poynt wherin al the mater standeth this man in this .ix. chapiter of his speketh not one worde And therfore in this thing staÌ„deth myn answere made in y e sayd .xx. chapiter of myne apolpgye clene and clere vntouâ—hed as euery maÌ„ may perceyue that readeth yt And therfore where in y e secoÌ„de syde of his .xxxii. lefe this man saith thus And to th entent I wold haue this mater the better loked vpâ—on I wolde here aduertyse syr Thomas More not by waye of argument but for clerenesse of conscyence to consydre whyther ye the more charytable waye fyrste to make restytucyon and paye dettes and releue extreme pouerte and then to do the tother yf he haue to do bothe or elles to do the fyrste and let the tother passe For this his good aduertysement I veâ—y hartely thanke hym answere hym as hym selfe wolde wysshe I sholde that surely me thynketh as he doth that the more charytable waye of the twayne were that y t hym self here moueth ¶ But than lo by and by he geueth me another good lesson wherwith he wolde I sholde amende myne owne fawte that he wolde it shold seme I had in myne apologye made agaynst hym For than lo thus goeth he ferther forth And yf he thynke that this waye that I moue be the more cherytable waye that than he helpe it forwarde rather than the other and than not to blame any man that maketh that mocyon as though he were agaynst treÌ„tallys obitis such other For he is not agaynst them dyrectely but onely entendeth to haue them chauÌ„ged into a more cherytable ordeâ— For though prayours be ryght expedyent and helthfull to the soule yet they serue not in all caâ—es as to dyscharge dettes or restytucyons where there ys inough to paye them wyth no more than there can be founden any one salue that can hele all maner of soores ¶ I neyther haue done that I wote of nor wyllyngly inteÌ„de to do blame hym for any part of this cherytable mocyoÌ„ but thynke his mocyon ryght good and that the fruyte therof yf it be folowed wytâ—e more yet than him selfe sayth he myndeth For he sayth as you se that he myndeth but to chaunge obitys and trentallys and those other thynges into a more cherytable order that is to wytte in to payeng of dettes and recompensyng of wronges in them that haue not of theyr owne bysyde and in them that haue than to paye the dettes and recompence wronges fyrste and do the tother after But me thynketh there wyll come yet a ferther profyte of this order to For where as here we speke but of hym that payeth his det and recoÌ„penseth his wrongê of whiche folke many a man is able well to do y e tother whan bothe those twayn be done there is to the tother sort of menne also bysyde to whome those wronges are done and those dettes owynge of whyche sorte there be many that yf theyr wronges were ones recompensed them theyr dettê payed them were able and wolde do those other thynges also them selfe which now for lacke be not able so sholde there of lykelyhed be the selfe thynges y t brynge as his fyrste boke sayth rychesse into the chyrch by this good order encreaced And therfore not onely haue I no cause to blame thys good man for the mocyoÌ„ of this good cherytable order but also no more haue the multytude of the prestes whiche myghte of lykelyhed wynne as mych by thys waye as by the tother and more excepte the multytude of prestes wolde for y e redynesse to take it where it is all redy moue theym that haue it to do these other thyngê fyrst leue theyr dettê vnpaied theyr wroÌ„gê vnrecoÌ„peÌ„sed which y t the multitude of prestê do I neuer herd yet aâ—y honest laye man that wolde for very shame say For I thynke it were harde to mete with a prest that wâ—re so wreched but that yf he were asked in y t point his adâ—â—ce couÌ„sayle he wold in so playn a point though it were but for very shame well playnely couÌ„sayle the trouth And if percase there were some fouÌ„den so shamelesse that they wolde geue counsayle contrary yet am I very sure they shuâ—de be farre the fewer parte and not as thys good mannys fyrste booke sayth the more parte and the multytude ¶ And therfore syth this order that this good maÌ„ here moueth is so good and so cherytable I neuer blamed hym for the mocyoÌ„ But though this mocioÌ„ in this boke be good I myght well and so I dyd blame his other booke not for this mocyon but for another mater that is bycause it labored vnder pretexte of an vntrew report to brynge the spyrytualtye in slawnder and obloquy amonge the temporaltye by makynge men wene that of this cherytable order whyche he now moueth the multytude of the spyritualty induced men to y e coÌ„trary ¶ This is lo the thynge that I blamed And therfore lyke as thys good man sayeth that one plaster can not he le all soores so surely thys same salue of this good cherytable mocion can not serue this good cherytable man to salue and he le well this vncherytable soore ¶ In this mocion of this cherytable order thys good manne waxeth so warme that of a good zele he falleth in remembraunce of the soule which our lorde perdon of the moste noble prynce of very famouse memory kynge Henry the .vii. father to the most excellent prynce our souerayne lorde the kynge that now is wherin after mencyon made of obitys and chauntrees lettyng the dew examynacyon requysyte for restytucion sodaynly thus he sayth How be it the ryght noble prynce of blessed memory kynge Henry the .vii. father of our souerayne lorde the kynge that now is wylled restytucyons to be made But how hys wyll was performed I can not tell How be it what so euer was done therin I suppose hys good entent suâ—fyseth to hym ¶ What yf thys good man can not tell By lykelyhed there is nothyng owynge to hym therof For yf there were than were it lykely y t he could tell For he coulde tell than that all the wyl were not performed I haue herde I wote well that the kyng our souerayne lorde delyuered great substaunce into thexecutours handes to fulfyll the wyll wythall Whyche how they haue bestowed thys good man maye yf he haue thauthoryte call them to the rekenynge And yf he neyther haue authorite to call for the accompte nor haue nothyng owyng to hym neyther the mater than towcheth not hym so nere nor so specyally perteyneth vnto hym y t he shold greatly nede to geue all the worlde warnynge thus y t hym selfe is not made of counsayle how the kynges wyll is performed ¶ But here wyll this good man say y t I do but mocke him wherin I wyl not greately stycke wyth hym But surely for my pore wyt me thynketh it somwhat more ciuilite in some such poyntes as this is a lytell
of heretyques as some haue made hym of the spyrytualtye yf hym selfe therin saye trewe as he semeth to haue geuen to theym that haue reported vnto hym that there are many heretiques For than syth after hys owne preachynge here a man oughte to be so well ware howe he lyghtely reporte agayne any euyll lyghte reportes that he hathe herde to the slaunder of any one man hym selfe wold not of lykelyhed so lyghtely haue made such euyll report in that poynt to the slaunder and obloquye of the prelates of the spyrytualtye therby to brynge theym in grudge of the whole temporalty vppon such lyght reportes made vnto hym by some lyghte symple persones where as by the kynges honorable counsayle the trouthe hathe ben so playnely proued to be contrarie ¶ But yet where as he confesseth that he hathe herde yt sometyme reported that there be many heretyques I wolde fayne wyt of hym whether that suche reporte haue ben made vnto hym by any of the temporaltye If he saye naye but that all that so tolde hym were spyrytuall men than may they byleue hym that thynke hys answere lykely For I wolde wene in my mynde that betwene hym and spyrytnall persones were not so myche famylyare companye as to come to tell hym that tale For he semeth not very metely for spyrytuall men in that mater to make theyr mone vnto And than yf he harde yt eyther of temporall men besyde or of temporall men onely and no spyrytuall men at all than dyd he not very well when he wrote in hys dyuysyon that spyrytual men make that noyse for a polycye And yet also wolde I farther wyâ—â— whether he haue herde any speke heresyes in any place where hym selfe was present in companye If he answere me naye than wyll I preace no farther vppon hym but let euery man as I saide before byleue yt that thynketh yt lykely But on the tother syde yf he answere me ye than wolde I fayne farther wyt whyther euer hym selfe wente so farre wyth theym as to proue whether he sholde by hys owne rule in thys chapyter haue cause to shewe theyr ordynarye of theym that he myghte sende for theym or ellys that herynge folke so speke heresyes by hym he toke all to the beste alwaye of his owne specyall goodnesse and leste he myghte wyth questyonynge happe to fynde yt worse folowed euer in that mater the good counsayle that saynt Poule gaue in a nother mater nolite interrogare propter conscientiam aske no questyon leste you brynge a scruple into your conscyence If he vsed any dylygence in questyonynge than were yt well lykely that he founde in all thys longe whyle some where at the leste wyse some one ¶ But now yf he herde them speke heresye founde no faute therwyth nor no questyon asked then ys yt as I sayde lytle meruayle though he neuer no where in al England fouÌ„d one And that is euen one of the very thynges whyle many folke nowe fall to the same fashyon to heare heresyes talked and lette the talkers alone whyche yet wyll yf they be brought into the court byfore the iudge tell than the trouth and wyl not be so false as to be forsworen thys is I say one of the very special thynges for whyche in cryme of heresye the suyte ex officio whyche in the next chapyter folowyng he laboreth â—ore to destroye maye what so euer thys man saye in no wyse be forborne but yf