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A58877 Conversations upon several subjects in two tomes / written in French by Mademoiselle de Scudery ; and done into English, by Mr. Ferrand Spence.; Conversations sur divers sujets. English Scudéry, Madeleine de, 1607-1701.; Spence, Ferrand. 1683 (1683) Wing S2157; ESTC R5948 181,005 434

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Occasions wherein they are bound to make acknowledgment tho there was no fixt design to serve us Our Parents did not think of obliging us in giving us life sometimes likewise they have brought us up very ill Are we therefore dispensed from Gratitude towards ' em no not at all But those who argue so bruitishly as there are enough that do in the World have never well considered the true Cause of Acknowledgment which is difficult to explain for this very reason because it is too clear and too well known and 't is rather found in the Heart than in the Reason It is in a word interrupted Cleander that all those who make use of the way and means for the sending us to Heaven or for the doing us some great good tho they know nothing of it ' emselves become to us as Sacred and besides more natural it is not for Rivers to return to the Sea from whence they came and for the Earth to send forth new Herbs and new Flowers towards Heaven after having receiv'd Dew from it than for a Benefit received to send forth another benefit towards the place from whence it came And truly Gratitude has been found established in all Ages thro all the Earth among Barbarous People who seem not to have Reason and amongst the very Beasts whom Men will not allow to be endu'd with Reason This is very well stated said Iphierates But I do not apprehend what coherence there can be between a happy Marriage and that Passion which unites Subjects to the Prince There needs no more than to consider answer'd Cleander that the most solid friendship even betwixt the most rational minds are sometimes broken thro the different Interests which arise and the like often happens in Love at all adventures the Friend and the Lover may become at least suspected of another Interest What makes the great Union in Marriage is that there can never be two opposite Interests and therefore wise and rational Persons almost ever return from the disgusts which humane Weakness seems to be attended withal The same Union of Interests and the same indissoluble Bond is found in the good Subject to the good Prince especially if he is more particularly engaged to his Person The Glory of the one is that of the other and for the knowledge of this Truth there needs no more than see the joy of Courtiers when the Prince has newly done some great and brave action Let us dive further into this business said Celanira I have a hundred times seen persons of my Sex interest ' emselves so zealously in good or ill successes that forgetting they had no share in the State they said in relating some Illustrious Action We have beaten the Enemy and taken their Canon and their Baggage That frequently happens said Philocrita but I never speak so For my part said I then I have wondred a hundred times to see the Transports of People when they have been obliged to make Bonfires for a Victory For there are Millions of Men who will make merry on those tumultuous occasions and yet have not wherewithal to live on the next day What you say is very well observed said Alcinor But in short reassumed I as to Love and Friendship I must confess I find it hard to understand how the first can agree with the Subject now in hand for Friendship truly speaking can only be very strong amongst Persons that are equal it does not seem to be made for Kings And for this time I ground my self upon Authority For do not you remember added I speaking to Cleander those Stanzas of Morality for the instruction of a young Prince that are not yet Published nor finished which were sent you from Court by the Person that made 'em and of which as ignorant as I am I have learnt the greatest part by heart so jolly and pleasant did I think 'em tho they may afford the most Learned Persons what may be to their satisfaction I remember 'em said Cleander but I know not what you can draw from 'em for your purpose You shall see said I to him that you don't well remember ' em For after having spoken tho after no distastful manner of all the Vertues and Passions and particularly Love whose good and evil he remarks in few words he cries speaking of that Passion Love thou fair Angel or foul Devil Thy Force and Strength still subdues Ours Of thee I say nor Good nor Evil Tho Bothth ' hast done me by both Powers In their Predestin'd minute all All must to Thee Adoring fall They are but Hypocrites in Love Vnless Ecstatical they prove Ah! Why dost Rove so ev'ry where Sweet Friendship which Resembles Thee Tho in some things You interfere To Love joyns Vertuous Purity Friendship Repeat it once again Candid Sincere and without Stain Vnder thy moderate Rule and Care Is all as Charming as 't is Rare Then he employs four Stanzaes in shewing the good and evil of Friendship and in giving Precepts for it But he concludes with these Into your hands it is Great Kings Fate has a Thousand Blessings put But giving us Friends 'mong other Things There Fate has the Vse from You shut A Precious Good This I must say Both as to th' one and th' other way But yet I Doubt while Both are Blest Whether your Share or ours be Best This is well applied said Cleander but you shall see Madam that your Memory tho never so good deceives you this time more than mine for the two other Stanzaes which follow but which I do not remember and begin But yet I am Alas deceiv'd destroy those two former and shew that a King who understands King-Craft may be Amiable tho he is Formidable and that i●… he blends Justice Wisdom and Goodness in●… all his actions he finds a Veneration and Tenderness for him in all hearts and may boast of having as many Friends as Subjects This it is replied I laughing to be unseasonably a pretender to ingenuity I renounce citing any thing as long as I live Be it as it will said Cleander Friendship has need o●… some equality but 't is rather an equality which it self makes than an equality which it finds in it Let us examine the most famous Friendships we shall almost every wher●… find two friends equal and yet one friend superiour and the other inferiour by much There can hardly be imagined a real Friendship between Alexander and Caesar between Cicero and Demosthenes Scipio and H●…ibal they are Rivals rather than Friends But the Military Vertue of Scipio will comply with the Wisdom and Softness of Laelius Cicero●… the most able that ever was in the Art of Speaking will find his satisfaction in the person of Atticus who was no less excellent in the Art of holding his Peace and Alexander will take delight in making another Alexander of Ephestion We cannot doubt interrupted I but that some of those friends you speak of were superiour and the
elsewhere so many things to be desiderated in him that his Victory would not give him so much pleasure as might be imagined For my part said the lovely Cephisa judging pretty often of things by the event I always rejoice at what seems to be for my advantage For the right course of passing our days with delight is to proceed no further than the superficies of things by reason that as soon as you penetrate a little further even in Pleasures you meet with some bitterness as in some fruits which are hardly to be tasted to find 'em good What the fair Cephisa affirms said the wise Timocrates has more sence than it may seem to have That I grant said Telesila yet with this exception that I do not think we ought hardly ever to judge of any thing by the event But as for that superficies of things which Cephisa says we must content our selves with if we would spend our days in delight It may well be she has reason for it I believe in point of love said Aratus this to be very convenient for a little love diverts extreamly and a great Passion incommodes I did not well explain my self ●…eply'd Cephisa for I do not mean we ought only to have the superficies of things I say that in others we ought to look no further than that if we would not bring upon our selves a thousand vexations Thus if we are fond of seeing