than you will grant that all particulars must be determined since then as Moses determines the dayes of separation for a legal uncleannesse why doth not the Gospel determine the separation â—oâ— spiritual uncleannesse Nay further consider Moses instituted no Church-Government in the way we use it for that of the Tribe of Levi and house of Aaron was only Typical and to wait on the Temple and the Worship to be performed there Beside which they had Synagogues all the Land over and wherever they had Colonies in the World and in these they had their Rabbies their Scribes and their Rulers and their chief Ruler of their Synagogues which read their Law performed such Worship as was not tyed to the Temple at Ierusalem and they inflicted Discipline upon offenders and these might have been of any Tribe not only of that of Levi and yet our Saviour never challengeth this but went in to the rulers of their Synagogues the like you finde done by his Apostles and they never declame against it as an humane invention Whence it must follow that you must grant either what they did was founded on divine tradition which no Christian will grant or that a form of Government was devised by men and yet no unlawful thing And if the Jews had such liberty certainly the Christian Church is at least more free as to these externals And after all since Christ is the Head of the World as well as of the Church why did not he determine the order of the one as well as of the other N. The odds is very great for his Church is dearer to him than all the world C. Why then doth he not determine how his Church should be governed as to the civil matter since Justice is a part of his Law as well as devotion and the civil peace I hope you will grant is more necessary to the very being of the Church than is order in Discipline and so it was determined in the old Law but yet it is left at liberty in the new And though I should grant the Church as Church is dearer to Christ then as they are men a foolish and childish nicety Yet a King though he looks most to what is dearest to him he will have his authority acknowledged in all his dominions whence it will with the same parity of reason follow that since Christ is the King of the earth there should be no Offices in it but of his appointment N. I never loved this carnal reason it is an enemy to Religion Our Ministers bring us to the Bible for every thing they say but you come on with your reason C. Truly you have good cause to be against reason for it and you cannot both prevail If by carnal reason you mean a sober examining things by the dictates of Nature see that you condemn not that which is indeed the voice of God in us and therefor is to be received And if you make this contrary to Religion you bring as great a stain upon Religion as an Atheist could devise But if by reason you mean little pittiful nibling with some ill understood and worse applied distinctions out of Aristotle and Ramus as is very frequent among you that is justly called vain Philosophy And for Scripture do not think they build surest upon it who are ever quoting it fastest the Devil did that and so do all Sects And thus if you can rightly weigh things I have said enough to convince you that in matters of Government the Church is at liberty But if you will still go to Scripture I can positively say though in it nothing amounts to a demonstration There are fairer likelihoods for Bishops from that of the Angels of the Churches than ever you shall find in it for Presbytery but I will not say more of this Next let me tell you how soon this Government was in the Church N. I will not deny tares sprung very early in Gods Husbandry but that will never convince me To the Law and to the Testimony for from the beginning it was not so C. You do well to possess your self with a prejudice against these Churches but think soberly whether is it likelier that those who lived so nigh the sacred time understood the mind of the Apostles better then we do at the fagg end of an thousand and six hundred years As also whether is it liker that the Church then alwayes in the fire of persecution was purer then she is now God bless me from the pride of comparing my self with these worthies who were honoured to convert the world and to die for the truth N. But Bishops were not in the two first Centuries as our Ministers say C. They are grossly ignorant or disingenuous who say so all History being against them Ignatius Epistles are plain Language The Apostolical Canons a work of very venerable antiquity at least the first 50 of them though none of theirs perhaps all over shew the difference was then betwixt Bishops and Presbyters particularly the 40. Can. The Presbyters and Deacons shall finish nothing without the Bishop's sentence For he is intrusted with the people of God and shall be required to give account of their souls And the same thing was also enjoyn'd Syn. Azel Can. 19. And in Cyprian's time it is undenied that their power was then well regulate and settled For though that great Saint and Martyr tells lib. 3. Epist. 