but rottennes could make it But for so much as those auncient collegiate churches were no more lyke vnto these which we haue now then things most vnlyke our cathedrall churches haue not so much as thys olde worne cloke of antiquity to hide theyr nakednes and to keepe out the shoure For the collegiate churches in times past were a senate Ecclesiasticall standing of godly learned mynisters elders which gouerned and watched ouer that flocke which was in the citie or towne where suche churches were and for that in suche great cities and townes commonly there were the most learned pastors and auncientes therefore the townes and villages rounde about in hard and difficult causes came and had their resolutions of theyr doubtes at theyr handes euen as also the Lord commaunded in Deuteronomie that when there was any great matter in the countrey which the Leuites in matters pertayning to God and the Iudges in matters pertayning to the common wealth could not discusse that then they should come to Ierusalem where there was a great numbre of Priestes Leuites and learned Iudges of whome they should haue their questions dissolued and thys was the first vse of collegiate churches Afterward the honor which the smaller churches gaue vnto them in asking them counsell they tooke vnto them selues and that which they had by the curtesy and good will proceeding of a reuerent estimation of them they dyd not only take vnto them of right but also possessed them of all authority of hearing and determyning any matters at all And in the ende they came to thys which they are now which is a company that haue strange names and strange offyces vnhearde of of all the purer churches of whome the greatest good that wee can hope of is that they doe no harme For although there be dyuers which doe good yet in respect that they bee Deanes Prebendaries Canons Petycanons c. for my part I see no profite but hurte come to the church by them And where hee sayeth they are rewardes of learning in deede then they should be if they were conuerted vnto the mayntenance and bringing vp of scholers where now for the most part they serue for fat morsels to fill if it might be the gredy appetites of those which otherwyse haue enough to lyue with and for holes and dennes to keepe them in which eyther are vnworthy to be kept at the charge of the church or else whose presence is necessary and duetifull in other places and for the most part vnprofitable there Last of all whereas M. Doctor sayeth that we haue not to follow other churches but rather other churches to follow vs I haue answeared before thys only I adde y they were not counted only false Prophets which taught corrupt doctryne but those which made the people of God beleeue that they were happy when they were not and that their estate was very good when it was corrupt Of the which kynde of false prophecie Ieremy especially doth complayne And therefore onles M. Doctor amend hys speach leaue thys crying peace peace all is wel when there are so many things out of order and that not by the iudgement of the admonition fauorers therof only but euē of al which are not willingly blind I say if he do not amend these speches the crime of false prophesy will sit closer vnto him thē he shal be euer able to shake of in the terrible day of the lord The next section I haue answeared in the treatise
be done in the beginning where the reader shall not be able so well to vnderstand what is sayde of me vnlesse he haue M. D. booke before hym The cause of which diuersitie rose of that that I first purposed to set downe his answer before my reply as he dyd the admonition before hys answer But afterward considering that hys booke being already in the handes of men it would be double charges to bye it agayne and especially weighing with my selfe that through the slownes of the prynt for want of helpe the reply by that meanes should come forth later then was conuenient for although he myght commodyously bryng in the admonition being short yet the same coulde not be done in his booke swellyng in that sort which it doth I say these thinges consydered I changed my mynde and haue therfore set downe the causes which moued me so to doe because I know that those if any be which haue determyned to contynue theyr foreiudged opynions agaynst the cause whatsoeuer be alledged wyll hereupon take occasion to surmyse that I haue left out hys answere to the end that it myght the lesse appeare wherein I haue passed ouer any weyght of hys reasons where as had it not bene for these causes which I haue before aledged my earnest desire was to haue set hys answere before my reply whereof I call the Lord to wytnesse whom I know to be a sharpe iudge agaynst those which shall abuse hys holy name to any vntruth ¶ An answeare to the whole Epistle to the Church WHat causes eyther pulled you forward or thrust you backward to wryte or not to wryte and how in thys dispute wyth your selfe in the end you were resolued to write in thys sort I leaue it vnto the iudgement of the Lord who only knoweth the secretes of the heart and will in his good time vnseale them But if there be any place of coniecture the hatred of contention whych you set downe as the first and principall cause that beat you backe from wryting might well haue ben put as the last and least or rather none at all For if peace had bene so precious vnto you as you pretend you woulde not haue brought so many hard wordes bitter reproches enemylike speaches as it were stickes and coales to double and treble the heat of contention If the sharpnes of the Admonition misliked you and you thinke they outreached in some vehemency of words how could you more effectually haue cōfuted that then to haue in a quiet and milde spirite set them in the way which in your opinion had left it now in words condenming it and approuing it in your dedes I wil not say that you do not so much mislike thys sharpness as you are sory that you are preuented and are not the first in it But this I may well say vnto you whych he sayd Quid verba audiam cum facta videam what should I heare words when I see the dedes In the fourth reason wherby you were discouraged to wryte if by backbiters and vnlearned tongs viperous kinde of men not able to iudge of controuersies caryed away wyth affections and blinde zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erronious opinions you meane all those that thinke not as you do in these matters I answere for my selfe and for as many as I know of them that they are they which first desire so it be truely to heare and speak◠all good of you But if that be not through your perseuerance in the maintenaunce of the corruptions of this church which you should helpe to purge then the same are they that desire that both the euill which you haue done and that which you haue yet in your hart to doe may be knowen to the lesse discredite of the truth and sinceritie which you with such might and mayne doe striue agaynst Touching our vnlearned tongues we had rather a great deale they were vnlearned then they should be as theirs * which haue taught their tunges to speake falsly And how vnlearned so euer you would make the world beleue that we and our tunges be I hope through the goodnesse of God they shall be learned enough to defend the truthe agaynst all the learning that you shall be able to assault it with If those be the * generation of Christ which you call viperous kynde of men know you that you haue not opened your mouth against earth but you haue set it agaynst heauen for all indifferent iudgement it will easely perceiue that you are as far from the spirite of * Iohn Baptist as you are nere to hys maner of speche Which you vse whether it be affection or blind zeale that we follow and are driuen by it will then appeare when the reasons of both sides being layde out shall be wayed indifferently Whereas you say that your duetie towards God and the Queene her maiesty moued you to take thys laboure in hande it will fall out vppon the discourse that as you haue not serued the Lord God in thys enterprise and worke of youres so haue you done nothing lesse then any godly duetie which you owe vnto her Maiestie so that the best that can be thought of you herein is that wherein an euill matter you coulde yelde no duetie yet now you haue done that which you thought a duetie which iudgeinent we will so long keepe of you vntill you shall by oppugning of a knowen truth declare the contrary which we hope will not be What truth it is that we impugne and you defend let it in the name of God appeare by our seuerall proufes and answeares of both sides And as for the slaunderous surmises whereby in your third and last consideration you set the Papistes of the one side of vs and the Anabaptistes of the other and vs in the middest reaching out our handes as it were to them both first it ought not to be strange vnto vs miserable sinners seeing that the Lord hym selfe without all sinne was placed in the middest of two greuous malefactors as though he had bene worse then they both Then for answere of those slaunderous speaches I will referre the Reader to those places where these generall charges are geuen out in more particular manner An answere to that which is called a briefe examination of the reasons vsed in the Admonition to the Parliament IF the scriptures had bene applyed to the mayntenaunce of the abhomination of the masse and some other of the grossest of antichristianitie you could haue sayd no more nor vsed vehementer speache then thys that they are most vntollerably abused and vnlearnedly applyed And then where is charitie which couereth the multitude of faultes especially in brethren when you do not only not couer them but also take away their garmentes whereby they are couered I will not deny but that there be some few places quoted whych might haue bene spared but there are a great number which M. Doctor tosseth throweth away
him that inueigheth against any pastor without good cause beare the punishment as for inueighing against heaping of liuing vpon liuing and ioyning steeple to steeple and non residence and suche ambition and tiranny as beareth the sway in diuers Ecclesiasticall persons if the price of the pacification be the offending of the Lorde it is better you be displeased then God be offended To the. 16. VVe stay our selues wythin the bonds of the word of God we profes our selues to be of the nombre of those whych should * grow in knowledge as we do in age and whych labor that the image of God may be daily renewed in vs not only in holynes of life but also in * knowledge of the truthe of God and yet I know no question moued which hath not ben many yeares before in other churches reformed holden as truthe and therefore practised and in our churche also haue bene some yeares debated To the. 17. If we defende no falshoode or inconuenient thing we can not be counted stubborne or wilfull whereof we offer to be tried by the indifferent reader For waiwardnes and inhumanitie we thincke it a fault as we esteme godly societie and affabilitie to be commendable and what is our behauior herein we likewise referre to their iudgementes wyth whome we are conuersant and haue to doe wyth being misseiudged and vntruly condemned of you we iudge nor condemne no man their vices we condemne so farre forth as the listes of our vocation doe permit vs. To the. 18. We allowe of common weales as without which the church can not long continue we speake not against ciuill gouernment nor yet against ecclesiastical further then the same is an enemy to the gouernment that God hath instituted To the. 19. If we geue honor and reuerence to none let vs not only haue none again but let vs be had as those that are vnworthy to liue amongst men I feare there be of those whych are your fauourers Ecclesiasticall persons that if they shuld meete wyth my Lord Mayor of London would straine curtesye whether he or they should put of the cap first We geue the titles of Maiestie to the Queene our soueraigne of grace to Duke and Duches of honor