Lovers we must believe that all we see in them is Love If we would have friends we must content our selves with the testimonies of friendship which they give us without going to examine if they are sincere For if once you get a fancy of knowing them well those Lovers and those Friends will very often disappear and you will only find indiscreet or unconstant Lovers and faint ungrateful or perfidious Friends In a word we our selves must never destroy our Pleasure and we must peaceably enjoy what we find sweet and innocent in life But if that be so said Telesila we shall be eternally exposed to be deceived or else we shall have no friendship without it be a superficial amity as is that which has produced it For how is it possible to love that which we do not know Ah! my dear Telesila replied Cephisa do not tell me we can't love what we do not know For I 'll prove that all the World love themselves yet none know themselves All the Company laugh'd at what Cephisa said Certain it is said then the wise Timocrates that it is more difficult to know our selves well than to know others tho it be also full as necessary I grant said Lysiades that it is very necessary to know our selves well But I do not imagine it to be so difficult as to know others For I do not hide my self from my self as others use the disguise We must divine to know the hearts of others and need only observe our own to discover its most secret motions Ah! Lysiades rejoyn'd Telesila the difficulty of what the wise Timocrates says consists in having the will to know our selves and in doing what is requisite that we may not be deceived in that design and to get rid of I know not what secret Charm which inclines us to explain favourably all that we do even to the being prone to give good motives to ingratitude For in short all People have a great Magazine of excuses for their own faults and imperfections And commonly the wisest too take greatest pains to seek for what may palliate For most part of the World never call themselves to any account they do what is pleasing or what is useful without making any other reflection The Ladies carefully consult their Glass for the making themselves fine They would hide even the least Freckle that is seen in their Complexion An hair out of order offends 'em and puts them out of humour and a thousand secret envies which their hearts are full of which make them speak ill of all other Beauties and render 'em sometimes unjust even to their best friends do not offend 'em in the least The truth is said Timocrates the greatest part of the World make no reflection upon themselves Yet People boldly affirm reply'd Cephisa they will love nothing without knowing what they love They blame those who do it and yet as I have already said they love themselves more than all the rest of the World and tho they do not know themselves they esteem and commend themselves without knowing why and they seek to deceive others and to deceive ' emselves likewise It seems without doubt very strange said the wise Timocrates that the most part of Men and Ladies particularly those who live in the tumult of the World spend all their lives without admiring the Sun Moon or Stars tho there is nothing so fine in all nature Nor do they treat better all the other Wonders of the Universe and look upon all these things as made for their use and pleasure without any other reflection They likewise say when you speak to them thereof that the reason which hinders them from admiring so many marvellous things is that they still see and have daily seen them from the moment they were born But this reason ceases in their own regard For they have seen themselves from the time they were able to see and see ' emselves still every day yet they admire themselves without ceasing 'T is without question for that they do not know themselves said Aratus True admiration answered Timocrates does not proceed from what we do not comprehend Those sort of things cause astonishment and not admiration Nay for to admire with reason it is requisite to know a great part of the good Qualities of the things we admire But there must however still remain somewhat to discover that may be conceived as a thing very extraordinary and this is properly what causes that excessive esteem which turns into admiration I am very glad said the charming Clorelisa I have learnt how I must admire with reason For I perceive I have hitherto been something prodigal of my admiration For my part said Telesila it would please me more if Timocrates would teach me how to know my self for if it is that self-love which blinds and hinders us from knowing our selves well from whence comes it that the kindness we have for our friends makes us sometimes see more clearly their imperfections tho we excuse them Insomuch that loving our selves yet more than we love them we ought to see our selves more clearly if it be true that amity gives an insight as I fancy it does What you say reply'd Timocrates is true in some persons Friendship either opens Peoples eyes or shuts them and generally speaking it extenuates the imperfections of those we love But what makes us know others better than we do our selves is that the familiarity we have with our own inclinations does disguise them to us Nothing is new to us in our own
and write to 'em obliging things There are some from whom we are willing to receive good offices and yet have no mind to return 'em the like others whom we converse withal tho they tire us Others whom we find diverting and yet we do not esteem 'em and others to whom we impart forged secrets that we may draw from them such as are true In a word if we make a strict search I am certain we shall find a great Troop of friends amidst whom it would be difficult to make a good choice All the company confessed that the Novelty of the expression which Cephisa had made use of was more proper than they at first imagin'd when she said that she had many friends she did not love But after all said Telesila let us return to the art of knowing ones self well and desire Timocrates to continue the instructing us in it something more at large Methinks Madam said Aratus very galantly 't is mighty dangerous for all your friends that you should be well acquainted with your self For if Timocrates can bring it to pass that you should know exactly what you are you will have so great a contempt for all the rest of the World you will not be able to endure it I should be very cautious rejoyn'd Timocrates of teaching her so necessary an Art if I thought she could make an ill use of it For my meaning is that a rational person by learning to know his own imperfections ought to learn at the same time to support those of others As for the rest this Art varys according to persons Such a Man may know himself better by the report of others than by himself But it is sufficient as I have said to have the will of knowing without flattering our selves and to set upon observing our selves mainly in things which our inclinations are most prone to and calling our selves to an account of what we have done that we may discover precisely the true motives thereto For there are such sudden Sentiments in our mind that tho they succeed one another yet we know only the last that sets us on acting However to judge well of an action 't is necessary to know 'em all This little study has its delights when we are accustom'd to it Sometimes you 'll find that we hate some People because we love others and that all the Passions disguise themselves We must therefore seek out the source of them if we have a mind to know 'em thoroughly People may even follow Vertue by motives unworthy of it Ill Causes may in some Encounters have good effects but the good can very rarely have such as are bad Wherefore we must always if possible have good intentions in all things Love which seems to be of all Passions the most easie to discover has very obscure causes as well as the rest Men sometimes accuse fair cyes whose weakness is often in the heart they have wounded There are Loves of temperament inclination habit acknowledgment cap●…ice interest vanity and of a hundred other kinds So that when we would subdue this Passion necessary it is to know its true source But amongst all the Passions that which is least known by those it does