must it not Phi. It must Theo. And the fact is as lawfull in Princes when they punish schismatikes heretikes and Idolaters as when they punish adulterers theeues and murderers Phi. What else Theo. And if they leaue such impieties against God vnpunished they do not that duetie which God requireth of them Phi. All this wee grant Theo. Will you not recall it when we come to the push Phi. Recall it As though this could hurt vs Theo. Since you promise not to recall it I will trust you for this once and will come to the true difference betwixt your opinion ours You flatly confesse and the generall practise of your Church is that Princes of duetie should and lawfully may punish all spiritual ecclesiasticall offences namely Apostasie Idolatrie sorcerie sacrilege schisme heresie and such like impieties against God and his Church as well as ciuill disorders and iniuries against our neighbours Can you denie this Phi. I can not Theo. Wee confesse the same Let it stand irreuocable for both sides Phi. Agreed But remember they bee punishers not determiners of those thinges Theo. I said punishers if you looke to my words Phi. I grant that doctrine to bee good and sound Theo. Then foorth What you say Princes may punish we say Princes may prohibite Prohibiting is lesse than punishing a meane to make subiectes do their dueties without punishing which euery Christian Magistrate shoulde rather embrace Princes by common iustice must open their mouthes to speak before they lift vp their handes to strike their lawes must bee knowen before their sword must be drawen to reuenge disobedience Nothing can be iustly punished except it bee first prohibited So that princes may punish those things ergo they may prohibite them Phi. Great reason Princes should warne their subiects as well as punish them Prohibiting is but forewarning what thinges they must auoyde lest they fall into the paynes prescribed Theo. If they may punish and prohibite that which is euill ergo they may commaund and establish that which is good in matters of religion Howe like you the sequele Phi. You thinke it holdeth by reason of the contrarietie that is betweene both parts Theo. All learning will tell you that contraries bee consequent to contraries If they may forbid and abolish that which is euil ergo they may bid and establish that which is good And so S. Augustine coupleth them You hearde the places before As a king hee serueth God by making Lawes commaunding iust thinges and prohibiting the contrarie And againe Kings as they bee kings serue God as they bee willed by God if in their kingdomes they commaunde that which is good and prohibite that which is euill not in ciuill affayres only but in matters also touching diuine religion They serue not God by prohibiting euill except they likewise commaund that which is good in diuine religion By duetie they must by consequent they do both How thinke you say we not trueth Phi. I see your meaning You would haue Princes commaund in matters of religion Theo. Wee would haue them in those thinges to commaund that which is good as well as prohibites that which is euill You graunt the later why should you sticke at the former Phi. Commaunding is a woord of too great authoritie Theo. Whether thinke you the greater with woordes to commaund or with deedes to compell Phi. Compelling is more than commaunding Theo. And hee that punisheth apparently compelleth Since then by your owne confession Princes may compell men by punishments from that which is euill to that which is good in matters of religion ergo they may much more command them that which is good Phi. You snare mee with wordes Theo. Doe I snare you with wordes when I say that Princes may commaund that which is good in matters of religion as well as punish that which is euill or do you rather harden your faces and whet your tongues against the Scriptures against the fathers against the lawes and Edicts of all godly Princes in all ages and Countries Looke no farther than to the places which I haue brought you as well out of the holy scriptures as ancient stories and lawes you shal find where princes commanded in causes ecclesiasticall I meane the very woord aboue three skore times If that bee not sufficient you shall haue three hundred when you will So that you make a bad march if you stand on this point with vs that Princes may not commaund that which is good in matters of religion Phi. You shall haue no such aduantage at vs. Wee knowe S. Augustine sayth When Emperours take part with trueth they commaund for trueth against error which whosoeuer contemneth hee purchaseth to himselfe iudgement And againe Emperours commaund the selfe same that Christ doth for when they commaund that which is good no man commaundeth by them but Christ. Theo. You did well to pull your fingers out of the fier you sawe it was too hoat for you S. Austen in that epistle which you quote vseth that very word twelue times to shew that Kings and Princes did and might COMMAVND in matters of religion Reade the twentie constitutions wherein Iustinian disposeth of crimes and causes ecclesiastical and see whether euery sentence be not a commaundement Or if that be too much ouerrun the 123 intitled of diuers ecclesiasticall Chapters and tell vs whether in that one constitution you do not finde aboue fourteene score imperatiue and prohibitiue verbs whereby the Prynce WILLETH PRESCRIBETH APPOINTETH COMMAVNDETH DISPOSETH of persons and causes ecclesiasticall And this you can not choose but perceaue except you bee voide of common sense that Princes vse not to perswade and intreate but require and command their subiects And therfore they must either not medle with matters of religion at all or els of necessitie they must commaund and afterward punish if their commaundement be despised Phi. Let it be so since you will needs haue it so but yet this doth not proue that Princes be supreme Rulers and masters of the faith and Church of Christ. Theo. You leape before you come to the stile Anon you shall heare what this doth proue but first Doe you graunt that Princes may commaund that which is good prohibite that which is euil in matters of religion Phi. What gaine you by that if I graunt it Theo. Take you no care for our gaines Do you graunt it or no Phi. What if I doe Theo. What if doth not answer my question speake off or on to that which I demaund Why be you so dainty to graunt that which you dare not deny Phi. Take your pleasure in that point and yet you shall misse your purpose Theo. My purpose is trueth which neither your high wordes nor indirect shifts shall disappoint You spend time with delaies we might otherwise sooner end Phi. Will you answer as briefly when I aske you the like Theo. If I doe not charge me with myne owne wordes Phi.
wils you be deceiued not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God which maketh those willing at last which were vnwilling at first Did the Niniuites repent against their willes because they did it at the compulsion of their king What needed the kings expresse commandement that all men should humbly submit themselues to God but that there were some amongst them which neither would haue regarded nor beleeued Gods message had they not bene terrified by the kings edict This Princely power and authoritie giueth many mē occasion to be saued which though they were violently brought to the feast of the great housholder yet being once cōpelled to come in they find there good cause to reioyce that they did enter against their willes When Petilian obiected that no man must be forced by lawes to doe well or to beleeue S. Austen replieth To faith in deed may no man vnwilling bee forced but yet by Gods iustice or rather mercy The breath of faith is chastened with the rod of affliction Because the best thinges are freely chosen with good lyking must not therefore ill deedes be punished by syncere Lawes You be not forced to doe well by these lawes that are made against you but forbidden to doe euill Preposterous were discipline to reuenge your ill liuing but when you first contemne the doctrine that teacheth you to liue well And euen they which make lawes to bridle your headynes are they not those which beare the sworde as Paul speaketh not without cause being Gods ministers and executors of wrath on him that doth ill Who list to be farther satisfied that Christian Princes may compel their subiects to the true worship of God prescribed in his word and punish the refusers let him read at large the places aboue cited or shortly consider that the spirit of God cōmendeth king Iosiah for making all Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand to the couenant which he renewed with God and COMPELLING ALL THAT WERE FOVND IN ISRAEL TO SERVE THE LORD THEIR GOD. So that you might haue well spared your wanton complaint to God and kept in your Crocodiles teares Your Soueraigne doeth nothing against you but what is agreeable to Gods and mans lawe consonant to the doctrine of our Churhes much easier than that which your selues practised on others neither is this our question what rites you consented vnto but what fayth Christ deliuered his Church in the writings of his Apostles and Euangelists for to that euery man which is baptised may bee lawfully forced by the Princes authoritie let him and his forefathers assent to what they list except you can proue that baptisme serueth no longer for a sacrament of Christian religion but goeth now for a Romish recognisance Phi. Our griefe of heart is much encreased either when we looke into other States and Countries as Germania Suitzerland Suecia Boemia and the like where though there haue bene great alterations in religion these late yeeres yet lightly none bee forced so but if they can not haue the exercise of their profession in one torritorie Canton towne Church or Parish yet they may haue it neere them in an other as also in all the Prouinces and Kingdomes subiect either to the Persians or the Turke at this day The old Christians be permitted to vse freely their deuotions or when we looke backe to the like distresses of Catholikes in old time when certaine Emperours were chiefe fautors of Arianisme and other Sectes who yet were often enduced of their naturall benignitie to yeeld certaine Churches or at lest Oratories in Churchyards and other places adioyning for the Catholique seruice in their dominions So did Constantius the Arian Emperour Valens graunt to S. Athanasius and his followers in Alexandria which Valens God plagued afterward because he would not suffer the same at Antioche Valentinian also the yonger profered the like to S. Ambrose in Millan Theo. Are you well in your wits to lament the lacke of that in this Realme which God in plaine words detesteth and with sore plagues reuengeth Haue you forgotten how sharply king Achab and the commons of Israel were reproued of Elias for that error He did not say why permit you not those that will to the Lord those that list to Baal but how long halt you betweene two sides or opiniōs If the Lord be God follow him forsaking al other if Baal be God get you after him Since then it is confessed on both partes yours and ours that there can bee no God saue the Lord and hee neuer ment to surrender any piece of his glorie but is so ielous of it that hee wil be serued and onely serued with all our heart mind and strength these things I say being out of question I recken it can not stande with a Princes duetie to reuerse this heauenly decree THOV SHALT VVORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOV SERVE with establishing two religions in one Realme the first authorized by Christ bequeathed in his testament to the Church the next inuented of Antichrist and flatly repugnant to the propheticall and Apostolicall scriptures For if God be trueth they which presume to worship him with lies as in contrarie faith must needes come to passe serue nowe not God but the deuill a lyer himselfe and the father of lyes whose seruice no Christian Prince may so much as tolerate What are saith Vincentius strange Gods but strange errors which the scriptures so cal figuratiuely for that heretiques reuerence their opinions no lesse than the Gentiles their Gods By the which wee learne that the first precept forbidding moe Gods than one barreth all other seruices of the same God saue that which himselfe hath appointed for himselfe It is the vilest basest kinde of idolatrie when men worship their owne fansies obseruing that for a religion which their deceiued and swelling minds imagine Then may not Princes winke at corrupt vitious religion which is an inward ghostly worship of Idoles seeing no man therefore no Prince can serue two masters the seruice that Princes yeelde Christ in respect of their royall vocation consisteth in making lawes for Christ which if they doe likewise for Antichrist it can not be salued but that they serue God and Mammon or rather cease to bee the seruaunts of Christ in that they renounce their master by seruing his aduersarie Nowe what accompt God will exact for his name blasphemed his sonne refused his sacraments prophaned his word exiled and what answere must be made for the ruine of faith haruest of sinne murder of soules consequent alwaies to the publique freedome of heresies I leaue to bee fully considered and wisely preuented by Christian Magistrates who must thinke that silence prouoketh sufferance boldeneth their subiectes to forsake God and his Church euen as in ciuill affaires the slacking of iustice doth maintaine disorder So that in this point your defender betrayeth his vnsetled humor which
the time long the Princes wise the factes knowen the Church of Christ honoured and obeyed those decrees It is no doubtfull question but a manifest trueth that the best Princes before Christ and after Christ for many yeares medled with the reformation of the Church and prescribed lawes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall S. Augustine accompteth them not vsurpers as you doe but happie Princes that imployed their authoritie to delate and spreade the true worshippe of God as much as they coulde and auoucheth plainely that God him-selfe speaketh and commaundeth by the mouthes and heartes of Princes when they commaunde in matters of Religion that which is good and whosoeuer resisteth their Ecclesiasticall Lawes made for trueth shall bee grieuouslie plagued at Gods handes Imperatores felices dicimus si suam potestatem ad DEI cultum maximè dilatandum maiestatis eius famulam faciunt Wee count Princes blessed if they bende their power to doe God seruice for the spreading of his true worshippe as much as they can Hoc iubent imperatores quod iubet Christus quia cum bonum iubent per illos non iubet nisi Christus Emperours commaunde the selfe-same that Christ doeth because when they commaunde that which is good it is Christ him-selfe that commaundeth by them And â— little after Attendite qua manifestissima veritate per cor regis quod in manu Dei est ipse Deus dixerat inista ipsa lege quam contra vos prolatam dicitis Marke yee with howe manifest trueth by the Kinges heart which is in Gods hande GOD himselfe spake in that verie Lawe which you saie was made against you And therefore hee concludeth Quicunque legibus Impâ—ratorum quae pro Dei veritate feruntur obtemporare non vult grande acquirit supplicium Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Princes which are made for the truth of God is sure to beare an heauie iudgement The Princes themselues will teach you that by their power they may by their charge they should medle with matters Ecclesiasticall The authority of our lawes saith Iustinian disposeth diuine and humane thinges Thence is it that we take greatest care for the true religion of God and honest conuersation of Priestes So likewise Theodosius and Valentinian Ea quae circa Catholicam fidem vel ordinauit antiquit as vel parentum nostrorum authoritas religiosa constituit vel nostra Serenitas roborauit nouella superstitione remota integra inuiolata custodire praecipimus Those thinges which ancient Princes haue ordained or the religious authoritie of our Progenitours decreed or our highnesse established concerning the catholike faith wee commaund you to keepe them firme and inuiolable all latter superstition remoued And this they recken to be the first part of their Princely charge Inter caeteras sollicitudines quas amor publicus peruigili nobis cogitatione indixit praecipuam Imperatoriae maiestatis curam esse praecipimus verae religionis indaginem Among the rest of those dueties which the common-wealth exacteth at our handes we perceiue the inquirie of true religion should be the chiefest care of our Princely calling Valentinian the elder though at first hee refused to deale with profound questions of religion yet after hee was content to enterpose his authoritie with others and to commaund that the faith of the Trinitie should be rightly preached the Sacrament of Baptisme by no meanes doubled The blessed Bishops saith he with Valens Gratian haue made demonstration that the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost be a Trinitie coessentiall nostra potentia eandem praedicari mandauit and our power hath commaunded the same truth to be preached And againe The bishop which shall reiterate holy Baptisme we count vnworthy of his place For wee condemne their error which treading the Apostolike preceptes vnder their feete doe not clense but rather defile those with a second washing that are once alreadie baptized Zeno seeking to reconcile the Bishops Clerkes Monkes and people of Egypt and Alexandria to the Nicene faith beginneth with these wordes For so much as wee know that onely faith which is right and syncere to bee the grounde staie strength and inuincible defence of our Empire wee haue alwaies emploied our desires endeuours and lawes that thereby wee might multiplie the holie Catholike and Apostolike church the perpetuall and vndefiled mother of our Scepter And Iustinus nephewe to Iustinian writing a publike Edict to all Christians concerning manie pointes of true Religion maketh his conclusion with these wordes Omnes eos qui contraria hijsce vel sentiunt vel sensuri sunt Anathemate damnamus alienos à sancta Dei Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia iudicamus Wee condemne them all as accursed that presentlie doe or hereafter shall thinke contrarie to these things we adiudge to haue no part in the holy Catholike and Apostolike Church of God This care to prouide and power to commaund for matters of religioÌ„ Princes as well in this realme as els where continued a thousand yeres after Christ. The Bishop of Rome himselfe 850 yeres after Christ promiseth all kind of obedience to the chapters and lawes ecclesiasticall of Lotharius his ancestours In Greece the Emperours lost not their authoritie to call Councels and establish trueth till they lost Empire and all More than thirtine hundred yeres after Christ Nicephorus highly commendeth a Greeke Emperour for his labors and endeuours in the Church affaires You haue saith he to the Prince restored the Catholike and vniuersal Church to her auncient state that was troubled with nouelties impure and vnsound doctrine you haue banished from her you haue purged the temple from heretikes that were corrupters and deprauers of heauenly doctrine not so much with a three corded whippe as with the worde of trueth You haue established the faith and made constitutions for it you haue walled about true godlines with mightie defences you haue repaired that which was ruinous Priestly vnction decaied you haue made purer than gold and by lawes and letters taught them sobriety of life and contempt of mony Wherefore their order is now sacred in the common wealth which in former times was degenerated infected with corruption of discipline and manners Yea when you sawe our true religion brought in danger by false and absurd doctrines you did most zealously and most wisely vndertake the defence of it And knowing very well that piety of it selfe the diligent care of Gods causes are the surest proppes of an Empire you tooke a diuine and passing wise course For by medling with these matters of religion you wanne great thankes of God and gaue him iust cause to bee fauorable to your praiers to direct al your doings and confirme and setle the Empire in your hands Canutus a King of this land not full 32 yeres before the conquest apparently proueth that Princes kept their authoritie to commaund for matters of religion more than a
thousand yeeres after Christ. His lawes made by a Councel of his sages at Winchester are yet extant Heare some of them and then tell vs whether he did meddle with ecclesiastical causes or no. First he commaundeth all men to loue one God for euer aboue all things and one rule of Christian religion wel and aduisedly to hold Item he willeth al men to discharge their functions specially the seruants of god Bishops Abbots Moncks Canons Nonnes to do their duties to liue according to their rules to make their praiers night and day for all Christian folke Item hee biddeth and on Gods behalf forbiddeth that any Christian man take to wife a kinsewoman within six degrees or his wiues kinswoman or his Godmother at the font or a professed Nonne or a diuorced woman or keepe harlots or haue mo wiues than one and that in lawfull mariage Item that holy dayes and fasting dayes be kept Sunday be kept holy from saturday noone till munday morning Fayres Courts huntings and worldly woorkes on that day to bee forborne Item that all fasts which bee bidden ember dayes and Lent bee kept and the feasts of our Lady and the Apostles to bee fasted saue Philip and Iacob euery friday to bee fasted except it bee holy day and no man to fast from Easter to Whitsuntide or from Christmas to the Octaues of the Epiphanie vnlesse hee will or it bee enioyned him Item that euery Christian prepare himselfe for the communion thrise a yere And truely keepe his othe and promise and loue God with an inward reuerence and heare diligently heauenly teachers and oft and many times search and looke on Gods Law his dictrine Item that euery Christian man learne so much that hee can the true fayth and the true vnderstanding thereof namely the Lordes prayer and the Creede Or else not to haue Christian buriall neither to bee admitted whiles he lyueth to the Lordes table nor to vndertake for others at the font or before the Bishoppe Item that Bishops be preachers and teachers of Gods Lawe and carefull followers of goodwoorkes Item that Witches sorcerers Idolaters periures strumpets breakers of order and wedlocke be banished the realme with other Lawes for tythes temples Church rightes trial of Clergie men accused and such like dueties and offences ecclesiasticall Phi. You presse me with a number of places that proue nothing against vs directly Theo. Take the weakest of them and see whether it will not inferre that Princes medled with causes ecclesiasticall Phi. We knowe they medled with them but not as supreme Gouernours of them Theo. I brought these places to refell that generall obiection which you framed out of Osius Leontius and others that Princes shoulde not medle with causes ecclesiasticall If you graunt they did and might lawfully meddle with such matters as the places which I bring do proue then by your owne confession Constantius was not reproued for medling with religion for so did other godly Princes that were not reproued but highly commended and honoured in the Church of Christ but rather he was reproued as I answered you at the first for his insolent and tyrannous kind of medling with these matters which was as I shewed you for that in his owne person hauing no skil nor experience in such cases he would needes end and determine all thinges according to his owne fansie without respect of right or trueth and execute the same with terrible force and rigor exceeding the boundes of all Christian humanitie Againe these later examples as well as the former import that Princes had all this while full power to plant and establish the Christian fayth in their realmes and to punish ecclesiasticall transgressions and disorders in all sorts of subiects Lay men and Clerkes which is all that wee seeke for and all that wee meane when wee make them Gouernours of their dominions in all causes both ecclesiasticall and temporall and since you can neither deny the lawes Edicts nor acts of Princes which wee produce to this purpose nor possibly shift them why doe you wickedly slaunder and malitiously peruert that doctrine which you shall neuer soberly confute Phi. You will haue Princes to bee supreme Gouernours in these cases this is it that wee most impugne Theo. Well then let vs goe by degrees Doe you graunt them to bee Gouernours in those cases Phi. What meane you by Gouernours Theo. Such as haue lawfull authoritie from God to commaunde for trueth and punish error Phi. Doe you make them Iudges and Deciders of trueth Theo. No but receiuers and establishers of it Phi. Yea but who shall tell them which is trueth Theo. That is not this question When wee reason whether Princes may commaund for trueth and punish error you must not cauill about the meanes to knowe trueth from error but suppose that trueth were confessed and agreed on and in that case what may Princes doe for trueth Phi. Mary Sir if trueth were not in strife the doubt were not so great Theo. If I shoulde aske you whether Princes may reuenge murders and punish theftes were this an answere to say but howe shall they knowe what murder is and who bee theeues No more when wee demaunde what duetie Princes owe to God and his trueth shoulde you stand quarelling what trueth is or howe trueth may bee knowen The Princes duetie to God is one question which wee nowe handle the way to discerne trueth from error is an other which anon shall ensue when once this is ended but first let vs haue your direct answere whether Princes may commaunde for trueth or no Phi. For trueth they may but if they take quid pro quo they both hazard them selues and their whole Realmes and for that cause we say they must bee directed by Bishoppes Theo. You slide to the second question againe before the first bee finished Stay for that till this bee tried You graunt that Princes may command for trueth Do you not Phi. Wee doe Theo. When you say they may commaunde for trueth you doe not meane this or that poynt of trueth but indefinitely for trueth that is for all parts of trueth alike without the which God can not rightly bee serued Phi. They may commaunde for all as well as for part if the Bishoppes neede their helpe in all Theo. And commaunding is not onely the free permitting of those that wil but the moderate punishing of those that will not For punishment is the due desert of him that neglecteth the commaundement which he should obey So that he which may iustly commaund may iustly punish and hee that may lawfully punish may certainely commaund Howe say you then may Princes punish for matters of religion Phi. No doubt they may but when and where the Priest must guyde Theo. Who beareth the sworde The Priest or the Prince Phi. The Prince not the Priest Theo. And that sworde which the Prince beareth must doe the deede
the Recordes that lay at Rome in your own keeping and the thing not spied Phi. A name is soone thrust in Theo. But whole sentences and whole leaues can not bee thrust in without stealing away the original laying a counterfeit in place thereof which was easie to be discerned Honorius cause is mentioned discussed in 26 seueral places of the councell two of his epistles repeated at large one of 9. skore 12. lines the other of threeskore and sixteene lynes which argue the whole councel to be forged or these branches concerning Honorius to be as sincere as the rest Phi. One Councell is soone corrupted Theo. But may you reiect your owne Recordes as forged and bring neither reason suspition nor probabilitie when by whom or how this was or could bee done Giue vs leaue to doe the like to the rest of your Romish Records where good cause leadeth vs and see what wil become of your Religion Phi. In deede this one we thinke to be forged Theo. A generall Councell repeating the matter which you sticke at more than twentie times and lying safe in your owne custodie you suspect to bee forged and vpon no ground but onely because it condemneth a Bishoppe of Rome for an heretike and yet you can not denie that but you must denie more Leo the second accursed Honorius his predecessour for the same heresie The seconde Councell of Nice which you greatly reuerence and call the seuenth generall Councell confesseth Honorius was condemned in the sixt generall Councell and themselues reiect him by name for an heretike whereto the Legates of Adrian then Bishoppe of Rome there present consented and subscribed Adrian the seconde in a Councell at Rome confessed that Honorius once Bishoppe of Rome was accused of heresie and condemned after his death by the consent of the Romane See and this his confession was read and allowed in the eight generall Councell of Constantinople If al these be forged that at Rome where your selues were the keepers how good cause haue we to suspect the rest of your euideÌ„ce which tend chiefly to vphold the Popes pride to encrease his gaine agree neither with theÌ„selues nor with the state of those times wherein they should be written nor with the best and approued stories of the Church Phi. Synce three generall Councels recken Honorius as condemned of heresie and specially the Decretall of Leo the second which the Bishoppes of Rome woulde soone haue disclaimed if it had beene suspected I dare not say that all these are forged for feare lest I ouerthrowe the credite of all Romane Recordes and therefore I thinke rather the Councell that first condemned him mistooke his meaning or that the letters which they sawe were written in his name by some euill willers of his both which cases are possible Theo. You mend this gappe and make a bigger You saue the Romane Libraries from corrupt Recordes and vpbrayde a generall councel with rash iudgement and lacke of vnderstanding for if they condemned Honorius not onely their brother but also their better as you take him and the head of the Church for an heretike and that after his death and either conceiued not the sense of his woordes or tooke not heede to the seale and subscription of his letters that those were Authentike they deseruâ—d not to bee counted Christians much lesse to goe for a lawfull and generall Councell And the Bishoppes of Rome that came after and confirmed the same when they might and should haue reprooued the Councell of indiscretion or malice and defended the innocencie of Honorius were not successours to him but conspiratours against him and so none of your shiftes are either sound or likely Howsoeuer you wrangle with the fact yet this is euident and without contradiction that three generall Councels eche after other were of opinion the Pope might liue and die an heritike and Agatho Leo Adrian the first and second all Bishoppes of Rome confessed thus much by their Decretals and yeelded thereto by their subscriptions Which if you graunt condemne or acquite Honorius of heresie at your pleasures Wee haue the full consent of the East and West Churches that the Bishoppe of Rome may erre which you at this present so stifly deny Phi. If one did erre the number is not so great Theo. If one did others may yet I haue named three that were condemned for heresie and Apostasie Marcellinus Liberius Honorius and moe I might that erred in like manner as Vigilius Anastatius Celestinus and others but I see you are determined to beleeue none that make against you in this point and therefore I were as good saue my labour as spend longer time with one that is past all sense Phi. If you prooue they erred I will not defende them Theo. But in reporting their sayings and doings you giue credite to none bee they neuer so indifferent and auncient Phi. Wee credite them if a greater number of writers doe not contradict them Theo. If certaine late fauourers of the Pope without trueth or shame doe gainesay the Stories that went before them thinke you the partiall and corrupt writinges of such men woorthie to bee taken against others that bee both elder and syncerer Phi. I euer goe with antiquitie and vniuersalitie Theo. But when you come to the push you care neither for fathers nor Councels Prouinciall nor generall if they crosse your affections or touch the Popes ambition There ancient writers liuing in the same time with Liberius affirme that he subscribed to the Arrians and Sozomene that wrate within 40. yeres of the deed doing saith no lesse you beleeue neither them nor your owne stories which with one consent followed that report till some in our age to make the Popes Tribunal infallible began not only to doubt but also to deny Liberius fact Two general Councels condemne Honorius for an heretike and the third auouâ—heth him to haue been condemned not without the knowledge of his successours the bishops of Rome that came after him You regard neither Popes nor Synods where they say that Honorius erred in other things where you thinke they make with you they shall be sacred and auncient fathers Councels as though you were not bound to yeeld vnto trueth but that onely were trueth which liked you Phi. Liberius was forced and Honorius deceiued with a likelyhood of trueth this is all you can get of these sacred and ancient fathers and Councels Theo. We need no more No man falleth from the faith but he is either forced or deceiued and yet this wee get besides which we most esteeme that these fathers and Councels were of opinion and saw by experience the Bishop of Rome did and might erre Yeeld to this and wee remit you the rest Phi. Not till I see what else you will bring You talke of Vigilius and Anastasius but I thinke more than you can proue Theo. Of Vigillius
iust one Phi. We haue the iudgement of holy Church for our doinges Theo. Neuer talke of your censures as if they were the iudgementes of holy church so long as they ende in murders they bee the wicked iniurious and mischeeuous attemptes of Antichrist incensing subiectes to rebell against the powers which God hath ordained to their owne damnation and you be the blazers and abettours of that his impietie and for lacke of better proofes you bring the Pagās and Heathens which knew not God to fortifie your doinges Phi. They had meanes to deliuer themselues from tyrantes shal wee haue none They had murdering of tyrants which God hath prohibited to all christiās toward priuate men much more toward Princes Deliueraunce if you woulde haue obtaine it by praier and expect it in peace those be weapons for Christiās Somerfields dagge and Parries dagger be diuelish meanes to dispatch princes vsed by Heathens to reuenge their pursuers but to their sharpe and heauie punishment before God who hath taught his an other way to deliuer thēselues from tyrantes that is to repay no man therefore not Magistrates euill for euill to be pacient in tribulation to reioice in hope not to auenge thē selues but to blesse their persecutors to blesse them I say and not to curse them much lesse to kill them These be the manifest precepts of Christ If you be of God you will heare them If not in truth you bee heathen and then may you well follow your forefathers the heathens in murdering or as you cal it in depriuing and restraining of Princes Phi. The bond and obligation we haue entered into for the seruice of Christ and the Church farre exceedeth all other dutie which wee owe to anie humane creature and therefore where the obedience to the inferiour hindereth the seruice of the other which is superiour wee must by Lawe and order discharge our-selues of the inferiour Theo. You say you haue heapes of learning sure you shew litle There is no doubt but the dutie which we owe to Christ and his church farre exceedeth the seruice that we can owe or must yeelde to any humane creature and also against the superiour wee must yeelde no obedience to the inferiour and thence you may rightly conclude that we must not obey man aboue or against God but when you inferre that if Princes commaund some thinges against Go◠you must therefore obey them in nothing this is wicked and most absurde sophistrie Wee must not obey them in those pointes which they commaund against God in all other thinges we must because God hath so prescribed vs to doe Take an example of the Tyrantes that were in the Apostles time Did they not directly commaunde against God not in one or two but in all matters of religion It is euident they did Did the Apostles thence conclude that the christians should take them for no Princes but by law and order be discharged of all other seruice due vnto them as you doe It is euident they did not Yea rather they earnestly adiured all christians to be subiect to them in all other things and euen in those thinges which were commaunded against God to submitte them-selues with meekenesse and reuerence to indure the Magistrates pleasure though not to obeie his will Why then in matters of so great moment bring you so light and vaine delusions Why repeate you so often the same antecedent and neuer attende the fault of your consequent Phi. The wife if shee cannot liue with her owne husband beeing an Infidel or an heretike without iniurie and dishonour to God shee may depart from him or contrariwise hee from her for the like cause neither oweth the innocent partie nor the other can lawefullie claime any coniugall duetie or debt in this case The very bondslaue which is in an other kinde no lesse bound to his Lorde and master than the subiect to his Soueraigne may also by auncient Imperiall Lawes depart and refuse to obey or serue him if he become an heretike yea ipso facto hee is made free Finally the parents that become heretikes lose the superioritie and dominion they haue by Lawe or nature ouer their owne children Therefore let no man maruel that in case of heresie the Soueraigne loseth his superioritie and right ouer his people and kingdome Theophil If wee shoulde graunt you these three precedentes euen as your selfe set them downe they woulde nothing further your conclusion That hereticall Husbandes Masters and Parentes loose their right and interest which they otherwise haue in their wiues seruantes and children is no position of Gods Lawe but a terrour deuised and established by the Princes power to fraie men from Heresie Nowe Princes appoint punishmentes for their Subiectes not for them-selues therefore no good consequent can bee framed from these paternes to the depriuation of Princes It is ouer much bouldnesse in you Masters without authoritie to require to punishe your Superiours in such sorte as they with authoritie punish their subiectes They bee Princes you bee not they beare the sworde to reuenge wickednesse you doe not they may dispose of their people bee they Masters or Parentes you may not dispose of them being Magistrates Much lesse may you turne the Lawes which they made to punish subiectes against themselues That were to make them not Princes ouer others but Subiectes vnder you which I trust they bee not You see the disparison of your examples and so the disiuncture of your argument and yet your supposementes bee not simplie true Neither infidelitie nor heresie by Gods Lawe doeth dissolue matrimonie The Apostle willeth the beleeuing wife to staie with the vnbeleeuing husbande if hee bee so content and our Sauiour will haue no man putte away his wife for heresie but onelie for incontinencie Where daunger of life is feared or bodily wrong offered the Magistrate may permit the wife to dwell asunder from her husbande till hee bee reclaimed but in no case to bee diuorced The Seruaunt is not so surely bounde to his Master as the Subiect is to the Prince power of life and death the Master hath none the Prince hath refuge against the Master the Seruaunt hath to the common gouernour of them both which is the Magistrate the Subiect hath no refuge against his Soueraigne but onely to God by prayer and patience and therefore the Prince may demise the Seruaunt if the Master bee like to corrupt him but no man can discharge the Subiecte though the Prince goe about to oppresse him and that your owne example will conclude For who set free the Seruaunt from his Maister the Apostles or Princes You knowe the Apostles neither did nor might attempt anie such thing Peter in Gods behalfe requireth all Seruaunts with feare to obey their Masters excepting neither infideles nor heretikes not only if they were good curteous but though they were froward For that is thanksworthie if a man for
Art Phi. You vnderstand vs not When wee giue diuine honour to the image in respect of Christ we giue it to Christ and not to the image Theo. God graunt you vnderstand your selues You first dishonour the Sonne of God by exhibiting the heauenly seruice that is due to him to an Image made with handes and then with a shift of wordes you thinke to delude him in telling that hee may not choose but like of your doinges because you ment it vnto him when you did it to a dumbe creature for his sake But awake out of your frensie God will not thus be mocked by your relations or intentions Hee is zealous of his honour he will not resigne it to any other and namely not to grauen or carued images If against his worde against his will against his truth and glorie you impart it to anie other or take vpon you to conueie it to him by creatures or images as if hee were not present in all places with might and maiesty to receiue the seruice that is done vnto him you not onely make new Gods but you reiect him as no GOD who alone is the true GOD and will be serued without mate or meane of your deuising Phi. Our Lord shewing what account he maketh of such as represent his person sayth In as much as you haue doone it to one of the least of these you haue doone it vnto me Theo. Did Christ speake that of images Phi. Noâ— but thereby you see it passeth â—â—to Christ whatsoeuer is done in his name or for his sake to others Theo. If you meane such charitable reliefe as Christ hath commaunded vs to yeeld to our brethren in respect of his will their neede and our dutie you say well wee haue for that the manifest precept and promise of our Sauiour accepting it as done to himselfe whatsoeuer is done to any of his brethren or seruauntes but if you leape from men to images from humane comfort to diuine honour you leape too farre to haue the sequele good Philand If diuine adoration may not bee giuen to Images yet humane reuerence may with-out anie daunger Theo. Religious honour may not and as for externall and ciuill reuerence whether that may bee giuen to images can bee no doubt of Doctrine nor point of fayth The one is impious to bee defended the other superfluous to bee discussed Philand So you giue them either wee care not Theophil If you flie from adoration to saluation and stande not on pietie but on ciuilitie then is it a question for Philosophers and not for Diuines and to bee decided rather in the Schooles than in the Churche neyther can any manne bee praysed or preiudiced for vsing or omitting that kinde of curtesie which neyther the Gospell nor good manners conuince to bee necessary Philand Shoulde wee not honour Christ and his Sainctes by all the meanes wee can Theophil Christ you must honour with all power and all your strength as being the Sonne of the liuing GOD but you may not fasten his honour to any Image or creature since hee is alwayes present to beholde and willing to receiue as well the religions submission of knees handes and eyes as the inwarde sighes and grones of the heart neither can you bestowe the least of these gestures on an image in your prayers without open and euident wrong to him to whome you shoulde yeeld them Phi. For adoring of images I am not so earnest as for hauing them in the Church that they may put vs in remembraunce of the bitter paines and death which it peased our Lord to suffer for our sakes and that I am sure is catholike though adoration be not Theo. We doe not gainesay the remembring or honouring the death and bloodshedding of our Sauiour hee is not onely dull but wicked that intermitteth either but this is the doubt betwixt vs whether wee shoulde content our selues with such meanes as hee hath deuised for vs and commended vnto vs thereby dayly to renue the memorie of our redemption or else inuent others of our owne heades fitte perhappes to prouoke vs to a naturall and humane affection but not fitte to instruct our fayth The hearing of his worde and partaking of his mysteries were appointed by him to leade vs and vse vs to the continuall meditation of his death and passion a crucifixe was not hee knowing that images though they did intertaine the eies with some delight yet might they snare the soules of many simple and sillie persons and preferring the least seede of sounde faith beholding and adoring him in spirit and truth before all the dumbe shewes and imagery that mans wit could furnish to winne the eye and moue the heart with a carrâ—all kind of commiseration and pitie such as wee finde in our selues when wee beholde the tormentes and pangues of any miscreant or malefactour punished amongest vs. Phi. All meanes are good that bring vs in minde of his death Theo. By sight you may learn the maner of his death but neither the cause nor the fruits which are the chiefest thinges that the sonne of god would haue vs remember in his death and you very peruersely and wickedly keeping the people from those meanes which Christ ordained as the hearing of the word and right vse of the sacraments which you drowned in a strange tongue that the people vnderstood not set them to gaze on a Roode taught them to giue all possible honour both bodily and ghostly to that which they sawe with their eyes bearing them in hand it passed from the image to the originall that is from a dead and senselesse stocke to the glorious and euerlyuing Sonne of God which in effect was nothing else but to worship and serue the creature before the Creator which is blessed for euer Phi. You are now besides the matter We speake of hauing images for remeÌ„braunce not of adoring them for religion and that is catholike if this be not Theo. Since the hauing of images being neither deliuered nor allowed by Christ nor his Apostles is superfluous and the abusing of them is so daungerous and yet so frequent and often that in all ages and places it hath intrapped many Gentiles Iewes and Christians I see no reason why for a curious delight of the eyes which the Apostles neglected and the primatiue Church of Christ wanted we shoulde scandalize the ignorant and exercise the learned as for a necessarie point of catholike doctrine Phi. Had the Apostles and their scholers no images Theo. Had they thinke you Phi. Remember you not the image which Nicodemus that came to Christ by night made with his owne handes and left to Gamaliel S. Pauls master he to Iames and Iames to Simeon and Zacheus This report you shall finde written by Athanasius 1300. yeares since and besides that it is amongest his workes at this day it was repeated 800. yeares agoe in the second Nicene councell as