we wolde haue the â—iretes swarme full of heretyques why the very lykely were to folowe though he saye naye .xl. tymes And that haue I agaynste hys boke of dyuysyon well declared in myne Apologye And he hath agayn here in thys boke defended in that poynte his boke of dyuysyon as your self shal anon se god wote wyth myche worke full febly The secuÌ„d part The .xv. chapyter HIs .xv. chapiter concernynge the suit ex officio begynneth in the xlviii lefe of his boke holdeth on into y e .liiii. ¶ And for as mych good christeÌ„ readers at it may well appere that this poynt is the specyall thynge that he fayne wolde brynge about that is to wyt to sowe an opinyon in mennes heddes that it were good to chaunge and put awaye that suit toward whiche purpose all his boke of diuysyon bendeth laborynge fyrst with his so many some sayes to brynge the spyrytuall iudges in suspycyon and obloquy and make the people wene y t they meruelousely dyd with mych wronge cruelty mysse handle men for heresye therfore I shall in thys poynt here confute hys argumentes so playne in such wyse that who so lyste indyfferently to rede bothe the partes shall fynde here causes good and suffycyent why by his vnreasonable reasoÌ„s neuer after to set a flye ¶ And fyrst bycause ye shall well se that I wyll not wrestle in the darke but brynge the mater into lyght open and playne at your eyen I wyll in this mater leue you not out one word of this his .xv. chapyter but brynge forth his wordê with myne And thaÌ„ whyle you rede the tone fyrste the tother euyn after hande there shall neyther he nor I by any sly sleyght deceyue you ¶ But two thynges for thys mater wyll I requyre you fyrste one that you reiecte one wyly sleyght of hys with which he goth about euyn from the begynnynge to corrupte our iudgement that are temporall men and in y e redyng to blynd vs with affeccioÌ„ ¶ For in all this mater he maketh as there were two partes The tone he maketh the spyrytualtye And thys cause he so maketh theyrs as though the coÌ„modyte of that suit to be kepte were a thynge that perteyned onely vnto theÌ„ The tother partye he maketh vs of the temporalty whom he wold haue put y e same suit away For though that in the perleament be spyrytuall men also yet all were they al vpon one syde sure he seeth wel they were to fewe ¶ But it is necessary that we consyder in this poynt that though the iudges be spyrytuall yet yf that suit be necessary for preseruacyon of the catholyke fayth than is the profyte not the spirytuall mennes onely but that profyte and aduauntage is our owne to And yf by the chaunge of that suit ex officio the decay of the catholyke fayth shall folow in this realme than is not the losse and damage vnto the spyrytualtye alone but the harme is importable vnto the whole realme ¶ Therfore haue this poynt in this mater euer before your eyen that y e chaunge of that law yf that lawe be good but yf he chaunge it in to a better or at the leste as good is a comen harme to the whole realme And that harme happeneth in y e gretest thyng that we coulde possyble take harme in yf we be as I wote well we be euer entende to be faythfull trew chrysten people ¶ Loke therfore good readers both to his reasons and myne and yf you fynde by his reasoÌ„s that the
al theÌ„ y â— were membres of that generall counsayle and in all the wyttê of al chrysten regyons that haue vsed and allowed y t lawe for good euer synnys reason wolde I say that he sholde at the leste haue layed some reason here wherfore y e lawe can not please hym that he whiche though he be not proued gysty of the dede is yet proued suspecte shold purge hym selfe after tharbitrement of thordynarye that is to wytte in suche maner wyse as thordynary sholde thynke conuenyent vpoÌ„ the qualytees of y t person cyrcuÌ„stauÌ„ces of y e cause coÌ„sydered ¶ Suppose now y t there were none other maner of purgacion but by his neyghbours swerynge wyth hym that those wordê ad arbitriuÌ„ epi were not writen in the law were it yet reason to accepte his oth in what so euer maner the man wolde hym selfe deuyse it and with as few handes as hym selfe lyste appoynt and with what maner folke so euer hym selfe wolde brynge ¶ Nay syr For it may so be y t there shal be good cause why somtyme and in some place that thordynary sholde not putte some man to that kynde of purgacion which yf he dyd were he neuer so noughty he shold be sure of compurgatours peraduenture mo than inough ¶ For it hath ben sene in many cuÌ„treys ere this somtyme in england to that some euyll precher prechyng playne opeÌ„ heresyes shold yet if he myght haue ben put to such purgacyoÌ„ haue lacked none handes to lay on the boke with hym that he neuer spake suche wordes How be it where y e wordê are opeÌ„ playn heresye y e law hath ê“uided an other way for y e remedy good inough ¶ But thaÌ„ haue there ben some prechers such ere this y e techyng playne heresies to theyr familiars secretely wold prech in such wyse abrode that theyr wordê shold haue two senses one bote serue for eyther legge like a shypmans hose so shold be tempered as the peple shold haue occasyon alway to take them to the wurst and hym selfe yf he were examined wold say before thordinary swere to that he neuer ment but the beste ¶ Now whan it shold by good wytnesses appere y t his maner was such the peple toke mych harme therby alwaye toke his wordê so that they thought he so meÌ„t theÌ„ y â— he purposed by them to set forth aduauÌ„ce those thyngê y t were stark heresies in dede yf thordinary shold thaÌ„ appoint him with other coÌ„purgatours to purge this suspicioÌ„ were these suspicioÌ„s neuer so vehemeÌ„t he shold lacke no coÌ„purgatours to purge hym self euery weke thaÌ„ do as he dyd before And many good symple folke takyng him eueÌ„ as he ment shold fall into his heresyes y â— whyle wene while he preched so styll y t to byleue y e way were no perell ¶ And therfore those wise men that made y e law left y e thyng in thordinarys discrecioÌ„ to assigne hym that is proued suspect of heresy such kynde of purgacyon as the cyrcumstaunces of the person and the peple and the tyme shall most requyre ¶ And therfore wyll thordynary to some man so suspecte somtyme assygne hym to purge his suspycyon y t with his lewd maner of prechynge he is fallen in to the greate hurte of his herers that he shall openly confesse y t those heresyes that the people toke hym to mene be very salse here syes in dede and openly shall deteste them and swere that he so byleueth them to be and swere that he neither ment to teche theym nor neuer was mynded y t any maÌ„ shold take hym so nor neuer wold afterward teche nor hold heresies but abiure theÌ„ for euer ¶ And yet for the ferther purgacyoÌ„ of such suspicioÌ„ the ordynary myght also enioyne hym some certayn thynges to do suche as maye declare the more clereli y t he is not of such mind as open prechyng agaynste the selfe same heresyes the doynge of some suche thynges as those heresyes dyd stande agaynste ¶ And now by this purgacyon thys good shall he do that yf he wolde after preache the same thynges agayne though he vsed agayne such a nother wyly fashyon yet wolde his audyence then thynke thus as many as hadde any mynde to be good eyther this man meaneth nowe by his wordes to teache vs that poynt that hym selfe hath abiured and then lette vs not lerne the thynge of hym that he wolde in no wyse we shold or elles he meaneth to tâ—ache yt vs styll for al his abiuracion And then wherfore sholde we be so madde to byleue a false wreche y t wold make vs byleue now that that thynge were trewe whyche hym selfe hath openly coÌ„fessed and sworen to be false ¶ But then wyll happely this good man say that this abiuracyon is perylouse for iubardye of the relapse The parell of deth by relapse is not vppon euery abiuracyon But of trouth he that is abiured vppon such thynges proued as maketh hym not sleyghtly but very vehemently suspected yf he fall after into heresye putteth hym selfe in parell to fall into the fyre And very good reason yt is that yt be so And a man may some tyme be so suspecte of felony by reason of sore presumpcyons y t though no man saw hym do yt nor hym selfe neuer confesse yt but saye and swere to that he neuer hadde yt yet may he be founden gyltye of yt and theruppon haÌ„ged for yt and haue no wroÌ„ge at all ¶ And thus this prouysyon for purgacyon at the dyscrecyon of the ordynarye is not I truste so vnreasonable nor they so vnreasonable that made yt nor they so vnreasonable y t ratified it nor al they so vnresonable y t thys two or thre huÌ„dred yere haue accepted and allowed yt but that yt maye nowe stande by thys good maÌ„nys leue at this daye as well as yt hath standen all this whyle before But yet is there one thiÌ„g y t he taketh for a thing very sore For thaÌ„ is there sayth he a nother law that if he that is so proued suspect refuse to pourge hym self at the discrecyon of thordynary and be for hys conâ—umacy excommunycate that in that case yf he of an obdurate harte stande so accursed an whole yere he shal be punyshed as an heretyke And that ys as he sayth by the law Extra de hereticis capitulo Excommunicamus ¶ This prouisyon was made as I tolde you in the sayde generall counsayle And where he bringeth it forth as though yt were a very sore thyng and a cruell yt is in dede very fauorable For sauynge that I wyll not do as he doth go fynd fautes in their doynges that were so many so mych better and had so myche more wytte then I elles could I lay a lytle better cause to proue that prouysyon ouer fauorable then euer this good man shall fynde whyle he lyueth to proue that prouysyon to sore And surely he that beynge proued suspect
