being one of the newe reformers as is the spirit of humilitie frome the spirit of pride and contempte which is the onely guide of all those whoe reiect and impugne the Roman doctrine in all points of controuersie Finally in those wordes cited by Sir HuÌ„frey out of Gersons Apolotgeticall dialog wheras the author speakes in the case of scisme when the true Pope was not certainely knowne and cheefely of one particular point to wit of the condemnation of that proposition a tyranne may be lawfully killed by priuate authoritie or by anie priuate man the deceitfull knight soe applyes the wordes as if Gerson had generally dispared of the reformation of the Church and the more easily to persuade his reader he omittes the wordes hac tempestate and those rebus vt sunt manentibus Gersons wordes truly rehearsed are these video quod in doctrinis quae religionem quae bonas salubres respiciunt mores vix inuenietur in hac tempestate rebus vt sunt manimentibus nec habito forti fauore potentiae saecularis terminatio debita vel expedita iustitia Which wordes if the reader compares them with the wordes cited in English by the knight he will easily spye more faultes then I haue noted And then from heÌ„ce and the rest which I haue produced touching the whole allegation of Gerson he will be able to iudge both of the false deiling of our aduersarie how smale reason he had to indeuore to make that famous and renowned Romanist one of the blind brothers of his inuisible Congregation But now for conclusioÌ„ plainer intellectioÌ„ or vnderstanding of that which I haue said touching this author the reader must take noticie that Gerson liued in a tyme of a great scisme rased by the erroneous election of diuers Popes by diuers partes of the faction by reason of which strife finding in his iudgement no other meanes to bring matters to a peaceable issue and attonemeÌ„t then by giuinge greater authoritie to a generall Councell then to the Pope he preferred the power of a Councel before the authoritie of the Pope which scisme alsoe was the true cause why he likewise seemed to dispare of the reformatioÌ„ of the Church and therfore he labored to haue a generall Councell vnder one Pope by occasion of which desire he writ his treatie intituled De CoÌ„cilio vnius obedieÌ„tiae to deliberate the coÌ„posing of the Ecclesiasticall debate a and Papal dissentioÌ„ all which is by himselfe clearely deliuered in seuerall places of his workes and particularly in his Apolageticall dialog fol. 75. saying hoc vnum scio quod zelus hahendae vnionis in scismate tam desperato tantique temporis fecit multa tolerari quae fuissent aliunde nec tolerabilia nec toleranda c. And now by this it is sufficiently cleare that Gerson is not for the new reformation of moderne sectaries in anie one pointe of doctrine or manners In his citation of Cusanus lib. 3. concod Cath. cap 16. the kinght hath in his owne page 378. 8. 9. of the by way notably corrupted him for he reheareses his wordes without anie order alsoe quite contrarie to his sense meaning as that authors owne wordes most euidently conuince in his 17. chapter following where he hath this plaine clause Ecce quod de pertinentibus ad religionem Imperator inter Episcopos iudicare non debet Et in his 18. chapter he saith thus Firmitas autem iudicij omnium quae ita aguntur in concilio per quoscunque ex consensu tantum synodica dependent authoritate Quare etsi aliquando sententiasse iudices tales leguntur ex cousensu synodica commissione vigor sententiae dependebat non ex imperiali coÌ„missione cuius authoritas synodum virilem non praecellit Thus much Cusanus touching iudicatiue authoritie in generall councels which as is plaine by these wordes doth not depend vpon the Emperor It is true Cusanus grauntes I knowne not how truely that he fyndes the Emperor did alwayes praesidere that is preced or take the first place in the councels but he doth not say as Sir Humfrey feysteth in primatum habuit he had the primacie But onely graunteth the Emperor his Iudges with the senate locall preheminence before the Pope or at the most depending on the Pope councell as his whole discourse in diuers chapters of the booke cited by the kingth manifestely declare And coÌ„cerning the coÌ„gregation or conuocation of generall Councels it is almost euident out of the precedent chapters of the same booke that this author grauÌ„tes no Primacie to the Emperor but cheefely to the Pope For altou ' in the begining of the 13. chapter he hath these expresse wordes ex superioribus habetur Imperatores sanctos congregationes synodales vniuersalis concilij totius Ecclesiae seÌ„per fecisse Yet preseÌ„tly after explicaing him selfe better he saith Breuiter dico quod ita se habet Imperator ad vniuersaleÌ„ Ecclesiae Catholicae synodum sicut Rex ad vniuersale Regni sui concilium non quad coactiue sed cohortatiue colligere debet And yet more plainely presently after Vigilare dehet Imperator fidei pacis custos Romani Pontificis primo synodi necessitatem insinuare eius consensum congregandi concilij in definito loco requirere By all which it doth manifestly appeare how shamelessely the kinght abuseth Cusanus how smale reason he had to produce his testimonie for the Popes vsurpation as he termeth it both in calling assuming preheminence of place dignitie in Councels supposing that author as being Cardinall of the Popes creation soe professedly maintaines his authoritie both in the resolutorie assembling coÌ„firming of generall synods And if the reader desire greater satisfactioÌ„ concerning the doctrine of this author aboute the Popes authoritie in Councels let him please to read his epistle to Roderic he will easily perceiue howe plainely he purgeth himself from all sinister imputation in that nature and that if perhaps in his immature age when he writ his Catholique concordance by reason of the great fame which he conceiued of the Councel of Basill he inconsiderately vttered anie thing which might seeme to diminish the power of rhe Bishop of Rome in respect of a generall Councell yet afterwardes perceiuing that those whoe preferred the authoritie of Councels before the authoritie of the cheefe Bishop pastor the Church proceeded soe farre as to attempt the election of the Antipope Foelix against the true Pope Eugenius then presently he repented him self that he had soe much extolled their schismatticall syond imitating in this both Cardinall Iulian Aeneas syluius whoe both of them in the begining defended the Councell of Basill against Eugenius the true Pope yet in the end retracting their action maintained most earnestly his authoritie against tâ—e same synod That which is sufficient to manifest the inconsideration ignorance insynceritie of Sir Humfrey in his production of this author whoe suppose he had deliuered