10. That he had decreed in the beginning of his Bishoprick to do nothing without the advice of his Presbyters yet Ep. 9. of that book to Rogatian a Bishop who had asked his advice concerning an affront he had received from a Deacon he sayes that by his Episcopal vigour and authority of his Chair he had power presently to punish him And towards the end of that Ep. he sayes these are the beginnings of Hereticks and the rise and designs of Shismaticks to please themselves and contemn their Bishop with insolent pride And it is clear Presbyters at that time even in the Vacancy of a See did not judge themselves sufficiently impowred for Ecclesiastical administration by what the Presbyters and Deacons of Rome write to Cypr. lib. 2. Ep. 7. saying That since a Bishop was not at that time chosen in place of the deceased Fabian there was none to moderate all things amongst them who might with authority and advice take account of matters Sure they thought little of Presbyters being equal in power to their Bishop who write so of a Church wherein the Episcopal power might seem devolved on them But I believe few of you know these Writings In the Council of Nice speaking of the power of Metropolitans which was an additional thing to that of Bishops over Presbyters The Canon sayes Let the ancient Customs be in force Now how this excressing power should have crept into the whole Church and no mention when it came in no temporal Princes nor universal Councils to introduce it and that at a time of
without it holiness is but hypocrisie C. I acknowledge that if you speak of the fundamental Articles of our Faith But all truths are not of equal certainty nor of equal importance now it is a certain and important truth that there should be an unity in the Catholick Church which is not to be broken but upon a matter of greater certainty and weight N. One precious truth is worth all the world therefore I will not quite one truth for the love of all men Not a hoof said Moses C. If you were required to condemn or deny any thing you judged truth I confesse you ought to obey God rather than man But it is another case to quite the communion of the Church because they are not as you think in the truth unlesse that truth be of greater importance than is the Article of your Faith The Catholick Church and the communion of Saints And when you are as sure of your call to contend for these truths as Moses was of the will of God you may use his words Let me then examine you a little how do you know your opinions are truths N. Who can doubt of it are they not the cause and interest of Christ his Kingdom and Crown his glorious work to which we are all bound by the oath of God taken in the Covenant whereinto even the children unborn are oblidged C. If big words prove truths you are full of them But remember of whom the Apostle gives this Character they speak swelling words of vanity And there is no party but have the same language in their mouth these are fine contrivances to lead away silly women captive who would be ready to judge your blustering confidence an evidence of truth when a modester way of speaking is suspect of diffidence whereas in right scales the one looks like arrogant pride and the other like the modest Spirit of Jesus Christ. N. How can you deny that what is now cried down was the work of God C. I confesse it was so the work of God as the Prophet said is there any evil in the City and the Lord hath not done it but in the sense you take it it was as far from it as darknesse is from light N. How can you speak so was not sin strangely born down in our dayes C. I confesse you studied to represse some sins so did the Pharisees But remember the Apostle divides filthinesse in that of the flesh and of the Spirit and indeed the latter proves a much subtiller and stronger opposition to the Gospel than the former It is true some of these were repressed by you though I must add in a way scarce suitable to the Gospel but for other sins you were very gentle to them nay were guilty of them your selves for they mingled in all you did N. Now you begin to rail and I cannot endure to hear those glorious dayes so spoken of Is this the moderation you so much proâ—esse C. I love moderation as much as any can and declare to you once for all that I have no quarrel at any for their opinions in these matters nor shall I labour to disgrace the leaders of your party by searching into their private escapes a practice much used by you against us your mouthes being ever full of bitter reproaches against some of our way but it is directly contrary to the Spirit of Christ and his Gospel wherein we are put in mind to speak evil of no man I shall therefore from your publick and avowed actions and printed papers shew how far you are out of the way of God And first what think you of your rebellion this was the Soul of your whole work and your Covenant was a Bond to cement you in this N. Call you fighting for God and his Cause rebellion C. It is yet under debate whether it be the Cause of God Suppose it were shew me one place in either Testaments that warrands Subjects fighting for Religion you know I can bring many against it yea though the old dispensation was a more carnal and fiery one than the new one is yet when the Kings of Iudah and Israel made Apostacy from the living God into â—eathenish Idolatry some of the Kings of Iudah polluting the