the meane whyle and so hath it hym also that was arrested vppon suspycyon of felony that neuer was after indyghted but delyuered forth fre vpoÌ„ the proclamacyon ¶ I se no great dyfference bytwene these two men in all this mater yet saue that the tone lyeth at his owne fyndynge the tother at the bysshoppes coste ¶ For where as this man sayth that he whyche is delyuered by proclamacyon hath alwaye geuen hym by the iustycê a good lessoÌ„ at his departing yf the bysshoppe geue not the tother a good lesson at hys departynge to thaÌ„ is he somwhat to blame in dede but in â—ood fayth I here saye that he doth so to And therfore where is this dyfference yet I loke alwaye for that For as for the shame of open brynging forth is both one as I said sauynge that the sessyon hath comeÌ„ly mych more people present to gase vppon the tone than in the consystory loketh vppon the tother ¶ And where thys man sayth that they lye lenger in pryson for heresye than they do eyther for suspycyon of felonye or for good aberynge yf he speke of those whyche are in conclusyon founden in no more fawte concernynge heresye than those are that are deliuered by ê“clamacioÌ„ be fouÌ„deÌ„ at the sessyon concernynge felony I dare be bolde to tell hym nay And I am very sure the trouth wyll proue so to But now yf he speke of those that appere vppon th ende in suche fawte that by the law they be boundeÌ„ to abiure than is it good reason that they lye lenger in dede And so lye there as reasoÌ„ is sometyme some for felonye to repryed vpon causys froÌ„ one sessyon to another and somtyme kepte you se well all the whole yere and more And that somtyme such as are in conclusyon neuer indyghted neyther but after all that delyuered by proclamacyon and yet good causes in y e meane whyle why they were kepte so And therfore where as this man sayth that they be in worse case that bere a fagotte very trouth it ys somewhat and so is it reason they be For they be not fawtelesse but conuicted of the fawte And our dyspycyoÌ„s is of innocentes that happen by the lawe the tone lawe or the tother to take harme without theyr fawte For yf he wolde compare the fawty with the fawtye than must he coÌ„pare the tone berynge the faggotte with the tother at the very fyrste tyme borne vppe wyth the rope ¶ And therfore I dyd in that place not onely shewâ— that he that is innocent maye by arrestynge for felonye happe to haue as myche harme as he y t is innocent and arrested for heresye but that he maye happen to haue sometyme also as mych harme as he that for the fyrst tyme is founden fawty in heresye and playnely conuycted therof And surely saue for the ferther perell vppon hys ferther fawte so maye it happe in dede and yet as I sayed in my dyaloge the lawe muste nedes be kepte but yf you wyll by the chauÌ„ge haue fyue theuys for one And thus as for this pyece of arrestynge for suspycioÌ„ of felony the case hath he not proued vnlyke towchynge the purpose that I putte it for but for my parte very stronge And so hath thys good man in thys fyrst pyece of the thyrde point a very great fall ¶ Than cometh he nexte vnto another case that I spake of also that is to wyt arrestynge vppon good aberynge And where as in myne apologye that pyece is the thyrde y e pyece in hys answere he maketh the secoÌ„d and I se why well inough For syth hym selfe seeth that he answereth it so slenderly he wrappeth it vp in the myddes bycause it sholde be the lesse marked and wold ende with another pyece wherin hym selfe weneth thaâ— he sayth somwhat better ¶ Now as for this good aberynge to th ende y t ye may se the better how gayly this good man answereth it I shall fyrste reherse you the wordes of myne apology that he maketh this answere to ¶ After that I haue she weth there that y e iudges of the spyrytuall court be not so folysshe but that they had leuer not medle with any man saue onely vppon some suche open inquisycyon as are indyghtementes of felonye for auoydynge of obloquy sauyng that necessyte compelleth them to take thys way for feare that with sufferaunce of heresyes to go forth grow all myghte at length thorow goddes displeasure very farre grow to nought I say there farther thus folio .225 Necessyte somtyme causeth also both the temporall iuges and the kynges counsayle to put some folke to busynesse or dyshonestye somtyme wythout eyther iury or bryngynge of the accuser to the profe of the mater in the partyes presence For yf the iudge knowe by sure enformacyon that some one man is of such euyll demeanure amonge his neyghbours that they may not â—ere it and yet that the man is bysyde so vyolent and so iuberdouse that none of them dare be aknowen to speke of it wyll there no iudges vpon many secrete coÌ„playntes made vnto them without makynge the party preuye who tolde hym that tale bynde that busy troubelouse man to good aberynge I suppose yes and haue sene it so to and wronge wolde it be some tyme wyth good pore peasyble folke in the countrey but yf it were so done amonge And my selfe whan I was chauncellour vpon suche secrete enformacyon haue put some out of coÌ„myssyon and offyce of iustyce of the peace whyche els for mych money I wold not haue done yet yf I were in the tone rome styll and they in the tother agayne but yf they be mended wherof I neyther than sawe nor yeâ— here any lykelyhed I wold put them out agayne and neuer tell them who told me the tales y t made me so to do◠¶ Lo good readers here you se that in thys pyece I mene nothynge els but that where as this good man fyndeth a fawte that the spyrytual iudge sholde medle wyth any man for heresye without an open accusour complaynyng to hym or an open presentemeÌ„t in y e begynnyng I shew there that necessyte is the cause and forth wyth afterwarde I proue it whiche thys good man dyssembleth here and inuerteth here thordre for the nonys And I shew that necessite lest mych more harme sholde grow theron causeth the temporall iudges the kynges honorable counsayle to to putte some man to busynesse somtyme and so to dishonesty both without eyther indyghtemeÌ„t or open accusour or suffryng hym to make answere eyther and thus be they fayne to do but yf they shold suffre many great harmes to growe Now marke well I requyre you how substancyally thys good man answereth thys These are hys wyse wordes so And then as to the arrestynge for good abearynge trouth it is that a man by commaundement of the iustyces may so be arrestyd but he shall neuer be put to answere vppon that arrest but onely bounde and suretyes with hym of
the felde But nowe that you may se what strength he hath in that warde I shall fyrste brynge you forth that warde agaynst whyche yt fyghteth In myne apologye fo cc.xxii these are mye wordes lo. And bycause thys pacyfyer taketh yt for so sore a thynge in the spyrytuall lawe that a man shall be called ex officio for heresy where he shal not know his accuser yf we sholde chaunge the spyrytuall lawe for that cause theÌ„ hadde we nede to chaunge the temporall to in some suche poyntes as chaunge yt when ye wyll and ye shal chaunge yt into the worse for aughte that I can se but yf it be better to haue mo theuys then fewer For now yf a man be endyghted at a sessyons and none euydens geuen openly at the barre as many be and many maye well be For thendytours may haue euydeÌ„ce gyuen them a ê‘te â— or haue herde of the mater ere they came there and of whome be they not bounden to tell but be rather boundeÌ„ to kepe yt close for they be sworen to kepe the kynges counsayle and theyr owne shall then the partye that is endyghted be put vnto no besynesse aboute his acquytayle And who shall tell hym there the names of his accuser to entytle hym to his wryte of coÌ„spyracye This pacyfyer wyll peraduenture saye that the same twelue men that are hys endyghtours are his accusers therfore he may know them But what helpeth that his vndeserued vexacyon yf he were fauteless For ameÌ„des the law geueth him none agaynst any of them nor it were not well done he sholde but may wheÌ„ he is after by other .xii. acquyte go gette hym home and be mery that he hath had so fayre a day as a man getteth hym to the fyre and shaketh his hatte after a shoure of rayne And nowe as yt often happeth that a man cometh into a shoure by his own ouersyght though somtyme of chauÌ„s and of aduenture so surely though somtyme yt happe that a man be accused or endyghted of malyce or oâ— some lykelyhed whyche happed hym of chaunce and not his faute therin yet happeth yt in comparyson very selde but that the partye by some demeanure of hym selfe gyueth occasyoÌ„ that folke haue hym so suspected ¶ In this pyece my purpose is good reders as you se to shewe that lyke wise as a man shall in the suyt ex officio for heresye not knowe his accuser so may yt also happen many tymes that no more he shall neyther when he is at the comen sawe indyghted of felonye And I shewe also therin as you se that though yt maye tometyme happe eyther of malyce or chauÌ„ce yet yt seldome happeth for all that that the partye so falleth in trouble without some defaute of hym selfe and that the commen generall lawe maye not for such seldome specyall happes be forborne To this pyece lo this good man answereth me thus And then mayster More sayth yet farther that vppon indytementes at sessyons the indyters vse not to shewe the names of theym that gaue them informacyon And he sayeth farther that they may not shewe theyr names For they may not dysclose the kynges counsayle nor theyr owne But as I take yt that prohybycyon of openynge of the counsayle in this case is onely to be vnderstande of theyr own coâ—â—sayle amonge them selfe after that they be sworne but for openynge of the names of theym that gaue them informacyon before they were sworn I know no prohibicyon And yf they wyl not shew theyr names they be not bounden to do yt