is but onelie one in which it can be sayd with anie coulourable probabilitie that sainct Gregorie in anie of the places heere cited doth contradict the doctrine of the Roman Church that is the point of the Canon of the scriptures in which patricular althou ' he refused to giue the bookes of Machabees the title of Canonicall scripture as yet S. Augustine others did before him the rest of the writers for the most parte euer since haue donne whether it were because he ment onelie they were not contained in the Canon of the Iewes or for that the whole Church had not then declared them for Canonicall vnder that name Neuerthelesse he is not to be iudged more repugnant to the doctrine of the present Roman Church in that point then those who notobstanding that in the primitiue Church certaine bookes of the new Testament as the epistle to the Hebrewes others were doubted of yet now with infallible certaintie faith receaue them for diuine sacred scripture althou ' they were not accounted beleiued for such by all the orthodoxall Fathers of the Church in all former ages since the time of the Apostles who firste published them to the world Especiallie considering that the same sainct Gregorie neuer denyed neyther in the place cited nor in anie other of his workes but that as the declaration of the Church was sufficient to assure all faithfull people that those bookes of which before his dayes there had binne doubt were then trulie Canonicall scripture thou ' not knowne for such in euerie age before him so might the same succeeding Church in later times determine the like of those bookes which in his time so generallie vndoubtedlie were not as yet held for such Neyther according to the rules of diuinitie can that man be reputed not to be of the same religion of which another is because he now beleaueth some thing more in the materiall obiect of faith then the other did in that time in which he liued but at the most it can onelie be truelie verified that he hath the same habit of faith thou ' some what more extended in the obiect as neyther the Apostles were of a diuerse faith when they were firste instructed by Christe before his passion from that they had after his resurrection when yet doubtlesse they receaued more expresse extensiue knowledge in matters of faith then before they had receiued And sure I am S. Gregorie without exception cites both the booke of Tobie Ecclesiasticus sapience most frequentlie none of which bookes neuerthelesse the misreformers admit for the worde of God And till Sir Humfrey or some of his associates can produce out of S. Augustin S. Gregorie as plaine pregnant places either for his owne tenets or against the Roman doctrine as the Romanists haue long since produced for theirs as their workes vpon euerie seuerall controuersie make apparent let them for shame neuer claime them for theirs in anie one point of controuersie for notobstanding they make a plausible vse of some fewe patches of their more ambiguous ill construed ill related sentences yet turne but the iudicious vnpartiall reader to the bookes them selues he will ingenuouslie confesse absolutelie crye a loud all is ours And if it would please his maiestie of his royall clemencie to suffer vs freelie to make tryall of our cause by scripture Fathers I knowe which side would be founde minus habens manie graines to light But it is our great miserie yet in one sense our great happines to be so crossed curbed with seueritie of tēporal lawes that we cannot be safe in the most priuate corners much lesse can we appeare in any publike assemblie for defense of our Religion Vid. Bell. in quatuor Cōtr. tom valēt Anales fid But yet supposing that S. Gregorie had binne contrarie in that particular of the bookes of Machabies for touching the rest mentioned by the knight he is sufficientlie cleered from that imputation by Bellarmine other Romanists yet could it not possiblie proue that monstrous great proposition of our aduersarie to wit that S. Gregorie in his vndoubted writings directlie opposeth the Romish faith in the maine pointes thereof consequentlie from hence it manifestlie appeereth how farre Sir Humfrey hath walked by the way when in the end of his eleauenth section he auouched his reader should plainlie discerne how the later Popes Bishops doe differ from the former how these two Fathers of the Church meaning sainct Augustine sainct Gregorie concurre expresselie with the doctrine professed in the reformed Churches different from the Roman it being most apparent by the premisses that by anie thing which he hath heere produced out of the foresayd Fathers he hath neyther proued anie one point of his owne religiō nor disproued ours but hath onelie prestigiouslie deluded the eyes of the reader with a coulorable florish yet in realitie remaineth still in the same byway in which he hath hitherto walked separate from the royall street of the ancient Doctors of the primitiue Church Sec. 14. The next section being the fourteenth is that the ingenuous Romanists confesse that the Councells which they oppose against the Reformers were neyther called by lawfull authoritie nor to the right ends Heere I finde that to be most true which a pleasant Protestant pronounceth of the Puritans sayeing their religion willinglie admitts no founder but Bragger they flourished much about a time And in sober sadnes the best Sir Humfrey can make of his aduersaries confession throu ' out his whole worke in fauour of his doctrine doth nothing more then plainlie conuince him to be of no other progenie Neyther doe their confessions fit his purpose anie better then if he should put his shooes vpon his handes or his hose vpon his head A patterne of this you may see in this verie section in which how soeuer he vaunteth of the confession of his aduersaries that by two principall conditions as he sayth ancientlie in vse for the authoritie of Councells are both acknowledged to be abrogated by later Councells to wit because quoth the knight now a dayes the Pope calls Councells without right he his assemble them in their owne name for their owne ends for proofe of which calumnious position he cites but onely two authors those scarce held for sound mettle among the Romanists neyther yet doth eyther of them plainlie auerre his position as it is vttered by him but they onelie speake by way of reprehension of such abuses as might be practised in that nature by the malice of men without taxing the Pope or anie other in particular as the knight would maliciouslie inferre out of their wordes for the confirmation of the sinister opinion he hath of the Church of Rome her head in earth The rest which he hath in this section is but eyther his owne bare assertions those not true as that from
other Councell for it pag. 208. l. 20. to people adde as euer so to receiue it by Christs commaunde p. 265. for thrice reade once p. 240. lin 6. to Christ adde humane nature p. 239. for reconciliatiōs reade reconciliationis p. 287. for dignitie reade decorum p. 202. l. 7. omit other l. 27. to exhibited add by it selfe page 307. to not determined by the Church adde in euerie particular pag. 317. to illegitimate adde concerning the doctrine of images p. 371. to diuine worship add in spirit pa. 447. l. 16. for in reade since pa. 463. for thim reade him in the next l. 10. for may chalenge reade may in that respect chalenge p. 467. l. 17. adde in respecte of the people p. 433. lin 16. for able reade agreable omit su pag. 438. lin 13. for to whome reade yet p. 475. for conference reade cōfidence p. 485. l. 16. for heresie reade material heresie p. 480. for martyrs reade examples p. 493. l. 26. consequence adde to this purpose p. 566. l. 24. to soundes adde including the prayers p 546. l. 8. to glorious adde flashe l. 26. for gaspell reade Gospell p. 545. l. 2. reade Pamphleter p. 421. l. 18. omit in a visible maner In the introduction to the Appendix Page 73. line 10. adde defined l. 3. for false reade safe p. 19. l. 20. omit either in the next l. reade workes l. 24. to some of adde them Besides these neglects I aduertise the reader of an other faulte committed in the omission of titles for the distinct matters Neuerthelesse this defect is sufficiently supplied in regarde that in the commencement or entrance of euerie seuerall period the contents are breefely declared There be manie other errors of lesse importance committed