to those whych are in honoure and so to euery one according to their estate If we misse it is not because we are not willing but because we knowe not alwayes what pertaineth vnto them and then our faulte is pardonable For answearing churlishly it is answeared before in the seuenth Article To the. 20. VVith acknowledging of our manifold wants and ignorances we dout not also to take vpon vs with thanks geuing that knowledge which God hath geuen to euery of vs according to the measure of fayth we seke not to please oure selues but the Lord and our brethren yea all men in that whych is good VVe reuerence other mens gifts so as we thinke the contempt of them redoundeth to the giuer Therfore although the common infection be in vs yet we hope pride doth not * raigne in our mortall bodyes To the. 21. VVe hold that it is no ministers part to chuse his owne place where he will preach but to tary vntill he be chosen of others Likewyse that he insinuate not hym selfe but abide a lawfull calling and therfore thys can not agree to vs but to those rather whych content themselues wyth a rouing and wandering mynistery and defend the ministers owne presenting and offering him selfe or euer he be called To the. 22. and. 23. I answer as to the fifthe and touching the. 23. refer the reader to a further answer in that place where occasion is offered to speake of it againe To the. 24. So farre forth as we may for the infirmities wherwyth we are enclosed we endeuor to adorne the doctrine of the gospell whych we profes we seeke not the admiration of men if God do geue that we haue honest report we thyncke we ought to maintaine that to the glory of God and aduancement of the gospel what is our straightnes of life any other then is required in all christians we bryng in I am sure no Monachisme or Anchorisme we eate and drynke as other men we liue as other men we are apparelled as other men we lye as other men we vse those honest recreations that other men doe and we thincke there is no good thing or commodity of life in the world but that in sobriety we may be partakers of so farre as our degree and calling will suffer vs as God maketh vs able to haue it For the hipocrisy that you so often charge vs wyth the day shall try it If any man ioyne wych vs with minde to contende it is against our will notwithstanding we knowe none and what great stirrers and contenders they be whych fauor thys cause let all men iudge To the two next sections Do you thincke to mocke the worlde so that when you haue so vniustly so hainously accused you may wipe your mouth and say as you did before that you will not accuse any and as now that you will leaue the application Is not this to accuse to say that the authors of the Admonition doe almost plainly professe Anabaptisme is not thys to apply to say that they agree wyth the Anabaptists in all the fornamed practises and qualities You would faine strike vs but you would do it in the night when no man should see you and yet if you haue to do against Anabaptists you neede not feare to proclaime your warre against them You haue a glorious cause you shall haue a certaine victorye I dare promisse you that you shall haue all the estates and orders of this realme to clappe their handes and sing your epinicia and triumphant songs But that you would conuey your sting so priuely and hissingly as the Adder doth it carieth with it a suspition of an euill conscience and of a worse cause then you make the world beleeue you haue From moreouer c. vnto To conclude Now you cary vs from the Anabaptists in Europe vnto the Donatists in Affrike you wil paint vs with their coloures but you want the oyle of truth or likelyhode of truth to cause your colours to cleaue to endure The Lord be praised that your breath although it be very ranke yet it is not so strong that it is able either to turn vs or chaunge vs into what formes it pleaseth you I shal desire the reader to loke Theod. lib. 4. De fabulis haereticorum and Augustine ad quod vult Deum and in his first and second bokes against Petilians letters where he shall finde of these heretikes that by comparing thē wyth these to whom M. Doctor likeneth thē the smoke of this accusation might the better appeare for these slanders are not worth the answering To this diuision from the churches and to your supposed conuenticles I haue answeared They taught that there were no true churches but in Affrica
establishment of the common wealth must be pretēded What haue you forgotten that whych you sayd in the beginning that you accused none but suspected certaine woulde you haue the sword to be drawne vpon your suspitions But now you see that they whō you haue accused are nothing like eyther Anabaptists Donatists or Papists and your selfe most vnlike vnto hym that you profes to be and now you see that all your slaunders are quēched by the innocencye as it were by water of those men whom you so hainously accuse you are to be put in minde of the law of God whych decreeth that he whych accuseth an other if he proue it not shall suffer the punishment which he should haue done agaynst whom the accusation had ben iustly proued The Romaines did nourish in Capitolio certain dogs and geese whych by their barking and gagling should geue warning in the night of theeues that entred in but if they cried in the day time when there was no suspition and when men came in to worship then their legs were broken because they cried when there was no cause If therfore he haue accused iustly then he is worthy to haue hys diet allowed hym of the commō charges But if otherwise we desire not that his legs may be broken as theirs were But thys we humbly craue that if thys oure answer doe not sufficiently purge vs that we may be sifted and searched nearer that if we nourishe any suche monstrnous opinions as are surmised we may haue the reward of them if we do not then at the least we may haue the good abearing against such slaunderous tongues seeing that God hath not only committed vnto the magistrate the safetye of our goods and life but also the preseruation of our honest reporte ¶ The Replie vnto the Answere of the Preface IT may be sayde vnto you that whych Aristotle sayde of a certaine Philosopher that he knewe not his owne voice For if that you had remembred that which you do so often promis that you will not answer words but matter the Printer should not haue gained so much men should not haue bestowed so much money of a thing not of so great value nor that which is more the world shuld not be burdened wyth vnprofitable writings For how often tunninges out haue you to drawe the authors of the Admonition into hatred by inucighing bitterly agaynst their vnlearnednes maliciousnesse c. as it pleaseth you to terme it so that if there were any excesse of speache in them you haue payed it agayne with measure pressed downe running ouer How often charge you them with pride arrogancie men that confesse once or twyse of them selues their want of skill and which professe nothing of them selues but only a bare and naked knowledge of the truth which may be done with modesty euen of them which haue no learning And yet those that know them know that they are neyther voyde of the knowledge of the tongues nor of the liberall Artes albeit they do not make so many wordes of it as you * Salomon sayth that he that is despised and hath but one seruaunt is better then he which magnifyeth and setteth out him selfe and yet wanteth breade Whereby he meaneth that the man that hath but a little and caryeth hys countenaunce accordingly is much more to be estemed then he which beareth a great port and hath not to support it These brethren haue not vndertaken the knowledge of Logike Philosophie and other schoole learning whereof notwithstanding they are not destitute you in so often reproching them with the ignoraunce of them would make vs beleeue that you are so notable a Logician Philosopher as if Logike Philosophie had bene borne with you should dye with you when as it may appeare partly by that which hath bene spoken and partly by those things that wil fall out hereafter that you are better acquainted with the names of Logike and Philosophie then with any sounde or substantiall knowledge of them But let that be the vniuersities iudgement where you haue bene brought vp and are best knowne To returne to your vnprofitable excursions how oftentimes in your boke do you pull at the magistrates sworde and what sworde you would haue I leaue to the consideration of all men seing you are not satisfied with their imprisonment whereuppon also doth ensue the expence of that which they haue What matter is in all these that bringeth any helpe to the decision of these causes that are in question betwene vs how many leaues haue you wasted in confuting of the quotations which you say are vaine foolish vnlearned and to no purpose of that for which they are alleaged And if they be so where learned you to spend so much time about them Dyd you neuer learne that spoude ta me spoudes axia elegchein tôn atopôn esti to confute trifeling things seriously is a poynt of those which haue no iudgement to know what is meete for the tyme and place and other such circumstances If I should of the other side nowe go aboute to maintayne euery place to be not vnfitly quoted vnto that ende wherefore it is alleadged and shew how vniust your reprehensions are and how small cause you haue to leade them oftentimes so gloriously in triumph as you do which I assure you I could do in the most places As what could be more fitly alleaged to induce to reade the booke then that they should * try all things what more fitly to holde men from rashe condemning of things then that they shuld be * slow to speake what more fitly to moue that they should not misselike of the goodnes of the cause for the simplicitie or base degree of them that defend it then that we * should not haue the fayth of our Lord Iesus Christ in respect of persons and what more vniustly done then that you should whippe them for the printers faulte in putting one place for an other If I say I should thus go about to make good euery place how euill should I deserue either of learning or of the truth it selfe in blotting of much paper whereby no profit would come to the reader And if the dayes of a man were as many as the dayes of an Oke I would neither willingly trouble nor be troubled with such strife of wordes Seeing therefore God hath shut vs in so narow termes me thinke men should haue conscience of pestoring the world with such vnprofitable treatises Therefore all these and whatsoeuer else wandering words I shall meete with in this booke I meane by God his grace as dead things and nothing worth to bury with silence and will answere to those things which touch the matters that lye in controuersie betwene vs And as for the vnlearnednes blind zeale malice intolerable pride contempt of al good orders and twentie such more things wherwith M. Doctor chargeth vs if our life cōuersation doth not confute thē sufficiently our words