possess is Avarice None of a covetuous humour think they are so They only fancy themselves good Husbands prudent and able They have sometimes the confidence to tell themselves to conceal the sordidness of their Sentiments that they are only the Depositaries of the benefits which God has bestowed upon them They call those Prodigal who are Liberal They think all is lost that is given aud know no other felicity than that of having useless Treasures The truth is said Aratus I know covetous People who fancy they merit infinite praises for those very things for which they are condemned by all the World You do well said Clorelisa agreeably to say that you know Covetous People For you your self are not acquainted with Avarice You I say who have given away considerable Treasures which the King of Egypt bestowed upon you I assure you replied Aratus I am less to be commended than you imagine and I can say what Cyrus once answered to one of his Ministers who represented to him that he gave all he had to his Courtiers I do not give it them said he I only leave it'em to keep If I should have occasion for it at any time they will restore it me with Usury and I shall gain their hearts at a cheap rate All the World knows what we are to believe in this point said Telesila but I am very desirous Timocrates would tell us how we may know Envy for I believe it very difficult to discover You have reason to say so Madam replied he and very often an envious person thinks he loves Vertue and hates Vice when he speaks ill of those whom he bears an envy to and in whom he seeks for imperfections which he would be very sorry not to find The Source of Envy pursured Timocrates is properly an ill grounded Pride which is the reason that those persons who are capable of it instead of seeking to become more perfect seek to Tarnish the good Qualities of those they esteem more than themselves tho they do not know it and this secret Malignity dissuses it self from their Heart not only into their imagination but into their Senses They neither see nor understand things any more as they are and their own Reason being seduced by the false representations of the Senses it makes them afterwards commit a thousand injustices My Opinion is said Cephisa that we may see things otherwise than they really are Not that added she I am very envious on the contrary I love very much to praise but I am very easie to be offended When I am in anger I know no more what I see and if Telesila had displeas'd me all perfect as she is I should have found her very different from what you see her I should find her pale instead of finding her fair I should think her too witty I should call her Modesty coldness and indifference in short I should figure to my self a Telesila that would not be at all like her For my part said Aratus I am not of your disposition For if I imagin'd I had any reason to complain of the beautiful Telesila I should think she had some concealed reason to use me ill I should examine my own imperfections and should rather accuse my self than accuse her I am not at all of that humour said Aristippus I always accuse my self the last and I rather blame Fortune than my self In love replied Lysiades I rather tax my Rival than my Mistress But in friendship I take time to deliberate before I accuse my Friends but when I am once perswaded they have been really faulty I hate 'em as much as I lov'd them before and can never be prevailed with to grant 'em my pardon This Sentiment said Telesila does not in the least
become you Lysiades and in my Opinion People may cease loving nay they may hate but we are never to be irreconcileable in friendship and it is only in love that an eternal contempt is just when the Party has broke off with a just cause I say an eternal contempt pursued she and not an eternal hatred For it would be to do too much honour to a Faithless Lover for a Mistress to hate him all her life In case the Conversation continues but a little longer said Cephisa we shall not only know our selves but we shall know one another better than we did For insensibly and without thinking of it we speak all we think Yet I fancy reply'd Aratus there are more persons than one in the company who say not all they think For my part said Aristippus I am perswaded if all Men took as much pains to know themselves as Timocrates would have them and afterwards for the better regulating their conduct they would endeavour to know others too all Sciences would be banished for their Lives would not be long enough And as an excellent Man of my acquaintance has said very well He that would learn t' enjoy a wealty Store Of Golden Years must live Two full Lives o're This is not so difficult as you may imagine said Timocrates and the Sciences are not obstacles to this knowledge But if any of 'em were necessarily to be banished for the retaining of this I should rather banish Physick though so necessary for it only teaches to cure the Maladys of the Body whereas the knowledge of ones self tends to the curing the Diseases of the Soul Astrology gives us a Thousand ingenious Opinions for Truths and Predictions uncertain and useless which tend only to the raising disquiet For my part said Aristippus let who will or can know himself I will have none of that knowledge I am not like you said Telesila for there is nothing I so much desire as to know exactly if I am not deceived in the Opinion I have of my self and I have a great mind to confide my self so far in the wise Timocrates as to tell him all my thoughts in that case that he may undeceive me if I am in an errour For as he has known me from my Infancy he will quickly see if I am in an errour What you say has more vanity than you imagine said Cephisa smiling But since you are as desirous to know your self as I am to know others let us not so suddenly abandon this subject Let 's see if this knowledge is possible and then we will try if it be as useful as the wise Timocrates affirms Do not doubt it replied he and to say yet more I boldly assert that the great succession of Victories which our Prince has gained is not the effect of a certain happiness which has made it often said even to the becoming a Proverb that Success in War is unconstant There is nothing therein but Conduct and good Concert with an exquisite judgment and a perfect knowledge of our advantages and of those of our Enemies of the Troops and Generals of both Parties of Places Seasons and of that number of circumstances weighed and balanced together Wherein the greatest ability of great Captains and great Kings does consist I apprehend as well as you said Cephisa that it is really that profound knowledge both of others and ones self which makes up the chief active Ingredient in most part of great things But the one seems to me much more difficult than the other For we know and are very sensible how far we our selves are able to proceed but are usually ignorant how far others are able to go I am not of your Opinion answered Telesila and yet fancy I am in the right If you please continued she we will examine whether you or I be of reason's side And to pry further into this business we will examine whether it be more useful to know our selves than to know others I am content replied Cephisa But for the keeping some Order said Timocrates with a smile 't is necessary that Telesila and Cephisa be the only persons who maintain this cause and that the Company should be the spectators of this Dispute as they have been of the Combats of the Nemaean Games Since Cephisa finds I have not sufficiently explain'd what I have said resum'd Timocrates it is requisite to examine which is the most difficult Telesila out of Modesty would not engage her self in this Dispute But the Company gave sentence she should and Cephisa according to her facetious humour made no difficulty at all But then for the prescribing some Order as I have said resum'd Timocrates we must first examine which is the most difficult to know our selves or to know others and then we will see afterwards which is the most useful As for my part said Cephisa without giving us leisure to speak I see so much difficulty in knowing others and methinks I know my self so well that I do not ponder one moment to decide this Question There are a thousand difficulties pursued she to penetrate