by the printer as being a strāger as Nice with a great letter the like which the discretion and iudgement of the reader will easily correct In like manner he will perdone the rudnes of the style as penned by one whoe by reason of his absence daylie conuersation with strangers ignoreth the propertie of his natiue language As also he will conniue his tardance in the publication of the worke which if it had not incountered vnimagined impediments might haue appeared manie monethes paste THE FIRST PERIOD THIS Period shall containe the first and second sections of S. Humfreys way and I resolued to ioyne them together by reason I finde litle matter of doctrine in them as being rather in the nature of preamble or introduction and consequently of too small substance for a scholler to insist vpon In his first section he purposed to prooue and disprooue the bitternesse of the Church of Roome towards the reformed Churches but he bringeth verie little or nothing to that purpose onely citing for his demonstration of the same some vnchristian speeches as he tearmeth them vttered by father Campian in his first reason She tearmes vs saith S. Humfrey meaning the Roman Church Heretiques Hellhounds of Zwinglius Luthers whelpes Turkish Hugonotes damned persons and worse then Infidells which wordes if they weare truly related I must needes confesse include no small acrimony but I hauing diligently read ouer on purpose Campians first reason I finde not them all there nay nor yet the greater part of them nor any other equiualent vnto them I finde indeede he speaketh sharpely against Luther and Caluin and he tearmeth them and others whom he citeth Quid ille nunc diceret si viueret in terris Lutheros Caluinosque concerneret opifices Bibliorum qui sua lima politula elegantula vetus nouumque testamentum esse raserint Quid Lutheri Catulis vt Tobiam Ecclesiasticum Machabaeos horum odio complures alios ea calumnia comprehensos è syncero canone repente dispungerent c. Quae quidem Ecclesia custos huius depositi non magistra quod haeretici cauillnatur thesaurum hunc vuluersum quem Synodus Tridentina est amplexa vetustissimus olim concilij publicitus vendicauit c. Castatio mysticum illud Salomonis Canticum c. Nihilo pluris quam cantilenamed amicula cum pedissequis autor colloquium amatorium venereus furcifer aestimauit Camp rat 1. heretiques for their mangling the holy scriptures according to their owne priuate Spirits but he hath not one bitter worde against the persons of any sectaries of his owne Countrie but onely iustly reprehendeth the Nouelists in generall for rheir abuse of the worde of God But suppose Father Campian had vsed such speeches indeede what then do not the reformers themselues most frequently both in their writings and pulpits vse farre worse tearmes both against the Romanists and the Roman Church do not they accuse both her and her members of Idolatrie Superstition and Antichristianity exaggerating matters with all the satyricall phrases they can inuent as euen in this very place doth appeere where S. Humfrey himselfe rayling not onely against the particular members of the Roman Church but also against her sacred selfe charging her to haue lost her breasts or at least to giue her children little or no sincere milke out of her two breasts the two testaments and that she doth dayly practise spirituall fornication and that she hath plaid the Harlot with a greate H. and finally taxing her that she mainetayneth and practiseth manifest and manifould Idolatry and that her title is vsurpation her deuotion is superstition and she her selfe a professed enemy to the ghospell from whence you may inferre what a sencelesse blindenesse this was in the knight to dedicate the first chapter of his booke to the disproouing of the bitternes of the Roman Church he himselfe hauing spent a greate parte of it in rayling against her and also you may perceaue how importunely he accuseth her of malignitie and want of desire to quench the vnquenchable broyles of the Church as he tearmeth them whilest he himselfe through his exasperating speches asmuch as in him lyeth putteth no small impediment to the extinguishing of the same as the reader may plainely perceaue and notwithstanding he compareth the Roman Church and his owne to two sisters which comparison allthough it be very fond and absurd in it selfe for that the true Church being but one onely spouse of Christ she can admitte no sister nor Corriuall according to the meaning of the holy Spirit in the Canticles affirming his spouse to be one VNA ES SPONSA MEA neuertheles he must needes be conuinced to haue proceeded most preposterously in this matter and contrary to all reason in that hee intending or at least pretending to shew there ought to be loue vnion betwene them as betwene two sisters descending from one and the same catholique and vniuersall mother as he calleth her yet as it were with one the same breath he accuseth the same Roman Church to haue beene the onely cause of separation and carrieth the busines in such a rough and vncivill fashion towards her giuing her such greate occasions of new disgusts
that it plainely appeereth he doth rather demonstrate his owne bitternesse rancour towards her then with any probable argument shew any such disposition to remaine in her against any such vnion as hee pretendeth to desire Why then doth S. Humfrey complaine of that which is in a farre worse manner practised by himselfe and his owne brothers besides this I pray you doth the supposed bitternesse of F. Cāpian proue the bitternesse of the Roman Church could he alone bee the whole Roman Church who was but one onely member of it Or are his speeches or priuate positions to be attributed to the whole Church he being but one parte thereof and yet not the greatest what a false Metonymie is this if the head of the Church had vsed such speeches you would haue seemed to haue had some reason to haue attributed them to the whole because that which the head doth may induce a denomination vppon the rest of the body of which examples may be found euen in nature but whatsoeuer any other member doth it cannot rightly be attributed to the whole So that we now see that in this allegation S. Humfrey himselfe doth so carrie the matter and giueth the Church of Roome euen in this same section so much occasion of new disgusts as besides the rehearsed calumnies taxing her with creation of 12. new Articles and coyning of new expositions vpō the ould farre different from the doctrine of the Apostles and that she mayntaineth and practiseth manifest idolatry And the like most false and slanderous exprobrations that as I said before it plainely appeereth that he hath rather demonstrated his owne bitternes and rancour towards the Roman Church then shewed any such defect in her by any argument drowen from Father Campians wordes by him produced which wordes allthough by his quotation of Iewell in the margent he will seeme to haue taken them at secōd hand yet certainely it is a plaine imposture and so let them diuide it as they please betwixt themselues it being euer supposed that S. Humfrey and his Iewell are of equall authoritie with the Catholiks I meane of none at all Moreouer S. Humfteys whole drift in this section being to cleere his owne Church from the infamous brand of Apostacy he imposeth the whole cause of separation vpon the Roman Church and produceth Erasmus for a wittnes of the same who being demaunded for sooth of the duke of Saxonie what was Luthers capitall offence that stirred vp so many opposites against him made answer that Luther had