Your later allegation is grouÌ„ded on the former conuinceth your author to be but a yong father in respect of S. Basil. For where S. Basil died before Meletius your bastard Basil rehearseth Meletius as a Bishop of ancient memorie dead long before his time In super MeletiuÌ„ illuÌ„ admiranduÌ„ in eadeÌ„ fuisse sententia narrant qui cuÌ„ illo vixerunt Sed quid opus est vetera coÌ„memorare Immo nuÌ„c qui sunt Orientales Moreouer Meletius that admirable Bishop was of the same opinion as they that liued with him report But what neede I repeate auncient times The East Bishops which are at this day c. Now the true S. Basill not onely liued at the same time with Meletius but was made Deacon by him and wrate many letters to him and departed this life before him as the church storie witnesseth affirming that Helladius S. Basils successour and Meletius were both present at the second general councell at Constantinople vnder Theodosius and that must needes be when S. Basill was dead Phi. You did wel to discredit the place it were otherwise able to ouerthrowe all your new doctrine Theo. Then you do not well to build the antiquitie of your religion on this and such other apparent forgeries but were the places not forged they could do you no such seruice as you spake of in the question which we now handle yea rather they confirme that which we affirme that Things necessary to saluation are comprised in the Gospell Phi. Many traditions were receiued from the Apostles without writing which are not in the Gospel Theo. You must also proue those traditions to be necessary to saluation before you can conclude out of this place any thing against our assertioÌ„ Phi. As though the Apostles deliuered thinges which were not necessary to saluation Theo. The christian faith they deliuered in writing the rest they left vnwritten because those things which were no parts of faith were deliuered to the church of Christ for decency not for necessity Phi. For decency what a cauill that is Theo. The Traditions which your counterfet Basill here rehearseth as descending from the Apostles are no such deepe mysteries of religion as he pretendeth That the people should euery sunday and likewise betweene Easter and Whitsuntide pray standing is that any point of faith or help to saue their soules The words of inuocatioÌ„ at the Lords supper the praiers before after which the Greeke church vsed haue you not long since left them or to say the trueth did you euer accept them for catholike Singing with the crosse turning to the East thrise dipping him that is baptized and annointing him after with oyle bee these essentiall parts of Baptisme or rather externall Rites declaring the power and vertue of that Sacrament Your author himselfe will tell you they be not within the compasse of that faith which is common to all ChristiaÌ„s and must be rightly beleeued of all that will be saued For shewing the cause why they might not be written What things saith he such as were not baptized might not behold how could it be fit they should be publikely caried about in writing And againe The Apostles and fathers which prescribed certaine rites in the first beginning of the church reserued to these mysteries their dignitie by silence and secrecie For it is no mysterie which is open to the eares of the people and vulgar sort Now things necessary to saluatioÌ„ must openly be preached to the people and be fully conceiued of them and stedfastly proâ—essed by theÌ„ before they can be saued These things therefore be not of that sort but are rather excluded from necessitie because they were deliuered vnder secrecie Phi. But S. Basil or whosoeuer he be that wrote that booke saith vtraque parem vim habent ad pietatem Things vnwritten haue equal force to godlines with things written Theo. He saith not that all things vnwritten but vtraque both sortes haue like force to godlines not that dumbe ceremonies or outward gestures haue equall force with the word of God to lighten the minde conuert the soule and clense the heart it were arrogant blasphemie so to say but amongst things vnwritten he numbreth the praiers of the church proportioned by the word and hauing in them the very contents of the worde and also the Creede and profession of the faith it selfe whereby wee beleeue in the Father the Sonne and the holy ghost in truth godlinesse equiualent with the scriptures and in substaunce the very same that is witnessed by the scriptures Both these your Author in that place counteth for things vnwritten and these wee graunt haue equall force to godlinesse with those things that are written Phi. In effect they be all one with those things that are writteâ— Theo. That maketh his speâ—ch the truer which otherwise were absurd and vngodly Phi. Is it not a wâ—lie shift that sometimes you will admit no traditions and at other times when you bee hardly pressed fayth scriptures and all shall bee traditions with you Theo. Is it not a wilier that hauing framed to your selues a religion without the scriptures you woulde nowe fortifie the same by tradition against the scriptures But you may not so preuaile Wee haue the warrant of Saint Paul and the catholike consent of Christes Church that our faith shoulde depende on the word of God and since God speaketh not now but in his scriptures it is euident that our fayth in all pointes must bee directed and ruled by the scriptures Stand not brabling with vs about the worde Tradition which is very doubtfull and diuersely taken amongest the fathers Bring some faire and true demonstration for that which you holde as reason is you should to counterpâ—iâ—e so many proofes in a matter of such importance or else admit our assertion to be true Philand That wee can doe and yet not hurte our cause Theophil Wee knowe you can doe much You can bouldly call your selues catholikes though you bee vnshamefast heretikes and tell the people you teach nothing but antiquitie when the chiefest pointes of your religion bee meere nouelties and barbarous absurdityes Philand You can exemplifie a lye the best that euer I hearde Theophil Keepe that praise as proper to your selfe I will not disturbe your profession Touching the matter in question whether I speake ought that is vntrue let the reader iudge You will haue your religion and doctrine to bee Catholike that is confirmed by the Scriptures and professed in all places of all persons at all tymes euen from the first beginning wheresoeuer the Church of Christ hath beene receiued And when wee come to see the specialities wee finde you to swarue not onely from the sacred Scriptures and auncient Fathers but euen from those later ages and Churches which you woulde seeme to followe and to haue gotten you a religion of your owne without Councell Canon antiquitie or
6. cap. 15. Three Lodouikes not one of them deposed by the Pope Henry the fourth was the first that euer was offered dopositioÌ„ by any Pope The defence cap. 5. The defence cap. 5. It is no sinne nor wrong to call Gregorie the seuenth Hildebrand The Iesuites mannerly speeches of the Emperor Acts. 12. vers 22. The defence cap. 5. The conteÌ„tioÌ„ between Pope Gregorie the seuenth and Henry the third Emperour Proue the Popes right to depose Princes we remit the successe That right is yet vnproued The praise of the person is nothing to the right of the cause The defence Cap. 5. Pope Hildebrand a good man Hildebrand might well be a dealer in Berengarius recantation for the goodnes of it The Iesuits should condemne them selues if they should not coÌ„mend Hildebrand Which like they better Peter enduring or Hildebrand displacing Princes Lambert Schaf Abbas Vrsperg The mildnes of Pope Hildebrand What iustice call you that which the Church of Christ for 1000. yeres counted wickednes * Iude epist. * Rom. 23. The defence cap. 5. Lib. 3. cap. vlt. factorum memorabilium The testimonie of the Duke of Genuâ— for Pope Hildebrand See Vrsperpen lib. 5. annalium How knew Baptista Fulgosius the goodnes of Hildebrand that liued 400 yeres before him Lib. 3. cap. 8. de Constant. A noble mans fansie is no fit balance for this cause No reason that Princes rightes should be tried by Italian Dukes The defence cap. 5. Trithem in Chron. If Baptista knew little of Hildebrand Trithemius knew lesse of Henry the fourth Trithemius a man of their side our age is no good witnes in this case Dodechinus in anno 1090. This pestileÌ„t slaunder of Henry the 4. came first froÌ„ the mouth of a rebell that sought to supplant him Three bishoprickes for one sword is no such hainous Symony The Iesuits are content to make their abbasses whoores and their Bishops Sodomites to deface this Emperour The greatest fautors of Hildebrand aliue at the same time with him neuer charged him with these vnclean surmises Dodechinus in anno 1106. Marianus in anno 1075. He that will rebell against his Prince must be a slanderer of his Prince or els he shal seeme to rebell without cause Vita Henrici 4. habetur in fasciculo rerum sciendarum Colonie impresso He toucheth the very crimes that the Iesuites obiect Vrspergeâ—s in anno 1071. It were easie to paint out Hildebrand in his coulors if that were to this purpose Vrspergens in anno 1076. Vrsperg in anno 1080. Vrsperg IbideÌ„ The Iesuites beleeue one rebel against his Prince without prâ—sâ— but they will not beleeue the Bishops Nobles of Italie Germany iudicially pronouncing against the Pope Italy displeased with Henry for submitting himself to Hildebrand Lambert Scafnaburgens in anno 1077. Al the bishops of Italie had condemned Hildebrand for capitall crimes Hildebrand infamous for all vices Hildebrand an Apostaticall Pope He that will see the rest of HildebraÌ„ds vertues let him read Beno the Cardinall of his life and acts The fact and not the life of Hildebrand is the thing which we striue for The pope had his flatterers as well as the Prince Mariage in Priests and obedience to Princes impugned by the names of fornication Symonie Hildebrandes griefe against the Emperor Hildebrandes policie to quell the Empeâ—oâ— These aduantages the Pope had against the Prince Lambert scafnaburg in anno 1077. Hildebrands first attempt was to pull the Clergie from the king The next was to make him self the corrector master of Princes The mysterie of iniquitie sheweth it selfe Men of their own religion haue obserued in HildebraÌ„d as much as I report Auent annal lib. 5. fol. 562.569 sequeÌ„t The Iesuites trust none but Italians such as flatter the Pope as fast as themselues Vrspergens in anno 1076. Hildebrands owne confession for what causes he did excommunicate the Emperor Henry the 4. free from Symony by the report of his verie enemies Lambert Scafn in anno 1075. Did not this prince vehemently detest Symonists Lambert Scafn Ibidem No prince freer in his elections thaÌ„ Henry the 4. If the Pope had coÌ„mitted no worse Symony than heÌ„ry the 4. did the Church had beene in better case than it is The Monkes of purpose diffame the prince to flatter the Pope Vita Henrici 4. in fasciculo reruÌ„sciendarum Henry the 4. abused by his tutors in his minoritie This fault of other men is imputed to the Prince by the Moncks The tru cause why Hildebrand was offended that the Prince should giue spirituall liuings This was the way to pull first the clergie after the people from the Prince Princes were neuer weakened till their clergie tooke part with the Pope against them Hildebrand made it Symonie for a lay man to present to a spiritual liuing Platina in Gregor 7. Vide caus 16. quaesi 7. ¶ Si quis deincept Lustily saide and like a Pope Ibidem This was neuer counted Symony before Hildebrands time Platina in Benedict 2. The Bishop of Rome could not be chosen without the Princes consent Lambert Schaf in anno 1073. Hildebrand wheÌ„ he came to be Pope durst not be ordered without the Princes pleasure That which Hildebrand condemned was long before coÌ„firmed to the Prince by the former Bishops of Rome Distinct. 63. ¶ Adrianus Hildebrand accursed by his predecessours Distinct. 63. ¶ In Synod This was the yoke which Hildebrand could not indure Martin Polon in Adriano Leone 9. Plat. in Pasc. 1. Leon. 8. Sigebert in anno 1111. This was the chiefe quarel between Hildebrand and Henry the 4. Was not this a wise cause to depriue a Prince of his Crowne The Prince was not bouÌ„d to appeare in the popes consistorie Refusing the Popes penaltie is no depriuation in a Prince Any Pastor may remit the Princes sinnes as wel as the Pope Marke the stately proceedings of Hildebrand against the Emperour The diuell himselfe may minister as good Iustice as HildebraÌ„d did The popes arbitrarie penances are no parts of our conuersion vnto God The Pope abuseth the keies to increase his gaine and power How Hildebrand sped with his enterprise The iust reward of a rebel shewed in Rodolph Vrspergens in anno 1080. Sigebets in anno 1080. Hildebrand Prophesieth against himselfe Hildebrand himselfe turned out of his Popedome Sigeber in anno 1084. Vrspergen in anno 1083. Siger in anno 1085. In vita gestis Hildebrand Otho Prisingens li. 6. cap. 35. Depriuation of Princes neuer offered by any before Hildebrande Sigeb in anno 1088. This is right the Iesuites cause Apud Auent lib. 5. fol. 563. Vrspergen in anno 1085. The later writers of the Romish faction to please the Pope coÌ„mend Hildebrand to the heauens Vita Henrici 4. in Fasciculo rerion sciendaruÌ„ That part punished which offended What Hildebrand began the pope that came after would neuer leaue off Three erectâ—â— against Henry the 4. and all slaine The two sons of Hen. the 4.
attemptes against God and the Magistrate But as it seemed they trusted rather to their practises which haue beene of late verie rife with the Church of Rome than to their proofes of which theie bee vtterlie destitute and therefore they dispatched into your Highnesse Realme vnder the conduction of one more presumptuous than learned as his writing and disputing whiles hee liued declared a whole swarme of Boie-priestes disguised and prouided at all assaies with secrete instructions how to deale with all sortes of men and matters and with commission from Rome to confesse and absolue such as they should winne with anie pretence or policie to mislike the state and affect noueltie and to take assuraunce of them by vowe othe or other meanes that they shoulde bee euer after adherent and obedient to the Church of Rome and to the faith thereof which there made the ruder and vnwiser sort beleeue was christian and Catholike Religion onelie founded in their mouthes and the faith of their Fathers and yet that poison they caried couertlie in their hearts and cunninglie in their bookes that your Maiesties deceiued and beguiled Subiectes by the verie sequence of their Romish faith and absolution were tied to obeie the Pope depriuing your highnesse of the sword and scepter bound to assist him or whom he should send to take the same by force of armes out of your Highnesse handes I knowe most noble Soueraigne they stoutly denied this and earnestly protested in open audience that they had no such meaning but for their partes did account your Maiestie their lawfull and true Princesse and taught all others so to doe hauing first obtained like wilie Friers a dispensation at Rome that to auoide the present daunger they and all other their obsequents might serue and honour your Highnesse for a time vntill the bull of Pius the fifth might safely bee executed and it may bee the common sort of such as they peruerted were not acquainted with these hainous mysteries but yet this was the full resolution of them all which I last reported as well appeared by their examinations and this verie conclusion stood in their written bookes as a ruled case that they must rather loose their liues than shrinke from this ground-woorke that the Pope maie depriue your Highnesse of your Scepter and Throne and the reason is added because saie they it is a pointe of fayeth and requireth confession of the mouth though death insue This daungerous if not diuelish Doctrine was not printed nor publyshed to the sight of all your Subiectes vntill the time that some of the chiefe procurers and kindlers of this flame for these and other interprises of lyke condition and qualitie were by the iust course of your Highnesse Lawes adiudged to death After whose execution the almes-men of Antichrist sawe no remedie but they must either leaue their brethren as rightlie condemned for hatching rebellion vnder a shewe of Religion and bee in daunger to dissolue the plotte which they had laide to bring this Lande to the Popes subiection the true ende and intent of their Seminaries and full repaiment of all his charges or else with all their cunning vndertake the quarrell of their vn-holie father and pleade the cause of their vnluckie brethren Hauing no better choice they resolued as venturers must that haue a desperate case in hand to trie what successe they might gette by facing and shifting in such sort as the simple shoulde hardlie discerne them To that end haue they put foorth A Defence of English Catholikes Wherein according to their wonted vaine manie thinges are statelie and stoutelie auouched but nothing attempted or intended to bee prooued saue onelie the Popes power to depriue Princes which with all furniture of witte and woordes they labour to inferre not shaming to saie that Subiectes bearing armes against their naturall Princes vpon the Popes warraunt do an holy iust and honorable seruice and that this hath beene the faith of this Land euer since it was conuerted vnto Christ. Against this canker consuming the verie soule and conscience where it taketh holde I thought it not amisse to oppose the Soueraigne salue of Gods eternall will and commaundement and to let it appeare to your Graces people that Princes are placed by God and so not to bee displaced by men and subiectes threatned damnation by Gods own mouth if they resist from which no Popes dispensation shall saue them and therefore the Iesuits Doctrine in that point to be as wicked as their proofes bee weake hauing neither Scripture Councell nor Father for a thousande yeares that euer allowed mentioned or imagined anie power in Popes to depose Princes I haue thereto added a confirmation of the right which the Lawes of this Lande do attribute vnto your Highnesse and an explication of that othe which the Iesuits so much stumble at laieng my foundation in the sacred testimonies of the holie Ghost and persuing the same in the continual practise of Christs church for eight hundreth yeares vpward so long as there was either godlines in Bishops to regard their duties or corage in Princes to call for their owne and iustifieng euerie part thereof seuerallie and sufficientlie by diuine and humane both authorities and examples The Iesuites absurdities and allegations pretended against your Maiesties interest to beare the sword ouer all persons and in all causes without dependence or reference to anie earthlie tribunal or superior I haue likewise particularlie refelled and proued them both impertinent to their purpose and nothing obstant to that Supreme power of the sword which is claimed and vsed by your Maiestie but their obiections to be meere cauils mistakings of a matter which they do not or will not vnderstand as also their flieng this Realme and running to Rome I haue examined and not onelie found them repugnant to the ancient lawes of the Conqueror other your noble progenitors but also shewed great difference betweene the Catholike Fathers writing and sometimes going to the Bishop of Rome as to their fellow seruaunt and a dutifull subiect to the same state that they were our English Italians giuing him an Antichristian power to turne wind the whole church at his will and dispose kingdomes and displace Princes if they be not obedient and suppliant to his Censures Lastlie because the temper and colour of all their wicked sayings doings is the catholik faith the catholik seruice I haue entered a speciall discourse that the reformation of the church in this Realme made by your Maiesties power lawes is wholie truelie catholike such as the Scriptures do preciselie command the ancient fathers expresly witnes was the faith and vse of Christes church for manie hundrethes These things most religious worthie Princesse I haue done sincerely that the doctrine precepts of our Sauior might take place before the deuises pleasures of mē familiarly that the meaner sort of your subiects which are most obnoxious
and eloquence hee seeketh to proue and perswade to the people of this Realme as the chiefest Bulwark of their Defence that were condemned he saith for religion we say for treason and in deed the very ground of all their actions I thought needefull to examine and to let the simple see on what a sandy slime they haue built as well their consciences as their Colleges and in how wretched and vnrighteous a quarell they haue hazarded their liues in this world and their soules in the next to inlarge the power and make vp the purse of their Rhemish founder Taking that therefore in hande I haue worde by worde refelled the fifth chapter of their Defence which purposely treateth of this matter and inserted so much of the fourth as tended to this ende the rest being a voluntarie pang of their vnbridled eloquencc as also I haue ripped vp the shamefull attemptes and tumults of Popes these last fiue hundred yeares for before that time Antichrist neither was nor durst be so bold presuming to displace depose their Lord Maister the Romane Emperor incountering him other Princes with treasons poysons battayles bloodsheds periuries treacheries such as Christendom neuer before tasted of euer since rued Where I haue not only opened the facts noted the meeknes of their martial spirits but haue vnfoulded the causes quarels for which those Princes were thus pursued with such excommunications and depriuations from Rome shewing as I go the Italian stories in fauour of their countrieman and foreman the Pope to bee exceeding partiall The like order I would haue followed in their Apologie but that as I first protested I found nothing in it worthy to bee refuted vnlesse I should haue banded their idle and emptie termes backe againe to them with others of the same making and so brought the cause of Christ and trueth of Religion to a warfare of woordes which I neither ought nor would If any man thinke me no indifferent iudge of their paines it may please him to cast his eye on the second sheete and hee shall find all the proofes and places of their Apologie aunswered in three leanes and of those fewe and weake quotations to haue made a conquest in open writing had beene incke and paper ill imployed I would therefore not take that course which seemed to me neither needeful nor profitable but to benefite the poore deceiued subiectes of this Realme and bring the Iesuites cause to the touch-stone in deede I haue chosen the principall intentes of their Apologie on which their whole foundation standeth and after mine owne course debated them more exactly and largely than the confutation of their Apology would haue suffered me For where they pretend they departed for lacke of the Catholike Sacrifice Sacramentes and Seruice which want in this Realme and because they were forced by oth to confesse an vnnaturall and impossible power in the Prince to be supreme Gouernour of all persons and causes as well ecclesiasticall as temporall and in their absence they resort for reliefe to none but to him that is the head of their catholike communion the chiefe Pastour and Bishoppe of their soules in earth and the vicar generall of Christ to whose predecessors all the famous Fathers called for aide comfort and counsell in their like distresses and traine vppe such as come vnto them in obedience to the churches Lawes Apostolike Traditions both written and vnwritten and to the precepts of Ancients Superiours who haue the promised spirit of trueth and are sent backe againe into this Land to execute spirituall offices and to absolue in foro conscientiae the penitent people from their sinnes of what sort soeuer schisme and heresie not excepted who seeth not that these assertions being the seueral braÌ„ches of their Apologie depend either on religion that is in strife betwixt vs or on the Princes power which they impugne or on the Popes claime to bee head of the church which we deny And therefore the proofe or disproofe of their particular actions must be fet and deriued from those chiefe and capitall springs The consideration whereof first induced mee to neglect the rouing discourses and vaunting florishes of their Apologie no lesse voide of trueth than of proofe and to betake my selfe to a stricter and directer kinde of examining the most materiall pointes on which the rest did hang as first their running to Rome siding themselues with the Pope as Christs Vicar generall against their Prince for which they haue no president in the primatiue Church The next is the princes power to commaund for trueth and right to beare the sword within her owne Realme ouer all persons for thinges and causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall without any subiection or relation to the Popes tribunall which I prooue is agreeable to the Lawes of God and practise of Christes church and therefore the oth importing the same to be good and godlie Thirdly the Popes censuring and depriuing princes of their crownes I shew to be nothing else but a wicked vnchristian pride contumelie not long since deuised by Antichrist to frustrate the word and ordinance of almighty God and to make himselfe great and so of force the subiects which be partakers with him in that hainous conspiracie by perswading assisting executing or defending the same in worde or deede against their princes to bee traytours and not martyrs if they die for that quarell Lastly the publique reformation of diuine Sacramentes and Seruice made by her Maiestie I declare to be Christian and Catholike and the partes of poperie repealed and abolished by the lawes of this Realme to be repugnant I speak for the substance of theÌ„ and not for certain indifferent ceremonies in them to the sacred scriptures and ancient fathers Other incident and adiacent matters I haue handled and those not a fewe as the generall and speciall contentes before and after will better insinuate but these foure bee the pointes that beare the burden both of their first Apologie for their Seminaries and last Defence of English Catholikes By these shal we soone discerne the truth or falshood of their pretences clamors against the Princes Lawes and such as are authorized by her highnesse therefore from the sober sad discussing hereof if they get them as they haue done to outragious and tragicall exclamations we must leaue them as men wilfully diuerting from the right way crying as loude as they can for life to drowne the voices of such as woulde recall them If they looke that all the parts of their Defence should haue bin answered in like sort as the fifth chapter is that labour I say for a man of my calling wold haue bin as fruitles as it is needles the proofs that are not here discussed may â—afely be despised the rest of their rolling rhetorik a diuine neither need regard nor should repeate As much as is inforcing to their purpose is here
coÌ„prised their politik obseruations as they be for the most part fals passing slaÌ„derous so to their defeÌ„ce are they idle altogether superfluous and argue rather mindes loaden with malice and tongues fraighted with poyson against the present state euen for very temporall and ciuill affaires than anie religious or dutifull respect of authoritie and submission to the Magistrate But such is the doctrine and education of their Romish seminaries they fell first to flattering and because that tooke no place in a rage they be now run to leude and open slaundering An example whereof to him that hath the booke and may read it appeareth as through the the whole so in fewe lines pag. 177. more spitefull wordes than which the rankest caterpiller in Rome could not haue vttered against the state and kingdom where wee liue not touching the persecution which they suffer but obiecting in plaine wordes to the whole body of her Maiesties most honorable most christian Counsel ignominious practises plaguie iniustice yea euen piracies proditions spiâ—ries soule artes to afflict and coosen the world round about vs with many such disloyall vnnaturall vntrue and vnhonest both surmises and reproches whereof that fardle is full This is one of the reasons why I neither might nor would at large refell their Iesuiticall Defence of English Catholikes as they terme it in deede an artificiall inuectiue defacing and slaundering the publike Gouernment of this realme to the vttermost of their powers The other is for that the summe and effect of those chapters which I haue omitted and might not without offence to the state be published are wholy reduced to those principal questions which I haue handled In their first second and fourth chapters their chiefe scopes are these that Manie Priests catholike in England haue bin condemned executed for meere matter of religion that Campian the rest of the Priests condemned executed vpon pretence of treason were neuer yet guiltie of any such crimes but behaued themselues verie discreetly and nothing seditiously in their answeres to the questions of the Bull of Pius Quintus In these the wise Reader soone perceiueth the whole contention toucheth the Popes iurisdiction and claime denied him by the Lawes of this Realme and his power to depriue the Prince of her crowne and scepter which was the sole respect the Bull of Pius Quintus had The iustifying then of these two foundations with cleare and pregnant proofes had beene requisite for the Iesuites if they had purposed to manifest the innocencie of their brethren where nowe by their rhetoricall vagaries inucighing at the partes and circumstances of their inditementes conuictions and executions they storme at the course which the Iudges obserued but saie nothing to the crime wherewith the guiltie were burdened The Popes power to depriue Princes they will say they haue fully proued and so their brethren in trueth and equitie to be cleared If that were so they sayde somewhat but as I haue shewed they profferre it often they neuer proue it And therefore on the contrarie part as I neede not strengthen the publike iudgements of this Realme with the particular reportes behauiors hopes and enterprises of the Iesuites hauing their triall in Courtes of Recorde and places of vsuall and open iustice neither is that incident to my calling or requisite in these cases so for the maine and generall ground of the crime there fastned on them and after punished in theÌ„ which was that to aide assist persuade or defend the Popes Bull depriuing the Prince of her crowne and throne to incourage her Subiectes or enimies on that pretence to rebellion or inuasion was high and hainous treason the trueth I say of this illation is euident by the third part of this my booke where that point of their Defence is refuted So for the rest which would needes venter their liues in the like quarell I meane for inuesting the Pope with the princes sworde the Iesuites should haue brought sound and sufficient proofe that the Pope by Gods lawe hath a Soueraigne and supreme power ouer this Realme to make Lawes to appoint penalties to dispose the goods landes and bodies of Clerkes and others for such causes and crimes as they count spirituall For this is the power which the Pope lately vsurped in this Realme and from which hee is now rightly and orderly repelled by the Lawes of the same It is no treason with vs to make him chiefe Pastour of your soules nor to giue him an Episcopall or Apostolicall authoritie ouer the whole Church though that also bee a wicked and frantike Heresie but to giue him an externall dominion and coerciue iurisdiction ouer this Realme aboue and against the Prince which the Apostles of Christ neither had nor could haue without apparent iniurie to the Magistrate this is it the Execution of iustice doeth duelie respect and this is farre from any matter of faith or religion Right to commaunde and power to compell belong properly to the sworde by the Lawe of God which they can not attribute to the Pope but they must make him a Superiour Magistrate to the prince in guiding and prescribing the vse of the sworde and consequently the prince to holde her sword and scepter at his pleasure and if she refuse to be streightway displaced This wilie conueiaunce to tie Princes swordes fast to the Popes side and to spoyle them of their Crownes if they doe not execute his rage is the chiefest plotte that Iesuites haue at this instant to resettle the kingdome of Antichrist for which they haue not so much as the paring of anie Scripture or Councell or Father in the Church of Christ for a thowsande yeares and yet in our dayes it must bee a meere matter of Religion and the forefront of their brethrens defence But no maruell if they which make open rebellion a point of their faith so soone consent to haue the Popes presumption holden as the surest key of their Religion To their thirde chapter that they haue great cause to complaine of iniust persecution intollerable seueritie and crueltie towardes Catholikes in Englande and wee no reason to doe the like for the iustice as thy call it doone on vs in Queene Maries and other Princes dayes I neede not replie To this conceite of the Iesuites that they may consume whome they will with fire and faggotte and no man must stoppe them of their passage or hinder their pastimes without iniustice and crueltie what shoulde I saie but that I thinâ—e the Scribe was skant waking whiles hee was penning this drowsie Diuinitie What learning I will not aske what witte was in this to make such definitiue resolutions that no Prince may amerce or imprison their adherentes without intollerable seueritie and crueltie forsooth they might hang and burne olde and young men and women for doubting of their Decretalles and all this with prayse though it neuer pleased anie good man in the Catholike Church
It is so long since I saw you Philander that I had almost forgotten you I thought I should remember your face but this apparell made me doubt of you Philand Euen he Theophilus and though you haue descried me where I would not be knowen yet I trust for olde acquaintance you meane me no harme Theo. If you be as far from doing euill as I am from wishing you euill I dare warrant you for any hurt you shall haue but what meaneth this strange attire are you wearie of a studients life that you fall to ruffling in your latter daies Phil. Not choice Theophilus but feare driueth me to this I take small pride in going thus disguised Theo. What neede you feare if you be faultlesse true men hide not their heades Phi. Not where truth may take place but where falshood ouer beareth all it is time for true men to hide their heads except they wil loose them Theo. Is your case so desperate that you stand in danger of loosing your head Phil. Not my deserts but the rigour of your lawes giue me iust cause to feare that which so many of our side haue felt Theo. Your frindes neuer felt the least part of that they did to others neither haue they cause to complaine but of too much ease Phil. You haue spoyled them of their goods cast them in prisons among theeues hanged them as traitours call you this ease what could they feele worse what could you do more Theo. Whom meane you the Northren rebels or Irish conspiratours that were thus hardly dealt with Phi. As though you knew not whom I meant Their heads and quarters pitched in rowes on your gates and bridges are to this day witnesses of their constancie and momiments of your cruelty Theo. Though I can gesse you only ean tell whom you meane Belike the Iesuits that lately suffered for Treason Phi. Treason was obiected to them for a colour to make them odious to the people but in deede religion was the very cause why they were condemned for would they haue recanted their faith they should neuer haue bene brought to the barre Theo. It may be Pardon was offered them so they would recant their Trayterous assertion that Popes at their pleasures may depose Princes and discharge their subiects from all obedience which Christian mildnes in seeking their amendment and shewing them so much fauour doth not quite them from the lewdnes of their enterprise The Princes mercy is no proofe of their innocencie But in sadnes Philander are you since your departure become a Iesuite that you take their part so freshly Phi. The question you aske mee is very dangerous considering the straitnes of your lawes Yet promise me that you will not bewray me and I wil be plaine with you what I am I loue not to dissemble much lesse to deny my vocation Theo. Promise me likewise that you wil attempt nothing against your duetie to God and your Soueraigne and I wil do the best I can for your safety Without this condition I may not yeeld to your petition Phi. I require no more but will you performe that Theo. None so deceitfull as those that be most mistrustfull Hauing our former acquaintance for a warrant and my promise now made you for your better securitie why feare you Phi. Blame mee not if I bee somewhat curious in disclosing my selfe life is sweete and that nowe must I put wholly into your hands which is no smale aduenture Theo. Were your life in my hands as it is not you should well perceiue wee delight not in blood Howbeit you cast greater perill than you neede The lawes of this lande doe not touch you so neere for entering the new found order of Iesuits neither for infecting the simple with the leauen of your doctrine but onely for making deuotion a cloke for sedition Leaue your vndermyning the Princes right state by these secrete and suttle meanes I see no daunger of death that is toward you Phi. If I be taken with any practise against the Prince I refuse no kind of torment onely from preaching publishing the Catholique faith I neither can nor wil be drawen Theo. Wel profered if it be wel performed In deed true Christians euer endured neuer displaced Princes no not when they were tyrants heretiques for God is not serued with resisting the sword which himselfe hath ordeyned to cherish the good chasten the bad but with duetiful obedience to Magistrates when their lawes agree with his in case their willes be dissonant from his thē is he serued with meekenes readines to beare and abyde that which earthly powers shall inflict And this was the cause why the Church of Christ alwayes reioyced in the blood of her Martyrs patiently suffering the cruell rage both of Pagans and Arrians and neuer fauoured any tumult of rebelles assembling themselues to withstande authoritie Phi. Tell vs that we knowe not this we neuer doubted of Theo. Then if your late Iesuites were sent hither as Pioners to make ready the way for the Popes bull that should disherite the Prince and giue her crowne to an other what say you were they iustly condemned for Treason or no Phi. You shall neuer be able to proue them sent to that end Theo. I doe not as yet say they were but what if they were doe you thinke them Martyrs or Traytours Phi. I am sure they were not For I my selfe came in the same message with them and knowe what charge was giuen both to them and to me that in no wise we should meddle with matters of state Theo. I thought all this while by the counterfaiting of your apparell and earnest defending of Iesuites that you were of that crewe Phi. You vrge mee so farre that I can not conceale it The truth is I am of their societie and haue so been euer since my last going beyond the Seas and am now sent backe with others to labour the conuersion of this Realme and to reconcile men to the Catholique fayth and Apostolique Sea for the sauing of their soules Theo. I am the more sory for it if sorow would helpe your lighting on them was vnhappy your ioyning with them is vngodly Phi. You do the men great wrong to carie that hard opinion of them without cause for my part I protest I neuer mette with a more religious vertuous and learned company than the Iesuites are Theo. You take light occasions to set forth your owne prayses as if it were a poynt of perfection to commend your selues Phi. Though we striue to excell others in learning and vertue which we lawfully may yet bragge we not of it Theo. You need not The maker of your Apologie doth it for you whose fingers ytched till he came to the comparing and aduancing of himselfe and his fellowes in this insolent manner Our wittes sayth he be of God in as plentifull measure as theirs our foundation in all kinde of faculties requisite