into the hearts of others After ten Years Acquaintance and Friendship we discover imperfections that we had not yet perceiv'd What you say does often happen answered Timocrates But often likewise 't is not but that we knew those friends when we believed we knew 'em the reason is they changed thro some unusual cause and having ceased observing 'em with the same care that was had in the beginning because we believed they would be still the same we did not take notice of an imperceptible change which augmenting every day does at length make it self remarkable Wherefore I maintain that commonly those defects which we perceive are now and not newly discovered and I am perswaded that when we apply our selves strongly to know any one we succeed in our design And I said Cephisa maintain that we hardly ever perfectly know any body The knowledge of People with whom we oftnest converse is but an act of conjecture wherein we are easily mistaken Words actions the greatest services all may be deceitful A thousand reasons make some frequently mask themselves to their best friends Vertuous they seem and are not they speak of sincerity without having any They are sometimes franc and open but not so always They think they are beloved and love without reserve and in the sequel Fortune overturns all this without either the one or the others knowing from whence this subversion proceeds They no longer know those People they fancied they knew so well and all is to begin again All you say is true replied Telesila Besides what makes the impossibility of knowing others perfectly is that we do not look into our selves sufficiently and we all most ever see our selves disguised See a Courtier before his Master a Lover before his Mistress a friend with his friend is he the same Man that he is really in himself Is it possible to discern
what he is from what he appears We cannot know the heart but by words and actions Yet as we know but imperfectly the true motives of 'em we may say 't is possible for us to know what those People do we are acquainted with and to make the History of their Lives but never truly to know the History of their Hearts One and the same action may be reputed good or bad according as we consider it A friend exactly sincere in giving Counsels sometimes appears a less agreeable friend than a dexterous flatterer 'T is almost requisite to become the continual spy of ones best friends to know 'em well 'T is requisite to know perfectly that great Art of Conjecturing whereof we have already spoken and when you shall have known it and imagine that you know those so well whom you shall have so carefully observed who has told you as has been justly remarked that you will know 'em always Absence Good Fortune the Court Interest Love Ambition all do or may change them And the Judgment finding still a new accusation grows weary desponds and ceases to pursue knowing what it thought it knew at once for ever After this do not you conceive there is a great deal of boldness in those who boast they know perfectly the People they converse withal who fancy they can penetrate the Vails of Dissimulation discern an Hypocrite from a truly honest Man a dexterous Cheat from a prudent Man a wise from a cunning Woman Ah! As for cunning resum'd Cephisa methinks 't is easie to be discerned But after all I agree it is not easie to know others either in Love Friendship or Probity and in general the heart of Man is imp●…netrable You must at the same time allow rejoyn'd Telesila 't is almost more difficult to know ones self well But is it possible said Cephisa you can assert so unlikely a thing Do not I see into my own heart Not at all replied she 't is it seduces you and makes you often not know your self First of all added Telesila you must necessarily grant that much more care is taken to know others than our selves All the World out of Interest Curiosity or a good Opinion of their own Wit would dive into the hearts of others without making any reflection upon their own They think they know themselves and so are at rest They esteem and sometimes admire ' emselves with some injustice and as it were sleeping upon that esteem they are always hot in the pursuit of the knowledge of others and profoundly ignorant as to what they are themselves What you say is very true said Timocrates and we may likewise add that this false knowledge we have of our selves makes us often judge of 'em by our our own Sentiments For unquestionably we are not to make our selves the Standard whereby we may know others well Be it as it will said Cephisa I know perfectly I am no Coquette nor am I given to detracting I agree to what you say resum'd Telesila we may know the ill Qualities we have not because they are strangers to us But we are often ignorant of those we have because they are natural to us For in short there is a certain self-love concealed in our hearts which makes continual illusions in our minds without our perceiving 'em tho others deceive us when we would know 'em but we deceive our selves sometimes without thinking ' of it and sometimes out of a premeditated design We as it were fly our selves when we would not find we are in the wrong We diminish our imperfections magnifie our good Qualities flatter and disguise our selves In a word we love our selves almost more than we love others and we represent our selves so as is most pleasing and not as we really are And tho we are even convinced of our own defects and can no longer doubt of 'em yetwe deny them still we seek and torment our selves till we have found out some expedient for the attributing of 'em at least to a good cause The falsest praises have the power of giving a real pleasure we know they are groundless yet byhearing 'em often we come to be insensibly perswaded they are true But is it possible interrupted Cephisa you do not think you know your self I think reply'd Telesila sincerely that I know my self better than the most part of the World know ' emselves But in general I believe we always deceive our selves in some things when we would judge of our selves Thus I do not answer but I have more imperfections than I think I have There is but one thing wherein I am sure I do not deceive my self which is that my friendship is more tender more disinterested more faithful and more incapable of Change than any others I believe what you say reply'd Cephisa but I believe also I know most accurately what I am There is however some appearance interrupted Timocrates looking upon Cephisa that you do not know all your merit For you would be as much Vain as you are Modest. Remember Timocrates reply'd she smiling you forrnerly imposed upon us this Law That we should always speak sincerely Thus let not me be the subject of our discourse for fear sincerity should not prove to my advantage and let us only agree of the impossibility of knowing others perfectly and of knowing 'em always For in my Opinion I have not strongly enough evinc'd how fond it is to think we can entirely know those with whom we live One Wit alon●… cannot equally well know sundry Wits at 〈◊〉 time So that we must be contented with an imperfect knowledge we may have of those with whom we converse which sometimes is of some service in the Commerce o●… the World and which is likewise injurious when we rely upon it too much Therefore I find we ought never in importan●… occasions blindly to lean upon our imagin●… knowledge and I am perswaded thos●… who have said for the first time that w●… must love so as that we may one day hate and hate as that we may love were of my Opinion But if you ever doubt of all said Timocrates to Cephisa you could have no friendship with any one Ah! Timocrates reply'd she we are not so wise in all things tha●… are agreeable or necessary 'T is well know●… thro all the World that the Sea is inconstant and dangerous and that Shipwrack are frequent there Yet the desire of growing rich or travelling makes People embark and go seek for Gold in the Indies And as it is much more necessary and also more agreeable to live with People of the World with the same confidence as if we knew 'em well we embark with them into all manner of Affairs at the hazard of being deceived in some one But as for the knowing of my self I do not see I can be ●…herein deceived I know what I think what love what I hate what I have a mind to ●…nd what not True reply'd Telesila you ●…hink