Temple of Ierusalem as did Ahaz and Mannasseh so that God could not be worshipped there without Idolatry yet where do we find the people resisting them or falling to popular Reformations Neither do the Prophets that were sent by God ever provoke them to any such courses And you know the whole strain of the New Testament runs upon suffering N. The law of nature teacheth us to defend our selves and so there is no need of Scripture for it C. This is marvelous dealing in other things you alwayes flee from reason as a carnal principle to Scripture but here you quite Scripture and appeal to it but it seems you are yet a stranger to the very design of Religion which is to tame and mortifie nature and is not a natural thing but supernatural Therefore the rules of defending and advancing it must not be borrowed from nature but grace The Scriptures are also strangely contrived since they ever tell us of suffering under persecution without giving your exception that we resist when we are in a capacity And I appeal to your conscience whether it be a likelier way to advance Religion fighting or suffering since a carnal man can do the one but not the other N. How can we neglect the interests of Christ and let them ruine when we are in a capacity to defend them C. If there were not a God who governs the World your reasoning might have force but do you think that God cannot maintain his own right but the wrath of man must work his righteousnesse nay we see the contrary for from the beginning till this day God hath made the sufferings of his people the chief mean of propagating Religion whereas fighting hath been ever fatal to it And Christ did begin the Gospel with his suffering though he could have commanded Legions of Angels for his defence N. Christ knew it was the Fathers will that he must suffer C. This shews how little you understand when you speak so are not Christs injunctions our rule Since then he forbade his Disciples to draw a sword for him with so severe a threatning as whosoever will draw the sword shall perish by the sword this must binde us and what he sayes to Pilate on this â—ead My Kingdom is not of this world c. is so plain language that I wonder how it doth not convince all I know there are some pitifull answers made to those places but they are so irrational that they deserve not a serious reply and I am not of an humour to laugh at them only take notice of this that if an ingenuous man speak plainly much more must the God of truth Judge then whether these unworthy glosses make Christ likeer a nibling Logician then the true
and faithfull witnesse N. Then you condemn our first reformation carried on by fighting C. Since you go to examples rather begin with the Ages that immediatly followed Christ in which for three hundred years the Gospel was preached and propagated by sufferings but never by fighting though their number enabled them to it and they were irritated by the cruellest provocations and persecutions And it is to be supposed that they who saw and conversed with the Apostles understood their meaning better than these who lived at so great a distance from them I acknowledge there was force used in our Reformation but so much the worse for that And you know the enemy sowes his tares even in that field wherein the Wheat is sowen But never alledge to me the president of men against the expresse Word of God N. What say you then to these who died sealing their opinion fighting for Religion with their blood C. You put me to a hard lock to rake amongst the ashes of the dead As for those who died I had that compassion for some of them that I could willingly have redeemed their lives at the rate of mine own And I doubt not but many sincerely followed their Conscience in it But I am far from thinking the better of the Cause because some died handsomly for it otherwise I should be reconciled to Atheism and all Heresies who want not their pretended Martyrs But I need go no further then England at His Majesties Restauration where the murderers of the late King died gallantly owâ—ing what they did as the Cause of God So the seal of a Martyr's blood is not alwayes the seal of God N. Well but why do you remember bygones We are now all good Subjects and do bless God for His Majesties Restauration and do pray for him more then you do C. May be so that he may be of your way but if that be not I doubt your love to him is very cool I do not remember bygones to bring an odium upon you but to shew that a course which was managed by a spirit of Rebellion was none of Gods As for your rejoycing at His Majesties Restauration I scarce believe it since you will not keep a day of Thanksgiving for it N. It is not that we scruple the thing but because you make it a holy day C. This is very nice for by holy day we mean â—ot that the twenty ninth of May is a more sacred time then other dayes but that the day shall be devoted to holy exercise N. This should not be enjoyned by the Magistrate but by the Church who ought only to order the worship of God C. I shall not against this alledge the commands of David and Solomon since you may alledge they were extraordinary persons but you cannot say that Esther and Mordecai were such who enjoyned the observation