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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88101	A discourse of disputations chiefly concerning matters of religion, with animadversions on two printed books, (mentioned in the contents following next after the epistles:) the latter whereof, at the request of Dr. John Bryan, (for censure and advice) being seriously perused; the author of it, John Onley, is thereupon convinced of error, slander, and of arrogant, uncivill, and unchristian miscarriage, not onely towards him, but all the reformed churches of the world, out of the way of his most affected singularity. By John Ley, rector of the church of Solyhull in Warwicksh. Whereto is added a consolatory letter to Dr. Bryan, &c. upon the death of his worthily well-beloved and much bewailed son Mr. Nathaniel Bryan: which immediately followeth after the discourse of disputations.	Ley, John, 1583-1662.	1658 (1658)	Wing L1877; Thomason E938_1; Thomason E938_2; ESTC R205182	106,562	123

same Jesuite Dr. Laud then Bishop of St. D●vids had a dispute also which are printed together with Dr. Whites Reply to Jesuite Fishers Answer An. 1624. and the four days Conference betwixt the Jesuite and his opposites appointed by the State and of Dr. Reynolds with Mr. Hart all in the Tower of London and published at large in print I desire rather to commend to the rending of a judicious Protestant than to abbreviate any thing out of them Of later times especially since we have been divided into so many Sects we have had though the Military Sword God be thanked be sheathed a great deal of Word war many presumptuous Challengers to publick dispute and some too temerarious undertakers of them whereof divers are in print and some as worthy are not printed as that of yours and Dr. Grew's encounter with Mr. Kiffin and Mr. Knowls at Coventry These I purposely forbear because they are many and the most of them are of one and the same Argument the Baptism of Infants I will conclude this Chapter with a few necessary Admonitions to all true Christians First since in all Ages Truth hath met with many enemies that they do not content themselves with a bare knowledge or belief of it but that they endevour to be so enabled to plead for when adversaries rise up against it that they may stand up and stand out in opposition to them and so may not onely be able earnestly to contend for the faith once delivered to the Saints Iude 3. but manfully to defend it Secondly out of the precedent examples we may draw instruction for our direction how to carry on a dispute when upon just cause we are to undertake it as by that of Michael disputing with the Devil We may be cautioned against contumelious speeches against our Antagonist for he when he disputed with the Devil about the Body of Moses durst not bring against him a railing accusation Jude 9. And from our Saviours encounter with Satan we may be directed with what weapon chiefly to manage our spiritual warfare even with the sword of the spirit the word of God as he did and therewith put his enemy to flight From the passionate excesses of some Disputants observed in this Catalogue we may be admonished of moderation and meekness of spirit that by suffering our passions to become rampant we make not our Judgements to be couchant Other particulars I shall make use of especially in prosecution and completing of the sixth Chapter when I come unto it CHAP. V. Of the various Issues and Successes of Conferences Colloquies and Disputations about matters of Religion IT is the observation of y Aug. Thuan. apud Melch. Adam in vita Pet●i Boquini p. 146. Lorinus in Act. Apost cap. 9. v. 29. at p. 422. Possev Bibliot select tom 1. c. 13. p. 365. divers learned man that conflicts in matters of Religion have for the most part been fruitless of good effects and sometimes that they have brought forth much evil fruit For example The Collation Conference or Disputation of Catholicks with the Donatists though it were fairly carried against them and that by the Testimony of the Judge who was constituted as Moderator in the cause yet they would not acknowledge themselves convinced and when the sentence of the Judge was produced against them they raised a slanderous report against him and their Antagonists z Dicunt judicē fuisse proemio corruptū Aug. Collat. cum Donatist tom 7. part 1. p. 726. as if they had corrupted him with bribes to pass an honourable sentence on their side which occasioned Augustine to write a Confutation of them after the publick Collation with them And in his particular Disputation with Poscentius a Nobleman and an Arian Heretick when he was shamefully foiled he vain-gloriously gave out a Aug. ab ipso superatū Aug. Epist Poscent Ep. 174. tom 2. p. 898. that he had gotten the victory of Augustine But the Examples of our own State and later times may be more for our instruction