The second replie of Thomas Cartwright agannst Maister Doctor Whitgiftees second answer touching the Churche Discipline Isay 62. vers 1. For Syons sake I will not hould my tonge and for Ierusalems sake I will not reste vntill the righteousnes therof break forth as the light and the saluation therof be as a burning lampe Ibid. vers 6. 7. Ye that are the Lordes remembrancers kepe not silence and gyue him no rest vntill he repaire and set vp Ierusalem the praise off vvorld Imprinted M. D. LXXV To the Churche off England and all that Loue the trueth in yt Thomas Cartwright Wisheth mercy and peace from God our Father and from our Lorde Iesus Christe THe Church off God so ofte vs scripture not compared onely but figured in the Citie Ierusalem serueth for instruction in this cause For as in yt the wal first broken downe was last made vp againe and that more then 14. yeares after the temple builded so is yt commenly in the spirituall wal off the churche whiche is the discipline the lorde appointed aswel for strenght of yt as for houlding out of all aduersarie power whether yt be corruption off doctrine or manners The first is to be seen in the Act. of thapostles where after the churches gathered by preaching there was an eldership seuerally placed in them to whom the execution of the church discipline doth especially appertain The other may as easily appear to him that considereth the estate off the churche after the Apostles by monuments off those times in which allwaies as this fort off gouernement left by them was first suffred to decaie so the purenes of doctrine decreased vntill the churche yt selfe except a few stones here and there scattered was browght to heapes off dust Yf yâ— be asked why the discipline hauing right to entre with the doctrine findeth not alwaies that fauour amongest men The cause â—s apparant that when Satan can not gain this first point to houlde the doctrine owt off a city or Kingdome he sweareth after the second that yt may be there with smallest fruict and shortest continuance Wherin let I beseche yow be considered his doings against the building off the wal off Ierusalem For if he bestirred himself so in hindering that materiall wal it wil be les meruaile yf for hinderance off this spirituall he trudge to and fro open his whole pack off subtilties and as yt is in prouerb bestovv both â—vet and dry And first touching the persons he vseth in his fight against both they are not much vnlike For in steed off a bastard kinde off Israelites Apostataes from God and his tru seruice which were there the foreine enemies we haue now the Papistes who as shal appear he set in the forward of this battail against the discipline now propounded And as now we haue within the church whiche couered with the name off the gospel and off the teachers theroff giue a more daungerous assault then the Papistes So were there then euen off the Iewes them selues vnder gouerners and Prophetes which secretly and openly opposed them selues As for the practises they are so like in bothe that all which will open their eies maie easely espie the same workeman For as the enemies then placed their cheef strenght in accusations against the church that yf it vvere suffered to laie the foundacioÌ„s of the vval it vvould moue seditioÌ„ and rebel against the Kinge euen so our aduersary to arme the Prince against this cause soundeth nothing more then rebellion sedition and suche like Yf this were not able to discrie or at least to giue warning off this vnfaithfull dealing yet this may That these are the verie weapons off the papistes which not able amongest vs with so great succes to be vsed by them selues as those which are knowne enemies haue bene ministred to the D. that being throwne owte off his hand in whose mouthe is the gospell they might be thowght to haue bene made for defence which were forged for ouerthrow of yt For where Brentius teacheth that the ministers owght not to beare dominion ouer the churches like princes Hosius accuseth him that by the same meane he vvent about to displace Caesar And vpon like occasion that vve vvould ouerthrovv al kingdomes and superiority that men might doe vvat they liste That yf the Almans had once shaken off the Pope they vvould shake off Caesar sone after Yf these be compared with diuers off the D. accusations and namely with that page 455. lin 1. yt will be meruail that onles he were in this point taught by the same spirit Hosius was he could iump so euen not onely with the like accusation but almost with the same wordes But this shall better appeare in discours off this boke where ys shewed not onely that he hathe the like but the verie self same cause with the grossest Papistes I say the grossest for that in some pointes as off the churches election and pastorall residence there are found off them more fauorable to the trwth then he which ioining with Catholike writers both ould and of our time haue written against the estate off the Popish churche in that behalf And that no mans simplicity be abused by an owtward profession off the gospell as thowgh yt were vnlike that they which professed yt should be enimies to the trwe discipline or vncredible that the same whiche cry out off the Tyranny off Antechrist shoulde refuse the moderat and wholsom gouernement of Christ yt may please them to vnderstand that this cause hathe before this bydden the assault not off the Papistes alone but euen off them which make shew off so deadly war with papistry that the greatest force of their resistance hathe bene a feare ether pretended or vainly phansied least the gyuing place to the discipline shoulde draw after yt the popishe Tyranny Capito a man off singuler learning and godlines affirmeth that it was obiected vnto them whiche vvente about to restore the discipline that they vvould be Tyrans ouer the churche vvhich vvas free and cal back againe a nvve popedome M. Bucer SataÌ„ goeth about that by restoring of the discipline the faithfull Ministers should be thovvght to seek ambitously the same Tyranny vvhich Antechrist did M. Beza vvhen the Eldership and excoÌ„municatioÌ„ vvere to be instituted there vvaÌ„ted not vvhich cried ovvt that the popish tyranny vvas by that meanes called back again also that the magistrats office vvas therby in parte inuaded Now if these slaunders be compared with the Answerers al may vnderstand that althowgh the instrments vsed against the discipline vary in tyme and countrie yet the autor misleading some by simplicitie and thrusting other headlong throwgh couetousnes or ambition ys the same in our countrey which was then in Germany Fraunce or Sanoy For that the discipline now propounded is the same whiche suffered this coÌ„tradiction off certein professors off the Gospell shall manifestly appear in this discours and may be
abrogated For if a man will make the curse a part of all the morall lawe wher yt is rather a necessary adioinct vnto the breache of the lawe then a part therof yet notwithstanding that part off the morall lawe which standeth in commaunding and forbidding remaineth vnshaken and as concerning abrogation vntowched off our Sa. Christ Secondly it foloweth hereuppon that those iudiciall lawes off Moses which are merely politik and withowt all mixture off Ceremonies must remaine as those which hinder not the atonement off the Iewes and Gentils with God or off one off them with an other Beside that it being manifest that our Sa Christ came not to dissolue any Good gouernement off commen wealthe he can least off all be thowght to haue comme to dissolue that which him selffe had established And off this point the Ans hath twoo contrary sentences one off Musculus which saith that the iudiciall lavve is abrogated the other off Beza which is the same with that which I haue brought reasons off that is to say that the iudiciall lavve being giuen vnto the Ievves is not yet abrogated so that iff they had any estate off common vvealthe in the Land off Canaan they should be constreined to vse that forme off gouernemēt vvhich vvas gyuē vnto them of Moses Nowe albeit those lawes gyuen vnto the Iewes for that land doo not binde the Gentils in other landes for somuche as the diuersitie off the disposition of the people and state off that country gaue occasion off some lawes there which would not haue bene in other places and peoples yet forsomuche as there ys in those lawes a constant and euerlasting equitie whereuppon they were grounded and the same perfecter and farther from error then the forge off mans reason vvhich is euen in this behalffe shrewdly vvounded is able to deuise yt followeth that euē in making politike lawes for the common wealth Christian Magistraites owght to propound vnto them selues those lawes and in light of their equitie by a iust proportion off circunstances off person place c. frame them Furthermore that this equitie off the Iudiciall lawe remaineth not as a counsaile vvhich men may followe yf they list and leaue at their pleasure but as a lawe vvhereunto they be bound what better proofe can we haue then the Apostle Which after he had alledged diuers similitudes fetched off the common vse off men to proue that a Minister off the Gospell ought to be mainteined off the churches chardge vnto the aduersarie which might except that those were but humane reasons he alledgeth as the eternall lawe off God one off the Iudiciall lawes off Moses which was that a man should not mousell the mouthe of the oxe vvhich tredeth ovvt the corne Where it is manifest that he doubteth not to binde the cōscience off the Corinthes vnto the equitie off that lawe which was Iudiciall Likewise of the finding off the priestes in the seruice off the altar commaunded in the lawe he concludeth that those which preache the gospell should liue off it And this maintenance off the preistes albeit in the maner off prouision yt was ceremoniall yet as it was a reward of their seruice due by men as the punishementes also iff they had failed in their duties was mere iudiciall Whereuppon it is brought to passe that in those iudicialls to all the circumstances whereoff we are not bound we are notwithstanding bound to the equitie Yt remaineth to shewe that there are certein Iudiciall lawes which can not be chaunged as that a blasphemer contemptuous and stubborne Idolater c. ought to be put to death The doctrine which leueth this at libertie when they can alledge no cause off this loosenes but the comming off our Sauiour Christ and his passion faulteth many wayes And first yt is a childishe error to thincke that our Sauiour Christe came downe to exempt men from corporall death which the lawe casteth vppon euill doers when as he came not to deliuer from death which is the parting off the bodie from the soule but from that which is the separation bothe off bodie and soule from the gratious presence off the lord And iff it were so that our Sa. Christe had borne in his owne bodie this ciuill punishement off publike offenders yt must folowe thereupon not which the Doctor Phansieth that it is in the libertie off the Magistrate to put them to death but that he must will hee nill he yff they repent kepe them aliue For if our Sa. Christe hath answered that iustice off God in his lawe whereby he hath commaunded that suche malefactors should be put to death yt should be great iniustice to require that againe in the life off the offender So that ether our Sa. Christe hath answered that iustice off God which he requireth in his lawe concerning the death of suche offenders and then yt can not be asked againe in the bodie of the offender or els he hath not answered yt and then yt remaineth of necessitie to be answered in the life off the offender Againe this opinion ys iniurious vnto the death and whole appearing off the sonne of God in fleshe For where he appepeared for this cause that he might destroy sinne which is the worck off the Deuill the Answerer in his imagination of choise which he leueth to the Magistrate towching the putting of suche horrible offēders to death doth at vnawares as muche as in him lieth make our Sa. Christe build againe that kingdome of sinne which he hath destroyed For when bothe in common reason and by the manifest word off God before alledged the Lord giueth this blessing vnto the punishement of suche greiuous offenders by death that others not onely which see but also which heare off them haue the bridell off feare put vppon them whereby they are withholden from the like crimes yt must nedes followe that whosoeuer maketh our Sauiour Christ autor of this loosenes in punishing suche offenders maketh him forthwith to lose the bridell whereby others are staied from throwing them selues downe the hill off wickednes which was before committed And what is if this be not to make our sauiour Christe a troubler off common wealthes Moreouer if our Sa. Christe by his comming loosed thes cyuill punishementes and pourchased this grace off his Father for blasphemers c. that if they could finde fauour in the eies off the Magistrate they might escape the handes off death which the lawe off God adiudged them vnto howe cometh it to passe that the Apostels to whom the Lord committed the publishing off all that pardon which he obteined for vs did neuer make mention off the slacking of these punishements Yf our Sa. Christe had obteined this libertye yt was worthye the preachyng And therfore onles the A. can shew something owt off the vvrytinges off the Apostels to vvarrant this sanctuarye vvhich he would so faine build to the support off blasphemers murtherers c. yt followeth that the Apostles by his
are bound in the lawe of nature to punishe a murtherer by death Christian common wealthes haue two newe bondes whereby they are tied to a more streighter obseruation of this seueritie Last of al as this iudiciall lawe was giuen of God long before Moses so not to be in the nomber off lawes corrected by the comming of our Sa. Christ yt is manifest by his owne wordes whereby he confirmed this lawe of God saying that vvhosoeuer tooke vpp the svvord should perishe vvith the svvord And there is no doubt but if he had had like occasion to speake of other ciuil punishement by death established in the lawe as he had of this he would haue brought the same confirmation of them that he did off this The exceptions against this doctrine are off no valwe For if this be the truth of God there can be no prerogatiue against yt onles he can shewe some higher court then heauen and some cheif iustice aboue the Lord yt is not denied but the punishementes by death wherewith men haue established lawes which them selues haue for their better commoditie deuised may be ether mitigated or taken away by those to whom it apperteined nether is the magistrate by any thing I haue set downe bound to mitigate the punishement of theeues for their punishement may growe by the circumstance of place as in Scithia where all thinges lying opeÌ„ to the spoile had neede to belocked vp by a streighter punishemeÌ„t and some times by the disposition of the people lighter handed then others as if one had to doo with the LacedemonieÌ„s or some other nation in whom that sinne had taken deeper roote And I will not denie â–ª but euen these crimes of murther and adulterie may varie by diuers circumstances and therefore yt is in the discretioÌ„ of the magistrate according to the quantitie of the fault to appoint the maner of death sharper or softer But that there is any place time or other circumstance which can lessen these crimes that they should not be worthie of death vpon the reasons before alledged I vtterly denie As for the casting away of the studie and large volumes of the lawe which he imagineth to followe of this assertion he deceiueth hym selfe For euen when these lawes were fully in force the Iudges thereoff by reason of their shortnes comprehending many thinges not expressed had matter enoughe to occupie the greatest diligence memorie and sharpnes of vvit that could fall into any And if he aske our lawiers vppon vvhat groundes the greatest part off their houge volumes as he calleth them stand they will answer him they partly stand vppon the plaine vvordes off the lawe off Moses and partly off reason vncorrupt which is the equitie off the lawe vrged off vs And therfore althoughe our lawes be some time in forme diuerse from the lawes off Moses yet they vvill neuer graunt him which he hath not so aduisely set downe that our healthsome lawes be contrarie to Moses lawes For both being Good one off them can not be contrarie to the other where he saith that we of the clergie should be the best iudges by this meanes c. it is to open iniurie to charge vs with that vvhich vve openly renounce and condemne in him vvhich is that in medling in ciuill affaires they put their sickle in an other mans haruest Notwitstanding if in establishing of lawes for the Godly and peaceable gouernement off the common welth there may be no assistance of the ministerie wherby the lawes should be the better coÌ„passed to the equitie prescribed in the word of God and to take heede that nothing be doon against it there is no iust cawse to vphold the Bishops presence in the Parlament howse Where he saith that the lawes which our sa Christe made Mat. 5. 19 â–ª towching diuorcement for adulterie had been to no pourpose if the adulterer should off necessitie be put to death first he may be here iustly charged with that he hath vntruly surmised off me because he bringeth in our sa Christe a maker off lawes vnder the gospell whereas he made none in those places but expounded the lawe of God vvhich he had made from the beginning The other refusals made by the Iewes off their wiues were neuer any lawes but permissions onely and therefore in there abolishement there was no lawe of God abrogated Secondly yt was necessarie to vse that exposition notwithstanding that the punishement of the lawe by death remained For beside that the Iewes being vnder the gouernement off the Romanes had those ciuill punishements by death suspended vpon the pleasure off their officers which were often corrupted our sa Christe forseing all thinges did forsee what loosenes would followe in this behalfe And therfore as the office off a Good Doctor required he instructed the conscience and taught that albeit the Magistrate failed in the execution of the lawe yet that the former yoke being broken men were at their libertie to enter into a newe contract of mariadge with other Whereby he met with the corrupt opinion off those which dreame that the knot of mariadge is not cut a sunder by adulterie duriÌ„g the life of the parties maried Of the autorities which are brought to proue that the punishements by death off the lawe off God are taken away there is not one onely but Cyrill which maketh agaynst this cause yea which doth not ether in part or alltogether ouerturne his assertion And as for Cyrill I can at no hand allowe the reason shall appeeare where the clawes of this sentence are more plainly seen Augustine in the place cited vnto Pollentius hath nothing for the Doctor For he setteth him selfe to proue vppon the place off S. Iohn that the howsband ought to forgiue his wife seing our sa Christe forgaue the adulteresse Wherin not to enter into question whether that be well reasoned of Augustine or no and to passe by the aduantage which Erasmus autoritie may giue which calleth that sentence off August a hard sentence I answer that yt is one thing to say a priuate man should forgiue his iuiuries and nother thing to say that the Magistrate is not bound to take aduengement of them A priuate man may with commendation forgyue the trespace agaynst him selfe where the magistrate shal be in great fault if he poursew not yt And iff that place of August perteine vnto the Magistrate and our Sa. Christes example proue that the Magistrate neede not punishe adultery by death yt proueth as well that he neede not punishe adulterie at all For bothe our Sa. Christe forgaue her fâ—ely and gaue no sentence of any ciuill punishement against â—â—r and Augu will haue the howsband freely forgiue his adulterous wife Nay the place off Augustine maketh against him for â—n that he exhorteth the howsbaÌ„d to spare the bloud or life of his wife yt appeareth that in the church of God in his times this crime of adulterie was punished by death Musculus albeit
absurdities laied vppon this foundacion as that the promesse off the assistance off gods spirit is as well gyuen to writers of homilies and their hearers as to studiers for sermons and those which heare them as if he had saied the Lord will giue testimonie to his word as wel by the meanes which mē haue deuised as that him self hath ordeined Likewise that sermons should be kept owt off the church as well as homilies if they should be shut owt because they are mennes interpretation considering that the preacher albeit he be a man yet in respect off his publicke ministery instituted and commaund of the Lord is as the angell off God yea as Christ him self which can not be saied off homily readers nor makers especially in that respect To that I alledge off the coustome off the Churches before our Sauiour Christes comming and after towching homilies not vsed in the church and that in such time vvhen there vvas greatest vse off them he answereth that the argument is of autoritie negatiuely where I leaue to the iudgement off the reader what likelihood there is that there were any homilies red in the church whē both holy and ecclesiasticall writers making mētiō of the forme of seruice of God in the church to the least and smallest ceremonies there is none diuers 100. yeares that ones vouchesafeth to mention homilies reading which the D. matcheth with preaching the highest seruice off God in his church Where he saith that I condemne thargument drawen off mennes autoritie yt is vntrue I said it constreineth not And I spake of it where yt is question off searching the truth off a matter wherin many easely deceiued none knoweth the full off it and not off reporting thinges doone in presence off him that writeth wherof he making profession to write can not withowt grosse ouersight passe by where he saith yt is an euill argument to conclude off a thing not doon that it shovld not be doon if the churches gouerned by the Prophetes and Apostles did it not it being put as a peece off the seruice off God and as the D. saith necessary ether they faulted in not vsing this meanes which is absurd or the D. which defendeth the vse off it He saith I can not but acknowledge one good sermon red to edify more then the Chalde paraphrastes so destitute off meanes to refute the reason I set downe why a short paraphrasis was meeter then homilies namely for that they approched nerer vnto the reading off the scripture vvhich is best he setteth his cause at my courtesie But if I graūt that he asketh he is nothing nerer onles he can proue that a learned homily is fitter then a learned paraphrase made now in this great light which the Chalde paraphrastes could not haue when they wrote So that although they expounding darckly according to the time they wrote in be not so fit now to reade as an homily yet yt standeth still that a pharaphrast is fitter to be red then an homily Where he saith I know that the Iewes haue thes paraphrastes yet red I shewed both by scripture ād otherwise that they had thē not openly red when there was greatest neede off them Yf they had them after when diuers corruptions were entred or now when they are the synagogue off Satan tha◠maketh rather for me They which tould hym that Ionathan was 42. yeares before our Sauiour Christ if they ment therby to confute that I set downe should haue gyuen him something to answer the autoritie I alledged Although he might be well 42. yearers before our Sauiour Christ and then too considering he was schoole fellow to Symeon off whom S. Luke maketh mention The testimonies off Denis and Clements Epistles red in the church to proue it vntrue which I affirmed off the churches practise towching reading off the scriptures alone after the Apostles tmes are in that respect idle considering that I onely shewed that that coustome continued after their tymes which were the best and purest Nether can the breaking off this order by some churches vppon some occasion let why it may not truly be saied both the coustome and practise Yf the Centuries coniecture were receiued that Denis epistles were red as Clementes yet that proueth not that they were red generally considering that Clements was red but in certeine churches But what if it be saied that they were red in those churches for that they were vntruly thowght of the Canon of the scripture Wherto serueth not onely that Denises were called Catholike but Clements weighty and wonderfull Likewise that Euseb esteeming Clement the canonicall translatour off the epist. to the Hebrues yt is not vnlike but he had that epistle in like estimation Last off all for that as he lightly reiected the true canonicall bookes off Saint Iames Iude and second off Saint Peter so he lightly held those for canonicall which were not yf I answer thus my coniecture hath better reason then yow yet shew and then the reading off these epistles helpeth yow not yow haue onely Soters which help nothing more being red onely at Corinth Howbeit it shall be sufficient answer that as other corruptions crept in then so the seed of this began to be sowen and that the credit which yowr cawse gaineth in that diuerse churches red them yt leeseth in that diuerse others receiued them not Likewise it maketh against him that the councell giueth no place vnto homilies but in extreme cases off sicknes c. off the minister where he maketh them the peoples ordinary food The councell as it were in a great drowght or snow when all is couered will haue the sheep holpen with this hard meat the D. will haue it their commen allowance Beside that it is the obiectiō which I myself im̄ediatly after preuented my answer wherunto the D. towcheth not but onely affirmeth it a good decree and no cawse off corruption which is grosse beggery considering that I shew how vppon occasion theroff in time came in the popish Legend and Gregories homilies which iustled owt the holy Bible Where I shewed that Bucers wordes secme counterfeit wherby he is browght exhorting to encrease the nomber off homilies when the Lord should blesse the realme with learned preachers forasmuch as there were then learned preachers able to make homilies which should haue exceded the volume of the Bible he answereth that there is no cause to suspect them but the reason he can not answer After he cyteth M Ridly but fondly for if the autority off all those which established that order be not able to make yt good much lesse his alone and being a party in this cawse he owght not albeit a singular mā be witnes Where I alledged the councell councell of Laodicea ordeining that nothing should be red in the church but the canonicall scripture he answereth the councell ment nothing vnder the name of holy scriptures which is an open and shamefull corruption for
partly vnderstode both by Capâ—â—â—â— letters written to comfort a ministre off Geneua then Wrestling for yt as by Bezas wordes which particularly note one or two partes therof Nether can disagreemeÌ„t of the fauourers thereoff in interpretation of some place signification of some word alteration off some circumstance yf any be hinder this no more then diuers pictures off one face hauing al the same great and principal drawghts can hinder vs from acknowledging the same visage in them al albeit one be more coningly drawn then other haue more liuely and orient couloures then other haue one smal line more or les then other Onles peraduenture men wil be so vnaduised to denie the doctrine off the Gospell to be the same professed at Geneua at Zurick at Witemberg because the professors had in some smaller points their seueral Iudgements Another principall kinde off artillery wherwith the D. leueleth at this wal off church discipline is â—haccusation off Anabaptistry This also as may appeare is taken from the Papistes For when the persequuting off the churche in Fraunce where together with the doctrine this discipline was established was misliked off the Almanes the French to appease them said there vvere none so cruelly handled but Anabaptists and troublesome felovves vvhich vvould ouerthrovv not religion onely but the vvhole order off the commeÌ„ vvealth And althowgh the D. hath in this behalf trauailed mightily and gathered as yt were a heape off stones to throw at vs yet for feare off being conuincted off so manifest vntrwthes he dare not throw one but priuilie and as yt were vnder hand saying he will not accuse any he will not condemne any that is he will forsothe not flea vs him self but hould our legs while other flea vs But he shal neuer so escape the iudgemement off god For yf he were giltie which kept their garments that cast the stones how much more shall he that put stones in their handes althowgh yf we were suche we owght so to be noted that others might take heed off suche detestable heretikes All which false surmises with diuers others of Donatism Papism puratanism We might with one sentence off the holy man Iob haue refuted For so are they not onely vntrw but for the moste parte without al colour of trwth that taking our aduersaries boke off accusations vpon our shoulders and applying them vnto our heades that al might read and see them wee might as off a crovvne or robe haue receiued commendation by them Howbeit because there was some daunger least the D. lofty titles and glittering estate might ether seduce som simple ones or vtterly carie away those whose mindes were forestalled with some preiudice against the cause we maintein I thowght good once at large aÌ„d peece by peece to lay forth the vnworthines of his accusations Now I see there is no end of his vnhonest charges I meane not by further answer in poursuit off his oulde or auoiding his nwe ether weary my selfe or the reader For seing the vntrwth off them is in the eies and eares off all why shoulde I trauaile to stop his Throate which as an open sepulchre off vntrw sumises wil as seemeth neuer with any reasonable answer be filled vp And that yow may haue a taste off his equitie note I beseche yow his answers vnto our defence This is wel said if vnfained These glorious wordes are but mistes to blind the eies off the simple The Anabaptistes would saie the like Verely if they say so they shall deteste them selues with all their wicked phantasies and gyue as sounde a Confession of the trwth as the Doctor can make any But let vs imagin him selfe accused off all these pointes which he surmiseth of vs I would gladly know what he would answer Let him conceiue his purgation as effectually and in as good wordes as he can make al the protestations he can offer him self to what examination he can how easie ys yt for his aduersarie with the same equitie he vseth towardes vs to dashe al. This is wel said but it is fained there was neuer heretike which to hide bis poison pretended not some colour off truth c. And by the grace off God we are as far yea further also as shall appeare from al pointes off Anabaptisme then he But saith he let the like effectes proceding of like causes and in like maner iudge the likelihoode betweene the Anabaptistes and them Truly yf he proue the causes like the controuersie is at an â—â—de And if the searche off the trwth had bene his marke here he would haue begon where the triall is certaine and not off the effectes Which allthowgh they be falsly surmised yet some are suche as maie ensue albeit after another sorte aswell the preaching off the trwth as the publishing off falshood And surely if the Anabaptistes when they rose in Germany had met with suche confuters yt is very like that they now put to flight would haue occupied the greatest part off it But the godlie mynisters assured of a good cawse prouoked to most solemn disputations where all seyng their vanities might learne to deteste them and them selues made to vnderstand their folies might be stricken with shame which might bringe repentance This they did by example off the Godlie learned in times past and off Augustine namely Who prouoketh the Donatistes and Manichies to Disputation in the hearing off all his church This cause therfore if yt should not preuaile by force off trwthe yt must gaine throwghe the indirecte meanes and cowardly fight off the Answerer so far from procuring this trial that he accuseth me as desirous of popular praise because refusing his priuat confeâ—rence as he some where hath affirmed I onely put him in minde of a disputacion Wherto also perteineth that he counteth yt Anabaptistical that this ys propounded in places where the gospell hath bene alredy planted As if there were a fitter place to propounde the Discipline then vvhere the doctrine hathe allredie beene receiued where shoulde the vvall be fitlier made then where the citie is before builded Where the diche caste but where the Orcheyarde is alreadie planted Yf yt had bene preached where was ignorance or small knowledge of the gospell the would haue taken great aduantage for that they might so haue abused the blindnes of their heares to cause them beleue that which those that haue their eyes open could not be brought vnto Now they preache in places vvhere the gospell was planted he will make that also serue for a stepp for his accusation to clime vp by So that howsoeuer we behaue our selues what commoditie off circumstance soeuer we haue the D. hathe suche an engine that he can not onely cause yt not to serue for vs but also make against vs For sure I am no place could haue bene les suspected then London and Cambridge two off the highest hills in all the realme from whence bothe the sounde off yt might