experience teacheth it you neede not make it so strange as though you knew not what they meant To the next section beginning in the. 38. page WHat ought to be generall if thys ought not to put the minister that hathe bene an idolater from hys mynisterie is it not a commaūdement of God and geuen not of one Leuite or two but of all those that went backe not at one tyme but at others also when the like occasion was geuen as appeareth in the booke of Kings where all the priestes of the Lord that had sacrificed in the high places were not suffered to come to the altare in Ierusalem Doth not S. Paul make smaller causes of deposing from the mynistery then idolatrie for after he hath described what manner of men the ministers should be and deacons he addeth And being tryed let them execute their functions as long as they remayne blamelesse I thinke if so be a man had bene knowne to be an adulterer although he repented him yet none that is well aduised would take him into the ministerie For if S. Paul reiect him that had ij wyues at once which was a thing that the Iewes and Gentiles thought lawfull and that was common amongst them and had preuayled throughout all the world how much les would he suffer any to be admitted to the ministerie which should be an adulterer and haue an other mans wyfe which is condemned of all that professe the name of Christ and which is not so generall a mischeefe as that was Or would he suffer him to abyde in the ministerie which should commit such wickednes during his function lykewyse of a murtherer Now the sinne of Idolatry is greater more detestable then any of them in as much as pertayning to the first table it immediatly stayneth Gods honor and breaketh duetie to him vnto whom we more owe it without all comparison then to any mortall man And if S. Paul in the choyse of the widow to attende vpon the sicke of the church which was the lowest office in the church requireth not only such a one as is at the time of the choise honest and holy but such a one as hath led her whole life in all good workes and with commendation how much more is that to be obserued in the minister or byshop of the church that he be not only at the tyme of his choyse but all other times before such a one as hath lyued without any notable and open offence of those amongst whome he had his conuersation If I should stand with you whether Peter his forswearing that he knew not Christ were a greater fault then to go from the gospell to idolatrie and there in for some long space to continue as the Leuites dyd I shoulde trouble you For if a man sodenly and at a push for feare and to saue his life say and sweare he is no christian and the same day repent him of hys fault although it be a great and haynous cryme yet it seemeth not to be so great as his is which not only denyeth Christ in words but doth it also in deedes and worshippeth Antichrist and continueth in that worship not a day but moneths and yeares But I wil answere you that euen as our sauiour Christ called S. Paule in the heate of his persecution whē he was a blasphemer vnto the Apostleship so he hauing the law in his owne handes and making no lawes for him selfe but for vs might call S. Peter also to that function which had thrise denyed him But as it is not lawfull for vs to follow the example of Christ in calling of Paul by admitting those which are new conuerted hauing a contrary precept geuen that no * new plant or greene christian should be taken to the mynisterie So is it not lawfull to follow that example of our sauiour Christ the contrary being commaunded as I haue before alledged For albeit the examples of our sauiour Christ be to be followed of vs yet if there be commaundementes generall to the contrary then we must know that it is our partes to walke in the broade and beaten way as it were the common caussie of the commaundement rather then an outpathe of the example I know Ambrose was taken newly from Paganisme to be bishop of Millaine for the great estimatiō credite he had amongst the people but besides that I haue shewed that suche thinges are vnlawfull being forbidden The errors and corrupt expounding of scriptures which are founde in his workes declare that it had bene more safe for the churche if by studie of the scriptures he hadde first bene a scholer of dyuinitie or euer he hadde beene made doctor There may be more examples shewed out of that which you call the prymitiue churche to the contrary of that which you say For when they vsed often tymes agaynste those that hadde so falne suche seueritie in deede extreme and excessiue that they were neuer after vntill their deathes admitted to the Lordes table I leaue to you to thinke whether they woulde then suffer any suche to execute the function of the ministerie Besides that S. Cyprian hath also a speciall treatise of thys that those that haue sacrificed to idolles should not be permitted any more to minister in the church But you aske what they say to M. Luther Bucer Crannier Latimer Ridley I pray you when dyd these excellent personages euer slide from the gospell vnto idolatrie which of them dyd euer say Masse after God had opened them the truth what hath so blynded you that you can not distinguishe and put a difference betweene one that hauing bene nousled from hys youthe vp in idolatrie commeth afterwardes out of it and betweene hym which hauing knowledge of the gospell afterward departeth from it and of such is the place of Ezechiel of such I say as haue gone backe and fallen away I know none that haue beene preachers of the gospell and after in the time of Queene Mary malsemongers which now are zealous godly learned preachers and if there be any suche I thincke for offence sake the Church might better be without them then haue them You say God in that place sheweth how greuous a sinne idolatrie is in the priestes especially And is it not now more greuous in the mynister of the gospell whose function is more precious and knowledge greater And if the sinne be greater should it haue now a lesse punishment then it had then how shall the fault be esteemed great or little but by the greatnes or smalnesse of the punishment you sayde before the places of Deuteronomie touching adding and diminishing nothing from that which the Lord commaundeth were for the Iewes and are not for our times And thys commaundement of God in Ezechiel you say serued for that time and not for oures You worke a sure way which to mayntayne your corruptions deny the scripture which speaketh agaynst them to be vnderstanded of those which be in our time
For if it be false as it is most false then there is no difference heere betwene the Apostles times and oures Doth not the whole course of the scriptures declare and hath it not bene proued that there was none that tooke vppon hym the ministerie in the churche but by lawfull calling what is thys but to cast dust and dirte of the fairest and beautifullest image that euer was to make a smokie disfigured euill proportioned image to seeme beautifull to ouerthrow the Apostles buildings of golde and siluer and precious stones to make a cottage of wode straw and stubble to haue some estymation which could haue none the other standing For in effecte so you doe when to vpholde a corrupte vse that came in by the tyrannie of the pope you goe about to discredite the orders and institutions which were vsed in the Apostles times and that with such manyfest vntruthes To the next section in the. 45. page Musculus also c. THe place is too common which you assigne you had I am sure the booke before you you might haue tolde where the place was and in what title But that place of Musculus in the title of the magistrate is answered by hym selfe in the same booke where he entreateth of the election of the ministers For going about as it seemeth to satisfie some of their ministers which were brought in doubt of their calling because they were not chosen by their churches speaking of the vse of the church in chusing their minister he sayth thus First it must be playnly cōfessed that the ministers were in times past chosen by consent of the people and ordayned and confirmed of the semores Secondarily that that forme of election was Apostolicall and lawfull Thirdly that it was conformable to the libertie of the churche and that thrusting the pastor vpon the church not being chosen of it doth agree to a church that is not free but subiect to bondage Fourthly that thys fourme of choise by the church maketh much bothe to that that the minister may gouerne hys flocke with a good conscience as also that the people may yeelde them selues to be eastyer ruled then when one commeth agaynst their willes vnto them And to conclude all these he sayeth that they are altogether certayne and such as can not be denyed After he sayth that the corrupt estate of the churche and religion driueth to alter this order and to call the election to certayne learned men which shoulde after be confirmed of the Prince And that it may yet more clearely appeare that hys iudgement is nothing lesse then to confirme thys election he setteth downe their election in Bernland which he approueth and laboureth to make good as one which although it doth not fully agree with the election of the prymitine churche yet commeth very neare vnto it As that not one man but all the ministers in the citie of Berne doe chuse a pastor when there is any place voyde Afterward he is sent to the Senate from the which if he be doubted of he is sent agayne to the ministers to be examined and then if they fynde him meete he is confirmed of the Senate which standeth of some number of the people and by the most part of their voyces By these things it appeareth that this election of the minister by the people is lawfull and Apostolike and confessed also by him that those that are otherwise bring with them subiection vnto the church and seruitude and cary a note and marke of corruption of religion Last of all that he goeth about to defende the election vsed in the churches where he was minister by this that it approched vnto the election in the primitiue Churche Nowe what cause there may bee that we should bring the church into bondage or take away that order wherby both the mynister may be better assured of hys calling and the people may the willinglyer submit them selues vnto their pastoures and gouernoures or what cause to depart from the Apostolike forme of the choise of the pastor being lawfull I confesse I know not and would be glad to learne To assigne the cause hereof vnto the christian magistrate to say that these things can not be had vnder hym as you vnder maister Muscuius name doe affirme is to doe great iniurie vnto the office of the magistrate which abridgeth not the liberty of the churche but defendeth it dimmisheth not the pastor his assurance of his calling but rather encreaseth it by establishing the ordinary callings only which in the time of persecution sometimes are not so ordinary withdraweth not the obediēce of the people from the pastor but vrgeth it where it is not constrayneth it wher it is not volūtary And seeing that also Musculus sayth that these forced elections are remedies for corruption of relygion and disordered states what greater dishonoure can there be done vnto the holye institution of God in the ciuile gouernoure then to say that these forced elections without the consent of the people must be where there is a christian Magistrate as thoughe there coulde be no pure religion vnder him when as in deede it may be easely vnder him pure which can hardly and with great daunger be pure without him And when as it is sayd that the churches consent should be had in the election of the minister we doe not denye the confirmation of the elections vnto the godly ciuill magistrate and the disanulling of them if the church in chusing and the ministers in directing shall take any vnfitte man so that yet he doe not take away the libertie from the church of chusing a more conuenient man. So that you see that by Musculus your witnesse reasons this enforced election without the consent of the people is but corrupt and so ought not to be in the churche And that although it hath bene borne withall yet it must be spoken agaynst and the lawfull forme of election laboured for of all those that loue the truth and the sinceritie therof To the next section in the. 46. page NOw you would proue that thys election of ministers by one man was in the Apostles time But you haue forgotten your selfe which sayde a little before that this election by the church was not only in the Apostles times but also in the tyme of Cyprian now you say otherwise And if the election of the ministery by the church agree so wel with the time of persecution and when there is no christian Magistrate how commeth it to passe that in those dayes when persecution was so hotte and there were no such Magistrates that S. Paule would haue the election by one man and not by the church Besydes that if this be S. Paule hys commaundement that the byshop should only chuse the minister why doe you make it an indifferent thing and a thing in the power of the church to be varyed by times for this is a flarte commaundement Thus you see you throwe downe with one