and caution And we have but too good proof of very bad effects of Conferences or Disputations with Papists b So in the Dean of Pauls and Dean of Windsors Epistle before the Report of the Conference with Campian printed ann 1583. as in the year 1581. when Campian that Thrasonical Champion of the Romish Church of whom we have made mention before when discovered by his Antagonists to be a man of confident undertakings and impotent performances yet Reports and Pamphlets were spread abroad every where by his party as though Campian like some great Bear or Lion had shaken his Adversaries off like cowardly Curs one after another What followed upon the disputes with the Jesuite Fisher and a third with Dr. Laud the Bishop of Saint Davids with the same c Of Doctor Whites reply to the Jesuite Fisher p. 8 9. Fisher Dr. White sheweth in his Epistle to the Reader in these words His Majesty had experience of the unfaithful dealing of Pontificians when they make relation of such things as pass by word of mouth onely in private Disputations and he well understood how the Cretizing Jesuite had dealt with a reverend Bishop and with my self for had we been School-boys of thirteen years old he could not have made us seem more childish and unskilful then he did dispersing hundreds of papers to his own praise and to our disgrace But such lying reports will at long running turn to the disgrace of those that divulge them and that the more by how much they are the more notoriously untrue as that fiction of theirs of D. Featly his dispute with the same Fisher who was such a busie pragmatical Jesuite as to be found fishing for silly souls in many places With him the Doctor being drawn to dispute by one Mr. Buggs who in his sickness was sollicited to set up his rest for salvation in the Romish Religion and the dispute ended (d) The Romish Fisher caught and held in his own net by Doctor Featly in the Preface to the Relation of the conference June 27. An. 1623. p. 3. About a week after the Earl of Warwick who was present at it having occasion to pass over the Seas and coming to Saint Omers had the company of Doctor Weston at his Inne to whom this Doctor taking the Earl for a Roman Catholick told for fresh and most hapyy news out of England That at a conference betwixt Father Fisher and Weston sweet Jesuites and two Protestant Ministers the Jesuites had quitted themselves so well and the Catholicks Faith prevailed so far that two Earls and one hundred others of the auditory were joyned to the Church of Rome with this encounter of those two Earls The party to whom he spake was one who could not but smile at this relation for there * Ibid. p. 6. were not near an hundred of both parties in all at the conference whereof twenty were professed Papists and known

long to answer his unlearned follies Of this over-eager affection to dissenting altercation we find many examples among the Romanists as Iohn Eccius whom l Johannes Eckius vel Eccius catholicae sidei adversus Lutherum ac reliquos haereticos propugnatur insignis Antipossevinus Appa Sacri Tom. 1. p. 871. Possevine commends for a notable Champion against Luther and other Hereticks who when a disputation was appointed at Ratishon ann 1541. betwixt Iulius Pilugius Iohannes Gropperus and himself for the popish party and Philip Melancthon Martin Bucer and Iohn Pistorius for the Protestants m Illi verecundèse excusant ut alii magis idonei constituantur petunt omnes praeter Eccium is enim paratü se diccbat instructū Sleidan Cōment l. 13. p. 279. all but Eccius modestly desired to be excused and intreated that others more fit might be appointed to discusse the points in difference betwixt them but he said he was ready prepared for the purpose yet it was to little purpose for though he were so hot upon the matter God took him off with another heart for n Aliquanto post in febrim incidit it a quidem ut interesse non posset Sleid. Ibid. 14. princip lib. p. 281. he seized on him with a feaver and thereby served him with a prohibition that he could not be present of him it is to be noted that though he were so forward to dispute he wrote one discourse against disputing with Hereticks and o See Possevinus ubi suprà another that Hereticks were to be burned which sheweth that he would not have their minds enligthned with instruction but their bodies inflamed to destruction by burning faggots reared round about them Iohn Cochlens his mate in malignity to Protestant truths was so vehemently and confidently bent by disputation to oppose such as professed themselves Protestants that he offered himself to dispute with any Lutheran upon perill to lose his life if he failed in his proofs but his confidence is the lesse to be regarded because as he persecuted truth p Eccius commentar rerum inde gestarum ann 1531. p. 271. under the name of Heresie so he published Heresy under the title of truth