of Purim and call that Feast a good day and the odds betwixt holy and good is not very great And although there be no divine order for the Feast of Dedication yet our Saviour was at the Feast and in the Temple though you will not come to Church on the twenty ninth of May. N. Well then all you can charge upon us is a little disloyalty but for all that our way may be the Cause of God for even the Saints have their infirmities C. Truly this is so great a one that I dare pronounce none a Saint who hath been guilty of it till he repent of it But I am far from being at the end of your faults having but begun with this The next thing perswades me of your evil way is your cruelty and rigour Did you not force all to take the Covenant severely punishing such as would not And did you not cruelly persecute all those who opposed you Truly this hath so confirmed my aversion from your way that I hope never to be reconciled to this part of it N. That was a fault too and many of us are very sensible of it C. Let not my soul enter into the secrets of bloody men Your very Leaders who if they had known any thing of the meek spirit should have opposed these severities not only countenanced but drave them on and rejoyced in them And if they think it a fault how comes it that none of them offers to disclaim it Yea some of you in your confessions of sins and causes of wrath rather tax your courses of too great lenity N. Whoever may object that you may be silent for what severity have we felt how many Ministers are turned out and people oppressed for not owning you C. I must in so far justify the rigour you have met with as to show it is far short of yours People are required to do nothing but live peaceably and joyn in Worship whereas you made them swear to you and the Ministers are not made swear to maintain the present establishment and to root out the contrary as you did they are only required to concur in Discipline and to promise submission to Episcopacy N. Do you not wonder at my patience who hear you inveigh so bitterly against us but I let you see a Presbyterian can be calm I hope you have done C. Not yet indeed I am not trying your calmness but your conscience and what I speak is not to irritat but to convince you I shall next take notice of the great insolence and height was among you I speak not of personal pride though I coulâ— say enough on that Head I only tax your public actings What insolence was it to assume biâ— names of the godly party and the people of God â—nd to call your way The Cause and Kingdom oâ— Christ Whether looks this like the Pharisees anâ— Hypocrites or not And in this you were punished with your own weapons for the Protesterâ— wrung that from the rest of you and the Independants assumed it from you both N. I am sure we were the Godly Party compared to those we had to do with C. This bewrayes your arrogance though it were so you ought not to bear witness to your selves nor assume such titles Remember the Pharisee who said I thank the Lord that I am not like this Publican You know the loudest pretenders have not alwayes the justest title N. I hope now you have done with your scolding C. This is like all guilty persons who take every modest representing of their faults to them as scolding and bitterness so did the Jews use St. Paul It shews the sore or disease is desperate when the Patient cannot be touched I have not yet begun to scold but I have not done with admonishing Next How did your Leaders complain of Bishops their medling in matters of State and yet when the Scene turned how absolutely did they govern Church-men grew the advisers of all businesses Juntoes held in their houses And how impudently did the Church countermand the State Anno 1648. even in Civil matters as were the Levying of Armies
transcribed The authors who plead for this are only Courtiers Cannonists and Iesuits Now how are you not ashamed in a matter of such importance to symbolize with the worst gang of the Roman Church for the soberer of them condemn it yet fill heaven and earth with your clamours if in some innocenter things the Church of England seem to symbolize with them N. No you still retain the Papacy you only change the person from the Pope to the King whom you make head of the Church and swear to him in these termes C. This is so impudent a calumny that none but such as have a minde to reproach would use it which I shall clear by giving an account of the whole matter In England you know the Pope beside his general tyranny exercised a particular authority after King Iohn had basely resigned the Crown to him vide Matth. Paris ad An. 1213. When therefore the Reformation was introduced in England and the Papal yoke shaken off the oath of Supremacy was brought in to exclude all forreign jurisdiction and to reinstate the King in his civil authority over all persons and in all causes as well ecclesiastical as civil I confesse Henry the eight did directly set up a civil Papacy but you know the Reformation of England was never dated from his breach with the Bishop of Rome But the oath of Supremacy was never designed to take away the Churches intrinsick power Or to make that the power of Ordination giving Sacraments or Discipline flowed from the