seuered from other men by any note of apparell You say you knowe that the cheefe notes of a minister are doctrine and learning if you meane that the distinction of apparell must supply the rest and that that also hath some force to commend their ministery the prophets and apostles of our sauior Christe left vs no perfect paterne of a minister nor no sufficient glas to dres him by wherof the moste parte neuer vsed any suche seuerall apparell and none of them haue left any commaundement of it For want of store and to make a long boke heere is S. Iohns miter rehearsed thrise in one leafe to the same purpose and in the same wordes And because it was not enough that M. Bullinger and M. Martyr should speake of them you haue preuented them both least you shuld haue semed to haue brought nothing If this be not Coleworts twise sodden I can not tell what is You aske whether the christian magistrate may enioyne a seuerall kinde of apparell to the ministers Either the cause is too weake whych you defende or else it hath gotten an euill patron whych would so gladly shift it and chaunge it with an other For this is an other question which you speake of For although that be graunted vnto you whych you demaunde yet you can not conclude your cause For all be it the magistrate may commaunde a seuerall apparell yet it foloweth not that he may commaund this kinde of popishe apparell and therefore what manner of argument is this of youres the magistrate maye commaunde a seuerall apparell therfore he may commaunde this The colledge walles will tell you that a man can not conclude from the whole to the parte affirmatiuely So you see I might let you fish and catch nothing but I am neyther afrayde nor ashamed to tell you the truth of that you aske so farreforth at least as I am perswaded I thincke therefore it may be such a kinde of apparell as the magistrate commaunding it the minister may refuse it and such it may be as he may not refuse it But whatsoeuer apparell it be this commaundement can not be without some iniury done to the minister For seeing that the magistrate doth allow of him as of a wise learned and discrete man and trusteth him with the gouernement of his people in matters betwene God and them it were somewhat harde not to trust him with the appoynting of his owne apparell and he is probably to be supposed that he hath discretion to weare his owne geare comely and in order that is able to teach others how they should weare theirs and that he should be able to doe that by his wisdome and learning that others do without learning and great store of wisedome that he should keepe order and decencie in apparel which hath learned in the schole of Christ which they doe that had neuer other scholemaster then common sense and reason And if any minister be founde to fault in going either dissolutely or to exquisitely and delicately then the Magistrate may punishe him according to the disorder wherein he faulteth And whereas you would proue that it may be done with the ministers as it is done with Iudges sergeants Aldermen and Sheriffes the case is not like For as for these which be in office their robes and gownes may as their maces swordes somewhat helpe to set forth the maiestie and moderate pompe which is meete for the offices of iustice which they execute and consequently to helpe to strike a profitable feare into their heartes which are vnderneath them which hath nor can haue no place in the minister whose authoritie and power as it is not outwarde so can it not nor ought not to borow any credite of these externall shewes And the Magistrate or the Citie may seeke some honor of the citizens mustering as it were by numbers in one liuerie which ought not to be loked for at the ministers hand because he honoureth and serueth the magistrate an other way nor can not also considering that they are scattered through all the land in euery towne one or not so many as being put in one liuery would make any great shew to the honor commendation of the towne or citie where they remaine And so you see your question answered whereby appeareth they are subiectes as other are and to obay also sometimes where the commaundement is not geuen vpon good grounds The place of Theodoret cited of M. Bullinger maketh mention of a golden cope and that vsed by byshops of Ierusalem and solde by Cyrill a good bishop whereby he declared sufficiently his misliking of such garments in the ministerie of the sacramentes In the place the which hee citeth out of Socrates there is one Sycinius an Nouatian bishop which is sayd to haue worne white apparell and therefore is reprehended as for to muche exquisitenesse finenesse of apparell the B. of Duresine in a letter he wrote alledgeth the same place agaynst the surplice A man would hardly beleue that maister Bullinger shoulde vse these places to proue a distinction of apparell amongst the ministers We are not ignorant but that a cloke hath bene vsed of the ministers in theyr seruice but that was no seuerall apparell of the ministers but common to all the Christians which with change of their religion changed also their apparell as appeareth manifestly in Tertullian de pallio As for the Petalum that S. Iohn ware I see not how it can bee proued to be like a bishops miter For the cap that S. Cyprian gaue the executioner argueth rather that it was the commō apparell which was customably worne for else it would not haue done him so much good As for his vpper garment which hee gaue to hys deacon it was a token of his good will which he would leaue with him as the practise hath bene seene with vs and proueth nothing that it was any seuerall apparell As for the white linnen garment which he suffered in it can not seme strange vnto vs which haue sene the holy martyrs of the Lord executed in Smithfield and other places And it is not to be thought that S. Cyprian had so small iudgement that lyuing in the time of persecution he would by wearing of some notable apparell from the rest as it weare betray him selfe into the handes of his enemies vnles all the christians had done so too for clearer and more open profession of theyr fayth and greater detestation of the contrary religion as Tertullian and the christians in his time did by the wearing of a cloke which reason may be also alledged of the Petalum of S. Iohn It is true Chrysostome maketh mention of a white garment but not in commendation of it but rather to the contrary For he sheweth that the dignitie of their ministerie their safetie and crowne was in taking heede that none vnmeete were admitted to the Lordes supper not in going about the church with a white garment And
not comely and agreeable to the simplicitie of the gospell of Christe crucified they may not be established Concerning your distinction wherby you lesten the idolatrie of the papistes I haue shewed the vanitie thereof But of thys matter you say you will speake againe In deede so you doe and againe wherin you confound the memorie and vnderstanding of the reader and declare your selfe not onlye ignorante of Aristotles rule of katholou proton whych is to speake of one thyng generally and once for all but euen to be voide of that order whych men haue commonly by the naturall logicke of reason Neither can you excuse your selfe in saying that the Admonition geueth you so often times occasion to speake of them and so to lay the faulte vpon it for that it being wrytten by diuers persons of the same matters whereof one knewe not of an others doing can not be blamed for the repetition of one thing twise when as you can not escape blame whych might haue gathered easely into one place y which is sayd of them in diuers Whych thing although it be not so easy for me to doe in your booke as it was for you to doe in theirs yet I will assay to doe it bothe in thys and in all other poyntes that folowe not thincking thereby to bring thys treatise of youres to any good order for that were to cast it new againe and then you would complaine of your minde peruerted but that I might remedy this so great disorder as farre as maye be done wythoute chaunging any thyng of that whych you haue set downe And if there be any other arguments touching any of these poyntes in other places whych I haue not gathered togither into one the fault is in thys that I could not bestowe so muche time in making a Harmonie of the things which are at so great discorde and then that whych is left out shall be answeared in place where I shall finde it Nowe let vs see M. Doctors deuteron ploun and second nauigation touching apparell whether it be any happier or haue any better succes then the first In the. 105. page M. Doctor to proue the vse of the surplice to draw out hys booke into some competent volume boroweth certen places of the examiner for answere wherevnto I will referre the reader to that which is answered vnto the examination as to a full and sufficient answere wherein I will rest and when M. Doctor hathe proued that which he sayth that it is but a childishe cauill he shall then heare further In the meane season it is but a slender Replie to so learned an answere that proueth bothe oute of other authors and out of those same whych the examiner citeth that by a white garment is meant a comely apparell and not slouēly to say it is but a childishe cauill whych a D. of Diuinitie and of xl yeares of age can not answer The place of Ierome vpon the. 44. of Ezechiel the more it be considered the more shall appeare the truthe of the answere Nowe I wil desire the reader to turne vnto the. 237. 238. 239. 240. 242. pages to see whether at thys third voyage M. doctor bringeth any better marchaundise Where first he surmiseth an vntruthe as though the admonition misliked of the taking away of the gray Amis where it sayeth only that there was les cause to take that away then the surplice c. Wherin there is nothing but the truthe sayde for because that was vsed but in few churches and but of few also in those few churches therfore if there were cause to take away that there was greater to take away the surplice And to take away the Amis out of the church and leaue the surplice c. is to heale a scratch and leaue a wound vnhealed Nowe whereas you say that we are alwayes Ad oppositum and that if the lawe commaunded straightly that we shoulde weare none of thys apparell that then we would weare if it should be answered againe that you doe Seruire scenae that is that you are a time seruer you see we mighte speake wyth more likelyhoode then you But we will not take as you doe the iudgement of God out of his handes but will attende paciently the reuelation and discouering of that whych is nowe hid bothe in you and in vs. And although you will graunt vs neither learning nor conscience yet you might aforde vs so muche witte as that we would not willingly and of purpose want those commodities of life whych we might otherwise enioy as wel as you if we had that gift of conformitie whych you haue Wheras you say that the accursed things of Iericho and the oxe that was fed to be sanctified vnto Baall and the woode consecrated vnto the Idoll were conuerted to the seruice of the liuing God when you shall proue that the surplice is so necessary to the seruice of God as gold and siluer and other mettal and as oxen and woode wherof the first sort were such as without the which the temple could not be builte the other suche as were expresly commaunded of God to be vsed in hys seruice then I will confesse that this place maketh some thing for you And yet if your copes and surplices c. shoulde haue suche a purgation by fire as those metalles had or euer the Lord would admit them into his treasure house and shuld be driuen to passe from popery vnto the gospel by the chimney the fire would make such wracke wyth them that they should neede haue better legs then your arguments to bring them into the church Moreouer do you not see heere that you haue not losed the knot but cutte it For the authors of the Admonition obiect the place of Esay and you obiecte againe the places of Deuteronomie and of the Iudges this is to oppose sword against sworde in stead that you shuld haue first holden out your buckler latched the blow of your aduersary As for churches it hath ben answered that they haue a profitable vse and therefore very euill compared with the surplice whych beside that it bringeth no profite hurteth also as is before sayde To be short sayth M. Doctor when he reciteth me almost a whole side word for word as he hath cited before wher he hath had his answere After this he setteth him selfe to proue that they edifye and that first by M. Bucers and M. Martyrs authoritye and yet in their wordes before alledged there is not a worde of edifying If he gather it of their wordes the answere is already made Then he bringeth reasons to proue it whereof in the first he seemeth to reason that because it is commaunded by a lawfull magistrate and lawfull authoritye therfore it edifieth As though a lawful magistrate doth nothing at any time vnlawfully or as thoughe a lawfull and a godly magistrate dothe not sometimes commaund things whych are inconuement and vnlawfull Saule was a lawfull magistrate and did commaund vnlawfull