for he was the first that set forth the workes of Iohannes Maxentins q Cochleus opera Johannis Maxentii sub nomine orthodoxi patris primus edidit Tom. 4. Biblioth Patr. p. 433. as an orthodox father whom some of his own side more learned then himself as Margarinus Dola Bigne have since dicovered to be an r Opera Maxentii cautissimè legenda nec illis fidendum cùm lateat Eutychianae haereseos venenum Ib. c. p. 445. Entychian Heretick as the reader may see in the fourth tome of Bibliotheca Patrum the Eutychian heresie acknowledged but one nature in Christ and that was the divine and s Alphonsus de castro adversus haereses lib. 4. titulo de Christi haeres 4 col 4278. held that our bodies at the resurrection shall be more subtill then the wind so that they shall neither be seen nor felt After Eccius and Cochleus was set up the sect of the Iesuits which some place upon the year t Ibid. l. 13. titulo de resurrectione haeres 2. col 906. 1530. some in u Buccalzer Jud. Chronol p. 534. 1540. Among them none ever set a bolder face upon so bad a cause as the w Ludov. Lucius Hist Jesuit c. 1. p. 1. Iesuit Edmund Campian did who made a thrasonicall challenge to dispute with the Vniversities of England reducing the reasons of his dispute to ten heads which Possevine a fiery-spirited Iesuit for the good liking he hath of them and fearing in time so small a book as they made might be lost incorporated into his “ See Possevinus Bibliotheca select part p. 309. ad 324. first part of his Bibliotheca Selecta In these reasons of his offer he seemes cum ratione insanire to be mad with such a mistake atheirs who think they have reason when they kill Christs servants to think they do him service John 16.2 His confident expressions in his cause argue either a strange imposture of a deluding spirit or a brasen impudence of a bragging Jesuit x Si hoc praestitero coelos esse Sanctosesse fidem esse Christum esse causam obtinui Camp in Epist Academicis Oxonii florentibus Ib. 320. If I do make good saith he that there is an Heaven that there be Saints that there is faith that there is a Ghrist I have won the victory y Patres si quando licebit accedere confectum est praelium tam sunt nostri quàm Gregorius ipse 13. filiorum Ecclesiae pater amantissimus ● Ibid. ratione 5. p. 315. If we come to try our differences by the fathers the war is at an end they are as certainly ours as Pope Gregorie the thirteenth a most loving Father of the Children of the Church But when he was disputed within the Tower ann 1581. he that was so loud and vigorous in his challenge was so low and feeble in performance that it gave them cause to conceive who had well observed them both z See Alex. Nowell and Will Dayes Preface before the dispute printed ann 1583. that the book was none of his which was published in his name howsoever he that reads his challenge and the true relations of the dispute or conference fore-mentioned will find that his rhetorick was more plausible in the one then his logick powerfull in the other so that we can neither say according to Sampsons riddle out of the strong came sweetnesse Judges 14.14 Nor out of the sweetnesse came strength For it was his weaknesse of judgement to take so great a burden on him as he was nor able to bear and the weaknesse of his cause and judgment both which suffered it to sink when he took it into protection and undertook to support it against so many vigorous Assailants as he provoked to oppose it when one learned man was able to turn that counterfeit Divine into a meer Thraso his reasons into bubbles his threats into trifles and vapours of vanishing smoke “ Campianum ita fregit Whitakerus ut omnes sanae mentis facile viderent ementitum Theologum in verum Thrasonem rationes in ampullas denique omnes minas in meras nugas fumum levissimum evanuisse Melch. Adamus in vita Whitakeri part poster p. 169. as Melchior Adamus very fitly setteth forth his folly and foile There have been some women who have so much forgotten the frailty and modesty of their sex as to make chattings to learned men for disputation in matters of Religion of this there is a memorable story but how true it is I cannot tell because cause I have it but upon the report of a Parsons in the Preface to his report of 10. disp p. 29 30. added to the third part of his treatise intituled the 3 conversions of