for they be not bounde to helpe the partye to his wryt of coÌ„spyracy but as they lyste to do in conscyence ¶ Nowe good readers all this pretendyd defence is nothynge ellys in effecte but a fayre confessyon that yt is in dede trew the thyng y t I sayd my selfe that he whych is endyghted of felony maye be as for any aduâ—tage that he can take therby as ignoraunt somtyme who be his accusers as he shall in the suyte ex officio And therby may happen somtyme that he whyche is fautelesse shall not be all saued harmelesse and when he hathe hadde his harme shal be remedylesse And yet for all that the lawe not vnreasonable nor for auoydynge of myche more harme may not be forborne And therfore as for my purpose euen at that poynte myghte I haue left and neded to go no farther And then as you se this good man had ben quyte answerelesse ¶ But yet went I farther where me neded not and that this good man sayth that I dyd of necessyte wherof for this mater I hadde of trouth no nede And yet wolde I not nowe but I so hadde done in dede For I haue therby the better broughte to lyghte what lacke thys good man hath of any suffycyent answere For these are there lo good readers therin my farther wordes Nowe yf thys pacyfyer saye that yet here ys at the leste wyse in a temporall inge an open cause apperyng whereuppon men maye se that the iudge calleth hym not but vppon a mater broughte vnto hym where as the spyrytuall iudge maye call a man vppon his owne pleasure yf he bere the partye dyspleasure thys is very well sayde as for the temporall iudge But what sayth he now for the temporall .xii. men For ye wote well they maye do the same yf they were so dysposed and then hadde I as leue the iudge myght do it as they For in good faith I neuer saw y e day yet but that I durste as well trust the trouth of one iudge as of two iuryes But the iudges be so wyse men that for the auoydynge of obloquye they wyl not be put in the truste And I dare saye the ordynaryes be not so folyshe neyther but that they wolde as fayne auoyde yt to yf they myghte sauynge that very necessyte leste all sholde fall to noughte compelleth theym to take this waye ¶ Here you se that I meane in this wordes that though the pacyfyer wolde tell me that the temporall iudge hath by suche endyghtement at the leste wyse an open cause apperynge wheruppon a man maye se that the iudge calleth hym not of hys owne mynde but vppon a mater broughte vnto hym I wolde them graunte hym that thys is in dede a good ease to the temporall iudge to kepe hym oute of obloquye And the spyrytuall iuges be not so vnwyse but that they wold be glad of such a nother pauyce sauynge that they be bounden to take the tother waye and suffre them self euyl peples obloquye for auoydyng of the harme y t ellys wold folow by the decay of Cristes catholyke faith Whyche thynge I there proue well to as you shall after se. This as I saye wolde I haue graunted allway thys good man But then I wold allwaye therwythall haue tolde hym to that yet all that tale of hys hadde nothyge touched the poynte but that alwaye for all this tale the man that was indyghted yf the mater
experyence that whyle there hathe in long whyle but in two dyoceses very fewe bene punyshed for heresye the slaunder that he soweth toucheth some very few no lesse theÌ„ though he wrote in theyr names How caÌ„ he therfore for very shame saye that yt is no dyffamacyon Weneth he the reders of his worke were all such folys that he myght auoyde his playne open dede wyth his bare bolde worde where he sayth yt appereth euydentely nay where euery wyse man that readeth yt seeth well hym selfe that yt well appereth euydently yes ¶ Nowe goeth he farther wyth a nother pyece and sayth Nor yet my wordes proue not that I wolde haue al spyrytuall iudges chaunged For the spyrytuall iudges that be nowe maye be iudges styll and haue al the propertyes before rehersed as well as other for any thyng that I haue sayd And yet mayster More taketh yt otherwyâ—e and sayeth I wolde haue such iudges as haue no spyce of any of the sayd poyntes And he sayth that tyll suche iudges may be founde heretykes may make mery for a lytle season whyâ—e men walke aboute and seche for such iudges which he weneth wyll not be done in a wekes worke ¶ Here he leueth oute agayne the place of myne that he toucheth For when that is ones redde all hys gay tale is gone For there shall you se that I consyder hys wordes and declare two wayes that the good man myght meane of whyche twanne he taketh here the tone and the tother he letteâ—h slype And yet in takynge his wordes as he wolde nowe seme my wordes whyche he dyssembleth here turne vppe aâ—l his tale and that the man sawe full well and therfore wynked of theym But I shall brâ—nge theym in agayne here and repeâ—e theym for hym Lo good readers in y â— .xlvi. chapiter fo 253. after hâ—s wâ—rdes rehersed at length thus I 〈◊〉 myne owne Iâ— thys processe lo good readers this pacyfyer declareth that he wold haue the kynges hyghnes and hys counsayle so specyally loke vppon thys mater that neyther innocentes sholde be punyshed nor yet wylfull offenders go wythoute dewe correccyonâ— who could ende and coÌ„clude all hys mater more frutefully But now the specyall ways wherby he dyuyseth that the kynges hyghnesse and his counsayle sholde bryng this thynge about be twayne The tone is yf they prouyde that neyther men that be proude nor couetouse nor haue any loue to the worlde be suffred to be iudges in any cause of hâ—resye The tother ys that the byshoppes shall arreste no man for heresye tyll the desyre that spyrytuall men haue to cause men abiure heresyes and to punyshe theym for heresyee be ceased and gone And surely I thynke that his two dyuyses wyll serue suffycyently for the tone parte that ys to wytte that none innocentes shall be punyshed But I fere me very sore that they wyll not serue halfe so suffycyently for the tother parte that ys to wytte that wylfull offendours go not with oute correccyon For now to begynne with his fyrst dyuyse that none be suffred to be iudges in cause of heresye y t are proude or couetouse or haue loue to y e world yf he meane of suche as haue none of these affeccyons wyth notable enormyte then tyll he proue theym that are all redy worse thenne he proueth them yet that is to saye tyll he proue yt otherwyse by some of they re outragyouse dedes in the dealynge and myshandelyuge of men for heresy y t he here defameth them of theÌ„ he hath yet proued and that he proue they re cruell wrongful dealynge otherwyse then by somesayes or by hys owne sayenge the kynges hyghnes hys counsayle can se for all hys holesome counsayle no cause to chaunge those iudges that are all redy but to leue them styll and them serueth that dyuyse of nought And on the other syde yf he meane that the kynges hyghnesse shal suffer none to be iudges in cause of heresye that hath any spyce at all eyther of pryde or of couetyse or any loue at all vnto thys worlde heretykes may syt styll and make mery for a lytle season whyle men walke about and seke for such iuges For yt wyl not be lesse then one whole wekes worke I wene both to finde such and to be sure that they be suche ¶ Here haue you herd good reders a resonable cause why that I sholde take hym that he wolde haue the spyrytuall iuges such as shold haue no spice of pride couetouse nor worldly loue For either he must meane so or elles as I sayde he must meane on the tother maner which I reherse fyrste and whych he wold now seme to mean But then as I haue sayd yf he ment in the fyrst fashyon as he wolde now seme all his tale is ouer turned For then hadde he no cause of any suche complaynte For he nâ—yther hadde hym selfe when he wrote nor any man elles preued by any of theym the contrary And then neded he not to spende oute hys profounde wysedome in makynge suche exhortacyons to the kynges hyghnesse and his counsayle to se with so great dilygence as though they had be so long neglygent to the thyng that him self could not say nay but y t it was metely well ynough all redy And thus you se good reders that he lefte oute and dissembled that fyrst part of my wordes bycause he wysâ—e nere what to saye therto And therfore syth except he meÌ„t in the fyrst maner which he could not do without the marryng of all his mater you se well that him self droue me to thynke that he wold haue the kynges grace and his counsayle se dylygently that there shold be no spyrituall iudgê but they y t had no spice of pryde couetise or worldly loue at all And then myghte heretyques as I sayd whyle suche iudges were in sekynge make mery for a lytle whyle And I kepte my selfe metely well wythin my boundes For where I sayde yt wolde be a wekes worke to seke theym I wene yt wold he fourtenyght ful ere we founde them ¶ But then gooth he farther somewhat aboute to shewe that I haue mysse handeled his wordes wyth ioynynge myne owne vnto his haue made yt seme that he sayeth myche worse by the spyrytualtye then he eyther sayde or ment But when you haue herde all hys tale and myne to you shall well se good readers that he shall neuer whyle he lyueth conuey this gere so clene For these are fyrste his wordes here And he sayeth that yt wyll be the more harde to â—ynde suche iuges For he sayth that I haue putte that mater oute of doute that where no men wolâ—e haue wende â—oneste to haue founde theym that there I saye yt wyll be meruaylouse harde to â—ynde any one of theym eyther prelates seculere prestes or relygyouse persons For he saythe that I saye playnely that haue they neuer so many vertues besyde that yet I saye yt wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall man