peoples consent owght to be in the election off their Pastor Not vnlike to this is that wherby vpon a rule brought and applied as well by other learned men as by me to the Ecclesiasticall election he would insinuate that I meant yt should be translated to the ciuill estate Where appeareth that there is no sparke off equitie in him For if the rule were giuen generally then my applying of it onely to Ecclesiasticall elections doth rather call yt from being vnderstanded off the ciuil if it be giuen of it alone then it is clere that I vsed it accordingly Beside that I haue shewed that it is far otherwise in the ciuill then in the Ecclesiasticall gouernement and that thinges vnlawful in one are notwithstanding lawful in the other But thus must I restore that I neuer toke and be accused off thinges vvhich I not onely neuer did but not so muche as knovv off Here also falseth an other accusation of flatterie off the people with iniurie to the magistrate Where him selfe gyueth me at least this testimonie that I haue bene euil scholed in that craft which haue chosen masters that can do so litle for me Yf the state off our commen wealth had bene suche as wherin the people had born the sway his accusation vntrw should yet haue had some colour off trwth An other accusation is off wrong in not setting downe his boke as one looth it should be compared and for fear my corrupt dealing should appear But this accusation lieth against the most part of learned men which hauing confuted aduersaries off the trwth haue not onely not set downe there bokes but not giuen their readers so particular addres for conference as I did Here therfore ether let him absolue me or condemn me with them That I did yt not in suche respect as he saith I haue protested the truth wheroff shall now appear And withall that notwithstanding his setting downe let the reader iudge whither he vseth as he saith off me friuolous replies childish collections fraudulent deprauing off my boke Beside that he hath passed by diuers reasons off mine vntowched yea and as shal God willing hereafter appeare guilfully left out of his own boke in one or two places And because I am entred into his dealing hauing bene tied now full two yeares to turn this stone of his writinges it wil not be amis to admonish of some of his practises wherby the reader may the better know how to turn himself in them ether present or to come if he kepe on the some course In the reste therfore off his boke beside reproches furmises c one part is spent in naked affirmacions withowt proof vented often by questions etherfond or from the purpose and in dry testimonies off men both which are as other his furniture repeated and that sometimes again and again That where the Cuckow trobleth but once a year he with his vntunable repetitions off one thing to the same purpose trobleth all the year long Yet hath he euery hand while to be short In his testimonies beside that yt shall appeare that so many as make to the cause they are almost euery one ether falsified or drawen from the meaning of the autors yt is first to be obserued that to answer the places off scripture alledged yt is verie like that he first turneth to Maister Caluin if he be against him he goeth to aske fauour at other if no body answer nothing yet he bringeth sondry times euen that nothing that is to say which maketh not for him sometime also against him Secondly where in his former boke he propoundeth certein thinges as his own not able to maintein them in this he callethe for the autors assistance of whom he hath not so muche borowed them as taken them against their willes yet he counteth yt vaine glorie to take owt off an autor and to conceale his name Notwithstanding if he had knowen from whom his collections came which he vseth and had bene thankfull to his autors in that sort he saith we owght we should often haue had in the margent for Augustin Ambrose Chrysostome c. Pigghius Hosius Harding c. To let pas diuerse reasons I gaue him which he neuer thaÌ„ked me for but hideth them as well as he can by taking them vp before hand or he came to the place where I giue them Thirdly where his autoritie is nameles and goethe vnder this generall title other learned men thinck otherwise a learned man saith so haue yt for suspected off popery For that in some off those places he can haue no other autors but Papistes as I am persuaded Last off all that he doth often bately recite them vvithowt applying them to his matter or gathering his argument off them The cause vvheroff is for that they are not hable to beare any argument the vanity wherof vvould not forthewith appeare if it vvere gathered Which is manifest for as muche as vvhere any colour off argument dothe but peep there he presseth them diligently vvhich practise he vseth in his other proofes albeit he precisely reprehendeth it in the autors off the Admonition Touching the other part of that which remaineth in his boke standing ether of his reasons against our cause or answeres off the reasons against his â—in bothe yow may obserue that the prouing off that in question by that which is likewise dowbted of occupieth a great roume In his answers to mine he will often acknowledge no argument Because yt is not set down in the precise ether order off propositions or other exact form of Sillogism Which I thinck is a streighter law then any writer hetherto hath bene bound vnto yet I will not refuse it if he vvil giue me an example the matter hauing now bene so largely debated to the vnderstanding of the simpler sort Let him therfore if he dare trust his cause deal that way an other vvhile As for diuers particular faultes in his lodgick and grammer throwgh euill translation considering that they bring no preiudice to the truth in question and hurting not the vnlearneder are quickly espied off the other I am well content to hould back Thus muche to the Answerers both generall and particular accusations and surmises in suche sort aâ— I meane God willing neuer vpon any his importunity to returne vnto againe For as for that page 21. line 3. and suche other as haue manifest confutation in the places owt off vvhich they are raised they are most vnworthy the naming Hauing spoken thus muche for their causes especially which misinformed by the D. haue no good opinion of the discipline now propounded yt remaineth to say something for theirs vvhiche acknowledging yt for the trwth off God doe not stretch forth their handes to bring yt in or at the least not with that endeuour which owght to be Wherin yt seemeth they doe not so fully consider that before alledged of the vse of the discipline the same in the churche that the
wal abowt the citie or hedg about the orcheiard Yf we thinck that men vvhiche vvoulde be safe from their enemies need not greatly to trauail after a wal or they which vvould haue their tender plantes bring plentifull fruict and be vntowched off hurfull beastes not muche to labour after a hedg or diche for safegarde of them then we may also thinck that the church and the doctrine of the Apostels wherupon the church is builded may long continw and florish vvithowt the discipline lefte by them But if the one be not to be looked for the hoping for the other will but deceiue vs Whereof if there were no proof but our own experience the case is clearer then can be wel denied For vvhereof cometh it that so many thowsandes I will not say of men and women but of townes and villages remain in suche ignorance of all dutie towards God and their neighbour that the estate off their ox vvhiche vvith his last breath shal end his labour and hear no more the voice of the whip is a thousand times better then theirs vvhom euerlasting tomentes of body and sowl vvait for and must assuredly ensue if they so remaine Cometh it not hereof that in steed of a learned ministery vvhiche shoulde shewe them the right way be thrust vppon them at the pleasure or permission off the bishop and appetite off the patrone blinde guides vvhich scarce knowe a foot of it them selues yea which sometimes as cometh to pas in sondry popishe priestes that remaine endeuour to turn them out off the way if happily any were entred Wheroff cometh it that off those which haue able ministers to feed them diuers townes can not yet get owt of this condēnation ys it not thereof that some pastors like couetous nourses charging them selues with moe then they are able to nource suffer them all to starue that other some more vnnaturall then the dragons them selues which laie owt their brestes vnto their yong by dispensation turn awaie their faces quite from them whose mouthes are almost neuer open to teache but vvhen their handes are likewise to receiue And if some in a good intent to help many lend one hande to one congregation and his other vnto another yet when ether of them require both handes to be pulled owt off the mire wherin they stick so fast his fault being a great deal les then the others the peoples condemnation remaineth the same Wheroff also ys y◠that in diuers off those Townes where the gospell hath daily shined the darcknes of ignorance hath not bene put to flight Cometh yt not thoroff that many speaking smally to purpose off the text they handle or blowing vp their sermons ether with poetes fables sayinges off Philosophers and that oft in straunge language amaze them rather with a wōndermēt of their learning then edifie thē in faith and trw repentance And not that onely but therby also bring them owt of al tast with all simple and plain kind off teaching so that they which doe not so are called by reproche English Doctors Which by oftē meetings of the ministers in exercice off Prophecie or interpretacion of some scripture through mutual censures and admonitions would easely be remedied Wheroff is it that euen vvhere the gospel is soundly and abūdandly taught knowledg hath not accordingly folowed Ys it not therof that the principles and groundes of religiō are not by Catechism laid forth that those of whose ether capacity or diligēce yt is doubted are not that a supply may be made particulerly examined Wheroff cometh yt that Arians Valentinians and Anabaptistes in diuers sortes with suche other detestable heretikes are so rife in many places of the land Ys it not therof that there is no eldership which might assist the pastor to espie them out no pastorable by substancial reasons to conuince them no autoritie there to decide of them or after decision by ecclesiasticall censures to punish them Wheroff cometh yt that horrible blaspheming the holy and most reuerend name of God quarreling and fighting dronckennes filthy speaking fornicatiō adultery slaundering and suche like run ouer almost in euery place off which some are so open that there is no night or corners sowght to hid them but are doen in the high streates and at noon daies yea which is fearful that often there is more daunger to them that reproue these faultes then to those which cōmit them Ys it not hereof that there is no eldership to watche ouer these offences to admonish the offenders and by ecclesiasticall censures to correct them Wheroff cometh it that in so many excellent lawes prouided against roges and beggers there are yet to the manifest breach of the law of God and hasard of the commen wealth such nombers Ys it not heroff that the office off Deacons which god had ordeined for that purpose the bare name remaining is abolished and that the Lord will giue no blessing to those good lawes because his order is neglected Finally hereof it cometh that hauing a gracious Prince mainteining and her honorable Counsall fauoring the preaching of the gospell in so long and quiet peace apt for the furtherance off yt there is notwithstanding so smal fruict that sauing a few which the lord hath gathered for the generall estate of the Realme the Gospell may seem hetherto rather to haue shined for further condemnation of it then for light or heat of saluation ioined therwith what price therfore we set of the glory off God what accompt we make off the saluacion of our countrey that estimacion we must kepe off the discipline off God left vnto vs by his holy Apostels This if it were deeply weighed it would cause vs to breakthrowgh the lets which I see stay some and make other some to faint in the furtherance of this cause For some whiche desire that this cause might gaine throwgh a mind abhorring from contention especially inward an with them of the same religion stande further of from yt then otherwise they would Wherin I willingly acknowledge Rebeccas affection a figure off the churche off god For notwithstanding she praied vnto the lord for children yet feeling them striue within her Womb wished she had neuer conceiued But alas the state off men is not so happy to obteine any excellent thing without strift Errors and falshood haue often times easy entrance whilest the husbandmen sleep but because the ennemy alwaies waketh the trweth must fight or euer she can get any thing wherin to pas by an infinite number of examples that which is proper to this place off the daungerous assaultes which this cause suffered at Geneua ys worthy off your consideration For albeit the contention there was not in Iudgement onely and in wordes but with great disorders and tumultes to the present daunger off the citie yet M. Caluin and other faithfull seruantes of God offred them selues not onely to los off their ministery and banishment but euen to death rather then
they would goe one foot back from that truth off the discipline which they had learned owt off the word off God which had bene rashly doen if the matter had bene off so smal importance as that for redeming off peace they might haue let the cause of the disciplin fal or laid it aside vntill a fitter time There are God be praised no tumultes nor vprores with vs and I hope there shal be none but as yt is not lawful for vs to moue any so to withdraw the hand from defense off the cause for feare of them to be moued by others is against dutie There are others which as the espies off the land of Canaan confessing it good and profitable for the churche yet in respect of the manifold lets affirme it a thing impossible and therby not onely discorage them selues but weaken the handes off other And euen here also I see Rebecca again For yt appeareth by the lordes answer vnto her tvvo peoples should be deuided ovvt of her bovvls that she was in some dispair off hauing strenght to be deliuered of her desired seed considering the daungerous wrestlings and struglinges in her womb And in deed if we consider our selues if we look vpon our own armes I graunt the walles against it are higher then will be scaled the gates and barres are stronger then wil be broken throwgh the children come to the birth there wil be no strenght to bring forth For herein casting our accōptes we must wait for not onely the misliking of our brethern which be misled the hatred of the obstinat Papistes which see their kingdō vnreparable if this get place but the deadly enimities off Hypocrites and Atheistes which wil not suffer their vntamed lustes to come vnder any yoke off correction nor their lose affections off riotous pleasures proud ambition and vnsatiable couetousnes to be bound vvith any bandes off wholesome discipline But of the other side if we look vnto the lord and his mighty arme which not onely with a blast of his mouth striketh the walles and breaketh the gates in peeces but also maketh the high walles to fall and the yron gates to open of their owne accord which maketh not onely the weak but euen the barē women to bring forth No difficulty or impossibilitie in the iudgement off men owght to turne vs from any lawfull endeuour to promote the cause The example off the wall in Ierusalem finished notwithstanding al the enimies serueth here for our confirmation For if the lord stretched forth his hand for furtherance of that material wall he will not in the aduauncing off this spiritual hould it in his bosome Yf he forsoke not his seruantes vnder heathen Princes he will not be wanting to them vnder Christian Hetherto belongeth the example in Geneua before mentioned The whole estate off the Citie almost from the highest vnto the lowest amongest whom were also the greatest part off the ministers was bent against yt two or three simple men scarce able to traine their legges after them hauing no other armour then the trwth and a good conscience stand for it Yf flesh and bloud should here sit in iudgement the field were lost or euer yt were begun the freendes off the discipline should for that they toke the defense in hand be accounted fooles for that they would not cōpound the matter mad men But what was the issue Verily the Lord so magnified his word in the hand of his seruātes that after trial off their patience by diuers troubles the Capitaines against yt came to shameful end a number yealded the rest that continued their enemitie durst not shew yt the trwth yt self was established and so to the singuler commendation off that citie remaineth And shall we in so great a nomber whose heartes the Lord hath inclined to fauour this cause despaire especially seing yt ys easier to be established with vs then with them and may here be setled withowt so muche as a dog mouing his tong which was not there withowt daungerous vprores For where no wholsom law can pas there onles the most part consent onely the hundreth part with vs weigheth down all the rest Yt remaineth that as the Iwes in the wal off Ierusalem did euery one according to the abilitie the Lord had blessed them with builde his part so those whose hartes the lord hath lightened with the knowledg of this truth should as their callings and meanes which the lord hath giuen them will serue lay their handes to the work That those whom the lord hath giuen fauour or acces vnto her maiestie would set before their eies the exāple of that worthy courtier Nehemias which forgetting his priuat profit and preferment for full recompence of all his faith full seruice vnto his Prince was glad to obtein at his hand the building vp of the walles off the citie of God and therfore not to reserue the grace and credit they haue with her highnes for their owne matters but to bestow yt vpon the Lordes That the Prince her selfe woulde consider how to let pas the daunger vnto her sowle vnworthy yt ys off her honour if throwgh vntrw reportes ether against the cause or fauourers therof she turne away her eare from hearing and taking knowledge of it seing a heathen king did not admit suche rumors against that which concerned the glory off God althowgh they were offred thick and three fould and that by his one coutrey men against the Iwes whiche were but straungers Finally that we all continually pray to the lord that he would vouchsafe to open their eies whiche are yet ignorant in this behalf confirme those which haue knowledge and confound thē if any be which ether for honour or lucres sake willingly bend thē selues against the trueth To the reader THe cause off the slovvnes of ansvver hath bene in part my often sicknes and vvant off bookes off all Sortes a fevv onely excepted vvhich I brovght vvith me and those for the most part English so that for euery Place almost cited off the D. I vvas constreined to seek in other mens libraries and after I had vsed the book to cary it home againe VVhich vvith vvhat los of time yt vvas may easely be estemed Ad hereunto the slacknes off the print For althovvgh yt had bene my singuler aduantage both for polishing and better ordering off thinges to haue put nothing vnder the pres before the vvhole book had bene finished yet beginning to print after I had made an end off one treatise and begon an other yt vvas notvvithstanding scarce able to ouertake me Amongest the causes vvhy I set forth one part before the vvhole vvas ended one ys for that this former part rose to a iust volume An other that if any thing haue escaped vvhich may be hurtfull vnto the trvvth I might being aduertised amend yt in the later part vvheroff I desire the Godly reader vvith as conuenient speed as he can to gyue me vnderstanding The
it hath some smale force in humane sciences for as muche as naturallie and in that he is a man he maye come to some rypenes off Iudgement in those sciences Which in diuine maters hathe no force at all as off him which naturally and as he is a man can no more Iudge off them then a blind man off colours Yea so farre is it from drawing credite if it be barelie spoken withowt reason and testimonie off Scripture that it carieth also a suspition off vntrewth whatsoeuer proceded from him which the Apostle did well note when to signifie a thing corruptlie spoken and against the truthe he saith that it is spoken according vnto man he saith not as a wicked or lying man but symplie as a man And althowghe this corruption be reformed in manye yet forsomuch as in whom the knowledge of the truthe is most advāced there remaineth bothe ignorance and disordered affections wheroff either turneth him from speaking off the truth no mans authoritie withe the church especiallie and those that are called and perswaded off the authoritie off the word off God can bring any assurance vnto the conscience So that iff all that the D. affirmeth were trew as it is vntrue and iff all those authorities which are alledged were faithfullie and according to the meaninge off the writers cited as they are almost all writhen and falsified yet being for the most part vpholden by the bare authoritie and credite off men they can giue no reste to any Christian conscience which shall leane vppon them And iff he saye that those men haue not spoken withowt reason and warrant off the word of god then besides that he is greatly to blame that bringeth not the reasons which moued them to thinke so and wherupon as vppon certen pillers that sentence might stand it falleth owt still against him that the argument off authoritie hathe no force as that which hathe no credit off it selffe but as altogither lame is faine to borowe feete off an other And then the D. should haue considered that for so muche as the reason off authoritie standeth for the cause and sake off an other that is to saye for the argument off causes and other places it must needes be worse then the arguments wherupon it hangeth for that for whose cause another thinge is is better thē the thing which dependeth vpon it And therby further followeth that forsomuch as reason withowt authoritie is good and authoritie withowt reason nothing worthe that those argumentes whiche are grounded vpon reasons are better then those which are grounded vppon authoritie And wheras peraduenture he will seke some colour of defence off his absurd speache in the wordes which he addeth of suche learned men as do rightly interprete the scripture that addition as it taketh not awaye from the absurditie so it addeth to the folie and impropretie of speche For besides that he taketh that for graunted which is the question that is to saye whether it be rightlie interpreted or noo he should haue vnderstanded that the rightnes of the interpretation depēdeth not vpon the authoritie of the man or in that suche a godlie or learned man did so interprete it but in that the place is expounded agreablie vnto the suite of the texte And that the D. which vnder the name off auncient authoritie would oppresse the truthe may vnderstand that euen in this magnifiyng of authoritie he is not so good a scholer o◠disciple off his pretended masters of diuerse sentences off the fathers them selues wherby some haue likened them vnto brute beastes withowt reason which suffer themselues to be led by the iudgement and authoritie off others some haue preferred the iudgement of one simple rude mā alledging reason vnto companies off learned men I will content my selffe at this time with two or thre sentences Ireneus saith Vvhatsoeuer is to be shevved in the scripture can not be shevved but of the scriptures thē selues 3. l. 12. c. Iero. saith No man be he neuer so holie or eloquent hathe any authoritie after the Apostles Augustin saith that he vvill beleue none hovv godly and lerned so euer he be vnles he confirme his sentence by the scriptures or by some reason not cōtrary to them And in an other place heare this the Lord saith heare not this Donatus saithe Rogatus saithe Vicentius saith Hilarius saith Ambrose saith Augustin saithe but harken to this the Lord saithe And againe hauinge to doo withe an Arrian affirmeth that neither he ovvght to bringe forthe the councell off Neece nor the other the councell of Arimin therby to btinge preiudice eche to other neither ovvght the Arrian to be houlden by the authoritie off the one nor him selffe by the authoritie of the other but by the scriptures vvhiche are vvitnesses proper to neither but common ro bothe matter vvith matter cause vvith cause reason vvith reason ovvght to be debated And in another place against Petiliane the donatian hereticke he saith Let not these vvordes be heatd betvvene vs I Saye yovv Saye let vs heare this Thus saithe the lord and by and by speaking off the scriptures he saithe there let vs seeke the churche there let vs trie the cause Here yt is manifest that the argument of authoritie off man affirmatiuely is nothing worthe which the answerer notwithstanding maketh so great accounts off likewise that reason whiche is not directly against the trewth is preferred to authoritie which the A. denieth and if Augustin thowght that in a matter off controuersie the authoritie off so manye godlie and learned fathers as were assembled at that Councell off Nece interpeting the scriptures rightlie owght not to be alledged not onelie to condemne and conuince but not so muche as to preiudice an heresie long agoo condemned iff he would haue the trewth tried by the scripture onely let all men iudge how euill a folower off Augustin the D. is which in the authoritie of one or two men layeth so great weight that he thinketh that kinde off proufe to be the best proufe off his and ouerthrowe off his aduersaries cause And iff at any time it happened vnto him as it did against the Donatistes ▪ and others to alledge the authorite off the auncient fathers which had bene before him yet that was not done before be had layed a sure foundation off his cause in the scriptures and that also being prouoked by the aduersaries off the treuth who bare themselues highe off some Councell or off some man off name that had fauoured their parte And therfore iff the A. would salue this with the example off Augustin in other places yet for that he neuer in any cause laieth any foundation either of any scripture or colour of scripture ād being prouoked flieth still from it as from the rocke and sandes o his cause it is clere that if he had that authoritie which he pretendeth vntrulie on his side yet the vse off it in this sorte were bothe by the rule off