committed two greate crimes for he had taken away the Crowne from the Pope and had taken downe the belly of the monkes To which saying of answer that Erasmus is no competent wittnes against the Roman Church especially in a case where his sole testimonie is interposed And if S. Humfrey had ben circumspect he would not haue cited Erasmus his answere for this purpose as containing one manifest lye if not twb. For neither did Luther euer take the Crowne from the Pope which as the world knowes he still enioyeth maugre him and all his adherents neither did Luther euer take downe the bellies of the monkes except it was by iniuste vsurpation and rapin to fill his owne and to leade his lyfe in luxurious concubinate with breach of his vowes to god and man Immediately before this momicall passage of Luther out of Erasmus which although S. Humfrey produced to colour the pretended Reformers diuisiō from the Church of Rome yet doth it farre more strongly argue a cause in the Pope iustely to reiect them then anie excuse of their preposterous separation before this I say he cited a place out of the Prophet Ose which because it makes nothing to this purpose Cap. 4.15.17 but onely vpon his owne false supposition that the Roman Church is wicked and idolatrous therefore vntill I see him prooue his supposition which yet I know he will neuer be able to performe I leaue it as impertinent as also I omit the examples he brings of Abrahams departure out of Caldea and of the Iewes out of Egypt which are as farre from the case we treate of as Egypt is from Europe or Christendome from Iewrye Therefore I will onely giue notice to the reader how grossely he abuseth certaine authours he cytes to testifye that by Babylon is meant the Christian Rome For ther is not one of those authours that affirmes that after it was conuerted to the Christian faith it was called Babylon according as the scripture vsually speakes of Babylon either properly or Metaphorically Neither is ther likewise anie of the same authours which teach that since the conuersion of that Citye to the faith of Christ Christians ought to departe from it as out of a spirituall and idolatrous Babylon which is that our aduersarie here intendes to proue or at the least ought to proue if anie thing he meanes to prooue against the Romanists And to speake first of the ancient authours here cyted by the kinght which are Tertulliā S. Hierome and S. Augustin it is directly impossible that they should meane by Babylon the Roman Church depraued by anie idolatrie of Christian people for that they were all departed out of the world before the supposed departure of the Roman Church from the true Religion is affirmed by our newe sectaries to haue begun which as they most commonly teach was not before the 600. yeare after the tyme of Christ our Sauiour Now as for the moderne authours to wit Orosius Viues Bellarmin and Baronius and Ribera they are all knowne Romanists yea and some of them cheefe defendours of the Roman Church and faith and so it is euident by this reason alone that they had not such a thought as to meane by Babylon the Roman Church Cap. 22. Viues vpon the 18. booke de cuit Dei explicates him selfe plainely saying Petrus Apostolus Roman Babylonem appellat vt etiam Hyeronymus in vita Marci interpretatur qui ad Marcellam scribens non aliam existimat describi à Ioanne in Apocalypsi Babylonem quam Vrbem Romam Bellarmin also speakes yet plainer in the verie place cited by S. Humfrey viz. lib. 2. de Rom. Pont. cap. 2. for he saith Respondeo Babylonem vocari non Romanam Ecclesiam sed Romanā vrbem qualis erat Ioannis tempore Orosius I haue not But let Baronius speake for him selfe and others Baron Adam 45. Nec per somninm quidem quis vnquam inuenit Romanam Ecclesiam esse Babylonis nomine nuncupatam sed ipsā tantummodô ciuitatem ac id quidem non semper sed cum impietate referta aduersus ipsam Ecclesiam bellum gereret Ribera vnderstands by Babylon persecuting Rome not as it is nowe I need not cite his wordes in a case so cleare So that nowe I doe not see why S. Humfrey produced these authors except it were by corruption of them to make them precursors of his corrupted way And hence also the reader may gather how weakely the knight
make anie question of it in this nature For supposing their extraordinarie affection that way and that single life is so vnsauourie to them that if it lay in their power they would rather suffer the whole quire of virgins to perish then they would make a religious vowe of perpetuall chastitie or liue without a woman supposing this I say in my opinion they ought in all reason sooner to haue honoured matrimonie with the title of a Sacrament then to haue quite depriued it of that which the scripture it selfe doth giue it Yet supposing they be so preposterous that they will rather impugne that which they otherwise loue best then seeme to agree to the Romane doctrine I tell them all and particularilie him with whome I dispute that although mariage was by God himselfe onelie ordayned in paradise as a ciuill contract Neuerthelesse Christe who came not to dissolue the lawe but to eleuate it to a higher degree of perfection amongst other things he pleased to honore the same with the true nature and properties of a Sacrament giuing also tho' not immediatlie by himselfe yet by his Apostle S. Paul the verie name and title of a Sacrament whereas notwithstanding neyther he himselfe nor anie of his Apostles or Euangelists euer gaue that name to anie of the rest of the Sacraments Wherefore to come nearer to the purpose I say that the institution of this Sacrament was by Christe himselfe who in the 19. chapter of S. Mathewe ordayned the coniunction of man wife to be inseperable to the end it so might be a sacred signe of the indissoluble coniunction of Christe and his Church as it is declared by the Apostle Ephes 5. where he expreslie giueth it the name of a great Sacrament in regard of the sacred coniunction partelie by the hypostaticall vnion and partelie by the vnion of charitie betwixt Christe and his spouse the Church which it signifieth Which foresaid coniunction of man and wife explicated by words of the present tense is the element and Christs ordinance and application of the same to the foresaid signification is the institution by virtue of which it also conferreth grace to the receiuers to the end they may liue in that perpetuall vnion of mindes which is required to the representation of the inseperable vnion of Christe and his Church which is all and more then our aduersarie himselfe demaunded of vs before in this particular matter To which if we adde the authoritie of the Church and auncient fathers for the interptetation of those scriptures which we haue produced for proofe of the truth of this and the rest of the foresaid fiue Sacraments which authorities of the fathers if need required and the place did serue for them I could easilie produce it would yet more plainelie appeere with how little reason the pretensiue reformed Congregations doe exclude them out of the number of true and proper Sacraments And so now according to this a verie easie answere may be framed to all that which the knight bringeth against the septenarie number of Sacraments in the rest of this paragraph and particularilie to the testimonies of those Romane authours and Fathers which he produceth in fauour of his cause And first touching the Fathers which hee citeth besides that which hath binne alreadie spoken I further adde that there was not one of them which was of the reformers opinion in this matter as is most apparent