dyuerse other places of his apologye by kepynge secrete suche abusyons and pretences as in my conscyence haue ben moste pryncypall causes of thys dyuysyon wherof parte be recyted in the sayd tâ—eatyce and part in thys answere but not all ¶ Of these there had nede in dede to be mo some more trew and some of a lytell more substauÌ„ce to than be the most parte of these y t this good man hath layed forth yet ¶ Now here he sayeth that I kepe secrete such abusyons and pretences as be the pryncypall causes of the dyuysyon wherof hym selfe hath he sayth shewed some eyther he meaneth that those which I kept secrete be those that hym selfe hath wryten or other besyde theym If he meane other then eyther hym self knoweth theym or not If he knowe them not how knoweth he that I know them or that there be any suche at all If hym selfe knowe theym and shewe them not then he hydeth theym and kepeth theym secret hym self as wel as I. Nowe yf he meane but those that hym selfe hath wryten how can I kepe those secrete that he hath writen Can I bothe gather vppe all hys bokes and go hyde theym and also make theÌ„ y t haue redde them go vnreade them agayne or forgete what they haue redde ¶ But now after this lyke wyse as he is wonte wheÌ„ reason fayleth hym to fal to preachyng so here bycause reason faileth hym he falleth to prayenge and therin thus he sayth I beseche almighty god that he haue no power to do yt but that the trouth maye come to fyghte therin thoâ—gh he resyste yt all that he can For yf yt were knowen and the fautes charytably reformed all these dyuysyons wolde shortely haue an ende ¶ Nay perdye this man seeth well ynought that though the fautê of the spyrytualtye were neuer so fully reformed yet could not all that suffyse to brynge all dyuysyons to an ende but yf one thyng be done whych wyl neuer be done wherof which he forgeteth I gaue hym warnynge in the .116 lefe of myne Apologye in these wordes But now if thys pacyfyer to cease and quenche thys dyuysyon coulde fynde the meanes to make all the whole clergye good yet for all that syth he layeth for causes of this dyuysyon that some men saye thys by the clergye and some men saye by them that were all the clergye neuer so good in dede and serued god neuer so wel this diuisyon by his own tale yet could not for all that cease except he coulde prouyde farther that no pytuouse pacyfyer sholde in lamentynge of dyuysyon putte forthe a boke and saye that some lay men say that some of the clergye be noughte and loue they re ease and theyr welth and that some saye that those that seme beste and take moste labour and payne be but hypocrytes for all that and serue god but for vayne glorye to gete theym selfe laude and prayse amonge the people ¶ Also yf defautes sholde be charyble reformed as this man sayth he wolde haue theym yt wolde be nede then to sette a lytle more charytable folke aboute yt then those haue ben that haue begyled thys good man wyth euyll counsayle in hys bookys and haue made hym vnder pretexte of pacyfyenge dyuysyon sette forthe and encrease dyuysyon wyth dyuysynge and spredynge abrode causes of murmure and grndge makynge in some of them an elephaÌ„t of a gnat and for olde grudges bryngynge forth some suche as the people neuer had herd of tyll they redde his bokê and some of the very worst whyche were most effectuall causes yf they were trewe bryngyng forth by hepes wyth a fygure of some say and very playn lyes in dede Is this the way good readers for a pacifyer to make peace wyth and put awaye dyuysyons ¶ And nowe hymselfe handelynge the mater thus he taketh of his charyte great thought leste I go about to hynder hys holy purpose And therfore sayth I doute me very sore that maister more goeth obout rather to marre all then to endeuoyr hym selfe to make all well ¶ Whyche be the lykelyheddes now good reders that lede this good man into this gret fere Bycause I make open the shrewde mynde of hys demure countenaunce and the harmful intent and purpose of his holy holesome wordes Bycause I wolde haue the temporaltye and the spyrytualtye as the bodye and the soule of one man loue well to gether and agree and neyther of theym be glad to here euyll of other nor to geue eare to false sedycyouse slaunder but the good folke of eyther parte drawe bothe by one lyne accordynge to both the law is to represse and kepe vnder the bad and among other vyces specyall suche pestylent heresyes as elles wolde oppresse the catholyque fayth prouoke the dyspleasure of god and fyrste sow deuysyon and afterwarde rere rebellyon in y e realme as they haue done byfore thys tyme both here and in other places and y t I to thys entent geue myne aduyce to kepe styll those good lawes that bothe thys realme and all the corps of chrystendome haue long vsed and approued Bycause I thus do so therfore this good man fereth that I go about to marre all ¶ But whyle his bokes go aboute on the tother syde to make the world wene that heresyes be no causes of dyuysyon and to haue heretyques lyue in the lesse fere wyth many malycyouse some sayes falsely slaundereth the ordynaryes of cruell wrong full handelyng of the peple to dryue them by drede or by shame or other tedyouse besynes to sette heretyques alone and go aboute wyth balde reasons the beste not worthe a ryshe to put away the good lawes y t haue ben made agaynst theym vnder colour of a feruour to the faith exhorte men to go wynne the holy land and in the meane whyle yet wyth suche wyly wayes labour wyth heretyques to fyll vp the â—tretes at home by the decay of the crysten catholyke fayth prouoke y e wrath of god vpon al our heddes whych our lord rather turne vpon theyrs that so wold haue it his bokes besyly goyng about this gere hym 〈◊〉 goeth about ye se well peâ—dye to make all thynge euyll ¶ But now wyll I fyrste fynyshe vp his .xx. chapiter wherin he goeth forwarde thus And in thye chapyter mayster More layth dyuerâ— other obieccyons to proue the sayde letter vnreasonable whych were very tedyouse to reherse at length And therfore I shall as shortely as I can touchâ— some of theym ¶ Ye knowe well ynough why they be tedyouse to reherse Surely bycause they be very tedyouse to answere But where he sayth he wil reherse some of theÌ„ he begynneth first to shew y t I had no cause to doute of his wordes wherin he sayth that the spyrytuall rulers pretende theyr authorytye to be so hygh so immediately deryued from god c. I hadde sayth he no cause to doute of what authoryte he ment For he sayth that his wordes were playn ynough y
chapyter of his is clerely wrested awry For as though he had all proued whâ—re all is dysproued he fynysheth hys chapyter thus And thus it appereth that maysâ—er More can neyther proue the suyte Ex. officio to be lyke to the arrestynâ—e of men for suspycyon of felonye for good aberynge to puttynge of men to answere vpon indytemeÌ„tes ne yet to them that may be accused by .xii. men and knowe not of it and thaâ— for the causes before remembred Wherfore it semeth that though it were clerely putte awaye the stretes shulde not swarme full of heretykes neuer a whyt ¶ This good man sayth here I can not proue any of al these thyngeê like But euery man may wel se that lyst to loke backe and rede it that there is not any one piece of all these that he speketh of but I haue very playnely proued it very lyke for y e purpose entent that I resemble it for And this shall euery man clerely se that wyll aduise pyece by pyece ¶ And therfore whyle vpon dyfferences dyuersytees that he putteth bytwen them such as let them not to be lyke in the thyng that I lyken theÌ„ for he bosteth in conclusyon y t I can not proue them lyke I shall shewe you what thyng now this bost of his is lyke ¶ If it had come in this good maÌ„nes hed to diuise a law and wryte a boke therfore to kyll vp all the band dogges thorow out all y e realmâ— wherin his tyme as vnwysely as it were bestowâ—d had not yet ben so ill spent as it hath ben in this and than wold lay for the cause y e bandogges do spende vitayle wyll somtyme byte folke to yf I wolde than wryte agaynsâ—e his wyse boke and say that he myght by that reason kyll vp houndeâ— and grayhouÌ„des all for they must eate to and wyll somtyme byte chyldren to but lykewyse yet as they maye not yet for all that be forborne bothe for the pleasure that they do and also for that they helpe to take vs some suche bestes of venory as men eate and hunte and kyll also suche other bestes and vermyn as ellys wolde destroye mych vytayle so the band-dogges may not be forborne neither for they both defende husband mennes howses fro theues helpe folke home with theyr bestes to somtyme such as wold not ellys come home now myghte this good man by this reason y t he vseth here write agayne defend his polytike deuice agaynst bandoggê therin answer me thus Fyrst y t for defence of folkes houses there shal nede no bandogges at all for men may make theyr seruauntes watche or make fast all theyr dorys and whan theâ—es wolde breke in defende theyr howses them selfe And as for suche bestes as wold not come home yf they be not ouer heuy they may bere them home and those that be to heuy to be borne home taye ropes to there taylys and drawe theym home And than myght he saye yet a lytell ferther and that is this that he merueiled mych y t I could for shame and fere of myne own conscyence resemble lyken together gentle houÌ„des or goodly greyhouÌ„des to such il fauored mastâ—ffes And thaÌ„ to proue them very farre vnlyke put his dyfferencê his dyuersitees and saye a mastyffâ— hath you wote well a great iolte hed a great mosel a thycke boystuouse body where as a greyhouÌ„d hath a ê“perhed with a goodly smal long snowt fayre long sleÌ„der sydê the houÌ„dê yet mych lesse lyke ¶ And theruppon myght he there coÌ„clude as he nowe concludeth here and saye thus ¶ And thus it appereth that maister