written to the Synod of Ministers assembled at Gargean that he was not so wretchedly instructed in piety as that for want of knowledge of the truth he should suffer himself to be carried away with every humour of Doctrine The causes of so little good success of Debates Disputes Conferences or Controversies of Religion betwixt parties of opposite opinions are divers in some the prevalent power of fansie or imagination above judgement is the cause that Arguments whether artfiicial of reason or inartificial of testimony will work little upon prejudicated fancy of the various working whereof we may read many observable particulars in the learned discourse of Picus Earl of Mirandula of r Jo. Picus Mirandula lib. de imaginatione vol. 2. operum p. 91. praecip c. 7 8 9. that Title Secondly With some custome is a great obstacle against the receiving of truth and thence it is that those who have been trained up in untruth from their Child-hood are with greatest difficulty convinced of it or converted from it We may see the refractoriness of this resistance in Peter Acts 10. who when v. 12,13 a vision was presented unto him shewing him several kinds of creatures clean and unclean and he had a command to kill and eat v. 13. Not so v. 14. Lord said he why so Peter he gives this reason of his refusal though the command came from Heaven because of his customary forbearance of forbidden meats I have never eaten any thing that is common and unclean Thirdly With others s Prava vel honoris vel pecuniae cupiditas animos disputantium invasit ut tanquam in pugna sola spectaretur victoria● Ludov● Vives de causis corrupt artium l. ● p. 38. a corrupt cupidity of glory or gaint is a great cause of their standing out against clear discoveries such will not yield to verity so long as they can with confidence and impudence make any shew or appearance of victory or outface the foil they have taken in dispute Fourthly Some withstand the truth in unrighteousness principally out of hatred and disdain of their Adversaries lest it should be thought that by them they were brought to yield unto it this was the humour of the Arch-Bishop and Cardinal of Capua who would yield to reform nothing though many corruptions were discovered t Nicol. Archiepis Capuanus Magna contentione clamabat ne quid omnino reformaretur ne Lutherani jactent quasi ab ipsis propemodum adacti illud fecerint Job Sl●idan Comment l. 12. p. 242. An. 1538. left the Lutherans should brag that they had been brought to reformation by them Fifthly Some account it their credit to be no changelings especially in Religion not knowing the difference betwixt constancy and obstinacy Sixthly And oft times it falls out that by the subtilty or eloquence of Disputants when they are somewhat evenly matched the Auditory is kept pendulous or irresolute even he perhaps for whose sake the Dispute or Conference was undertaken as u Ille cujus causa in congressum descendis Scripturarum ut cum dubitantem confirmes ad veritatem an nagis ad haeresim deverget hoc ipso motus quod te videat nihil promovisse aequo gradu negandi defendendi certe de pari altercatione incertior discedit nesciens quem Haereticum judicet Ter●ul praescript advers haereticos Tom. 1. c. 18. p. 170. Tertull. sheweth He saith Tertullian for whose cause thou descendest into a Controversie of Scripture that thou maist confirm him against doubting it is hard to say whether he tend more to Verity or to Heresie because he sees thou prevailest nothing the dispute going on in an equal degree of denying and defending certainly by such a parity in altercation he will depart more uncertain not knowing what he should judge to be Heresie Seventhly When Conferences and Disputations in Religion succeed not so well as good men would have them is because they are not ordered or managed in such a manner as they should be whereof I shall speak in the next Chapter as in its p●oper place In the mean time this good order will require that I now observe what good success hath been the issue of some disputations betwixt Michael and the Devil in Iude Christ and the Devil Matth. 4. By the way some take Michael the Arch-Angel for Christs Son for a created Angel to me it is which I will now neither determine nor discuss and for the disputes of Stephen and Paul they must needs have the better of their adversaries because they were not able to resist the Wisdome and the Spirit by which they spake Act. 6.10 not with any evidence of truth or appearance of reason yet when the truth was most illustriously set forth some were so blinded and hardned with their own malice and envy that they could not see it or would not confess themselves to be convinced by it is as when our Saviour had mightily and miraculously proved himself to be the Son of God by casting out Devils the Devil would not suffer his Adversaries to acknowledge it but stirred them up to impute the power of the holy Spirit to Beelzebub the Prince of Devils Matth. 