upon that point But this consormity of Sentiments which I bear to you in what concerns the King does not hinder me however from sticking to my own in what relates to our Contest 'T is credible reply'd Telesila laughing you will give me the same liberty you take and I may without displeasing you continue in my Opinion as well as you in yours For my part added Timocrates who have not absolutely declared my self I believe you will both agree that the greatest difficulty of knowing ones self proceeds from the same cause which makes that In sensible objects we see but confusedly those which are far distant and do not well discem those that are too near the sight For we may in like manner say that others are too far from us and we see our selves too near to know perfectly either what others or what we our selves are Timocrates had no sooner spoke these words than that all the Company fell to commending both Telesila and Cephisa As for my part said the latter laughing Methinks Telesila and I by speaking almost alone in the midst of so great a Company may be compared to certain Heroes in Romances who fight alone between two Armies and who come from the fight without being either Conquerors or Conquered Now as for Timocrates I look upon him as a Judge of the Field If it be so resum'd he I give the prize to Telesila as having well maintain'd the better side and yet I give many praises to Cephisa for having so ingeniously defended an ill Cause All the Company fell again to commending those two beautiful Persons After which the generous mistress of that delicate Wilderness led them back into the Magnificent Palace from whence they had come to take the Air. Against those who do not speak seriously of Religion AGathirsis having said something which seem'd disrespectful of the Religion of his Country Noromata interrupted him without permitting him to continue his Disccurse For Heavens sake Agathirsis said she to him Never say any thing to me contrary to the Veneration we owe the Gods and rid your self if possible of that ill Custom of always employing the Name of some one of our Deities only to assure some tristing piece of News For if you think our Gods are what we believe 'em you commit a terrible profanation and if you are not of that Opinion I do not see it does much warrant and confirm a thing to swear by their Name that it is true I should rather choose to swear by Agathirsis and by Eliorante she went on than by Mars and Hercules if I was of the Opinion of the greatest part of our young Courtiers who hardly believe they were so much as Men very far from believing they be Gods By what I perceive resum'd Agathirsis smiling in his turn you take me for an obstinate Libertine Not at all replied she for if I thought so you should not be my friend but I accuse you with reason for suffering your self to be led away by the ill Custom of those who do not always speak seriously nor respectively of Religious Matters and who for that it clashes with their reason cannot subject ' emselves to the general Opinion and will make to themselves a particular way It is however in my sence an ill way of reasoning to say we must not believe what we cannot comprehend since 't is true there are a thousand things in Nature which really are and which we do not comprehend And yet those very People who will not believe an invisible Divinity will believe every day upon the word of some Travellers very subject to relate incredible things what they tell us of that marvellous Stone called I think Heliotropium which Craesus has in his Treasure and which they pretend has the quality of rendring one invisible They also cannot but believe that the terrible Wind which roots up the greatest Trees is something real tho invisible it be since they themselves are sometimes thrown down by it Yet they know but very imperfectly what it is no more than what makes Snow white Hail hard Neretheless 't is true these People who believe several things they do not know yet insolently pretend to penetrate into the secrets of Eternity reform the best established Religions and over turn thro their caprices all the Temples and Altars in the World And all this because as soon as they do not believe there are Gods they believe that whatever pleases is permitted ' em But for your part Agathyrsis added Noromate whose Principles are innocent and vertuous and who have no need of perswading your self that the Gods neither punish nor reward for your living with more repose and liberty I advise you as your friend not to suffer your self to be hurried away by the ill Custom of the World Your Zeal is so eloquent resum'd Agathyrsis that I cannot resist it and I promise you I will endeavour now to do all I can to believe that Mars is jealous Vulcan lame and Venus did equally jilt 'em both or if I cannot I will not mention 'em at all Your speaking as you do reply'd Noromata is not the way to perswade me you will be reform'd for in promising not to rally any more you rally both witily and most maliciously at the same time without being willing to remember what our Priests often tell us that those sort of things have concealed sences which our curiosity cannot penetrate seeing Man is not capable of comprehending all their Mysteries For my part interrupted a Persian called Chrysantes who had a great deal of Wit and much Vertue I infinitely esteem the beautiful Noromata for opposing the Licentiousness of those who are called the Galants of the Age. For tho I am of a very different Religion from that of your Country since the true Persians adore nothing but the Sun and acknowledge but one Divinity which is the Universal Soul of the World I think it much more excusable to be of a bad Religion than to have none at all For generally most part of Men follow the Sentiments that are given to 'em at their Birth But when we are endued with true reason asson as we begin to have any understanding we ought to know there is something Unknown Great and Supernatural that governs the Universe Those whom the beautiful Noromata calls the Libertines of the Court resum'd Agathirsis cannot deny but there is something Eternal which has been without beginning and which by consequence ought to be without end But the difficulty is to know what is eternal Since you allow of this answer'd Chrysantes it is sufficient For is it not more easie to imagine an eternal understanding Being pardon me these great words Madam added Chrysantes looking upon Noromata than to conceive a Material Body which without any understanding should always subsist or should always have subsisted As ignorant as I am replied Noromata methinks I understand perfectly well what the wise Chrysantes says And so natural
it is for Men to adore something that Great Nations are seen to worship Beasts rather than adore nothing as is reported by those who have travelled into Egypt And indeed said Chrysantes no more natural it is to desire Life and fear Death than to believe there is a Deity the Structure of the World is so great so beautiful so regular that it is worthy of all our admiration The Sun Stars and Heaven in general do so far surpass our knowledge notwithstanding all the discourses upon 'em that we are constrained to acknowledge there is an infinite space between what we may know and what we do not know and from the highest Heavens unto the very Center of the Earth humane Reason finds a Hundred Abysses wherein it loses its self Why do you think added Chrysantes that Men are inclin'd to adore Beasts and sometimes Stones rather than adore nothing 'T is only because they are naturally inclin'd to believe a Godhead But People of good sense agree that visible and terrestrial Objects cannot be truly the Objects of Worship Their Contests and their Diversities upon all these Objects shew that not one of all those Objects we see is truly and only adorable because if it was once shewn clearly and visibly it would certainly invite the Adoration of all the Earth And when I have told you the true Persians only adore the Sun I have told you at the same time we look upon it as the Soul of the World which is sensible to us and perswades us by all the Wonders wherewith it is filled This being so it must be allow'd there is a