him that faulteth that waies to be no meÌ„bre off the churche S. Paule found greater scismes in the churche off Corinthe then those were and yet he rebuked them withe an other spirite then yow vse neiter dothe he cut them of from the church but in the spirite off mildnes restoreth them And iff yow had learned that yow ought not to breake a brused reede nor quenche the smoking flaxe yow would haue dealte otherwise then yow doe Yf so be that the churche of England were reformed as yow would beare vs in hande and the Bishops by castinge owt off their ministers owt off their churches had not giuen the occasion of suche departure the departure had bene more vntollerable And therfore as muche as yow add to the amplisyinge of their faulte so muche yow encrease off the sinÌ„e of the bishops which withowt iust cause gaue occasion of that division There is great difference betwene the preaching off the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the preaching off those brethren for the Anabaptistes and other heretikes preachinges be with the vpholding off their false opinions and doctrine contrarie to Scripture werwith yow are not able to charge them in the least pointe but that in all doctrine whiche yow preach truely they preach the same withe yow And vvhere yow saie Disiuncrely that oftentimes the word of god is preached amongest the Anabaptistes and heretikes or the Sacramentes administred in those congregations which yow make Anabaptistes or like vnto them bothe the worde was preached and the Sacramentes Ministred togither And therfore if yow did purposely put that Or rather then and then whilest yow vvrote your conscience offred yow a manifest difference betwene the Anabaptistes and those brethren And iff yow did not put yt purposely but meane that in the conuenticles off the Anabaptistes and heretikes bothe the vvord off god is preached and his sacramentes administred speaking so precisely I would gladlie know off yow vvhat difference yow make betwene the conuenticles of the Anabaptistes and heretikes and the churche off God seing that the preaching off the word and ministring off the sacramentes are the infallible notes thereoff Ind this ought to haue giuen yow occasion off a softer worde yff yow had not bene driuen by the tempeste of your affection rather then led by any quiet and staied iudgement off the truthe Because it is your oulde wont and either yowe can not or wil not proue or improue your sayinges by the word off god I will not stand to note how that vppon Augustins worde onelie withowt any proufe owt off the word off god yow haue here cut a numbre from the churche yf yow bind so harde and locke so fast yow should haue brought the bonde and Keye off the word off god that the conscience which onely looketh vnto the word off god seinge it selffe in that daunger might be carefull to seeke how to be deliuered The glosse and the Text varie here For the one in saying that it standeth me good name vpon to bring them owt which are free wil men and holde consubstanstantiation semeth to denie that there be any suche The other by saying that theÌ„re are not so manye and that they are not iustified do the indirectlie confesse it And if yt were not confessed the thinge is so notorious that albeit I name them not yet I nede not to feare the supition off vntruthe in that which hathe so manie witnesses And where yow saye there are not so many off them as off those whom yow most falsely and slaunder ouslie call puritanes As I reioice therin in the behalffe off the churche off England so it standeth not by any diligence good foresight or discipline off yours that the churche swarmeth not with them seinge they are suffred to haue the highest places in the churche vvhere vvith the leuaine off their false doctrine they may sowre not one towne as it vvere thre peckes but vvhole shires as it vvere a vvhole heape or fatte or other off the largest measures off the lordes meale in our countrey And so althoughe they be not by wordes mainteined yet they are in deede not onelie mainteined but also by suche sufferance in those places rewarded Vnto the nine next sections I answere nothinge In the laste section 45. pag. vnto the places off Saint Paul vvherby I proue that yt is no breache off trew Christianitie to alter in iudgement he answereth that the Apostles meaning is not that men shoulde be dailie altering their iudgement and broching new opinions which is no answer to the question For althowghe we maie not dailie broche newe opinions yet vve owght to correcte our oulde errors as often as we are made vnderstande them So that vnles he will saye that those which beleue the gospell are vvithowte the daunger off error in thinges perteining to the gouernement off the churche c. or that when they knowe their errors they shoulde not amende them boothe which are absurde it muste needes folowe that he goeth abowte to abuse the reader vvhiche vppon that vve haue chaunged Iudgement vvoulde drawe vs into the suspition off lightnes and vnconstancie And seing the churche off Englande chaunged the booke of common praier twise or thrise after yt had receiued the knowledge of the gospell and allwaies corrected some thinge off that whiche yt helde for good before either the answerer must condemne those alterations as childishe and vnconstant or els he must confesse that a whole churche lightened wythe the knowledge off the gospell and established in a certeine order off gouernement maye with owte feare off suspition off that liÌ„ghtenes which he dooth surmise displace the former order and place an other Vnto the 4. nexte I answer nothing sauing that where the glosse chargeth me with contrarietie I desire the reader to consider what contraririe or what colour off contraritie there is betwene thes sayinges the churche can not longe continevve vvithovvt common vvelthes and the churche maye be established vvithovvt a Christian magistrate Yff I had saide that the churche might be established witheowt a magistrate then there had bene some likelyhood off the contrarietye he surmyseth But he shoulde vnderstande as longe as their be magistrates althowghe they be not onely vnchristian but Tyrannicall and persequuting yet the blessing which the lorde geueth vnto his owne ordinance so ouercometh all their malice that ther ceaseth not come euen from that disordered gouernement some thinge to the preseruacion of the churche The answer which his glosse asketh for towching churlishe ansvvering althowghe yt deserued none is page 177. and he coulde not be ignorante but I referred him in the answer to the seuenth article Vnto the firste parte off the laste Section page 47. I answer nothing For answer vnto the later parte towching the place of Timothe wherby he wolde proue that men maye offer them selues to the ministerie I will referre the reder to the treactise off the discipline off â—he churche lately set forthe where this is answered
examination be necessary for a deacon yt is muche more necessary for the minister againste that he saide that the fixt off the Actes coulde not serue to proue any thinge touching the ministers election because yt was off deacons he answerethe not but passethe by quietly and maketh no wordes But his other sayinge that there is no mention made off any tryall he holdethe still for good askinge me what one worde off tryall is there I answere that albeit there be not this worde trie yet ther is that which wayeth as muche for the greake worde loke ovvte can not be seuered from a triall And if S. Luke had but vsed the symple verbe which in our tounge signifieth consider yet that off yt selffe had force to haue leade the chusers to a tryall off them which were to be chosen nowe vsinge the compounde thereby he laide vppon them a greater necessitie and a more carefull diligence off triall off them Where iff the Aposteles had not mente herby to haue called the church to a diligente serche and tryall off those which were to bee choosen they woulde haue contented them selues to haue saide take from emongest you c. And althoughe the whole churche had knowledge off those which were the fittest to be chosen to that office which is bothe vnlike and almoste impossible seinge there were certeine thowsandes off late added vnto the churche yet euen those which are well knoweÌ„ vnto vs when they be to be chosen vnto suche great charges are to be inquired into a freshe For that knowledge off a man whiche is sufficiente for vs to liue with him in priuate societie and common course off life is not enoughe to promote him to suche a dignity in the churche and that experience off one vppon confidence wheroff wee durste truste him with our weightiest affaires is not sufficiente thereupon to commit vnto him the lordes matters So that consideringe the weighte off an ecclesiasticall office the manifolde creuisses off mans dissimulation with the dullnes off our sighte to espie them there can be no feare off too muche triall eueÌ„ off those whiche we thinke we knowe already And therfore allthoughe the whole churche had knowledge off those which were apte for that office yet the Apostels admonition off diligent considering whome they chose which coulde not be withowt tryall was not owte off time Againe that the Apostels giue in charge vnto the churche that they shoulde chose suche as had testimonie off there good behauiour perteineth to the examination for the churche in seking testimonie off there good conuersation tried them what they where And vnles this be tryall towching the conuersation off him which is to be chosen minister in the churche of England there is no tryall at all considering that the triall which is had is by the testimonie off certeine So I conclude that this place off the actes makinge for the examination off the Deacon is muche more stronge for the examination of the minister To the nexte section I answere not Diuis 4. What is in the begining off the boke because you set it not downe and I haue not the boke to see I will leaue to euery one to consider Howbeit the wordes which I alledge owte off yt where speaking to the Archedeacons he saithe Take heede that the persons vvhom you presente vnto vs be apre and meerâ— c. declare that the bishope passethe his election vppon the only examination off his Archedeacon But yt makethe no great matter howe many examine seinge the election and ordination hangeth only vppon the Bishoppes pleasure And he partly seinge that all the matter standeth in the courteousie off the Bishoppe and partly as yt semeth willinge that that gowlfe shoulde swallowe vpp all other mens interrestes in this election setteth him selfe to proue yt And where as I alledged that yt is not safe in so vveightie a mater to coÌ„mit that to the powre of one vvhich may be vvith lesse daunger doone by many he goeth abowt to proue that the bishoppe is off all other fittest for that matter Wherin obserue that the D. is quyte goone from the cause For the question is not whether he be off others most fytt but vvhether yt be fytt that he alone shoulde doe it So that if he will haue it a reasone againste the cause this yt is The bishoppe is more hable then any one to make a good examination therfore more hable to make yt then a great sorte more hable to make yt then any one therfore more hable to make yt alone then when he hath other ioyned with him Which is all one as iff he shoulde haue saide The righte hande is more apte to doe thinges then the lefte therfore yt is better they be doone by yt alone then with the helpe off the lefte I doe not here take exception againste the longe experience in thes thinges which he saithe the bishoppe hathe yet he cannot haue it at his first orderiÌ„ge of ministers aÌ„d others mighte haue yt as wel as he if the examinatioÌ„ were as well permitted vnto theÌ„ as vnto him I medell not also with the bishopes either sounde learning or ruled affections which what they be in some is well knowen what theye maye be consideringe that they be not tied to the rochet yt is easie to be considered Let him be as well experienced learned affected as suche a bishopp maie be yet hath he wonne nothinge by all this but that the bishopp owght not to be shute oute in this examination Where he saithe Surely if any one man or mo be voyd off such affefections and thought meet to haue such matters committed vnto him yt is the Bishopp yt had bene good he had assured that Surely with some reason otherwise yt must as yt is be holden for an vnshamfaste begging of that which is denied And off the same sorte is that which followeth that if he be worthie the office off a bishope he maie safely be credited with al thinges incideÌ„t vnto the same for this is that which lieth between vs whether yt be incident to the office off a bishoppe to haue thonely examination off those which are chosen to the ministerie Which yff I coulde geue you I woulde to be ridd off thes importunat askinges Yâ— followethe not because ciuill matters whiche touche the commoditie off this liffe maie be committed to one therfore ecclesiasticall also whiche concerne the liffe to come maie be so hazarded Nay for so muche as maÌ„s insighte into ciuille affaires and iudgement in them is sharper then in matters perteininge to the churche it is cleare that there ye more helpe required in thes then in the other Besides that when as princes by takinge counsailes vnto them in their weightie affaires off the whole realme and for better deciding off priuate mens causes appoincte whole beâ—ches off Iustices standing off fiue or sixe they doo sufficiently declare therby howe they haue the Iudgement off one be he neuer so wise
great liberalitie But this aide which the church getteth by encrease off godlie and hable Ministers receiueth litle thanck But the hatred off this cause draue yow headlonge vpon them as your aduertismentes vvhich followe doo declare As there are some among them that fauour this cawse so there are some that like not off it And yet seing they haue ioined togither yea vvhich is verie straunge made great sute vnto the Bishops that they might of there owne charges prouide suche as in seruinge off them might discharge that vvhich the bishop hath charged him selfe with your suspition off spoilinge the church might haue had a fitter lighting place then vpon the Innes off courte Thus muche against your disordered suspition not altogether from my purpose for it shall serue to shew wherupon I conceiued so good hope of them and off other the gentrie off the realme vvhich haue in diuerse places made the same contribution Yf any haue forsaken the ministerie withowt iust cause they are giltie off a horrible fault but I see yow accounte them forsakers off the Ministerie vvhich yow haue thrust owt suche is your equitie to vvhipp them owt and for going owt also And if they hould any off your tenthes and would be counsailed by me they should yelde them into your handes least in beinge partaker off your non residencie they drink also off plages which belonge therto Wher yow saie I haue not answered in deede if your one mā be wise ād godly and the hūdreth fooles and wicked I haue said nothinge nor meane not now to doo being worthier to be hissed owt then to be answered Yow saie that the 16. Actes ▪ sheweth how well Timothy was thowght off a noble interpretation This is allwaies your fashion either to corrupte the places of the scripture or els to tell that which no man dowbteth of But for what cause dothe S. Luke tell that he was so well thowght of dothe he not shew in the nexte ver to be the same which I haue alledged And therfore Master Beza regardinge the meaninge of S. Luke addeth the word therfore declaringe for what cause that testimoniall was giuen This is your reason S. Luke sheweth how well Timothy was thowght off therfore yt is vntrew that S. Paul to cut of all occasion off euill speache receiued him not but vpon commenmendation off the brethren bothe in Listra and Iconium I doe not saie that S. Paul would not haue receiued him vnlesse that euerie singuler person had giuē testimonie vnto him vvhich was in those places but I shewed how circunspecte S. Paul was in takinge any into any part off the ministerie and how it is not to be thowght that he would haue vppon the Testimonie off one proceeded vnto any election seing that in one which he him selfe was not ignorant what he was to auoid the euill speache off some he was carefull to haue the testimonie off the church As it cā not be proued ▪ that he would not haue receiued him if all had not consemed therto so may it easely be shewed that if the most part had not liked of him he would not haue taken him For besides that it was against S. Paules maner to doo any thing off his owne priuate authoritie in the church off God it had not bene aduisedly done to haue procured the testimonie off the church for the admitting off him into his companie if the churche not consentinge he would haue taken him for that would haue bred a great flame off displeasure betwene the church and S. Paul and should haue bene alwaies shot in the mouthe off the aduersaries against the authoritie of Timothes ministerie yea off Paules also vnto whom he was ioyined for that he had receiued one disaproued of the Christians them selues All which he might by your iudgement easely haue auoided iff either he would haue rested in his owne knowledge off him or els haue addressed him selfe to some one for his testimonie ād not to haue hazarded the alienatiō of the church by com̄ittinge the allowāce of Tim. vnto their testimonial But mine argument is nothinge worthe because it is drawen off an acte off the Apostle Yf this be trew S. Luke was euil aduised to in title his booke the act or deedes of the apostles For it is as much in the ans lāguage as a booke of deedes which christiā mē are not boūd to followe ād yet it was not withowt cause that whē there are cōteined in that booke bothe the doctrine and deedes of the Apost S. Lu. as off the greater parte intitled his booke the deedes or actes of the apostles wherfore dothe he in the begin̄ing of that booke repeating the sum̄e of his gospell by that transition or passage make one bodie of them bothe and bind them as it were in one volume was it not to giue the same authoritie vnto the one a◠to the other to shew that the church had wanted so muche of a perfecte directiō as it wanted of that storie Wherfore dothe he in the begin̄inge shew that our Sau. Christ instructed thē with the cōmaundementes thowchinge his kingdome was it not to teache vs that whatsoeuer they did in buildīge of the church they did it not of there owne heades but by his authoritie And if a cōmanndemēt vnto them be not a commaundemēt vnto vs then haue we no word in the Scripture to warrant baptisme with For the commaundement of baptisinge was spoken to the Apostles onely withowt any further lymytation Fynally vvherfore dothe S. Luke set owt the Apostles fylled vvith the holye Goste Was yt onely to gyue credyte vnto there doctryne that yt should be beliued and not vnto there Actes that they should be folowed yes assuredlie vnto there acres that they should of euerie one according to his vocation where they maye be folowed For the further confirmation wheroff yt ys to be consydered what S. Paul vvrote vnto Tymothe Whom he instructynge how he should behaue hym selffe towardes the troublers off the church dothe not onely call him to the regard off his doctrine but also his conduite or maner off doing Wherby he meant to note his order and maner off doyng in the church off God and publykly for yt could be smally otherwise to the purpose off that vvherfore yt ys alledged Sanct Paules pryuate doynges could gyue Tymothy lytle instruction how he should behaue hym selfe towardes the troublers off the Church To the Phillippians also he callethe the Bishoppes Deacons and whole church both to doing off that which they heard and which they had sene in hym Yf therfore S. Paul will haue the churches followe that vvhich he did amongest them yt ys manifest that the Actes off the Apostles are rules for vs to followe And vnlesse this be admitted I would gladly learne off M. D. Where in all the scripture he can proue the imposition of handes which I think he will not denie to be necessarie And this is that vvhich M. Caluin doth flatly
churches interest whiche he dothe so plainly bothe here and els where affirme And where yt is supposed that the churche hathe leue to oppose againste him that is to be elected I haue shewed howe manifeste mockerie yt is off the churche off god As for that whiche is saied off maister Bulling and Maister Caluin iointly that they haue affirmed off the significatiō off the worde as muche as he yt is a manifeste vntrwthe For maister Caluin neuer affirmed that the scripture euer vsed that worde to note the ceremonie off layinge on off handes Off M. Bullinger yt hathe bene before spoken There followeth in this seconde rancke Oecunemius whose testimonie is so flat againste the Ans signification off the word lifting vp off handes and therfore also againste the sole election off the bishoppe as a clearer coulde not be required His words be thes yt is to be noted that the disciples vvithe fastinge and praiers did make elections by voices Nowe seinge by the worde disciples Saint Luke and the Scoliast followinge him continually throwghe the storie of the Actes note the people whiche belieued it is manifeste that the Scoliaste dothe both cōclude vppon this place that the people did chuse and cōcludethe yt also of the worde lifting vp off handes Whether in attributinge the same worde vnto Paule and Barnab he meane therby the ceremonie off imposition off handes I will not as in a thinge not worthe the trauaile stande yt is enowghe for me to haue shewed how this testimonie makethe directly againste that whiche the Doctor affirmeth that is to saie that the worde lifting vpp off handes signifiethe in this place off the Actes onely the ceremonie off layinge on off handes For if it signifie bothe the election by voices and the ceremonie off layinge on off hands then our cawse standeth as sure as if it onely signified the election by voices And to this testimonie off the Scoliaste agreeth the same Ignatius that the Ans in his former boke maketh so greate accompte off who writeth thus yt is meet that yovv as those vvhiche be the church off god should chuse by voices yovvr bishopp Wherby not onely appeareth that that author wil haue the churche chuse her minister but also how this worde is vsed off him in the proper signification to note the election whiche is made by voices Chrysostome remaineth which taking the worde for the imposition off handes doothe not exclude the naturall signification Brentius translating Chrysost had folowed that sense I set downe yf the D. can confute him by the greeke example he is worthy off credite Let vs now see what the Ans hath to say against those reasons wherby I shew that S. Luke by lifting vp off handes ment properly the election by voices I may not saithe he teache the holie goste to speake God forbid I should goe abowte yt But shall not he whiche made the mouthe speake and he whiche teacheth all other to speake properly speake properly him selfe I doo not therfore teache the holy goste to speake whiche applie his words to make them agree withe the thinges they signifie but yowr opinion supposeth wante off knowledge off the tonge in the holy goste whiche woulde haue hym signify layinge downe by liftinge vp And where yow saie I trifle becawse he that laieth on his handes muste firste lifte them vpp or euer he can laie them on who trifleth in this poincte let all iudge For who dothe not vnderstande that the name is vsually giuen off the principall and nearest action wherwithe it is doon and not off those actions whiche are farr off accidentall or for the cause and sake off the principall And yt is all on as if a man should call the takinge off a knife into his hande cuttinge off breade because he that cutteth breade muste before take the knife into his hande How be it if there were the same manner off layinge on off hādes in the primitiue churche whiche is in poperie and withe vs where he that is chosen kneeleth on his knees to receiue the bishopps layinge on off handes yt is so farre from any neede to lifte vp his hand or euer he can laie yt on that onles he carie his handes verie vnmanerly like a paire off hanging sleeues he muste let them downe or euer he can can laie them on the heade off him whiche is chosen Therfore althowghe an other mighte vse this poore shifte yet yow which haue vndertaken to defende whatsoeuer the bishops generallie doo in their elections haue if I shoulde deale hardly with yow loste this aduantage Yt is nothinge with the A. that the 70. interpreters off the ould Testament nor that S Paule and Luke him selffe vtter the layinge on off handes by other words Thes are bare coniectures beinge alledged againste him but ye shall heare by and by where he hathe not halfe suche a reason the greate bell goe with certeinly and manifestly Howbeit althowghe thes seem bare coniectures to him yt muste needes haue weighte with those that haue their senses well acquainted with the holy scripture For they knowe that the writers off the newe testament frame them selues vnto the manner off speache off the oulde when they speake off the same thinges and for the gentils sake whiche had knowledge off the translation of the seuentie interpreters they kepe them so carefully to that that sometimes they vse it althowgh yt be not in euery poincte so iuste ād so answerable vnto the trewthe of the Hebrew as mighte haue beene Which thinge doone off all those especially whiche laboured in the tillage off the gentills amongeste whom S. Luke S. Paules Companion was whosoeuer considereth muste nedes confesse that this coniecture is not so bare as he maketh yt I aske yff any man can reasonably thinke that in one and the same ceremonie commen aswell vnto vs off the Newe Testament as those off the oulde Saint Luke woulde leaue bothe the maner of speache of the Hebrewes and the wordes off the 70 interpreters to take a straunge phrase from the one and diuers wordes from the other or whether he woulde leaue the phrase and wordes which the Iewes and gentils were acquainted withe to vse a phrase whiche the Iewes neuer harde of and a worde whiche was in that signification vnknowen vnto the Gentils off all whiche when there is no one which hath not force to perswade this sentence so the laste is suche that yt leuethe no place vnto any resistance For when the holy goste speaketh with the tonges off men and to their vnderstandinge if by this worde lifting vp off handes he had signified a layinge on of handes he coulde not haue beene vnderstanded seinge that worde was of no suche signification in that tonge And where he saithe I oppose my bare coniectures to improue so many learned mennes iudgements I haue shewed howe he hath ouer toulde I haue no where reasoned againste yow as if yow shoulde affirme that by that worde the laying of on hādes
which can not be nows the reason yow assigne in the fewnes in one place off the professors then and multitude now Althowghe yt be graunted that there are moe nowe in the cities then were then and that be geuen yow too that the multitude owghte to chaunge the forme off elections neither wheroff yow are hable to shewe yet yt still fallethe owte againste yow For allbeit ther be moe professors in a citie then were yt followeth not that there are moe belonginge vnto one assembly then there were thē Wherin I wil goe no further thē to the exāple of the church which yow alledge to haue chosen the deacons vvhere coulde hardly be lesse then sixe thowsande persons seing that at the second sermon of Saincte Peter there beinge fiue thowsande it is affirmed afterward that multitudes off men and weomen were added Now where shall yow haue lightly in the cities vvhich professe the gospell one onely church of so many thowsand persons cōsidering that for the greater cōmoditie of meeting and gouerning the whole masse off Christians in one citie yt is deuided into seuerall churches as it were flockes into seuerall feedinges And if yow vvoulde haue proued any thinge yow shoulde not haue considered howe the nomber off Christians are increased in their cities but howe they are encreased in their churches And so yow shoulde haue founde that by your owne reason the elections in the time off persequution owghte rather to haue bene made by one and the electiōs now by many seinge in persequuted churches for vvāte off the commoditie off diuiding them selues into proportionable assemblies the nomber beinge more the danger off tumulte and confusion muste by yowr owne sayinge be greater Yow saie yt is a verie good reason that because the churche was vnder the crosse therfore yt was few in nomber in comparison but yow answer not the auctoritie which I alledged touchinge the encrease off the children of Israell more vnder the crosse then in prosperitie The reason yow add off many hypocrites in the peace of the churche hath small force For that there are in persequuted churches manie hypocrites maie appeare by the Israelites which dred in persequution made often rebellions in the wildernes likewise by the complaintes off S. Paul that al sought their owne not Christes that al were turned from him That one example onely is hable to ouerthrowe that vvhich yow put so generally yet yowr one example off London is not hable to confirme your pourpose yt serueth yow therfore for a pinche at the citie and for no reason off yowr cawse And albeit the backslyding from the Gospell was throwgh the realme verie horrible in Queene Maries daies yet there is no cause to picke Londō owte as the worste seinge there were great nombers there which vvith hasarde off all they had and of their lyues frequented assemblies vvhere the worde off God was truly preached and the Sacramētes purely administred the like meetinges beinge rarely founde in other places no to our owne shame be yt spokē not in the vniuersitie where of moste righte they should haue beene What gaine yow by that the churche was diminished in Ierusalem seinge the decrease of one churche was the encrease off diuers other wherunto those off Ierusalē adioined them selues Therfore yow conclude not well in sainge that particular churches by persecutions are diminished because one churche off Ierusalem was so no more thē yow can saie that a man hath a vvhite head because he hathe one white heare on his head but I maie rather saie that by persequution the particular churches are encreased for somuche as Samaria and other churches were by that flight of Ierusalem partly adorned with teachers partly augmented in disciples And therby is confirmed that I haue set downe off the merueilous spawne off the churche vnder the crosse bothe becawse euerye one dryuen from Ierusalem was as good seede which browght his hundreth or fiftie folde and for that after Ierusalem was deliuered of that birthe she conceiued againe and browghtforthe as maie appeare a greater nomber then before What are my vvordes vverby I affirme that the churches in time off persecution meete often and kepe together yt is that I precisely denie Verely this is too homelie rhetoricke to affirme I saie that vvhich I manifestly denie And althowghe it be more clearer then the son̄e that a smaller nomber maie better knowe one a nother then a great those which dwell nere one to a nother then that dwell farre of and scattered those vvhich meete oftener then vvhich meete seldomer yet the A. dowbteth not to saie that the contrarie of this is a knowen trwthe Wher he alledgeth for profe the often conference and triall off euery one before they be receiued For the firste yt maie be easelie vnderstanded that seinge yt is daungerous for them to meet together godly politie doothe teache them to breake their companies as soone as they maie conueniently And therfore the publicke action ended off preaching prayinge and receiuing the Sacramentes the conference which may be and is commonly in the churches peace one vvithe another throwghe feare off the daunger vvhich maie come off being seene man it together is cut off As for the knowledge by triall off those vvhich are receiued into the churche if he knewe that yt comethe onely off the reporte off twoo or three which giue testimony off those which are to be receiued and that yt extendeth not to any vnderstanding gyuen to the churche off his giftes either of teaching or gouernment but onely that he is a faithfull man I saie if he knewe thes thinges or knowing thē woulde acknowledge them there shoulde be no cause vppon confidence off that triall to fasten such knowledge one of a nother in a churche persequuted Before I further answer the D. reason touching the change of the manners of the Christians in times off peace from that they were vnder persequution vnderstand good reader that this is the very reason off the archpapist Hosius againste the election off the church which affirmeth that there is greater grauitie and constantie in the Christians vnder persequution and therfore that this manner off election by the bishop was browght in nowe to Hosius and the D. I answer that when wickednes breaketh into open actions then they are no more Hypocrites but openly wicked and suche as owght not onely be taken heed off but without speedy amendement remoued I graunte yt is no shame to the churches to haue Hypocrites for asmuche as the iudgement off man can not discerne them and off them and none other is the parable off tares vvhich forbiddeth weeding vntill the daie off haruest and they are onely those which can not be rooted owte But to saie that beside those which are corrupt in religion yt is full off dronkardes whoremongers c. Yt is more then euer S. Paule reproched any the moste diffigured churches he wrote vnto For how manie suche persones as be founde in