12.24 And when Athanasius had a Disputation with Arius he would not yield that the power of Truth had prevailed but w Arius in quit nulli dubium est quin magicis artibus Athanasius non desinat judicum pervertere sensus c. Athanas disp contra Arium Laodiceae tom 2. col 393. most absurdly suggested that he managed his cause by Magical Arts. Notwithstanding the issues and effects of some Disputations have been more successful besides those which were carried on by a Divine Power against Humane or Devillish malignity as that of Octavius a Christian with Cecilius an Heathen set forth by Minutius Felix whereof we have observed before that some take that for a real story some for a pious discourse composed by Minutius himself Dialogue-wise under the borrowed names of x Caecilium superstitiosis vanitatibus etiamnum inhaerentem disputatione gravissima ad veram religionem reformavit Octavius sic Minutius Felix Conclus Dialog Tom. 9. Bibliothec. Patrum col 22. Octavius a Christian and Cecilius an Heathen the effect whereof whether it were historicall or poeticall or moral was such as was answerable to such convincing premises viz. that Cecilius converted by Octavius from superstitious vanities they parted with mutual congratulation and Minutius thereby accounted himself Felix y Post haec laeti hilaresque discessimus Caecilius quod crediderit Octavius quod vicerit ego quod ille crediderit hic vicerit Ibid. rejoycing with and for them both z Euseb Eccles Hist l. 6. p. 32. Eusebius and a Hierom. Catal. Script Eccles tom 1. p. 292. Hierome make report of Beryllus Bishop of Bostra in Arabia that he fell from the faith to strange doctrine of the Divinity and Humanity of Christ but conferring with Origen was convicted by manifest proof and

nor was there any probability of good to come of it which it had been well if he had heeded so far as to refuse not so much the dispute it self as to undertake it with such an unequal opposite But he argued himself into an acceptance of the challenge out of some reasons of piety charity and humility which as event hath proved were misapplyed to Mr. O. and that rather by his injurious misdoing then by the Doctors imprudent mistaking Besides he had an inducement to adventure some inconveniencies by the dispute while but doubtful from the experience of his contestation with two Anabaptists of London Mr. Knowles and Mr. Kaffen who came from thence to Coventry with a great deal of confidence to confront Dr. Brian and his worthy Brother Dr. Grewe in a publick disputation for which purpose though the Magistrates of the City and at their request promised to lend the Town-Hall upon the boysterous misbehaviour both of themselves and of many of their followers on the Sabbath day before the disputation who flocked in great numbers thither to countenance and encourage their Champions they recalled their concession for the same cause the Committee of Parliament residing there for bade the dispute The 2. Doctors notwithstanding were necessitated somewhat to Symbolize with the Anabaptists viz. so far as to a non-obedience of their Governours therein that rather in hope of their pardon then in contempt of their power because the Anabaptists imputed these prohibitions not so much to the prudence of the Magistrates as to the diffidence of the Doctors to undertake the defence of their professed judgment and practice and this sinister suggestion so far swayed with some religious persons that they inclined to make a Schisme from the Church if these far-fetched Fencers should find none to take up the Sword and Buckler against them For prevention of which scandal they were publickly encountred the truth so strenuously asserted and they so fully confuted in a very numerous Auditory that such as before were wavering and in a manner tottering towards a revolt if they should have had cause to glory that they put off their harness because none durst put on any to combat with them were throughly satisfied and firmly setled and established in the truth The like bravadoes Doctor Brian might expect from his Thrasonical challenger if he had not been undertaken and his factious adherents would have triumphantly traduced him that he durst not commit his cause to such a publick trial and so they might have gained a great advantage which might have confirmed his fellow-Sectaries and dissetled the simple too much addicted to listen after novel fancies and to like them too well Besides he might have good hope also that the success of a disputation at Kentlmworth would be such as there was of that at Coventry And so the day prefixed to begin the disputation being come nine Arguments were brought by the Doctor in vindication of the Affirmative in the first Question and when half the time was spent in debate of the two first Mr. O. as himselfe saith moved for the rest of the time to oppose in the second question which was granted only with a motion of reading the other seven in the Congregation whereto Mr. O consented desiring a copy of the Arguments undisputed of to return an answer to be likewise publickly read the next meeting which was Monday month after according to which Mr. O. drew up as he saith a Reply and read it in the Congregation CAAP. VIII Of the printing of the Disputation By whose motion it was made By whom and how managed IMmediately after what