great deal of boldness and even folly to deny a Divinity since there 's no danger in believing there is one and a great deal in not believing there is The sole excellency of the Wit of Man proceeded Chrysantes ought to perswade him there is an Eternal Spirit superiour to his own For in short if there be no Rays but what depart from a Star and from a great Star there must needs be a Source from whence all humane reason does flow and the more that Source is unknown to us the more ought we to adore it Besides have not we in ourselves a proof of the Divinity We know for certain that we think that we reason But we know not very precisely what we do to think and to reason The Memory which is a Treasury of infinite Images which it keeps for us and restores to us when we have occasion for 'em is likewise one of those truths the cause whereof is very secret whatsoever the Science of Conjectures may say thereof Let us then avow there are true things which we know but by halves and it is to be worse than brute Breasts not to consider once in ones life what we are to believe and not believe and not to take the surest course But tho a Man should have understood all this said Agathyrsis would he apprehend very clearly that the God-ship you speak of concerns it self in the things here below and that after Death there are Punishments or Rewards Assoon as we agree reply'd Chrysantes there is an Almighty Divinity we ought to agree in all the rest For what appearance is there that this order so exactly kept in the construction of the World in general which can only be the effect of a Deity should be abandoned in the parts of its composition And what likelihood would there be too that the Universal Opinion of a second Life which is established amongst all People had no real foundation For in short there are some particular Men who do not believe what we ought to believe yet no whole Nation and so 't is no rule nor has any force against what I say It must likewise be granted that this intelligent Being which governs the World and takes care thereof ought to be at the same time just and not permit those Profligate Wretches who despise him and think only of doing mischief to Men should always be more happy than the good People who adore him and think only of doing good to others Therefore methinks 't is pretty easie to conclude a future life wherein Vice it punished and Vertue rewarded I also imagine said Eliorante whose Wi●… has much Solidity that we may boldly say there is no Opinion so universal for great things as that of a Divinity Now for example For the Government of People the Sentiments are very different There are Nations who elect Kings Others will have their Monarchy Hereditary Others will have no Kings at all and cannot resolve to obey one Man Those who are for Re-publicks differ in the Model of 'em some are desirous the Multitude should have the Sovereign Power Others to have a Counsel compos'd of the Wisest to rule 'em but as for a Deity all People are for it and acknowledge by this universal desire that there is really such a Being for 't is not natural to all Men to desire and believe a thing impossible otherwise Reason would be Folly No no interrupted Noromata it is not to be doubted but that there is a Divinity and be it what it will it governs the World and by a consequence which seems to me infallible there is a Second Life wherein Vice is punished and Vertue recompensed You have so much interest it should be so lovely Noromata resum'd Agathirsis that you ought to fear you are not prejudic'd But as for me whom you take for an Epicurean I ought not to have the same Confidence On the contrary reply'd Noromata I have told you from the beginning that your manners being so innocent as they are you ought not to take your repose in Sensuality Ah! Madam reply'd Chrysantes that is not the Course to find it The Libertines are not at case but when their thoughts only glance upon what they are and what they may be and it is absolutely impossible to be long in a sedate belief that there is no Divinity nor Second Life The most dissolute Libertines not tell all their doubts and disquiets The Passions and Disorders of their Lives do blind and hurry 'em away But notwithstanding all this there are some Moments wherein they see into the truth and assoon as they are in doubt they are miserable and know no more to whom to have recourse For my part said Noromata I am so much an Enemy to Nothing that this Antipathy I have to it is a kind of proof I shall never fall into it Is there any thing more just added she than to adore that Deity tho never so unknown to us if there was no Religion among Men there would be no Vertue in the World and the most savage and cruel Beasts would be less so than Men. And indeed added Noromata an implous person sometimes corrupts a whole great Court or City Judge then what it would be if all this great Nation was in such a Dissolution But Heaven has not permitted it to be so and will never
that his being so is no obligation to them The greatest part of Kings because they are born Masters of others imagine that they owe no reward to their faithful Subjects and that Tyranny is a Right of their Soveraignty They who govern Common-wealths are exposed to the Ingratitude of the People And those who have the chiefest employs in States of that nature imagining that those they govern can never blindly enough obey them never think of giving 'em any marks of acknowledgement Masters believe that Slaves are only born to serve without reward Slaves on the contrary are of opinion that their Masters ought to recompence them for the least things and ought to be continually a giving them The Friends we oblige knowing it is the duty of Friendship to serve those we love reckon all as nothing we do for them And those who oblige others expect on the contrary that every thing they do should be put upon the Account A Father in that he has given Life to his Children thinks they ought ever to be as dependant on him as they were while they were still in the Cradle and conning them no thanks for all they do to please him does nothing at all for them Children on their fide being perswaded that Birth is not the greatest obligation that can be had to their Parents are evermore murmuring at the Life they have given them when they do not for them all they are capable of doing Husbands whose Authority is established by Force and Custom thinking their Wives are too happy in obeying 'em do not think themselves obliged by their Complaisance And Women who have Beauty or Virtue thinking their Husbands too much blessed in such Wives nothing can oblige 'em They are commonly Coquetts when they are beautiful or grumbling when they are Chaste Lovers themselves are ungrateful and more ungrateful than all others And indeed added Ami●…ar smiling if you heard but all the complaints they make you would think they had met with terrible injustice and cruclty and had never obtained any kindness Yet it very often happens that a Lover after having received a thousand and a thousand Favours makes a thousand and a thousand Complaints onely for that he has been look'd upon a little less favourably than at other times Insomuch as forgetting all the kindnesses he has received he grumbles threatens to pay his vows elsewhere and is perfectly ingrateful As for the fair Ladies pursued he I could cite a hundred Songs wherein they have the quality of Ingrateful given them For I know one which begins with Farewel ungrateful fair One Another with Vngrateful Phillis A third with All the Fair are all Ingrate In short Ingratitude is so general a thing that I almost conclude it would be convenient to do nothing for any one soever and for fear of doing something for an ungrateful person we ought to do nothing at all and resolve to live onely for Lifes sake without taking any care As for Ingratitude said AEmilius I own it does but too much abound I am of your opinion replied Herminius but there would be much less of it if there were no Laziness and no Idleness For commonly the lazy and idle are the most ungrateful and who pretending to the being obliged by all the world yet will oblige no body True it is said then Plotina you have all a great deal of Wit but methinks you are to day in a humour of having more than usual Wherefore