her so manie botches hath she which doo not onely staine her bewtie but put her in hazarde off her liffe And if Sainte Paule for one vnclean person thowght that all the Corinthians had good cause of mourning ryuers off teares in euery mans heade are not sufficient for vs to bewaile the estate vvhich Maister D. telleth vs wee be in which by his saying haue fewe sober fewe chaste c. I leaue to the reader how euill the three places off Sainte Mathew are patched vpp together and how there is neuer a one off them vvhich proueth that he taketh in hande that there be in the churche open offenders which can not be rooted owte I giue vvarning onely to the simple reader that the A. beinge deceiued in interpretation off the parable off the sower doo not also deceiue him For there is nothinge les ment then that where one hearethe the worde profitably three doo the contrarie vvhich is bothe courious and vncomfortable onely he sheweth that off fowre kindes off hearers one onely receiueth fruict but off the nomber off those which heare fruictfully or otherwise not a worde And it maie be for anie thinge our Sauiour Christe setteth downe that in some places that one sorte of men vvhich heare vvith fruict are moe in nomber then all the other three vvhich heare vvithout fruict Yf wee shoulde saie that there is no church vvhere suche faultes be or that for suche faultes we shoulde make a departure from the church thes charges off Anabaptistrie vvhich sounde so often and so full in your mouthâ— mighte haue place But that it is an Anabapâ—isticâ—l cauil to saie that the multitude and swarme off knowen and open faultes argue wante off good gouernment and wholsome discipline in the churche yow are neuer able to shewe nether yowr selfe by argumeÌ„t nor owte of Maister Bull. or any other godly writer Shall there be no ende off this vnfaithful dealing Where in a syllable ys yt saide that the gospell can not be syncerely preached where great corruption off manners dooth appeare yet whilest yow confute this Yow vvoulde make men belieue that vvee affirme yt When I saie there be no knowen drunkardes or vvhoremongers in the churche I speake off that vvhich shoulde be vnto vvhich meaning the tenure off my disputacion would haue led yow if yow had bene willinge to follow For yow opposinge that for a bar vnto the peoples election th effecte off my answer was that yt is not meete to take aduantage off this that there be many suche dronkardes and vvhore mongers seinge they bothe maie and owghte either be browght to repentance and so are none suche as they were or thruste owte of the churche aÌ„d so not hinder the election This my meaning was cleare and the manÌ„er of speache if it had beene simply coÌ„sidered withowt circuÌ„stances restraining to this meaning is such as the scripture doth admit As when Paul saithe that the churchs of God haue no coustome to coÌ„tende he setteth forth not that which alwaies cometh to pas but what owghte to be alwaies For it may be that coÌ„tention may coÌ„tinew in a church many yeres and yet it not cease to be the churche of god The prosperite of the Gospell sheilded by authoritie of the Christian magistrate draweth by no necessitie vvith it suche aboundance of vvicked as yow suppose for althowghe hypocrisie may be more then vnder persequution yet knowen vvickednes of whoredome dronkennes c. may be easilier purged out off the church vnder a Christian magistrate So that the swarme off suche vvickednes vnder the Christian magistate more then vvhen there vvas none is not the faulte off the time but off the gouerners off churche or commen vvealth or bothe As for hypocrites I haue shewed that there is not so great daunger in them consideringe that their owteward doinges are the same vvith the children off God and the difference is onely in the harte Which althowghe yow denie yet my reason drawne of the nature off an hypocrite yow doo quite passe by That vvhich yow call the prosperitie mighte vvell be called the crosse and vvhip of the gospell yf it drewe suche a taile off synne as yow suppose For if vnder a Christian Magistrate either alwaies or for the moste parte not onely the nomber off hypocrites but of barefaced aÌ„d knoweÌ„ wicked shoulde be multiplied and not that onely but the good them selues shoulde wax worse that time mighte peraduenture after a sorte be called the prosperitie of those which professe the gospel but how the gospell maie be saide theÌ„ to prosper which is so manie waies plucked downe I can not vnderstaÌ„d And this is cleane coÌ„trarie to the fruictes of peace which the scripture declareth The Prophet as soone as he had spokeÌ„ of peace vvhich shoulde be published amoÌ„gest the Iewes addeth that Iuda shoulde then kepe her solemne feastes performe her vovves because the vvicked enemie off the churche vvas cut off Wherby he doothe not onely shewe that the ende off the peace of the church is to serue god more wholy then before but also that the peace gaue them more commoditie off seruinge off God then they coulde haue in time of persequution And if yow replie that so it shoulde be but it is not the answer is if it be not so yt is throwghe the greate and vnexcusable faulte off all and gouernoures especiallie vvhich hauinge moe meanes to intertaine all godlines suffer it to goe to vvracke But that peace off it selfe is an aide to godlie increase and confirmacion off the church yt is manifeste by that all the churches in Iurie Galile and Samaria beinge in peace vvere edified and vvalking in the feare off God vvere multiplied Now if they in the time off peace multiplied hauinge no further aide of the magistrate then that he hurte them not vvhat condemnatioÌ„ shall yt be if our churches vvhich haue assistance off the magistrate cannot vpholde them in that feare off God but they muste fall into suche riote as the A. supposeth And if multiplying off open wickednes and decrease of former godlines vvere so generall and so incident to the peace off the gospell as yow pretende there is no cause vvhy vvee shoulde praie so earnestly and often for it nai rather there shoulde be good cause off praying againste it For when it is giueÌ„ vs of God partlie for our ease and especially for the glorie of God in encrease of all vertue the cheife parte vvhich is the glorie off God beinge by yow shutte owte there is no cause vvhy vve shoulde praie for the other Yowr reason of hauinge a better fealinge in the time off persequution then in the peace of the gospell is very insufficieÌ„te especially to that yow vse it vnto off prouinge greater plentithe off knowledge in time off persequution then in peace considering that those wicked which neuer were in persequution nor haue that spirite vvhich is often times sharpened and quickedned by persequution knowe
the parable of the sower in the 13. of Sainct Mathew forsomuch as according to his saying for one in the church which heareth profitablie three doo the contrarie yt muste follow that euen in the persequuted churche there muste be thrise as manie euill as good Onles peraduenture he will saie that our S. Christe spake that off the estate off the church in time off the ciuill magistrate which was spoken off the whole estate off the churche vnto the worldes end and especially to that present churche which was vnder the crosse Ys it trewe vvhich yow heere affirme can yt not be otherwise in the time off persequution but that churche offices muste be chosen by common consent Howe cometh then to passe that yow denie the election Actes 1. and 14. to haue bene made with the consent off the churche How happeneth yt that yow affirme that Timothe and Titus off their owne authorities withowt the consente ether off eldershipp or people appoincted ministers vnto the churches in Ephesus and Creata that in Cyprians times which were times of persequution the electiō vvas made in some places vvithowt the people verily he had need be a verie kun̄ing ioiner which should set the◠together for the impossibilitie which yow imagine yt is not such but that if the commoditie of the churche and the institution off God had so suffred the churches woulde haue submitted them selues and their voices in their elections vnto the order of one And besides that christian humilitie and loue off aduancing the trwth for which they had forsaken all woulde haue let them to that submission there was Ecclesiasticall discipline to driue them vnto it Onles they woulde rather quittethe church which lightnes doothe not agree with the zeale which yow for yowr aduantage ascribe vnto a persequuted church HEere he denieth that he hath saide that the consent off the churche in the choise off the minister can not stand with the time off the Christian magistrate All the reasons vvhich he alledged are to proue that the election vnder a Christian magistrate can nor be safelye and conuenientlie committed vnto the churche and euē here he saith it is in thes times pernicious and hurtfull But that which can not be safely and cōueniently doone owghte not be doone muche les that vvhich is pernicious and hurtfull Therfore if yow thinke as yow speake yow think as I haue saide that the churches election can not stand with the time of A Christian magistrat And your salue wherwith yow woulde plaster yt that the ciuill magistrate maie ordeine so if he liste is nothing worth For if it be daungerous if yt be inconuenient as yow say to committe the election to the churche he owgte not althowge he woulde giue it into her handes Where yow conclude that yt was in powre off the ciuill magistrate to order that matter because the Emperours made lawes off the election which they woulde not haue doone yff yt had bene ordered by the worde off God yow are to farre wyde For wee reade that Aza made a lawe that who soeuer did not seeke the Lord should die And there are lawes made with vs that men shall heare the worde off God and receiue the sacramentes and yet thes thinges are commaunded of God and vnchangable nether is yt at the pleasure off any magistrate to order them otherwise Yf the reasons vvhich Musc bringeth for conformacion off the election off the churche can be answered then I will leaue them and followe his authoritie otherwise I accounte that althowghe he wrastel with it vvith his lefte hand yet he vpholdeth yt with his righte T. C. concealed nothing subtilely in leauing owt that the ministers ovvght to be blameles he lefte owte that which made nothing ether for or againste the pourpose If the A. had considered what I proue owt of this place ether he should haue omitted this or spoken yt againste his consciēce For I propounded onelye that the election off the churche was both in the times of the Christiā magistrate and cōfirmed by them and the D. can not denie but this place proueth that fully whether it be according to the doctrine of the Apostles or no I shewed before Therfore this disputation is with your selfe and with nothing which I set downe And if I had so set it downe whether the decree off the Emperour would haue borne yt owt considering that the sentence which I lefte owghte to be shut in a parenthesis I leaue yt vnto the iudgement of the reader As for the reasons vvhich are vsed for that pourpose the one that he would haue said decre◠and not wee decree is answered before Thother of propounding three owt of which one should be knowen not practised at any tyme by the Apostles is not sufficient to proue that the Emperour did not set before him their example seing that in the principall poinctes and causes off the election amongest which the chusers are the efficient he kepte him selffe vnto the election of the Apostles Yea if it be well considered yt shall be easely perceiued that he stucke too curiously and precisely vnto the election Actes 1. whilest as there were two sett vp of which one should be taken so in a grater multitude he would haue three out of which he would drawe one And althowgh the imitacion of the doctrine off the Apostles were onely as yow would haue yt that the moste pure should be taken yet yow can not denie but the Emperour tooke this to be the best way to haue most incorrupt ministers that the election should be made by the inhabitantes off the citie Howbeit because I propounded onely to proue that elections by the church haue bene confirmed by Emperours I will not striue with him in this point because I will stop vp the holes as muche as may be wherat he breaketh owt alwaies from that which is in question Yt were an euill interpretation to expound the inhabitantes off the cytie the cheife off the citie especially considering that the decree of other Emperours vvhich followed ordeined that the minister should be chosen by all the people And considering that the Nouelles in latin are corrupte in many places yt is vnreasonable to expound the Code and other lawes by them especially with such open violence And yt may be that the translator in steed off the heades of families put the heades off the citie but for this also I will not striue What ether against my cause or for yowres conclude yow off that the Metropolitan ordeined one off the three which were chosen after that sort Likewise what gaine yow if which is vntrue or very doutefull as that which hath autoritie off bothe sides a man should accord yow that Charles the great was Emperour of the French and not off the Duch Thes are nothing but baites to draw from the cause which yow would so faine shifte yowr handes of The shelter also yow seke in those wordes according to the canons off that
trifling questions here albeit moste vnworthy yet are answered almoste all before And if there were a legion moe they are not onely confuted in that this manner off election by the churche confirmed by the magistrate hath bene vsed more then â—00 yeares together but also by the D. owne wordes wherby he leaueth yt in the princes pleasure so to order yt still For if there were such incoÌ„ueniences and absurdities as he imagineth how hath the practise continued so longe bene thowght good by so many good Emperours and so many learned men in all those ages Or if all they were a sleap or of so shorte sighte that they could not see thes inconueniences which the D. hath espied how commeth yt to passe that he leaueth yt in the magistrates pleasure to establishe this order encombred with suche inconueniences and absurdities For the chalenges wherby he would giue to vnderstand that I haue not faithfully alledged Musculus the firste is that I affirme that he vvente aboute to defend the election vsed vvhere he vvas by this that it approched to the election of the primatiue church which he saith is vntrue But the reason wherwith I confirme yt that Muscu saithe yt vavs made not by one minister but by al by the voices of the Senate vvhere some nomber off the people vvere He toucheth not The second that I call the choise off the minister by the churche the Apostolicall forme yet they are not my wordes but Musculus his authors vvhich calleth yt the oulde the fytteste the deuine the Apostolicall and lavvfull election Where he saith that Musculus dooth not call the other elections forced I woulde gladly knowe what difference there is betwene forced and thruste vpon For Musculus in the same tytle maketh all one a mynister thruste vppon the church and a minister which is not chosen off the church in thes wordes The forme off election vsed in the Apostles times is conformable to the libertie and priuiledge off the church vvherof Cyprian made mention and that forme off choise vvherby men began to be thrust vppon the people off Christe being not chosen off yt dooth agree to a church vvhich is not free but subiecte to bondage Hetherto yt hathe appeared that although Musc Iudgement be not wholy for vs yet the reasons vvhich he alleadgeth for this cause are suche as can not be shaken Now I will further shew that as there is some disagreement betwene ours and his Iudgement so there is further distance betwene hym and the D. First therfore he saithe that as the election by the church endured vntill the time off Christian magistrates so the election made by the church and confirmed by the christian magistrate endured vntill that time that the bishoppe off Rome hauinge wronge owte both from the Emperour and the people their right in the election tooke it all to him selfe The D. denieth this stoutly Secondarily Musculus maketh the disorders off electioÌ„s by chusinge vnmeete persons or by corruption throwghe giftes or parciall fauour to beginne then especially when the election taken from the people cam into the bishoppe of Rome and his suffragans handes The D. cleane contrary that thes disorders were especially in the elections by the people and beste auoided when the election is called to the will and becke off one bishoppe Thirdly Musc maketh yt an vnlawfull forme off election when yt is made of the prince but maister D. saith that yt is in the princes powre to make election off ministers him selfe if he will or committe yt to others iff he liste Fourthly Musc helpinge him selfe off the authoritie off Ierome saith that there was no election in poperie becawse they were made without the knowledge off the people and condemneth also the election of the bishopes made by the Canons for the same cause But M. D. saith yt is a moste conuenient and sufficient election which notwithstandinge in that poincte is all one with the election in poperie Last off all wherin lieth a great weight of this controuersie he dooth not saie simply that this forme off choise by the church is vnmeete and inconuenient for this age off he churche but that it coulde not be by and by and out of hand restored and after a litle that it could not be in al churches by and by restored Wherby he gyuethe to vnderstand that in some places yt might be forthwith restored and in other all men owght endeuour to bringe yt in againe withall coÌ„uenient speed So appeareth that although Musculus be pretended yet Pigghius and Hosius be his storers Here cometh to shewe the manner off the election off the Tigurine churche wheron the D. heareth hym selfe so much vvhich as Bullinger whom he cyteth for his author reporteth is this After he had shewed that in all lawfull ministeries off the worde there is required that with innocencie of life he shoulde be learned then chosen accordinge to the worde off God thirdly after he is chosen and presented to the church haue imposition of handes he addeth Heruppon the Tigurine church hauinge taken her leaue off the inordinate ordination off the popishe bishoppe chuseth off the learned and off the ministers off the Senators and off the councell off the 220. that is to saie off the common people vvhich out off the learnedest and honestest deacons should present certeine that are to bee made Bishoppes vnto the Senate and people Off vvhich vvhen the Senate and people haue chosen one they sende him vnto the church ouer vvhich he is set and vvith him a counseiller vvhich doth commend him vnto his church Then the cheifest off the bishoppes off that citie or other place vvhere this nevve bishop muste be maketh a Sermon and in publike praier made off the church in this behalfe layinge on his handes commendeth the church vnto him Wherin howe many thinges are fauouringe our cause and openly fighting against the D. vppon that I haue before noted of the election of the churches of Berne I leaue to be considered ALthowghe the D. as his vse is speaketh off one thinge so often and that in the same diuision and with spaces put betwene so that yt is harde to giue answer with any conuenient vnderstandinge off the reader yet I will as well as I can referre his scattered sayinges to certeine heades Wheroff the firste is that he did not meane to proue by thes places off Timothe and Titus that the election belonged vnto one man Wheruppon he chargeth me with willfull deprauinge off his answer Yt muste be therfore considered if we maie holde this wett eele by the mouthe The Adm. saithe in the primitiue church no minister vvas placed in the congregation but by consente off the people but novve that authoritie is giuen to the bishoppes handes alone the D. answereth by the place off Timothe and Titus Now this beinge a commaundement and by his iudgement both directed onely to Tim. and Tit. and to them as bishoppes yt followeth
chusing such a one as was an Arian a runnigate from his former bishoppricke a railer of the Emperour yet he confesseth still that yt belonged vnto them to make a hewe election Fourthly what will he say to that that the people bridled the rage of the scribes and pharises againste the truth and ministers theroff in that they were a fraide off them that the Bishop off the church being an Arrian the people haue bene for the most parte Catholike That also the Emperour hath displaced the catholike bishop chosen by the church ād placed an Arian Which disorders beinge often cōmitted by the Bishops maie by the D. rule as well depriue them of their intereste in ordering and confirming as the people in chosing What also that the euill disposition off the people hath for the moste parte proceded off the mouing off their euill gouernours So that people diuers times good when the rulers were naughte hath bene seldome naughte whē their gouernours were good besides all this there are other faultes off Symonie off choise off moste dissolute and most vnlearned ministers wherwith the sole election off the bishops is so infamous and the churches election scarsly to be touched with that many contentions off the people woulde drawe les blould off the churche then the choise onely off one suche blinde and lame minister as many off the assemblies off the bishoppes for that purpose sende forthe by whole armies Laste all as in other reasons before I haue shewed that the D. defendinge the same cause which the Papistes vseth the very selfe same armour bournished by the names off Zuinglius Caluin Beza c. so here he hath the very selfe same reason which the Papistes vsed for the bishoppes sole election wherunto Caluin maketh answer For vnto the Papistes sayinge that the people were shut forthe because off the contentions and tumultes which happened often times he answereth confessing there were such motions and sturres but that the taking awaie off the churches electiō was browght in for a remedy against those sturres he affirmeth to be a plaine lie and sheweth that there were other waies to meete with those disorders as to punishe them which should moue any tumult And so goeth forward in shewinge the trewe cawse off the falling awaie off this libertie from the churche To all the reste off his reasons I haue answered before at large sauinge that he hath embossed owte this laste with a sentence off Chrysostome vpon Iohn drawen from Hosius who vseth this testimonie againste the election of the churche Where both Hosius and the Ans shoulde haue learned to haue put a difference betwene a confused multitude and the church off god For I woulde aske off Hosius howe shamles so euer he be whether he dare define the church off God which is the spouse and body off Christe to be a certeine thinge full off tumulte and sturres consistinge ad rashly compacted for the moste parte of folie c. and yet ether the answer is not afraied to saie that this is the difinition that is to saie the very nature and vnchangeable propertie of the church off God or els if he vnderstand yt of some other companie he hath saide nothinge againste the election off the church And verely I can not see howe he coulde speake more vilely of the moste disordred rowte off moste godles people then he semeth to doo off that assemblie vvhich beinge indewed with the wisdome of the moste higheste he calleth a thing consistinge off folies and which beinge the piller off trewth he lykeneth vnto waues off the sea By which symilitude the scripture setteth forthe the estate of the reprobate or at leaste off the wicked vvhich haue as yet no societie with our Sauiour Therfore to conclude seinge that the election off the churche in her ministers hath grounde owt off the worde off God both in commaundement and continuall practise both in the olde Testamente and in the newe consydering also it hath allowance off commen reason the approbacion off all times after the Apostles as longe as ther was any sinceritie in peace and perquution both by councells and Emperours decrees both by godly writers ancient and off our time and considering he hath not so much as browghte an example to the contrarie owte off any auror and if he coulde yet the same is condemned not onely by the worde off god but by continuall good harmonie off councells one in the necke of another diuers 100 yeares and forasmuch as the Ans hathe this question of election by the bishope onely commen with the Papistes and hathe had both sworde and buckler ministred him owte off the moste grosseste Papistes I conclude that both the church owghte to haue her consente in the election off her ministers and that the sole autoritie off bishops creating ministers is vnlawfull Vnto this question off election and ordination belongeth the 2. chapter of the 4. tract of ceremonies in ordeining off which the 2. Diuision beinge answered and the first and third vnworthy of answer there remaineth onely the fowrth Againste that he alledgeth that the bishop mighte as well say receiue the holy goste to the ministers made by him as to vse the wordes off the Lordes supper I replied that there was a commaundement for the one and not for the other wherunto he saith that there is no speciall commaundement Which is no answer For if the generall commaundement off kepinge that whole institution doo comprehende this beinge aparte theroff then the argument standeth That he bringeth off the minister sayinge withowt inconuenience This is my bodie and in recitall off the commaundementes thow shalte haue no other god but me is nothing worthe seinge the inconuenience is taken away by preface off God spake thes vvordes Christe tooke bread c. The place of Timothe vvith Maister Caluins expositiō is vtterly impertinent For it is not question whether God doth gyue his giftes to them which he calleth or no but vvhether he giueth them by this means of sayinge receiue c. where he saith that the Apostels when they laide on their hands likely vsed thes wordes it is vntrwe considering that Saincte Luke pursuing the leste of those ceremonies which were vsed made no mencion off it being in the D. iudgement worthiest off all other to be followed And if they had vsed yt yet yt folowed not that the bishops maie doo it considering that it was proper onely to the Apostles to giue the giftes off the holy goste by layinge on off handes Where he saith that Christe commaundinge the sea to be quiet and breathing vppon his disciples confirmed his diuinitie I answer that he did the same in commaunding to receiue the holy goste which otherwise he woulde haue praied for as at other times when he gaue testimonie off his humanitie Caluin althowgh he vse not the same example yet vseth the like when he compareth the imitation off thes wordes receiue the holy goste with those being saide