in that Sir Humfrey himselfe could not produce so much as one Father that auerreth the onelie duall number of Sacraments Nay they are so farre ftom this that there is not one of them who doth not in one place or other make expresse mention of more then two if professedlie they make mention of anie at all Secondlie I say that as the reformers cannot with anie probabilitie inferre out of those Fathers who affirmed that the two Sacraments Baptisme and the Eucharist haue flowed out of the side of Christe that there are no more nor lesse then two so neyther can they in anie sort thence inferre that the same Fathers taught not the septenarie number of Sacraments And more then this if the reformers stand vpon this so much that the Fathers by the bloud which issued out of our Sauiours side vnderstood the Sacrament of the bloud of Christe then they must consequentlie eyther confesse that the same Fathers held the reall presence of the bloude of Christe in the Eucharist which yet they themselues denie or else at the least that the reformed Churches haue no true Sacrament at all for that according to their confession there is in it neyther bloud nor bone And out of this generall answere to the testimonies of the auncient Fathers we may inferre how falselie Sir Humfrey in the end of his 149. page affirmeth that they did insist sometimes in the number of two and so restrayned the Church to the definite number of two onelie which saying of his is a manifest falsitie and iniurious to those Fathers whome he so chargeth as that which I haue produced out of S. Augustine in this period doth plainelie conuince in these fiue Sacraments which the reformers denie Neyther was he able to produce one testimonie out of anie of them for proofe of his fayned position but so leaueth it vnconfirmed more then with that fame vntruth by which he belyeth most impudentlie the foresaid Fathers all at a clappe Neyther hath that which he further addeth of the same Fathers in the next page anie greater truth or foundation then this where he sayth that had the Fathers beleeued that those fiue Sacraments had binne instituted by Christe they would of necessitie haue concluded them for true and proper Sacraments and haue easilie found in them the number of seuen Thus in effect Sir Humfrey discourseth to which I answere first that doubtles if the Fathers had had but halfe the occasion which the Church hath had since their time and especiallie since the foundation of the reformed Churches they would of necessitie haue treated and spoken expresselie of the septenarie number and haue distinguished as now the Church and diuines doe betwixt proper and improper Sacraments But the occasion fayling they neyther had necessitie nor conueniencie to speake otherwise of them then they haue donne Nay some of them especiallie those who writ against the Gentiles were rather obliged by the course of those times not to mention the secret misteries of our faith at all then to reueale them to the profaners of them more then was preciselie necessarie for the answere of their obiections Vid. Theodoret Dial. 2. which indeed is the true reason why diuerse of the foresaid more auncient Fathers haue spoken so obscurelie and sparinglie euen of some of the cheife misteries of Christian Religion Secondlie I say that howsoeuer the auncient Fathers spoke of the expresse number of the Sacraments certaine it is they eyther expreslie taught or at the least supposed for certaine doctrine of faith that all those which
Councell doe consequentlie affirme that the seruice and prayer in the reformed Churches in the vulgar tongue was better for the edification of the Church For it is manifest out of the verie same place cited by our aduersarie himselfe that the Councell of Trent doth command that the Pastours doe frequently expoūd some parte of those things which are read in the Masse not for that it hauing decreed the contrarie could possiblie hold it better to haue the Masse in a vulgar language then otherwise but because that supposing for other reasons it was better for the Church the Masse should not be in a vulgar tongue and that besides this it includeth matter of great instruction for the faithfull people therefore the Councell prudentlie decreed not for one onelie but for both these causes that it should oftentimes by the Pastours and Preists be declared to the common people for their greater edification and better vnderstanding of the doctrine contayned in it And this is all that in substance the Councell eyther sayth or from the wordes of the decree can be trulie inferred and so that from the Romanists owne confession it can be gathered that the seruice and prayer in the vulgar tongue was better for the edification of the Church is but such a dreame as Sir Humfrey vseth to haue the night before whensoeuer he citeth the Councell of Trent in fauour of the reformed doctrine After this the knight endeuoureth to proue that the Masse ought not to be celebrated in a silent and vnknowne voyce because sayth he the Apostles were cōmanded to showe forth the Lords death till his comming and to this end he citeth Haymo vpon the 14. chapter of the firste to the Corinth and Iustinian the Emperour in Nou. Const out of Cassander also the Greg. Decet Tit. 31. de Off. Iud. Ord. cap. 14. But to this I answere that both the knights reason and the testimonies of these authours are impertinent because the command layd vpon the Apostles was not that in this misterie they should shewe forth Christs death in words but principallie indeedes and therefore our Sauiour in the institution of the Eucharist did not bid his Apostles say it in remembrance of him but doe it in remembrance of him Hoc facite in meam commemorationem Otherwise the Sectaries themselues should be conuinced to violate Christes commaundement since that those who receiue their communion say not one worde In like manner let the reader veiw and vnderstand perfectlie the sense of the the wordes cited out of other authours and he will easilie perceaue there is not one sillable in them against Latine seruice or prayer as condemning it eyther for vnlawfull in itselfe or otherwise contrarie to the commandement of God Haymo doth onelie comment vpon that passage of sainct Paul 1. Cor 14. If I am ignorant of the virtue of the voyce I shall be to him to whome I speake barbarous onelie declaring in playner words that which the Apostle speaketh breiflie and obscurelie but sayth not a worde against the office of the Church in Latin Iustinian if anie such constitution he made of which it is much doubted by reason this clause is not founde in the auncient translation neither is it expounded by Cuiacio ordaineth onelie in generall that Bishops and Preists celebrate the oblation and minister the Sacraments of Baptisme and the Eucharist non tacito modo not secretlie but with a lowde voice but he speaketh not in particular of all partes of the Masse and at the least he speaketh not of the Canon except he meanes of the wordes of consecration which the Romanists doe not denie but the Grecians haue a custome of pronouncing them loude And as for other partes of the Masse the most of them are pronounced commonlie in the Romane Church so that the auditours may heere And according to this Iustinian peraduenture might aduise the Preistes of his time to doe when neuerthelesse it is certaine the Masse was in no vulgar language The decretalls speake not of anie vulgar tongue but onelie of Greeke and Latin as the decree of Innocent the third which may be seene in the ninth chap. of the Generall