King to which he only gives his civil sanction and confirmation However because the words being general might suggest some scrouples they are clearly explained in an Act of Parliament of Queen Elizabeth and in one of the 39 Articles and more fully by the incomparable and blessed Bishop Vsher to whom for his pains King Iames gave thanks in a letter Now this Oath being brought from England to Scotland none ought to pretend scrouples since both the words in themselves are sufficiently plain and the meaning affixed to them in England is yet plainer And we having it from them must be understood to have it in their sense N. But this clearly makes way for Erastianism C. This is one of your mutinous Arts to find out long and hard names and affix them to any thing that displeaseth you In the Old Testament you find the Kings of Iudah frequently medling in Divine matters and the Sannedrim which was a civil court determined in all matters of Religion And you are very ignorant in History if you know not that the Christian Emperours still medled in matters of Religion The first general Councils were called by them as appears by their Synodical Acts and Epistles And by the accounts all the Historians give they also preceeded in the Councils so Constantine at Nice Theodose at Constantinople Earl Candidianus in name of Theodose the second at Ephesus and Martian at Chalcedon It s true in preceeding they only ordered matters but did not decide in them as particularly appears from the Commission given to Earle Candidianus inserted in the Acts of the Ephesin Council They also judged in matters of schisme so Constantine in the Donatist bussinesse even after it had been judged both by Miltiades and Marcus Bishops of Rome and Millan by the Synod of Arles and by the Council of Nice Yea the Code and Basilicks and the Capitolers of Charles the great shew they never thought it without their sphere to make lawes in Ecclesiastick matters The Bishops also were named by them or at least their elections were to be approven by them not excepting the Roman Bishop though he was the proudest pretender of all who after the overthrow of the Western Empire was to send to Constantinople or Ravenna to get his Election ratified and when the Western Empire was reasumed by Charles the great at Rome it was expresly provided that the Emperour should choose the Roman Bishop So Kings medling in Ecclesiastical affaires was never contraverted till the Roman Church swelled to the height of Tyranny and since the Reformation it hath been still stated as one of the differences betwixt us and them N. Well then I hope you who are so much for the Kings Supremacy will not quarrel at this indulgence which is now granted to us C. We are better subjects then to criticize upon much lesse condemn our Soveraigns pleasure in such things neither do we as you did carry all these matters to the Pulpit But I pray how would you Anno 1641. have received such a proposition from the King in favours of the Doctors of Aberdeen or other worthy persons whom you drove away by tumults not by lawes I doubt all your Pulpits should have rung with it And we may guesse at this by the opposition many of you made to the receiving of suspected persons into the Army for the necessary defence of the Countrey then almost overrun by the enemy so that you have now got a favour which you were never in a capacity to have granted to us when you governed and yet you see with what cheerfull obedience we receive his Majesties pleasure even in an instance which may seem most contrary to all our interests Or if any have their jealousies they stiffle them so within their breast that none whisper against authority N. This sayes it is against your will and therefore your compliance to it is forced not voluntary C. So much the greater is our vertue when we obey and submit to things against our inclinations which you never dream of but we are so inclined to peace that if you abuse not this liberty you have got we shall never complain of it nay if it produce the effects which we desire and for which we are assured it is designed we shall rejoyce for it which are to bring you to a more peaceable temper to make you value and love more one of the Noblest and most generous Princes that ever ruled and to dispose you to a brotherly accommodation with us which the Fathers of the Church are ready to offer to you on as fair terms as could be demanded by any rational person whereby if you listen not to them it will appear to the world that you are truly Schismatical And to encline you more to union I intend at our next meeting to give you a full prospect of the state of the antient Church both in their Government Worship and Discipline whereby I doubt not to convince you that their frame was far better suited for promoting all the ends of Religion then ever Presbytery could be But though I have made considerable observations in this besides what is in various Collectors yet I cannot at present give you so particular a plann as I design but shall reserve it till another meeting Mean-while do not abuse our Soveraigns royal goodness nor the tenderness of these he sets over you But let us all jointly pray that God in whose hands all our hearts are