More can neyther proue y e mastyfes to be lyke to y e greyhouÌ„des nor to the tother gentle houndes neyther and that for the causes before remeÌ„bred wherfore yt semeth that though all bandogges and mastiffes were clerely putte awaye yet mennys houses sholde be defended well inough and they re bestes broughte home well ynough to so they sholde so ¶ Now yf he ryally tryumphed vppoÌ„ this and thought he had auoyded me well I could no farâ—her go therin in good fayth but let him take that glorye to hym And surely wyth any wyse man that readeth ouer here in this chapyter both hys wordes and myne and one after a nother consydereth wherfore I resemble theym together shall fynde I dare boldely warraunt that wyth his dyfferencê and hys dyuersytees he wynneth lyke worshyppe in thys ¶ But now to turne agayn as I ê“mysed to the fyrste poynte that ys to wyt his deuise of open accusers coÌ„syder well this good chrysten reader that where as this good man in his boke of diuysyon where he wold haue the suit ex officio left of he theÌ„ reserued vs yet both open accusacyons and presentementes to put heretyques to answere vpon But nowe in this .xv. chapiter of his in his boke of Salem Bizance for fauour towarde the catholyque fayth he dyuyseth no more agaynst heretyques but open accusers alone and sayeth that open accusers shall suffycieÌ„tly serue the mater And vnto y t here y t I say and that euery man seeth that no maÌ„ wyll in heresy make hym self a ê‘tye by way of opeÌ„ accusyng therto saith thys good man nothynge ¶ He seeth perdy very well that in many thynges forboden by sondry statutes for the comen weale as agaynste the great excesse of apparell and some such other thynges y e law dothe inuyte and hyre euery man to thaccusynge of the brekers of y e same by geuynge theym the tone halfe of the forfaytoure And yet for all that as longe as many lawes as sore as haue ben made agaynste suche excesse of apparayle and as myche as some men myght haue wonne by the suyt yet howe fewe folke haue ben founden that haue taken those accyoÌ„s and therby accused those offenders the kynges courtes can declare and the lytle amendement may shew ¶ Ryottes be open thynges and enquyrable with paynes also set vpoÌ„ y e concelours yet many great ryottes go by vnfounde y e coÌ„celours neuer spokeÌ„ of a statut was there fayn to be made y t it myght be pursued punished by the kingê couÌ„sayle without presentement and that euen by suyte in maner ex officio to For though the partyes that made the ryot and the partye vppon whome yt was made were so well agreed agayne that neyther nother wolde by they re wylles haue the mater moued or any more spoken of it yet may the kyngê counsayle vpon secrete informacion cause the kynges atturney to make a byll of the ryot and put the partyes to answere and sende for what wytnesses they wyll ¶ Nowe thys man wyll not be so madde I trowe to lay me for a defference that in the suyte ex officio there is none accuser and that here the kynges atturney is For as I haue sayde byfore yf the spyrytuall courte sholde assygne in lyke wyse an offycer of they re owne
swereth contrary wyse to theyr bothe parell harme therfore in y â— case reason bereth y e law y t in such heyghnous crimes his secuÌ„d oth shold be receyued ¶ Here haue I shewed you a reason whych semeth me sufficient that bothe in heresye and felony the iudges sholde be content not withstandyng the fyrste othe in some case to suffer hym swere the contrary ¶ But now for the teÌ„poral courtes let vs put some case for a sample to se whyther y e iudges wolde yf y e case happed so here y e witnes again or not ¶ I wyl not put the case in treason wherin thâ—re wolde I wene be no dowte but that yf after his euydence gyuen vppon his othe in clerynge there the prysoner he happed euyn sodaynly there at the barre to repent hym selfe say that he was hyred to be forsworen that he was forsworen in dede than wolde tell another tale far coÌ„trary to y e fyrst ere euer he went fro the barre wold his tale not be herd trow you yes and the iury so desyrynge as peraduenture they wold the iudges wolde swere hym to I suppose and very good reason wolde bere it that they sholde ¶ But as I say let treason go and come but euyn vnto felonye If two or thre wytnessys wold at the barre excuse vppon theyr othes some one man of felony and afterward whan they were stepped fro the barre happed to be herde rowne and reioyce to gether that they had geuyn good euidence for acquytayle of theyr felow with whom them selfe had ben at the same robbery if they were sodaynly brought agayn to the iudges the iury not yet departed fro the barre and beynge seuerally questyoned in that sodayne abashement seynge y t god had so vttred theyr falshed bygan to haue remorce and came forth wyth y e trouth and agreed in the cyrcumstauÌ„ces and told all one tale confessynge both the prysoner them selfe gylty and wold be conteÌ„t to swere that this tale were trew conâ—rary to the othe y t they sware there byfore wolde not the iudges trowe you geue them the herynge yes yes I dowte not and the iury to ¶ And thus you se clerely good readers y t in this poynt if this man had wysely wrought he sholde haue geuen it ouer ¶ And now albe it y t here I myght ende this chapyter and haue no nede at all to go any ferther yet to the ferther openyng how lytell holde there is in the causes that he layeth of dyssymilitude vnlykenes bytwene the wytnessys brought into a spirituall court the wytnesses brought in to y e temporal for informacyoÌ„ of the iury I meruayle mych yf hym self know not that lyke as the iury may yf they se cause why way the wytnesses at lyght and quyte the prysoner for all the wytnesses wordes so may the ordynary do to For in his estymacyon the power lyeth to way and consider the qualytees of the wytnesses and all suche other cyrcuÌ„stauÌ„ces as may mynysshe or encreace theyr credence ¶ Ye and vnto the tother syde the wytnessys are not in the temporall courtes wayed and estemed so lyght but that the iury shall yf they byleue them not be somtyme dreuyn to yeld a good rekenynge why For though the wordes of the wytnestes be not entred in the recorde yet in attaynt they shall agayne be geuen in euydence agaynst the petyt iury and testyfye by the court and by the othes of them y t before herde them depose ¶ And thanne yf it appere vnto the graund iury in theyr conscyence that the petyt iury wylfully of some corrupte mynde regarded not the wytnessys and therfore in the geuyng of theyr verdycte passed agaynste theyr owne conscyence euery man well woteth that they shal be attaynted ¶ And necessyte hath also dreuen the kingê grace his couÌ„sayle for y e sure punyshmeÌ„t of felons to prouide y t yf the iury lykewyse regard the wytnessys so sleyghtly y t the iudges thynke they quyte the felon agaynste theyr own coÌ„scyence they bynde theÌ„ sometyme to appere before the kyngê couÌ„sayle And there haue there dyuerse iuryes bene proued so to haue myssevsed them self therin that they haue ben punysshed therfore ¶ Now wyll I good readers come vnto that piece which as a thyng all redy coÌ„futed of it self vnworthy to be touched I wold haue passed ouer not ones vowchsafed to write one word therin sauyng y t I se him to haue takeÌ„ such labour therabout y t he semeth to wene y t he hath defended it well whiche whither he haue well defended or not your selfe shal good readers iudge These were his wordes in his boke of diuision Thys is a daungerous law and more lyke to causâ— vntrew and vnlawful men to condempne innocenteâ— then to condempne offenders And it helpeth lytell that yf there be tokens that it is not done of hatered nor for corrupcyon of money that it shold be taken for somtyme a wolfe may shew hym selfe in the apparell of a lambe And yf the iudge be parâ—yall such tokens maye be soneâ— accepted then trewly shewed ¶ To thys pyece these were my wordes in myne apology folio 229. Syth euyll folke vse not to make good folke of theyr counsayle in doynge of theyr euyll dedes those that are done sholde passe vnpunyshed mo lyke be commytted a fresshe but yf they were receyued for recordes to theyr condempnynge that were of theyr counsayle and parteners to the doynge whyâ—he kynde of folke wyll not lette to swere twyse naye before they confesse ones ye and yet theyr one ye more trewe vppon theyr bare worde than theyr twyse naye vppon a solempne o th and yet confesse they not so symply but that it is comenly holpen with some suche cyrcuÌ„stauÌ„ces as make the mater more clere Nowe se you well that as hym selfe sheweth the lawe prouydeth well agaynste all lyght receyuynge of such confessyon And yet thys pacyfyer sayth that all that helpeth lytle bycause the iudge may be parcyall and the wytnesse maye be a wolfe shewynge hym selfe apparelled in the apparell of a lambe whych apperynge in apparell pore men that can not apparel theyr speche with apparell of retoryke vse comenly to cal a woulfe in a lambes skynne But what order may serue agaynst suche obieccyons what place is there in this world spyrituall or temporal of whyche the iudge maye not haue some saye that he is or at the lest wise as he sayth here maye be parcyall And therfore not onely such wytnesse shold be by this reason of his reiected in heresye treason murder or felony but also by his other reson of a woulf in a lambes skynne all maner of wytnes in euery mater For i euery mater may it happeÌ„ y â— he y â— semeth a lambe may be in dede a wolf and be nought where he semeth good swere false where he semeth to say trew And therfore this patche of this pacifyer coÌ„cernynge witnesse euery wyse man may