The Scriptures commend Iosiah for compelling the people to serue God the seruant is charged to compell the guestes that were loth to come God hath ordained the sword which neuer entreateth or perswadeth but onlie commaundeth and compelleth to punish falshood and assist truth Now men that bee willing neede no forcing ergo Princes may compell their subiectes that is constraine them against their wils to keepe the faith and communion of Christs Church notwithstanding they pretend or in deede haue neuer so resolute and strong an opinion to the contrarie The Donatistes rather than they would bee forced from their fansies slew themselues yet this did nothing fraie the Church of God froÌ„ compelling them by the rigour of Princes lawes without any respect to their wilful desperation We graunt he that woundeth a weake conscience sinneth against Christ mary to be grieued with that which is good is no weakenesse but wickednesse and he that tendereth or regardeth a wicked conscience by your leaue is a fauorer and confirmer of his euill works To such saith Paul I gaue no place no not an hour for if I should so please meÌ„ I were not the seruant of Christ. We may not for thinges indifferent trouble the weake mindes of our brethren yet this rule bindeth no Magistrate to remit the punishment of error and infidelitie because God hath charged them to suffer no kinde of euill vnreuenged and this is the greatest whose voice they must heare whose will they must obeie though they were sure thereby to scandalize neuer so many both aliens subiectes Phi. Wo to that man by whom offences come Theo. True Sir but an offence fondly taken not iustly giuen entangleth no man besides the taker Blessed is he saith Christ that is not offended at me Where cursed is he that taketh an offence the giuer is blessed for euer We preach Christ crucified a stumbling blocke to the Iewes and wo to me saith Paul if I preach not the Gospell yet doth it bring the wicked to their destruction and is the sauour of death vnto death in them that perish Then as the minister must dispense the worde of truth be therewith offended and greiued who list so the Magistrate may drawe the sworde of iustice to compell and punish such as bee blindly led or maliciouslie bent to resist sound doctrine without any respect what afterward befalleth such ouerthwart creatures If vpon compulsion desperation ensue wo not to the compeller vsing those meanes which God hath appointed and discharging that duetie which God hath commaunded but wo rather and double wo to the despayrer who first framed his conscience to forsake truth and beleeue lies and nowe receiuing the iust reward of his error hath his heart hardened that when good discipline which healeth others is applied as a wholesome medicine to recouer him it causeth or sheweth him to be past cure without any sinister action or ill intention of the Magistrate Thus much for the making and exacting of that oth The contents whereof shall be fully discussed when we come to the place which I named We stand too long I feare about these foolish and impertinent quarels I will passe to your second Chapter as finding nothing left in your first but an action of vnkindnesse against such as call you Fugitiues which name you well deserue though you be loth to beare Phi. That is but your saying which wee little regard Theo. Much lesse neede wee regard your slaunderous and false reports published of purpose to deface this Realme they bee but your sayinges which no good man esteemeth Phi. You fall now to wordes Theo. What else haue you done since we began We be now come to the shutting vp of your first Chapter reuiew the same what one line what one letter haue you proued that hurteth vs or helpeth you Phi. You were not here to looke for many Scriptures or Fathers we giue you the reasons of our departure which bee matters of fact and admit no proofes Theo. If you can not proue them wee neede not disproue them and so let vs end with this and proceede to the next Phi. You answere not halfe that which we haue obiected Theo. You obiect much proue litle which forceth me to neglect the most part of that you haue obiected For when you heape vp idle words that are but winde and raigne ouer your aduersaries with Lordlike vauntes which are better despised than answered why should I follow your vaine humor or bring the cause of Christ to a meere brable or wordes as your Apologie doth Phi. Say your pleasure Theo. Your first Chapter we haue seene what doth your seconde containe Phi. The causes of our repairing sometime to the Citie and Court of Rome Theo. If this be all I will neuer open my mouth for the matter Your priuate actions and secret purposes we can not see wee neede not search Therein you may pretende what you please without any truth and wee beleeue what we list without any wrong Phi. In faith and truth they were none other but to make humble sâ—te for the establishment and perpetuall foundation of the College or Seminarie which his Holinesse had long before instituted in place of the hospitall of our nation there this was one thing Another was that the Gouernours of that College in Rome aboue and of this other now resident in Rhemes beneath might giue and take mutuall direction for correspondence in regiment discipline and education most agreeable to our Countrie mens natures and for preuention of all disorders that youth and companies of Scholers namely in banishment are subiect vnto Theo. It may be this you did but did you nothing else Phi. It was strongly surmised we know that our going to Rome was to procure some matter against the Prince but God is our witnesse it was no part of our meaning Theo. That intelligence was giuen by such as were daily conuersant with you and those articles of confederacie betweene the Pope and others to inuade this Realme were rife in your Seminaries there and closely sent to your friendes here but whether interprised followed by coÌ„mon consent amongst you or only deuised scattered by some of you to strike a feare in the peoples harts to make them the readier for your perswasions we can not exactly say this wee be sure such practises in subiects be lewd seditious Phi. If that informatioÌ„ were true Theo. What reasons haue you to proue it false Phi. Enow The second chapter of our Apologie doth refell it at large Theo. You refell it in deed as your maner is that is you say that you wil without any further proofe or paines Certain yong fellowes say you Fugitiues from their Masters depreheÌ„ded in diuerse cosinages counterfaiting of letters plaine thefts haue of malice hope of impunity and lucre traiterously slaundered you Thus as if you sate supreme Iudges ouer al the world you bring nothing to quite
Rome notwithstanding he professe him selfe an open enemie to the Queene Phi. You still presse vs with that which we neuer ment Theo. You stil defend your selues there where we doe not strike This is the very drift and scope of all your examples as your owne wordes witnes And sor vs of the schoole and Clergie whither should we rather flee than to him Now that he hath openly shewed himselfe an enemie to her Highnes in accursing her Person in remouing her Crowne in forbidding her subiects to obey her in ayding rebelles against her and assaulting her land with force you can not so much as doubt woulde you neuer so faine the facts are so notorious and fresh in the memories of all men Phi. We noted this in you that where the Britanes and Saxons receiued preachers from Rome with honour and thankes you persecute them with all kinde of torments Theo. Your attempt is as contrary to theirs as your reward is diuers from theirs They came with religion to God and submission to Princes you come with neyther Phi. I woulde you knewe it wee come with both And you may bee ashamed to charge vs with two such haynous crimes prouing neyther Theo. Haue patience till wee come to the place where both shall bee discussed and see whether that which is nowe saide shall then be proued or no but in the meane time goe forwarde with the rest of your examples Phi. Wee flee to him of whose predecessors all the famous fathers called for aide comfort and counsel in their like distresses as Cyprian of Cornelius and Stephanus Athanasius of Iulius Chrysostome and Augustine of Innocentius Basil of Liberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie Hierom and Miletius of Damasus Theodoret of Leo the great and all the rest of other holy Popes Theo. This is no reasoning but rouing You florish with a few general and doubtful termes neither opening the causes nor expressing the circumstances They called you say For ayde comfort and counsell What ayde such as the Bishops of Rome might and did yeeld in those dayes without chalenging any supremacie That is nothing to your purpose neither will that warrant your gadding to Rome Such as none could giue but they that were rulers heads of the whole Church That were somewhat if it could bee proued but your examples cōtaine no such thing Uiew the particulars Cyprian in his epistles to Cornelius Stephanus neuer calleth them otherwise than brethren and collegues and in matters concerning the regiment of the Church as well giueth as taketh both counsell and comfort But can you shewe that Cyprian euer allowed any man to runne to Rome for helpe against the iudgements and acts of other Bishops if you can not as wee bee right sure you be not able then can we shew you where Cyprian misliketh and plainely reproueth this posting of yours to Rome writing to Cornelius Hee saith that certaine persons condemned in Africa by the Bishops there Romam cum mendaciorum suorum merce nauigauerunt sailed to Rome with their fraight of lies adding farther And now what is the cause of their comming for either they like that they did and so perseuere in their wickednes or if they mislike relent they know whither they may returne For where it is a thing prescribed to vs al and besides that equal and right that euery mans cause be there heard where the crime was committed and euery Pastor hath his portion of the flocke assigned him which he must gouerne and rule as one that shall giue an accompt of his doings to God Oportet vtique eos quibus praesumus non circūcursare Those that be vnder vs must not runne thus about to Rome but there plead their cause where they may finde both accusers and witnesses vnlesse perhaps a few desperat and loose companions take the authoritie of the Bishops of Africa to be lesse than at Rome The like hee sayth of one Basilides that being depriued of his Bishopricke procured letters from Rome for his restitution Neither can this infringe the ordering of the next Bishop lawfully finished that Basilides running to Rome deceiued Stephanus our collegue by reason he is farre off not acquainted with the truth of the case getting himselfe to be restored vniustly to the Bishopricke from the which he was iustly deposed If Cyprian did not like that Cornelius should medle with matters concluded in Africa neither esteemed the restitution of Basilides made by Stephanus but reiected it as voyde and vniust what other ayde thinke you would he call for at their hands but onely such mutual concorde as should profite the Church and well beseeme the seruantes of Christ Phi. If Cyprian woulde not Athanasius did who being Patriarke of Alexandria fled twise to Rome for succour in his owne person and was there not onely receiued and harboured but also restored to his former dignitie of Iulius notwithstanding the Councels of Tyrus and Antioche had decreed the contrarie and Constantius the Emperour consented thereto Theo. The troubles of Athanasius gaue Iulius good cause both to claime and vse the vttermost of his authoritie The wrong offered Athanasius was so shamefull the madnes of Arians subuerting the faith and oppressing the Church so manifest the rage of Constantius assisting their heresie with all his might so cruell that if euer the Bishop of Rome woulde stirre this time must needes force him to doe his best Phi. And so he did I warrant you Theo. What did hee Phi. You knowe well inough hee summoned the Arians to appeare before him examined their proceedings reuersed the sentence giuen against Athanasius and placed him in his Bishopricke in spite of his aduersaries Theo. Can you proue that Iulius did al this alone without the help of others or that he did any part of this as head of the Church Uicar general to Christ Phi. What cauils you inuent when you be vrged with any thing Theo. What broken reedes you leane too and thinke them strong pillers It is well knowen the Bishop of Rome was not onely Patriarke of the West parts but of the foure Patriarkes also which were the chiefest Bishops of Christendome in order and accompt the first By reason whereof no Councell could be generall vnlesse hee were called no matters concerning the whole Church or principall Patriarks could be handled vnlesse he were present or priuie to the same Which prerogatiue was giuen him by consent of men not by graunt from Christ in respect of the Citie that was the Seate of the Empire then ruling the worlde not in token of any supremacie descending from Peter Thus much we graunt without any proofe of yours more than this if you would sweate out your heartes you shall neuer proue by these nor any other examples of the primitiue Church Phi. Then by your owne confession hee was the chiefest and highest Bishoppe in the worlde Theo. He was before the rest in honour and
of her death Theo. Then suerly was Innocentius all that while a sleepe for the continuall entercourse betweene the two Cities both for temporall and ecclesiasticall affaires was so great the person so famous the time so long that no meane man in Rome could bee ignorant of her death Besides that Innocentius Legats were at Constantinople to intreate Arcadius for a Councell a litle before Chrysostome died and there vnlesse they wanted both eyes and eares they could not choose but learne that the Empresse was dead Phi. She was then liuing as Nicephorus saith Theo. The more he fableth the lesse credite he deserueth Eudoxia died before Arsacius and after his death was Atticus chosen then how could she bee liuing when Atticus was Bishop in whose time the Legats of Innocentius came to intreat for Chrysostome Phi. Let Nicephorus answere for himselfe I layde before you what I finde in him Theo. If this be all you can say for his defence giue vs leaue to tell you that this Bull bearing Innocentius name is some foolish and late forgerie deuised to perswade men that Popes in those dayes coulde quaile Emperours which God knoweth is nothing so Next for Chrysostomes cause as it helpeth you litle so doeth it hinder you much For first Chrysostome when himselfe and his Clergie were called to appeare before the Synode where Theophilus the Patriarke of Alexandria his mortall enemie was the chiefe man appealed from them not to the Bishoppe of Rome but to a generall Councell So sayth Socrates Iohannes eos a quibus vocabatur tanquam inimicos exceptione recusabat vniuersalem Synodum appellabat Chrysostome refused those that called him vppon this exception that they were his enemies and appealed to a generall Councell So sayth Chrysostome himselfe Though wee were absent and appealed to a Synode and sought for iudgement and refused not audience but manifest enimitie yet Theophilus receiued accusors against mee excommunicated such as helde with mee and tooke libels at all their hands which had not yet purged themselues of such crimes as were layde to their charge al which things are contrarie to the lawes and Canons Next when Innocentius saw the matter could not be ended but in a general Councel by reason the three Patriarks of Constantinople Antioche Alexandria were against him he sent Legats to Honorius and Arcadius to beseech them that a Synode might be had and the time and place appointed Wherin his supplication was so litle regarded that his Legats were sent away with reproch as disturbers of the west Empire and Chrysostome caried farther off in banishment than before Lastly when such as fauoured Chrysostome in the East parts would not cōmunicate with his enemies but ioyned themselues in communion with the Bishop of Rome who likewise seuered himselfe from those that were the beginners of this garboyle Arcadius made this Law If any Bishop refuse to communicate with Theophilus Atticus and Porphyrius hee shall loose both his Church and his goods If any that beare office they shall forfeite their dignitie If any Souldier hee shall lose his seruice If any of the common people let them bee fyned and exiled Phi. Will you nowe trust Nicephorus Theo. Sozomene in effect sayth the same For the communion of Arsacius Porphyrius and Theophilus at the suite of the Nobles there was a lawe made that no Christians should meete at prayers out of their Churches and those that woulde not communicate with these three Patriarkes should bee expelled So smally was Innocentius communion at that time respected that the followers of it were sharply punished Phi. You know what manner of men they were that did it Theo. Such as you may not easily despise Entending to write the wrong done to Chrysostome sayth Theodorete I am forced to shrinke at the doers thereof for their other vertues Atticus as Socrates confesseth was a very learned religious and wise man Porphyrius sayth Theodorete left many monuments of his benignitie being a man endewed with excellent wisedome Arcadius besides that Chrysostome calleth him after his banishment Christianissimum pientissimum Regem a most Christian and Godly prince a litle before his death wan estimation of holynes not without the admiration of a great multitude saued from destruction by his prayers Theophilus Epiphanius and others that held tooth and nayle against him were no babes in the Church of Christ. Cyrillus a famous father was after long time with much adoe drawen to yeeld thus much that Chrysostomes name should be rehearsed in the Catalogue of those that had bene Bishops Arsacius if Cyrillus may bee trusted was a blessed man and most worthie of commendation Phi. You goe about to deface Chrysostome by commending his enemies Theo. It is the least part of my thought and yet Socrates doth not altogether excuse him in saying hee was a man Iracundiae magis quà m reuerentiae indulgens more addicted to serue his passions than to reuerence any person And surely the wordes that he spake of the Empresse in his sermon openly before all the people Againe Herodias is madde againe she rageth againe shee daunceth againe she wil haue Iohns head in a dish were very bitter but my meaning is to shewe they were great and good men in the Church that about Chrysostoms quarrell were it right were it wrong neglected the communion of the Bishop of Rome Phi. Though they made light of it in this tumult and faction yet Augustine Hierom and others did highly esteeme it Theo. The communion and felowship of Christian loue and peace may not rashly be broken with any Church especially not with the chiefe and principall Churches vnlesse the cause be weightie and vrgent but looke whē the Bishop of Rome attempted any thing against the faith or the Canons tel me then what accompt they made of him Phi. That you must looke out I know no such thing Theo. So will I when my course commeth but yours as yet is not ended Phi. Myne shall not bee long Theo. As short as you will I thinke the best be spent Phi. Augustine and the fathers assembled in the Mileuitan Councell aske helpe of Innocentius for the condemnation of Pelagius and his heresie Theo. The Bishops of Africa themselues in this and an other Councell helde at Carthage condemned the error of Pelagius as repugnant to the Scriptures and iniurious to the grace of God And because it was a matter of faith that indifferently concerned all they thought it necessarie to aduertise the Bishop of Rome what they had done and to pray him also to condemne the same that as the infection was farre spred and found many defenders so the condemnation thereof might be generall and ratified by the publique liking of the Bishops in euery prouince What can you gather by this but that it was then the manner of the Church as in trueth it was by their letters sent too and fro both to aske and to giue
blood and bowels against them And therefore no maruaile if king Henrie relented somewhat of his former stoutnesse when the king of Fraunce the Earle of Flaunders the king of Scots the yong king his sonne and two other of his children the Duke of Aquitane and Earle of Britaine cōspired against him but it is euident that frō the conquest till the time these lawes and liberties stood in their full force and were publikely receiued and vsed in this Realme Phi. Did the Pope procure him these enemies Theo. What packing there was betweene the French king and the Pope though the stories in this place do not confesse yet we may soone coniecture by the generall drift of your holy Father his blessed adherents in those daies specially by the exāple of king Iohn the sonne of the said king Henrie whom for refusing the disordered election of Stephen Langton to the church of Canterbury Innocentius the 3. so terrified with open inuasion of enemies secret defection of subiects that for safegard of himselfe he was driuen to resigne his kingdome take it againe at the Popes hands in fee farme vnder the yearly rent of a thowsand marks binding himself his heires for euer to do the like homage fealtie to the Bishops of Rome for the crowne of England Which shamefull seruitude of the Prince vtter ruine of the Realme so much displeased the barōs bishops that before toke the Popes part against the king that in plaine contempt of the Popes keies curses they chose them an other king chased king Iohn the Popes farmour from place to place in despite of al y his new Landlord could do or deuise But this I omit because the quarel touched the right title to the crown I medle only with those resistances which the kings of England made for men and matters ecclesiastical Phi. I trust they were not many Theo. For the first hundred yeares next the cōquest it is clear the kings of this Realm would neuer allow their subiects to run to Rome nor suffer appeals to be made to the Pope without their expresse consent now shall you see what they which came after did When king Edw. the 3. reuiued the statute of Premunire made by king Edw. the 1. in the 35. year of his raign against such as sought to Rome to prouide thē of benefices other ecclesiastical promotions wtin this realm enacting the same penalty for those that by processe frō thence impugned any iudgement giuen in the kings courts or brought from Rome any Bul writing or instrumēt to those other like effects Gregory the 11. then Bishop of Rome vnderstanding therof was very earnest against it protesting this was nothing else but to make a schism in the church of Christ to abolish religion to subuert right reason infringe al coūcels speedily dealt with king Edw. to abrogate this law A schisme rising not long after in the church of Rome there was not a Pope that had any care of this til at lēgth Martin the 5. wrote more vehemēt letters to K. H. the 6. But these two bishops of Rome receiued one the same answer which was that an act of Parliament could not be repealed without the autority of a Parliamēt that shortly one should be called to that end which neuer after was performed Yea the king that came after did not only cause that law to be kept put in vre but increased the terror of it with a rigorous punishmēt which is that the party so offending shal forfeit his goods himself be condemned to perpetual imprisonmēt This writer an Italian born a man wedded to the See of Rome confesseth the Popes authority was abated restrained by the lawes of this Realm in the time of king Edward the 3. and so continued euer after that not only the Popes letters were twise refused but the sharpnesse of the punishment increased to strengthen the Statute that pared their power and limited his iurisdiction within this Realme Phi. Perhaps they wtstood him for tēporal matters Theo. The matters were such as your own church accoūteth spiritual to wit electiōs of Bishops gifts of benefices procedings in other causes tending as the cōmplaint of Gregory teacheth you to the diuision of the church extirpation of religion subuersion of al councels which you may not thinke to be temporall matters And this resistance which the Bishop of Rome so much repined at in the daies of king Edward the 3. neuer ceased till king Henry the 8. of famous memory banished the Popes vsurped power cleane out of this Land Phi. So did none of his progenitors before him Theo. It may be they wēt not so far as he did but as Polydor writeth R. Rich. the 2. wēt fairly towards it In a Parliament held the 14. yeare of his raigne the king his princes were of opinion that it would be very good for the realme of England if some part of the Popes dominion were determined with the Sea that is excluded out of this lād for that many wer daily vexed for causes which they thought could not so easily be ended at Rome Wherefore they made a law that no mā euer after should deal with the Bishops of Rome that any person in Englād should by his autority for any cause be excōmunicated that none should execute any such precept if it were sent him If any mā brake this law the pain apointed was he should lose al he had ly in prison during his life And where the pope trauailed by al means to ouerthrow the statute of prouisiō premunire the parliamēt held in the 13. year of Rich. the 2. for the better establishing surer executing of the law made it death for any mā to bring or send Bul or other proces frō Rome to impugn the same These be the words Itē it is ordained established that if any mā bring or send within this realm or the kings power any sūmōs sentēce or excōmunicatiō against any persō of what cōditiō that he be for the cause of making motiō assent or executiō of the said statute of Prouisors or premunire he shal be takē arested put in prison forfeit al his lands tenements goods catle for euer moreouer incur the pain of life mēber So the kingdoms cōmonwelths as wel as councels of al others Frāce England haue from time to time resisted your holy father in the midst of his terror tyrany P. You shew they did it but you do not shew they did wel in it Th. I need not you must shew they did il The prince by gods ordināce beareth the sword not the pope therfore the presumption lieth for the prince against the pope til you proue the cōtrary besids if bishops in a synod may lawfully resist him why may not princes in their parliamēts
do the like Thirdly since the Romane Emperors were wōt to cōmand him what reason cā you bring why christiā princes shold not now restrain him And last of al if you forget not your self my promise was to shew that not in the primatiue Church only when there was no question of his obedience to religious princes but in latter times when the Bishop of Rome presumed to be Lorde ouer all he was controled resisted by those Councels Common-wealthes which your owne Church neuer durst reiect as schismaticall and hereticall Phi. In some thinges they withstood him but not in all thinges as you doe Theo. That shift is litle worth If resistāce be lawful in part why not in al whē iust cause requireth Phi. In matters of faith they neuer resisted Theo. That maketh our resistāce the more lawful They withstood him for an earthly policy we for Christes glorie they for externall discipline we for Apostolicall doctrine Therefore if they might lawfully resist much more may we But my demand is onely whether you see that as the Bishop of Rome withstood others in the regiment of the Church so many Councels Countries Princes Prelats withstood him as the places which I bring conuince Phi. What if they did Theo. First did they that which I speake or no Phi. Grant they did Theo. Then your examples conclude nothing against vs. For as hee resisted others in causes Ecclesiasticall so did others resist him and our examples inferre against you that your owne Church neuer obeied that supreme power and infallible iudgement which he now claimeth you now yeeld to flatter him with Phi. They tooke him for Christes Uicar and Peters successour Theo. How they tooke him in latter ages it greatly skilleth not the learned and ancient Fathers call him Peters successor Christes Uicar they neuer call him And graunt he be Peters successor that importeth no supremacie Phi. Doth it not Theo. No mary doth it not You must first proue that Peter was supreme gouernour of all the Church which you shall neuer do Next you must proue that this dignitie was not proper to Peters person but common to Peters successour which we denie For Peters primacie was giuen him in respect of the confession which he made not in respect of the place which he should inioy Lastly you must shew which of Peters chayres must haue Peters priuiledge that is why Rome rather than Antioch These three points when you iustly proue we will say more to your vaine pretences and glorious titles in the meane time till occasion serue to make farther triall you may go forwarde with the rest of your Apologie which if it be like this it will do your friendes litle good and your foes lesse hurt Phi. You disgrace that which you can not disproue Theo. Wee neede no better disproofe than the sober reading of your insolent and impertinent discourses purposely made to commend and aduaunce your selues and your adherentes aboue the skies Phi. Where do we so Theo. Almost in euerie leafe For example this whole chapter is spent in flattering your holy Father praising his deuout citie The next hath nothing else but the commendation of your selues your Seminaries as if the proclaiming of his your vertues were the chiefest point of his and your faith Phi. You say not well we do not so Theo. Reade the places you shall finde them full of these and such like flowers To Rome Whatsoeuer is learned wise vertuous of all the most famous Vniuersities Monasteries Societies and Celleges through the world is recuiled as to a continuall mar◠of all kinde of doctrine prudence And againe These and such other high experiments with innumerable examples of vertue and deuotion shall this Romane institution giue to our Countrimen vnder the famousest teachers gouernours of youth in our age or som worlds before Who otherwise would admire their pety masters at home the cause of al error ignorāce Ar you not liberal in praising your selues Belike you thinke with your only looks to daūt all the Diuines preachers of Englād as if not a fewe wandring friers craking Iesuites but some new Cyprians or famous Augustins were lately arriued at your Romish Seminarie But let passe your follies come to your autorities To what end aleage you S. Hierō Phi. S. Hierom calleth Rome the place of greatest faith and deuotion Theo. What then Ierusalem was first a faithfull Citie yet in time became a shamelesse strumpet Niniueth was spared for her true repentance afterward plagued for her robberies and lies What Rome was then doeth no way proue what Rome is now You must send vs better reasons from Rome for Rome before you shall perswade vs that there is at Rome such store of learning and vertue as you vaunt of If Rome be changed since Hierom wrate your conclusiō halteth though his wordes goe right Phi. That change you must proue Theo. Alas good Sirs begin you now to doubt whether Rome be changed Reade your owne Friers Monkes and Abbots and you shall soone be resolued in that doubt Frier Mantuan sayth shortly but truely Viuere qui sanctè cupitis discedite Roma Omnia cum liceant non licet esse bonum You that wish to liue godly depart from Rome al things are there suffred saue godlines Mathew Paris a Monke of S. Albons euery where toucheth the vertues of the church of Rome saith they were known to the verie miscreants For when y◠Souldan of Iconium desired to be baptised from Rome his nobles by reason of so many vices abounding at Rome sayd Howe can there come sweet and salt water from the same fountaine whence Christians should fet the water of righteousnes there they find a poysoned pudle And in the yere of our Lord 1241 he sayth The vnsatiable greedines of the Church of Rome so increased confounding right and wrong that without shame as a common impudent harlot she lay open for money to euery man counting vsurie for a small fault and Symonie for none But no man more liuely describeth the maners and dispositions of the latter Romanes than Bernard Abbot of Clareuallis and that not priuily behind their backs but openly to their faces forewarning Eugenius the pope what to looke for at their hands Quid tam notum seculis quà m proteruia fastus Romanorum Gens insueta paci tumultui assueta Gens immitis intractabilis vsque ad huc subdi nescia nisi cum non valet resistere Experire paucis nouerim ne ego gentis mores Ante omnia sapientes sunt vt faciant mala bonum autem facere nesciunt Impij in deum temerarij in sancta seditiosi in inuicem emuli in vicinos inhumani in extraneos Hij sunt qui subesse non sustinēt praeesse non norunt superioribus infideles inferioribus importabiles inuericundi ad petendum ad negandum frontosi
not carnal hir delights are not outward in flesh but inward in grace the prophet good mā had no leasure to thinke on your farms demeans reuenues This promise must be common to the faithfull not priuat to your cloisterers which in earthly things plied the bottle so fast that they suckt their nurces dry No remedy you must needs yeeld vs that christiā princes in respect of their office not of their riches haue receiued an expresse commandemēt from God to shew thēselues nurces to his church Now nurces by nature must prouide food for their infants defend them from dāger ergo kings queenes in the new testamēt are boūd to tēder the church of Christ by their princely power publik lawes to defend the same from infection of heresies inuasion of schisms all other apparent corruptions of faith good maners Who saith S. Aug. being in his right wits wil say to christiā kings take you no care who defēdeth or impugneth in your realms the church of christ your master Let it not pertain to you who lift to be religious or sacrilegious within your kingdōs And left he should seem skāt resolued in this opinion he biddeth opē defiāce to the Donatists in these words Cry thus if you dare let murders be punished let adulteries be punished let other degrees of lust sinne be punished only sacrileges that is cōtēpt of God his truth or his church we wil not haue punished by princes lawes And againe Will the Donatists though they were cōuinced of a sacrilegious schisme say that it belongeth not to the princes power to correct or punish such things Is it because such powers do not stretch to corrupt false religiō But christiā emperors persecute the Pagās doth that displease thē The works of the flesh Paul nūbreth these fornicatiō vncleanes strife dissentiō heresie drunkēnes such other What thinke these mē may the crime of idolatry be iustly reuēged by the magistrate wel if that like them not why cōfesse they that witches be rightly punished by the rigor of princes lawes will not agnise that heretikes schismatikes may bee repressed by the same seeing Paul doth rehearse them togither with other fruites of iniquity Will they reply that earthly powers are not to medle with such matters of religion To what end then beareth he the sword which is called Gods minister seruing to punish malefactors Certainly Princes c. If this learned father can not fray you from reuiuing the frantick error of the Donatists against the Princes power in matters of religion I trust you will somwhat reuerence the precept which our Sauior in his Gospell gaue the magistrate when he had the first sort of ghestes to be brought to the great supper the second to be forced Go sayth he forth into the wayes and hedges Compell thē to come in that mine house may be filled Wee take wayes sayth Austen for heresies hedges for schismes because wayes in this place signifie the diuersenes and hedges the peruersenes of opinions House God hath none but his house of prayer neither table beside the Lords table So that this seruant is expressely charged to Compel them from heresies and schismes to the confession of truth consent of prayer and communion of the Lordes table To performe this Christ hath left no seruant but the minister or the magistrat no meanes saue the word or the sword To compell heretiks and schismatiks neither is it possible for the preacher if he would nor lawful if he could he lacketh both meanes and leaue to constraine them His calling is with patience to teach not with violence to force to feede not to stryke to reproue with tongue not to subdue with hand Only the Prince beareth the sword which can and may compell recusants and therefore Bishops since they be flatly forbidden to Rayne must not meddle with the material sword being the chiefest part strength of an earthly kingdom neither ought any to draw the sword but he that holdeth it in Gods stead to reward and reuenge Ergo these wordes Compell them to come in that mine house may be filled were spoken to Christian Princes and are to them both a warrant and a charge to represse schismes and heresies with their Princely power which they receiued from aboue cheefly to maintaine Gods glorie by causing the bands of vnitie to be preserued in the Church and the rules of fayth obserued To the same purpose S. Austen in many places alleageth this parable The Lord himself sayth he willed the ghests first to be brought then to be forced What meaneth he by this Compell them to come when as he sayd of the first bring them If he ment they should be compelled by terror of miracles then might the first sort of ghests which saw many diuine wonders be rather thought to be forced but if by the power which the Church receaued at Gods hand in due time through the religion faith of kings those that are found in high wayes hedges that is in heresies schismes must be compelled to come let them not mislike that they be forced This cōmaunding by Princely power occasioneth many to be saued which though they be violently brought to the feast of the great householder and compelled to come yet being within they find cause to reioyce that they did enter for both sorts of commers as well violently forced as willingly brought the Lord fortold hath fulfilled Therfore let earthly princes serue Christ in making Lawes for Christ wherby mē may be forced to come to the great holy banquet yea by banishments other losses let their subiects begin to weigh with themselues what why they suffer learne to prefer the Scriptures which they read before the reportes and cauils of mē I thinke it superfluous to staie longer in confirming so manifest a truth He that is of God heareth the words of God he that impugneth them quarreleth not with Princes which yet is no small offence but with him by whom Princes raigne whose wisedom may not easily be neglected nor will resisted If you deny that this is the Princes charge to see the law of God fully executed his Sonne rightly serued his spouse safely nourced his house timely filled his enemies duely punished you must counteruaile that which Moses prescribed Dauid required Esay prophesied Paul witnessed Christ commaunded with some better sounder authority than theirs is If you grant so much we wil aske no more the Princes duety to God once cōfessed the rest shal quickly be concluded Phi. In a sense it is true that you say Theo. It is simply true that I say for in your owne iudgement may the Christian faith be freely permitted publikely receiued in kingdoms common wealthes Phi. No doubt Theo. May godly discipline be likewise planted and preserued amongest men and the disturbers and neglecters of it repressed and ordered
yet by Gods and mans ordinance it is so diuided that euery one of you in his order and calling hath a part of our charge in so much that I should bee your admonisher and you all my coadiutors For which respect our intent is by other good meanes and by commissioners appointed for this purpose to learne and trie howe well our lieutenants fauour and execute iustice and howe religiously our Bishops liue and preach WILLING TOV ALL VVITHOVT EXCEPTION TO OBSERVE OVR COMMANDEMENT IN ALL THINGS AND HONOVR SVCH AS WE SEND FOR ANY OCCASION OR BVSINES EITHER ECCLESIASTICALL OR TEMPORAL AND IN RESPECT OF OVR AVTHORITIE NOT TO FAILE BVT PERFORME THOSE THINGS WHICH WE HAVE ENIOYNED YOV BY THEM Nowe the charge that wee giue our visitours is this First they shall indict assemblies in two or three places whither all within the limittes of their commission shall resort and there make it knowne to all men what is the summe and effect of their message to witte that wee haue appointed them for this cause that IF ANY BISHOP or Lieutenant can not do his duetie by reason of any impediment hee should haue recourse to them and by their helpe discharge his dutie and if the matter bee such as by their industrie can not bee redressed then shall it bee brought by them to our knowledge and againe IF ANY BISHOP or Lieutenant BE FOVND NEGLIGENT IN HIS OFFICE by their monition he shal be refourmed Wee charge them likewise to make knowen to all men the Chapters or Lawes QVAE GENERALITER DE QVIBVSCVNQVE CAVSIS STATVIMVS WHICH WE HAVE DECREED GENERALLY CONCERNING ALL MANER OF CAVSES and do their best to see them throughly kept of all men And if any of the things which we haue ordained and commaunded be found imperfect by some defect happily which they can not amend then shall they with speede make relation thereof to vs that we may correct that which they cannot And because the last yere our expectation was not satisfied in such sort as we looked for we will that this present yere our visitours whom wee haue allotted to this seruice haue better respect and care how euery man that we haue preferred to the gouernance of our people in his calling dischargeth his dewtie to Gods pleasure our honor the benefite of our subiects and this shall be the very course of their inquirie whether the things contained in our Capitular which we deliuered them this yere past be kept and obserued according to Gods will our commaundement Therefore about the midst of May next shall they assemble I meane our visitours euerie man in his diuision with all the Bishops Abbats Lieuetenants our fee men and aduocats the Abbesses and such as cannot come to send their proxies the liuetenant to bring with him his vnder officers and hundreders and in that conuent shall they first conferre touching Christian religion and ecclesiastical order next they shall inquire of our officers how they doe their duties last of our people in what concord and peace they liue And this inquisition shall they make so diligently and exactly that we may be trewly certified by thē of al these points And if any such cause be brought before thē which needeth their help according to the condition of the causes specified in the short rehearsal of our lawes then our wil is they shall go to the place and redresse it by the warrant of our authoritie You can neither bee so simple but you may see nor so partial but you must graunt that Ludouike and Lotharius behaued themselues as rightful superuisours of the Bishops in their Empire how they liued and preached ayding those that were hindered correcting those that were negligent in their ministeries and sent visitours to inquire and redresse by their Princely power any cause that needed reformation in Christian religion or ecclesiastical order commaunding all men generally to reuerence and obay them as wel in ecclesiastical as common wealth matters in respect of their royal authoritie What more than this doth that oth impart which you so much declaime against Or what lesse than this did Ludouike and Lotharius execute Can their proceedings please you and our words expressing the selfesame right offend you You must either reiect both or admit both they bee so neare linked you can not disseuer them I now make your selfe iudge whether these Christian and Catholike Princes were not commaunders and punishers those we call gouernours of Bishops Priests and Moncks in maters and causes ecclesiasticall Phi. I see they were but yet not supreme which is the cheefest thing that we mislike in your oth Theo. I beleeue you well for by that worde we denie Princes to bee subiect to the Popes consistorie which is the chiefest thing you respect Phi. That worde maketh them superiours to God himselfe for supreme is superiour to all neither Christes owne person nor his Church excepted Theo. Can you make such merriments when you be disposed Phi. Doth not the word inferre superiour to all or at least subiect to none Theo. Was it in question when this othe was made whether God should be superior to man or whether Princes should bee subiect to the Pope Phi. It skilleth not what was then in question these bee nowe your woordes Theo. By this cunning you may conclude all that euer wrate with pen or spake with tongue to be wicked blasphemers Phi. Why so Theo. Where the superlatiue is vsed by your rule God himselfe is not excepted And so these phrases a most wise teacher a most holy Bishoppe a most mightie prince and ten thousand such like which we find in all mens bookes and speeches bee meere impieties For they import that many bee wiser holyer and mightier than Christ himselfe or at lest as wise holy and mightie as he which is open inexcusable blasphemie Name me what father or writer you will and see by this art of yours whether I proue him not a blasphemer Phi. That is no right vnderstanding but a foolish carping at mens wordes For when we giue these titles to men sanctissimus potentissimus beatissimus the most holy father the most puissant king the most blessed Martyr we meane amongst men wee compare them not with God Theo. And since all men euen your selues speake so why doe you take that foolish aduantage at the word supreme which we vse as if we ment not amongst men but exalted Princes aboue God Phi. But the Church of Christ is not excepted and that consisteth of men Theo. If by the Church of Christ you meane the faithfull liuing on earth certainely Princes be not subiect but superiours to all Christian men Peter spake to the chosen and elect of God when hee sayde Bee subiect to the king as to the chiefe Paul willed Titus to warne not the miscreants but the beleeuers in Creta to bee subiect to principalities and powers and wrate himselfe to all the Saintes at Rome