and no Euangeliste But what then if they were for one a 100. they can not counteruaile much lesse beare downe the testimonie of the Apostle Howbeit not all the auncient writers are as he vntruly saith of that iudgemēt For not to speake of Ambrose which calleth Timot. a Deacon where he opposeth a Deacon to a bishop Ignatius an auncient writer saith that he was a Deacon and that where he deuiding the ministeries off the church into Bishopes and Deacons c. doth openly oppose a Deacon to a bishop Where all his testimonies are not able to aford one sentence wherein Timothè is so called a Bishop that he is opposed vnto an Euangelist Therfore althowghe thes places proue him nor an Euangelist yet they haue more to proue that he was no bishop that all those to proue him a bishop which are raked here together Albeit Ignatius missing the proper name assigneth him the true office off an Euangelist which was to be assistant to Saint Paul in his Apostelship Where he saith that all the new writers are off that minde that he was a bishop Maister Beza onely excepted I trust the Doctors faith in alledging autorities ys too well knowen to abuse the simplest any more with these visardes I onely had Calu. and Muscul at hand the reader may looke others yf he thinke good both which plainely say he was an Euangelist where they handle properly the seuerall ministries off the church and make a manifest difference betwene a bishop and an Euangelist And such is his dealing that he feareth not to bring euen from thence a peece of proofe where Calu. mouing the question whether the word Euangelist verified off Timoth. be taken in a generall sense for any that preacheth the word or for that proper office which S. Paul expresseth to the Ephes vppon two reasons concludeth that he speaketh off that office off an Euangelist Yet vppon that he saith Timothe vvas excellenter then common Pastors this trimme interpreter concludeth directly against Caluin that he had the proper office off a Bishop and that Caluin ment that he had a notable gift aboue the rest off the Pastors As though Caluin reasoned not off the degree off offices one aboue an other but off the degree of giftes in one and the same Yt is too great shame to striue with suche light of wordes Considering that he dothe there make Timothes office a middle degree betvveen Pastors and Apostels higher then Pastors lower then Apostles This man also which reprocheth me as one setting the fathers together by the eares without cawse where the disagreemēt is manifest and which saith symply that yt is great iniurie to learned men to accuse them off contrarietie with themselues goeth about to proue Beza directly contrary vnto him selff For where Beza sheweth that Saint Paul did not leue Tim. at Ephesus as their bishop which the D. in affirming that Beza is against him cōfesseth he busieth him self to proue him to haue contrary sentences For proof hereoff he alledgeth that all were bishops which S. Paul sent for from Ephesus to Miletum and therefore Timothe being one off those which by Bezaes iudgement was sent for must needes be a Bishop Albeit it he graunted which Beza saith that Tim. was sent for yet that they were all bishops wanted proof For all know that it is not vnwonted to call a whole companie gathered off diuers degrees by the title off that whereoff there are muste in the companie without speaking to euery one by their particular titles especially seing he speaketh indefinitely that the holy gost had appointed them and not all them Bishops Where Saint Luke saith that both the princes off the people Elders and Scribes and those of the race off the highe pristes were assembled Peter in speaking vnto them maketh mention onely off the Princes and Elders without naming the scribes and priestes which notwithstanding he spake vnto with the rest But I can hardly graunt that Timothe was then sent for to come with the rest off the Ministers vnto Miletum considering that there was as appeareth so small a space at the least betwene the time which Beza supposeth Timoth. to haue bene sent to Ephesus from S. Paul and this sending for the bishops vnto Miletum that Timo. taking the streight course vnto Ephesus was litle more then onely arriued when Saint Paul sent from Miletum Secondly for that S. Paul writeth vnto Timothe that he left Trophimus one off his companions in that iourney sicke at Miletum which had bene nedeles yf Timothe had bene with Paul as the bishops off Ephesus were vntill he parted from Miletum Thirdly for that S. Paul in that oration vnto the bishops saith that he knew that none off them should see his face any more which he would neuer haue saide off Tim. His other reason that he calleth him president a generall word agreing to any in preeminence is nothing worth That which he ioineth to backe yt with as added by Beza out off Cypri that the Bishop ruled the colledge off Seniors the place is in his confessions and not where he assigneth howbeit yt maketh nothing to the pourpose For althowgh the Bishops were presidentes in the Eldership in Cyprians time when that office was the highest in the churche yet yt followeth not therefore that the bishops were alwayes the first in the Apostels times when there were higher functions Onles the D. will say that the bishops toke the vpper hand off the Apostels and Prophetes when they came vnto their churches and ioyned them selues vnto their consultations And albeit yt hath appeared and shall appeare that the Answ hath not wun so much as a poore cottage yet as though he had taken great Babylon or Niniue he maketh his Triumphes which yf he had had any hould off him self at least he might haue differred vntill he had answered the reasons to the contrary For yf as he moste vntruly saith he had all the writers calling Timothe bishop yet yf the scripture stand for vs yt ys reason that he with all his writers should vaile their bonnet Nowe therefore although he say I forget my promis of prouing Timothe an Euangelist yet the reason I alledged that the scripture so calleth him will proue better memorie in this point then he can well aford To this reason he answereth first that the scripture doth not call him so but onely biddeth him doo the worcke of an Euang. which in deed is more against him For they are sometimes called by a title which not doing the worck belonging thereunto can not be properly so called but they which doo the worcke which the title pretendeth may alwaies properly be called by yt And the vsuallest argumentes in scripture to proue or improue a man to be such as he beareth countenance off are fetched from this place off effectes His second answer standeth off the interpetation off these wordes the vvorcke off an Euangelist Which being alledged
the speciall function off a Pastor The same may be saide off Beza which calleth S. Paul a Bishop with diuers other wherin writers speaking off one in passing and not off pourpose content them selues with those generall titles which notwithstanding when they inquired into the natures off them as we doo here spake otherwise which vse is also noted off Cicero And to shut vp this matter it is to be vnderstanded that there be diuers significations off thes wordes Apostles Propheres Doctors c. for in generall signification they agree vnto all ministers off the word Considering that all are sent all feed teach and by a trope are saide to prophecie Their other signification which S. Paul setteth forth is particular and agreeth onely to onely to one seuerall ministrie Obserue then how the D. hath trifled when as a part off our question being whether there be now Apostels Prophetes and Euangelistes in particular significatiō and as they differ aswell one from an other as from Pastors and Doctors he hath brought certein places where thes names be taken generally and as euery off them may be verified off all mynistries off the word as yf vpon that the Maior off the citie is called sometimes the officer sometimes the Magistrate he should conclude that he hathe three seuerall offices And where an other part off our question being whether these functions are now ordinary or extraordinary perpetuall or for some ruinous time he hath taken vpon him to proue them ordinary and perpetuall he hath alledged testimonies which confessing that some off thes ministeries haue bene found in our daies ad partly in expres wordes partly in wordes and circumstances of like valew that they were extraordinary that they are but for a time then which what can be greater mockery off his reader And so I trust yt appeareth aswell vpon the argumentes I haue vsed as vpon the shame off the D. answers that off all the mynisteries of the word reckened of S Paul there remaine onely Doctor and Pastor and that the function off Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes haue no place in the church onles the lord immediatly styr them vp withowt the ordinary calling by men Off the necessarie residence of the Pastor 4. Tractat. 5. according to the D. Cap. 1. Diuis 1. pag. 235. THe D. to deliuer the Non residents from the crime he ys charged with flieth from the iudgement off the word off God vnto his owne conscience so that yf he and his conscience although astonished or blindled can agree off some easier way thē is debated all mouthes are shut vp to speake against him And pa. 238. he saith that preaching and priuate exhortations must be according to the conscience and discretion off the Pastor which is too shamefull a saying In stead wheroff if he had put a good conscience which will admit no persuasion but out off the word off God he had openly begged that in question The lord knew too well the vnreformed corners and false doores of the best cōscicēces to cōmit his church which he loued so dearly vnto their courteousie When Saint Paul cōfesseth that he was not as towching his ministrie iustified albeit his conscience cast him not in the teeth of any thing he had doon he declareth that the conscience is no sufficent rule to direct the minister in his charge ▪ Yet his was more Chryst allike then is to be hoped after off any now and when he saith that all the worckes off a good minister are taught out off the scripture inspired off God he incloseth the Pastor within streighter boundes then the Answ which leaueth him in the large field or wildernes rather sometime off his conscience sometime of the peoples pleasure That which he bringeth off the examples off the Apostels and Euangelistes is absurd considering that both the callinges are diuers and euen in the very point whereoff the question is towching the place yt is confessed of him that the Pastor hath one certein appointed him to exercise his charge which the other haue not Off this sorte is that he alledgeth after off sonas the Prophet whose mynistery was altogether extraordinary towardes the Nineuites Whiche yf yt proue any thinge yt proueth that the pastor after he hathe once laide open the synnes off his flocke and denounced the iudgement against them may goe his waies withowt ether deputy or returne Likewise that off S. Paul Act 20. free from the Ephes bloud becawse he had declared them the whole counsail off God. Which is first impertinent considering that the pastors teaching at his charge is not to be compared with the Apostels teaching at one church but at all the churches of his Apostelship Then yt ys apparantly againste him considering that the Apostle which cleareth him selfe off their bloude doth nowithstanding all the knowledge they had charge the pastors with watche and warde ouer them as those which should answer for them So that onles S. Paules diligence had bene poursued in feeding them which were alredy so well fed not the people onely but the pastors also should haue perished And euen the extraordinary callinges are so far from strenghthening thes startinges a side from appointed charges that they help to binde them more streitly to them ▪ for they had not onely a generall calling to execute their function but withall speciall direction vnto the persons and places vnto which the Lord would haue their ministrie to apperteine for when those off Nazareth thought muche that our Sau. Christ healed in other cyties off Galile and not in theirs where he was brought vp he alledgeth the calling off God which sent him to doo miracles in other places rather then there and sheweth the cawse why Elias rather relieued the extreme famin and Elizeus cured the leprosie of straungers then of their owne countrey for that they were sent vnto them Also desired to tary in a place he saide it was not at his libertie to tary but that he muste preach to other cyties alledging this reason that he was sent off his father so to doo Considering therefore that they had not onely generall callinges to doo their duties but also where and to whom muche more in the callinges which are ordinary and certein it owght to be obserued that men haue not onely callinges to preach but direction vnto the place and parties to whom they should preach Which because yt is not now without calling of the church yt followeth there can be none such That he addeth if he haue care off them is altogether from the cawse considering that the pastors care is but one part of his duty and may be taken off one neuer present Likewise that of his sufficient deputy beside that yt cometh after to be spoken of if the absence he phansieth be vnlawfull the deputy for yt ys idly mentioned I alledged that the Euangelistes and Apostles taried more in one place then in an other Which may be easely vnderstanded
not to seek corners in the diuers interpretation off the place when as that off the Actes doth in plaine and confessed speach vtter the same that is here debated off After he addeth howsoeuer the place be expounded yet it maketh not against him No if S. Peter and Paul crye neuer so highe in this language of continuall residence yet the D. is deaf and will not heare Yf both the Apostles doo not only commaund the Pastors to feed in their proper flockes not onely that they must employ their talentes but vvhere yt ys manifest that they shut owt that rouing abroad vnto other churches vvhich is pretended for Non residence I shewed how the argument is good taken from the place off the Thessal that for so much as S. Paul conceiued a great greif in being absent a small space from those to whom he was not so streitly bound as the Pastor to his flock the Pastor owght muche more to be greiued to be away from his flock And consequently thereoff must follow that if their absence sat so neer their hartes as yt owght yt would hang such plummets off their heales as should hinder them from those lightfooted leapes which he mainteineth I added also that the Pastor hauing the same dutie vnto his proper church vvhich the Apostles had tovvardes all the churches of their charge yt must follovv that as they vvere continually in their ministery tovvardes some off those churches so the Pastor should be continuall vppon the charge off his church That he bringeth against this that the Apostle did not speake this in any duty off mynistery for that a learned man noteth off that place how the sainctes desire to see one an other bodely is ridiculous as if his desire to see them could not stand with the duty off the his mynistery In the two next diuis vnto the reasons alledged off the Pastors care so much more stirred vp as he seeth the blessing of God vpon his labour and of familiar acquaintaÌ„ce needfull in a Pastor tovvardes his flock to embolden them to come vnto him both vvhich are best procured by continuall residence he answereth nothing where I alledged the singular loue by this meanes vvrought betvvene the Pastor and the flock he asketh me how I know it seing I had neuer experience in any I know yt of the cawses off loue whereoff the daily conuersation and delight to be together is one off the principall off naturall reason which I cyted owt off Aristotle that teacheth how men haue greater care ouer thinges proper vnto them then ouer those that are commen to them with moe And hauing greater care yt followweth they haue greater loue from whence the care proceedeth Likewise I know yt by experience in the Apostle S. Paul which vttereth greater affections off loue towardes the Corinth and Philip. and other with whom heremaineed longest and suffred moste for then towardes the other churches where he made not that abode nor tooke so great paines He asketh what Aristotle had to doo with non residence if yt had bene but Balams asse he should haue bene schoolemaster fit enough for some which refuse to be taught by the vvord off god But this is one off M. D. oracled which he saith owght to be belieued considering that speaking off the naturall causes off preseruation of thinges for which I alledged him he spake of thinges perteining to his profession That he chargeth me with not reporting Aristot vvordes truly is a wrangling cauill for I kept the sense off the autor considering that a thing commen to many requireth the care off many That he saith it can not be true that it is neglected off all which is cared for off all is to childish considering the flower off speach so often vsed off all writers both prophane and holy as they liuing are dead hauing nothing possesse all thinges he that is euery where is no where Nether is care taken in lesse measure then yt owght to be which I speake off contrary to neglect as he supposeth but a kinde off neglect That he addeth a man owght not so take care off hit priuate thinges as to neglect the commen wealth is froÌ„ the pourpose seing the pastor in his charge ouer his flock serueth not him self but the commen profit and that off the whole church forasmuch as it perteineth to the commoditie off the vvhole body that the part which he hath the nourishement off be well preserued beside that I haue shewed how the care for other churches may be with a continuall residence at his owne In the next diui skowring ouer againe the remouing of Apostles and EuaÌ„gelistes from place to place which is answered he addeth that the Pastors did the same which is vtterly vntrue that a man may be transferred from one place to an other which is no part of the question that those which haue gyuen their names to the gospell are sufficiently armed with faith although the Pastor be not present which is absurd when the armour off faith with the rest off the complete harnesse off o Christian which he speaketh off in the next diuis is not so put vpoÌ„ but that it is daily to be put on and that by the preaching off the gospell especially He saith further that although they be tempted yet they can not be ouercome which is confuted not â—nely by diuers examples of moste excellent sainctes Noe Dauid Peter c. but by whole churches off Galatia c. which haue bene caried away by false teachers For if he speake off the finall victory yt is absurd consydering that that dependeth off the election off God vnknowen vnto him and may be aswell saied off the elect which haue not yet belieued Likewise that it is a more acceptable worck to gaine those which are altogether in ignorance vvherein beside that he taketh vppon him to be a planter off churches which before he assigned to be proper to the Apostles I answer that albeit it be neuer so good a worck in yt self yet it is not good much lesse the best vnto him which hath no calling therunto And in that he presumeth a calling he doth but beg that in controuersy which is also before refuted That he alledgeth off the loste groat â–ª Prodigall sonne c. maketh against him considering that those places are not off straungers from the church but off them vvhich after knowledge off the truth fall into some corruption of life or doctrine as appeareth in the parable of the stray sheep which although it be of the same kinde with thother two he hath by all likelihood left owt because it did more plainely shew his folie In this respect also S. Iames saieth that a man that gaineth his brother straied from the truth sâ—ueth a sowle He saieth his brother not his neighbowr Therefore this moste excellent worck off conuerting sinners and finding off those which are lost being alwaies in the purest churches through the ambicion
couetousnes idlenes licentiousnes c. off one or other it followeth that the pastor hauing exercise of the moste excellent worck which can be in his owne church owght not by the D. owne reason cast him self vppon others All in the two next diuis is answered nether conteine they any answer proper vnto the reasons alledged off me He answereth that the similitude off the eie and sowle in the body coÌ„pared with the Pastor in his church agreing in some pointes can not be applied to the residence becawse the Pastor may be absent from his flock withowt present destruction which the eie and sowle can not Yf this be a sufficient exception there be few similitudes in the scripture which are able to hould owt and he might aswell say that as the eye waxeth worse and worse through age so the Pastor may wâ—r euery day more foole then other Howbeit this is clear that forsomuche as the Pastor doth the office off an eye and off the sowle vnto his church his absence from it ought to be such as the body off the church may nether see the worse nor be les disposed and liuely vnto all good worckes which is enowgh to break the neck both off his monethly much more quarterly sermons and off his reading deputies Hetherto perteineth which the D. intitleth the moste effectuall kinde off preaching where he would if he durst expound diligent preaching preaching once a moneth to vvhich end he stowreth vp a freshe the difference betwene spirituall food and corporall before answered But because he dare not take vpon him this defense and the rest of the treatise hath nothing but a childishe excuse off his reproches against the Ministers of London an impudent deniall off his Lewdenes towardes the weomen an intollerable bragg off his benefites and off his preaching often owt courses against me all beside the cawse I will leaue them in the readers iudgement In the next Tract off the great conuenience off preaching before administration off the Sacramentes falling also into this treatise as that which pulleth at the least one of those feathers wherewith non residentes so willingly take their flight from their owne charges there should haue bene almoste as title to answere as in the other if the D. had not vsed such open false accusations as he may thereby seem to haue striuen for the mastrie thereoff with the father off them And first to let pas his correction off thorder off my reasoning whereby he maketh him selff more then ridiculous to all which haue a graine off knowledge that waies to that he saith that Iohn as minister preached in the wildernes and baptised in Iordan and therupon will conclude that if preaaching before the Sacramentes now haue grownd in Iohnes example preaching in the wildernes and baptizing in riuers haue the same I answer that the case is nothing like For his preaching in the wildernes was by speciall vocation wherunto he was directed by an expresse propheceye This instance therefore is vnfitly alledged which albeit it were incident to his ministerie yet that was by extraordinary calling The baptizing in Iordan was for that he sought the commoditie off water as appeareth by other places where he likewise baptized not as the D. pretendeth for that his mynisterie called him more to that place then vnto an other Yt is also vntrue that the Apostles in that they were ministers of the word preached in all places and wrought miracles For then all ministers off the word should doo the same Considering that as whatsoeuer agreeth vnto one man as he is man agreeth vnto all euen so whatsoeuer agreeth vnto one minister off the word as he is minister theroff must needes be verified off all The reason wheroff is more knowen then that the D. withowt blusshing owght thus to be ignorant off that vvhatsoeuer is verefyed off a generall as generall is verefyed off all vnderneth yt Therefore that the Apostels preached the word they did it in that they were ministers off the word but that they preached in all places and ioyned therewith miracles they did it not as ministers off the word but as such ministers that is to say extraordinary and Apostles Where he saithe there is an other reason off preaching before Iohns baptisme then before ours for that Iohn had to doo with those that belieued not in Christ whhich he calleth a litle after infidels and we haue to baptise infantes onely to passe by his ignorance off calling the Iewes at that time infidels the onely people off God euen before Iohns baptisme which notwithstanding deserueth the whip he owght to vnderstand that albeit the baptisme be administred vnto infantes which haue no vse off preaching yet forsomuch as the knowledge off that mynistery necessarily perteineth to the whole assembly and particularly to those which vndertake the bringing vp off the infantes â–ª the necessitie off preaching before the Sacrament doth remaine He saith that it can not be gathered off S. Math. that S. Iohn preached immediatly before he baptized aÌ„d yet the first reason I alledged that he baptized after he had preached he cleane passeth by the other off the Actes he vnderstandeth not how it can be gathered Although the interpretation I noted was not commenly knowen as that which towched off some fewe was not seen of diuers writers off name yet when I pointed him to it I supposed he would haue vnderstanded But I presumed the â—â—che off his vnderstanding and yet not knowing what I would note he condemneth the sense I haue followed as tending to Anabaptistry or Papistrie or I know not what S. Paul meaning to refer the giftes off the holy ghost which the twelue disciples at Ephesus were to receiue by putting on off handes vnto the performance off the truth off the promise figured by baptisme and so to ioyne the signe with the thing signified in the fourth verse sheweth how Iohn preached that his disciples should belieue in Iesus Christ vvhich came after him After in the 9. vers he sheweth that those disciples off Iohn and not as is commenly supposed those twelue disciples off Ephesus hauing heard Iohns preaching and not as is also supposed Paules vvere baptized into the name off the lord Iesus Which interpretation as yt floweth and hath plaine proofe off the twoo coniunctions which haue relation one to an other and can not without violence be seuered so off all other yt moste stoppeth the mouth off the Anabaptistes and Papistes taking all coulor off Argument from them and withall noteth the order I alledged yt for that after they had heard Iohn preach they vvere baptized Where it being most boldly affirmed off the D. that it is manifest that our Sauiour Christ was baptized without preaching he owght to haue shewed yt by manifest reasons he not onely set downe no reason but agaynst the reasons I alledged opposeth his naked saying For that that S. Luke hath not that
S. Iohn preached immediatly before he baptized is vnworthy off answer as if the order off the storie could not shew that withowt the word immediatly or as if nothing might be saide doon immediatly after an other but where some such precise note off time is added That he saith he knoweth no pourpose why our Sauiour Christ should be at Iohns sermon yt was answered that he vouchesafing to be baptized off Iohn yt was probable that he vvould honour the ministery off the word with his presence which he passeth with silēce beside that he must learne that our Sauiour Christ growing in wisdome and stature vntill the time off his baptisme when he receiued the holy ghost withowt measure no more neglected the ordinary meanes off God vvhereby he receiued his increase off wisdome then the ordinary nourishement whereby he grew in stature That the disciples were preached vnto of the vse of the supper before they receiued the reason followeth in the 6. diuis That S. Luke noted the sommes rather then laied owt at large the sermons of our Sa. Christ howsoeuer the D. will not acknowledge yt is more manifest then his impudent deniall owght to cawse me enter into profe off To the next reason of continuall practise of preaching immediatly before the Sacramentes proued owt of S. Luke his answer is insufficiēt For beside that it is vntrue that the assemblie infantes excepted are sufficiently instructed off the vse off baptisme his answer off preaching immediatly before the sacramentes to those that are not conuerted hath no place considering that S. Paul preached to those in the administration off the supper which were already conuerted Where I confesse that nether the Adm. nor I hould for a thing simply necessary that the word be preached immediatly before the Sacramentes he saith that there is then no cause to contend yt being agreed off the conuenience Yf it be very conuenient that preaching be immediatly before the Sacramentes then the coustome off reading onely is not sufficient which is that he found fault with in the Adm. for at the least a great conuenience is wanting to that sufficiency And seing the scripture commendeth thinges conuenient as it forbiddeth the contrary the order of preaching immediatly before the Sacramentes euen in this respect owght onles yt be rare and vppon great causes to be obserued Where I say the life off the sacramentes dependeth vppon the the vvord preached the D. saith yt is a fowle error no meruaile according to his black diuinitie But how cometh it so fowle because the life off the Sacramentes dependeth vpon the promisses in the word I graunt and nether vpon preaching nor reading that is vtterly false for when baptisme belongeth not vnto infantes but in that their ancesters in the conuenant and those no otherwise in conuenant then by faith which cometh are preaching yt followeth that the parentes hauing no Fruict off the couenant but by preaching by can much les haue profit off the Sacrament without it I graunt their infantes saluation dependeth vpon the election off God yet that they may be partakers off baptisme dependeth on that the promise preached was receiued at least in the churches iudgement off those off whom they are descended Thus the doctrine fowle in the D. iudgment is beautifull in the scriptures Let vs now se whether yt be so vncourteously handled off others as off the D. Caluin shewing that the Sacrament standeth of the word and element saith vve muste vnderstande the vvorde notvvispered vvithovvt vnderstanding and faith vvith a noise onely as if yt had povver like an enchantement to consecrate the Element but vvhich being preached causeth vs to vnderstand vvhat the visible signe meaneth Likewise vppon these wordes Preaching the baptisme of repentance the vvord sacrament doth not signifye a vaine Ceremonie vvhich standeth of shevves vvithovvt doctrine but the vvord off God is alvvaies annexed vvhich gyueth life vnto the outvvard Ceremonie I vnderstand the vvorde not mumbled betvvene the teeth but pronounced vvith a cleare voice fit to edifie the faith ▪ for yt is not saide simply that Iohn baptized to repentance as though the grace of God vvere shut vp in the visible signe but that he preached the vertue of baptisme that the figne might haue effect by the vvord he preached Here is not onely the same iudgmēt but almost the same wordes that the life of the sacramēt dependeth vpon the word and that preached In his dispute after as though I had saide that the sacramentes are dead vnles the word be preached im̄ediatly before he declareth that be is gyuen to speake all vntruth be yt neuer so apparant For it is directly against that I set downe in the same place he rayseth this false accusation where I confessing that there is no precise necessitie off preaching immediatly before the sacramentes affirme notwitstanding that preaching owght to goe before them In that he bringeth owt off Zuing. against the Anabaptistes the first place is altogether against him For although the disciples baptized withowt teaching yet it being saide there that our Sauiour Christ tavvght yt is euident that preaching went before the sacrament The other place is to fill vp roume For we say not that young infantes must be tawght before they be baptized but that doctrine must goe before the sacramētes in the church of God as the publishing off the graunt before the seale Where he would conclude that I vnderstood the necessitie off preaching before the administration not in respect off the rest off the church present but off the infantes for that the life off the sacrament perteineth not vnto others then those which be pareakers Who hath so blinded hym that he vnderstandeth not that baptisme receiued off the standers by in their infancie taketh effect daily by preaching after they be off age and that withowt preaching in those vvhich be off discretion yt remaineth vnfruitfull and seruing onely to condemnation Yea euen the baptisme off the infantes not onely perteineth vnto the parentes for whose comfort yt is also ministred but dependeth as I haue shewed off this that they off whom they come haue through preaching off the word before that baptisme gyuen their names vnto Christ Thus hauing obteined that yt is very conuenient that there should be preaching immediatly before the administration off Sacramentes I returne back with one band more to hold the Pastor from rouing beyond the tether off his church Other thinges impertinent vnto this place shal be answered in their places His triumphes vpon that I confesse that the Pastor may for some busines vvith leaue off his church vvith an able deputy be absent notwithstanding he would so faine mount them on highe by his questions are beggerly and doo scarce crepe vpon the ground For where he asketh first whether he may not aswell be away for publicke affaires as for priuate he may if they be of that sort which agree with his vocation But what