Mr. O. had drawn up was read a Gentleman then present desired that the Disputation might be printed and desired Mr. O. to move it to the Doctor which he did whereto he replied if he might reply he was willing but said withal that he had twelve Arguments more in proof of the question to which I replyed saith Mr. O. I was contented he should reply to mine answer to the nine first without any rejoynder provided I might answer to the twelve last without his reply onely till they were printed and then each should be at liberty to write what he pleased To this motion of printing the Doctor yielded in the close of the third or fourth dayes disputation viz. that Mr. O. his Arguments Answers Replyes and Rejoynders might be put in print and for his proviso Doctor Brian gave him liberty to oppose what he pleased and take in also the help of Mr. Marley and those other seven who assisted him in disputation that the utmost he and they could object further against our Parish Churches might come under one view and withal the Doctor wished him to forbear in stead of arguing to make any more excursions by tedious and impertinent declamations against our Ministers and Members wherein all your answers saith he to Mr. O. for the most part spend themselves So in the Epistle of Doctor Brian to Mr. O. I have related the more out of both their printed Testimonies touching the disputation and impression of it because the printed book is very hard to come by though Mr. O. saith it was published with both their consents which may be very much doubted of for divers reasons For First there were no publick Notaries and Witnesses to write and attest what passed in dispute betwixt them Secondly Though there were copies taken of the dispute the chief pen-man of the whole was Mr. O. who (a) In the Disputat p. 46. confessith by reason of a mighty crowd of people he could hardly breathe or write one perfect sentence of Doctor Brians Sermon and there might be as much difficulty in taking by his pen other Dictates delivered by word The crowd it is like was very great for Dr. Brian speaking of seven which took Mr. O. his part in the disputation who were Antipedobaptists he in his answer saith b J. O. in his Exam. of the Doctors Reply p. 23 24. he believeth there was seven times seven thrice told that took his part that is 149. and I believe for one such a one there was 20. at least of a contrary judgement Thirdly But if there were a perfect copy of the Dispute made up by the Doctor and him that copy was committed to Mr. O. his hand to be promoted to the Press and no copy kept whereby it might be known to be truely printed such was the Doctors candid and suspectless dealing with his adversary which laid a great engagement upon him of fair and ingenuous correspondence with him again Fourthly When the book was printed he should have sent the Doctor a copy of it before he had printed his Letter of consent unto it that he might allow or disallow it as he should see cause Fifthly Mr. O. having the Manuscript in his own hands might have altered his own part for the better the Doctors for the worse at his pleasure And that he had a

and agree with them in that which is truely popish and Antichristian as Error Pride Schisme Censoriousness Malice Slander sophistical Subtilty as their writings and doings do declare especially Mr. J. O. in his dealing with Doctor Brian in his unfaithful publication of the disputation at Kenelmworth and in his other bitter and insolent Book of Examination afterward The second proof of his partiality is this when Doctor Brian hath proved our Churches of England to be true Churches of Christ by convincing arguments Nam quae non prosunt singula juncta valent Disp p. 6. convincing if taken together though all of them be not of equal evidence and vigour● all that avails nothing towards Mr. O. his satisfaction unless he prove an impertinency to the Question viz. That they were true Churches from their very foundation that is as he explaineth himself more fully elsewhere that all the parishes of this Nation in their first division into Parishes were visible Saints and that those Churches gathered by preaching onely 500. Exam. of Dr. Br. Reply p. 30 37. Ibid. p. 24. Disp p. 5. years before Augustine the Monk were such as our Parishes now are or that they are such now as they were then and this he maketh the life of the Doctors cause and if he prove not this saith he he doth nothing whereas it is neither the life nor limb of his cause no neither hair nor nail of it neither a skirt nor an hem but indeed meet nothing to the purpose And therefore the Doctor did justly and discreetly decline it as impertinent saying it is our Churches present not their primitive state which I undertake to vindicate and this upon very good reason For First The Churches whose primitive constitution was the best and nearest to that of the