Father or Councell for 800. yeares that proueth the Pope superiour to the Prince Bring somwhat to that end or else say you can not and I am answered Phi. I proue the church superior to the Prince which is enough to confute the supreme power that you giue to Princes Theo. And what for the Pope Shall he be superiour to Princes or no Phi. We wil talke of that an other time we be now reasoning of the church which I trust you will grant to be superiour to Princes God saide to the Church The nation and kingdom that will not serue thee shall perish And kinges shall serue thee Theo. This is right the trade of your Apologie to pretende the church and meane the Pope You sawe you were neuer able to proue the Popes vsurped power ouer Princes and therefore you thought it best to put a visarde of the Church vppon the Popes face and to bring him in that sort disguised to the stage to deceiue the simple with the sounde and shewe of the Church And for that cause your fourth chapter neuer nameth the Pope but stil vrgeth The regiment of the church The iudgement of the church The churches tribunall conuerted kingdomes must serue the church and euerie where the church the church and when the Church is confessed to bee superiour to Princes you set vppe the Pope as heade of the Church to take from her all the superioritie power and authoritie which before you claymed for her and so you make the Church but a cloke-bagge to carrie the Popes titles after him but staie your wisedomes the Church may bee superiour and yet the Pope subiect to Princes Kinges may serue the Church and yet commaund your holie father and his gymmoes the parish Priestes of Rome for their turning winding euery way iustly called Cardinals Phi. Can Princes bee supreme and the church their superiour Theo. Why not Phi. If any thing bee superiour Princes bee not supreme Theo. That I denie The Scriptures bee superiour to Princes and yet they supreme the Sacramentes bee likewise aboue them and yet that hindereth not their supremacie Truth Grace Faith Prayer and other Ghostlie vertues bee higher than all earthly states and all this notwithstanding Princes may bee supreme gouernours of their kingdomes and Countries Phi. You cauill nowe you shoulde compare persons with persons and not thinges with persons there may bee thinges aboue Princes and yet they supreme but if anie persons bee superiour then can they not bee supreme Theo. No The Sainctes in heauen and Angels of God bee persons superiour to Princes and yet may Princes bee supreme Phi. Why Theophilus these bee wrangling quiddities for shame leaue them The Sainctes bee superiour in perfection and dignitie but not in externall vocation and authoritie Theo. I like that you saie but if you looke backe you shall see Philander that you giue iudgement against your selfe Phi. Against my selfe Why so Theo. The Church is superiour to Princes for those very respectes which I nowe repeated First because the Saincts in heauen which are part of the church in happines perfection and dignitie bee many degrees aboue worldely states Secondly though the members of the Church bee subiect and obedient to Princes yet the thinges contayned in the Church and bestowed on the Church by God him-selfe I meane the light of his worde the working of his Sacramentes the giftes of his grace and fruites of his spirite bee farre superiour to all Princes Nowe view your consequent The Church in respect of her members in heauen and graces on earth is aboue the Prince ergo the Prince is not supreme but subiect to the Pope This is worse than wrangling You confound things and persons heauen and earth God and man to beare out the Popes pride Phi. You stretch the name of the church whither you list Theo. I may better stretch it to these thinges which I specifie than you restraine it to one onelie man as you doe But why doe I stretch the church farther than I should The Sainctes in heauen bee they not members of the church Phi. They bee membees of the church which is in heauen Theo. And the church in heauen is it an other church from this on earth or the same with it Phi. I thinke it bee the same Theo. You must not goe by thoughtes Sainct Paul saith You are of the same citie with the Sainctes and Ierusalem which is aboue is no straunger to vs but the mother of vs all Cum ipsis Angelis sumus vna ciuitas Dei cuius pars in nobis peregrinatur pars in illis opitulatur Wee saith Austen are one and the same citie of God with the Angels whereof part wandereth on earth in vs part in them assisteth vs. And againe The true Sion and true Ierusalem is euerlasting in heauen which is the mother of vs all She hath begotten vs shee hath nurced vs in part a stranger on earth in a greater part remaining in heauen For the soules of the godly that be dead be not seuered from the church which euen now is the kingdome of Christ. Certaynely Christ hath but one bodie which is his church and of that body since the Sainctes be the greater and worthier part they must bee counted of the same Church with vs. Phi. I stick not at that so much as at the next where you make the word and Sacramentes togither with their effectes and fruites to be parts of the church Theo. I do not say they be members of the Church but thinges required in the church without the which we can neither become nor continue the members of Christ. In a naturall bodie the spirits and faculties be no members yet without them the members haue neither life motion sense nor action So in the mysticall bodie of Christ the members be men but the meanes and helpes to make vs and keepe vs the members of Christ are the word and Sacraments without the which we can neither be planted quickned nor nourished in Christ. For the members be dead if they liue not by faith if they grow not by grace if they cleaue not by loue to their heade and moue at his will by obedience And therefore these thinges though they bee not members yet they bee ioyntes and sinewes vaines and vessels that giue life groeth strength and state to the bodie of Christ which is his church and may iustly bee called the principall powers or partes of his bodie Phi. Powers if you will but not partes Theo. As though the powers of the soule were not partes of the soule Phi. Not properly partes but powers and faculties Theo. What call you partes Phi. Whereof the whole consisteth Theo. And since without these there can be no Church ergo these be partes of the church Phi. You take partes very largely Theo. No larger than I should The foundation of the house is it not a part of the house Phi. Yes a chiefe
all the wordes of the lawe keeping and obseruing are not there referred to his priuate actions as a man but to his publike function as a king and therefore the king in these wordes receiued the charge and ouersight of the whole lawe that is an expresse commaundement from God to see the lawe kept and euerie part thereof obserued of all men within his Dominions and the breakers of it Prophetes Priestes and People to bee duely punished Nowe the Lawe contained all thinges that any way touched the true seruice and worshippe of God ergo the king had one and the selfe-same power and charge to commaund and punish as well for the preceptes of pietie as other pointes of policie neither did God fauour or prosper any of the kinges of Israell or Iudah but such as chiefly respected and carefully maintained the ordinances of Religion prescribed vnto them in Moses lawe In the times of the Prophetes saith S. Augustine all the kinges which in the people of God did not forbid and ouerthrow those thinges which were brought in against the commandementes of God are blamed and they that did prohibite and subuert such thinges are praysed aboue the rest God blessed Salomon with wisedome honour riches and peace so long as hee walked in the steppes of Dauid his father during the which time Salomon did dedicate the Temple in his owne person and cast out Abiathar from being Priest vnto the Lord and set Zadocke in his roome but when his heart once turned from God to builde places also for Idols and to suffer his outlandish wiues to burne incense and offeringes to their Gods then the Lorde was angrie with Salomon and stirred vppe aduersaries against him and threatned to rent his kingdom from him and to giue it to his seruant Asa tooke awaie the Altars of the strange Gods and the high places and brake downe the images and cut downe the groues and commaunded Iudah to seeke the Lord God of their fathers and tooke awaie out of all the cities of Iudah the high places and images therefore the kingdome was quiet before him And hee tooke an oth of all Iudah and Beniamin that Whosoeuer woulde not seeke the Lorde God of Israell shoulde be slaine whether hee were small or great man or woman and hee deposed Maachah his mother from her regencie because she had made an idoll Asa brake downe her idol and stamped it and burnt it and the Lord gaue him rest round about Iehosaphat his sonne walked in the first waies of Dauid and sought the Lord God of his father and walked in his commaundementes and therefore the Lord established the kingdome in his handes so that hee had riches and honour in aboundance In the thirde yeare of his raigne he sent his Princes that they should teach in the cities of Iudah and with them Leuites and Pristes and him selfe went through the people from Beer-sheba to Mount-Ephraim and brought them againe to the Lord God of their fathers In Ierusalem he sent of the Leuites and of the Priests and of the chiefe of the families of Israell for the iudgement and cause of the Lord. And he charged them saying Thus shal ye do in the feare of the Lord faithfully and with a perfect heart Thus shall ye do and trespasse not And behold Amariah the Priest shall be the chiefe among you for al the matters of the Lord and Zebadiah for all the kinges affaires and the Leuites shall be helpers vnto you Be strong and doe it And when the Moabites and Ammonites came against him he proclaimed a fast throughout all Iudah and stood in the congregation of Iudah and Ierusalem in the house of the Lord prayed in his owne person for all the people Ezechiah did vprightly in the sight of the Lord according to all that Dauid his father had done Hee opened the doores of the house of the Lorde and brought in the Priestes and the Leuites and saide vnto them heare mee yee Leuites sanctifie your selues and sanctifie the house of the Lord God of your fathers I purpose to make a couenant with the Lord God of Israell And they sanctified themselues according to the commaundement of the king And the king rose early and gathered the Princes of the citie and went vppe to the house of the Lord. And they brought sinne-offeringes and Ezechiah commaunded to offer the burnt offering vppon the Altar yea hee commaunded the Priestes the sonnes of Aaron to offer them And when they had made an end of offering Ezechiah the king the Princes commaunded the Leuites to praise the Lord with the wordes of Dauid and Asaph the Seer And Ezechiah sent to all Israell and Iudah also wrote letters to Ephraim and Manasses that they should come to the house of the Lord at Ierusalem to keepe the Passouer So the Postes went with letters by the commission of the king and his Princes throughout all Israel and Iudah and with the commandement of the king saying Yee children of Israell turne againe vnto the Lord God of Abraham Isaac and Israell And the hand of God was in Iudah so that he gaue them one heart to doe the commaundement of the King And Ezechiah appointed the courses of the Priestes and Leuites by their turnes euerie man according to his office for the burnt offeringes and peace offeringes to minister and giue thankes to praise in the gates of the tentes of the Lord. And in all the workes that hee beganne for the seruice of the house of God hee did it with all his heart and prospered Hee tooke away the high places and brake the Images and cutte downe the groues and brake in peeces the brasen Serpent which Moses had made for in those dayes the children of Israell did burne incense to it Manasses at the first wēt back built the high places which Ezechiah his father had broken down and set vp altars for Baalim made groues worshipped all the host of heauen serued them but after hee was taken by the king of Babylon put in fetters bound in chaines he hūbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers God was intreated of him and heard his prayer and brought him againe to Ierusalem into his kingdom Then hee tooke awaie the strange Gods and the image out of the house of the Lord and all the Altars that hee had built in the mount of the Lordes house and in Ierusalem and cast them out of the citie Also he repaired the Altar of the Lord and sacrificed thereon peace-offeringes and of thankes and commaunded Iudah to serue the Lord God of Israell Iosiah in the eight yeare of his raigne when he was yet a childe of sixeteene yeares began to seeke after the God of Dauid his father and in the twelfth yeare he began to purge Iudah Ierusalem from the high places the groues and the carued and
and our lawes If either side mislike the cause shal deuolue to the Patriarke of the Prouince and he shall end it by the direction of the Canons and our lawes Clerks we permit none to bee made except they be lettered of a right faith honest conuersation haue neither Concubine nor bastardes but such as either be single men or had or haue one lawful wife and her the first no widowe nor diuorced woman nor otherwise interdicted by the lawes or Canons A Priest wee will not haue made vnder the age of fiue and thirtie neither a Deacon or Subdeacon vnder the age of fiue and twentie neither a Reader vnder eighteene A woman shall not bee admitted to serue the Church that is vnder fourtie or hath beene twise maried Many skore precepts besides these that I recken shall you finde in that constitution touching persons and causes ecclesiasticall with these words Volumus sancimus iubemus Wee wil decree commaund and other verbes equiualent prescribing directly to Bishops what order and course they shall keepe for the seemely regiment of Christes Church By the commandement of Iustinus vncle to Iustinian the Councell of Chalcedon was preached and established through the most holy Churches And by the commandement of an other Iustinus his nephew was Gregorie called from Mount Sina to be chiefe Bishoppe of Antioch next after Anastasius whom the Prince remoued from his seate for wasting the Church treasures Leo the successor and Anthemius that maried the daughter of Martian gaue forth this commandement Let no man be made a Bishop for intreatie or for mony If any man be detected to haue gotteÌ„ the seate of a bishop by rewards or to haue taken any thing for the electing or ordering of others let him be accused as for a publike crime and an offence committed against the state repelled from his priestly degree And we adiudge him not only to be depriued for euer of that honor but also to be condeÌ„ned to perpetual infamie And the same princes by their Edict more general We decree say they that those thinges which were in sort done against the Lord himselfe of true religion being abrogated and vtterly abolished al things be restoared againe to their former condition and order in which they were established before our times as well touching the points of christian faith as touching the state of the most sacred churches Martyrs chappels Al innouations in the time of this tyrannie against the holy churches their reuerend bishops concerning the right of their Episcopall creations the deposing of any Bishop during those times their prerogatiue to sit before others within Councell or without the priuileges of Metropolitanes and Patriarks al such innouations we say repealed Let the grants CONSTITVTIONS of the godly Princes before vs and likewise ours touching churches chappels of Martyrs Bishops Clerkes and Monkes be kept inuiolable Much more might be sayd but this shal suffice You bring vs one seely mistaken authoritie where Constantius commaunding against right and trueth in a Bishoppes cause was reproued wee bring you if you viewe the precedents well an hundred expresse places and aboue that auncient and religious princes commaunded Bishoppes and Councels in matters of doctrine and discipline and were not reproued but honoured and obeyed in the Church of God Now choose whether you will shew your selues so voyd of al religion reason that you will preferre a single and solitarie text and the same so many wayes answered by vs before the publike and perpetuall practise of the primatiue Church or else acknowledge with vs that Princes for trueth did might commaund Bishoppes and preuent and punish in them as well errors in fayth as other ecclesiasticall crimes and disorders Phi. All this I may graunt and yet your supremacie will not followe Theo. Neuer tell vs what you may doe but what you will doe Deny the premisses if you dare or the consequent if you can Phi. I graunt Princes may commaunde Bishoppes but not what they list which is your opinion Theo. If you may bee the reporter of our doctrines wee shall defende many mad positions leaue your malitious and odious slaunders wee maintaine no such opinion Phi. What doe you then Theo. If you did not range thus besides all order and trueth you should perceiue what wee doe but when wee come to conclude you slide from the matter and fall to your wonted outfacing and wrangling Phi. Doe I not answere directly to that which you aske Theo. For a while you doe but when we come to touch the quicke you start aside and busie the reader with other quarrels Forbeare that till wee come to the sifting of your absurdities and then take your fill In the meane time suffer vs to say what we defend and to know what you assent vnto that the difference betwixt our opinions may be rightly conceiued and the proofes of either part duely considered Phi. With a good will Theo. Doe you then 〈◊〉 for a matter fully proued that auncient kings and Christian Emperours 〈◊〉 â—â—â—maund for trueth as well Priest as people and that they chiefly did and iuâ—â—ly might enterpose their royall power and care for the reformation and correction of errours in fayth abuses in discipline disorders in life and all other ecclesiasticall enormities as appeareth plainely by the publike lawes and acts of Constantine Theodosius Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and other no lesse Godly than worthie Gouernours If the places which I haue brought import not so much refell the particulars I will be of your mind if they doe why stande you so doubtfull as lothe to confesse and yet not able to gainesay the proofes Phi. For trueth I knowe Princes haue commaunded as well Bishops as others and vy their Princely power established and preserued the faith and Canons of Christes Church Theo. And this the sacred Scriptures the learned fathers the stories ecclesiasticall the lawes and monuments of Catholike Princes in the primatiue church of Christ for eight hundred and fiftie yeres doe fairely warrant Phi. They do Theo. And the places that proue this are both innumerable and inexpugnable Phi. The proofes for this point bee pregnant euough Theo. And this is no way repugnant to probabilitie possibilitie reason or nature Phi. It is not Theo. You will not eate these words when you come to the purpose Phi. I will not Theo. And if you were to bee sworne on a booke doe you beleeue in your conscience this which you say to bee true Phi. I doe Theo. Then here I will stay Phi. Haue I not answered directly to your questions Theo. You haue and wee vrge you no farther Phi. What are you the nearer Theo. That shall you now see You make shamefull outcries at the power which we giue to Princes to be supreme Gouernours of their Realmes in al thinges and causes as wel ecclesiastical as temporal as A thing improbable vnreasonable vnnaturall
Theo. S. Paul expressely writeth of the Prince that He beareth the sword not without cause and is Gods minister to reuenge him that doth euil And our Sauiour seuerely forbiddeth Peter the rest of his Apostles to medle with the sword All that take the sword shall perish by the sworde and to them all You know that kinges of Nations raigne ouer theÌ„ and they that be great exercise authoritie with you it shall not be so The sword is but the signe of publike and Princely power and where the thing is not lawfull the signe is vnlawfull Since then the Lord interdicteth his Apostles and messengers all princely power it is euident the sword which is but a signe thereof is likewise interdicted them Thus much Bernard sticketh not to tell Pope Eugenius to his face It is the Lordes voice in the Gospell Kinges of Nations are Lordes ouer them and they that haue power on them are called gracious and the Lord inferreth you shall not be so It is a cleare case the Apostles are forbidden dominion Go thou then saith Bernard to the Pope and vsurpe if thou dare either an Apostleship if thou be a Prince or dominion if thou be Apostolik Thou art expressely forbidden one of them If thou wilt haue both thou shalt loose both The paterne of an Apostle is this dominion is interdicted seruice is inioyned Gird thy selfe with thy sworde the sworde of the spirit which is the word of God And this Pope Nicholas fairely confesseth The church of God hath no sword but the spirituall wherewith she quickeneth she killeth not Your owne law saith It is easily proued of Bishops and other clergimen whatsoeuer that they may not either by their owne authoritie or by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome take weapon in hand exercise the materiall sworde addeth this reason For euery man besides him and his authoritie which hath lawfull power and which as the Apostle saith beareth the sworde not without cause to whom euerie soule ought to bee subiect euery man I say that without this authoritie taketh the sword shall perish with the sword He that beareth the sword may lawfully put malefactors to death and wage warre with his enimies when neede so requireth which Bishops may not doe The weapons of our warfare are not carnall saith S. Paul Quid Episcopis cum bello What haue Bishops to do with batle saith Athanasius Ambrose Pugnare non debeo I ought not to fight If they may not fight much lesse kil if they may do neither they can not beare the sword which is appointed by God receiued of men to doe both The words of our Sauior are cleare with vs for the negatiue My kingdom saith he is not of this world If then your Priests Prelats Popes wil be the seruants of Christ they must chaleÌ„ge no worldly kingdom as froÌ„ him or in his name The seruant is not aboue his master If the master with his own mouth haue denied it the seruaÌ„ts may not affirm it or vsurp it The souldiers of Christ must not intangle them-selues with secular affaires much lesse make themselues Lords and iudges of earthly matters which office properly belongeth to the sworde and must be sustained of all those that beare the sword The Popes themselues before their power and pride grew so great were of this opinion with vs. When the truth which is Christ was once come after that saith Pope Nicolas neither did the Emperour take vppon him the Bishops right nor the Bishop vsurpe the Emperours name because the same mediatour of God and man the man Christ Iesus distinguisheth the offices of ech power with proper actions and different dignities to this end that the Bishop which is a souldier vnto God shoulde not intangle and snare himselfe with wordly affaires and againe the Prince which is occupied in earthly matters should not be Ruler of diuine things The very same text word for word your Decrees make Cyprian write to Iulian the Emperour if those be Cyprians wordes and not rather an impudent forgerie in his name For how could Cyprian that died vnder Valerian 260. after Christ write to Iulian that began his raigne 360. after Christ But such proppes are fittest to bolster vp your kingdom of darkenesse and error Sure it is which the wordes of our Sauiour apparantly proue that all the Disciples and Apostles of Christ are straitly charged not to medle with princely Scepters and swordes and therefore out of all question only Princes beare the sworde within their owne Realmes and dominions for so much as that honour and power is expressely prohibited and interdicted by the Lord himselfe to all Preachers and Bishops Phi. This wee woulde haue graunted you with halfe these wordes Theo. And this wee woulde haue depende not on your grant which is fickle but on such proofes as we might make iust accouÌ„t of Phi. How then Theo. As the first is apparant that onely Princes haue the sword committed to their charge by Gods appointmeÌ„t so the next is as euident that the sword I meane the publike authoritie of Magistrats in Christian common-wealthes hath been may be and should be vsed for the receiuing establishing and deâ—ending of that which is good and prohibiting abolishing and punishing of that which is euill in all spirituall and ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as well as in temporall which the sacred Scriptures the auncient Fathers the Church Stories the lawes and examples of al ages and countries do sufficiently proue as you saw before Phi. This is not it that we stand on Theo. This is that we affirme stand you on what you lift Phi. If this be granted what will you conclude Theo. If this be proued you shall see what we conclude If it bee not shew where the defect is Phi. That onely Princes beare the sword within their own realms which may be and should bee vsed for the receiuing establishing and defending of the faith Cannons of the church all thinges incident or pertinent to the same and for prohibiting and punishing whatsoeuer is repugnant to either in this we finde no defect Let vs therefore see what you will infer The. First then the words of our oth that Her Highnes is the only gouernor of this realm bearing the sword as wel in al spiritual or ecclesiastical things causes as teÌ„poral be not only tolerable resonable but such by your own coÌ„fessioÌ„ as we may truly defend you can not iustly confute Next the absurdities which you bring against vs as if we deriued the spirituall power of preaching baptizing binding loosing imposing handes and offering prayers to God from the Princes Soueraigne right and title which we doe not all these absurdities I say bee mere follies grounded vpon the carelesse mistaking if not spitefull peruerting of our wordes Thirdly your defacing and imâ—â—ouing the Princes sworde and aduauncing and defending against
any age euer saide the contrarie Theo. Name any catholike Diuine for a thowsand yeares after Christ that euer saide so In deede some popish prelats and writers of late yeares finding that a compendious waie to strengthen the Popes kingdom to make a speedy dispatch of such as should molest them haue not by diuinitie but by conspiracie concluded that Princes may be deposed resisted euen by their owne subiects contrary to the law of God the doctrine of the Apostles and the perpetuall patience of Christs church Phi. I wil set you downe some catholike writers about this matter albeit but fewe for breuity sake yet of such excellent credit as shal be able to instruct and satisfie any reasonable conscience in this case as also to be our brethrens defence against all those that charge them so deadly with these treasonable propositions Theo. The simplest christian that is except you take a rebellious hart for a reasonable conscience wil looke for some better authority to saue himselfe from damnatiō which God threatneth to all that resist powers than your own schoolmen companions linked in the same faction with you liuing not long before you And this seely defence of your brethren by the corrupt verdict of your confederates is rather a discredit to your whole cause than a clearing of them from traiterous deuises or as you speake from treasonable propositions Phi. Thomas Aquin that glorious Saint Clerke whose only sentence weigheth more thā al the Protestāts wits words in the world saith thus Postquā Princeps est denūciatus apostata omnes inferiores subditi absoluūtur a praestito turamēto obedientia illi debita that is to say after a Prince is once denounced to bee an Apostata all his inferiours subiects are assoiled of their oth made vnto him and of their obedience vnto him This case is plainely resolued vpon by the greatest of all the schoole Doctors and therefore can be no reasonable assertion or opinion Theo. We are now neither to sift your saints nor examine your clerks much lesse to debate whether the resolution of a popish Monk drown the wits pains of them al that God hath since called to the knowledge of his truth your passing pride I leaue to the iudgmēt of the wise The credit of Thomas is not so excellēt as you make it nor his saintship so glorious He wrot more thā 1200. yeres after Christ was both ouerwhelmed with the corruption of his time wholy wedded to the See of Rome Scripture or father he bringeth none but barely standeth on the example of Gregory the 7. who first practised this wicked presumption against Henry the 4. a 1000. yeares after Christ this is a simple securitie for subiects to resist the sword which God hath autorized the church of Christ for a 1000. yeares obeyed to heare Thomas Aquin a late Summist in y◠midst of blindnes error affirme they may pretēd no better author than Hildebrād a furious seditious monster as his owne Cardinales companions report of him You were best bring some other proofe they must else be very large consciences that will be satisfied with such censures Phi. The famous professor of our time Francis Toledo writeth farther vpō the words of S. Thomas Nota saith he quod eadem est ratio de excommunicato quia cū primū quis est denunciat us excōmunicatus omnes subdits absoluuntur ab eius obedientia Note that albeit S. Thomas name only an apostata yet the reason is al one in the Princes case that is excommunicated For as soone as one is denounced or declared an excōmunicate al his subiects be discharged of their obediēce For though the crime of a Prince be notorious yet before declaration thereof made by the church the vassals are not assoiled frō obedience as Caietanus wel holdeth which declaration being made by the church they are not only discharged of their loialtie but are bound not to obey him any more except it be for feare of their liues or losse of their temporal goods as it was in England in the time of Henry the 8. Thus doth this notable schoolemā write neither do we know any Catholike diuine of any age to say the contrarie Theo. Cal you these satisfactiōs for reasonable cōsciences in purgatiō of your selues that you do not cōspire with Popes against Princes to bring men aliue at this day that be either hired or bewitched as you are to take part with Antichrist against God his truth think you their surly conclusions to be sufficiēt instructions for all mens consciences Shall Ambrose Austen others looke on Caietane Toledo such like sworne chaplaines to the Pope our prosessed enemies to bee iudges in this cause What else is this but aske my fellow whether I be a thiefe And yet Thomas Aquinas had this moderation that Princes should not loose their Dominion for heresie or any other crime but only for Apostasie which is a generall final renouncing of Christs name to become an heathē or a Turk Toledo with lesse learning more vnshamefastnes telleth vs vpon his credit Eadem est ratio de excommunicato The same reason holdeth in any Prince whom the Pope list to excommunicate for what cause soeuer Be not these dowtie demonstrations in so weighty questions Phi. We bring them not as our chiefe groundes in this cause but onely to shewe that others haue beene of the same iudgement with vs. Theo. You meane that your fellowes of late dayes haue beene as dutifull to their Princes as you are now to ours We aske not what companie but what authoritie you haue to resist and depose the powers which God hath appointed to bee serued and honoured Let Aquinas Caietane and Toledo go You may not displace them whom God hath exalted annointed and set to be obeyed without higher and better warrant than fiue thowsand Thomases tenne Thowsande Caietanes and twentie thowsande Toledoes can giue you Phi. Thowsandes we could bring you if that would content you namely The famous generall Councell of Laterane celebrated aboue 300. yeares since wherein there were Patriarkes and Archbishops 70. Bishops 412. and other Prelates 800. in all of the most chosen learned men of all Nations 1282. with the Embassadours of the Romane Emperour of the king of Ierusalem of England of Fraunce of Spaine and of Cypres as also of other Christian States than which there can bee no surer iudgement vpon earth which assemblie representing the whole christian world would neuer agree vpon any assertion traiterous These thē are the words of their most renoumed Decree If any Lord temporall required and admonished by the church neglect to purge his State from hereticall filth let him bee excommunicated by the Metropolitane and Conprouinciall Bishops But if he contemne to come to order within one yeares space let relation be made to the supreme Bishop
meane time learne that to beare the sworde is the Princes and not the Priests function and that the kings of Iudah which most vsed their temporall sword for the restoaring of trueth and purging of error wanne most fauour with God and honor with men as I shewed before in Dauid Iehosaphat Ezechias and Iosias Phi. To iudge of trueth is the Priests charge and that you referre to the Prince Theo. To know what must bee taught is the Pastours care to take heede what they beleeue or whom they follow God hath referred that to the hearers at their peril and more than that we giue no Prince Phi. The office and zeale of good Priests is notably recommended vnto vs in the deposition of the wicked Queene Athalia She to obtaine the Crowne after Ochasias killed all his children onely one which by a certaine good womans pietie was secretly withdrawen from the massacre saued and brought vppe within the Temple for seuen yeres space al which time the said Queene vsurped the kingdome till at length Ioida the high Priest by opportunitie called to him forces both of the Priestes and people proclaimed the right heire that was in his custodie annointed and crowned him king and caused immediatly the pretensed Queene notwithstanding shee cried Treason Treason as not onely iust possessors but wicked vsurpers vse to doe to bee slaine with her fautors at her owne Court gate Thus doe Priests deale and iudge for the innocent and lawfull Princes when tyme requireth much to their honour and agreeable to their holy calling Theo. Egernesse blindeth your vnderstanding when to prooue that a lawfull Prince may bee depriued of State and life which you seeke to defend you bring an example of a wicked woman vsurping the crowne and playing the tyrant that was suppressed and punished by the rightfull inheritour of the Scepter first proclaimed and Crowned by the consent of his whole Realme Phi. Ioida the high Priest commaunded her to bee slaine and not the king For he was a child of seuen yeeres age and had no such discretion Theo. Ioida had good warrant by the Lawes of God and man to do that hee did First hee saued the yong king aliue and hyding him from the furie of Athalia secretly nourced him in the house of God and in that respect might lawfully protect him and execute iustice for him Againe he was the Prince of his Tribe as wel as others were of their Tribes and therefore might take vpon him as much as any other of the Princes in the minoritie of the king to pacifie the Realme and punish the vsurper Thirdly his wife was the kinges aunt and himselfe the neerest allye that the king had and for that cause by the Lawe of nature and nations bound to see the Princes right age and innocencie defended Lastly that he did was by the common consent of al the Nobles and Captaines For the scripture sayth that before he ventered to proclaine king Ioash He caused the captaines the chiefe fathers of Israel to come vnto him into the house of the Lorde and made a couenant with them and tooke an othe of them in the house of the Lord and shewed them the kinges sonne So that Ioida had very good and sufficient authoritie without and besides his Priesthoode to doe that hee did which you dissemble and make a florish as if hee had done this only by vertue of his vocation which is most false Phi. No man can be ignorant howe stoutly Elias being sought to death by Achab and his Queene Iezabel that ouerthrewe holy Altars and murthered all the true religions that coulde bee founde in their lande tolde them to their face that not hee or other men of God whome they persecuted but they and their house were the disturbers of Israel And slewe in his zeale all the said Iezabels false Prophetes fostered at her Table euen foure hundred at one time and so set vppe holy Altars againe Howe hee handled the Idolatrous king Ochozias his Captaines and messengers wasting them and an hundred of their traine by fire from heauen till the third Captaine was forced to humble himselfe vppon his knees vnto him Howe hee had commission to annoint Hazael king of Syria Eliseus a Prophet for himselfe and Iehu king of Israel and so to put downe the sonne and whole house of Achab which thereby lost all the tytle and right to the kingdome for euer Theo. Elias zeale wee knowe and his stoue answere to Achab in saying I haue not troubled Israel but thou and thy fathers house in that yee haue forsaken the commandements of the Lord and thou hast followed Baalim Yet haue you but a colde sute of his stout speach For if Prophetes may reproue kings may they therefore depose them you bring your fiue wittes in question if you stand to this collection Phi. He slew in his zeale at one tyme foure hundred of Iezabels false Prophets fostered at her Table Theo. The famine which the land felt and the wonder which Elias did were the cause why king Achab deliuered the Prophetes of Baal into Elias handes to bee slaine by the people according to the Lawe of God Phi. Nay Elias slewe them Theo. Thinke you that Elias with his owne handes murdered so many Phi. The Scripture sayth Elias slue them interprete that howe you can Theo. I tooke Elias all this while for a Prophet and not for an executioner Phi. Though it were not his act to kill them it was his authoritie that they were killed Theo. His direction you might haue sayde but not his authoritie For Elias was a priuate man and no magistrate Phi. King Achab was farre enough from killing them had it not beene for Elias Theo. Elias might induce the king to doe it compell him hee coulde not Phi. Howe could Elias induce the King to doe that deede Theo. The famine was so great in Israel for lacke of raine that man and beast were ready to perish and raine they coulde haue none but at Elias woord as Elias had tolde the king before the drought beganne Meeting therefore with Achab and being chalenged by him as the author of this famine and troubler of Israel hee discharged himselfe and protessed before the King that GOD plagued the whole lande because hee and his fathers house had forsaken the commaundements of the Lorde followed other Gods And to iustifie his speach hee offered to prooue before all Israel on the daunger of his owne heade that the King and the lande were but seduced and abused by the Prophetes of Baal and that hee would proue by no woorse meanes than by miraculous fire from heauen which should shewe them whose sacrifice GOD accepted assuring them of raine abundant after their conuersion to the true GOD for which cause hee was at this tyme sent vnto them To this the king and the rest gaue their consents and when by the signe which Elias wrought