then will he conclude of an ynch an ell off a week a moneth off a moneth half a yeare and off a case off necessitie make an ordinary licence when S. Paul will haue him which entreth into this warfare off ministry to vnwrap him self off all occasions which may drawe him from yt being already entred he will much lesse suffer that he should ether feek new occasions off absence or take all that are offered Our Sauiour Christ not suffring those whom he called to this worke to goe bury their dead and giue the farewell vnto those off their howse declared sufficiently that they owght to be very vrgent cawses which should drawe the mynister off the word from the charge committed vnto him And when his loue towardes God must be moten by feeding off his flocke committed vnto his charge his long and often voluntary absence must needes proue a small loue in him towardes the lord Which reason being alledged is altogether vnanswered This rare absence and that vppon vrgent cawse may appeare a so by the practise of the church The Councell off Mens decreing that the Bishop vpon sickenes or some other vrgent cause off absence not able to preach should haue some euery sonday and other festdayes to preach in his steed declareth that the vse off the church did nether suffer the bishop to be away but vpon great cawse and that not so much as one holy day withowt a preaching minister to supply his place Augustine saieth that he vvas not absent frō the church of Hippo but cōpelled by sickenes Zuinglius putting difference betweene an Apostel and Pastor saieth that he that doth the office off a Pastor is alvvaies in the povver of the church ouer vvhich he is set and neuer goeth from it Vppon which both testimonies off the scripture and practise off the church yt appeareth how to haue a deputy owght not to be as the D. would haue it an accoustomed thing but rare and vpon vrgent causes Where before he alledgeth for profe off a deputy that there is no shepherd which hath not a boy or a man to supply his absence he owght to vnderstand that our Sauiour Christ is that master shephherd and therefore he being but a seruant can no more set ones his charge then one seruant discharge him self vppon an other Beside what sheepmaister is there of so smal housbandry which will be content that his stipend should be mangled and a portion giuen vnto an hyreling for a monethly or quarterly ouersight off his flocke suffer the shepherd to enioy the rest yt may well be for the poursprofit off the shepherd but it can not be but to the great scare off the sheep considering that not onely the hyred can not by any likelyhood haue that care ouer the flocke which the proper pastor hath but also that all this disputacion tendeth hether that they may haue a reading or other in sufficient substitute which as the shepherdes boy or rather eurr content with a locke or twoo will leaue Maister Person the maister shepherd the rest off the fleese For such is their fidelity that where as in times past the preistes are commaunded to beare the arck vpon their owne shoulders so they should feed their flockes them selues they are not onely content to shift yt from their owne shoulders but as the foolish and idle preistes in committing yt to such vnstilfull gouernours they lay yt vpon a cart hale yt with oxen not with the aduenture but with certeine euent of an ouerthrow Although herein I speak too fauorably off the greatest nombre off them which doo not bestowe so muche coste as a new cart and a draft off oxen come to For they haue learned their howsebandry rather off him which teacheth that alvvaies it standeth a man in least vvhich may be doon by a poore asse And if this carting off the church of God were sent home to our popish Philisthins from whence yt came the kitchen fyre being thereby well abbated this disputation for adeputy would be well cooled For an able man would either for conscience or honesties sake kepe him selfe from this hyrelingship I say consciēce because amongest other corruptions he can not auoide the crime off Simony as they call yt whylest to obteine a place he is content to part stakes with the Pastor Honesty whylest all not seruill minded will rather choose to be free then vnder the yoke off an other mannes seruice His second questiō whether the flocke be not in like daunger in the Pastors absence with leaue as withowt is altogether from the pourpose when it is no lawfull for him nether with leaue nor without leaue to be away with daunger off his flocke His third where I finde in scripture that the Pastor owght to haue leaue off his parish is answered in that I shewed that the Pastors are belonging to their churches and are their seruantes which he altogether passeth by His laste asketh how he cā in his absence haue an able deputy seing he may not be admitted to the ministery which hath not a certeine flocke As though in suche necessitie for so small a time the supply may not be made by the Pastors hard by which is also answer to that he obiecteth pag. 249. Vnto the next diuis I answer not Vpon that many parishes may be ioined in one and fix townes in Fraunce as he saith are committed vnto one Pastor he concludeth that one Pastor may haue diuers flockes which is vnworthy any answer As if a thowsand sheep in one pasture were not easelier and with more cōmoditie tended then three in three sheepgates For as towching the preaching off the word and administring the Sacramentes vnto diuers townes assembled into one bodie vff a church the labour is almoste all one in ten and ten hundred The residue off the charge being commen with him vnto the rest off the elders may be especially in such necessities borne owt by increasing their numbre according to the compas off the churches territorie Yt is also vntrue that he affirmeth I haue saide that the numbre or distance off place is all one And yt is inconuenient that ether a greater numbre be assembled into the bodie off one particular church then can be at once tawght off one mouth or that the numbre should be taken owt off townes farther remoued from the places off the churches resort then that they may haue conuenient accesse Likewise yt is vntrue which he saith off six townes to one Pastor in Fraunce For although one church be assembled owt off diuers townes yet it falleth owt that the least part off those townes perteineth vnto the church and those fewe meet together in one place to receiue the nourriture prouided for them off the Lord by the hand off their Pastor To that alledged that the Pastor if he vvill haue many flockes should content him selff vvith that stipend off them all vvhich
as the worde off God remaineth if all men in the worlde woulde absolue them But let vs heare whether they be repriued by the iudgemente of these churches or whether they giue any pardon which gaue the condemnation There followeth that they allovve better off the harmeles symplicitie off some then off the exquisite learning off others ioyned vvithe pride And worthily For nether can pride agree withe manners off the minister off God and harmles symplicitie maie well agree with a competent learninge meete for that function In the ende they conclude that they reiecte not the good symplicitie of certein so they be not altogether vnskilful off God and his vvorde Firste this can make nothinge for excuse off our mynisters For when they are to learne their Catechisme and the principles off Christian Religion what knowledge is left vnto them off God and off his worde Then yt is like that by harmles symplicitie they meane some rare and singular holines wherby they goo as farre beyond the other in life as they come behinde them in learninge whiche all see to be otherwise in our ignorante ministers oftentimes the maisters off misrule to all the parishe Otherwise they knewe what Ierome saithe that in that S. Paule requireth that a bishop shoulde be vvise he barreth those vvhich vnder the name off symplicitie excuse the folie off mynisters Laste off all by that skill off God and off his worde they muste needes vnderstande suche giftes as are necessarie for a shepherd to feede his flocke whiche is habilitie to teache to exhorte to conuince the aduersarie and if he haue those althoughe he haue not the knowledge off tounges and artes in the name off God let him haue the chaire And suche I confesse our churche hathe had and hathe some but they are very rare and off thes I doubte not but the confession meaneth Nether can they be withowte manifeste iniurie thowghte to receiue those whiche they had before condemned for shall wee saie off them that with one mouthe yea with one breathe they blewe whout and kolde wheruppon I conclude that the condemnation beinge heere greater then the pardon and the wound wider then the plaister yow were verie neere driuen when yow were compelled to vse the testimonie off thes churches to couer the nakednes off the ignorante mynisters ▪ your notable slaunder off the Adm. I am contente shall as yow saie reste in the readers iudgmente That I haue gathered yowr argumente faithfully towchinge the learninge off Catechismes is shewed before There foloweth the 2. diuis the first being a blank where beside the causes by him assigned of want off able Ministers be to no pourpose considering that we shewe there can be no cause off instituting a reading ministery and be also owt off place considering that he shoulde haue opposed them to those which I alledged in that behalf that which onely was materiall that we be in cause off that fewnes is onely saied Where I alledged owt off S. Paul that yt is an expresse commaundement that a pastor should be able to teach and conuince gaynsayers and therfore to be broken vpon no occasion he answereth that S. Paul sheweth the qualities off a pastor but saieth not that we may not haue reading Pastors if there be none or not a sufficient nombre in whom all those qualities concur Then which what can be more bluntly saied For this being a generall rule he owght to haue shewed where the Lord gyueth leaue to take vnteaching mynisters contrary vnto the tenor off this commaundement which he is neuer able to doo For the scripture commaunding the pastors should be able to teach and conuince doth forthwith shutowt all other it being a generall rule that it both commaundeth the contrary off that it forbiddeth and forbiddeth the contrary off that yt commaundeth And there is no commaundement in the scripture which may not be eluded by the D. answer For thus yt may be sayed that we may haue images in churches to teach the ignorant for that although the lord forbid them yet he hath not saied that where there are none or not a sufficient numbre off able teachers we may not haue such supplies Those also which pressed with extreame hunger seeke remedy in stealing finde him their proctor For the lord hath not saied in so many wordes that one which is hungerbitten may not steale as much as will saue his life But when all commaundementes be generall in the scripture albeit they haue not alwaies the vniuersall note off All or None onles there be some exception declared this off the sufficiency off the pastor being not onely vniuersall but vniuersally propounded is better armed against all thes fond cauils For our sauiour declaring that euery one instructed as a scribe vnto the kingdome off God owght to be prouided aforehand with store off doctrine and iudgement to apply yt according to the present occasion doth gyue manifestly to vnderstand that no one may be receiued into the order off pastors which is not able to teach his flocke And the D. may as well say that in default of sober chast and quiet pastors they may chuse dronckards whoremongers swashbucklers as that in default off a teaching pastor they may take vnteaching Yea rather may he say the one then the other cōsidering that sobriety chastitie and quietnes are commen with him to all Christians but abilitie to teach and confute are his proper duties Therfore although thes be both vntollerable yet the church receiueth les harme by pastors which infected with 〈◊〉 doo teach then by them which free from thes are vtterly vnable to teach For the good life off the pastor withowt doctrine wherby they may be both tawght to put their trust in god and see the good workes they should follow is as a faire coulor withowt light to shewe yt by vtterly vnprofitable where the word truly preached shineth oftentimes clearer in the heartes then the clowde of the pastors disordered life cā stay the fruict of And albeit all commaundementes off God are such as may not for any cause be broken yet this S. Paul gyueth off the Pastor hath a speciall fense cast abowt yt wherby it might be kept in greater safety For the spirit of God foreseing this shamefull prophanation off the ministery together with the present daunger vnto the church vseth a preface to this description of the pastors office vsed rarely and but in matters of greatest stablenes saying yt is a certein doctrine As if he should say that which foloweth is an vnuariable and vnchangeable rule which can by no autoritie of men for any cause not onely be brokē but not so much as bowed or once vvrinched a side His reason that Paul was glad those preached which swarued frō that rule beside that I haue shewed it ridiculous is here owt of place cōsidering that thes readers which would haue rēt his heart in peeces being ordeined with breach off the rule off
saied that it ingendreth knowledge off the doctrine off saluacion Where I alledged that the consideration off the creatures may nourish faith not able yet to breed yt he answereth then let vs haue images that they may be lay meÌ„nes bookes Which beside the coÌ„men fault off being nothing worth is a wicked and popishe answer For if I had made the consideration of the creatures equall vnto reading off the scriptures in that teinement off saluation as I compared them onely in that both nourishing faith nether could ordinarily breed yt had yt bene lawfull therfore for hym to match instruction by images with that which cometh by beholding the creatures ys there ether the same or like proportioÌ„ between the schoole of Imagery and of the creatioÌ„ of the world are thes bookes of the same print the one coÌ„ming froÌ„ the lordes presse the other owt off the deuils printing howse the one giuing a good report off the Lord and setting owt his glory the other dishonoring him the one teaching the truth the other being Doctors of lies and vanity finally the one being commaunded the other forbidden But thus must the iudgement off God be fulfilled against the ennemies off his truth in closing vp their eyes which seing will not perceiue The like blindnes yt is that he accounteth an image a visable creature making therby a carpentour a creator In graunting that preaching is the moste ordinary meane to worcke saluation by his opinion shaketh a token that yt will fall flat in the end For if it be the moste ordinary and the moste ordinary ordinarily moste effectuall then it is vntrue he saith that the word simply redd is as effectuall as preached Where vppon lifting vp off our Sauiour as Moses lift vp the serpent following Caluins interpretation which expoundeth yt off the preaching off the gospell I shewed that the word preached being lifted vp higher then when yt is redd is easelier seen of the eie of faith this trifler frameth first my reason of the â—â— ver wheroff I make not a lettre mention Secondly bringeth an other interpretation off the place I alledge but answereth not Caluins reasons who coÌ„futeth it Thirdly he saith that although the interpretation be graunted which I followed yet the cause is not proued therby for that Christ is lifted vp by symple readiÌ„ng â–ª which is no sufficient answer onles he had added that it is lifted vp as highe For when I affirme the word set in a lowe place I meane not that all reading symply and in it self considered is on the ground but in comparison off that when it is expounded by preaching And if preaching doo make yt better vnderstanded and easelier seen then when yt is redd onely which at vnawares he manifestly confesseth then yt is true which I haue set downe that preaching in respect off reading doth as yt vvere set the vvord in a more sightly and therfore higher place As for Caluins interpretation which I followed becawse yt is dowbtfull and the conference off an other place semeth rather to confirme Augustines who referreth yt to the crosse off our Sau. Christ to spar owt the D. from his owt courses let him follow that he bringeth I will not striue especially seing the same sense off lifting vp our Sauiour by preaching appeareth otherwise where by yt he is saied to be crucified before our eyes Vnto that I alledge off the sauour off the vvord svveeter and more nourishable vvhen it is braied and cut then vvhen yt is by reading giuen as yt vvere vvhole and in grosse towching the first he asketh whether the word redd is not a sweet sauour in steed that he should haue sayed as sweet which he durst not In the second whether there be no discretion required in reading yes but more in preaching Although thus he towcheth not the matter for vnto the point of breaking and cutting off the scripture doone by preaching which applieth the generall doctrine to the particular circumstance wherin it is like vnto aromatique spices sweeter broken then whole and vnto holesome meat apter to nourish when yt is chewed or cut then when yt is not he answereth nothing For as thinges aromatiquall and meates both broken and who le haue the same sauour and vertue off nourishing in regard off them selues yet in regard off vs are sweeter and more nourishable broken c so the word off God off the same vertue in yt self both redd and preached ys vnto vs more profitable preached then redd wherunto perteineth that Saint Luke calleth the interpretation off the scriptures an opening of them which in the second edition because yt was leo figuratiue then the comparison off aromatique thinges that being a metonimy off the preacher for preaching I put in the place theroff for if interpretation off the scriptures be the opening off them as Saint Luke declareth calling yt opening in one verse which he called interpreting in an other yt followeth that the word redd in respect off being preached is as it were shut and clasped for this cawse are the ministers off the word saied to haue the keyes off the kingdome off heauen for that withowt their ministery off preaching the kingdome off heauen ys as yt were locked Where he asketh whether I thincke the praise of preaching the dispraise of reading all vnderstand that it is easter to strike water owt off a flint then to finde honest dealing in this man For is this to dispraise reading to prefer preaching before yt In commending preaching before praying and priuate meditation of scripture more then priuate reading and practising more then both doo I dispraise priuate reading or meditation and yet the word off God is the same redd meditated and practised But this is a Popish practise which vpon that we prefer faith to good worckes concludeth that we make no account off good worckes Where vpon that preaching is called both planting and watering yt is shewed that as the hovvsbandman receiueth not fruict onles both be doone so no saluation to be looked for vvhere is no preaching he answereth that there is shewed how the word off God is not effectuall onles God gyue encrease which is to no pourpose For he not onely sheweth that but that God gyueth his encrease through their preaching and that they be the howsbandes by whose preaching the Lord maketh his orcheyard He answereth further that in this place there is no comparison betwene reading and preaching but considereth not how the scripture giueth this as also those before cited vnto simple reading therby singulary exalting preaching aboue bare reading So that although some off thes in some degree or all extraordinarily may be doone by bare reading yet by thes coÌ„mendations as it were by a more precious apparell is aduanced the grace off God more richly rached vnto vs by the hand off preaching then reading Last off all he answereth that tilling and watering may be applied also vnto
cōmen wealthes and in the superiority which he hath ouer kinges and iudges he hath no superior but immediate autoritie vvith his father Therfore the mouldinge vpp off the two estates and gouernementes together is to lay the foundations off many errors Last of all admitting this distinctiō how cometh yt to passe that this poincte of his that there are manie archbishops in the owtward regiment off the church being that which is denied is lefte vvithowt any assistance off reason out off the scripture Here remaineth onely to proue the title Head off the church to belonge onely to our Sauiour Christe I muste therfore desyre the reader to tourne vnto the 6. diuis pag. 181. where the D. confesseth as much as I that Christe is onely the head of the church If Christe be onely head then that I set downe that the cyuill magistrate is head of the cōmonwealthe and not of the church standeth But if the magistrate be head off the church then Christe is not onelie Howbeit hauing for feare off the owtcry off all made a litle curtesie vnto the truthe he forth with lifteth vp his heele againste it and will haue the ciuill magistrate head also off the church wherupon muste followe infynite absurdities firste the doctrine off the Apostle is by this means cleane ouerthrowē which sheweth that this tytle Head of the church was gyuen to our Sau. Christe to lifte him aboue all powres rules and domyons ether in heauen or earth Where if this title belonge also vnto the cyuill magistrate then yt ys manifeste that there is a powre in earth vvherunto our Sauiour Christe is not in this pointe superior And by the same reason that he maie gyue the cyuill magistrate this title he maye gyue him also that he ys the fyrste begotten of all creatures the fyrste begotten off the dead yea the redemer of his people which he gouerneth For these all are a like gyuen vnto hym as dignities wherby he ys lyfted vp aboue all creatures And beside that the whole argumente off the Apostle in both places lead to shewe that this tytle Head off the church can not be saide of any creature yt ys confirmed by the demonstratiue article wherwith the Hebrewes esyecially whom Saint Paul folowed vse to tie that vvhich is verified off one vnto hym selfe alone For he saith he is the head as if he should saie he and none other is the heade of the church Againe if the church be the bodie of Christe ād of the cyuill magistrate yt shall haue two heades which being monsterous is to the great dishonor off Christe and his church So also shoulde come to passe that the church hauing the magistrate for head is accōplished and made a perfecte man without Christe so that the knittinge of our Sauiour Christe should not be an accomplishmente off that which lacked but an addition off that which is to much And if the churche be planted in a popular estate then forsomuch as all gouerne in commen and all haue autoritie all shall be head there and no body at all vvhich is another monster Now yf vve consider the cawses why our Sauiour Christe ys called the head of his church which are that as the head is the higheste parte in a man aboue which ther is none allwaies ioyned with the body so he ys the cheifest and highest in his churche inseperably knitte with yt and that as the head gyueth sense and mouing vnto all the bodye so he quickneth and to gether with vnderstanding of heauenly thinges gyueth strenght to walke therin I say when thes be the causes yt ys manifeste thes thinges nor no one off them ether agreing or hauing any possibilitie to agree with any creature in heauen or earth ether towards the whole church or towardes any partycular assembly that the name off the Head of the church can not be without great violence gyuen vnto any symple creature And yff yt be saied that the cyuill magistrate is a subordinate and mynisteriall head off the church as the magistrate beinge head off the commen wealthe hath other which maye be called vnder heades beneath hym he muste vnderstand that those heades are appoincted becawse the cheife magistrate can not be presente with the whole body off his people nor in his owne person performe the office of a head vnto them all But forasmuche as Christe is neuer seuered from his body nor from any parte off yt and is able and doth performe that wherfore he is called head vnto all his churche yt owghte not to seme strange that there may be a subordinate head in the commen wealth where there can be none in the church And as yt hath certaine grounde in the scripture that this tytle of head of the church is to highe to be gyuen vnto any man so hath yt bene confirmed from time to tyme by writers both olde and newe which haue had the honor off Christe in any conuenient estimation Let vs therfore see vvhether this ialousie ouer the title of head of the church not onely in respecte off the whole but in respecte also off a particular congregation haue their approbation Cyprian saith there is but one head off the church The bishop off Salsburie affirmeth the same Augustine proueth that the minister which baptiseth can not be the head off him which is baptized because Christe is the head off the vvhole church And in another place that Paule coulde not be head of the churches which he planted becawse Christe is head off the vvhole body which reason should be nothing worthe if ether Saint Paule or any other minister mighte be a ministery all head off the church vnder Christe And if the name of ministeriall head off the churches which Paule planted can not be gyuen vnto him which was a gouernour nexte and immediatly vnder Christe in that same kinde off gouernment in the which our Sauiour Christe is head that is to say spirituall no not then when there was no Christian magistrate to make chalenge vnto that title and to bring yt into dowbte whether yt belonged vnto S. Paule or to him yt can not be that the magistrate may take vnto him that title whose gouernmente doth not approche so nere vnto our Sauiour Christes as he is head off the church And as they haue taken awaye this tytle from the ministers ouer their flockes so haue they from Emperours and princes in regard off their subiectes Ambrose saith yt ys the greatest honor the Emperour can haue to be called sonne off the church and in the same Epistle a good Emperour is vvithin not aboue the chutch Caluin teacheth that there is but one onely head of the church vvhich is Christe that the name doth onely agree to him that in that name he can haue no substitute vpon earth Where yf yt be saide that he mente that off the Pope ouer all churches althowgh the disputation be directed againste the Pope yet his reasons are