whether a man consider the schollers that learne or the scholemaisters whych teach or the orders appoynted for the gouernment of the scholes they shall be found to be rather ciuill then ecclesiasticall and therfore can not come in stead of any ecclesiasticall ministery If the byshop do meane that they come in place of the gift of tongues and knowledge of the gospell that was first geuen miraculously I graunt it and then it maketh nothing to this question As for byshops they can not come in place of apostles or prophets for as much as they were when the Apostles Euangelists and Prophets were and are one of those ministeries whych S. Paul mentioneth in the. 4. to the Ephesians being the same that is the pastor There remaineth therfore the archbyshop whych if he came in place of the Prophets and apostles as the byshop sayeth howe commeth it to pas that the byshop sayeth by and by oute of the authoritye of Erasmus that Titus was an archbyshop for at that time there was bothe apostles prophets and Euangelists If it be so therfore that the archbyshop must supply the want of apostles c. howe commeth it to pas he wayteth not hys time whilest they were deade but commeth in like vnto one whych is borne oute of time and like the vntimely and hasty frute whych is seldome or neuer wholesome And for one to come into the apostles or prophets place requireth the authority of him whych ordained the apostles c. whych is the Lord and hys institution in hys word whych is that whych we desire to be shewed But heereof I haue spoken before at large The necessity of Deanes I do not acknowledge and I haue already spoken of them Touching Prebendaries I shall haue occasion to speake a worde heereafter For Earles and Dukes and such like titles of honor they are ciuil neither doth it folowe that because there may newe titles or newe offices be brought into the ciuile gouernement that therefore the same may be attempted in the church For God hath left a greater liberty in instituting thyngs in the common wealth then in the churche For for so much as there be diuers common wealthes and diuers formes of common wealthes and all good it falleth oute that the offices and dignityes whych are good in one common wealth are not good in an other as those which are good in a Monarchie are not good in Aristocratie and those which are good in Aristocratie are not good in a populare state But that can not be sayde of the churche whych is but one and vniforme and hathe the same lawes and forme of gouernment throughout the worlde In common wealths also there are conuersions one forme being changed into an other whych can not be in the true church of god As for Erasmus authoritye whych sayeth that Titus was an archbyshop I haue answeared to it And whereas Chrysostome sayeth that the iudgement of many byshops was committed to Titus I haue declared in what sorte that is to be vnderstanded and yet vpon those words the byshop can hardly conclude that whych he doth that Titus had the gouernment of many byshops For it is one thing to say the iudgement of many was committed vnto Titus and an other thyng to say that he had the gouernement of many The answer of the byshop vnto the fourth supposed reason pertaineth vnto an other question that is whether ecclesiasticall persons ought to exercise ciuil iurisdiction whervnto I will answer by Gods grace when I come to speake vpon occasion of M. Doctors boke of that question In the meane season I wil desire the reader to consider what weake grounds the archbyshop and archdeacon stand vpon seeing that the byshop of Sarum being so learned a man and of so great reading coulde say no more in their defence whych notwythstanding in the controuersies agaynst D. Harding is so pithy and so plentifull Now I haue shewed how little those things whych M. doctor bringeth make for proufe of that wherfore he alledgeth them I will for the better vnderstanding of the reader set downe what were the causes why the archbishops were first ordained and what were their prerogatiues and preheminēces before other byshops and the estate also of the old byshops whych liued in those times wherin althoughe there were great corruptions yet the church was in some tollerable estate to the entent it may appeare partly how little nede we haue of them now and partly also howe greate difference there is betweene oures and them Of the names of Metropolitane it hath bene spoken howe that he shoulde not be called the cheefe of priests or the high priest or byshop of byshops nowe I will sette downe hys office and power whych he had more then the byshops In the councell of Antioche it appeareth that the byshop of the metropolitane seate called Synodes propounded the matters whych were to be handled c. the archbyshop doth not nowe call Synodes but the Prince dothe for as much as there is no conuocation wythout a parliament he doth not propound the matters and gather the voyces but an other chosen whych is called prolocutor therfore in the respect that an archb metropolitane was first ordained we haue no neede of an archb or metropolitane Againe an other cause also appeareth there whych was to see that the byshoppes kepte them selues wythin their owne dioceses and brake not into an others diocese But first this may be done wythout an archbyshop and then it is not done of the archb hym selfe geuing licences vnto the wandring ministers to go throughout not so few as a dosen dioceses therefore the office of an archb is not necessarye in thys respecte and if it were yet it must be other then it is nowe Againe the cause whye the metropolitane differed from the rest and whye the calling of the Synode was geuen to hym as it appeareth in the same coūcel was for that the greatest concourse was to that place and most assembly of men whervnto also may be added for that there was the best commodity of lodging of vitailing and for that as it appeareth in other councels it was the place and seate of the Empire But wyth vs neyther the greatest concourse nor assemblye of men nor the greatest commodity of lodging and vitailing neyther yet the seate of the kingdome is in the metropolitane city therefore wyth vs there is no suche cause of a metropolitane or archbyshop In the councel of Carthage holden in Cyprians time it appeareth that no byshop had authority ouer an other to compell an other or to condemne an other but euery byshop was left at hys owne liberty to answer vnto God and to make hys accompt vnto Christ and if any thing were done against any bishop it was done by the consent of all the byshops in the prouince or as many as coulde conueniently assemble Therefore Cyprian whych was the metropolitane byshop had then no authoritye ouer the rest
the people to be seene it was meete that they shoulde doe it in houses which otherwise they woulde haue done in open places And then those houses which receiued the congregation were not as I haue shewed for the tyme to be counted priuate houses And further in places where the gospell hath not bene receiued nor no church gathered but one only housholde embracing the gospell I say in suche a case and especially in the tyme of persecution where should the mynisters preach or mynister the sacramentes more conueniently then in that house where those professors of the gospell bee Now to draw thys into our churches which may safely come into open places and where the church and congregation standeth of dyuers housholdes is a token of great want of iudgement in shuffelyng those thyngs together which for the great diuersitie of their natures will not be mingled And in the page 152. he bringeth other reasons to proue that the sacraments may be mynistred in a priuate house whereof the first is that our sauiour Christ celebrated his supper in a priuate house and in an inner parlour the reason wherof is easely to be knowne for the law of God ordayned that euery housholder in hys house should eate the passeouer with hys owne family if it were so great as that they might well eate vp a whole Lambe Our sauiour Christ therfore with hys housholde obserueth thys law and for because he would declare that the passeouer had hys ende and that hys holy sacrament of the supper should come in place thereof he doth forthwith celebrate it in the same place Which if he had not done neyther could he haue done it at al the houre of hys apprehension then approching neyther should it so liuely haue appeared that eyther the passeouer was abolyshed or that the supper came in place of it being celebrated both at an other tyme in an other place For the celebrating of the supper in houses in the Apostles tymes and in Iustins and Tertullians tymes which were tymes of persecution I haue spoken before where also I declared that such houses for the tyme are not priuate but publike And these are hys reasons wherewith he wold proue that the sacraments and therefore also the sacrament of baptisme may be mynistred in a priuate house He hath certayne other to proue that women may baptise whereof the first is in the. 93. page and that is that Sephora Moses wyfe circumcised her chylde whereunto I haue answeared partly before that particular examples especially contrary to generall rules are not to be followed and will further answere if I first admonishe the reader wherupon thys baptisme of mydwiues and in priuate houses rose that when we know of how rotten a stocke it came the frute it selfe may be more lothsome vnto vs It first therfore rose vpon a false interpretation of the place of S. Iohn Vnlesse a man be borne againe of vvater of the spirite he can not enter into the kingdome of heauen Where certayne doe interpreate the worde water for the materiall elementall water wherewith men are washed when as our sauiour Christ taketh water there by a translation or borowed speach for the spirite of God the effect whereof it shadoweth out For euen as in an other place by the fire and the spirite he meaneth nothing but the spirite of God which purgeth and purifyeth as the fire doth so in thys place by the water and the spirite he meaneth nothing else but the spirite of God which clenseth the filth of sinne and cooleth the broyling heate of an vnquiet conscience as water washeth the thing which is foule and quencheth the heate of the fire Secondarily thys error came by a false and vnnecessary conclusyon drawne of that place For although the scripture should say that none can be saued but those which haue the spirite of God and are baptised with materiall and elementall water yet oughte it to bee vnderstanded of those which can conueniently and orderly bee brought to baptisme as the scripture saying that who so doth not beleeue the gospell is already condemned meaneth