as in Heli who was both Iudge and high-Priest but commonly both the Persons were distinct and the offices And hence grew the custome from inferiour ecclesiastical Iudges to appeale to the High-Priest and from inferiour Princes secular Iudges to appeale to the King or Emperour You haue turned into ex and not only debarred the Prince of all his right but subiected him to the Priest In al doubts and differences betwixt Prince and people euen to the losse of his Crowne if the Priest say the word Phi. We follow the latine text as wee found it Theo. You might easily follow that which your selues had framed to your liking but the order of the Iewes common wealth and the circumstances of the text it selfe admitte no such meaning as you make of it For it is more than euident and testified not in a few places of the scriptures that al causes neither were nor might bee referred to the Priest Moses at the counsell of Iethro chose men of courage out of all Israel made them heads ouer the people Rulers ouer thousands Rulers ouer hundreds Rulers ouer fifties Rulers ouer tens And they iudged the people at all seasons but brought the hard causes vnto Moses for they iudged al small or easie matters themselues And though Moses by them was eased of all sauing hard and importing causes yet finding that burden too heauie for one man alone he complained vnto God and saide I am not able to beare all this people alone for it is too heauie for me To whom God made answere Gather me seuentie men of the Elders of Israel and bring them vnto the Tabernacle of the Congregation and I will come downe and talke with them there and take off the spirit that is vpon thee and put it vpon them and they shal beare the burden of the people with thee so thou shalt not beare it alone This distinction of inferiour and superiour iudges God after by his law established in that common wealth for euer In the next chapter before this which you alledge order is taken for inferiour iudge in euery Citie throughout the Land Iudges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates that is in al thy Cities which the Lord thy God giueth thee throughout thy Tribes and they shall iudge the people with righteous Iudgement In this Chapter and these very wordes which here you cite Superiour iudges are prescribed to whom harder causes and matters of greater difficultie were to be referred And so the wordes precisely sound If there fall out an hard matter for thee to iudge betwene blood and blood strife and strife sore and sore that be matters of iudgement in thy gates thou shalt rise and go vp to the place which the Lord thy God shall chose there in the land of promise And goe to the Priests of Leui and to the Iudge which shall be in those dayes and aske them and they shall shew thee the matter of iudgement The iudge of which he speaketh was the tēporal Magistrate for so the copulatiue leadeth vs and by that name were the chiefe Rulers of Gods People called before Kings were ordayned as the Booke of Iudges witnesseth neither was the iudge subiect to the Priest but had his charge besides and aboue the Priest which was to see the law of God exactly kept and obserued in all points of all men and to take vengeance on the breaker of any part thereof when as yet there were no kinges and after the creation of kinges both Priest and Iudge were subiect to the king This fourme of regiment by lower and higher Iudges and those both ecclesiasticall and cyuill king Iehosaphat renewed after he returned safe from the battell wherein Achab was slaine For hee set Iudges in the Lande in all the fensed Cities of Iudah Citie by Citie Also in Ierusalem hee appointed of the Leuites and of the Priestes and of the heades of the houses of Israel for the iudgement of the Lorde and for matters of doubt and they dwelt at Hierusalem And hee commaunded them saying thus shall yee doe in the feare of the Lorde in trueth and in a perfect heart euery cause that shall come before you from your brethren remayning in their Cities betweene blood and blood betweene Lawe and precept statutes and iudgements you shall instruct them therein and they shall not trespasse against the Lorde And beholde Amariah the Priest shall bee chiefe ouer you in euery matter of the Lordes and Zebadiah the captaine of the house of Iudah shall bee chiefe ouer you in euery matter of the kinges and the Leuites shal bee Rulers or ouerseers in your presence or vnder you Iehosaphat put that in execution which GOD prescribed by Moses for the debating and determining of greater and weightier causes among the children of Israel placing a Councell of Priestes and secular Magistrates at Hierusalem to consider of those doubtes of the Lawe and offences against GOD and the king which passed the reache of inferiour Iudges in euery Citie Marke then howe many errors you haue committed in alleaging this one place The gouernement which God setled in their common wealth to supply the want of kinges the defence might both ouer-rule kinges and depose kinges and yet when this was ordained there was no king created nor intended in Israel much lesse included or subiected to this consistorie Againe where obedience in these wordes is commaunded as well towardes the ciuil magistrate as towards the Priest you strike out the magistrate cleane and bring both Prince and people in subiection to the Priest in things and causes that be not spiritual but temporal For the deposing of Princes is a meere temporal act and you haue lesse to doe with Princes Crownes than with priuate mens inheritances which yet the priest may not dispose Thirdly the matters which belonged to them and the iudgements which they should giue were precisely limited to the lawe of God in other thinges they might not presume Nowe resisting and deposing of Princes bee things cleane besides the Lawe which Moses deliuered and therefore not determinable by those that sate to iudge according to that Law Fourthly what question can this bee betweene the Prince and the people whether the Magistrate shal bee deposed since GOD hath expressely commaunded the people to bee subiect to the sworde and not to resist against the which precept no earthly Court may deliberate much lesse determine to breake his lawe or licence the people to frustrate his heauenly wil. It is one thing to disburden the cōscience from obeying the euill that a Prince commaundeth which a Priest may doe and an other thing to take the Princes sworde out of his hand for abusing his authoritie which the Priest may not doe Lastly you force the whole text against the manifest experience of those times For it is euident that kinges commaunded and displaced high Priestes but that euer high Priest iudicially displaced
ministers of Christs spouse and kingdom no more than his Apostles were if so much and your commission is no larger than theirs if it be so large and yet the Apostles themselues had no power to depose Princes but submitted their bodies and liues to the powers which God had ordained and taught Christes most deare spouse his very bodie mystical to do the like and shee did so not offering any example of resisting and deposing Princes for a thousand yeres after shee first receiued at her husbands mouth a charge to honour them and in earthly things to obay them As for your Episcopall power ouer Princes if that be it you seeke for and not to take their kingdomes from them I tolde you before if they breake the Law of God you may reproue them if they heare you not you may leaue them in their sinnes and shut heauen against them if they fall to open heresie or wilfull impietie you may refuse to communicate with them in prayers and other diuine duties yea you must rather yeeld your liues with submission into their hands than deliuer them the word and sacraments otherwise than God hath appointed farther than this if you will go to the temporall punishing and finall displacing of them from their thrones and to the discharging of the people from the oth and obedience towards such Princes which is the right intent of your Romish censures as your owne woordes import though your cause were neuer so good as yours is starke naught you then turne religion into rebellion patience into violence wordes into weapons preaching into fighting fidelitie into periurie subiection into sedition and in steede of the seruantes of GOD which you might bee by enduring you become the Souldiers of Satan by resisting the powers which GOD hath ordayned Phi. Your threates were somewhat if the Church had not first deposed them Theo. Pull not out your owne eyes with your owne handes The Church hath no such Commission from Christ. Shee can not discharge smaller dueties as of children to their Parents and wiues to their husbandes much lesse greater as subiection othe and loyaltie to Princes Say if you dare that the Preceptes of subiection and submission vnto Princes in the sacred Scriptures doe not binde Bishoppes as well as others If they doe then marke what mockeries you make of the woorde of God Let euery soule and therefore euery Bishoppe bee subiect to the higher Powers that you will haue to stande vntill the Bishoppes depose them and take their power from them You must bee subiect the Bishoppes you meane as long as they list For if they like not their Prince by your Doctrine they may displace him Submit your selues to the king as excelling all others but you will bee sure to excell him and when you see your time to make him the meanest amongest the people Giue vnto Caesar the thinges that bee Caesars but if Caesar anger you you take from him goods Landes Scepter sworde life and all O worthie interpreters of Gods heauenly will A fewe such glozes will helpe Christ himselfe out of his kingdome such cunning you haue to defeate the commaundementes of the holy Ghost and to spoyle innocent and Christian Princes of their Crownes when you lyst to displace them Phi. They bee your foolish additions and not ours Theo. Auoyde the textes which wee bring without these or the like constructions and take the whole cause for your labour Well you may florish with the name of the Church where I say the Bishoppes and require some causes before Princes shoulde bee deposed which I referre to the discretion of the deposer but in effect your answeres must bee as I report them For what if the Pope offer open wrong to Princes of his owne Religion as hee did to Philippe the Faire King of Fraunce to Frederike the second Germane Emperour and to many others Who shall reuerse his definitiue sentence by your doctrine but himselfe that either for shame may not or for pride will not relent from his error Phi. Therefore wee referre the right of deposing Princes to the Church because wee woulde bee sure to haue it done by Lawe order and iudgement Theo. And that solemne proces of Lawe order and iudgement in your Church which you crake of when all is done is nothing els but the Popes pleasure for hee will bee tied neither to Councell nor Canon farther than standeth with his liking his Decrees be Canons and a reason of his fact may no man aske him by your Lawes and therefore Princes haue a warme sute to depend on such Lawes orders and iudgements As for the Church of Christ she neuer tooke any such thing vpon her neither did shee euer make any Decree that Prelats might depose Princes She endured as well heretikes and Apostataes as Pagans and persecutours many hundred yeeres to the glorious triall of her fayth and eternall reward of her patience Onely Gregorie the 7. Bishop of Rome more than a thousande yeres after Christ in the heighth of his pride and furie gaue the first onset to depose his Lord and master and others after him were easily led to followe his example but to this day neuer christian king nor Realme acknowledged or obeyed that power in the Pope which yet he doth wickedly chalenge as you do wilfully defend Phi. It may please the gentle readers to enforme their consciences partly by that is sayde before and specially by that which followeth Where they shall finde that streight vppon the first conuersion of kinges to the faith as the good and godly haue euer obeyed the Church and submitted themselues to ecclesiasticall censures and discipline so the euill and obstinate could neuer orderly discharge themselues from the same without euident note of iniustice tyrannie and irreligiositie and were either in fine brought to order penance or else to confusion both temporal and eternal Theo. Hee must be very gentle that will enforme his conscience with your bare surmises other enformations you giue none That which is said before is to small purpose that which followeth is to smaller Neuer good nor godly king obeyed the Popes sentence of deposition and besides the Pope neuer Church Councell nor Pastour offered any such wrong to Christian or heathen Princes What you call orderly discharging of themselues I knowe not the wisest and worthiest Princes that those dayes bred neither dissenting in fayth from the Bishop of Rome nor then doubting of his Pastoral headship ouer the Church such was the blindnes of their times yet openly despised and vtterly resisted his arrogant censures in depriuing Princes and howsoeuer by warres conspiracies and treasons hee tyred some of them God giuing Princes for the neglect of his trueth and number of their sinnes into the handes and power of Antichrist yet others bridled and kirbed your holy father himself in such sort that he had small ioy of his enterprise Of their eternall confusion
much lesse so great a Prince Truly I prepared to depart for so Montanus your messenger knoweth that vpon the receit of your letters if your grace vouchsafed but to write I might presently bee gone with my readines to obay preuent your rescript For I am not so madde as to thinke I may contradict such preceptes With what forehead then can they say I obaied not powers Neuer recken this man for a resistant that so many wayes protesteth and confirmeth his obedience to Princes learne you rather to follow his submission and draw him not against his own both deeds and wordes to be of your faction Phi. The people of Alexandria were twise or thrise in an vprore about him first vnder Constantius and after vnder Valens Theo. The people of Alexandria were very tumultuous and raised many horrible garboyles both in the Church and common wealth Socrates saith of them Populus Alexandrinus prae alijs populis seditionibus delectatur si quando occasionem seditionis fuerit nactus ad intolerabilia mala prorumpit nec sine sanguine sedatur The people of Alexandria delight in sedition more than other Cities and if at any time they catch any occasion to make a tumult they runne headlong to foule outrages and neuer end but with blood The selfe same report Euagrius giueth of them The people are soone stirred and easilie incited to a tumult most of all others they of Alexandria who by reason of their great number those obscure persons and of all sortes are insolent rash bold and in furie will venter on any thing Lamentable examples whereof you may reade in the stories of the church describing the horrible fights and slaughters that were between the Iewes Gentiles and Christians of that Citie as wel against the trueth as with it And therefore in these populous and tumultuous Cities if you did shew some insurrections of the people for their pastors it would doe you no great good Men haue raised tumults in al ages and that doth iustifie rebellion in you no more than Cains sword dipt in his brothers bloud at the first beginning of the world and neuer since drie doth warrant theeues to take mens liues by the high waies side yea rather lesse for they kill to supplie their needes you to reuenge your grifes they vnhorse priuate men you vnthrowe Princes they rifle howses you spoile kingdomes they fly vpon the fact you stand to the defence of it before the whole world Farre from this affection were S. Basil and S. Ambrose as euen now wee saw and Athanasius as farre if you dare trust him on his oth if not you shall shift him neerer by his acts When he saw the people of his Church grudge at the Emperours precept to remoue him from his seat and readie to take weapon in hand hee departed the citie Under Valens the people of that citie likewise resisted and would not suffer any violence to be offered Athanasius by the Captaines vntill the Emperours pleasure were precisely knowen touching Athanasius In so much that the multitude flocking together and a great hurlie burlie rising in the Citie a sedition was feared When the people some daies after was appeased Athanasius by night closely conueigheth himselfe out of the Citie Others saie that foreseeing the rashnes of the multitude and fearing least he should seeme to be the author of that euill which might ensue he hid him selfe all that time in his fathers tumbe Thus when hee might haue beene defended by the people hee would not and because they suffered him not to depart from them by day hee frale from them by night and left his Bishopricke to be disposed by the prince The like did Chrysostome in his troubles For when the people knew of his deposition they brake out into an vprore and would not suffer those that had it in charge from the Emperour to carrie him into banishment Chrysostom fearing least any other crime should bee fastned on him either that he did not obay the Emperour or that he stirred the people to sedition the third day after his depriuation priuilie leaueth his Church and yeeldeth himselfe to be caried into exile So that by S. Chrysostomes iudgement it is first a fault in a Bishop not to obay the Prince next it is an other fault to stirre the people to sedition be the cause neuer so good as Chrysostomes was not badde Phi. Likewise against Valens the Arrian Emperour Petrus successour to Athanasius and brother to S. Basil did seeke to the Pope of Rome for succour as al other afflicted Bishoppes and Catholikes euer did Theo. The Bishop of Rome in those daies was neither so mightie that he could nor wicked that he would assist subiects with armes against their Soueraignes Peter Bishop of Alexandria brought letters from Damasus Bishop of Rome allowing his election and Confirming the same the people vpon that spying their time displaced Lucius an Arrian and receiued Peter their right Bishoppe Phi. And what was this but resistance to the Prince Theo. Resist they might and did but not with armes Phi. Which way then Theo. By refusing his communion disobeying his iurisdiction and withdrawing their duties from him yeelding the same to Peter as to their lawful and true Bishop Phi. Socrates sayth the people taking courage expelled Lucius and set Peter in his place Theo. They might driue him away and make him forsake the Citie though not with armes But whatsoeuer the people did against Lucius in their heate hauing as I noted before vnto you out of the same writer a very sharp and seditious humour and being miserably handled by Lucius as scourged with whippes their flesh torne with hookes and diuersly tormented with fire vnto death the letters of Damasus incited them to no such thing but onely approued the election of Peter Phi. But Peter it shoulde seeme allowed the people in their enterprise for by their tumult he recouered his Bishopricke Theo. You must not imagine rebellions where none are written The people draue Lucius from the See being an intruder an heretike and a murderer other tumult the Storie doth not mention Phi. The Prince had placed Lucius there Theo. The election of Bishops in these dayes belonged to the people and not to the Prince and though Valens by plaine force placed him there yet might the people lawfully reiect him as no Bishoppe and cleaue to Peter their right Pastor Phi. Might they reiect him with armes Theo. I said not so Phi. But so they did Theo. That must you proue we find no such thing in the Storie neither of Socrates nor Sozomene Phi. Socrates sayth they expelled him Theo. But not with armes Phi. Do you thinke hee would yeeld without force Theo. Do you thinke any great force needed for a whole Citie to expell one man But why come you with thoughts when you should bring vs proofes That hee was expelled wee graunt but whether
and peace by his wisedome to protest and keepe in safetie their wiues children parentes goodes and liues I will not examine the Popes diuinitie in that hee sayth Princes haue their powers of the people which the Scripture sayeth they haue of God this is plaine hee claimeth no power to depose Princes but alleadgeth an example that the people may chaunge their king when hee is not able for frensie or follie to do the duetie of a king And by that concludeth it lawfull for the Germanes to refuse that simple idiote which had the Scepter by succession and elect an other Phi. Though you holde the Pope may not yet you confesse the people may depose their Prince Theo. I tell you not what I thinke but what Pope Zacharie sayde to the Germanes Phila. Doe you like or dislike that hee sayde Theo. I shoulde haue asked you that question but because you preuent mee you shall heare what I saie Zâ—charie toucheth not the causes for which Princes may be deposed but the persons by whom it must bee doone if it bee needefull to doe it and that is by their owne Realmes and not by tribunalles abroade as you suppose Phi. Then it may bee doone Theo. When it shoulde bee doone the whole Realme must doe it and not the Pope Phi. But neither hee nor they can doe it except you first assent that it may be doone There can bee no deposers if Princes bee not deposeable Theo. There may fall extremities when Princes are not able to guide themselues much lesse their Realmes Phi. What be those Theo. I named them before frensie follie As if the right heire to any Crowne be a naturall foole or he that is inuested in the Crowne waxe mad and run besides him selfe In either of these two cases any Realme by publike consent and aduise may choose an other Phi. What vnlikely cases you bring vs which neuer yet fell out in proofe Theo. Yeas that they haue Childerike of whom we spake euen now was deposed by the Germanes for a foole And Charles the 3. the last Emperour of Pipines line Gods iustice requiting his children with the verie same measure that he met before vnto his master was deposed by the same people for * a bedlem As also when Iustinus the yonger was * distract of his wits Tiberius was placed in the Empire Philand You make Childerike a foole because you woulde auoide the Popes power to depriue Princes Theophil If you made him not a foole when you putte him from his right vnder that pretence I doe him no wrong Your Stories blaze him for a frantike foole Blondus and Nauclerus saie they did it Pensantes Regis amentiam considering the madnes of the king Sabellicus addeth thereunto * Regis deliria ineptias the follie and frensie of the king Gaguinus saith he was * homo vecors bellua a verie sotte and a beast and for that cause his title in your Stories is Childericus stupidus Childerike the foole whether hee were or no God knoweth but this wee see they handled him like a foole and the Pope had information against him that hee was Deneger monstrum a monster and not a man and therefore were the causes which they alleadged for this deposition true or no wee greatly care not They pretended a cause sufficient if it were true and the Pope confessed it lawefull for the whole Realme to displace such a Prince as was both vn-fitte and vn-able to beare the sworde Philand But Stephen absolued Pipine from the othe of alleageaunce which hee had giuen vnto Childerike Theoph. High time to absolue Pipine from his othe three yeares after Childerike was deposed and hee placed in the kingdome Regino whence that fable first came of Stephens sicknesse at Paris and his recouerie by a vision of Sainct Denis saieth not a worde of any such absolution but onely that Stephen confirmed Pipine and his two sonnes as lawfull kinges of France and adiured the Nobles not to choose them a king of any other line so long as Pipines race indured The rest is added by Monks and Friers in fauor of the Pope as infinite other thinges are in the accidentes of euerie Age. Howbeit absoluing from others if they be lawfull and good is a greater matter than we yet beleeue your holy father may deale with The wauering of your Stories in the cause of Childerikes deposition for sometimes they vrge a defect in Childerike sometimes they pleade a right in Pipine without the king and aboue the king as hauing the regiment of that Realme and all publike affaires committed to him and his for the space of fourscore yeares by way of inheritaunce before hee sought the crowne this wauering in the cause and curious seeking for absolutions and confirmations maketh many men suspect that your pretences against Childerike were not all true But whether Pipine had better interest to the Crowne of Fraunce than Childerike by reason the Mareschal of the Palace was become the kinges master in so much that the king coulde not commaunde his owne diet but at the Marshals pleasure and was gouerned and ouerruled in al things by him as a boy by his tutor which is the constant report of all your witers touching the state of the Germane kinges when Pipine aspired to the crowne or whether Childerike were an idiote and the last of his house as for the better strength of Pipines title your stories auouch I will be no iudge Childerik I say was deposed by the Nobles and commons of his nation and the Pope being consulted whether it were lawfull for them so to doe made answere they might but added no word of his diuine power to dispose kingdoms to his liking And this for Childerik may suffice For Philippicus the answere is easier Hee was a rebell and slue his Master in the fielde and therefore without any farther cause the Romanes might refuse both his name his reigne To this vsurpation when hee added as they thought impietie it was no maruel to see them so earnest against him But in this as in many other things your later Stories stray from the former The elder sort of Historiographers as Beda Regino Marianus Frisingensis Vrspergensis say The people of Rome decreed that neither his name nor letters nor coyne shoulde be receiued the later as Blondus Sabellicus and Nauclerus haue chaunged their tune and say The Bishop of Rome did it at the clamor and petition of the people Sigebert as indifferent betweene them saith the Bishop and the people ioyntly did it So handsomly you can hammer thinges when they come to your fingering and such credit your Stories deserue when the case concerneth your holy Fathers authoritie These bee all the examples you doe or can bring for the space of a thowsand yeares after Christ where Princes were depriued of their crownes by the Bishop of Rome and these how litle they make for your purpose
I leaue to the iudgement of the christian Reader Your catalogue of the Germane Emperours that insueth As of Frederike the first Frederike the second Otho the fift Lewes the thirde Lewes the fourth and Henrie the thirde or as some call him the fourth maketh shew to the simple but doth you no good The eldest of these that were offered depriuation by the Pope is Henrie the fourth whom Gregorie the seuenth a thowsand threescore and six yeares after Christ prouoked with that iniurie but to his owne vtter ouerthrow You recken Lewes the thirde and Lewes the fourth for Princes depriued of their Empires by the Bishoppe of Rome but reason were you did first tell vs whom you meane and how you proue it Marianus Scotus and they that follow him make Lewes the third to be Lodouicus Balbus to whom Pope Iohn fled annointed him king of the Romanes when the Nobles of Rome inclined rather to Charles the thirde and gaue him possession of the citie who was after annointed by Pope Iohn at his returne Lodouike the thirde liuing skant two yeares after his coronation Martinus Polonus numbreth him for Lewes the third that was next after Arnulphus but whether it were Lodouike the sonne of Arnulphus or an other of that name the sonne of Boso he doth not determine onely he saith Berengarius caught him at Verona and recouered the Empire which Blondus and Marianus report of Lodouike the sonne of Boso and not of Lodouike the sonne of Arnulphus as Platina doth In this vncertaintie of your Stories you might haue done wel to haue distinguished the person pointed out your author you now driue vs to suspect that you go about to haue them deposed that were neuer crowned Of Lodouike the sonne of Arnulphus Martinus saith Hee succeeded his father sed ad coronam Imperij non peruenit but hee neuer was crowned Emperour And Platina confesseth the same In the place of Arnulphus we read that Lodouike was made Emperour quem tamen nusquam habuisse imperij Coronam accepimus of whom we do not finde that euer hee had the Crowne of the Empire If hee neuer receiued the Crowne how could hee bee deposed from the Crowne Phi. Perhappes the Pope kept him from it Theo. Perhappes you can not tell but thinke you that Princes will loose their Crownes for your perhappes Phi. He neuer had it Theo. But had he any wrong to bee kept from it Phi. Howe thinke you of that Theo. Your proofes bee verie mightie that must depende on my thoughtes Phi. Wee brought in these instances as it were by the way to let you see what stoare of examples wee had Theo. Then take them out of the way for they do but hinder your cause When Charles the thirde otherwise called Carolus Crassus grewe both sicke and lunatike the Nobles of Germanie cleane forsooke him and choose Arnulphus which as some say was the sonne of Charlemaine but as Blondus affirmeth was obscurissimo natus loco a man very basely borne and not of Charles line by reason whereof the kingdomes which before were subiect to Charles now as destitute of a right heire beganne to fall in sunder on euerie side to choose kinges of themselues Then Fraunce tooke Charles the childe cognamed Simple and when his simplicitie displeased them they set Otho the sonne of Robert Duke of Saxonie in his place At the same time the people of Italy meaning to haue a king of their own could not agree on the matter but chose some Berengarius and others Guido and so had two kinges in Italy both calling and bearing them-selues as Emperours Besides these defections Arnulphus had long and sharpe warres with Rodolph that proclaimed him-selfe king of Prouince and with the Nortmanes that ranged in many partes of Fraunce and Germanie So that the Pope did not depose Lewes the thirde as you would insinuate but Italie seeing the line of Charles to bee expired thought to make an Emperour of their owne bowels and to keepe off straungers that before had the rule ouer them and so they did for threescore yeares till barbarous inuasions and domesticall seditions and disorders made them glad to send to Otho the great and to receiue him for their Emperor and to yeelde to a forme of electing to the Empire by certaine Bishops and Princes of Germanie which hath indured vntil this present This your own Stories abundantly confirme saue that some write of Arnulphus that he marched with his armie through the middest of Italy and tooke Rome and caused him-selfe to bee crowned Emperour as Regino sayth who then liued by Formosus the Bishoppe of Rome which Blondus doth skant beleeue Howsoeuer that were they all agree that Berengarius and Guido were chosen kinges of Italie when Arnulphus was first aduaunced to Charles his place Blondus saieth Arnulpho apud Francos in Imperatorem creato Romani caeteri Itali nullum ab imperatore nouo dissidijs Regni Franciae implicito auxilium aduersus rebelles Longobardos affuturum intelligentes Berengarium Foronâ—liensem Ducem Roma oriundum crearunt Imperatorem Arnulphus being chosen Emperour by the Germanes the Romanes and Italians perceiuing they might looke for no helpe against the rebellious Lombards from that new Emperor hauing his hands ful of the dissentioÌ„s of his own kingdom created Berengarius the duke of Frioli a Romane their emperor Neither yet did they so wel agree in that electioÌ„ but that other chose Guido the Duke of Spoletum to be king of Italie Otho Frisingensis maketh the same report Charles the next yeare after hee was deposed died From that time to Otho wee finde the regiment at Rome verie confused For after the death of Charles which raigned sixe yeares and ledde a priuate life the seuenth yeare the Empire was rent in many partes euery Prouince desirous to haue a seuerall king onely Arnolfus had the greatest share Therefore the Italians make themselues two kinges Berengarius Duke of Friault and Guido Duke of Spoletum Of the which Berengarius chased out of his couÌ„try by Guido â—led for succour to Arnolfus You can not proue hence that Arnulphus or Lewes his sonne were depriued by the Pope but only that the Romanes made an other defection from the Empire who after they had once tasted the sweetnesse that came by cutting the empire in peeces for where before they were suppliaÌ„ts subiects now by the larges of Pipine they were Lords of halfe Italie by their willes could neuer haue rested And though the Germanes and Italians differ in their reckonings the Germanes accounting Berengarius and those that succeeded him vntil Otho the great for vsurpers and contrary-wise the Italians accepting them for their naturall and true Emperours Yet that is no cause for you to auouch that the Pope deposed any of them For put the case either way that the Germanes were lawfully excluded as hauing no right or wrongfully debarred of their
impugned at one tyme. Phi. Hee impugned Concubinaries and Symonists Theo. So your Cloysterers called such as were maried and preferred by the Prince and for that cause they tooke stitch with the Pope against the Prince and highly commended Hildebrand as the first begynner of ecclesiasticall puritie and libertie But in deede it was but a quarrell sought out by the Pope vnder a faire pretence to tread downe Princes and exalt himselfe He could beare no such sway as he woulde in the Church so long as the Bishops did depend on the Prince and not on the Pope For by their helpe the Prince often tymes not only crossed but depriued the Pope if hee waxed vnruly or ouer lustie This was it that Hildebrande could not digest Lighting therefore on a Prince that was young and somewhat lasciuious and perceiuing the Nobles of his Realme to dislike and disdaine one an other and seeing the Normanes in Italie able to withstande the Emperours force and the Saxons in Germanie willing to cast off the Yoke as they thought of bondage and getting into such fauour with Mathilda a great mightie Ladie of Italie that shee should not bee out of his sight but as a very friend of Gregories sayth Pontificis Lateri comes indiuidua adhaerebat eumque miro colebat affectu shee cleaued to the Popes side as his continuall companion and loued him exceedingly Hildebrande hauing these oportunities gaue the aduenture both to pull all spirituall liuings out of the Princes gift that the Clergie might depend on him and not on their Prince and to shewe him-selfe the censurer and deposer of Kinges and Emperours if they withstoode him And for that cause hee first decreed it to bee Symonie to take any spirituall lyuing at a lay mans handes and in the same Synode did excommunicate as well the giuers as the takers were they Dukes Princes or Kinges which hee knewe the Emperour neither coulde nor woulde endure Not long after hee receiued diuers and sundrie suggestions against the King from the Saxons who sought by armes what they coulde to preuaile against the Prince and when that succeeded not fell to slaundering and accusing their king for answere whereto the Pope summoned the King to appeare at Rome and prefixed him a day to cleare him-selfe of those crimes And when the king neither would loose his right in bestowing his Bishoprickes and Benefices as he sawe cause and as his progenitours before him had doone and refused to come in Person to answere the complaints of rebels against him but sent his Agents to refell their obiections the Pope discouering the malice and pride which till that tyme hee concealed tooke the Princes messengers and cast them in Prison and caused them to bee caried about the Citie as gazing stockes and in his Synode depriued the Emperour both of the communion of the faythfull and of his Crowne and kingdome also and to his dying day would not bee remoued from his purpose Philand These bee your vaine collections which wee regarde not Theo. I looke not you shoulde regarde mine but if your owne writers which haue laboured in this matter finde the report which I make to bee true you may not so lightly neglect them Auentinus a man addicted to your religion not to ours exactly and vprightly weighing the partes and proofes of this cause obserueth the same that I doe and a great deale more Philand Auentinus was too fauourable to the Germanes his Countriemen Theop. Any writer may bee touched in that sort with fauour or affection If you reiect men of the same profession with you because they differ in iudgement from you much more is it lawfull for vs in this contention betweene the Prince and the Pope to refuse such as were altogether inclined and deuoted to the See of Rome If you trust not Auentine because hee was a Germane why should we trust those Monkes and Bishoppes that were ioyned in faction with Hildebrand against the king Philand Will you trust none but your seluee Theoph. You doe not so much as trust your selues wee alleage none but your owne men in this case and you trust them not Philand Wee giue you some cause why wee trust them not Theoph. None but this that you like them not your other exceptions bee very friuolous If some were Germanes and fauoured the Prince others were Italians and flattered the Pope You trust not the one nor wee the other let therefore the sticklers of both sides alone and examine the doers them-selues I hope you will beleeue Gregories woordes and not distrust him as you doe the rest Philand He wil not belie him-selfe Theo. Then touching the causes of Henries excommunication the Pope himselfe maketh this report to the Princes of Germanie Pro hijs illum causis primum videlicet quod ab eorum communione qui pro sacrilegio reatu simoniaca haeresis excommunicati sunt se abstiuere noluit deinde quod pro criminosis actibus paenitentiam non dico suscipere sed nec promittere voluit Synodali iudicio eum excommunicauimus For these causes to witte first for that he would not forbeare their companie which were excommunicated for the sacrilegious and hereticall guylt of Symonie next for that hee was so farre from taking any penance at our handes for his criminall actes that he would promise none we by a Synodal sentence did excommunicate him Here bee the two causes which the Pope pretended for his excommunicatiō and deposition of the prince partaking with Symonists and refusall of iudgement penance at his hands Philand Were not Symonie and obstinacie two great crimes Theoph. Your holy father did call that Symonie which was none Philand The Prince did sell Bishoprickes and Benefices Theoph. So your Monkes affirme but they lie the more The Pope him-selfe you see doeth not charge him with selling Bishoprickes or benefices but with retaining their societie that did Lambertus that lyued in that tyme and wholy fauoured Gregorie confesseth that by many examples the Prince shewed howe much hee detested the corruption and ambition of Prelates and Abbates seeking preferment by money and flatterie When the Abbay of Fulde was voide and the King with his Nobles conferring about the choice of a newe the Abbates and Monkes sayth Lambertus as it had beene at a solemne game began to offer some golden mountains other great booties out of the lands of the Abbay and some more seruices to the common-wealth than accustomed and in offering they kept neither meane nor modestie horum impudentiam rex vehementissimé vt dignum erat detestatus the king most vehemently detesting their impudencie as it became him when hee was importuned with their prayers and offers on the suddaine ledde with a diuine spirite as men thought called one Ruzelin a Monke that stoode before him which came to the court about the busines of his house at the commaundement of the Abbate and neuer dreampt of any
Rege inconsulto Romanae ecclesiae Pontificem ordinassent ipsumque si non idoneè satisfaceret illicité accepta dignitate abdicare se praeciperet Why they had created a Bishoppe of Rome without the kinges consent against the auncient vse of their fathers and to commaund him that was chosen if hee made not due satisfaction to forbeare the dignitie which hee had vnlawfully taken To this Hildebrand answered that hee was chosen of the Romanes and violently constrained to take the place and yet by no meanes coulde be brought to permit himselfe to bee ordered Bishoppe of Rome vntill hee certainely knewe that the king and the Nobles of Germanie had consented to his election and for that cause hee had hitherto differred his consecration and surely woulde differ it vntill hee were aduertised of the Kinges pleasure by some trusty messenger The like Custome and priuilege the Prince had to consent to the elections of all other Bishoppes within his Empire before they coulde bee ordered as your owne Lawe confesseth and hee that withstoode it was accursed by the Popes owne mouth long afore Hildebrande was borne Adrian the Pope with a whole Synode of an hundreth fiftie-three Bishoppes yeelded vnto Charles the great right and power to choose the Bishoppe of Rome and to dispose the See Apostolike Also Adrian defined that the Archbishoppes and Bishoppes of euery Prouince shoulde receiue inuestiture of Charles so that vnlesse a Bishoppe were first liked and inuested by the King hee might not bee consecrated by any man And whosoeuer did against this Decree hee accursed In an other â—â—â—ncell helde at Rome Leo the eighth of that name after the example of Adrian confirmeth this custome to Otho the first King of the Germanes and Emperour of the Romanes I Leo with the whole Clergie and people of Rome doe settle confirme and establish and by our Apostolike authoritie we graunt and giue vnto our Lord Otho the first and his successours power for euer to appoint a Bishoppe of this chiefe Apostolique See and likewise Archbishoppes and Bishoppes that they shall receiue inuestiture of him in so much that no man of what dignitie or profession soeuer hee bee shall haue power to choose a Bishoppe of this chiefe Apostolike Seate or to consecrate any other Bishoppe without consent of the Emperour If therefore a Bishop bee chosen by the Clergie and people let him not bee consecrated vnlesse he be first allowed and inuested by the foresaid king And if any man attempt any thing against this our Apostolike sentence wee determine him to stand excommunicate These grauntes and confirmations your owne Stories doe witnesse though Blondus seeme to doubt of them as vnlikely Sigebert sayth From Charles the great for the space of three hundreth yeeres and aboue during the liues of threeskore and three Bishoppes of Rome they that were Emperours of Rome gaue Bishoprickes and Abbayes by the deliuerie of a ring and a staffe that then was counted lawful Now in the dayes of Hildebrand against the Decrees of their fathers the Popes in their Synodes haue determined that no Bishoprike nor ecclesiastical inuestiture can or should be giuen by a lay man with a staffe and a ring and they which so receiued Bishoprikes or other ecclesiasticall preferments were excommunicated Thus Hildebrand pretended to follow the steppes of his fathers when hee forsooke them and concluded that to bee Symonie which was none and made it a cause of depriuation for the Prince to hold that right which two Bishops of Rome with their Synodes expresly confirmed to Charles and Otho and sixtie three Bishops had suffered and approued in the Germane Emperours and himselfe had protested to the Princes Legates at his first entrance to the Bishoprike If this were not a mere quarell vniustlie sought by the Pope vpon the Prince against all order and equitie your nearest frindes shall be my iudges The seconde cause of Hildebrandes presumption against the Prince is like the first For what Lawe diuine or humane forced the Prince to goe to Rome at the Popes call Howe proue you that for sinne committed against God the Pope may enioyne what penance hee list And the Prince must abay Or that if the Prince refuse the Popes newe founde and needlesse penances hee must bee deposed Philand Woulde you not that Princes shoulde repent their wicked liues Theoph. Yeas and amende them with all Christian care and speede But what power hath the Pope by Gods Lawe to pardon the sinnes of Princes more than an other Bishoppe hath Or why shoulde Princes repenting not bee forgiuen without perfourming such penance as the Bishoppe of Rome list to deuise for them Had Gregorie delt with Henry the fourth to correct those thinges which were amisse and to returne to GOD with earnest and heartie repentaunce wee woulde not haue misliked that fatherly monition both to giue eare to the sinister and slaunderous informations of subiectes and Rebelles against their Prince to cite him in person to appeare at Rome that was his Soueraigne Lord and master to repell his messengers with reproche and infamie that came to cleare him to depriue him of his kingdome for not consenting to such penaunces as the Pope in pride and rage should impose to make him stand three daies in the colde frost barefooted before hee could bee admitted to presence and after his submission and absolution giuen by the Pope him selfe to set vppe his seruantes and sonnes to take his Crowne from him If this bee Iustice the dyuell himselfe may suffer for Iustice as wel as Pope Hildebrand Phi. Are Princes too good to do penance for their sinnes Theoph. Prooue first that such penances as you list to enioyne are necessarie partes of our conuersion vnto GOD and then wee will say Princes may be blamed for refusing them otherwise you wickedly abuse the keyes in that you make them serue your lustes to compasse your purposes and to bee reuenged of your enemies vnder colour of repenting and reconciling vnto God Phi. Must not the Church also bee satisfied Theo. If Popes vnder the name of the Church play the Tyrants and content not them-selues with those signes of inwarde sorrowe which God accepteth they bee nowe not forgiuers of sinnes nor watchmen ouer soules but cunning huntsmen after gâ—â—â—e and peruerters of trueth with their prophane policie which turne the keâ—â—s and Cannons of Christes Church to enrich them-selues and to get a Lordly Dominion ouer all persons and places by restraining the Sacraments and enioyning penaunces such as they see make most for their aduantage And this hath beene the manner of all your late Popes vpon priuate and earthly displeasures and quarrels to curse and banne both Prince and people till amendes were made them euen in their owne liking as if Christ had ordayned the Sacramentes to bee not seales of his grace and helpes of our fayth but baites to catch kingdomes and roddes to reuenge such Princes as will