Councell of Lateran doth declare Neyther doth the Roman Church so strictlie command that the publike seruice be ministred in the Latine tongue that she doth condemne eyther the Greeke or Syrian Church for vsing the Grecian or Caldaian tongue in the diuine offices or publike seruice but onelie commandeth as more couenient that they be not performed in a vulgar language Lastly Sir Humfrey citeth some eight or nine Romanists who confesse sayth he that in the first ages publike prayers were vsed for the vnderstāding of the people But to omit that he vseth no great sinceritie in the citation and translatiō of the testimonies of some of the authours he citeth in this paragraph as may appeere particularlie in the quotation of Waldensis I say not to stand here vpon this which I shall more conuenientlie examen afterwardes I answere that those authours affirme that which we doe not denie to wit that perhaps which worde Sir Humfrey deceitfullie leaues out in his translation of S. Tho. testimonie cited out of his 3. lection vpon 1. Cor. 14. In 1. Cor. 14. lect 3. the case of the primitiue Church was different from the practise of the ptesent time in this matter yet withall the same authours doe affirme that the alteration was made vpon iust causes which causes are so sufficientlie deliuered by Bellarmine and others euen those whome the knight heere citeth that I need not rehearse their reasons they being so easilie to be found as they are to those that reade their bookes And altho ' sainct Thomas aduertiseth his reader that it might haue seemed madnesse in the primitiue Church to haue performed all the Ecclesiasticall offices in the Latine tongue for that they were rude ignorāt in the rites of the Church and ceromonies yet doth he adde that now all are so well instructed that tho' it be in Latine the people vnderstands what is donne in the Church whose saying is most true at least in generall yea and in particular so farre as is necessarie for euerie person state and vocation for that throu ' the diligence of their pastours and preachers and their owne industrie they may haue sufficient instruction Howbeit that if it were necessarie for euerie one that prayes or sings to vnderstand all they say the Puritans themselues might put vp their pipes it being most certainely true that there be manie things in the psalmes which they sing so merilie and in the scriptures which they read so readilie Conscquitur ergo Canonem clare aperte legendū vt ad gratiarum actionem Sacerdotis populus respōdeat Amen Cassander ex Gerardo Lorichio p. 65. which by reason of their great obscuritie they cannot possiblie vnderstand euen in their owne mother tongue And from hence I passe to a breefe Suruey of the rest of the authors cited
vniuersall Church of the worlde proposeth vnto them as doctrine to be receiued beleeued or practized by all faithfull Christians And as S. Augustin in the 41. of his fiftie homilies saith Whosoeuer is separated frome the Catholique Church that is to say that Church which spred in ouer the whole worlde as he specifieth in the precedent wordes how laudably soeuer he thinkes he liueth for that onely sinne that he is diuided from the vnity of Christ he shall not obteine life eternall but the wrath of God remaineth vpon him In which wordes as the reader may see according to the sentence of S. Augustin separation from the obedience of the vniuersall Church is sufficient to bring the curse vpon anie man notobstanding in other respects he liueth neuer so virtuously And according to this the Romanists may bouldly say they are accursed whoe deny all merit in workes proceeding from the grace of God Scr. 68. in Cant. they blessed with Sainct Bernard whom Caluin himselfe calleth a holye pious man that affirme with him that it is a pernicious prouertie to want merits yet especially at the houre of their death for humilitie with the same S. Bernard put all their confidence in the mercy of God that which the Romanists doe much more then the reformers notobstanding their defence of meritorious workes They are accursed whoe otherwise then Christ tought or affirmed teach affirme it vnlawfull for the laitye to communicate in one kynde And they blessed whoe with Christ his Church take it for a thing indifferent of it selfe to receiue in one or both kyndes stand to the ordināce of the most vniuersall Church without contention according to the difference of times places persons They are accursed whoe being vnlearned read scriptures interpret them falsely for the maintenance of their errours according to that of S. Peter saying Epist 2. c. 3. ther are certaine places in S. Paules Epistles which the vnlearned depraue to their owne perdition but blessed are they whoe read them as the Eunuch did that is with a S. Philipe I meane with one to shewe them the true sense as S. Basil his brother Nazianzene did Lib. 11. cap. 9. whoe according to Rufinus read the scriptures following the sense of them not according to their owne presumption but according to the writinges of their predecessours notwithstanding they were both verie famous renowned in learning They are accursed whoe either prohibit mariage or meates as ill in them selues as some ancient heretikes did or absteine not frome them both at such times in such cases as God his Church ordaineth them to absteine And they are blessed whoe according to the order of the Church directed by the spirit of God remaine with S. Paule vnmaried refaine from eating flesh at such times as the same Church appointeth Those are accursed for contemning of Christ in his Church whoe contrary to her appointmēt doe schismatically administer the publike seruice Sacraments in the vulgar tongue erroneously defending the same to be commaunded by the scriptures blessed are those whoe for reuerence to the holy scriptures conseruation of the dignity of the diuine offices other iust reasons hould it fitting to administer publike seruice Sacraments in a language most common to all nations to wit in the Latin tongue They are accursed whoe loue Christ his Saints so little as they accounte it idolatrie contrary to the scriptures to honore their images notobstāding ther is no place of scripture truly interpreted to be founde against them those are blessed according to the same scriptures whoe to shewe their exterordinarie affection to Christ duely reuerence both the images of him his blessed seruants They are accursed that refuse either to adore Christs bodie whersoeuer he affirmeth it to bee or account it idolatrie or superstition to honore the Saints who he him selfe saith he honoreth with a crowne of glorie blessed are they that performe his pleasure in both by adoring his pretious bodie blood in the sacrament by honoring his Saints in Heauen where he doth honour them as his seruants freinds Si quis mihi ministrauerit honorificabit eum Pater meus c. They are accursed who contrary to scripture reiect such ancient traditions as the most vniuersall Church approueth blessed are those who with due obedience obserue the same Accursed are they who reiect charitie frome the formall cause of iustification Maior autem horum est charitas 1. Cor. 13. which notobstanding according to the Apostle is greater then either hope or faith blessed are they who admit it in iustification as well as faith preferre it before faith with the same Apostle Accursed are they that by denying with the Iewes the bookes of the Machabies to be Canonicall scriptures denie Purgatory prayer for the soules departed blessed are they who with the Church S. Augustin hould the foresayd bookes for