officers bringe singular fruict vnto the commeÌ„ wealth For whilest they conquere by the word riote adultry couetousnes pride idlenes c. wherby diseases beggery translations off inheritance from the right heires needles dearthes seditions rebellions whereoff euery one is an engin able to pull downe the commen wealth they may be well called the horse and chariot of the coÌ„men wealth But yet as the pastors can not therfore be saied officers of the commeÌ„ wealth no more can the magistrate which by vertwe of his ciuill office giueth singular assistance vnto the churche be called properly the churche officer Yf as I see it like some to call magistrates a kind of officers in the churche because they being members by publike calling procure the quiet theroff they which are disposed may so speak I will not striue But why I esteme the title off head of the church not to agree vnto any simple creature etherin heauen or earth I haue shewed my reasons let the church Iudge The questioÌ„ is not whether the name of Archbishop is but whether it owght to be coÌ„tinued and if the coÌ„tinuance of it in our church draw such credit the putting downe of it in all other churches throwghowt ChristeÌ„dome must needes bring great preiudice But it is lawfull therin is the question Which althowgh he hath ofteÌ„ affirmed yet we are come to an end of the decisioÌ„ of this question by the scriptures and no word browght to confirme it Wherin ether he is litle beholding to his cawse which will minister him nothing to say or his cawse to him which leaueth it thus destitute For althowgh the reasons against yt should be insufficieÌ„t yet if he would haue this title continew in the church he should haue by shewing the lawfullnes of it owt of the word both perswaded those which haue an euill opinion of it and confirmed them which wauer For the sixt diuis let the Iudgement be the readers Before I come vnto the 7. I will for the cause alledged in the beginning off this treatise take in here the residue off the 20. off S. Math. Yowr transâ—ation the kinges off the Gentils wherby yow would prone that he putteth not a difference betwene the cyuil and ecclesiasticall power is faulty as that which withowt necessity goeth from the proper signification off the word For it signifieth naturally not the Gentils but symply any nation in which signification yt is taken oft in the ould and new testament and not onely when the Israelites are ioyned together with other nations but euen when the holy gost speaketh of the Iewes a part he calleth them by the same word here vsed Therfore it appeareth that there is nether any such meaning of the EuaÌ„gelistes and if there were yet he gaineth nothing For it is easy to answer that he therfore maketh mention off the Princes off the Gentils forasmuch as there was no King nor soueraigne ciuill principality amongest the Iewes Wheruppon our Sauiour was coÌ„pelled to take example off princely autority from the Gentils And if there were any small fragments of cyuill gouernement in the Iewes handes yt was the high priestes and other ecclesiasticall persons Which beside that yt was bastard and degenerate from the institution off God it was both more ambitiously sowght as may appeare by the ecclesiasticall stories and more tyranically administred as appeareth in scriptures then any the most disordered gouernement amongest the Heathen So that if our Sauiour would haue set forth a patron off ambition and tyranny in gouernment he needed not haue sowght it amongest the Gentils when he had it at home Yt may be saied further that he taking his example off the cyuill dominion off the Gentills would therby pull owt off the peoples heades that fond opinion amongest them and the rest off Iewes that they at the comming off the Messias should be Emperours off all the world and all the Gentills be their subiectes Especially considering this petition off the sonnes off Zebedy was grounded off that idlephansie And if neede required it were not hard to bring examples off diuers Kinges and principall magistrates amongest the Gentils which both came vnto their gouernement modestly and vsed yt with all equitie and commoditie off the subiectes as off the contrary part diuers off the Kinges amongest the Iewes whose entry hath not bene so honest nor gouernement so easy vpon which consyderations it may appeare that there was an other reason off making mention of the Gentils Math. 6. then in this place Last off all there is nothing answered to the example off our Sauiour Christ which doth manifestly ouethrow the D. interpretatioÌ„ For wheÌ„ as it is certeine that examples are browght to explane the rules which goe before and in the example our Sauiour Christ opposeth mynistring vnto others to this to be ministred vnto by others it must needes follow that the place which went before must be vnderstanded simply of domynion and not tyrannicall domynion for if the example had bene sitting vnto M. D. meaning he should haue saied as I came not tirannically to be ministred vnto or ambitiously to desyre it but modestly to rule The distinction also of the Magistrate and off the minister wherin the weight of this cawse lieth is not towched This diuision off domynion is altogether idle for it is plaine that when I say the cyuill Magistrate is seuered by bearing domynion from the ecclesiasticall person I ment lawfull and when as I deny that the ecclesiasticall person can exercise any domynion at all what place is there left to this diuision for what dominion soeuer he had proued to haue bene lawfull for an ecclesiasticall person had bene suffycient ouerthrow of that I set downe And as the diuision is superfluous so yt is vnskilfull For the two first partes the rule with oppression and the rule described 1. Sam. 8. be all one and the last member comprehendeth all that goe before And so it is not onely no good diuision but no diuision aâ— all Nether is he any happier in applying off it for where my second proposition was that the ecclesiasticall person is seuered from the cyuill by bearing domynion he saith that is true in the two fyrste significations Wherby muste follow that ether yt is lawfull for the cyuill magistrate to rule with oppression or els for the Bishop For if it be lawfull for nether of them theÌ„ one is not seuered from the other in those kindes off domynion The last section off the 62. page c. perteining altogether vnto the question off Bishopes bearing cyuill offices I will put ouer vnto the proper place Here the question is onely what belongeth to the mynister in respect off his ecclesiasticall ministery The autoritie off man in Gods cawse weigheth no further then weight is giuen by reason Therfore yow should not preiudice the exposition of this place by Bucers Iudgement especially coÌ„sidering it hath counterpois of other as learned Howbeit although
seruant restreining their seruice off ech off them vnto the residue off their fellowes Againe the circumstance in S. Math. and Marck that the other ten disdained at the tvvo brethren and which S. Luke expresseth that the contention vvas amongest the 12. vvhich off them might seeme to be greatest do manifestly ouerthrow that saying For if they had not desired to be aboue the residue off their fellowes there had bene no cawse off disdaigne And the strife was not what gouernment they should vse ouer the people but which amongest them selues should be greatest Wherupon onles we will say that our Saui. Christ laied his plaister beside the sore and spake from the pourpose off that the cawse required yt must be confessed that this domynion forbidden is in respect off one minister ouer an other Whereby him that sitteth at the table he would haue the people vnderstanded he is grosly ouerseen for so by the testimony off our S. Christ the people should be greater then he him self seing he affirmeth that he vvhich sitteth is greater then he vvhich vvaiteth For noting the dignitie off a minister by that vsually annexed vnto maisters to sit at the table while their seruaÌ„tes wait he teacheth that forsomuch as he their maister to whom it apperteined to sit and be waited vpon was vnto them rather as a seruant waiting then a maister sitting at the table much more they being fellowes should serue one an other Where yow charge me for not truly translating the greeke word I appele to the maisters off that toung whether I haue followed the naturall etimolâ—gie Where yow ad that it signifieth the cheif ruler or guide in euery busines I acknowledge yow for no Lexicon and being in controuersie it owght to haue bene proued Stephen doth affirme that they vvhich translate it a prince haue no ground that he can tell off What cheifty S. Peter had amongest theresidue off the Apostles shal be considered in a more fit place it shall be sufficient here to haue noted that the Ans exposition off the word first is the same with Hardinges and my exposition which he here confuteth alone with the bishops which he confirmeth by good argumentes where he denieth that S. Peter was Prince of the Apostles or Lord ouer them or had power or dominion ouer them Then it ouerthroweth Musculus For where he saith that Peter vvas found in many places to haue bene cheif amongest the rest the D. by this exposition maketh him cheif symply in all places Thus it may appeare that yowr cawse findeth small harting at Musc hand Yow say my exposition is contrary to the truth and iudgement off the learned but yow shew onely that it agreeth not with certein interpreters iudgement that the truth is otherwise yow shew not If yow had shewed the fyrst that it is contrary to the truth the second had bene needles I propounded that doubtfully and although that significatioÌ„ of the preposition hath good warrant owt of the vse off that toung yet I will not stand at the armes and with so learned interpreters for it Howbeit when I gyue place yet S. Luke may not gyue back who vsing the simple verbes withowt the preposition maketh manifest that there is no peruersenes or deformitie off gouernment noted for if he shoulde meane to set forth a peruersenes or deformitie off gouernement and hauing so many wordes to doo it with yet did not I can not see how he should haue bene voide off some fault Where yow say he must be expounded by thother Euangelistes that can by no meanes be admitted For it commeth often to passe in the greek toung that compound verbes are put for simples but that simples haue a compound signification the vse off that toung will not suffer For the vse off the word in the Actes and S. Peter beside that it is not straunge for one word in scripture to be taken diuersly that place maketh nothing to proue this signification For what vvord soeuer S. Luke had vsed in the Actes yet forsomuch as that action came from those vncleane spirites it must needes be disordered Therfore the peruersenes off it doth not appeare in the word but in the subiect from whence it came And if a man would make that word to signifie a deformitie becawse that rule was beyond measure by the same reason the wordes Prince Rule Power names off lawfull autoritie should be condemned For that a scribed vnto Deuills they are allwaies tyrannicall And Beza also here alledged in that place saith the vvord noteth not any dominioÌ„ there but onely that they gat the vpper hand of those exorcistes which when it may be taken aswell in good part as in the euill the Answ can by no meanes help hym selfe therewith For that off Saint Peter where he saith it is manifest that it signifieth violent dominion I graunt that that rule which it signifieth is violent in a Pastor but that which is violeÌ„t in him ouer his flock is moderate and lawful in a Prince ouer his subiectes and so S. Peter kept the same distinction off gouernement off the ciuill Magistrate and the Minister which he had learned off our Sauiour Christ For if he ment by that word a dominion simply tirannicall he vvould haue opposed yt vnto a moderate dominion not as he did vnto being an example off the flock As if he should say yow must not beare dominion ouer yowr flockes as Princes vvhich vvith diuers notes of their magnificence get autoritie ouer their subiectes but yow not hauing thes meanes to get reuerence and autoritie amongest yowr flockes must so much the more enforce yowr selues to all commendable example off life Wherunto agreeth that which Saint Paul vvriteth vnto Timothe whom he exhorteth to kepe vp his autoritie in the churche and deliuer him self from contempt vvhich his yowth vvas subiect vnto by being a patron off good vvorckes vnto his churche And Beza in that place saying by those vvordes care and no kingdome ys commytted vnto Mynisters and that by that place yt appeareth that Pastors may not beare rule ouer their flockes after the manner off kinges doth sufficiently declare that the word doth not signifie simply a tirannicall dominion but one such as agreing vnto kinges is notwithstanding vnsitting for Pastors For he saith kingdome and Kinges not Tyrannie nor Tyrantes which he owght to haue saied if he would haue confirmed yowr interpretation Beside that Stephen putteth both the simple and compound to signifie one thing that is a simple dominion withowt any suche taile off tyrannie as is here imagined Yow may deny if yow will that the snow is white By all thes places must needes be vnderstanded those which Musc off whom yow speake doth interprete but yowr self had sayed before that he expoundeth those three off S. Math. Marck and Luke therfore although yow added not three yet that muste needes be vnderstanded And in this yowr shift yow breake yowr
how this vvill agree vvith that here in the tenth and 13. diuis I haue shewed that it is one thing to be conteined an other to be expressed in scripture Therfore if yowr cawse haue no better hould then that it must goe to the ground I haue shewed how this answer of leauing thinges to the order off the church varied by circumstance c. can not stand in the Archbishops case nor ordinary gouernement of the church The argument is not off lykes or payres but of the smaller vnto the great And although it should be true that yow say that the Lord loued the church then aswell as he doth now yet the reason is still of the les vnto the great For yf he did so particularly describe the offices not of such excellencie and vveight as the offices and mynisteries of the gospell yt must follow that he hath much more vsed that dyligence in particular description of the mynisteries hereof If the 4. off Iohn meane that our Sauiour should tell all thinges necessary to saluation then the Mynisterie vvith the degrees theroff being necessary and vvithowt the vvhich the Lord doth not ordinarily gyue any saluacion at all yt is cleare that he hath also declared all degrees thereoff That owt off Sainct Iohn 20. is spoken of the miracles our Sauiour did not off his doctrine and is thrust in by strong handes in this place The cheif amongest the rest off the Mynisters I might well with S. Paul call the pillers and therfore if the Lord should haue made no mention off the Archbishops they keping suche a place as they doo yt is truly saide that the pillers should haue bene forgotten Yf the Magistrate were an officer of the church and not of the commen wealth there are many places in scripture both ould and new that describe his office ād all that perteineth to him at large Wherof if the Ans can bring but one for his Archbishop this controuersie is at an end Here be many we knowes wherof some are not indebate and those vvhich be haue no causes annexed vvith them vvherby other might come to knowledge off them as vvell as he Yt is therfore enough to haue mentioned mine answer vvithout staying in confutation of all those thinges vvhich he at all aduentures throweth owt to make vp an answer He saith it is daungerous to say that the ministeries owght not to be reteined withowt which the church is fully builded becawse the Magistrate is therby shut forth as well as the Archbishop Our questiō is what ecclesiasticall ministeries are sufficient the mention therfore off the ciuil Magistrate is absurd Also it is too great ether ouersight or peruersenes not to vnderstand that an vniuersall rule is not to be racked to euery thing but is true off those thinges vvheroff it is gyuen Beside that hereby at vnawares he confesseth that the church may be fully builded and accomplished withowt a Christian Magistrate which is against that he saith the magistrate is the head of the church His exception that there is no perfection off vnitie off the church by reason off good and bad mingled first is nothing to this question secondly yt is a quarell not against me but S Paul vvhose wordes I vsed Thirdly as the ministeries off the vvord are saide to saue and bring vs to the kingdome off heauen becawse they gyue both entrance and aduancement therunto although vve come not to full possession off them so long as we being in this life need them still so they are vvell saied to bring vs to perfectiō of vnitie because hauing begun to knit vs together here they follow still vvith new increases vntill vve come to perfection in the life to come As for that there must be offices as well to preserue and kepe the perfection off vnitie as to build yt and bring it therunto beside that for shift off answer he is driuen as yt were with one breath to affirme that he denied before off the perfection of vnitie he must vnderstand that the church is alwaies in building as long at it is here vpon earth and alwaies in knitting Therfore if those offices be sufficent to build and knit they are perfectly sufficient and if tharchbishops office be to kepe the church builded and knit yt is manifest vve may spare him here and that his seruice must then begin when all other ministries take end The next diuis hath for answer according to the D. coustome onely that which I preuēting answered afterwad sauing that he addeth as an exceptiō that there be Apostles which there reckened are notwithstanding by vs shut owt from the present estate off this church as yf he vnderstood not that in the founding of the church thes may be necessarie which afterward are not which also being intreated off in an other place needeth not here to be repeated Yt is Calu. which reasoneth of the place of the Ephesiās that forsomuch as the Apostle saith that the church is fully builded withowt a Pope therfore there owght to be no Pope and how slenderly soeuer he seemeth to the Ans to haue reasoned yet shall yt appeare by the vanitie of his exceptiōs against it cōming afterward to be discussed that yt is weighty But where he saith albeit the argumēt be good against the Pope yet yt ys not so against the archbishop onles he can exempt hym by miracle or teach vs some other Logick then hath hitherto bene heard off the reason includeth him as well as the Pope For if it be graunted that the Popes office is therfore vnprofitable to the church becawse S. Paul made no mention off it in the ministeries requisite for the building theroff there being like wise no mention off the office off an Archbishop yt must theruppon follow that tharchbishop also is vnprofitable yf there be the same cawse there must follow the same effect The reason added off the Pope doing thinges which tharchbishop doth not claiming thinges which tharchbishop claimeth not c. hath no place at all for the question is not off the abuse and tyrannie off the Pope but whether as it is vnprofitable that one should gouerne all the churches in the world so yt be also that he should gouerne all in a whole prouince And by the D. answer the office off Pastors should be vnlawfull if they chalenge vnto them selues thinges vnlawfull and the Popes office good and lawfull if he bearing rule ouer all churches would absteine from those and such like chalenges which the Ans setteth downe The contrary wheroff is true For as the Pastors office can by no owtrage of him that exerciseth it be made vnlawfull so the vsage of dominion off one ouer all be yt neuer so moderate and qualified can neuer be lawfull Last of all the Archbishop him self if he should chalenge those thinges in his prouince which the Pope chalengeth ouer the world should be by this reason as vnlawfull an officer as the Pope
is confessed that it was in the time off the councell off Nice before which yt can not be shewed in any allowed writer for where the D. citeth the Centuries which call Cyprian vvhich was before it Metrapolitan they doo so call him according to the coustome of times vvhich folowed as is before proued owt off their owne testimonie As for the name of Primat the firste tydinges of it is a great while after 400. yeares vvhich is vvithout our coÌ„pas for the name off an Archbishop the firste mention alledged off him in any councell is nere vppon 500. years Where yt is said the name of an Archbishop is attributed vnto Athanasius he should haue tould who doth attribute that name and then he had had his answer For nether in his worckes nor in any auncieÌ„t writer that speaketh of him is it found Indeed a Louâ—nist doth so call him but he hath no credit in this cause Where he alledgeth that the name of Archbishop is found in the 2. Apologie of Athanasius if he shew â–ª Athanasius him selfe speaking so in his owne laÌ„guage I belieue him if he can not he must change his stile and in steed off Athanasius say the translator off Athanasius And beside that the Emperour set one Iohn a Miletian ether heretike or schismatike to be more then quarter master with him yf yt be true that he hath so earnestly disputed before that an archbishop and Metrapolitan be all one Alexandria being the metrapolitan citie onely and the bishop therof the onely metrapolitan yt muste needs fall owt that vvhere this other Archbishop is supposed off the D. to haue bene there could be no archbishop and consequently that that is the translatours faulte There remaineth onely Epiphanius the firste off auncient vvriters that gaue this name place in his vvritinges I am content therfore let this be the firste flight off that name in to the church which being abowte the yeare off our Lord 389. at vvhat time Ephanius florished neere vppon 400. yeares yt is apparant that both the Ans ys greatly ouershot which would make vs belieue this name to haue bene from the times of the Apostles and that I kepte my selfe within my boundes in saying the name off Archbishop can not be shevved in any allovved vvriter by the space off 300 years after Christ As for that he would proue yt to haue bene in Peter the bishop of Alexandrias tyme which was before the Nicene cocell becawse Epiph. doth call him Archbishop yt hath bene often answered that that title was not of the Person but of the times vvherin Epiphanius vvrote For vvhen the vvriters before him and those in Peters time speaking off Peter call him bishop allwayes and not archbishop and not him onely but Achilles Alexander and Athanasius which succeded hym ys there any man of so smail iudgement as not to vnderstand that this alteracion off title came off the alteracion off times So we see that off all the testimonies the Answ hath mustred there is not one that hath stricken one stroke in the quarell off that antiquitie off the name off Archbishop The two next sections I leaue to the Iudgement off the reader sauing that besides the vanitie off thexcuse of Basils pouertie ioined vvith vntrwth considering that Basil had not bene so small a while bishop in one place aÌ„d other but he might haue gotten some wull on his thread beare gowne if the fleese off his Archbishopricke had haÌ„d yt yt shal appeare God willing that as this pouertie accompanied the bishops in perfequution so the ordenary of all godly bishops off those times and long after which liued in great peace was as far from this lordly estate as the honest frugalitie off diuers mynisters with vs is from the riotous porte off a bishop As for my narrow search off a comma wheroff he speaketh his pleasure he might know that althowge a comma be but a litle pricke yet yt ofte maketh a great matter The greatnes off the metrapolitanship of Basile ouer Capadocia was scarce a plowghe land in comparison off that which yow imagine I for there were at the least two Metrapolitanships in Capadocia one in Caesaria where Selladius which succeded Basil was bishop an other in Nissa where Gregory Basils brother was Beside that if it were trwe yow say after that Pontus perteined vnto the Bishop of Constantinople Capadocia being in yt Basil was his vnderling and therfore no cause vvhy he should be called so great a metrapolitan as yow pretend Here destitute off all defense he flieth from the cawse vnto by matters partly vaine and partly false vvhich I vvill void in as fewe wordes as I caÌ„ before I come to the poincte off the cawse Where he saith Simeon tharchbishop was a bowte the councel off Nice and therfore no cawse to accuse those times more then the former examples and for profe alledgeth that he was martyred by Sapore yf yt he trw that is written Sapores beginning his reigne abowte the yeare of the lord 310. and reigning 70. yeares yt might be well for any thing yet alledged that he was martyred abowte the yeare 380 and yf we follow his accompte yet yt is answered Where he saith I declare my vnskillfullnes in saying the bishop of Constantinople chalenged not the preheminence ouer all let yt be noted that the hunger he hath to reprehend my vnskillfullnes presseth him so violeÌ„tly that feeding one yt so gredyly he hath not so soone swallowed as he is compelled to regorge and lay them vp againe For in the nexte sentence reprehending me as if I had saied that the bishop off Constantinople chalenged the title off vniuersall Patriarche in the councell off Calcedon he plainly affirmeth he did not chalenge yt yet I say not that he chalenged that name but onely that he mighte ordein bishops off Asia c. Where he woulde proue my vnskilfulnes becawse Pelagius and Gregory Bishops off Rome write agaynste the Bishop off Constantinople for that cawse in deede so he maie easely finde him selfe talke yf when I speake of the bishop of Constantinople which was in the time off the Calcedon Councell he talke off the Bishop off Connstantinople more then 100. yeare after Whether this be ether to trifle or not to know thes thinges the knowledge wheroff he so often chalengeth let the reader iudge Againe he saith the name off vniuersall bishop was offered vnto the bishop off Rome in the councell off Calcedon and notwithstanding saith yt was firste gyuen vnto the bishop of Constantinople in the Councell of Constantinople being long after Which are thinges vnlikely For he making the Bishop of Rome to begin his clayme to that tytle so longe before yt is not to be thought that being then offered him he would refuse yt Which yf yt were true the bishop of Constant could not be the firste that had that title giuen him in the Councell of Constant long after But yowr lodes man here
M. Knox which had put them to flight should take heede that he suffred them not to come in againe althovvgh it pretend to haue great force to kepe vnitie vnder vvhich pretence it deceiued the auncient Fathers Thus yt appeareth what Bezaes iudgement is both off thes names and offices Now I retourne to the places alledged off the D. Where he is saied to affirme that archbishops c. are called in scriptures by one commen name off Pastors and Bishops his wordes can not be referred vnto the name or office of Archbishop For considering there is no mention off them in scripture the scripture can not call them Pastors and Bishops especially seing he sheweth how they are Pastors in respect off administration off the word and Sacramentes not in that they rule ouer Bishops in which regard onely it is confessed that they were called Archbishops c. Where he affirmeth him to call the names holy the names which he calleth holy are the names of Apostles and bishops not of archbishops c. which may appeare by that following and therfore they glory off the succession off the Apostles and true Bishops For seing they conuey them selues vnto the succession off the Apostles and Bishops vnder the cloke off names what names are so fiâ— to disguise them that they might be so taken as those And where he saith he reckeneth vp archdeacons Canons Seniors Deanes subdeacons clearkes amongest degrees taken owt off the word off God and from the Primitiue church fyrst he hath not they were taken but they seeme to haue taken c. Then if the auncient church be taken for that almost 400. yeares after Christ as yt may be compared with that â—00 yeares after Christ we deny not but thes names were in the Primitiue church Moreouer the Ans to help the Dean hath falsified Beza translating for Deacon Deane which haue no more kindred then a mat and a mattock Last off all if he could haue brought this testimonie owt off Beza for allowance off names yet he should haue bene afraied to haue vsed this aduantage seing that place ministreth moe weapons to beate then to defend him For there he condemneth flatly as a rable and filthy assemble of monsters vnheard off in the auncient church the degrees of Suffraganes Officials Proctors Vicares Chapleines c none off which I suppose the D. may well spare in vpholding that estate which he phansieth so good I appele not vnto the Apostles times onely but vnto the doctrine and order established where we are sure there is light withowt darcknes truth withowt daunger off errors And if we leauing thapostles should take a patron off gouernement off men which may be deceiued yt owght rather to be drawen from the Apostles times then from those 500. yeares after those being so much purer as they were neerer the incomparable brightnes of the gospell which shyned then and further from those mistie times off Antichrist wherwith after the whole earth was ouercast For if this man off sin being in the eg in thappostles time receyned by litle and litle continuall increase vntill he came to his full growght I see not why there was not as great oddes betwene the purenes off the church in thapostles time and that 500. yeares after as betwene this and that 1000. yeare after the Apostels And if there were no remedie against the corruptions off those purest times but in taking heed to the light which the Lord had set vp in the doctrine and gouernement off thapostles how muche more for remedie against such palpable darcknes as couered the face off the earth in our times owght we to haue resorted vnto that perfect and vnmedled light not vnto them whose both heauens vvere darker and sight dimmer and which beside greater night within them selues by reason off their infirmitie had lesse day withowt by reason of the glowmie times To that alledged and confirmed that thes dignities off Metrapolitanes archbishops c. were as the handes that pulled the feet vvhich brovvght the shoulders that lifted vp the Pope into his seat vvhich othervvise he could neuer haue atteined vnto the Ans saith onely that sectes and heresies gaue strenght vnto Antichrist which is nothing to pourpose as thowgh both thes coulde not stand well together Where he saith the writers and Councells off 500. yeares laboured to kepe owt Antichrist and therfore thinges taken from them can not iustly be suspected I merueill he vnderstandeth not first that diuers off that auncientie he speaketh off and off the cheifest of them knew not what Antichrist was but imagined fnodly of him as of one singular person and that he should starte vp soudenly c. that Elias should come to destroie him that he should be borne of the Iewes that he should raigne in Ierusalem and diuers other suche fables Secondly that he remembreth not the ignorance off men to be such that they often times make him a bridge against whom they thinke to stop the passage Thirdly that being oftentimes ouermastred off their affections with hinderance off the truthe they giue somewhat to them Further that errors and heresies as he saithe strengthening Antechriste he coulde forgette the manifolde errors which are to be founde in the fathers of the time he prescribeth Laste off all if he coulde be ignorante off thes thinges yet examples off our daies might haue tawght him that euen now there be which knowing Antichriste and detesting him cease not to mainteine thinges wherby that kingdome partly standeth Where he saith no man of modesty and learning will condemne orders of that time withowte manifeste proofe especially in gouernement I would gladly knowe of him why he should add especially in gouernement what reason can he shewe why we shoulde not call their gouernement to as narrow a searche and as streight a trial as their doctrine When as yt can not be but where the Doctrine is attainted the infection theroff muste nedes come vnto the discipline especially when the Mynisters which sitte at the sierne off gouernement be seased with that euill And the discipline of the churche being the wall wherwith the doctrine ys kept safe as in a citie the wall is that which feeleth the firste assaulte and is battered before the citie can lie open to the violence off the artillery so in the siege off the churche by spirituall ennemies the discipline and gouernement is that wherinto the firste breache is made So that hauinge good cawse to holde for suspecte whatsoeuer either in doctrine or in gouernement those times lefte vnto vs not confirmed by substanciall proofes owte of the worde we haue yet better cawse to mistruste their gouernement as that which hauing abidden the greatest brunte hathe more neede off reparacions This appeareth in the firste Councell of Nice where the moste off errors decreed vppon were in the discipline and not so much in the doctrine beside the vngodly coustome which may appeare to haue occupied almost all the churches towching