were despised when they trauelled for peace Phi. But say no more than you wil proue Theo. Your owne friends shal heare me recorde that I doe not faine The griefe that Adrian the fourth conceiued againâ—â— Frederike the first the occasious therof though I might report out of Radeuicus that thâ—â— liued yet had I rather take them out of Adrians owne words in his epistle to Frederik which are these By the word of truth we are taught that euery one which exalteth himself shal be brought low Wherfore we maruel not a litle at your discretion that you giue not S. Peter the holy Church of Rome that reuerence which you ought For in your letters directed vnto vs you set your name before ours which is a note of presumption I will not say arrogancie What shal I speak of the fidelitie which you promised confirmed with an oth to S. Peter to vs in what sort you perform it when as you require homage exact fealty of them which be gods the sons of the most high euery one of them I meane the Bishops closing their haÌ„ds within yours wheÌ„ you receiue it setting your self against vs you shut not only the churches but the cities of your kingdom against the Cardinals that came froÌ„ our side Repent therefore repent we aduise you lest whiles you couet the thinges which you should not you loose that which you haue For the better discerning of the Popes ambitious enuious spirit you shall hear with what mildnes lenitie the prince made his answere Whatsoeuer regality your PopedoÌ„ hath you gat it by the gift of princes WhereupoÌ„ when we write to the Bishop of Rome by right by ancient vse we set our name first Looke your records if before you did not marke this which we say there you shall find it Of them whom you call gods I winne by adoption since they hold part of our regalities why should we not exact both homage and an oth of fealtie whereas our master yours holding nothing of any earthly king but bestowing all good things on all men paied tribute to Caesar for himselfe for Peter gaue you an example so to do saying Learne of me for I am meeke and humble in hart Let therefore your Bishops either restore vs our temporalities or if they finde them so profitable that they will not let them giue to God that which is Gods and to Cesar that which is Cesars due To your Cardinals our churches are shut our cities not open because we see them to be no Preachers but spoilers no makers of peace but snatchers of mony no reformers of meÌ„ but insatiable scrapers of gold WheÌ„ we shal see them to be such as the church needeth that is bringing peace lightning countries assisting the humble in equity we our selues wil not fail to appoint for them necessary prouisioÌ„ maintenaÌ„ce And to tel you truth you giue vs cause to suspect your humility meekenes which is the nource of al vertues when you quarel with temporall persons about these matters which make nothing to religioÌ„ We caÌ„ not choose but send you this answere when we see the detestable beast of pride to haue crept vnto Peters seate This reply though grouÌ„ded on nothing but manifest reason trueth did so sting the Pope his Cardinals that they ioyned in a generall conspiracy with WilliaÌ„ king of Scicily verie neere all the cities of Italy to crosse the Emperour to the vtmost of their powers and when the Pope died to choose none but one of the same faction that should continually pursue the Prince both with sedition and excommunication till they gate the vpper hande of him Iohannis Cremonensis a writer of that time saieth In this conspiracie the greater part of the Cardinals William king of Scicilie and almost all the cities of Italie bounde them-selues with many Barons and other greater men and a mighty masse of monie was giuen to Pope Adrian that hee shoulde excommunicate the Emperour And farther hee saieth hee learned of credible men of Millan and Brixia that were parties in this action that the conspiracie with Pope Adrian was so fastned with othes that none of them might leaue the rest or seeke the Emperours fauour without the consent of all and if the Pope departed this life they should choose a Cardinall of the same confederacie The reward which Adrian receiued at Gods hand as that writer sayth was this that A few daies after he had denounced his excommunication against the Emperor at Anagnia as he walked abroad to refresh himself came to a spring to tast of the water a flie by report entred his mouth and stucke so fast to his throate that by no helpe of Physitions it could be remoued til hee gaue vp the ghost Phi. Nauclerus you knowe doubteth of this storie because the Italian writers make no mention of it Theo. That is no reason to disproue the writer You know what Cuspinian a man of your owne side saith of your Italian stories in the liues of both the Frederikes Merula an Italian not knowing the thinges which Emperour Frederike did but as following Blondus or Platina doth fouly erre many times And againe The Italians as Blondus Platina both of one age complaine of the want of stories They disdayned to reade the chronicles of the Germanes the which because they sauored not of the Romane eloquence they reiected and missing in many pointes they affirm very often lies for truth Some of them offended with the whole Nation of Germanie call all the Germane Princes that were Emperors barbarians And to flatter their Popes they charge the Germane Princes with many moe vices than they had Want of other writers before them hatred of the Germans whose Princes often wasted Italie with fire and sword and a naturall desire to magnifie the Pope made the Italians disdaine to seeke the truth or to dissemble it when they saw it Phi. Did not the Germanes thinke you beare affection towardes their Princes and spite the Pope for accursing and impugning their Emperours Theo. I alleadge none but Priests Monks Abbats that were in the Popes danger and not in the Princes and such as otherwise did honour the Pope depend vppon his See saue when he offered so open wrong and violence that no Prince coulde indure it But we wade further than we neede Nauclerus doubteth whether AdriaÌ„ were choked with a flie but of the conspiracie which is the thing that I purposed neither hee nor you can doubt It was complained of by the Cardinals that refused their societie it was confessed by the citizens of Millan it was proued in the Councell of Pauia it was reported by letters both from the Prince from the * Bishop of Babenberge to Eberhard the Archbishop of Saltzburge it was verified by the sequele I mean by the wilful resistaÌ„ces which the coÌ„federat
Who rightly considering these attempts will not lament them detest them as the foresignes prognosticatioÌ„s of the ruine of the church And when the composition was made between the Emperor the Suldane that Hierusalem with certaine places neere bordering should be restored to the christians truce remaine for ten yeares the Emperor by letters aduertised the Pope the rest of christendom of this ioyfull newes The Pope cast away the letters would not receiue them with his fautors as men affirmed made a rumor to be spred in Apulia that the emperor was dead Wherupon the cities that yet stood for the emperour inclined to render themselues into the popes hands to kil the Almanes that returned from the holy land or were commorant in Apulia a most barbarous and wicked purpose And lest there should want any thing to the vttermost of al wickednes when Frederik after his arriuing in the holy land sent messengers to Rome to require absolution reconciliation because he had now perfourmed his promise the Pope repelled his petition inioyned the soldiers in Asia to withdraw their help froÌ„ Frederik as froÌ„ a publike enimie It was not enough to fil the Princes hands with ciuill warres when he should prepare against the Turk to stop and spoile his souldiers that should accompanie him to inuade his lande sollicite his townes in his absence your holy father must set the Christians when they should fight against the Turke togither by the eares wil them not only to forsake but also to impugne their Emperor What could the diuel himselfe haue done more if he had bin couched in the Popes chaire than Gregorie did Phi. These things Gregorie himselfe denied the Italians that since haue written reiect them as false Theo. So had they need For if they should confesse them they must yeeld the Pope in so doing to be rather the foreman of Satan than the Uicar of Christ. And therefore your Italian Stories presuming all that the Pope saide in defence of himselfe to bee true and all that hee claymed from the Empire to bee his raile on Frederike in great choler as on a wicked and faithlesse Prince and acquite the Pope as doing his dutie in all these counterplots But Italian wittes are too well knowen to be trusted when they are offended and in Blondus a man may soone perceiue an intemperate heate against those Princes that withstoode the Pope Phi. You dislike our stories and we dislike yours Theo. May you dislike your owne and such as then liued and honoured the See of Rome hauing no iust exception against them but only that they could not apparel the Popes pride with some smoth deuises as the Italians do Phi. Not long since you praised Blondus haue you now cast him out of conceite Theo. I did commend Blondus for his diligence where affection did not interpeale him But in this case drawing all thinges to his appetite the more diligeÌ„t the more daÌ„gerous He not only taketh euery word that Gregory spake for a Gospel but addeth of his own head such things as Gregory neuer obiected to Frederike that with no small spite For where Frederik complained to the Princes of Almanie how iniuriouslie and deceitfully the Pope had dealt with him amongest other thinges whiles hee was in the seruice of Christ against the Turke how the Pope had surprised a part of his kingdom with armes Gegory in his letters replied that because Raynold Frederiks captaine inuaded the kingdome of Scicily the speciall patrimonie of the church least the See Apostolike should thereby be impugned his Legates entred Frederiks kingdom found many ready to submit themselues This is all that Gregory pretended who woulde not spare to speake any thing that with any colour he might in his owne excuse and against Frederike Blondus finding this to be but a simple cause for the Pope to inuade the Emperors dominion in his absence in that seruice first for so much as the right of Scicily was in strife between the Empire the church of Rome secondly for that if Scicily were held in fee of the church of Rome yet Frederike was right heire vnto it by the mother side in ful possessioÌ„ of that kingdom before he was made Emperor therfore wel Raynold his captaine might put ouer souldiers into Scicily to man the forts for al occasions to containe them in their duties whatsoeuer should happeÌ„ to his master in that voiage against the Turk But other inuasâ—oÌ„ preiudicial to the church of Rome the princes captaine neither needed nor coulde make any Bondus I say perceiuing that Gregories pretence woulde seeme but a quarel sought of purpose to make a rebellion against the Emperour whiles he was from home helpeth the matter with certaine additions which are both odious and slaunderous Frederik saith he ready to take ship saile froÌ„ Italie was so far froÌ„ asking the Popes absolution benediction that making one Rainold the gouernor of the kingdome of Scicilie in plaine words willed him to oppresse the Pope and Clergie by all meanes Blondus might haue doone well to tell vs who stoode by and heard these wordes which Gregorie would neuer haue omitted if he had knowen them And if the Pope that sifted his words and deedes with all diligence knew no such thing how shoulde Blondus so many yeres after come by the knowledge of them The other obiection that he despised the Popes absolution is as foolish For as soone as he was landed on the other side and began to march towardes the Turke Platina confesseth that he was very earnest both by letters and messengers to be absolued by the Pope from his excommunication and could not obtaine it To haue delt therefore with the Pope before his going to be absolued had beene in vaine the Pope doubting that he would not goe and refusing as your selues confesse to absolue him when he was there arriued and encamped against the Turke Phi. The Pope would not absolue him because he went about to make peace with the Turke The. The Pope would euer haue some cause to molest him otherwise I see no reason to mislike the peace For whether the Turke stood in feare of him or was to be distracted emploied about other wars I know not the Emperor had not bin there a yere but the Turke was glad to yeeld him the kingdome of IerusaleÌ„ sauing the Temple a few Castles to hold peace with him and Christendom for ten yeres Which conclusion as it was honorable in it selfe so was it acceptable to all Christian states saue only to the Pope mary he of meere malice against Frederike when the letters were brought that should aduertise him of the Emperours good successe threw them away and shewed him-selfe much agreeued with the matter as one that did abode the Princes speedie returne would disappoint him of his hope And he missed not his
Polydore that king Iohn desirous to eternise the memorie of this good turne made himselfe beneficiarie to the Bishop of Rome with this prouiso that the kings of England after that should receiue the right of their crowne only from the Pope But the kings that followed neuer obserued this forme neither do the Chronicles of England report any such submission Wherfore it is certain that all those burdens were laid on the person of king Iohn that offended and not on his successors Phi. For heresie George king of Boemland was excommunicated and thereupon by the forces of the king of Hungarie at length actually depriued Theo. For the mislike of your Romane vanities your holy father plaied his part with George king of Boemland 1466. yeares after Christ as he had done with other Princes before deiecting him from his kingdome by presumptuous iudgement at Rome and inticing the Princes that were neighbours in hope of his kingdom to inuade him with armes to ioine with the Bohemians that rebelled against him Which offer Mathias king of Hungary first imbraced a proud vnthankfull crafty fraudulent ambitious man as Frederike the 3. then Emperor of Rome complained of him in his embassage to Cazimire king of Pole might well appeare by his behauior to king George who had him in hold when he was chosen king of Hungarie might haue depriued him both of kingdom life would not but yet that inhumane aspiring head of his did not preuaile For George persisted died king of Bohemia notwtstanding the Popes curses Mathias forces and after his death was Vladislaus Cazimires sonne chosen to the kingdome and not onely helde it in spite of Mathias and the Popes grant to him none else but also succeeded Mathias in the kingdom of Hungarie Phi. Yet the Pope gaue the kingdom of Bohemia to Mathias Theo. Hee might haue giuen him the kingdom of Constantinople or Persia with as much right as he did this but howe that gift was esteemed euen by those that otherwise depended on the church of Rome the choice of a new and the next king did declare Phi. Also Iohn Albert had halfe his kingdom of Nauarre taken from him by Ferdinandus surnamed Catholicus of Aragon for that he gaue aid to Lewes the 12. being excommunicated by Iulius the second Theo. The driftes of Princes intertaining the Popes Buls and admitting his keyes so farre as they make for their profit do not proue the Popes power to be good or their persons states to be subiect to his censures by Gods Law Philip the 2. king of Fraunce was earnest to execute the Popes Bull against king Iohn spared no cost for the preparation of the warre The cause was he hoped to get the Crowne of England for his paines but Lodouike his sonne Philip the 4. this Lewes whom you name neither reuerenced nor regarded the Popes Buls which made against them but shewed a manifest contempt of his censures with open Edicts seuered themselues their people from his obedience So Ferdinand king of Spaine when by violent suddain inuasion he had gotten that part of Nauarre which bordered vpon him was content for the keeping of it to pretend the Popes Bul against Lewes the 12. but Charles the fift the next king of Spaine could let his soldiers surprise Rome and desposse it in most cruel maner abusing illuding the Priests Nonnes Bishops Cardinals with all military despites furies keepe the Pope fast lockt in prison till he paied 400000. pounds for his ransome and consented to such other conditions as they listed to prescribe Phi. It was not Charles wil that Rome should be sacked or the Pope thus handled it was the Germanes rage for want of pay Theo. Charles coulde doe litle if he could not dissemble He neither rebuked his armie nor inlarged the Pope nor recompensed any part of the Pillage which his soldiers as well Spaniards as Germanes had committed in Rome leauing nothing behinde them that was worthy the taking And so long though his consent did not appeare yet he made his aduantage of their act and secretly supported them by his protraction to take the whole spoile of the citie Phi. The variance betweene the Pope Charles was for temporal matters Theo. So Lewes the 12. contended with Iulius the 2. for temporall dominion therefore the king of Nauarre ayding the French king in a ciuill quarell was nothing so much to be blamed as Charles but the trueth is Ferdinand had cast his eyes on that kingdom confining so neere lying so commodious the ancient desire of the kings of Spaine to be Lords of Nauarre being wel knowen as Guicciardin confesseth for that cause when he could deuise no better title he took hold of the Popes Bul colouring his iniurious ambitioÌ„ with a semblaÌ„ce of Romish deuotion Phi. It is holden at this day by the same right Theo. This was no right other I knowe none the king of Spaine hath to it besides the sword by the which it was gotten not yet 73. yeares since Phi. Wil you dispute his title Theo. I am not so curious in an other mans common wealth let the Princes whom it concerneth trie their own titles yet this is certaine that neither the kings of England France nor Spaine would suffer the Pope to dispose their kingdoms or any part of their dominions against their likings Phi. For like causes and namely for that he was vehemently suspected of the murther of the blessed Bishop S. Thomas of Canterbury was Henrie the second driuen by Alexander the third to order and penance Theo. The strife betweene the king Thomas Becket then Archbishop of CaÌ„terburie is reported before not now to be iterated The lawes liberties of the church for the which he resisted the king were nothing else but the rescuing of malefactors if they were Clerkes from due punishmeÌ„t exempting themselues from the kings subiection which be quarels of their own nature wicked irreligious therefore well you may call him BLESSED because you be consorted in the same quarell with him against God your Prince otherwise his pride was intolerable his contention with the king detestable his end miserable Phi. Are you not ashamed to staine the glory of that worthy Martyr Theo. First proue him an innocent before you make him a Martyr Phi. Who euer charged him with any crime Theo. The very cause he stood in was crime enough besides his resisting the prince which S. Paul pronounceth to be damnable Phi. Do you make it damnable to defende the liberties of the church Theo. To dreame that the statelines of Popes and licentiousnes of Priests was the perfection happines of Christs church and in that leâ—de conceit to neglect your othes resist the powers which God hath established is a triple damnation Phi. That we do not Theo. That he
heretiks from the beginning of the world to this day haue beene hampered So that your eye sight was not vp when you tooke a prayer for a iudgement a fourme of imprecation for a sentence of depriuation a curse precedent for an execution that should be subsequent Phi. This was the right and power of S. Gregorie and this hath been the fayth of christian men euer sith our Countrie was conuerted and neuer subiect called in question much lesse accused of treason for it til this time and lest of al made or found treason by the old lawes in K. Edward the thirds raigne as is pretended howsoeuer by their new Lawes they may and do make what they list a crime capitall Theo. Gregorie cursed them and prayed against them that should disorder or alter his grant made at the Princes motion with the consent of al the prelates in Italie with the good will of the Romane Senate and the fauourable iudgement of al the Bishops of France This is not it that is called in question You beare armes against your naturall prince and encourage her subiects that by Gods law should obey her to take her crowne from her when the Pope willeth them This Gregorie neuer spake of neither did England at any time frō the first receiuing of the faith to this day euer acknowledge any such right or power in the Pope to depose princes Much lesse then was this the faith of christian men euer sith our Countrie was conuerted as you brauely but falsely boast Phi. In K. Iohns time the Prince realme were of this opinion which wee are now Theo. They were not Some bishops Monks offended with the King for the losse of their goods fled the realm tooke part with the Pope against the King the Barons for other causes loued not their King as appeared by their departure frō him in Normandie before this trouble began by their general rebellion against him when the Pope had not only released him but also did vphold him to the vttermost of his power And though he had lost the hearts of his Nobilitie before now of his Clergie by turning them out of al their liuings yet was there no conspiring against him in those fiue yeres in which hee stoode excommunicate And to him for defence of himself his land came threeskore thousand able men of his own subiects wel furnished besides an infinite number that were sent home againe for want of armour and a fleete greater than that which the King of Fraunce had against him Phi. If his armie were so great and his people so sure why would he not trie the field with the king of France Theo. He saw the strife was but for the admittance of a bishop better to slip his right in so small an iniurie than to put his owne state and welfare to the doubtful successe of battaile Phi. The storie saith he was afraid lest he should bee left alone in the field bee forsaken of his own nation nobles Theo. So Pandulfus told him to afreight him make him yeelde the sooner but the Pope himself cōplaineth of the contrarie that the Barons of Englād by a peruerse order did rise in armes against their king after hee was conuerted and had satisfied the Church who assisted him when hee did offend the Church And yet I am of opinion they would easily haue forsaken him not for respect of your Romish censures but for their extreme detestation of his odious and tyrannous gouernement which they shewed after his reconciliation to the See of Rome more than they did before and obeyed neither King nor Pope so long as he liued and enioyed the Crowne This realme therfore in the time of King Iohn assisted their Prince against the Pope and when the king had submitted himselfe and rented his Crowne at the Popes handes they resisted both Prince and Pope and elected an other Afore that and since that this realm neuer confessed or beleeued any right or power in the pope to depose Princes Phi. They neuer made it treason to be of that beliefe til this miserable time in which wee lyue Theo. Richard the second very neere two hundreth yeres agoe made it death for any man to bring or sende within this realme any summons sentence or excommunication from Rome against any person for the cause of making motion assent or execution of the statute of prouisours which barred the bishoppe of Rome from giuing reseruing or disposing Bishopricks and benefices in this land To impeach the Kings lawes or to defeate him of his smaller inheritances as aduousons Patronages by censures from Rome was death in those dayes what thinke you would they haue sayd to him that shoulde haue brought a bull to depriue the Prince of his crowne or a warrant to rebel against him to take his life from him as you doe in our dayes And because you stand so much on the word treason why should not the statute of Edward the thirde recensing Treasons extend directly to your doings It is there numbred among treasons to compasse or imagine the death of the King to leuy warre against him in his Realme or to bee adherent to the Kinges enemies in his Realme or to giue them ayde and comfort within the realme or else where If al wars waged against y◠prince within the Realme that is by subiects are treasonable howe shoulde your warres for religion against your soueraigne be iust and honourable If to ayde or comfort the kinges enemies within the realme or else where be trayterous conspiracie how can you stirre vp forraine power to assault the realme perswade the people of this land with armes to displace the prince and not incurre that crime Phi. Doe wee set straungers to inuade or subiects to rebell Theo. You be adherents and instruments to him that doth Phi. You meane wee bee of the same faith with the Church of Rome If that bee treason then wee are traytours Theo. We talke not of your fayth but of your woorkes Beleeue what you list so you meddle not with ayding nor comforting inuasion nor rebellion Phi. We doe not Theo. You commend them and allowe them that wil doe either yourselfe in this place defende their enterprise to be godly iust and honorable Your fellowes before you in their printed bookes openly did celebrate them as Martyrs that lost their liues in the North for bearing armes against the Queene What greater comfort can you giue to rebels and enemies than to animate and encourage them with praises promises defences and honors both in this worlde and the next It is more pernicious to fire the heart than to warme the hand to minister courage than to giue drinke to them that shal fight against the Prince In all actions the perswaders and enducers are equal with the doers and executours Why then should you not bee within the
and euerlasting God Howe are you not afraide to defend the worshipper when God accurseth the maker of any such carued or molten Image as being an abomination in his sight Doth your cunning or conscience serue you to gaine-say the manifest voice of God himselfe speaking by his Prophet To whom now will you liken me that I should be like him saith the holy one Phi. We be not so foolish as to thinke the shape of a mortal man resembleth the incomprehensible substance of the deitie Theo God graunt you be not Doe you then acknowledge that euery likenesse made with hands to represent the God of heauen is an Idole Phi. Euerie likenes what meane you by that Theo. I meane the likenes of man woman or of any other creature in heauen or earth Phi. It is somwhat hard to call the Image of God an Idol Theo. To call that an Idol which man maketh for an Image vnto God since God himselfe refuseth euery such likenes and pronounceth it accursed and abominable is no hardnes at al. Yea rather to giue it a better name were to make God a liar and in spite of his spirite to saue the Iewes and Gentils from that Idolatrie wherewith they were charged and for the which they be condemned in the scriptures For the things which they worshipped they thought to be the Images of God and in that respect did they honour not them so much as God by them supposing them to be his Images Phi. The Gentils and Iewes that were Idolaters worshipped false Gods and not the Image of the true God Theo. Their false Gods were the workes of mens hands made to resemble in their conceit the true God The children of Israell did not thinke their golden Calfe to bee a God but minding to haue some monument of God alwaies in their sight to stirre them to deuotion they made choice of a calfe because they had seene such Images set vp to God in Egypt where the people seruing God in that visible shape were wealthie and mightie by which blessings they coniectured God was wel pleased with the seruice of Egypt and therfore to testifie their thankefulnesse for their deliuâ—rance they erected an Image vnto god their deliuerer and proclaimed an holy day not to the calfe but vnto the Lord. The mother of Micheala vowed siluer vnto the Lord to make a grauen and molten Image Which she after perfected and named Teraphim building a chapel and entertaining a Leuite for it in the honor no doubt of him to whom the siluer was first dedicated The Iewes in all their generations knewe there was no god but one and yet seeing the Gentils that serued god in the shape of a man or likenes of other creatures to prosper and liue at hearts ease and oftentimes to be Lordes ouer them that were the people of god they fell to the manners of the nations round about them and honored as they thought the true god of Israell with bodily shapes and figures whereas god by his prophets notwithstanding their good intentions reiected and reproued that their seruice as doone to strange gods and Idols Yea Baal it selfe which the Scripture detesteth as a most infamous Idole was nothing els but a corporall Image erected vnto god by which the people dreampt they serued and pleased god as may be gathered by Osee where god promiseth to receiue Israell vnto fauour and to cause them to cease from their Idolatrous dishonouring him with the name of Baal At that day saith the Lord thou shalt call me no more Baal and by Esay where god denieth the Images that were set vppe for him to bee like vnto him The very heathens were not so blind as to beleeue the things which they made with their hands were gods neither did they set them vp as gods but rather as Images vnto god whom they thought to bee delighted with that kinde of visible and voluntarie seruice Sainct Ambrose saith of them Gentes lignum adorant quia Dei Imaginem putant The heathen worship their peeces of wood because they thinke them to bee the Images of God Themselues could answere the Christians in that sort as Celsus in Origen Quod si vel lapidem negent vel lignum vel aes vel aurum Deum esse ridiculum profecto erit id sapere Quis enim eà nisi stolidus quispiam pro Dijs habuerit Sed Deorum sunt ista vel sacra vel effigies quaedam If the Christians denie things made of wood stone brasse or gold to be God we graunt that were a ridiculous opinion Who but a starke foole did euer account them for Gods Yet these are seruices vnto the Goddes or else certain resemblances of the Goddes So Lactantius witnesseth of them Non ipsa inquiunt timemus sed eos ad quorum Imaginem ficta quorum nominibus consecrata sunt The heathen vse to say we stand not in awe of these Images but of them after whose likenes they be figured in whose names they be dedicated Their wordes in Clemens are Nos ad honorem inuisibilis Dei visibiles Imagines adoramus Wee worship the images which we may see in the honour of that God which can not be seene And in S. Austen Nec simulachrum nec Daemonium colo sed per effigiem corporalem eius rei signum intueor quam colere debeo I worship neither the Image nor the Diuel but by a corporal figure I behold the signe of that which I ought to worshippe Saint Paul chargeth all the Gentiles not with hauing new Goddes or other Goddes but for turning the trueth of God vnto a lie to witte the glorie of the incorruptible GOD to the similitude of the Image of a corruptible man which they made and honoured as the Images of the true GOD. Grosser idolatrie than the which can not bee committed For if to worship the creatures them-selues which are the workes of Gods handes and wherein his eternall power and diuinitie doe appeare were palpable Idolatrie howe inexcusable is it to serue the woorkes of our owne handes and the shadowes of those creatures prepared by art and applied by our vaine conceite to resemble the creator you must therefore either graunt euery likenes made with handes and set vp for an image vnto God to be an idole or else excuse both Iewes and Gentiles from idolatrie which I trust you will not Phi. The gentiles knew not God and for that cause could set vp no Image vnto God but vnto their owne ignorant imagination of God Theo. And you that presume to knowe god if you set vp such images vnto god as the gentiles did which knewe him not you bee ranker Idolaters than they were The more knowledge you haue of god the more sure you bee that those thinges made with handes bee no way like vnto god and that hee vtterly detesteth and expressely forbiddeth both the making and the reuerencing of all
Not that hee woorshipped the staffe but him that helde it in a signe of loue Then alleaging the brasen Serpent and the Cherubins made by Moses Salomon hee descendeth to other testimonâ—es of Esay and Dauid as sitte for his purpose as salt for sore eyes Esai sayth In those dayes there shal be an altar vnto the Lorde in the mydst of the Lande of Egypt and a pillour touching the ends therof and it shall be for a signe and a testimonie to the Lord in the land of Egypt And Dauid the tuner of Psalmes sayth confession and beautie before him And againe Lord I haue loued the comlynes of thine house And againe Thy face Lord wil I seeke And againe the rich among the people shall bowe themselues before thy face And againe the light of thy countenance is signed vpon vs. These bee the best proofes which Adrian or hee that framed this letter in Adrians name could finde in all the Scriptures for the making and adoring of images and these you see bee very miserable For what fellowship hath Adams act Abels sacrifice Noahs or Abrahams altar Iacobs stone and staffe Esaies title or pillour with images or when Dauid spake of the face and countenance of God did he so much as dreame of the grauen and woodden figures which you would erect vnto God against his heauenly will and trueth Phi. In deed these places be not altogether so pertinent as we could wish theÌ„ but the brasen serpent the two Cherubins which Moses set vp directly make for Images Theo. They doe not warrant your erecting of Images and your adoring of Images they vtterly ouerthrow For the Brasen serpent was a figure of Christ as we find confirmed by his owne wordes in the gospell of S. Iohn and yet though God commaunded Moses to make it and healed the dreadfull plague of the people by it and the Iewes had kept it aboue 700. yeres as a monument of Gods mercie toward them in the desert when they beganne but to burne incense to it Ezechiah the religious King of Iudah brake it in peeces and is commanded by the holie Ghost namely for that act This example wee would haue you aduisedly to marke A figure of Christ erected by Gods owne commaundement and seruing to put al Israels posteritie in minde of the wonders which their fathers saw in the wildernesse when it was abused was defaced and the fact allowed by Gods owne mouth Hence we conclude that the painted and carued Images of Christ himselfe may not be adored and if they be they may be remoued though they were deliuered euen by the Apostles as yours were not The Cherubines were made by Gods appointment but not set in any place for the people to adore them or so much as to see them nay the Priests themselues were kept from the sight of them only the high-Priest once euery yere went into the second Tabernacle where they stoode the vaile being closely drawen betweene that and the first Tabernacle where the rest of the Priests serued And since Gods care was so great that they should not be seene wee inferre his will was as cleare that they should not be worshipped for so much as they could not be worshipped vnlesse they were seene Phi. Yet this sheweth that God would haue them made Theo. But not seen much lesse worshipped And as for the making of them Gods act aboue his Law is no warrant for you to breake his Law By his Law he restraineth you not himselfe from the making of any such similitudes And therefore though he might for causes to him knowen goe against his Law you may not This rule Tertullian will teach you It is no hurt that the same God by his Law forbade a similitude to be made and by an extraordinary precept commaunded the similitude of the brasen serpent to be made If thou wilt obay God thou hast his law make thee no similitude If thou looke to the precept that was giuen after for making a similitude then see thou imitate Moses Make no Image against the law vnlesse God bid thee as he did Moses Phi. The fathers who knew the Scriptures as well as you were of an other minde as you may see by Adrians letters auouching many and good authorities out of them Theo. Adrian dealeth with the fathers as hee did with the Scriptures Eight of them he alleageth and abuseth euerie one of them Augustine saith The Image of God what is it but the face of God in which the people of God are signed And Ambrose when we worship in Christ the diuine Image and Crosse do we part him in sunder The diuine Image and countenance which these fathers speake of is the brightnes of Christes diuine nature and glorie his crosse is his death and humilitie those Adrian grossely supposeth to be such as grauers caruers doe make with their hands And where Cyril saith Faith painteth or liuely describeth vnto vs the worde which was in the forme of God that euidence clearenes of the Gospell setting the sonne of God in his diuine maiestie before our eyes your holy father lewdly misconstereth for painting with pencils and coulours Athanasius Chrysostome and Basil drawing similitudes from the painters art and Emperours Image to other purposes are violently wrested to make for that they neuer ment nor thought Gregory Nissene confesseth he had often seen the storie of the passion pictured but he neither saith in Churches nor alloweth it any worshippe Hierom is brought in last and made to say that which not only no learned father euer vttered but no sober nor Christian man euer imagined As God gaue leaue to the Gentils to worshippe things made with hands and to the Iewes to worshippe the carued workes and two golden cherubins which Moses made so hath hee giuen to vs Christians the Crosse and to paint and reuerence the Images of good workes and so to get him to like of our labour The two first pointes that God gaue leaue to the Gentils to worshippe things made with hands and licenced the Iewes to adore the woorkes and shapes of Cherubins which Moses made are so directly against the trueth of the Scriptures and rule of our faith that nothing can be more the last may well bee written by him that wrate the first and as soone true as the rest And were it found in Hieroms workes as it is not it would but argue that other mens hands had beene in Hieroms bookes as well as his which is no newes in the most of the Fathers Greeke and Latine that you haue left vs at this day But of that paines Adrian himselfe hath eased vs by alleaging that which is not in all S. Hieromes volumes Amidst the route of these follies and forgeries commeth in that Bastard place of Basil no where found in all his writings which besides the apparant slander there
peeces to set vp the image of himselfe which God ouerthrew with fire froÌ„ heauen not in defence of the brasen shape but of his holy name prophaned and illuded by this Apostata Phi. This image the Apostles sawe and suffered Theo. A memoriall of their masters act not abused by the people and erected before they came to preach the Gospell to that place they might suffer but they neuer taught men to make the like nor allowed any to worshippe that Phi. Wee thinke they learned the setting vppe of this image from the Apostles Theo. Eusebius sayth they did it of an heathenish custome and not of an Apostolike instruction His wordes are And no maruell that the Heathens which were healed of our Sauiour did him this honour for so much as wee haue seene the images of his Apostles Paul and Peter and of Christ himselfe drawen in colours and kept in tables which kinde of honour antiquitie of a custome which they vsed when they were heathens was wont to yeelde to such as they counted Benefactors Sauiors Phi. By that you see the images of Christ his Apostles were expressed in colours and reserued by the auncient christians long before Eusebius Theo. Eusebius doeth not report it as a thing either openly receiued in Churches or generally vsed of all christians but as a secrete and seldome matter rising from the perswasion and affection of some which whiles they were heathen had yeelded that honour to other of their friendes fautors to whom they were most beholding For had the Apostles deliuered any such tradition or the Primatiue church of Christ vsed any publike erection of images as you suppose would the councell of Eliberis in Spaine assembled about the time of Constantine the great in plaine words haue banished them out of their churches Placuit picturas in ecclesiis esse non debere ne quod colitur aut adoratur in parietibus dâ— pingatur We haue decreed that pictures ought not to be in the churches lest that which is worshipped or adored be painted on walles Woulde S. Augustine thinke you haue pronounced them worthy to erre which sought Christ his Apostles in pictures paintings if the people had bin taught that way to seeke him Sic omnino errare meâ—uerunt qui Christum Apostolos eius non in sanctis codicibus sed in pictis parietibus quaesierunt So they deserued to erre which sought Christ and his Apostles not in the sacred Scriptures but in paynted walles Or would Epiphanius haue rent the image which he found hanging in the church by Ierusalem and pronounced such painted imagery notwithstanding it represented Christ or one of his Sainctes to be contrary to the Scriptures to the religion of Christ. His words are When I entered the church to pray I found hanging there in the enterance of the saide church a stained and a painted cloath hauing the image as it were of Christ or one of the Sainctes When I sawe this that against the authoritie of the Scriptures the image of a man was hanged vp in the church I did teare it in sunder And I pray you hereafter to command that such cloathes repugnant to our religion be not hanged in the church of Christ. It becommeth your fatherhood rather to haue this care to banish this superstition vnfit for Christes church and for the people committed to your charge By this you may see that images were not receiued much lesse adored in the church of Christ whiles these ancieÌ„t fathers liued and that to remoue them and keepe them out of the church was then adiudged a seemely care for Christian Bishoppes agreeable with the Catholike profession and publike vse of the church of Christ in those dayes Phi. Gregorie the first you know was of an other minde that images should be suffered and not defaced in the church Theo. Gregorie liued 300. yeares after the councell of Eliberis and 200. after Epiphanius in which time the painting of stories was crept into the church as an ornament for the naked walles and a meane to set before the peoples eyes the liues and labours of the Sainctes and Martyrs but that pictures or images in the church shoulde bee worshipped or adored Gregorie did in most manifest words abhorre alleadging the law of God which we do that nothing made with hands should be adored or serued Phi. Not with diuine honor Theo. You meane with no part of that honor which God requireth of vs. Phi. What else They must not haue diuine honour in whole or in part Theo. Then must they haue none at all For God requireth bodily honor no lesse than ghostly as due to him and by his law excludeth all thinges made with handes from hauing either in saying Thou shalt not bow down to them nor serue them Phi. Bowing the knee is not diuine honour but such as wee yeeld to Parents Magistrates Theo. Bowing the knee is a part of Gods honor as also holding vp the handes and lifting vp the eyes To me saith God shall euery knee bow For this cause saith Paul doe I know my knees vnto the father of our Lord Iesus Christ shewing that the bowing of our knees is an honour due to God euen as the lifting vppe of our handes and eyes belongeth likewise vnto him As long as I liue sayeth Dauid I will magnifie thee on this maner and lift vp my handes in thy name I will sayeth the Apostle that the men pray euerie where lifting vp pure handes And so for the rest Vnto thee saith Dauid do I lift vp mine eyes thou that dwellest in the heauens And againe Mine eyes are euer vnto the Lord. And so of our Sauiour when he praied S. Iohn reporteth He lift vp his eyes to heauen and saide The outward honor therefore of eyes handes kneâ—s God requireth of vs as his due though chiefly and principally the heart which he will not suffer any man to haue besides himselfe howsoeuer he allow those that present his goodnesse and glorie in blessing and iudging as Parents and Magistrates to haue some part of his corporall but in no wise of his spirituall honour Phi. And so many images haue part of his external though not of his internal honour which is the higher of the twaine and meeter for the diuine maiesty Theo. It is not in your handes to make allowance of Gods honour to whome you list and againe God himselfe hath made a plaine prohibition in this case that images shall haue no part of his externall honour The wordes are as cleare as day light thou shalt not bow downe to them Phi. Not to the images of false Gods Theo. It is but lost labor to reason with such wranglars Haue not I mainly proued that this precept expressely forbiddeth the Image of the true God to be made or bowed vnto Why then take you vp those shifts againe which be false and refuted