canonicall scripture say with him it is an vndoubted thing that prayer doth profit the dead Non dubiū est oration prodesse defunctis Aug. de cura pro mort c. 1. And in this māner if need were I could passe throu ' all the rest of the points of controuerted doctrine easily showe the curse to fall vpon the misreformed brothers for their obstinacie disobedience to God his Church Sir Humfrey would faine seeme to beare a charitable minde towardes the Romanists in regarde he saith he dares not pronounce damnation vpon their persons and yet he proclaimeth confidently opēly to the whole world that their doctrine is damnable to which it is necessarily consequent that all such as die obstinately in it are directly damned so if Sir Hūfrey proceeds cōsequenter to this his tenet he must necessity iudge the same of at the least in generall of those which dye in the foresaid obstinate manner with out inuincible ignorance end their liues in it But if this be that which he calls greater charitie them Romanists haue all the fauour he doth vs we thanke him not for it such charitie he may better reserue to himselfe his brothers who in my opiniō haue no more thē they can spare And if this be all the difference which can be foūde betwixt the proceeding of the Romanists the reformers in this particular then I say that notwithstanding Sir Humfrey much laboureth to make his reader beleeue that he his reformed brothers are more charitable thē the Romanists in iudging of the state of the soules of such as departe in each religion neuerthelesse it is manifest he quite faileth of his intent supposing that the Romanists doe not vse to iudge but rather suspend their iudgment of particular persons except they haue some speciall reasons prudently morally to persuade themselues that this or that partie died in actuall obstinacie defence of his erroneous faith otherwise
partiallity of the rule of faith where yet nothing is to be found in that sense which the knight fraudulently framed to his owne purpose And now from hence I passe to the Epistle dedicatory on which I had scarce cast myne eyes when presently I discouered two or three slanderous lyes vttered by the author the firste is that the pretended Catholike Church as he phraseth her is made the whole rule of faith by the Romanists the second that the Romane Catholikes are tought to eate their God kill their King the third that the Pope at this day alloweth of the Iewes Talmud inhibiteth the bookes of Protestants And those vntruthes I haue noted onely not for that I could not haue marked out others but because they seemed the most obuious grosse palpable I omit also to specify diuers places of Bellarmine cited by Sir Humfrey both heere in many other partes of his worke which well examined can serue him for no other purpose thē to coulore his cousinage And as for the rest of his preface I can assure the reader it is little more then an idle tedious repetition of the same matters which he handled in his firste booke and whosoeuer will take the paines to read both his pamphlets will find so frequent rehersall of the same things that his eares will tingle to heere them nay some whole chapters of this booke there bee which excepting the title haue little other matter then the same which is found in the other as will appeere in particular to him who shall conferre the two last sections of it with the tenth eleuenth sections of the safe way In so much that I thinke I may not vnfitly say of the workes of Sir Humfrey that which a certaine pleasant wit sayd once of the writings of Luther Tolle contradictiones calumnias mendacia dicteria ac schommata scurillia in Catholicos Romanos inanes digressiones ambages atque inutiles verborum multiplicationes duo eius volumina in vnum haud magnum libellulum redigi posse non dubito that is take way Sir Humfreys contradictions calumniations lyes take away his scoffes ieastes against the Romane Catholikes his idle vaine digressions multiplication of wordes or repetition of matter with his friuolous circumlocutions I doe not doubt but both his volumes may be easily reduced to the bulke of one small pāphlet And thus much concerning the Preface the booke in generall from whence I passe to particulars THE DISCVSSION OF THE SEVERAL sections in their order Sec. 1. In his first section I thinke I may trulie say Sir Humfrey telleth but one vntruth but it is so lardge a lye that it reaches from end to end I meane but one totall lye for partiall lyes there are diuers This totall vntruth is in that he affirmeth in his second page that the difference betwixt vs them is such as was betwixt S. Augustine the Donatists which is manifestly conuinced to be false euen by those same words which he himself cites out of that holy doctor Aug. de vnit Eccl. cap. 2. who directly sayth that the question betweene him them was vbi sit Ecclesia where the Church is And yet the question is not betwixt the Romanists the Reformers where the true Church is but which is the true Church that is whether the Romane church all the rest of the particular Churches in the world adhering to obeying that Church as the cheife mother Church be that true Catholike Church mentioned in the Creed commended in the scriptures or the reformed Church or Churches wheresoeuer they be which the reader may plainly perceaue to be a farre different question from that of which S. Augustine speaketh in the place cited by the kinght Secondly the whole discourse of this section runneth vpon a false supposition to witt that the Romanists refuse to proue the truth of their Church by scriptures onelie as S. Augustine did saith the kinght against the donatists but this is not true for the Romanists are so farre for reprouing that course in this point that they scarce vse any other proofes then those same scriptures which the same S. Augustin ordinarily vseth for that purpose as may be seene in the workes of both ancient moderne diuines Thirdly neuertheles when the Romanists say they proue the truth of their Church by scriptures onely they doe not therfore meane so that they exclude the interpretation of them according to the ancient tradition of the same Catholike Church for so neither S. Augustine eyther against the Donatists or any other hereticks in the like case alleaged the scriptures but as the same Saint Augustine saith thou ' partly in different wordes to another purpose De vnit Eccles c. 19. vt non nisi verum sensum Catholicum teneamus not so but that we doe followe the true Catholike sense of the same scriptures And in fewe wordes that which the Romanists meane is that they doe not vse the scriptures for proofe of their Church in the sense of the pretensiue reformed Churches but ouerly in that sense which anciently hath binne imbraced by the most vniuersally floryshing Church in all or most ages according to the diuersity of tymes And thus we see cleerlie that Sir Humfrey in diuerse respects hath grosselie ignorantlie mistaken the state of the question both betwixt S. Augustine the Donatists also betwixt himselfe the Romanists And consequentlie those authorities which he produdeth eyther out of S. Augustine or other ancient Fathers are impertinent of no force against the faith of the Romane Church but on the contrarie by his false dealing he hath fallen into that by path which in his erroneous imagination he hath prepared for his aduersaries in which neuerthelesse he himselfe if he proceed in this manner is like to walke euen to the end of his iorney I meane throu ' all the sections of his booke Sec. 2. In his second section he pretends to ansere to the pretences as he termeth them taken by the Romanists from the obscuritie of scripture from the inconueniences which he saith his aduersaries alleage for the restraint of the lay peoples reading them yet he is so farre from performing his taske in this behalfe that he doth not so much as relate completelie those reasons which moue the Romā Church to ordayne the said restraint but onelie catching at one or two of the lesse important causes alleaged by Bellarmin to that purpose giuing a verie sleight superficiall ansere vnto them he spends a great part of his time in forging a new cause which he falselie conceiueth to haue binne the onelie or cheife motiue which the Roman Church had to prohibite the reading of the Bible to wit for feare as he sayth their Trent doctrine new articles should be discouered And also in breathing out an odious relation of the speaches of some particular