Apostler both in time matter and form as that of Jerusalem Rome Antioch and the Churches of Asia long since are fallen from the faith and have unchurched themselves by their Apostasie Secondly It is but a Jesuitical evasion from the pertinency and life of the cause of a true Christian Church to wave the present qualifications and notes of it and to put all the weight and stress of the trial upon the Historical report of precedent times as while we prove our Church to be a true Church and our Faith a true Faith by the Scriptures as Doctor Featley d●d against Fisher the Jesuite that would be taken for no good proof with him unless he deduced the visibility of the Protestant Professors through all ages from the Apostles to Luthers time and he professed he would not proceed in the dispute unless that were first done as is observed before Thirdly If it were pertinent and were also proved by Chronological History it would serve but to make up a meer Humane and Historical Faith which is not effectual to Salvation and the doubt of it where it is required and not proved as it is no easie matter to do may raise perplexing doubts and fears of salvation in weak though well-minded Christians as causing suspicious conceits of their being in a true Church out of which as out of Noahs Ark the common saying is none are saved Yet this unsound and groundless assertion of his which hath neither proof of Scripture Reason or of any humane Author of credit or account be not onely putteth into the very front of his Examination frontinulla fides but repeateth it over and over both in the Disputation and Examination to puzzle the simple Hearers of the one and Readers of both Disp p. 1 6 7 12. Exam. p. 11 12 13 24 27 28 30 37. and to make them believe that there was somewhat in it which made the Doctor afraid to meddle with it whereas it was a meer extravagancy from the question in hand which to such as are intelligent shews Mr. O. to be a Jesuitical shifter and that he may appear more and worse then a Jesuite he taketh upon him to be a Pope peremptorily defining tanquam ex Cathedra Pestilentiae not only that our Churches have never been true Churches from the foundation of them but that it is not possible for them to be made true by reformation Thus in the Title page of his Examination wherein his ignorance confidence and imprudence are all of them superlative and worthy of none other answer then a scornful silence Yet the other part of his partiality which now I am to prove will implicitly at least confute it fully for he that is so injurious as to impose upon the Doctor such an impertinency as the life of his cause and to regard none of his proofs though never so pregnant for the truth of our Churches is so gracious to his own side as to resolve that a true Church may be constituted thus A company of true Believers assembled in the Name of Christ willing to follow him in the way of his ordinances revealed in his word and yet seeing their want of a personal succession and yet knowing it their duty and the will of Christ it should be performed did appoint one that was unbaptized to reassume and set afoot this ordinance of Christ And if so how partial is Mr. O. who makes it impossible for our Churches to be made true by any reformation for how easie a matter is it for Churches to be reformed after that manner The third partiality of Mr. O. appeareth in his Epistle to his Schismatical Sister-Churches where he taketh upon him to make a long Paraphrase on the words of Ananias to Saul Acts 22.18 but when Doctor Brian makes but a short one on the words of Peter Acts 2.39 The promise is made to you and to your Children saying if the promise be made to believers and their children the command must reach not only to them but to their children as running thus be baptized you and your children for the promise is made to you and to your children To this Mr. O. in a jeering manner replye●● As if Peter Were not wise enough to express his own meaning to direct us who should be or the grounds upon which they should be baptized without your priestly prudence surely might you have come to the honour or been worthy to have been a Dictator to Peter you would have taught him to have said some what from whence Infants right of Baptism might have been proved With this partiality appeareth a spice of his insolency formerly observed But if Doctor B●ian had been worthy and had taken upon him to play the Dictator he had acted that part a great deal better by deducing Infants Baptisme from the words of Peter then Mr. O. did dictating such an Aphorism out of his own fancy concerning necessary recourse to the primitive constitution of a Church to prove it to be a true Church at present which we have now examined and refuted The fourth partiality I shall mention is this he will not be turned over by Dr. Brian to Mr. Hollingworth for satisfaction