vt Deorum vestrorum partes forsitan adoratis Crosses wee neyther worship nor wish for you that dedicate woodden Gods you happily adore woodden crosses as partes of your Gods But what neede I farther refell that councell as not catholike which was presently reiected and pithily confuted by the Bishoppes and churches of the West whose labours are extant at this day brought to light by men of your owne religion and saued from the moothes which you ment should consume them Thither wee sende you there you shall finde both your adoration of images disclaimed as vncatholike and the reasons and authorities of your second Nicene councell throughly skanned and scattered almost 800. yeares before our time Phi. That booke we receiue not as thinking it to be rather some late forgerie of yours than a monument of that antiquitie Theo. If you receiue not the books that were safe in your own keeping and published by your neerest friends howe should we trust the corruptions that are framed to your purposes and no where fouÌ„d but in your own libraries Phi. Since you distrust our writteÌ„ records why do you not beleeue the faithful report of the church which is the pillour of truth can not be corrupted The. Nay since forgeries be so rise that no father is free from them so grosse that euery child may discerne theÌ„ why do not you beleeue the report of God himselfe the founder and builder of the church and that witnessed in his word of which there is no suspition and against the which there is no exception Phi. As though we did not Theo. Then for adoration of images which you defend shew what presideÌ„t you haue in the word of God Phi. We neede not Theo. We know you cannot Phi. And I reply that we neede not The. Doth it concerne the christian faith and Catholike religion which the godly must professe or no Phi. It doeth Theo. Then must you shew some authority for it in the sacred scriptures or else they must repel it as impious Phi. We haue it by tradition from the Apostles Theo. You would haue wrested so much out of S. Basill but that your cunning failed you Phi. From them we had it Theo. Wee say you had no such thing from them and further we adde that if it be a matter of doctrine beliefe as you make it you must haue it testified in their writinges and not concealed among their traditions Phi. No Sir we beleeue many thinges whereof this is one that are not written but were deliuered vs by secrete succession Theo. The greater is your sinne and the vnsounder is your Creede In matters of faith you should beleeue nothing but that which is expressely warranted by the scriptures And therefore in this and other points of your Romish deuotion now brought to triall if you want the foundation of true faith and religion in vaine do you seeke to make a shew of catholicisme with such patches pamslets as Monks Friers haue forged colored with the names of fathers The catholike church of Christ neuer receiued nor beleeued any point of faith vppon tradition without the Scriptures Phi. We haue to the contrary plaine Scriptures al the fathers most euident reasons that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing at all Theo. Wee knowe you can bragge but you haue neither Scripture father nor reason to impugne that which we affirme Phi. For traditions we haue Theo. Tradition is any thing that hath beene deliuered or taught by word or mouth or by writing touching the groundes of faith or circumstances and ceremonies of christian Religion And therefore when you muster the fathers to disproue the scriptures and to establish an vnwritten faith vnder the credit of traditions you corrupt the writers and abuse the readers Phi. How can we doe that when wee bring you the very words of the Authors themselues Theo. Hâ—w can you choose but doe it when you force the fathers to speake against themselues Phi. Do wee Theo. Your Rhemish translators perceiuing the weight of their whole cause to lie on this haue marshalled nine fathers in a ranke namely S. Chrysostom S. Basill S. Hierom S. Augustine S. Epiphanius S. Ireneus S. Tertullian S. Cyprian and Origen but to what purpose can you tell Phi. To proue that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing Theo. Beleeue them as articles of our faith or exercises of our profession Phi. Why make you that distinction Theo. Because the very same fathers that say traditions must bee receiued besides the Scriptures auouch likewise as I before haue shewed that no matter of faith or of any moment to saluation must be receiued or beleeued without scriptures Now choose whether you will graunt a flat contradiction in them or conclude with vs ergo the traditions which they meane bee no partes nor pointes of the christian faith And so these nine fathers on whose credits you thought to plant your late found faith hold nothing with you but rather against you Phi. How make you that appeare Theo. Uiew them once more Wee haue their plaine confession that all things necessary to saluation are comprised in the scriptures You produce them to witnes that your traditions bee not comprised in the scriptures Ergo by your own deponents we conclude that your traditioÌ„s be neither necessary to saluation nor points of the catholik faith without which we can not be saued Looke well to this issue they must either dissent from your religion or from themselues Phi. Your maior is not yet proued Theo. Yes with firm surer authorities than those be which you bring let the places be skanned which I before rehearsed the matter left to the iudgement of the reader Or if you be loath to looke so far back examine shortly thâ—se that follow The holy Scriptures inspired from heauen are sufficient for all instruction of truth sayth Athanasius The Gospell saith Chrysostom containeth al things whatsoeuer is requisite for saluation al that is fully laid downe in the Scriptures In the two Testaments sayth Cyril euery word or thing that pertaineth to God may be required discussed SufficieÌ„t to vs for saluatioÌ„ is the truth of Gods precepts saith Ambrose And Augustin There were chosen to be written such things as seemed to the holy ghost sufficient for the saluation of the faithfull Vincentius Lirinensis whoÌ„ you greatly boast of but without all cause agreeth with the rest that The Canon of the Scripture is perfect sufficient more thaÌ„ sufficient to al things And againe Not that saith he The canon alone is not sufficient for al things as it were taking great heed least he should seeme to deny the fulnes of the scriptures which you purposely impugne vnder a colour of catholicisme by his writings Now cite not only nine but nines kore fathers if you wil for traditions the more you stirre the worse you
be whether euerie ladde or lasse prentise and ploughman exactly vnderstand euery word that is written but whether they edifie the church of Christ or no that is whether they haue in them many thinges fruitfull to be knowen and easie to bee learned if the hearers will be diligent and delight in the law of God as they ought are bound to doe And in this case masters you be not only snappish but very saucy with God himself that wil not suffer him to speak in his Church by the mouthes of his Prophetes and Apostles if you finde any sot or simâ—le idiote in the company that happily vnderstandeth not euery word which the holy Ghost vttereth Were you Surgions of the body and had some in cure that could not see with one eye to remedy that imperfection would you put out both and make them starke blind Phi. A wise similitude Theo. As wise as your illation against our diuine seruice For where some be so dull and ignorant that they conceiue not diuerse thinges in the Psalmes Lessons and prayers to helpe that you would take from them the rest which they doe vnderstand and so fill their eares with the strangenesse of an vnknowen tongue that their hearts perceiue iust asmuch of your prayers as blind men â—o of colours And see you not that your assertion strangleth it selfe and clearly conuinceth the vnfruitfulnesse of your latine prayers For if the people bee so simple that they vnderstande not the sense of many thinges in their mother tongue how many thinke you among them vnderstand the same or any thing else in the latine tongue If the Scriptures must be inioyned silence in the Church because they speake some thinges which the ruder sort can not easily attain what place can be left for your latine Masse Mattines and seruice of which the people vnderstand not one word and the knowledge of so much as one sentence thereof before they can get they must be not only Diuines which you say they are not but good Grammarians which in their education is not possible What else is this but to put out both their eyes where before they vnderstood many things that were both fruitfull and needefull for them so to mure vp their eares and choke vp their harts with a barbarous sound of vnknowen speech that neither the simpler nor wiser sort of them perceiued any line or letter of your seruice Phi. Call you the latine tongue barbarous Theo. Not in it selfe but in respect of the hearer which is not acquainted with it And so S. Paul calleth any language that is not vnderstood barbarous to him that vnderstandeth it not If I know not the power or signification of the speech I shall bee barbarous to him that speaketh and hee that speaketh shall be barbarous to me that vnderstand him not Phi. You are deceiued There is here no worde written or ment of any other tongues but such as men spake in the primatiue Church by miracle Theo. Did not the twelue Apostles that were Hebrewes borne speake Greeke and Latine by the miraculous gift of the holy Ghost descending on them in the likenes of clouen and firie tongues as it is specified in the second of the Actes Phi. I thinke they did because the Romanes are there named amongest those that hearde euery man their owne language at the Apostles mouthes Mary though the Hebrew Greeke and Latine might bee giuen by miracle and without study it being knowen to the Iewes Romanes or Greekes in euery place they be not counted among the differences of barbarous and straunge tongues here spoken of Theo. S. Paul doth not here like a Rhetorician as you would haue him distinguish the tongues which bee most eloquent and oratoricall in themselues that was farre from the Apostles minde or purpose but onely sheweth that euery tongue not vnderstood bee it Hebrew Greeke Latine Persike Arabike or what language you list seemeth not without iust cause to bee barbarous to him that knoweth not the force and signification of the speech And so he limiteth the word barbarous when hee saith If I knowe not the power of the voice I shall bee barbarous to him that speaketh and hee likewise to mee Omnis sermo qui non intelligitur barbarus iudicatur Euery tongue that is not vnderstood is deemed saith Hierom to be barbarous And Chrysostom He shal be barbarous to me and I to him Non vtique ob naturam vocis sed ob imperitiam not by the nature of the toung but by the vnskilfulnes of the hearer Non enim barbarus inquit ero sed loquenti barbarus Et rursus non qui loquitur barbarus est inquits sed mihi barbarous For S. Paul saith not I shal simplie be a barbarian but barbarous to him that speaketh And againe hee that speaketh shall not be absolutely a barbarian but barbarous vnto me saith the Apostle Phi. This we say was not ment of any of the three learned toungs namely not of the Latine Greeke nor Hebrew The. That is one of your oracles in your Rhemish obseruatioÌ„s but we would heare your reasons not your fansies why the Latine toung if it be not vnderstood may not bee counted barbarous to the hearer Phi. Know you that nothing in this chapter is ment of those toungs which were the common languages of the world or of the faithfull vnderstood of the learned and ciuill people in euery great citie and in which the scriptures of the old and new Testament were written Theo. This is pride to affirme what you will your selues â— it is no reason to confirme that which is now in question betwixt vs And yet that which you affirme is either not true or not much to the matter For first in latine no Scriptures were written but the Apostle writing to the Romans wrate in the Greek toung not in latine which argueth that the laâ—ine toung was nothing so much esteemed or so generally dispersed as the Greeke Next that the learned ciuile people in euery great city had the knowledge of the Hebrew Greeke latine is an other of your Iesuitical truthes auouched by no man but by your selues no way possible to be proued but by your magistrall surmises The Hebrew was hard neglected of all men sauing of the Iewes whose peculiar tongue it was the greater cities despising as well the Nation as their language til Christ was ascended between that the preaching of the Gospel in the greater cities the people though they were ciuil had neither time capacity nor meanes to learne a newe tongue and so difficult a tongue both to pronounce and vnderstand as the Hebrew is The Greeke tongue was in high price and farther spred before the birth of our Sauiour not only by reason of the Monarchie which was amongest the Grecians before it came to the Romanes but specially for that all liberall studies artes
Priestes woordes and not be parrets Theo. You defende both as well the priuate prayers of rude and simple men in the Latin tongue as the publike prayers of the Church in the same language though the people vnderstande not a worde either what themselues or what the Priest speaketh Philand The West Church hath alwayes had her seruice in the latin tongue Theo. It forceth not in what tongue shee had or haue her seruice so the people vnderstand it Philand In Latin wee bee sure shee had it Theo. Then may you bee sure the people vnderstood it Phi. The one wee can prooue and so can not you the other Theo. Proue you the one and wee will not misse much of the other Phi. It is well neere a thousand yeeres that our people which coulde nothing else but barbarum frendere did sing Alleluia and not praise yee the Lorde And longer agoe since the poore husbandman sang the same at the plough in other Countries Hieron tom 1. epist. 58. And Sursumcorda and kyrie eleyson and the Psalmes of Dauid sung in Latin in the seruice of the primatiue Church haue the auncient and flat testimonies of Saint Cyprian Saint Augustine Saint Hierome and others Gregor lib. 7. cap. 63. Cyprian exposit oratio Dominicaâ— num 13. August ca. 13. de bono perseuerant de bono viduitat cap. 16. and epistola 178. Hieron praefat in Psalm ad Sophron. August de Catechiz rud cap. 9. de Doctrin Christia lib. 2. cap. 13. See epist. 10. August of Saint Hieroms Latin translation read in the Churches of Africa Theo. Are you not out of breath with alleaging so much Phi. Not a whit You buzze in the peoples eares that our seruice in Latin is not auncient and that in the primatiue Church the people alwayes vnderstoode the tongue wherein the Priest spake looke heere to your vtter shame howe wee reprooue you and conuince you for lyars Theo. Will you not sit downe with vs and take such part as you bring Phi. Keepe your curtesie till we need it Theo. You well deserue it though you will not haue it as shall appeare before you depart You bring vs eleuen fathers to prooue that diuine Seruice hath been alwaies in the latin tongue throughout the West Church if not one of them all proue any such thing are you not woorthie to haue the whetstone Phi. I say they doe Theo. I say they doe not and did they proue it as they do not the greatest doubt is yet behind that is the people might vnderstande the Latin tongue and if that were true you are farther off for al these allegations than euer you were Phi. To saue your selues you will imagine any thing bee it neuer so vnlikely or incredible For trowe you that all the West partes vnderstood the Latin tongue Theoph. In those places where the Fathers whome you name lyued and preached the people vnderstoode the Latin tongue very wel Philand Some perhaps that were trauelers or merchants Theo. The common people of those Countries I say vnderstoode it Philand The ciuiler sort might haue a tast of it Theoph. The basest and rudest that were amongst them vnderstoode the Latin tongue as well as their owne if not better Phi. I thought you woulde haue some such miraculous if not monsterous refuge Theo. It is neither miracle nor monster but a plaine and certain trueth In Italie where Hierom and Gregorie were you doubt not but the vulgar people spake Latin as wee doe English Phi. It was their mother tongue Theoph. Then might plough-men crafts-men yea weomen and children well sing the Psalmes and heare the Scriptures reade in the Latin tongue because it was their natiue tongue which they coulde not choose but vnderstand Philand But Africa where Saint Cyprian and Saint Augustine were had an other tongue of their owne and therefore they coulde not doe the like Theo. It was the Romanes policie to bring the barbarous Countries which they subdued and were neere them as much as was possible to vse the same Lawes and speake the same tongue which them-selues did that they might the better like of their regiment And so had they doone in Africa before S. Austen was borne and the people of those partes about Carthage and Hippo where Cyprian and Augustine were Bishoppes though they were not so exquisite in accents declinations and constructions as the Italians were yet vnderstood they the Latin tongue better than they did their owne by reason their owne was litle vsed and the other wholy taken vp to bee spoken as well as vnderstoode by the meanest and yongest amongst them yea to bee taught their Infants euen in the Nources armes Of him-selfe Saint Augustine confesseth that hee learned the Latin tongue in Africa where hee was borne when hee was dandled of his nource and among the pastimes of those that plaied with him and laughed at him whiles as yet hee was learning to speake and that the common people which neuer went to schoole to learne perfectly vnderstoode Latin not only his sermons made to them and his Psalmes made for them against the Donatists in the Latin tongue do clearely conuince but very often in teaching the people hee giueth testimonie that they all vnderstoode the Latin better than the Punike tongue Minding saith hee to haue the cause of the Donatists knowen to the basest most ignorant and the simplest among the people and by our meanes to sticke in their memories I made a Psalme according to the number and order of the Latin letters to be sung by them beginning thus Omnes qui gaudetis And shewing that they vnderstood Latin better than their owne Countrie speach which was Punike he sayth There is a knowen prouerbe in the Punike tongue which I will vtter to you in Latine because you doe not all vnderstande Punike thereby noting that they all vnderstoode the Latin but not the Punike which yet was their Countrie language Phi. Wee will deale liberally with you for once we graunt you this what gaine you by it Theo. Wee gaine nothing but you loose more than you thinke and as much as wee would wish Phi. The losse is so great that I feele it not Theo. You will tyme enough Your Rhemish Testament to astonish the simple citeth nine authorities in a cluster that the seruice was alwaies in Latin throughout the West Church Gregorie li. 7. epi. 63. Cyprian exposit oratio Dom. Hieron praefat in Psalm ad Sophro. and sixe places of Augustine Will it please you to take these nyne backe againe as no way materiall or pertinent to that purpose for which you bring them Phi. You cast them backe in heapes which is no course to answere them Theo. In heapes they came and in heapes let them goe they neede no farther answering Gregorie speaketh of the Citie of Rome Hierom of the men of his tongue Cyprian and Austen of the seruice in Africa where the people perfectly vnderstoode
personages than those famous and woorthie Pastours that obserued this course in the Church of Christ many hundreths before you were borne and find it most expedient to continue your vnfruitfull manner of praying in a tongue not vnderstoode though the precept of God the Doctrine of the Apostle and the practise of the primatiue Church bee expressely against it O mouthes prepared to sticke at nothing that may any way serue to hoodwinke your hearers In this and many other points of your Religion you runne headlong against the cleare testimonies of the sacred Scriptures and generall consent of the Catholike fathers and yet you will be Catholikes Phi. You be very rife with your reproches Theo. I might iustly giue you some oftener remembrances but that I more respect the seemelynes of the cause which is Gods than the sinnefulnesse of your attempts who neglect Scriptures Fathers Councels Canons Church and all that is to followe the decrees you knowe not of whome and yet will haue it insolencie and madnes in vs to dispute of your actions Philand You doe but slaunder vs. Theoph. Wee haue hitherto slaundered you with matters of trueth if the rest prooue like wee shall doe you no wrong though wee fawne on you lesse Your Masse which this Realme hath nowe reiected what hath it in it either Catholike or Apostolike or any way concordable with Christes insâ—itution Philand You coulde neuer light on a woorse match Of all the rites obseruances and Sacraments which we haue none is more Apostolike more Catholike more conformable to Christes order and example than our Masse and your prophane Supper hath nothing agreeable to the Apostles or Christs institution but all cleane contrary yea your communion is the very table and cup of diuels and your Caluins bread and wine like at length to come to the sacrifice of Ceres and Bacchus Theo. Tie vp your doggish if not diuelish eloquence you shall haue no praise though you take some pride in broching these blasphemies Your poysonfull tongues and vnblushing faces may iniurie the ordinance of God but you can not ouerthrow his trueth If wee had deuised any thing of our owne braines as you haue done the most part of your Religion you would haue kindled I see to some choler that spare vs such speaches for following the very samplar original which Christ did institute as exactly as we possibly might Phi. You follow no part of Christes institution Theo. It is easie for your side to say what you list you were no right Friers if you coulde not speake for your selues but leaue your scoffes vaunts at home bring forth your proofs Phi. I wil beginne with the name and so proceede to the rest of the circumstances You haue smal reason to name the holy sacrament rather the Supper of the Lord than after the maner of the primatiue Church the Eucharist Masse or Liturgie But belike you would bring it to the supper againe or Euening seruice when men be not fasting the rather to take away the olde estimation of the holynes thereof The. If you leaue not so much as the name vntouched I hope you will not conceale any weightie matter of more importance Phi. You may sweare for that and keepe your othe Theo. Then if all your quarrels being discussed you bee found to haue vttered nothing against vs but your sharpe and eger stomackes and notwithstanding your vagaries and resaliries to and fro your Masse bee neither Catholike nor Apostolike deserue you not to beare backe your owne burden and to haue Bacchus Ceres and the rest of your infernall saints to the shrines whence you brought them Phi. When that falleth out which wil be neuer But you delay the time for feare you take the foyle Theo. If your arguments be as quicke as your appetites we shall soone dispatch but bring vs not drippings and say they be deinties Phi. S. Ambrose in hunc locum and most good authors nowe thinke this which the Apostle calleth Dominicam Caenam is not ment of the blessed Sacrament as the circumstances also of the text do giue namelie the reiecting of the poore the riche mens priuate deuouring of all not exspecting one an other gluttonie and drunkennes in the same which cannot agree to the holie Sacrament And therefore you haue small reason as I saide to name the saide holie Sacrament rather the Supper of the Lorde than after the manner of the primatiue Church the Eucharist Masse or Liturgie Theo. Malice bursteth out at your tongues endes when you cannot abide the woordes which wee vse though the Scriptures did first authorize them and the fathers for their partes continue them The Sacrament which the Lorde ordained at his last maundie hath sundrie names that wee finde authenticallie written in the worde of God as the Lordes table the breaking of bread and cup of thanksgiuing the Communion of the bodie and blood of Christ and as we thought till this time the Lordes Supper You beginne to tell vs S. Ambrose is of an other minde and bâ—caâ—se your holde in him was verie small you adde that the most of your selues also doe nowe so thinke A worshipful catch that fifteene hundreth yeres after Christ you come in with your owne verdict in your owne cause and looke to haue it currant Phi. We meane not our selues Theo. You can meane none but your selues or your fellowes For you saie most good Authors now thinke so of our side I am sure you will not agnise that anie be good authors as you call them or that the most of vs are of that opinion and therefore you meane your selues and your owne adherents who were you not partial yet are you too young to bid Augustine Hierome Chrysostome Theodorete and others rise from their chaiers and giue you place Augustine repeating the verie woordes of S. Paul when you come togither this is not to eate the Lords supper saith hanc ipsam acceptionem Eucharistiae Dominicam Caenam vocat the Apostle calleth this verie receiuing of the Eucharist the Lords Supper Hierome commenting vpon the same wordes when you come togither this is not to eate the Lords Supper addeth Now is it not the Lordes Supper as you vse it but mans in as much as you seeme to meete rather to fill your bellies than for the mysterie For the Lordes Supper ought to be common to all because he deliuered the Sacramentes equallie to all his Disciples that were present And a Supper therefore it is called for that the Lord at Supper deliuered the Sacraments Chrysostome affirmeth the same The Apostle toucheth them more dreadfullie with these wordes This is not to eate the Lordes Supper sending them to that night in which Christ deliuered the wonderfull mysteries Therefore he calleth it a Supper for that Supper had all that were present sitting togither in common that is at one time and in one place * As
manifest for Christes mingling water with wine that you are faine to deny the worke Theo. If the Church of Christ did receiue it I will not deny it but if they knew no such monument why should you be suffered now to sort vs out what forgeries you list for Apostolike labours Phil. The sixth generall councell vnder Iustinian receiued the Masse of S. Iames and S. Basill as authentike and proued by their authorities against the Armenians vsing wine alone in the mysteries that Christ had both water and wine in his sacrifice Theo. That councell which you cite was neither the sixt generall nor any generall councell at all It was celebrated 700. and odde yeares after Christ by which time it may be Iames his Liturgie was gotten into some credite amongst them and yet they alleadge neither of them for Christes institution but only that deliuering the Church seruice in writing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they taught that order to perfit the sacred cup with wine and water in the diuine ministration Philand Call you the credite of that councell also in question Theo. I might well do it if I would but follow the iudgement either of your néerest friends or of those that liued next to the time when this councell was called Surius the great Soultan of your side sayeth that some of those are thought to be Supposititij vel Graecorum temeritate deprauati either forged or depraued by the rashnesse of the Grecians And Theophanes who wrate not long after the kéeping of the councell sayeth that those are falsly sayd to be the canons of the sixt councell and giueth this hard iudgement of them vt enim in caeteris omnibus falsitatis arguuntur ita in hac re quoque mentiuntur as in all other things they be taken tardie with falsehood so in this also they make a lie But for our parts we sée no reason to deale so rigorousely with them They were but a prouinciall councell if they were any councell at all for we haue nothing left but the canons and those contradicted by name Next the makers liued more than 700. yeares after Christ and might soone be deceiued by the titles and shewes of these Liturgies Lastly what corruptions haue crept since either into the canons or into the Liturgies we know not and in those cases which the Gospell exactly reporteth as it dooth the Lords Supper we beléeue no man against or without the Gospell And that in Chrysostoms Liturgie water was mingled long after consecration for the people to drinke the booke it selfe will shew you where the words of Christes institution being repeated thrée leaues before when the time for the Priests and people to communicate approched it is said Accipiunt Diaconi sacros calices praestolantes cum feruente aqua venientem Subdiaconum Tunc infundit aquam calidam quantum sufficit Deinde sumit corpus Dominicum The Deacons take the sacred cups or chalices expecting the Deacon that bringeth water that hath boiled Then he powreth in to the chalices warme water so much as sufficeth and after receiueth the Lords body Now Sir with all your cunning tell vs for what signification and mysterie water that had sodde was powred into the chalice after consecration if not to temper and delay the headinesse of the wine before the priest or people did drinke of it and if your braines be not mingled with too much melancholie you will perceiue that could be no part of Christs institution Phi. We find no such thing in Chrysostoms Masse Theo. It were maruel that I should find it and not you Phil. Reade his Liturgie translated by Erasmus and if you find it I will giue you this hand Theo. Your hand will do me no good I had rather you should confesse a truth than hazard a ioint Reade Chrysostoms Liturgy which Leo Thuscus translated into the Latin tongue and Claudius de Saintes a man of your Religion hath set foorth of Plantines Presse 1560. and if you find not the words as I repeat them returne theÌ„ to me for masterlesse creatures which I would be loth you should Phil. But mention is made in the very beginning of the same Liturgie that the priest mixed water with wine before consecration Theo. It may be the priest did temper that which himselfe should drincke before consecration But after consecration before the rest of the Clergie or the people did communicate they delaied it with water in such sort as I tell you what the cause was iudge you Phil. Why this was done I can not so well say but this I know that all catholike churches in the world haue euer mixed their wine with water Theo. Had they so done yet so long as they did it for sobrietie not for necessitie it nothing concerneth Christes institution which we labour to restore nor bindeth any man as a matter of religion or coÌ„science but now your flanting humor swelleth aboue truth and measure when you say all Churches in the world haue euer obserued the same Phil. Name one age or place that hath not done it Theo. That is the way indéed to cast the burden on other mens shoulders which your selues should beare and yet we can soone choake you with an instance and that by the verie confession of your owne fellowes Alexander septimus à Petro Pontifex conseâ—raturus primus aquam vino miscuit instituÃtque vt ex azimo non fermentato vt antea consueuit fieret pane Alexander the seuenth from Peter was the first saith Polydore that mingled water with wine at consecration and ordained that the oblation should be of vnleauened bread and not of leauened as till that time was vsed Lo Sir the whole church of Christ in all the Apostles times vsed wine alone an hundred yeares after Christ beganne the first admixtion of water with wine and vse of vnleauened bread in the Lordes supper which you with forgerie vnder Iames name would father on Christ himself though he in the Gospel with his owne mouth deny it For countries we can giue you the like The Armenians for 1145. yeares after Christ died leauened bread and mingled no water with their wine at the Lordes â—akle See the report of Otho Frisingensis in whose time they began to hearken to the church of Rome Their Metropolitane had vnder him a thowsand Bishops and in some things agreed in some things dissented from the Greeke church Where amongst other things he sayth of the whole countrie of Armenâ—a Ponunt fermentatum panem sicut illi aquam autem vino non miscent sicut nos illi They vse leauened bread in the Lordes supper as the Grecians do mary they mingle no water with their wine as both we the Grecians do These bee your famous obiections which you exaggerate as if they were some mighty breaches of Christ ordinaunce wherein to let passe the holde which wee haue in the Gospell being thereby cleared from
full consent of all ages and Churches in expounding the same but also to chase the people by terror of secular power and ecclesiasticall curse from the cup of their saluation from the communion of Christs blood and felowship of his holy spirit Such fathers such fansies What is mockerie what is iniurie to God and man if this be Religion or pietie The Church of Rome you will say concluded with them That increaseth her sinnes and excuseth not their follies If an Angel from heauen had conspired with them our duetie bindeth vs to detest both him and them as accursed if they step from that which the primatiue church receiued from Paul and Paul from Christ Howe much more then ought wee to reiect that which the church of Rome presumeth not onely besides but against the sacred scriptures And yet to speake vprightly the auncient church of Rome maketh wholy with vs in this cause For no church euer resisted your mangled communions with greater vehemencie than the church of Rome did till couetousnesse and pride blinded her eyes and hardned her heart against God and his sonne Pope Iulius that lyued vnder Constantine the great made this decree We heare that certaine led with schismaticall ambition against the diuine ordinances and Apostolike directions doe giue TO THE PEOPLE the Eucharist dipped in wyne for a full communion They receiued not this from the Gospell where Christ betooke his body and blood to the Disciples For there is recited the deliuering the bread by it selfe and the cup by it selfe Let therefore all such error and presumption cease least inordinate and peruerse diuises weaken the soundnes of fayth If the communion bee neither perfite nor agreeable to Christes institution and Apostolike prescription except the people receiue both kinds seuerall and asunder the bread from the cup and the cup from the bread as Christ ordayned and the Gospel declareth Ergo your excluding the people cleane from the cup is altogether repugnant to the manifest intent of our Sauiour and right imitation of his Apostles And what if the first authors of your drie communion were the Manichees are you not wise men and well promoted to forsake the precept which Christ gaue you the president which Paul left you the course which the christian world for so many yeeres obserued and followe so pestilent and pernicious a sect of heretikes reprooued and long since condemned by the church of Rome for that very fraude and abuse in the Sacraments which you bee nowe fallen vnto The Manichees sayth Leo to couer their infidelitie venter to bee present at our mysteries and so carie them-selues in the receiuing of the Sacraments for their more safetie that they take the body of Christ with an vnwoorthy mouth but in any wise they shunne to drinke the blood of our redemption Which I would haue your dâ—uoutnes speaking to the people learne for this cause that such men might bee knowen to you by these markes and when their sacrilegious simulation is founde they may bee noted and bewrayed by the Godly that they may bee chased away by the priestly power Against this disorder of Manichees wrate Pope Gelasâ—â— as your friende Master Harding confesseth Wee haue intelligence that certaine men receiuing onely a portion of the sanctified body abstaine from the cup of the sacred blood who for that it appeareth they be entangled with I knowe not what superstition let them either receiue the whole Sacraments or be driuen from the whole because the diuiding and parting of one and the same mysterie can not bee without grieuous sacrilege The sense is plaine To take the Lordes breade and not drinke of the Lordes cup is a seuering and distracting of this mysterie which by the iudgement of these two Popes is open sacrilege ergo neither Catholike or christian What shift nâ—we Philander to saue your selues from sacrilege Spake Gelasius of the Manichees as Master Harding resolueth Graunt it were so Then what was sacrilege in them can it bee catholike in you If that auncient church of Rome condenmed this in the Manichees howe commeth your late Church of Rome not onely to suffer but also to commaund the same Can you turne darkâ—nes to light and sacrilege to Religion That were a marueilous alteration But Siâ—s your minds may change wee knowe Christes institution can not changâ— The contempt thereof in Manichees in Papistes as then so still was and will be sacrilege Spake Gelasius not of the Manichees but of certaine Priestes that receiuing the bread at the Lordes table neglected the cup Yet Leo speaketh of the Manichees by name and â—hose Laymen and mingled with the people and calleth their forbearing the Lords blood a sacrilegious sleight reason were you should prooue that onely Priesâ—es are ment in this place of Gelasius and not suppose what you list at your pleasures as the gloze doeth and others of your side that stand on this answere The woordes are indefinite and touch as well people as Priest but let vs imagine that Gelasius spake of Priestes first then you commit sacrilege in restraining all Priestes from the communion of both kinds except they say Masse themsâ—lues Next if it bee sacrilege in the Priest why not in the people The precept of our Sauiour drinke ye all of this compriseth all both Laymen and Priestes His Apostle extendeth the same to the whole Church of Corinth Chrysostome sayth the Priest differeth nothing from the people in receiuing the mysteries but one cup is proposed to al In Chalice nobiscum vos estis You sayth Austen to the people are in the Lordes cup no lesse than we The cup was deliuered to all men Priest and people with like condition as Theophilact affiâ—meth Drinke yee all of this that is sayth Paschasius as well other beleuers as Ministers Hence wee frame you this argument The cup was by Christ deliuered to Priest and People with like condition and like precept the refusing of the Lordes cup is sacrilege in priests by the position of Gelasius and the confession of your friends it is therefore no lesse than sacrilege for the people to refraine the same What then is it for you to pull the Lordes cuppe out of their handes by rigor and force for so trifling respectes as you pretende but apparent violent and wilfull sacrilege Phi. It was sacrilege then for the people to refuse or refraine the cup because the church was content to admitte them to it But now the church is otherwise resolued it were sacrilege to expect or demand it Theo. What shall the man of sinne and sonne of perdition when he commeth if hee bee not already come and you his supporters to hold vp his seate in the temple of God say more than you now say that you at your lists may breake the commandements of the great and euerlasting God and alter his ordinances and to blame you for