Concedimus quod oramus Sanctos proprie ipsi orant pro nobis proprie vt cum dicimus sancte Petre ora pro nobis c. Wee graunt saith Antisiodore that wee praye to the saincts properly that they pray for vs properly as when we say Sainct Peter pray for vs. And now loe here how faithlessely the knight hath proceeded in his allegation of the testimonies of these twoe authors whoe both soe plainely conspire against him let the reader alsoe consider how little reason our aduersarie had to conclude that inuocation of saincts hath neither antiquitie vniuersalitie nor succession supposing that he can conclude no other safetie out of these and the like premisses then such as proceeds frome his owne forgerie deceite And altho' Gabriel cites an opinion of manie others that graunt the Saints doe praye onely improperly for vs by mediation of their merits yet doe they not exclude all prayer to saincts as Sir Humfrey the rest of his pretensiue reformed brothers doe whoe if they would but graunt the same the Roman Church would not soe much complaine of them neither is the difference of those Romanists frome others in the substance of this question in controuersie which is whether the saincts intercede praye for faithfull Christians liuing in this world whether we may praye vnto them inuocate them in both which partes of doctrine all Romanists agree but these diuines mentioned by Biel doe dissent from the rest onely aboute the maner of intercession which saints doe vse making a question whether they performe that charitable acte by formall prayer made vnto God for vs or by interposition of their merits by that meanes to moue his diuine maiestie to graunt our requests which manner of mediation as it is not the cheefe question betwixt our aduersarie of these tymes vs soe neither is it an argument of defect of antiquitie vniuersalitie or succession in the Roman doctrine nor anie proofe of the same notes to concurre in the tenets of the moderne sectaries as Sir Humfrey doth falsely suppose proueth not but onely equiuocateth in the state of the question or rather by affected ignorance transuersteth the meaning of the foresaid diuines touching this point taking the maner for the substance of the matter soe either throu ' affected ignorance or plaine malice diludes his reader To let passe that altho' the foresaid authors doe not graunte that the saints vse anie formall or proper forme of prayer to God for vs yet doe they not deuie our in vocation vnto them Nay supposing these diuines of whose doctrine the kinght would faine take hould as if it were contrarie to the vniuersalitie of the Roman faith supposing I say as Sir Humfrey him selfe relates out of Gabriel they defend the mediation of saints by their merits at the least if he had had is senses in readinesse he might easily haue either inferred that those same authors in like māner hould that we may inuocate pray vnto them euen peoperly formally or at the least it is plaine he neither ought nor could deduce the non inuocation of saints frome the foresaid mediation as erroneously he doth consequently he greatly abuseth the maintainers of that opinion in that he produceth them against the vniuersalitie antiquitie and continuall succession of the Roman doctrine in this particular seeing they differ not a iot frome other Catholique diuines in it touching the substance of faith yea they are soe farre from this that they expressely consent with them both in the doctrine of mediation merits both which points neuerthelesse the Nouellists doe obstinately impugne soe that it appeareth as a manifest trueth that Sir Humfrey can not possible with all his arte deuises scrape anie thing out of them for the antiquitie vniuersalitie succession of his pretensiue reformed congregation but rather that which doth quite destroye it if he had his dyes aboute him to perceiue it To the wordes cited by Sir Humfrey page 263. concerning images Biel subioyneth these Nec tamen propter haec imagines proijciendae sunt aut de oratorijs eliminandae occasione idololatriae deuitandae aut peregrinationes ad certas imagines vel certa loca praesertim consecrata vel etiam consecranda penitus reprehendenda non enim vsque quaque negandū est quin in certis locis singulariter reluceant beneficia maiora crebrius quam in alijs vel propter imagines sanctorum reliquias ibi conditas uel occulta ministeria alias mysteria futuris temporibus ibi celebranda aut celebrata vel alias causas nobis occultas propter quas Deus vnum locum elegit suo cultui non alium Thus much Biel in can missae sec 49. Which wordes neuerthelesse are slylie omitted by Fir Humfrey his freind Cassander which other wise are soe plaine for the Catholique practice in this matter euen at this day that they confounde them both And this is their false plot which they vsed to make this most Catholique author seeme to fauore their ill cause wheras in reallitie he is plainely against them Page 152. of the by-way Canus is cited by Sir Humfrey lib. 3. cap. 3. And falsely alledged as if he gaue a reason wherfore traditions are aboue scriptures For he onely affitmes that they are of greater force to conuince haeretikes then scriptures that which in substance was taught long since by ancient Tertullian is no blemish vnto the written worde of God which in other respects both the same Canus all other Romanists at the least equalize yea prefer before the vnwritten doctrine of the Church in generall In his citation of Canus page 399. of his by way Sir Humfrey puts the obiection as if it were the doctrine of the author whoe propoundeth ansereth the same in his last chapter of the first booke sharpely reprehending Pighius out of whose opinion the obiection is framed by Canus reproued Altho' he insinuates with all that the error of Pighius Is not in matter of faith doctrine necessatie to saluation which is that onely which Canus professeth to maintaine in the defense of the authoritie of Councels Nos enim in dogmate fidei deeretis ad salutem fidelium necessarijs Conciliorum authoritatem asserimus in rerum gestarum iudicio ordine non asserimus Canus de locis lib. 5. cap. vlt. ad sep argumentum When Costerus pag. 44. of his Enchir. prefers traditions before the word of God he takes tradition as it is writen in carnall tables of the harte by the finger of the holy spirit on the contrarie he takes the written worde of God precisely as it consists in letters caracters which may perish or be corrupted by the false construction of heretikes or otherwise And therfore Costerus calles the first internall the secōd externall scriptures in the margen of the same page 44. And when the same costerus citcd by Sir Humfrey page 149. of his Deuia in the