I am desirous you would tell me two things which I long to know The first is to examine which is the most shameful to be lazy for want of Wit or for want of Courage And the second is to examine well all the several kinds of Ingratitude which the world is full of to know which is the greatest for there are many sorts of it For my particular I have a friend who keeps no account of the Services that are done her who forgets an hundred considerable Offices without ever thinking of acknowledging 'em who because she is beautiful and loves her Beauty more than her self if I may be allowed to speak in that manner never forgets a flattery or a praise and will do many more kindnesses for those who deceive her provided they praise her than for them who serve her effectually That often happens said Caesonia But before we fall to speak of Ingratitude let us speak a little of those Idle persons whose Idleness has divers causes I know some of 'em added she who are only so because they are Lazy for they have Wit they likewise shew on some occasions when forced to it that they do not want Courage and there are those too to be seen who have no ill habits Those people replied Herminius are altogether culpable For I know nothing more strange than to be useless to the world and useless to ones self than to have Wit and to do nothing with it than to have a certain indifferent Heart which makes people concern themselves in nothing have neither Ambition nor Love and live after so careless a manner as renders 'em incapable of any great Pleasures For my part I should rather chuse to apply my self to something that was not altogether good than to apply my self to nothing For my share replied Plotina I am of Herminius his opinion I find it much more shameful to be eternally idle for want of having the will of undertaking any thing than to do nothing for want of Wit For what can we accuse a poor dull fellow of who in taking any employ can 〈◊〉 shew his stupidity I likewise boldly say that those to whom the Gods have been sparing in the gifts and riches of the Mind are very happy when they make 'em Lazy into the bargain and so they remain concealed in obscurity This imperfection in them produces the same effect that Prudence does in others since it hinders 'em from shewing themselves in the world And indeed no Body but knows there are people who would never be spoken of if they were not in great employments and of whom a thousand disadvantageous things are said because they acquit themselves ill of what they have rashly undertaken Set a Fool to the managing Affairs of State and a Coward to command an Army and you will say that it would be well if there were more idle persons than there are For the Idle never do hurt to any but themselves And those who have employs which they are not worthy of very frequently overturn the order of the World They make War when they ought to make Peace they make Peace when they should make War and not knowing what they do it would be much better they did nothing at all Wherefore after having weigh'd it we●…l in my thoughts I am of Opinion it would be much more proper to complain of those busie Fools than of those wretched Idle people who onely seek rest and quiet and who very often by taking rest do much better than they
the boldness to confess he was culpable of it Men sometimes own that they are Ambitious are Cholerick are Revengeful There are also such people as boast of their being Cheats and think it commendable they have circumvented others But men never confess they are ungrateful Thus we must absolutely condemn Ingratitude wheresoever we meet with it But still it has different degrees said Plotina and I believe I may boldly maintain that it has nothing equal under the Sun In my opinion said Amilcar then we must divide the Ungrateful into three Orders For there are those that are ungrateful in Duty in Friendship and in Love The ungrateful in Duty are Kings Subjects Fathers Children Masters Slaves Husbands and Wives The ungrateful in Friendship are Friends of both Sexes And the ungrateful in Love are Lovers and Mistresses Amilcar is in the right said Herminius Not but that amid those who are called ungrateful in Duty there may be sometimes such as may be reckoned amongst the ungrateful in Friendship But generally speaking he has very well distinguished the Ungrateful and it onely remains to be examined who are the most culpable For my part said Amilcar I believe the ungrateful in Duty are the most criminal For my particular said Caesonia I should almost think the ungrateful in Friendship so And said AEmilius I am perswaded 't is the ungrateful in Love That I imagine as well as you replied Herminius and you have onely got the start of me in speaking that truth If there was a fourth side to be taken said Plotina I would willingly take it but as there is not I will first hear all your Reasons before I come to a Resolution As for mine said Amilcar smiling I shall quickly have done since I have nothing else to say than that Love cannot be brought into comparison with that kind of Duty we speak of For men who have made Laws to teach Kings to govern and People to obey have made none for the teaching 'em to acknowledge Love And all the Morals of the Goddess that is ador'd in Cyprus is onely to be met with in Songs The same reason resum'd Herminius which obliged the wise Numa to make no Laws against Parricides has without doubt obliged all those who have made Laws to say hardly any thing of Love in regard as Numa presupposed that there could not be any Parricide they have presupposed there could not be any ingratitude in Love Let it be how it will said Amilcar laughing I did not undertake to lay before you the whole state of that business but onely what I think of it I say then that considering Love as a Gallantry I do not hold that the ungrateful who are of that Order are the blackest and I think the ungrateful in Friendship are worse than them though they are not so bad as the ungrateful in Duty of whom I am speaking And truly if it be necessary to consider the consequence of Ingratitude to know the greatness of it it must be Confessed that Ingratitude in Love is so very far from troubling civil Society that it diverts the world For commonly Amorous Ingratitude gives occasion to very fine Verses As for that which happens between two Friends though it be horrible does but at the most cause Hatred to succeed Friendship and does but divide some Families But the Ingratitude of ill Kings towards their Subjects if the respect we owe to them will allow me to speak in that manner makes a thousand Injustices to be committed And that of the People towards Kings raises Seditions Revolts and eternal Wars The Ingratitude of Parents to Children and Children to Parents stifles all sentiments of Nature That of Husbands to Wives and Wives to Husbands causes almost all the Criminal Amours and all the Heroick Actions Judge then if I was mistaken when I said that the Ungrateful in Duty were the most dangerous I know not whether or no they are the most dangerous replied Caesonia but I maintain that an ungrateful person in Friendship can never be a real honest man and that it is not sometimes impossible but an ungrateful person in Duty may be so For Kings there may be who shall have no acknowledgement for the particular Services that are done them who think more of their People and yet are very great Princes And indeed if all Kings did positively love their Subjects as a good Father ought to love his Children and would acknowledge exactly the Services that are done them they would never make War but in their defence and they would leave them peaceably to cultivate their Lands without ever undertaking to make Conquests There may likewise be Ingratitudes of Ambition which are not so black as the Ingratitudes of Friendship All those who first began to raign and laid the first foundation of Soveraignty have been ungrateful to their Country However when it was brought to pass that maen Citizens became great Kings and Fortune has justified their ingratitude they have been set in the rank of Heroes But as for an ungrateful Friend he has ever been set in the Form of the base and unworthy As to Parents and Children Husbands and Wives 't is pr●…ncipally onely because they ought to love