paines and to make a readier dispatch if you will be ruled by me Phi. What is it Theo. Bring vs but one father for 800. yeares that euer taught your transsubstantiation and wee will count it catholike Phi. What talke you of one You shall haue one hundreth of as auncient and catholike writers as anie were in the Church of christ for a thousand yeares after his ascending to heauen Theo. You were best take it when you be wel offered One faire and sufficient authority shall please vs better than a cartloade of names abused and places peruerted Phi. It is as easie for vs to bring them by whole hundreds A man that once supplied the same roome which you doe nowe hath produced two hundreth of them in his Diacosion Martyrion Vernierus an other of our side hath alledged 318. seuerall and sundrie writers as manie as there were Bishops in the great Councell of Nice Garetius a man of singular reading hath gathered foure hundred fourtie fiue good and substantiall Authors euen from Melchizedech to this present age besides Poets women Councels Miracles visions Iewes Ethnicks and heretiks which all beare witnes to our doctrine And if you haue not seene the bookes I will lend you them for your instruction I could be content I tell you to be at anie cost to win a soul and wish to you no worse than to my selfe Theo. Your kindnes without cause is but seruice without thankes I haue seene your Diacosion Martyrion your great vniuersal Councell militant touching the truth of the most diuine sacrament of the Eucharist assembled by Vernierus your nine orders Rancks of I know not whom digested by Garetius besides the labours trauels of many others your adherents And reading them all I find not one father that euer dreampt of your material corporal conuersion of the elements into christ for 800. yeres vpward Hyperbolical speaches I find in Chrysostom some hard similitudes in damascene others but a manifest testimonie for the real carnal presence which you defend I find none and as for the fathers which be any thing ancient they go clearely and exactly with vs in this question Phi. With you By this a man may perceiue you neuer saw them or at lest neuer read them My selfe can alleage you 500. places wherof you shall not answere one but by meere shifts iestes of tropes and figures and such like mockeries Theo. It were paynes better bestowed for you to vnderstand what you alleage than to alleage that which you vnderstand not You may wrest and misuse 500. places of the fathers as your friends before you haue done in this point your selues in other questioÌ„s haue shewed the like actiuitie But that the substance of the bread vanished by consecratioÌ„ the substaÌ„ce of Christs body really succeedeth vnder the same dimensions accidents of bread wine entereth our mouthes locally coÌ„prised within those formes for this you shal neuer shew vs any one father greeke or latin within the compas of 800. yeres after Christ. Phi. A thousand authorities can we bring you with a wette finger that shall clearly conuince the presence of Christ in the sacrament Theo. And not one of them shal conclude that maner of presence which you maintain Phi. As for the maner of his being there it forceth not much so you grant him to be really and verily present Theo. His presence there can do you litle good except the manner of his presence be likewise expressed and auouched by the places which you would bring Phi. If he be present ergo the substance of his flesh is present and that must needs be corporally locally coÌ„prised in the formes of bread wine Theo. What father saith so besides your selues Phi. They al say he is preseÌ„t Theo. And so do we Phi. In words you say it but when you come to the push you deny the truth and effect of his presence Theo. Wee do not looke you should vnderstand vs that vnderstand not your selues You haue framed of your own heades a certaine maner of Christes presence in the supper without the direction or consent of any learned or auncient father and that of al others the grossest and absurdest that could be deuised and nowe you no sooner heare the name of Christes body or blood in the mysteries but you straightway grow to a speciall conceite that your reall and carnall presence is there confirmed and confessed And this made your builders of Babel as they posted through the Fathers to note euery place and person that did but mention The body of Christ as a witnes for Transubstantiation where if it woulde haue pleased you and your fellowes to haue weighed the rules and cautions of the fathers together with their speaches and exhortatioÌ„s not to haue hunted after your owne fansies in their phrases but marked remeÌ„bred their instructioÌ„s how they would be takeÌ„ vnderstood wheÌ„ they speak of the christiaÌ„ mysteries you should haue saued a great deale of labor which now you should haue saued a great deale of labour which nowe you haue spent to no purpose gained securitie from this difficultie which hath sâ—tted your schooles and churches with a most pernicious and yet a monsterous error Phi. And wee say that you bee so blinded with presumption and rebellion against the Church of God that you will not yeelde to all the fathers that euer wrate of this matter since Christes time but because they nowe and then speake of signes and figures you turne all to tropes and metaphores as if neither Christ himselfe nor any of his Apostles or their successors the Godly teachers and Pastours of his church had euer spoken properly or plainely of this sacrament but al in clouds and riddles such as neither Priest nor people that should come after could possibly conceiue and none to this day had vnderstood till you came lately to trouble the world with heresie and inâ—quitie Theo. Take your pleasures your tongues bee your owne who can tame them if you will not containe them You haue learned of your fathers to whet them like swordes and to smite with them and to shoote foorth your arrowes euen bitter wordes but the mouth that rageth with lies slanders as the wise man forwarneth destroyeth the soule and in the meane time your errors are nothing diminished or excused by your taunts or teeth-gawles As touching the matter it selfe Sacraments of their owne nature and by their first and chiefe erection are visible signes of inuisible graces so that if they be no signes they bee no sacraments and though the signes must bee diligently distinguished from the thinges yet for good causes in teaching and writing do the signes beare the names of the things them selues whose signes they are in so much that no father speaking or writing of the bread or wyne after they be once made sacraments giueth them any other
by their own words to teach more than idle signes or ONLY figures in the Lords supper because together with the name goe the vertâ—es and effects of Christes flesh bloud vnited in manner of a Sacrament to the visible signes And this their assertion neither troubleth our Doctrine nor strengthneth your error Againe these writers may very well say the Sacraments of the Gospell BE NO FIGVRES but TRVETH IT SELFE in that respect as figures bee taken for samplers of things to come Such were the figures of the law which did premonstrat the coÌ„ming of christ in flesh ceased at his coÌ„ming And so the mysteries of the Lords table were not figures of things expected but euidences of the truth there sitting in persoÌ„ the next day to be nailed to the crosse therby to fulfil abolish al figures our sacrameÌ„ts are now not signes of farther promises but memorials of his mercies alredy performed Do this saith christ not in figure of an other truth to come but in remeÌ„brance of me which am come for memorie you know stretcheth only to things past and doone and in this sense the letter may bee safely pressed and your carnall conueyance nothing relieued I find a third cause that might induce them to force the letter in this sort yet no way confirming your grosse supposall which is this When the Greeke church fell at variance for Images they which held that Christ ought not to be figured after the likenes of our bodies amongest other reasons alleadged this for one that the Lord at his Supper for a true and effectuall Image of his incarnation chose the whole substance of bread not any way like the proportion of a man lest it should occasion Idolatry The defenders of Images whose side Damascene tooke pressed with this obiection durst not flee to your annihilation of the substance of bread and adoration of the Sacrament with diuine honour which no doubt they would haue doone with great triumph had those two points of your Doctrine beene then counted catholike but yeelding and by their silence confessing that the substance of bread remayned in the supper and was not adored for so the contrarie part opposed at length for very pure neede came to this shift that the mysticall bread was not ordained to resemble and figure Christs humane nature nor so called by christ at his maundie who said not this is a figure of my body but my body nor a figure of my bloud but my bloud and when Basil and Eustathius were produced affirming the bread and wine to be figures and resemblances of Christs flesh and bloud the Patrones of Images replied that was spoken alwaies before neuer after consecration Wherefore Damascene first beganne this myncing and straining the wordes of Christ not to build on them any reall or corporall conuersion of the bread into the flesh of christ but in fauour of his artifical pictures and Images he could by no meanes abide that the mysteries should after consecration be called Images and figures of Christs bodie The next that traced this path after Damascene was Epiphanius not that auncient and learned Bishoppe of Cyprus but a pratling Deacon in the bastard Councell of Nice whose furious and fanaticall answer to the Councel of Constantinople that made this obiection declareth more tongue than witte more face than learning Christ did not say take ye eat ye the Image of my bodie Reade whiles thou wilt saith hee thou shalt neuer find that either the Lord or his Apostles or the Fathers called that vnbloudie Sacrifice which the Priest offereth AN IMAGE Thus doth he braie foorth defiance to the whole worlde without trueth without shame For Chrysostome saith If Iesus were not once dead whose image and signe is this Sacrifice This Sacrifice is an image and samplar of that Sacrifice And Gelasius Surely the IMAGE and resemblance of the bodie and bloud of Christ is celebrated in the action of the mysteries We must therefore so thinke of the Lord Christ himselfe as we professe and obserue in his IMAGE And likewise Theodoret. Ortho. The mysticall signes which are offered to god by his Priests whereof doest thou call them signes Eranist Of the body blood of the Lord. Ortho It is very well saide Conferre then the image with the paterne and thou shalt see the likenes Dionysius calleth it both an image and a figuratiue sacrifice Nazianzene excusing himselfe How should I saith he presume to offer vnto God that externall sacrifice the image of the great mysteries Clemens Offer you in your churches the image of the royall body of Christ. Macarius In the Church are offered breade and wine the images of his flesh and blood The 〈◊〉 â—aâ—hers keepe the same word the same sense Ambrose In the law was a shadow in the Gospel is an image in heauen is the trueth Before was offered a lambe or a calf now Christ is offred here in an image there in truth where he intreateth his father as an aduocate for vs. AusteÌ„ Christ gaue an image of his burnt offering to be celebrated in the church for a remembrance of his passion The rest say the like but what neede we farther refutation of so ridiculous and vnshamefast a bragge such causes such councels such poppets such Proctors The very children in the church of God knowe that the diuine mysteries by the generall definition of a Sacrament be visible signes of inuisible graces and as Augustine interpreteth the word Sacramentum id est sacrum signum a Sacrament that is a sacred signe So that vnlesse they be signes they can possibly be no sacraments neither sacraments nor signes can they be without or before coÌ„secration which this stout champion had not yet learned therfore his verdict in matters of religion except his cunning were greater may be wel refused As Damasene and your prating Epiphanius were more than 700. yeares after Christ so Theophilact and Euthymius are farre younger The first of them was Bishoppe of the Bulgarians who were conuerted to the faâ—eth 868. yeares after Christ the second your owne chronologie placeth after Gracian and Lombard 1100. yeares short of Christ. Were then these later Grecians wholy with you what gaine you by them If you woulde oppose them to Tertullian Origen Cyprian Austen Gelasius Thedorete others of purer times and sounder iudgements you could winne nothing by that bargaine the choice were soone made which to take which to leaue but in deede you do them wrong to returne them for transsubstantiators they neuer knew what it ment They say the mysteries of the Lords table be not only figures but haue the truth annexed No figures of grace differed but seales of mercy perfourmed in Christ and inioyed of vs no called figures or images of Christes flesh after consecration but bearing as well the names as the fruits and effects of the things themselues whose
matter Paulus Diaconus de gestis Rom. li. 8. in Leo. The Bishop of Rome depriued not Leo the thirde of his temporalities Regino in anno Dom. 655. Blondus decadis 1. lib. 10. This was a rebellion of the souldiers and not a depriuation of the Popes The Pope durst not opeÌ„ly be seene to take their partes howsoeuer he priuatly incensed or fauored this tumult Naucleâ—us generat 25. Platina in Gregorie 2. This made the Germanes and Graecians impute this rebellion to the Bishop of Rome perhappes not without cause if all his priuate packing had bin knowen Sabel Ennead 8. lib. 7. The Italians were many waies greeued with the Graecians and that made them take light occasions to reuolt Aeneas Sylu. in Decad. BloÌ„d. lib. 10. Decad. 1. The Pope calleth Leo most religious Lord the last yeare of his life Auen lib. 3. annalium fol. 289. IbideÌ„ fol. 291. Marianus in annis 727. 741. The Bishop of Rome did not then take vpoÌ„ him to be the deposer of Princes This proueth rebellion of the people against their Prince if the Iesuites will but it concerneth not the Popes censures The Defence cap. 5. The diuisioÌ„ of the Empire The Empire was not deuided for any defect in religion Synod Nicenae 2. actio 2. Ibidem epist. Adrian ad Constant Imperat. Iren. matrem eius The Pope coÌ„fesseth the church of Rome to be the Greeke Emperours in the seconde Nicene Synode and after that councel was no change of religion in Greece The Empire was diuided by the publike decree of the Romane state and not by the Popes keyes Platina in Leone 3. Blondus Decadis 2. lib. 1. Nauâ—l volum 3 generatio 27. in anno 800. Sabel ennead 8. lib. 8. Auen annal boior lib. 4. fol. 344. Sigeber in ann 801. The Romanes pretended the wickednes of Irene to be the cause why they forsooke the Graecians Otho Frisingen lib. 5. cap. 29. Aeneas Syluius de authoritate Romani Imperij cap. 9. A second cause pretended for the diuision of the Empire The indignity which the Romans conceiued against Irenes vsurpation crueltie The diuision of the Empire maketh nothing for the Popes depriuing of Princes Manie realms fell from the Greeke Empire before the Romanes Bloud Decad. 1. lib. 10. Vppon what occasion the Empire was diuided by the report of their owne stories The Pope him-selfe pretendeth not religion in this consultation Helpe sought from the king of France by the common assent of the people of Rome Sabel ennead 8. lib. 8. Nauel volum 3. generat 26. anno 753. Blond Decad. 1. lib. 1. The Pope had his secrete purposes in labouring the diuision of the Empire The Iesuites by this may proue the Romanes to be rebels if they lift they can not proue the Pope to be the disposer of kingdoms See Zonaras annalium lib. 3. The Grecians were fallen to catching and fighting for the Scepter before the Romanes shranke from them The Grecians depriued Irene as vsurping the scepter The Pope by right of his keyes had naught to doe with the Romane Empire The people had more to do with translating the Empire than the Pope Platina foully ouerseen in the translatioÌ„ of the empire Plat. in Greg. 3. Nauâ— volum 2. generatio 25. anno 725. Volum 2. generatio 25. Sabel ennead 8. lib. 8. Habetur Auentin li. 3. fol. 888. Blondus Decad. 1. lib. 10. Sabellic ennead 8. lib. 8. Platina in Gregorio 3. * Suprà fol. 414. Plat. in Greg. 3. Platina contradicteth all other stories * Sigebertus Zonar Cuspinian Sabel ennead 8. lib 8. Much shuffling in popish writers about the diuision of the empire Philip Childerike depriued Caus. 15. quaest 6. ¶ alius Plat. in Zach. 1. Frisingen lib. 5. cap. 22. Wel the Pope might make a packe for the deposition of Childerike but his keyes were then of no such power as to depose Princes Caus. 15. quaest 6. ¶ alius Sabell eâ—nead 8. lib. 8. The germans consulted the Pope whether it were lawfull for theÌ„ to depose the Prince or not Blondus Decad. 1. lib. 10. The whole nation deposed Childerik Nauc generat 26. Caus. 15. quaest 6. ¶ Alius gloss ibidem in ver Deposuit The deposing of Childerike to make Pipin king of FraÌ„ce had a further reach than euerie man saw The Pope and Pipin diuided the west parts of the worlde betweene them Auen lib. p. 299 Zacharies answere to the German Legates This Pope claimeth no power to depose Princes but supposeth it to be lawfull for any realm to prouide themselues of a fit king Rom. 13. Ieroboam the ten tribes had Gods warrant for their reuolt and so had not the Germanes when they chose Pipine When princes are vnfit for the regiment of their people their own Realmes and not the Pope must haue care of that defect Extreeme follie and frensie be iust causes to remoue Princes from bearing the sworde The last of Pipines race deposed for a bedlem Regino lib. 2. anno 887. Euag. lib. 5. c. 11 Blond Decad. 1. lib. 10. Naucl. volum 3. gener 26. Sabel ennead 8. lib. 8. Gag li. 3. in Carolo Martel Vrss ergens in anno 753. Regino lib. 2. anno 753. The Iesuites must proue that the Pope may dispence with a lawful oth The staggering of their stories make many men thinke that Childerike was no foole * Auent lib. 3. fol. 293. Nau volum 3. generatio 26. anno 750. Frising lib. 5. cap. 13. This power of the Marshal ouer the King made Pipin aspire to the crown Beda de sex aetatibus mundi Regino lib. 1. in anno 648. Marianus in Philippico Frisingens lib. 5. cap. 15. Vrspergens in anno 713. Blondus decadis 1. lib. 10. Nauc volum 2. gener 23. Sabel ennead 8. lib. 7. Sigebert in anno 712. Mo examples than these they haue not for a 1000. yeares after Christ. The eldest of the Germane Emperours that were offered depriuation by the Pope was Henrie the 4. Lewes the 3. was not deposed Marian. in Lodouic 3. Sabel ennead 9. lib. 1. This Lewes was not deposed Marian. in Lodouic â—3 Blondus Decad. 2. lib. 2 Marian. in Lodouic filio Arnulph Platina in Benedict 4. Martinus in Arnulph Plat. in Formos This Lewes was neuer crowned The last of Pipines line deposed for a mad man Blond decad 2. lib. 2. Regino lib. 2. anno 888. Blond vt supra Italy forsooke the Germans choose to themselues two kinges of their owne Regino lib. â— anno 888. Seditions and inuasions made the Romanes glad after 60. yeares to submit theÌ„selues againe to the Germanes Regino lib. 2. anno 896. Decad. 2. lib. 2 Blond Decad. â— lib 2. An other change of the Empire but not by the Popes keyes Otho Frisingen li. 6. ca. 9. 10. The Romanes were no losers by often cutting the Empire in peeces The Germans and Italians differ in their reckonings Lewes the son of Boso was not depriued by the Pope Otho FrisingeÌ„s lib.
word as by his sacrameÌ„ts * Hier. in Psal. 147. The flesh of Christ is eateÌ„ more truely in his worde than in the sacraments * De Cons. dist 2. § vt quid paras August de ciui 〈◊〉 21. ca. 25. No such words are found in Chrysostoms Liturgie The woordes may be there yet not spoken to the sacrament a Pag. 21. l. n. 12 pag. 463. lin 11. b Pa. 452. li. 30. The Iesuites bid vs see the fathers but they doe not tell vs what we shall finde there It is not enough to will vs to see the fathers they must saie to what end they alledge them Chrysostome praieth to Christ in heauen not to the sacrameÌ„t * Liturg Chrys. Ibidem He woulde haue Christ behold the people from heauen not from the sacrament Mat. 18. Mat. 28. How Christ is present with vs. August in Iohan tract 50. His diuinitie is present with vs. Idem Ibidem His humanity present with vs manie waies though not in substance The Rhe. test pag. 453. The auncient Church did exactlie distinguish the sacrament from Christ. a De Catech. rudibus cap. 26. b De Baptis lib. 3. cap. 10. c Ambr. de Sacrament li. 4. cap. 3. d Orig. in 15. Matt. The whole Church cried on the people to lift vp their harts e Concil Nice * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth in as well as on f August in Iohan tract 50. Christ is both seene and touched by faith g Ambr. in Luc. li. 6. ca. 8. de filia princ Synag vesiâ—â—ci h Chrys. in 1. Cor. hom 24. * Ibidem Christ is on the table because his death is solemnized in the mysteries on the table i Colos. 3. k Phil. 3. Theod. dial 2. Not one of the fathers which they bring speaketh of the externall sacrament saue onelie Theodoret The mysticall signes must be adored but not with diuine honor These men caÌ„ plaie with shadowes verie pretilie The mysticall tokens remaining in their former substance must be adored Theod. Dial. 2. If they will adore the substance of breade Theodorets wordes will helpe them forward but not otherwise Adored is sometimes as much as â—eueâ—enced De cons. dist 3. § venerabiles in glossa ¶ cultu The Iesuits authorities for adoration of the Sacrament prooue no such thingâ— The reall presence This is my bodie doth not infer the reall presence Not the words but the exposition of the wordes is the thing that we striue for The Iesuites maie soone bring a thousand authorities for this point and not one to the purpose The papists in this question thinke to conquere with number if not with strength of places The papists beap vp places for their reall presence by hundreths not one to the purpose It were more wisdome for them to vndeâ—staÌ„d what they alledge than to alledge they know not what We striue not for Christs presence in the mysteries but for the manner of his presence The presence which the Iesuits hold the fathers neuer heaâ—d of Garetius Vernierus and the rest if a father do but name the body of Christ bring him in by and by for a witnes on their side and then they muster them by hundreths * You turne all fâ—â—m the thing themselues to the signes that is the cause of your error a Psalm 64. b Ierem. 18. Wisd. 1. These â—wo rules must be obserued in reading the fathers touching this matter els we shall infinitely erre To mistake the signes for the thinges themselues must needes bread a monsterous error Aâ—l their allegaâ—â—ns are answered with theâ—e two obseruations The literall prâ—ssing of those wordes is the gâ—ound of alâ— their error Christ did make the bread a God but added grace to the signe that it might becom a sacrament If bread be not made the sonne oâ— God then sure the bread is not made Christ. If the breade be Christ it must needs be made Christ for before it was not Christ. Christ doth not saie this is chaunged for or with my bodie but this is my bodie If the breade be Christ ergo it is God for he is God THIS in Christs words must needes note somewhat This must bee this somwhat and not this nothing The Iesuits be loath to tell vs what is meÌ„t by this in the wordes of Christ. This indeede is the right literall sense of our sauiours wordes and since that is apparently false the figuratiue sense must take place Matth. 26. The connexion of the gospell reâ—erreth THIS to the bread in the wordes of Christ. THIS of it selfe inferreth nothing and therefore must be guided by the circumstances of the text a 1. Cor. 11. b 1. Cor. 10. a 1. Cor. 11. Saint Paul in plaine speach ioynethâ— THIS to the bread Al the fathers referre THIS to the bread c Iust. Apol. 2. d Tertul. aduer Iedaeos e Idem li. 4. contra MarcioneÌ„ f De cons. dist 2. § qui maÌ„ducas g Cypr. de vnctio Chrismat h Iren. lib. 4. cap. 34. i Idem li. 4. c. 57 k Hier. ad Hedibiam quaest 2. l Athan in 1. Cor. cap. 11. m Epiph. in Anchorato n Cyril catechis mystag 4. o Theod. â—ial â— The Iesuites loose all hope of their transsubstaÌ„tiatioÌ„ if THIS in the wordes of Christ do not note the bread p De canâ— disâ— 2. § ante benedictioâ—eâ— Glâ—ssa ibidem q Gerson contr Floretum li. 4. r Gard. contra diabolic sophist s In his Marc. Antoni Consr. t Occam in 4. sâ—ntent dist 13. u De cons. dist 2. § timâ—rem Glossa ibidem Then haue the Iesuits small hold in the literall sense of Christs words for their transsubstantiatioÌ„ That this is the right purport of Christs words it cannot be doubted So long as the letter is true we maie not flie to figures but if that be false we kill our soules except we â—lie to figures * Aug. de dâ—â—tr Christiana lib. 3 cap. 10. When the speach must be figuratiue The literall coherence of these wordes this bread is my bodie is impossible blasphemous and barbarous To reprooue the misconsterer is to reuerence the speaker z De cons. dist 2. § panis est in Altari Glossa ibidem Not possible by their owne confession that breade should be the bodie of Christ. To saie that bread is christ in proper speach is horrible blasphemie To eate flesh in proper speach is against nature and far from all pietie a August contra aduers. legis Propheta lib. 2. cap. 9. b Idem contra eundem lib. 1. cap. 14. c Cyril in Iohan. lib. 4. cap. 22. d August de doctr Christ. lib. 3. cap. 16. To eate flesh is an hainous act ergo Christs words are figuratiue This is S. Austens reason if the Iesuites can reâ—ure him let them Where Christ said this bread is my bodie the Iesuits say this must be no bread before it can be my bodie It is as great blasphemie for the bread to be turned into Christ as to be Christ.
molten Images And they brake downe in his sight the Altars of Baalim and hee caused to cut downe the images that were on them he brake also the groues and the karued molten images and stampt them to powder and strewed it vpō the graues of them that had sacrificed on them Also hee burnt the bones of the Priestes vpon their Altars and purged Iudah and Ierusalem And when hee had destroyed the Altars and cut downe all the idols throughout the lande of Israell he returned to Ierusalem Then the king sent and gathered all the Elders of Iudah and Ierusalem And the king went vp to the house of the Lord and all the men of Iudah and inhabitantes of Ierusalem and the Priestes and the Leuites and all the people from the greatest to the smallest and hee read in their eares all the wordes of the booke of the couenant that was found in the house of the Lord. And the king stood by his Piller and made a couenant before the Lord to walke after the Lord and to keepe his commandementes and his statutes with all his heart with all his soule that hee would accomplish the wordes of the couenant written in that booke And hee caused al that were found in Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand to the couenant So Iosias tooke awaie all the abominations out of all the countries that pertained to the children of Israell and compelled all that were founde in Israell to serue the Lord their God al his dayes they turned not backe from the Lord God of their fathers Moreouer Iosiah kept a Passouer vnto the Lord in Ierusalem and hee appointed the Priestes to their charges and said to the Leuites Serue now the Lord your God and his people Israell prepare your selues by the houses of your fathers according to your courses as Dauid the king of Israell hath written and according to the writing of Salomon his sonne And stand in the sanctuarie according to the diuision of the families of your brethren Kill the Passouer and sanctifie your selues and prepare your brethren that they may doe according to the word of the Lord by the hande of Moses Thus the seruice was prepared and the Priestes stood in their places also the Leuites in their orders according to the kinges commaundement So all the seruice of the Lord was prepared the same day to keepe the Passouer to offer burnt offeringes vpon the Altar of the Lord according to the commaundement of king Iosiah Nehemias though he were no king but a captaine sent frō king Artaxerxes yet he discerned resisted the Prophetes that would haue put him in feare was the first that sealed the couenant between God the people with an oth to walke in the law of God and to obserue all the commaundementes of the Lord. And he displaced Tobiah an Ammonite whom Eliashib the high Priest had receiued and lodged within the court of the house of God and cast out all the vessels of the house of Tobiah and commaunded them to clense the chambers for the vessels of the house of God And reproued the rulers for that the house of God was forsaken the Sabbaoth day broken assembling the Leuites singers setting them their places charging the Leuites to clense themselues and to sanctifie the Sabbaoth daie And when he saw Iewes that maried strange wiues he rebuked them and cursed them and smote certain of them tooke an oth of them by God that they should not mary with strangers And one of the sonnes of Ioiadah the sonne of Eliashib the high Priest maried the daughter of Sanballat the Horonite but Nehemiah chased him awaie and clensed the Priestes and Leuites from all strangers and appointed them their courses euerie one in his office There needeth no great skill to set this togither To remoue idols all abominations out of the land to enter a couenāt with God to walke in his waies to proclaime fastes an d make publike praiers to sanctifie the Temple and celebrate the Passouer to seeke and serue God according to his law bee matters ecclesiasticall not temporall and yet in the same cases the godly kinges of Iudah commaunded and compelled all that were found in Iudah Priest and Prophet man and woman to stand to that order which they tooke for the better accomplishing of those their interprises Acknowledge that right and power in Christian Princes at this day to medle with matters of Religion which the Scriptures report and commend in kinges of religious and famous memorie we presse you no farther If you sticke to graunt so much others will not stick to distrust the soundnesse of your doctrine notwithstanding the smoothnesse of your tongues and loftynesse of your spirites wherewith you thinke to compasse and quaile kingdomes Phi. The kinges of Iudah did that which they did at the motion of the Prophetes and direction of the Priestes Theo. You shun that which you shal not auoide Wee reason not who moued and aduised but who decreed and commaunded these thinges to be done Priestes or Princes The Scriptures in plaine termes saie that Princes DECREED APPOINTED COMMANDED them to be done Contradict the wordes if you dare Take from Asa Iehosaphat Ezechias Iosias the king of Niniueth and others the Princely power which they shewed due praise which they merited in medling with these matters impugne the words whereby God expresseth approueth their doings see whether the consciēces of all good men will not detest abhor your wilfull impietie Phi. The Scripture saith in deede they commaunded appointed decreed these thinges but no doubt they were directed by Prophetes and other spirituall Pastours what they should do Theo. What if they were Doth that hinder their authoritie Princes in ciuill affaires are guided and directed by learned and wise Counsellers doe they therefore not commaund in temporall matters neither Or finde you no difference betweene counselling and commaunding Phi. Againe these Princes were before the comming of Christ when as yet there was no supreme Pastour ouer the whole Church Theo. There was an high Priest ouer the twelue Tribes with surer and better authoritie than your holy father can shewe for him-selfe All Israell by Gods owne mouth were referred to the iudgement of the Priestes and Leuites and not to decline from the thing which they speake The man saith God that will do presumptuouslie not harkning vnto the Priest that standeth before the Lord to minister that man shall die This was their commission yet this notwithstanding the kings of Iudah commaunded both Prist and people for matters of religion And so did the Christian Emperours after the comming of Christ for eight hundred yeares that wee shewe commaund both Bishoppes and others yea the Bishoppe of Rome no lesse than others in causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall The particulars I noted before The Lawes were publike
persons for that is truely and properly catholike By this rule your erecting adoring of images in the church is not catholike For first it is prohibited by gods law where the text goeth against you the gloze caÌ„not helâ— you If there be no precept for it in the word of god in vaine do you seek in the church for the catholike sense and interpretation of that which is no where found in the Scriptures If it bee not Propheticall nor Apostolical it cannot be catholike nor ecclesiasticall Againe how hath this beene alwaies in the church which was first decreed 780. yeares after Christ It is too yong to bee catholike that began so late you must go neerer Christ his Apostles if you wil haue it catholike or ancient Thirdly al places persons did not admit the decrees of that couÌ„cell For besides Africa Asia the greater which neuer receiued them the churches of England France Germanie did contradict refute both their actions reasons And in Greece it selfe not long before a Synod of 330. Bishops at Constantinople condemned aswel the suffering as reuerencing of images Phi. The most part of this that you say is false the rest we litle regard so loÌ„g as we be sure the church of Rome stood fast with vs. Theo. Al that I said is true as for the church of Rome she can make nothing catholike That the church of England detested that 2. councell of Nice Roger Houeden that liued 400. yeares agoe witnesseth Charles the king of France sent ouer into England the Actes of a Synod sent him from Constantinople Where out alas are found many vnseemely things contrary to the true faith specially for that it is there confirmed with the general assent of all the East teachers to wit of 300. Bishops moe that images ought to be adored the which the church of God vtterly detesteth Against the which Albinus wrote an epistle maruelously grouÌ„ded on the autority of the diuine scriptures caried it with the said Synodical acts in the name of our english Bishops princes to the K. of France Charles two yeares after called a great Synod of the Bishops of Fraunce Italie and Germanie at Franckford where the 2. councell of Nice was reiected and refuted Phi. Nay the councell of Constantinople against images was there reuersed and explosed Theo. Your friendes haue done what they could to make that seeme likely and many of your stories run that way for life but the worst is the men that liued and wrate in that verie age doe marre your plaie Regino saith Pseudo synodus Graecorum quam pro adorandis imaginibus fecerant à Pontificibus reiecta est The false Synode of the Graecians which they made for defence of the worshipping of images was reiected by the Bishops assembled at Franckford vnder Charles Hincmarus Archbishop of Remes then lyuing when these thinges were in freshe memorie saieth thus of Charles his Councell The seuenth general councell so called by the Graecians in deed a wicked councell touching images which some would haue to be broken in peeces some to be worshipped was kept not long before my time by a number of Bishops gathered togither at Nice and sent to Rome which also the Bishop of Rome directed into France Wherfore in the raigne of Charls the great the Sea Apostolike willing it so to bee a generall Synode was kept in Germany by the conuocation of the said Emperour and there by the rule of the Scriptures doctrine of the fathers the false councel of the Graecians was confuted vtterly reiected Of whose confutation tâ—ere was a good big booke sent to Rome by certaine Bishops from Charles which in my yong yeares I read in the Palace Vrspergensis hath bin vnder the file of some monkish deprauer as many other writers fathers haue bin For in him you haue razed out the name of the citie of Nice put in CoÌ„stantinople to make men beleeue the Synod of FraÌ„ckford condemned not the 2. Nicene councel that setled adoration of images but an other of Constantinople that banished images Vrspergensis saieth The Synod which not long before was assembled vnder Irene Constantine her sonne in Constantinople called by them the seuenth generall councell was there in the councell of Franckford reiected by them all as void and not to be named the 7. or any thing else Here some foolish forgerer hath added these words in Constantinople whereas it is euident the councel vnder Irene and Constantine her sonne was kept at Nice not at Constantinople Hincmarus that liued in the time of Charles and read the booke it selfe of the Synode of FraÌ„ckford when it was first made saith the Bishops assembled in Germany by Charles vtterly reiected refuted the councel of Nice called the seuenth generall councell The very same words at Constantinople are in the actes of the councell of FraÌ„kford as LaureÌ„tius Surius saith though very falsly for though that I find in the booke it selfe contrary to the plaine words in many places and namely in the 4. booke 13. chapter where they are refelled from comparing themselues with the 1. Nicene councell because they were assembled in the same city so li. 4. ca. 24. But if the words had bin conueied in as they are not except Surius copie be framed by Surius himself to verifie his own saying what proofe is this that the Synod of Franckford neuer deâ—reed against adoration of Images but rather with it as that mouthie Frier obserueth where the reasons and authorities of the 2. Nicene councell for adoring images are truely and fully refuted throughout those foure bookes And his conclusion that wee haue forged those bookes conueied them into the Popes library where they ly written in auncient characters as the keeper of the Popes library confesseth is like the rest and not vnlike himselfe who careth not what he writeth so it serue his humour and helpe his cause For otherwise who that were master of himselfe would suppose it easier for vs to forge foure whole bookes in Charles name and to write them in auncient handes and thrust them into the Popes librarie and into many other churches and Abbaies and no man spie it than for you hauing the bookes so many hundreth yeares in your keeping to put in this one word Constantinople And if our lucke were so good to forge so neere the Popes nose and not be descried who forged Hinâ—marus Regino Houeden Vrspergensis Adon Auentine and others that testifie the Councell of Frankford refuted the false Synode which the Graecians kept Pro odorandis imaginibus For the adoring of images If you were so negligent as to suffer so many to be forged against you and laide in your libraries you not find it how iust cause haue wee to perswade our selues that you would winke with both eies when others should be corrupted to make for your
purpose Phi. Many you know report for vs that Charles and his councell condemned the breakers of images and a number of your owne side confesse the same Theo. In stories we must not respect the number vehemencie but the antiquitie and sinceritie of the authors Two hundreth that liued long after were not acquainted with the deedes themselues can not counteruaile two that liued in the same age and had the full perusing of their actes Againe your later writers were all addicted to images and therefore they would not acknowlege that euer the councell of Franckford condemned the councell of Nice for adoring images Lastly it is not altogether a lie when they say the councell of Franckford refused the councell of Constantinople For where the councell of Constantinople said it was idolatrie to haue them and the councell of Nice defined it lawfull to worship them the councell of Franckford as Hincmarus confesseth liked neither but held it a thing indifferent to haue them adiudged it a meere impiety to worship them Phi Then hauing of images you graunt was catholike though the worshipping of them in some places were not so taken Theo. The hauing of images was neuer catholike and the worshipping of them was euer wicked by the iudgement of Christes church Phi. At this time the West church did not gainesay the hauing of them Theo. The West church at this time vsed them only as ornamentes and monumentes for the ruder sort to learne the liues and deathes of ancient vndoubted Martyrs but if you forget not your selfe you bee 800. yeres too short of catholik euen then by the churches of EnglaÌ„d France Spaine and Germanie was the worshipping of images detested and refuted as contrary to the christian faith Phi. By worshipping and adoring of images we doe not meane that godly honor should be giuen to them but only a kinde of external dutie reuerence with the gesture of the body as kneeling kissing censing religious holding vp of eyes and handes before them with such like signes of outwarde submission Theo. Neither do I thinke that Adrian the Bishop of Rome or the Grecians were so blasâ—hemous brutish idolaters that they decreed diuine honor to dead sensles stocks though your SchoolemeÌ„ not long before our age came to that grosse â—ilâ—hy doctrine salued it with a vaine translatioÌ„ of the honor that was done to the image as passing from the image to the principall it selfe represented by the image But the Grecians I thinke ment an externall regard reuerence such as is giuen to the sacred vessels bookes elementes that are vsed in baptisme at the Lords Supper For those be their owne comparisons though their words be adoration veneration yet that externall corporall honor giuen to images the West Bishops abhorred as neither catholike nor christiaÌ„ and the church of Christ long before them condemned as hereticall Gregory the first 200. yeares before Charles called the councel of FraÌ„ckford thought it not amisse to haue painted histories suffred in the church but in no wise the pictures to be worshipped Your brotherhood saith he to Serenus Bishop of Massilia seeing certaine worshippers of images brake the said images and cast theÌ„ out of the church The zeale which you had that nothing made with hands should be worshipped we praise but we thinke you should not haue broken those images For painting is therefore vsed in churches that they which are vnlearned may by sight read that in the walles which in bookes they caÌ„not Your brotherhood should therefore haue spared the breaking of theÌ„ yet restrained the people froÌ„ worshipping them that the rude might haue had how to come by the knowledge of the story yet the people not sinne in worshipping the picture Painted stories Gregory thought might be tolerated in the church for the simple to learne the deathes and martyrdoms of many Saints which in bookes they could not but as for worshipping them he confesseth the people should sinne in doing it and the Bishop did well in keeping them from it And treating in an other place of the same matter he saith The children of the church now disperced are to be called togither and taught by the testimonies of the sacred scriptures that nothing made with hands may be worshipped And so concludeth adoration of images by all meanes auoide S. Ambrose speaking of that crosse on which Christ was crucified saith Helena found the title worshipped the king not the wood surely for that is the error of the Gentiles and vanitie of the wicked S. Augustine requiring the Mâ—nichees to shew what one thing they could mislike in the catholik church Bring me not saith he such christians as either knowe not or keepe not the force of their profession Rake not after the rude sort which euen in true religion are intangled with superstition My selfe know many that are worshippers of tombes and pictures I warne you that you cease to speake euill of the catholike church by carping these mens maners whome the church her selfe condemneth and seeketh euery day to correct theÌ„ as vngracious children Marcellina is reckoned and detested as an heretike by Ireneus Epiphanius and Augustine for hauing the images of Christ and Paul in her closet and setting garlandes on their heades and burning incense to them Marcellina sayth Austen was of Carpocrates sect and worshipped the images of Iesu Paul Homere and Pythagoras with bowing her selfe burning incense So sayth Epiphanius Of this sect was Marcillina of Rome Shee made secretly the images of Iesu and Paul and Homere and Pithagoras and burned incense to theÌ„ worshipped theÌ„ And charging the whole sect of Carpocrates with the same fault he saith The heretikes called Gnostici Besides all this haue images painted with colours and some of gold and siluer which they say are the images of Iesu and made in the time of Pontius Pilate when Christ was conuersant amongst men These they keepe closely And so doth Ireneus also witnesse they all restrayning and adiudging it to be heresie and idolatry to cense bow to the image of Christ or Paul as wel as to the image of Homer or Aristotle Phil. Not so neither Theo. Yeas euen so This in manifest wordes is reckoned by these three fathers for a speciall point part of their wickednes as well as the worshipping of other Philosophers images Phi. Put you no distinction betweene the images of Christ other prophane persons Theo. The worshipping of either is heathenisme idolatry Phi. Call you the image of Christ an Idole Theo. Not vnlesse it be worshipped but if it be then is it an Idoll incense burnt vnto it is idolatrie Phi. How proue you that Theo. If the iudgement of christes church in accompting them heretikes for that act do not weigh heauie enough with you the law of God coÌ„firmeth the same Phi. Where The. You be