bere wytnesse that there is lytle witte therin and lesse good wolde growe therof yf folke wolde folowe his inuencyon and make of the lawes a chaunge ¶ Now that you haue good reders hâ—rd what we saye bothe before Now shall you se how substancially this man defendeth his fyrst wordes agayne These are so in this xvi chapyter of hys newe boke hys wordes Nowe by reason of this obieccyon I wyll speke somwhat father in thys mater then I dyd in the sayde treatyse And fyrste I wyll saye thus that yf ys to me a great meruayle to se mayster More so faire ouerseen or elâ—ys yf he be not oâ—â—rseen therin that then he wolde yf he coulde deceyue other and make theym so farre ouerseen to byleue that yt shulde be one lyke reason of a periured wytnesse that wyll loke lyke a lambe and saye contrarye to that he hathe deposed before and of a wytnesse that cometh to depose in a matter that he was neuer yet sworne vppon For when a wytnesse ys broughte in that was neuer sworen vppon the mater byfore the iudge maye not by the lawe refuse hym nor iudge any defaulte in hym oneles he knowe a suffycyent cause hym selfe in that behalfe or that the partyes do alledge yt but he muste byleue that he ys honeste good and indyffâ—rent tyll the contrarye be shewed as euery man ys in charytye bounde to do of hys neyghbour But when a wytnesse hathe deposed in the courte and then wyll offre hym selâ—e to depoâ—e to the contrarye that he sayde byfore the iudge maye wyth good conscyence mystruste and thynke that he doth yt of lyghtnes of mynde hatered or for corâ—upcyon of money ¶ If I were in thys poynte ouersene I nede not greately to be ashamed of the ouersyghte For then hathe there bene many suche other men ouersene also as I wolde not wyshe to be wyser And I no more entende to deceyue other men in thys mater thanne many other haue entended that vsed and allowed thys thynge that I defende now byfore such men as wyth the coÌ„dycyon that I were neuer worse I wolde neuer wyshe to be better This maÌ„ maketh as though it were great shame for me to liken to gether a person ones periured and a person that was neuer yet ones sworen I wolde in dede be a shamed to lyken theym to gether in euery poynte all though there were no more dyffereÌ„ce betwene theym but that the tone had a longe nose and the tother a shorte But I am not mych ashamed to say that for some purpose where he speketh of the tone I maye speke of the tother and lyken them well ynough to gether For I may say as I said that lyke wise as he that hath for sworen hym selfe may fayne hym selfe to saye trew and loke lyke a lambe and yet be a woulfe in dede euyn so I saye maye he that neuer was sworen byfore ¶ Ye sayth thys man but yet these two be not lyke For he that was neuer sworen there is no cause to mystruste nor presume that he wyl play the woulfe in a lambes skynne But he that hath bene forsworen is of reason to be mystrusted and yt is to be presumed y t he wyll play the woulfe in a lambes skynne ¶ Marke yet in the meane whyle y â— yf I could make no father answere yet hadde I wonne and he loste For his fyrst wordê were in his boke of dyuysyon that he that confesseth hym selfe forsworen shold in no case be receyued to swere agayne the contrarye bycause that though there seme a good cause to byleue hym in his seconde othe yet yt maye be that he dothe but fayne and I sayde so may he to fayne and dyssemble that neuer was sworen byfore And then yf the onely power and habylyte to fayne were a cause suffycient to put any oue man from berynge witnesse vppon his othe euery man were by reason repelled for euery man ys able to fayn This was as you se y e thynge that I then sayde Whyche thynge neyther this maÌ„nor any man elles is able to confute nor proue the forsworen man and the man vnsworen vnlyke in the poynte that I lykened them that is to wit in powre and abylyte to fayne And farther then that went not I. For I had no farther cause in answerynge hym there whyle he wente no farther there nor sayde none other but that he that was forsworen may fayne And nowe reade your selfe his wordes and loke whyther I say trewe ¶ But nowe thys beynge proued as yt is proued playne that he hathe a fall in those wordes whyche he spake byfore let vs a lytle se whyther wyth thys leysour after hys mater agayne consydered a freshe he haue caughte any better holde now And surely me thynketh not one whyt ¶ For where hys newe reason resteâ—h in thys that he whyche confesseth hym selfe ones forsworen is by reason mystrusted as one not onely to be able to swere false and wylyly cloke hys falshed vnder a colour of trouthe but also presumed that he so wyll do in dede to thys I saye that he sayeth trouthe as longe as there is no greater presumpcyon on the tother syde to serue for hys seconde othe But when the case happeth that there is as yt happeth in the case of this lawe than ys the presumpcyon that he wyll swere false gone as I shewed you byfore And then that presumpcion by a greater presumpcion beyng purged this man forworne and the man vnsworn are in the thynge that I resembled them for waxen well lyke agayne And that the sayde presumpcyon ys purged I shewed you byfore in that it is now a greater presumpcyon for his seconde othe that he wyll not foâ—swere hym selfe to the parell of his frende and hym selfe to ¶ Then goeth he farther and enforceth his reason with the reason of the lawe before y e peragraph Licet was made And therin thus he sayth In so mych that byfore that parag Licet was made the iuge myght none otherwise haue done of iuâ—â—yce but to haue refused to haue taken any farther examynacyon of hym And yf he hadde and the other had sayde contrarye to that he hadde sayde byfore hyâ— saynge hadde ben voyde in the lawe ¶ And thys thynge wherwyth he thynketh his reason made the sâ—renger maketh his reason a great deale febler For whyle the generall rule of refusynge suche wytnesse in all cases was made so longe byfore it appereth playnely that necessyte found the faute and caused oute of the generall rule this case to be made an excepcyon and so the lawe made by better delyberacyon ¶ And in such other horible crymes the same lawe is vsed in temporall courtê and was also before that law made by the chyrche ¶ But agaynste all thys yet thys man maketh me this reason what the makers of the sayde peragragh ment to put into the dyscrecyon of the iudge that yf he saw by euydent tokens that yt is not done of lyghtnesse
rebuke of so many good worshypfull men make a boke of diuisyoÌ„ therin write euery lewde worde that any lewde folke or any false shrewes wolde tell hym Whose euyll tonges the spyrytualtye can neuer appease but yf to please theÌ„ they sholde dysplease god and without lettynge heresyes growe and go forth shold them selfe rather do euyll than let lewde folke speke euyll ¶ And now to th entent good reders that you may the more clerely se to how lytell purpose the pacifyer hath in thys poynt answered me ye shall vnderstande that my wordes in myn apology whiche he wold seme to answere well here were these fo 257. But yet is thys pacyfyer not so fauourable towarde folke suspected of heresye as to take away the power of the byshoppe for euer of arrestynge them and to dryue the ordynaryes for euer to sue cytacyons agaynst heretykes and processe of excommunicacyon but wyll haue he sayeth the bysshoppes power of arrestynge no lenger suspended thanne as longe as spyrytuall menne haue that great desyre to cause menne abiure or to haue theym punysshed for heresye as though he hadde well proued that they haue so bycause he sayeth that some men say so But now yf Some say be no sufficyent profe than is hys tale lost For than he sheweth no cause why that power of theyrs sholde in any case be more suspeÌ„ded now than in any time here before And on the tother syde yf some say be a good profe than the â—uspendynge wyll be as longe as a depryuynge for euer syth there shall neuer be any tyme in whyche there shall lacke one or other some saye to saye more than trouth ¶ Lo good readers here you se that vnto the secunde parte of these wordes of myne he answereth nothynge at all And than haue you sene before that vnto the fyrste hys answere is so feble that it had ben better for him to haue done therwyth as he dothe wyth the tother leue it vnanswered to ¶ But nowe goeth he ferther and saith Then sayth mayster More yet ferther that which is a lyghte suspycyon and whyche is a heuy and whyche wytnes be suffycyent and whych not must be weyed by the spyrytuall iudges and vppon theyr weyinge of the mater for lyght or heuy to folowe the arrest of the party or the leuynge of the arrest Now veryly in thys poynt me thynketh that mayâ—â—er More maketh a ryght good mocyon that is to saye that the mater shulde be examyned before the arreste For it hath ben sayd in tymes paste that in suche caâ—e the arrest hath many tymes gone before the examynacion Neuerthelesse vnder what maner the examynacyon and the arrest shulde be made in suche case I wyll make no deuyse at this tyme For happely mayster More wold anone fynde a defawt at it and therfore I wyll leane it to them that haue auctoryte to treate ferther of it and to dyuyse how to auoyde the mase that mayster More speketh of in hys sayd .xlvi. chapyter ¶ Now good readers this man maketh here as though I hadde geuen hym in my wordes some greate aduauntage to grouÌ„de some great mater vppon And therfore I shall reherse you what my wordê were that your selfe maye se how sore I ouersaw my selfe therin and what he meneth by the mase that he nameth here These are lo my wordes in myne apologye fo 257. yet is he content at the laste leste euery man myghte spye the perell of hys deuyce to temper hys deuyce in suche wyse that tyll the spyrytualty haue lefte theyr cruell desyre of abiurynge and punysshynge folke for heresye they sholde not be suffred