one another that Ingratitude is most odious when it happens amongst them And truly though I am perswaded that Children must always respect those to whom they owe their Lives and obey them yet I hold that when they have to do with one of those Fathers who strain the Fatherly part too high and acting continually with authority never do any thing out of tenderness they may be in some sort excusable when they have not for him all the acknowledgement imaginable though I agree they ought ever to honour and serve them But in short there is a certain decent respect and reasonable Obedience which is very different from those that are caused by a true acknowledgement What I say of Parents and Children may likewise be said of Husbands and Wives Besides there is still a reason which renders Ingratitude more horrible betwixt Friends than between those I have now spoken of And indeed Kings do not chuse their Subjects all Subjects do not chuse their Kings Neither do Parents chuse their Children nor Children their Parents Interest commonly makes all Marriages rather than Reason or Love Thus when all these persons are wanting in acknowledgement though they be ever very culpable yet they are less faulty than ungrateful Friends Chiefly because not loving they lessen the value of the Obligations they have to one another for thinking they owe less 't is not so strange that they dispence themselves from part of what they owe. As for Lovers though their Ingratitude is to be abhor'd we may 〈◊〉 say that since people do not love whom they please they cannot be obliged to it against their will We may likewise adde that Love prepossessing al●… those 〈◊〉 has in hold when the prep●…ss ssion ceases on one side it begins on
onely in hopes you will save that of Aristocrates and I thank you on her behalf with all possible acknowledgement I have not the power to tell you my own Sentiments in the uncertainty I am under of the success of the finest action in the world and I leave Theolinda generous Theramenes to tell you better my sence in this sad occasion And indeed I wrote to Theramenes after a more endearing manner but before he could receive our Letters a great deal of time was spent for that young Slave was seized on by the Governour of a Castle because it was known he had passed through Athens So as that he was kept to be purified in a Separate Lodging During that time Melicrita suffered all the grief that Friendship and Love can inflict by the sentiments of Fear she had both for Aristocrates and for Theramenes But at last though a pretty while after we received a Packet from Aristocrates without knowing from whence it came For he who brought it had received it from another It was I who opened it I first saw a Letter from Arostocrates to Stenobia but very short I gave it her and she commanded Melicrita to read it to her She found therein these words Aristocrates to Stenobia I awe my Life to the most generous of all men But I owe at the same time Melicrita to Theramenes He has not asked her of me out of the respect he had for her but having been informed that he has been long in love with her and having nothing more precious to give him I design her for him Dispose her to obey me The least she can do for him to whom she owes her Life is to consent that I give her to him who has preserved mine Stenobia transported with Joy look'd upon Melicrita and told her she did not believe it necessary for her to joyn her Commands to those of Aristocrates But to tell you the truth Melicrita's Heart was so sensibly touch'd she was not able to speak and yet her former Sentiments in the midst of her Joy made a shift to find some place in her mind She answered with great modesty and submission to Stenobia adding onely that since Theramenes had not yet demanded her of Aristocrates there was nothing to be decided in the case During that I read what Aristocrates wrote to me I saw by his Letter that assoon as Theramenes had seen him cured he had taken the resolution to go to the Army without daring to write to Melicrita or come to see her for fear of bringing the bad Air. Insomuch that after having satisfied the Love he had for Melicrita he was resolved to go where the love of his Country called him He had received a thousand Caresses from Aristocrates but had said nothing to him concerning Melicrita And it was not till after his departure that a friend of Theramenes who was come to see him from the Army acquainted him with his Passion for his Daughter So that Theramenes though very glad in having saved his Mistresses Fathers Life was still ignorant whether this would render him the more happy for he had not yet received our Letters He durst neither write to us nor come to see us and in short he went away very sad and disconsolate As the Pestilence was in the Camp as well as at Athens he was afraid of letting us hear from him He signalized himself in the Army assoon as he was there but he unfo●…unately engaged himself so far in one Encounter that neither his own Valour not even that of Socrates could hinder his being taken by the Enemies after having been dangerously wounded I leave you to think Madam what was Melicrita's grief when upon Aristocrates his return we were acquainted with Theramenes's Wounds and Imprisonment This grief was so much the more sensible in that it had succeeded the extream Joy which she had for her Fathers arrival whom she tenderly loved and by whom she was likewise tenderly beloved She had at least the Consolation of having the liberty to shew part of her grief For Aristocrates was so afflicted and Stenobia also that they would have taken it very ill if Melicrita had not shared in their affliction But as she is a very discreet and modest Person she onely let 'em see a grief of acknowledgement if I may so term it But when we were alone she afflicted her self to excess She accused her self of being the cause of Theramenes's misfortune and was not to be comforted In the mean while Aristocrates took all the care imaginable to know what state his Wounds were in though it was something a difficult matter for that he was carefully guarded by the Enemies But as Love attains all it aims at Theramenes gained one of his Guards encharged him with a pacquet which that same Keeper had furnished him with an opportunity to write and sent it me We were then in the Country There was one Letter for Aristocrates one for Melicrita and another for me That of Aristocrates was full of Esteem Friendship and Respect Mine all full of Intimacy and that to Melicrita of an amorous and tender style but still despairing of his happiness and desiring nothing but Death if he could not be happy by her own will For though he knew not what Aristocrates had done in favour of him yet he was of opinion he would hardly have refused him Melicrita if he had asked her of him But Madam not to abuse your Patience I will tell you that from time to time we had news from Theramenes but we found it impossible to let him hear from us Yet he had one Consolation for the young Slave we had sent back to him and who had been stayed by reason of the Pestilence having at length been delivered and had information of his Masters being in Prison he was so zealous for him that he went to the place where he was in Custody As he knew the Language of the Country he pretended to have made his escape out of the hands of the Athenians and in short went so dexterously to work that he became one of Theramenes his Guards and delivered him the Pacquet he had in charge Melicrita's Letter and mine revived his hopes but nothing could then restore him to his Liberty though all things were offered to the Enemies for that purpose This put Melicrita into so profound a melancholy that her Health was altered The Pestilence diminished by little and little and did at length quite cease at Athens Nevertheless I could not resolve to return thither so soon but I took the resolution of going to the Bath and Stenobia and Aristocrates forced Melicrita to go along with me But as the Peace was concluded at that very time Theramenes was set at liberty and he went to Aristocrates thinking to have found Melicrita there likewise Aristocrates received him as a man to whom he owed his Life Stenobia made him a thousand Caresses And as Aristocrates was penetrated with the service