thys sentence of those which can heare the gospell and haue discretion to vnderstande it when they heare it and can not heere shut vnder thys condemnation eyther those that be borne deafe and so remayne or little infantes or naturall fooles that haue no wit to conceiue what is preached And heereupon * S. Augustine concludeth that all not baptised are condemned which is as absurdly concluded of hym as that of our sauiour Christes wordes except one eate the fleshe of the sonne of man hee hath not lyfe he concludeth that whatsoeuer he bee which receiueth not the sacrament of the supper is damned Vpon thys false conclusion of S. Augustine hath rysen thys prophanation of the sacrament of baptisme in being mynistred in pryuate houses by women or lay men as also vpon hys other absurde conclusion sprong a horrible abuse of the Lords supper whylest they dyd thrust the bread and wyne into yong infants mouthes for that men were persuaded that otherwyse if their children shoulde die before they were baptised or had receiued the supper they were damned for euer And what better token can there be that thys was the cause of thys blynde baptisme then that the papistes from whome thys baptisme by women is translated were of the same iudgement and for that cause brought in theyr baptisme by women Hereupon may be added an other cause which is that as when the church began not only to declyne but to fall away from the sincerity of relygion it borowed a number of other prophanations of the Heathen so also it borowed thys For as the Heathen had women priestes so it would haue also her women priestes and that thys was an other occasion of bringing in the baptisme by women it appeareth by your Clement if he can speake any truth Now I returne to the example of Sephora and say that the vnlawfulnes of that fact doth appeare suffyciently in that shee dyd it before her husband Moses which was a Prophet of the Lord and to whome that office of circumcysion dyd appertayne so that vnlesse M. Doctor would haue mydwyues baptise in the presence of the byshop or the mynister there is no cause why he should alledge thys place Besides that shee dyd cutte of that foreskin of the infant not of mynde to obey the commaundement of God or for the saluation of the childe but in a choler only to the ende that her husbande myght be eased and haue release which mynde appeareth in her both by her wordes and by casting away in anger the forskin which she had cutte of And if it be sayde that the euent declared that the act pleased God because that Moses forthwith waxed better and was recouered of hys sicknesse I haue shewed before how if we measure thinges by the euent we shall oftentymes iustifie the wicked and take the
thys abuse and hys reason is because s. Paule speaketh there agaynst those that by fained excuses seeke to defraud the pastor of hys lyuing as who should say s Paule dyd not conclude that particulare conclusion thou shalt not by friuolous excuses defraud the minister wyth thys general saying God is not mocked for hys reason is God is not mocked at all or in any matter therfore he is not mocked in thys Or as who should say because our sauioure Christ saying that it is not lawfull to seperate that which God hath ioyned speaking of diuorce it is not lawfull to vse thys sentence being a generall rule in other thyngs when as we know it is as well and properly vsed agaynst the papists whych seuer the cup from the breade as agaynst the Iewes whych put away their wiues for euery small and trifeling cause And as for thys questioning it can be little better termed then a very trifeling and toying For first of all children haue not nor can not haue any fayth hauing no vnderstanding of the word of God I will not deny but children haue the spirite of God whych worketh in them after a wonderful fashion But I deny that they can haue faith which cometh by hearing vnderstandyng whych is not in them Secondarily if children could haue fayth yet they that present the childe can not precisely tell whether that particulare chylde hath fayth or no and therfore can not so absolutely answere that it beleeueth Because it is comprehended in the couenaunt and is the chylde of faythfull parents or at the least of one of the parents there is warrant vnto the presenters to offer it vnto baptisme and to the minister for to baptise it And further we haue to thinke charitably and to hope that it is one of the church But it can be no more precisely sayd that it hath fayth thē it may be sayd precisely elected for in dede it is all one to say that it is elect and to say it beleueth and this I thinke the authors of the admonition do meane when they say that they require a promise of the Godfather whych is not in them to performe Thirdly if bothe those thyngs were true that is that infantes had fayth and that it myght be precisely sayd y it beleeueth yet ought not the minister demaund thys of the childe whom he knoweth can not answer hym nor those that answer for the childe ought to demaund to be baptised when they neyther meane nor may be being already baptised But it is meete that all thyngs should be done grauely simply and plainly in the church And so if those other two thyngs were lawfull it ought to be done as seemeth to haue bene done in S. Augustines times when the minister asked those that presented the infant and not the infant whether it were faythfull and those whych presented answeared in their owne persons and not in the childes that it was faythfull For Godfathers there is no controuersy betwene the admonition and M. doctors boke whych appeareth not only in their corrections but plainly in the 188. page where they declare that they rather condemne the abuse whylest it is vrged more then greater matters and whych are in deede necessary thys being a thyng arbitrarie and left to the discretion of the church and whilest there is so euil choyse for the moste parte of Godfathers whych is expressedly mentioned of the admonition and whilest it is vsed almost for nothyng else but as a meane for one frende to gratify an other wythout hauing any regarde to the solempne promyse made before God and the congregation of seeing the childe broughte vp in the nurture and feare of the lord For the thyng it selfe consydering that it is so generally receyued of all the churches they do not mislike of it As for fonts I haue spoken of before both particularly in general But wheras M. doctor sayeth in the apostles times they baptised in no basins but in riuers common waters I wold know whether there was a riuer or common water in Cornelius and in the iaylors houses where Paul and Peter baptised To proue crossing in baptisme M. Bucers authority is brought I haue sayd before what iniury it is to leaue the publyke workes of Bucer and to flye vnto the Apochryphas wherin also they might driue vs to vse the like and to set downe lykewise hys wordes whych we finde in hys priuate letters But it is first of all to be obserued of the reader howe wyth what name those notes are called whych are cited of M. Doctor for the defence of these corruptions They are called by M. Doctors owne confession censures which word signifyeth and implyeth as muche as corrections and controlments of the booke of seruice and therefore we may take thys for a generall rule throughout the whole boke of seruice that in whatsoeuer thyngs in controuersy M. Doctor doth not bring Bucers authority to confirme them that those thyngs Bucer mislyked of as for example in priuate baptisme and communions ministred in houses for interrogatories ministred vnto infants such lyke for so much as they are not confirmed here by M. Bucers iudgemēt it may be thought that he mislyked of them and no doubt if eyther M. Bucers notes had not eyther condemned or mislyked of diuers thyngs in the seruice boke we should haue had the notes printed and set forthe to the full thys I thought in a word to admonishe the reader of Vnto M. Bucers authority I could heere opposemen of as great authority yea the authoritye of all the reformed churches whych shall also be done afterward And if there were nothyng to oppose but the worde of God whych will haue the sacraments ministred simply and in that sincerity that they be left vnto vs it is enoughe to make all men to couer their faces and to be ashamed if that whych they shall speake be not agreeable to that simplicity The reasons whych Bucer bryngeth I will answer whych in thys matter of crossing are two First that it is auncient and so it is in deede For Tertullian maketh mention of thys vsage and if thys be sufficient to proue the goodnesse of it then there is no cause why we should mislyke of the other superstitions and corruptious whych were likewyse vsed in those tunes For the same Tertullian sheweth that they vsed also at baptisme to taste of miike and hony and not to washe all the weeke after they had ministred baptisme But heere I will note the cause whervpon I suppose thys vse of crossing came vp in the primitiue church wherby shal appeare how there is no cause now why it shuld be retained if there were any why it should be vsed in the primitiue church It is knowne to all that haue red the Ecclesiastical stories that the heathen dyd obiect to the Christians in times past in reproche that the God whych they beleued of was hanged vpon a crosse And they
iudgement of M. Bucer And wheras M. doctor vpon that s. Peter willeth the husbands to geue honor to their wiues wold approue this manner of speach in matrimony wyth my body I thee worshyp he must vnderstaÌ„d that it is one thing wyth vs to worship and an other thing to honor For we honor men whych we do not worshyp and besides that S. Peter speaketh of the honor of the mynde wherby the husband shuld be moued to beare wyth the infirmities of his wife therfore it is vnfitly alleaged to proue that he may worship her with his body As for the receiuing of the Communion when they be marryed that it is not to be suffered onles there be a generall receiuing I haue before at large declared and as for the reason that is fathered of M. Bucer whych is that those that be Christians maye not be ioyned in maryage but in Christe It is verye slender and cold as if the sacrament of the supper were instituted to declare any such thyng or they could not declare their ioyning togither in Christ by no meanes but by receyuing the supper of the Lorde To the next section in the. 197. page TEll me M. doctor why there should be any such confirmation in the church being brought in by the fained Decretall Epistles of the Popes and no one tittle therof being once found in the scrypture and seeing that it hath bene so horribly abused and not necessary why ought it not to be vtterly abolyshed and thirdly thys confirmation hath very dangerous poynts in it The first steppe of popery in thys confirmation is the laying on of hands vpon the head of the childe wherby the opinion of it that it is a sacrament is confirmed especially when as the prayer dothe saye that it is done according to the example of the Apostles whych is a manifest vntruthe and taken in deede from the popish confirmation The seconde is for that the byshop as he is called must be the only minister of it wherby the popishe opinion whych esteemeth it aboue baptisme is confirmed For whilest baptisme may be ministred of the minister and not coÌ„firmation but only of the byshop there is great cause of suspition geuen to thinke that baptisme is not so precious a thing as confirmation seeing thys was one of the principall reasons wherby that wicked opinion was establyshed in popery I do not heere speake of the inconuenience that meÌ„ are constrained with charges to bryng their childreÌ„ oftentimes halfe a score miles for that which if it were nedeful might be as wel done at home in their owne parishes The thirde is for y â— â—â— the allegation of the seconde cause of the vsing of the confirmation the boke sayeth that by the imposition of hands and prayer the chyldren may receyue strengthe and defence agaynst all temptations whereas there is no promyse that by the laying on of hands vpon chyldren any suche gyfte shall be geuen and it maintayneth the popyshe distinction that the spirite of God is geuen at baptisme vnto the remissyon of synnes and in confirmation vnto strength the whych very worde strength the booke alledgeth and all thys M. Doctor confuteth by callyng of the authors of the admonition peeuish and arrogant To the next section contained in the. 198. 