to arreste folke for euery light suspycyon or euery complaynt of heresye How be it he graunteth that where one is openly and notably suspected of heresye and suffycyeÌ„t recorde and wytnes agaynst hym bysydes all that a dowte that he wolde fle wherby he myghte enfecte other than he grauÌ„teth it conuenyent that he shold be arrested by the body And therin he bryngeth in the Clementine and the statute by whcih the ordinaries haue power to arrest folâ—e for suspycyon of heresye and wold as farre as I perceyue haue the kynge reforme them after hys deuyce But yet syth whych is a lyght suspycyoÌ„ and whych is an heuy and whych is a lyght coÌ„playnt and whych is an heuy and whych is an open suspycyon and whyche but a preuy and whyche suspycyon ys notable and whyche is not notable and whyche wytnesses be suffycyent and which be not suffycyent be thynges that must be wayed by the spyrytuall iudges and vppon theyr wayâ—nge of the mater for lyght or heuy muste folowe the arrestynge of the party or the leuynge of the arreste we be come agayne as in a mase to the poynt where we beganne that be the mater greate or smale lest all the whyle they be cruell they shold iudge lyghte heuy and smale greate theyr arrestynge of any at all muste be susspended fro them and sende them to sue by cytacyon tyll men se that same mynde of theyrs of desyryng mennes abiuracyon and punysshement vtterly chaunged and ceace that is to say tyll there be no man lefte that wyll so mysche as saye that some men saye that they haue not lefte that mynde yet and make a lye agayne of theym than as those some haue done that haue so sayde all redy to syr IohnÌ„ some say now And longe wyll it be I warraunt you ere euer all suche folke fayle And therfore syth in the mean season by thys pacyfyers good deuyse hereâ—tykes maye go vnarrested I can not byleue that yf his way were folowed it wold be any good meane to make that wylful offenders in heresy shold not passe vnpunysshed as faste as bothe in the ende of thys chapyter the tother before also he calleth vpoÌ„ the kynges hyghnes and hys counsayle and hys parleament to loke vppon thys mater after his good aduertysement and neuer ceace tyll they brynge it to effecte ¶ Here you se good readers bycause thys man wyth hys deuyces bryngeth hym selfe into a mase out of whyche he can not se how to gete he wold now set other folke to study there about And wolde make theym very carefull aboute a thynge lytle nedefull For it hath well appered well ben proued to that the spyritual iuges haue yet hytherto in arrestyng for heresy ryght well examyned and considered fyrst bothe the cause and the necessyte haue ben rather therin many tymes to slow than any tyme ouer hasty And therfore I maye and wyll say here agayn as I sayd there that I lytell dowte but that yf the kynges hyghnes do as I dowte not but his hyghnes wyll do maynteyne and assyste the spyrytualty in executyng of the lawes euyn those y t are all redy made agaynst heresyes coÌ„maunde euery teÌ„porall officer vnder hym to do y e same for his part though ther were neuer mo new laues made therfore yet shall both innocentes be saued harmelesse
well inough offendours punyshed to ¶ To thys coÌ„meth forth this good maÌ„ in this wise Now veryly to those wordes of mayster More I dare say thus that mayster More or he had spoken tho wordes had occasyon by reasonable coniecture to haue doubted more at the mater thenne he hath done and to haue thought it very lyke that yf the same lawes shulde sâ—onde as do nowe in euery poynt concernynge heresye that many innocentes that be not gylty myghte vppon suspeccyon of heresy be dryuen to pourge theym selfe after the wyll of the ordynarye and yet be not gyltyâ— ye and ouer that mayster More myghte haue reasonably doubted as I suppose in conscieÌ„ce he ought to haue doubted more then he hath done that somtyme innocenteâ— myghte happen vppon the suyte Ex officio or vppon lyght complayntes by fauour of offycers or â—ppon malyce or dyspleasure be arrested before examinacyon and yet mayster More hym selfe assenteth that the examynacyon shulde be before the arreste And he myghte haue doubted also that some innocentes myght by suche periured persons as be aboue rehersed in thys chapyter be somtyme condempned And therfore the sayde wordes of mayster More wherby he taketh vppon hym to saye as it were in hys owne auctoryte to performe it that innocentes by the same lawes as be all redy made for heresye shal be saued harme lesse well inough myght happeÌ„ to be of small effect to helpe an innocent man or woman that shulde happen to be wrongfully troubled in tyme to come agaynst hys wordes before rehersed ¶ Now verily to all these wordê of this good maÌ„ I dare say thus that I whaÌ„ I wrote the wordê had yet haue very good coÌ„iecturs to put litle dowt therin For though I myghte thynke y t this harme and this harme myghte happe yet syth I haue well sene it proued y t the spyritual iudges haue vsed theÌ„ self iÌ„ these maters not onely so truly but ouer y t also so fauorably y t no maÌ„ can ê“ue in this realm suche harmes to haue happed yet but where as such thynges haue ben of late surmysed the trouth hath ben well proued contrary byfore the kyngâ—s honorable counsayle I had and haue very good cause to thynke that as they haue done well hytherto so shall they well do hereafter ¶ And syth all thys good mannes grownd is no more to take away wel approued lawes with but y e harme maye happe sometyme to some good man therby whyche reason he maye make agaynst the beste lawe that all the worlde can make I dare be bold to warraunt that that colde reason so feruentely sette forthe in suche a weyghty mater is not well worthe a ryshe ¶ And yf men wolde go aboute to chauÌ„ge these old long proued lawes I wolde as my duyte is praye god geue them y e grace to make the chauÌ„ges good but for that lytle wyt that I haue I veryly byleue and thynke that â—f any chaunges be made rather more slacke then streighter then shal the chaunges be made rather farre worse then better And thus ende I good readers this good mannys xvii chapyter The .xviii. chapyter HIs .xviii. chapyter begynneth fo lxix Wherin he begiÌ„neth first wyth the ca. vt inquisitionis negocium li. vi wherby yt appereth that all lordes and rulers temporall be prohyhyted that â—ey shall not in any maner take knowâ—edge or iuge vppon heresye And vpâ—on this hym self addeth vnto it in hiâ—â—oke of dyuysyon that he y â— enquyretâ— of heresy taketh knoweledge of herâ—â—y and y t him selfe sayth not so alone but that Summa Rosella sayth so to And hereuppon he concludeth that yt sholde seme that all the iustyces of the peace be excommunycate and al stewardes in letys all enquestes to as many as medle wyth all For whether in letys they may or not that he sayth he dowteth but he sayth y t I say they may but he telleth not where I say so nor as I veryly thynke he neuer founde yt in any boke of myne I saye in myne apologye fo 227. that in euery lete they do so whyther they lawfully so maye do or not thereof speke I nothynge all be yt I thynke they may well ynough bothe wythout offence of the kynges lawe or parell of câ—rsynge eyther ¶ For I lytle doute but that â—here were of the clergye at the mâ—kynge of the statute mo men then â—e y t vnderstode Summa Roselâ— as well as thys good man doth yf Summa Rosella were then made and in mennys handes ¶ And I doute not also as lytle but y t there were at those days in the clergye mo then one that were of counsayle in the makynge of the statute that vnderstode the chapyter vt inquisitionis as wel as this mam doth and as well as he that made SuÌ„ma Rosella to And that they well vnderstode that the sayde chapyter ment of suche inquysytours and suche inquysycyons as they make that are in the corps of the lawe called Inquisitores heretice prauitatis of whyche there are in some places specyall offycers to enquyre procede and do therin as thordynaryes do and ment not of such inquyrours and suche inquysycyons as do none other wise inquyre but onely by way of informacyon to brynge the mater to the ordynaryes knowledge ¶ For as for the minour of this good mannys argumeÌ„t that he that enqnyreth of heresye taketh knowledge of heresye so dothe euery denouncer euery accuser and in a maner euery wytnesse to take vppon theym knowledge of heresye in some maner wise for they take vppon theym as they well maye that thys thynge or that thynge is heresye But thys is not the knowlege that the law forbedeâ—h but the knowledge that we call holdynge ple vpon yt whyche our inquysycyons do not but onely serue to brynge the mater to the ordynaryes handes whyche ellys sholde peraduenture not haue herde therof ¶ And for thys cause to be sure that by these inquysycyons no man shold fall in daunger of any examynacyon yt was substancially prouyded in the sayde statute y t thynquistcyoÌ„ and the endyghtemeÌ„t of heresye shold serue the ordynarye nothynge to the procedynge in the mater but that he shold begynne hys processe agaynste the partye a freshe wythoute layenge that endyghtement vnto hys charge ¶ And therfore where as this good man by the hygh authorite of SuÌ„ma Rosella denounceth here al the iustyces of peace accursed I dare be bold by the hyghe authoryte of Summa Angelica to denounce them all assoyled agayne And therfore where as this good man wenynge that he had well wonne hys spurrys in thys poynte tryumpheth vppon me and sayâ—th And to thyâ— lawe mayster More anâ—wereth not But passeth yt â—uer as a thynge that â—â— yt semeth he lytâ—e regardeth but onely that he sayth that the lawes of thys realme and of holy chyrche in heresyes maye well stande to gether for oughte that he seeth And yet yt appereth that vppon thys lawe they do