199. 200. 201. pages LEast M. Doctor as hys common fashyon is when the corruption of anye thyng is spoken agaynst say that we condemne buryall I would haue hym vnderstand that we hold that the body must be honestly and comely buried and that it is mete that for that cause some reasonable numbre of those whych be the frends and neyghbors about should accompany the corps to the place of buryall We hold it also lawfull to lament the dead and if the dignity of the persone so require we thynke it not vnlawfull to vse some way about the buriall wherby that may appeare but yet so that there be a measure kepte bothe in the weepyng and in the charges consydering that whereas immoderate eyther weepyng or pompe was neuer no not in the tyme of the lawe allowed nowe in the time of the gospell all that is not lawfull whych was permitted in the time of the law For vnto the people of God vnder the law weeping was by so much more permitted vnto them then vnto vs by howe muche they had not so cleare a reuelation and plaine syght of the resurrection as we haue whych was y cause also why it was lawfull for them to vse more cost in the embaulmyng of the dead therby to nouryshe and to helpe their hope touchyng the resurrection wherof we haue a greater pledge by the resurrection of our sauyor Christ then they had Nowe for the thyngs whych the admonition findeth fault wyth and thereof bryngeth reason M. Doctor of hys bare credite wythout any reason or scrypture or any thyng els commendeth them vnto vs sayeth they be good And thys you shall marke to be M. doctors symple shyft throughoute hys booke that when he hath no coloure of scripture nor of reason no name nor title of doctor theÌ„ to make vp some thyng he varyeth hys affirmation by all the figures he can as in saying simplye that it is so and then in askyng whether it be not so and after in askyng whether there is any other man will thynke that it is not so as if the woulde make vs beleeue that he setteth vs dyuers kindes of meates because he bryngeth the same in dyuers dyshes For besydes these reasons he hathe no reason eyther to proue that it is meete to haue prescript forme of seruice for the dead or that the minister should be drawne to thys charge Surely if the order be so good and conuenient it hath met with a very barren patron whych can say nothing for it And although there be enough sayd by the admonition yet because thys bold and hardy speache is enough to lead the simpler away to make them thinke that M. doctor hathe a good cause therfore I wil also say somthyng of these rites of buryal And first of all as thys almost is a generall fault in them all that they maintayne in the mindes of the ignorant the opinion of praying for the dead so is thys also a nother general fault that these ceremonyes are taken vp without any example either of the churches vnder the law or of the purest churches vnder the gospel that is of the churches in the apostles times For when the scripture descrybeth the ceremonies or rites of buryall amongste the people of God so dilygently that it maketh mention of the smallest thyngs there is no doubte but the holy Ghoste doth therby shew vs a paterne wherevnto we should also frame oure buryalles And therfore for so much as neyther the church vnder the law nor vnder the gospell when it was in the greatest puritye dyd euer vse any prescript forme of seruice in the buryall of theyr dead it coulde not be but daungerous
that he dare not offende in the open breache of that godlynes honesty and quietnes which Saynt Paule commendeth vnto vs so the Ecclesiasticall regyment doth vse that kynde of dysciplyne whereby the consience and inwarde man may bee kept in that willing obedyence vnto Gods commaundement touching a godlye honest and quyet lyfe And to note the distinction of these regymentes cyuill and spirituall the place vnto the Thessalonyans is well alledged for by the wordes suche as rule ouer you in the Lord the Apostle doth putte a difference beetweene the cyuill and ecclesiasticall regymente For albeit that godlye cyuill magistrates doe rule ouer vs in the Lorde yet Saynt Paule catexochen that is by excellencye ascrybeth that vnto the Ecclesiasticall gouernoures because that whereas the cyuill magistrate besyde hys care for the saluation of the soules of hys people is occupyed in procuring also the wealth and quyetnes of thys lyfe the Ecclesiasticall gouernors haue all their whole care set vpon that only â–ª which perteyneth to the lyfe to come And to thys end also is alledged by the admonition the place of Tim. wherein the apostle teacheth part of the ecclesiasticall dysciplyne which the mynister may vse to consist in reprehensions and rebukes which must be tempered according as the estate and age of euery one doth require Theyr meaning is not as M. Doctor vntruely surmyseth to shut out the cyuill magistrate or to debar hym of punishing the wicked but that it appertayneth not vnto the mynisters to deale that wayes whose correction of faultes lyeth partly in reprehensions and admonitions which he speaketh of there partly in excommunication wherof is spoken before Further touching the place of the Ephesians for so much as our sauior Christ as he is head of hys church is the spirituall gouernor thereof it is meete that their gouernement which are appoynted vnderneath hym as he is head shoulde be lykewise spirituall as hys is For as for the cyuill magistrate although hee be appoynted of Christ as he is God in which respect there is none aboue Christ yet hee is not appoynted of hym in respect that he is head of the church in regarde wherof God is aboue Christ and as the apostle sayeth the head of hym Now that I haue shewed that the places quoted by the admonition are for the most part to the purpose of that they be quoted for I wil adde a reason or two to thys pourpose before I come to answer to those reasons which are brought by M. Doctor Here I must desire the reader to remember which I sayde before when I spake agaynst non residencie the multitude difficultie of those things which are required of the mynister of the word of god And with all I wil leaue to the consyderation of euery one the great infirmitie and weakenes which is in men both the which consyderations set together it will easely appeare how vnmeete a thing it is that the mynister shoulde haue any other charge layde vppon hym seeing that it being so wayghty an office as will require all the gyftes he hath be they neuer so great it must needes fall out that so much as he doth in an other calling so much he leaueth vndone in thys And what the hand of man is able to reach herein it is to be considered in the apostles whome if the office of the mynistery dyd so wholy occupy and set a worke that they could admyt no other charge with it yea were fayne to cast of that which they had it is cleare that none of those which lyue now can besyde that function admytte any other publyke calling The story is knowen in the Actes that the apostles euen during the tyme that they kept together at Ierusalem and taught the church there were fayne that they might the better attend vnto preaching and praying by which two things S. Luke summarely setteth forth the office of the mynistery to geue ouer the charge of prouiding for the poore vnto others because they were not hable to doe both Now for so much as the Apostles endued with such giftes as none haue bene since or shal be hereafter coulde not discharge together with the office of the mynister that also of the deacon how should any man be founde that together with that office can discharge the office of a ciuill magistrate And if the Apostles would not haue the office of a Deacon which was ecclesiasticall and therefore of the same kynde with the mynistery ioyned vnto it how much lesse will they suffer that the mynistery should be ioyned with a ciuill office and therefore of an other kynde For reason teacheth that there is an easyer mingling of those which are of one kynd then of those which are of dyuers kyndes Agayne how can we iustly reproue the papistes for the vse of both the swordes spirituall and materiall when as we are found in the same fault our selues And surely howsoeuer long custome hath caused it to seme yet in deede it is a very great and vntollerable confusion which may be the easelyer vnderstanded if so be we set before our eyes how vncomely and disordered it is in the lyke or rather in the very same case For let vs imagine the Mayor or Baylife of a towne or the King or Emperor of the lande to come into the pulpet and make a sermon afterwarde to mynister the Sacramentes and from the Church to goe with the scepter in hys hand vnto the place of iudgement who would not be amased to see this and wonder at it as at a straunge and monstrous sight assuredly the selfe same deformity it is when as the Mynister of the word is made a Iustice of peace of Quorum a Commyssioner an Earle or any such lyke to whome the iudgement of matters pertayning to the courte of the ciuill Magistrate is committed especially seeing there are God be praysed of the Nobilitie and gentry of the realme that are able to discharge these offices much better then these Ecclesiasticall persones to whome they are committed And if so be that there fall out any question at any tyme which is to be decided by the word of God and wherein the aduise of the mynister is needefull there the mynisters helpe may and ought to bee required For thereof we haue not only an example in Esra where the Princes in a matter of difficultie came asked the counsell of Esra but we haue a plaine commaundement in Moses by the Lord â–ª who commaunded that the cause of pertury should be heard before the Lord in the sanctuary at the hearing wherof the high priest shuld be present by which commaundement the Lord doth not by bringing thys cause into the sanctuary declare that the iudgement therof dyd appertayne vnto the Ecclesiasticall court but because it being a matter which touched the glory of God very expresly hee woulde haue the Princes which were iudges there to be the nearer touched and the depelyer affected with
not be husbandmen crafts mē c. yet may haue ciuil offices I thinke far otherwise that although neither be lawfull yet the one were more tollerable then the other For seing after the ministery of the word there is no calling vnder the sunne weightyer and which requireth greater exercise of the mynde then the office of the magistrate it is agaynst all reason to lay this heauy burthen vpon a man that is already loden and hath as much as he is able to beare It were more equall if they will needes adde vnto the weyght of thys burthen to lay some lyghter charge of exercising handy craft then to breake hys backe with the charge of a cyuill magistrate And whereas in the pollicy of M. Doctor it semeth a furtherance to the gospell to ioyne these together which was also the pollicy of the Idolaters as I haue before declared in the wisedome of God it hath semed farre otherwyse which I doubt not dyd therfore separate the ministery from thys pompe whiche is commendable in the cyuill magistrate least the efficacy and power of the simplicitie of the word of God and of the mynistery should be obscured whilest men would attribute the conuersion of soules vnto the gospell dew vnto the worde and to the spirite of God to these gloryous shewes And least whylest the mynyster haue the woorde in one hande and the sword in the other men should not be able to iudge so well in their consciences of the mighty operation of the worde of God in them For they might doubt with them selues whether the feare out ward shew of the mynister caryed some stroke with them in beleuing the word But M. Doctor sayeth that cyuill offices are not to be counted worldly affayres but heauenly and spirituall it is so and yet when they are compared with the ecclesiasticall offices they may be called secular offices for so muche as they together with the care of relygion procure and prouide for the things wherby we may quietly and commodiously lyue here where the ecclesiasticall offices are immediatly and only bent to procure the glory of God and the saluation of men and in that signification of heauenly spirituall which you take marchandyse husbandry and the handy craft be heauenly and spyrituall although not in the same degree All lawfull callinges came from God returne to hym agayne that is he is both author of them and they ought to be referred to hys glory so that if the mynister may exercise all thinges which be heauenly and spirituall you may as well bring hym downe to the plough as promote hym to the courte And whereas M. Doctor sayth that the office of a commissyoner is ecclesiasticall because it handleth ecclesiasticall causes I meruayle that he is so ignorant that he can not put a difference betweene geuing iudyciall sentences and appoynting bodely punishmentes which are meere cyuill and betweene the vnderstanding the truth of euery such cause according as the worde of God defyneth of it which is a thing common as wel vnto the magistrate as vnto the minister and wherein the mynister because he ought to be most ready ought if neede be consulted with An other of Maister Doctors reasons is that as kinges doe serue Christ by making lawes for hym so byshoppes doe serue Christ by executing lawes for him As though it pertayned not vnto the magistrates to execute lawes aswell as to make them and as if the magistrate were not therefore called a speaking law because by executing them he doth cause the lawes after a fashion to speake Thys is to deuide the stake of the magistrate betwene hym and the byshop yea to geue the byshoppe the best part of it For wee know that with vs the people be at making of the lawes which may not meddle with the execution of them And if M. Doctor say that he meaneth not hereby to shut the prince from executing the lawes then as hys similytude when it is at the best proueth nothing so by thys meanes it haltes downe ryght and is no simylitude As for Elie and Samuell they are extraordinary examples which may thereby appeare for that both these offices first meting in Melchisedech afterward in Moses were by the commaundement of God seuered when as the Lord toke from Moses being so wise godly a man the priesthode gaue it to Aaron and to hys successors And so for so much as when the Lord would polishe hys church make it famous renoumed in the world he gaue thys order It appeareth that he wold haue this to be a perpetuall rule vnto his church And by so much it is the clearer for that the Lord did not tary vntil Moses death but toke the priesthode away frō Moses which was a man as able to execute both as eyther Elie or Samuell And thys may be also easely seene for that in a maner alwayes where there was any good and stayed estate of the churche these offices were mynistred by seuerall persons and then met were mingled when the estates were very ruinous and myserable And if thys be a good reason to proue that mynisters may exercise ciuill offices it is as good a reason to proue that princes may preach and mynister the sacramentes For if the mynisters may exercise ciuill offices because Elie and Samuell being mynisters did so the Princes and Iudges may preach the word and mynister the sacramentes because Elie and Samuell being princes and iudges dyd so And so we see how M. Doctor going about to defende one confusion bringeth in an other As for Elias killing the false prophetes and our sauiour Christes whipping out of the temple it is strange that Maister Doctor will alledge them as thinges to be followed when he may as well teach that we may cal for fire from heauen as Elias dyd and being demaunded answere nothing as our sauiour dyd as to follow these actions which are most singular and extraordinary And if these one or two examples be enough to breake the order that God hath set by thys a man may proue that the mynisters may be fyshers and tent makers because Peter and Paule being mynisters dyd fyshe and make tents And truely these are not so extraordinary and from the generall rule as the other be And it was permitted in a councell that rather then a mynister should haue two benefices he might labor with hys handes to supply hys want withall When S. Paule willed Tim. that he should not receiue an accusation agaynst an elder vnder two or three witnesses he dyd commit nothing les then any ciuill office vnto hym And M. Doctor hym selfe hath alledged it before as a thing incident to the office of a byshop and therefore he doth forget hymselfe maruellously now that maketh thys a ciuill office And doth M. Doctor thincke that S. Paule made magistrates Or is he of that iudgement that the church in the tyme of persecution may make ciuill officers
and grauitie that the order which the Apostle there vseth is still to be obserued M. Bucer of the kingdome of Christ in the. 1. booke and. 9. chap. sayeth that S. Paule accuseth the Corinthians for that the whole church dyd not cast out of their company the incestuous person 6. That Chauncelors Commissaries Officials c. vsurpe authority in the Church which belongeth not to them M. Caluin in hys Institutions 4. boke 11. chap. 7. sect speaketh agaynst the office of Officials and alledgeth diuers reasons agaynst them as that they exercise that part of the Byshops charge and that they handle matters whiche pertayne not to the spirituall iurisdiction M. Beza in hys boke of Diuorces prouing that the iudiciall deciding of matrimonyall causes appertayneth vnto the cyuill magistrate sayeth that officials proctors and promoters and in a word all the swinish filth now of long time hath wasted the church Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. chap. to the Romaines speaking agaynst the ciuill iurisdiction of byshops doth by the same reason condemne it in their deputies the officials 7. That the mynisters of the worde ought not to exercise any ciuill offices and iurisdiction M. Caluin in hys Institutions 4. boke 11. chap. 9. sect bringeth dyuers reasons to proue that byshops may neyther vsurpe nor take being geuen them eyther the right of the sword or the knowledge of ciuill causes M. Beza in hys Confessions chap. 5. sect 32. sayth that the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction is to be distinguished from the ciuill and that although the byshops in the times of Christian Emperoures were troubled with the hearing of cyuill causes yet they dyd not that by any iudiciall power which they exercised but by a frendly entreaty of the parties which were at discorde and sayeth notwithstanding that herein the Emperors dyd geue too much to the ambytion of certayne byshoppes whereupon by little and by litle afterwarde all thinges were confounded And in the. 42. section sayeth that those corporall punyshmentes which the Apostles exercised were peculier and extraordinary Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. to the Romaines speaking of thys meeting of both Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in one man sayeth that when both the ciuill Ecclesiasticall functions do so meete that one hindreth the other so that he which exerciseth the one can not mynister the other M. Bucer vpon the. 5. of Mathew sayeth that there is no man so wise holy which is able to exercise both the ciuill the Ecclesiasticall power and that therfore he which will exercise the one must leaue the other 8. That the sacraments ought not to be priuately administred nor by women The forsayd confession .c. 20. holdeth that baptisme ought not to be mynistred by women or midwiues to the which also may be ioyned the Liturgy of the English church at Geneua which cōdemneth the mynistring of either of the sacraments in priuate houses or by women Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. chap. of the. 1. ep to the Corinthes in describing the corruptions of the Lordes supper noteth thys to be one that the church dyd not communicate altogether which corruption as it was in dyuers places in times past so he complayneth that it is now M. Bucer in hys first booke of the kingdome of Christ and. 7. chap. proueth out of the. 10. to the Corinth that the whole church should receiue the supper of the Lord together and that the vse of the church of God in thys behalfe ought with great and dyligent endeuour to be restored vnto the churches that it is a contempt of the mysteries not to be partakers when they are called M. Beza agaynst Westphalus sheweth that it is not decent that baptisme be mynistred but in the church that at standing houres and by the mynisters and further that vppon no necessitie as it is called it ought to be mynistred in priuate houses And that if it might be mynistred in priuate houses yet no otherwyse then by mynisters M. Caluin in hys institutions 4. booke chap. 15. sect 20. 21. proueth that baptisme ought not to be mynistred by priuate men or by any women 9. The iudgement of those late wryters touching ceremonies and apparell whose secret Epistles M. Doctor alledgeth appeareth by these places folowing cited but of their workes Printed and published by them selues Wherof also some are alledged by the answerer to the examiner where are diuers other places to thys purpose wherunto I referre the Reader M. Bucer vpon the. 18. of Math. sayth that they say nothing which doe alwayes obiect that greater things must be vrged then the reformation of ceremonies therby defending the reliques of Antichrist forasmuch as ceremonies are testimonies of religion And that as there is no agreement betwene Christ and Belial so those which are sincere Christians can abyde nothing of Antichrist Peter Martyr vpon the .10 c. of the .2 booke of the kings sayeth that the Lutheranes must take heede least whilest they cut of many popishe errors they follow Iehu by retayning also many popish things For they defend still the reall presence in the breade of the supper and images and vestmentes c. and sayth that relygion must be wholy reformed to the quicke Bullinger in hys Decades 5. booke and. 9. sermon sayth that our sauior Christ the Apostles vsed their accustomed apparell in the supper and that although in times past the ministers put on a kynde of cloke vppon their common apparell yet that was done neither by the example of Christ nor of hys Apostles but by the tradition of man and that in the ende after the example of the priestes apparell in the olde law it was cast vpon the mynisters at the ministration of the supper But sayeth he we haue learned long agoe not only that all Leuiticall ceremonies are abrogated but also that they ought to bee brought agayne into the church of no man And therefore seing we are in the light of the gospell and not vnder the shadow of the law we doe worthely reiect that massing Leuiticall apparell Gualter vpon the. 21. of the Actes among others bringeth thys for one reason to improue Paules shauing of hys head for that the gospell had beene preached .xx. yeares and that therefore the infirmitie of the Iewes ought not to haue beene borne with And after hee sayeth that that teacheth how much the supersticious masters of ceremonyes hurte the gospell which nourishe the weakenes of fayth by the long keeping of ceremonyes and by their long bearing hynder the doinges of those mynisters which are more feruent FINIS Prouer. 8. 15. 2. Chap. 34. 60. chap. 12. 3. Deut. 25. 2. Samu. 7. 2. Psal 132. Esra 3. 3. 10. Agg. 1. 14. 2. kin 22. 23. 2. kin 18. 2. Chr. 17. 8 Chap. 17. 18 1. Cor. 1. 27. 28 2. Chro. 29. 34 2. Chr. 30. 17. 2. Kin. 5. 4. 14 1. Sam. 25. 18 1. Agg. 234. 1. Cor. 3. 12. 13 2. Cor. 6. 15. Cap. 2. 42. 43. Rom. 12. 18. 2. Cor. 10.