the places harde by and lykewise a deacon three which together with their owne bishop should haue autoritie to heare and determine the causes in debate Now if for euery accusation of a bishop there were assembled 12. bishops at the least and that when the matter required haste for euerie accusation of an elder six and off a Deacon three beside their owne bishop and that those might be taken in places harde by all men maye vnderstande that there was more neighbourhood in bishops then is nowe and that yt behoued that those bishops dwelte within no greate compas which might be assembled with suche commoditie For if we shoulde imagine the same condition off bishops then which is nowe how euill aduised should the Councell haue bene to cawse so manie bishops to come so farre with so greate charges with suche longe absence from their churches with suche delaie and suspence off the purgation off them whose speedie dispatche stoode so greatly vpon the glorie off God and edification of their churches Herof yt may easely be seene that this blessing and gifte of God in hauing off a bishop rained not onely vpon greate cities and greate townes but euen ouer litle borowghes and villages where there was a sufficiente congregacion hable to mainteine this mynisterie off the worde And althowghe there be diuerse cawses why the aunciente stories doo not so often make mention of the bishopes of vplandishe townes as that in those tymes of persequution a nomber off them did scarcely yelde one sufficiente companie hable to mainteine the mynisterie off the worde and that by all likelihoode the countrey men rownde abowte made their resorte vnto the good townes nexte them which had a bishop and for that the stories for the moste parte keepe the memorie onely of the moste famous bishops which by godly policie off the churche were placed in the moste peopled townes yet notwithstanding yt ys not harde to shew diuers which are expressedly called bishops off small townes or villages As off one Zorâ—cus Bishop of the village of Coman of Mares Bishop of a small towne called Dolicha of Asclepius Bishop of a small towne in Africa and of others vvhich partly I haue alredy shewed owte off the testimonie off Ierome and partly shall be shewed God willing in discouse off Cyprians testimonies I leaue also to speake of Gregorie bishop of a small cytie called Nazâ—anzum of an other which was priest of the Castle Cumane that is Bishop both which are as well forbidden as to haue a bishop in a village I followeth to shewe vpon what cawses and by what meanes the churche so fruictfull in Bishops became afterwarde so baren wheroff albeit yt is moste certein that the principall cause was the wrathe off the lord who angrie with his churche sente suche a dearthe yet the doings off men which God had disposed of wisely for the accomplishement of his counsell towchinge the man of synne were partly vnaduised partly proceeding off ambicion and that not alwaies after one sorte but taking encrease and gathering strenght with the time So that the ambition which at the first was kepte in some awe and restraincte in the ende brake owte and shewed yt selfe as yt were bare faced In the Africane Councell yt appearethe that before a certeine lawe made of the Emperour whersoeuer aÌ„d in what diocese soeuer there was a churche off Donatistes conuerted vnto the Catholike churche that those proselytes and conuertes had a Bishop of their owne and the Councell there confessethe that they deserued so to haue Wherupon yt folowethe that how many churches so euer off the Donatistes were conuerted so manie Bishops at the leaste there might be in one onely diocese And if this were a good lawe and equall as the Councell confessethe what cause can be assigned why yt shoulde be taken awaie as appeareth yt vvas afterward In the second Councell of Carthage yt vvas decreed that those dioceses which had no bishops should haue none aÌ„d those which had should kepe their proper Bishop Notwithstanding if the number off the faithfull should encrease in that diocese that the people desyring a Bishop if the bishop of the diocese consented therunto might haue another bishop Now in that the Councell ordeined that there should be no bishops in that diocese where there had bene none yt is apparaÌ„te that their dioceses were not the tweÌ„tith parte so large as ours For is there any likelihoode consideringe the nomber off the bishops before proued that the Councell woulde decree that there should be no bishop within 30. or 40. myles as it is with vs And when it ordeineth that in that diocese where there was a bishop alredy the nomber of the faithfull encreasing there might be at the instance off the churches and consente of the bishop other bishops ordeined yt vttereth the cause vvhy diuerse parishes rounde abowte vvere the diocese of one bishop namely for that here and there in this aÌ„d that towne there vvas scarce gleaned owte a sufficient number off those which hauing giuen their names to the gospell were hable to make one sufficiente congregatioÌ„ to maintein the ministrie And therfore ordeined that wheÌ„ the harueste of the faithefull should be more plentifull in those places then also counsell might be taken off moe Bishops Wherupon vve may gather this to haue bene a cause of this scarcitie that it being lefte alwaies in the discretion off the Bishop vvhether he vvoulde haue any moe Bishops throwghe Ambicion yt came to passe that the nombre off Christians increasing they woulde not suffer the people to haue moe bishops but ordeining them Elders and Deacons together with the name off the Bishop reteined vnto them selues a greate parte off the autoritie and gouernement to other belongyng And this ys that vvhich that excellent Martir of God William Tindall shortly noted vvhen the multitude off Christians encreased and the church vvas endovved vvith greate possessioÌ„s the bishops made theÌ„ substitutes vvhich they called preistes and kept the name of Bishop vnto them selues And how vnhappely it was lefte in the Bishops choise ether to suffer another bishop to be instituted or no in his diocese maie appeare by this shameful ambition vvhich euen theÌ„ beganne to shew yt selfe For so far vvas yt that they vvoulde departe vvith any already gotten that they assaied to encroche and sometimes by stronge hande vpon the boundes off others as appeareth by the manifolde debates which they had one with another aboute their precinctes testified in the booke of Councells Another cause off this dearthe was an order taken amongest theÌ„ that where in Afrike there were greate swarmes of Donatiste heretikes and other straungers from the churches as euery Bishop gained those foreners vnto the churche so he enioyed them Which thinge extended not onely vnto euery ones owne diocese but also to other dioceses if the other Bishop were somewhat sluggishe in that behalfe which what a greate
but vpon gainsaying And in that Boniface which wrote vnto Zachary had appointed those three bishops in small parishes and townes all vnderstand that yt was no new thing then to haue bishops in such places But because he closethe his eyes and will not see thinges set before him at leaste let him grope them The false Damasus and verie Antichriste writing of this matter inueiethe vehemently againste the appointinge off Bishops in villages which he calleth countrey bishops And yt appeareth plainly in that Epistle that they had the selfe same autoritie in all thinges which citie Bishops had There he saith also that yt was forbidden that there shoulde be any bishop ether in small cytie or in village or Castell leste the name and autoritie of a bishop should waxe vile And therfore commaundeth that those bishops off villages being disgraded off their Bishoprickes shoulde be throwne downe to the order off preisthoode Heere the D. maie vnderstande that euen in the time off Antichriste this order off euerie churche hauing her bishop was not so abolished but that there were remnantes off it in diuers places and some which mainteined the libertie wherin God had sed them againste that owtrage off Satan who becawse he woulde make off bishops yong Princes and saw that euerie parishe was not hable to mainteine that pompe wente abowte with robberie off the reste to lifte vp the heade off one Heroff yt may be seene what cawse the D. hathe to charge me with the falsifiyng of the Popes wordes and how his habilite to defende the Popes decree doothe not answer his desire As for the reasons I browght to proue that the placingâ— off bishops in villages and small cyties coulde no more bringe them in contempte then the shininge of the sonne or falling off the raine in villages as vvell as in cyties breedeth contempte off those benefites or the name or autoritie of father gyuen to poore men as vvell as riche maketh that ordinance off God nothing set by he answereth not a worde Where I further alledged the foresight and wisdome of God which shoulde receiue a greate wound if in instituting for euery churche a Bishop he shoulde not haue foreseen this inconuenience which the Ans vppon the Popes autoritie meinteineth he askethe when and where I haue I truste shewed him now bothe althowghe he if he had ether vnderstoode or remembred what he wrote before twise or thrise when with Ierome he propoundeth vnto vs that Bishop and elder were all one by Gods worde he should not haue falleÌ„ into this extreme boldenes of denying euery thing which is enemie vnto his vnaduised assertions For yf yt be the institution off God that euerie churche shoulde haue a teaching elder and that elder according to Ieromes saying alowed off him were a bishop yt muste needes folowe that to haue a bishop in euerie churche ys the institution of god And because the D. boweth so casely vnder the autoritie of men that he estemeth it the beste proofe let him vnderstande that this was the iudgemeÌ„t off twoo of the moste famous meÌ„ which our lande browght forth thes manie yeares And the same also executed for the testimonie off the truth off god wheroff one of them amongest other thinges suffred also for this cause nowe in hande a The sixte Article which M. Barnes was condemned for is this I vvill neuer belieue nor can neuer belieue that one man maie by the lavve off God be bishop off tvvoo or three cyties yea off an vvhole contrey for that yt is contrary to the doctrine of S. Paul vvhich vvriting vnto Titus commaundeth that he should ordeine a bishop in euery tovvne prouing that by the worde elder the Apostell meaneth a bishop M. Hooper shewing that one man may not haue two lyuinges addeth but this is clavv me and I vvill clavv the. If the bishops permitted not their priestes to haue 2. benefices it may fortune the priestes vvould likevvise say the bishop should be bishop but of one citie And in deed so it should be and till magistrates bring theÌ„ to that point it shal he as possible to heare a bishop vvade godly and symply thorovvgh the scripture in all case off religioÌ„ as to driue a camell thorovvgh the eie of a nedle A great pitie it is to see hovv far the office off a bishop is degenerated from the originall in the scripture It vvas not so in the beginning vvhen bishops vvere at the best as the Epistle to Tite testifieth that vvilled him to ordeine in euerie citie of Crete a bishop And in case there vvere such loue in them novv as vvas then tovvardes the people they vvould say them selues there vvere more to doo for the best off them in one cytie then he could doo They knovv the primitiue church had no such bishops vntill the time off Siluester the first c. Off thes thinges partly and partly of that which shall be hereafter God willing spoken I leaue yt to be esteemed off the indifferente reader with how small ether knowledge or conscience the D. hathe affirmed that yt can nether be shewed by scripture nor confirmed by anie ecclesiasticall writer or practise off the primitiue churche that ether euery churche shoulde haue her bishop or that there should be bishops in villages and small Cyties Thother off the two questions remaineth whether yt can be shewed by scripture and by examples off the primatiue churche â–ª that there were in one churche moe bishops then one which we might in parte haue bene eased off if the answ hauing fallen owte with the trwth were not likewise falleÌ„ owte with him selfe For he approuing off the testimonie off Ierome which affirmeth elders and Bishops all one and that the elders off a churche chose one amoÌ„geste them which onely kepte the name of bishop dothe withall necessarily affirme that before the time that this ordinance was established there were diuers bishops in one church And in saying the word bishop is not commenly vsed but for him that in degree is aboue the rest he at vnawares confesseth that there were diuers bishops in some churches althowgh not commenly But becawse he hath a facultie in denying and affirming withowte shewing any reason and that his worde is no bonde to tie him with all when yt maketh againste him some thinge also muste be spoken towching this matter And seing I haue shewed that he is by S. Paules determination a Bishop which is apâ—e to teache and to exhorte to conuince false doctrine and reproue corrupte maners and that the Ans can not denie but one suche alwaies is not sufficiente for some churches especially where the commoditie of assemblies is so good that euery daie the worde off good ys to be preached yt can not be denied but that there bothe maie and owght to be moe bishops in a churche muche more in a cytie then one And that this was the institution off God it appearethe by the practise of the churches in
Callis Deep Ireland and Flaunders then at Canterbury Yea the triall from Carthage vnto Rome is much easier seing there was but three daies iorney betwene Rome and Carthage As appeareth by that Cato to induce the Senate of Rome to desiroy Carthage held ovvt a fig saying that vvas but the third day sithēs that fig grevv in Carthage Therfore Cyprians argument by his interpretacion is not worth a shoe buckle to proue that they owght not to flie from Carthage to Rome the passage being easter then from one end of a Prouince to an other Especially making suche large Prouinces as he doth that is one to cōteine 160. bishoprickes belike such as ours Where he saith this reason may serue as well againest VVestminster hall leauing that as impertinent vnto this question it shall be sufficiēt to answer that besides that there be many causes ended in lower courtes houldē almost in euery village he owght to vnderstand that ecclesiasticall causes are to be handled with greater speed then ciuill matters of consciēce more then of the pourse the title of heauēly inheritance more then the earthly of the life to come then of this So that althowgh the trial of ciuill cawses for the whole realme were as he saith necessary a◠Westminster yet the same reason will not stand in ecclesiasticall In all thes places which the Ans hath browght owt off Cyprian Eusebius Socrates it is manifest that one bishop is opposed vnto heretick bishops Whereby may appeare how like it is which I haue alledged that by one bishop is vnderstanded not the vnitie off nombre but off truth in religion And that there be no doubt hereof let Cyprians wordes be considered That there should be an other altar appointed and a nevv priesthood besides one altar and one priesthood it can not be VVhatsoeuer he be vvhich gathereth īn an other place scattereth yt is adulterous yt is vvicked yt is sacriledge vvhatsoeuer the rage off men doth institute vvherby the ordinance off God is broken Now except the Ans will say it is wicked against the word of God adulterous to haue two bishops in one citie yt must follow that Cyprians wordes doo not bar many bishops to be in one citie And what if it be shewed that not onely in Cyprians time but in Cyprians church there were diuers bishops Augustine speaking of the Donatistes which seperated them selues from the church for that they saw certein faultes vnpunished therin saith Hovv did then Cyprian and other the Lordes corne in that church meaning Carthage of vnitie eate the Lordes breade and drink his cup not vvith the people onely or commen sort off the Clergie but vvith the bishops themselues vvhich vvere couetous ketchers and vvhich shall not possesse the kingdome off heauen I woulde gladly vnderstand what Bishops they were like to be with vvhom Cyprian did celebrate the supper off the lord were they not Bishops off the churche off Carthage If they were it appeareth I haue not so vainly expounded Cyprian as the Ans would beare his reader in hand And althowgh the D. be not able to proue that ther was but one onely bishop in a citie in Chysostomes time yet I graunt that was obserued in the moste places Whether I am able to shew that from Christes time there were two Bishops in one cytie before appeared now appeareth what a vaine crack it was that all the godliest and best learned expound Cyprians wordes off an Archbishop when not one can be found to testifie it Yet to th end he may haue some thing to mainteine this brag he goeth about to make the writers differ from them selues For if this place be off the autoritie that euery bishop hath in his dioces as writers doo flatly affirme in so much that the bishop off Salisbury bringeth in Cyprian speaking after this sort For euery bishop saith Cyprian vvithin his ovvne dioces is the priest of God c then yt cannot be vnderstanded of an Archbishop For the autoritie Cyprian speaketh off being the highest and such as could not be controlled of any other bishop yt must necessarily seclude tharch bishops autoritie which is aboue a bishop And as the Answ to make Cyprians place serue his turne was compelled to expound Priest archbishop church Prouince so to make the bishop and M. Fox help to beare owt his folies he must expound dioces Prouince and Bishop archbishop And what man̄er of proofe is this to cōclude the greater by the lesse yf of an archbishops autoritie he had concluded a bishops it had bene more probable but off a bishops to conclude an archbishops and off dominion ouer a dioces as he pretendeth to conclude dominion ouer one Prouince is far owt off square The next is answered in the beginning The first place is that the bishop vpon that of Cyprian saith confusion and sectes rise in a Prouince or dioces vvhere the Bishops autoritie c. Here because the bishop maketh mention off Prouince he concludeth that he speaketh off an archbishop As if his wordes may not well be taken that the confusion of secres insueth in a whole Prouince thorowghowt because the bishops autoritie which be therī is dispised For beside that I haue shewed that the bishop can not sauing his former sentence which he soft repeateth expound Cyprians place off an archbishop if he had in this place ment an archbishop it had bene easie to haue coupled him with his Prouince as he doth the bishop with his dioces He asketh me what I call him that hath gouernement off a Prouince I aske him where the bishop off Sal. saith Cyprians place is to be vnderstood of that bishop which hath gouernement off a Prouince doth the onely mention of the word Prouince ▪ infer an Archbishop If he proue an Archbishop and Prouince relatiues so that a man can not name the one but he muste vnderstand the other he saith some thing Ad also that the Ans dealeth vnfaithfully in this place For the bishop making his conclusion both off Cyprian and of a place off Honorius Emperour he propoundeth it as the conclusion of Cyprians place onely Whereas if he could conclude off thes wordes vvithin a prouince an archbishop yet yt were easie to answer that the bishop put in those wordes in respect of the place cyted owt of the Emperour and not in respect off Cyprians Considering that within a dousen lines after he affirmeth that Cyprians place is vnderstanded off thautoritie off a Bishop within his seuerall dices and by vvhole Brotherhood a companie vvithin a seuerall dioces For that off M. Novvell pag. 33. beside that whatsoeuer he speaketh there is not vpon this place of Cyprian but of an other I haue shewed in the former booke that cheif Prelate ys not alwaies vsed for a bishop And that it is not altogether vnlike but M. Nowell might meane so appeareth by that the D. cyteth owt off the 62. and 63. pag. wherehe taketh cheif
whom there is any light off iudgement would say it is matter off storie vvhether the appointing off one in euery church ouer the rest is remedie againste heresie or no I◠perteineth to the storie that one was placed ouer the rest at such tyme and place as is set downe by Ierome likewise that the cawse that moued them to bring in this coustome was for preseruacion off peace and none off thes is denied but whether this cawse were well assigned and whether this supposed to preserue peace banished godly peace is the question If this be a matter off storie storie hath a larger kingdome then euer I heard off Yet this he doth as absurdly charge me with after in Iustines testimonie where likewise I denie no part off his storie Yf this be to discredite men to say their autoritie ovvght not to vveigh further then yt hath vveight ether off scripture or some reason grovvnded theroff then I haue discredited all writers from the Apostels time For by thes weightes I haue esteemed the best But I leaue to be cōsidered what a popish tyrānie he goeth abowt to bring into the church which lifteth the credit of any be he neuer so godly ād learned aboue that which I haue here alledged Where he saith I confound Monarchie with Tyrannie in that I ask whether the church be not in as great daunger when all is doon at the pleasure off one as when one pulleth one peece and an other an other yt is but a vaine shifting hole For althowgh thes wordes at the Pleasure and lust off one be for the moste part spoken by way off dispraise and I willingly confesse I vsed them becawse this Ecclesiasticall monarchie seldome or neuer deserueth better yet my wordes following declare that my comparison is betwene the Ecclesiasticall gouernement off one and off many not betwene one gouerning tyrannically and many moderatly For supposing that both the Archbishop and those which gouerne in commen be godly and catholike I affirme that he being one is sooner drawen into error then many sooner ouercaried with his affection then a godly companie In answer wherof and reasons wherwith this is confirmed the D. falleth flatly into that wherewith he chargeth me For in steed that he should haue marched many godly and learned ministers with one he matcheth him with the multitude and commē sort and in steed off comparing one ruling by law with many gouerning by the same he compareth him with a lawles companie and in steed off comparing a litle vvater with much of the same kinde he compareth a litle conduite water closed vp in lead with much fennish and muddy Which what leaden answers they be let the reader iudge For in this path of reasoning which he walketh in a man may proue it better to haue but one eye then two becawse some see better with one then other some with both His answer to that off preferring contention before vvicked peace that we haue the true doctrine and right administration of Sacramentes c. and therfore no contention is to be moued is as muche to the question as if he had answered off the wether For the question is not of the estate off our church but off all generally nor whether we haue the truth of doctrine c. but by what way yt ys best kept His answer to the similitude of fire stricken by flintes is more fond For I shewing by yt that contētion is better then wicked peace he answereth the fire stricken may be in suche a time that it may consume the whole countrey and that it is madnes to light a candell at noone daies As if the fire off the truth which I spake off and so called off our Sauiour can consume any thing but straw stuble c. or the Apostle were not glad that the truth came forth allthowgh by contention or it were noone day when the heauens thorowgh ignorāce ād errors are like an haircloth which is the time I spake of And where hauing shewed that tharchbishop is not fittest to kepe the church in possession off the truth I admit by way off disputation that he vvere the fittest adding that forsomuch as he hath as great force to kepe men in error vvhen they are fallen into it this in commoditie ovvght to driue vs to some other gouernement he answereth a monarchie being the worst kind of gouernement when it ruleth by affection ceasseth not to be lawfull when it ruleth by lawes Where first I refer the reader to that before that it is one thing off the forme off church gouernement an other of the commēt wealth which is answer to all thes slanderous speaches here repeted Secondly the church receiueth greater dammage by an Archbishop keping yt in error then the commen wealth by any outrage off tyrannie For there can be no tyrannie in the gouernement off the cōmen wealth so extreme wherin there is not somthing tending to preseruacion off it and consequently off the church But in the gouernement off an Archbishop fallen from the truth and in the swinge off his vncontrolled autoritie keping the truth vnder there is nothing but destruction and ruine withowt step or footing off the fauour off God towardes the vpholding off the church Seing therfore tyrannie in the commen wealth is not so great an ennemy vnto the commen wealth as a church tyrant vnto the truth there is better cawse to haue a Monarchie in the commen wealth then in the church as that which can not stray so far as the other from the end wherunto it was ordeined Moreouer the cawse why the Monarchie in commen wealth can not be condemned is for that it is one off those gouernementes which God hath established and allowed by his word But the Archbishoprick to let pas that yt is contrarie to the word off God yt is sufficient in this consideration that yt hath no allowance off the same For therupon foloweth that althowgh the abuse off those thinges which God hath approued can not destroie the lawfull vse off them yet this which hath no further alowance then of the mouth off mē may vpon experience off euill husbandrie in the church matters be worthely reiected So yt may be seen that althowghe the Ans would make one case off a Magistrate and archbishop yet there is as far distance betwene them as betwene heauen and earth Yt resteth to shewe that the archbishopricke hath bene so farre from nourishing the church peace that yt hath bene the knife wherwith all the stringes and knottes theroff haue bene cutte in peaces Againste vvhich the Ans alledgeth firste the testymonies off Cyprian and Ierome Wherin besyde that I haue shewed that they helpe him not yt is before declared that nether Cyprians bishop did any thing at all nor Ieromes the ordination excepted but by common consent off all the elders Not onely because they were at making off the church lawes vnder which wrinckel the D. woulde hide the excesse off the archbishops
off this diuis he saith Peter was in all such assemblies the cheife and in an other place he was the cheife in euery matter and for proufe saith the moste off the old ecclesasticall writers in that respecte counte him cheife of the Apostels yt had bene good he had shewed at the leaste one I cōfesse that there are ould writers which call him so but that they doo yt in that respecte I denie for the cheifty they giue him ouer the reste was for his singular zeale and other giftes not as he saith for that he had autoritie ouer them For proofe wherof I will propound him firste that Peter was Prince of the Apostels as Plato was of the Philosophers likewise that he was Prince off the Apostels as Moses Helias Dauid Isay off the Prophetes Now if Plato were ruler or had the commaundement off other Philosophers or if Moses of the Prophetes that cam after his death then Peter also might haue the same ouer the Apostels but if they be therfore so called because they excelled the reste in giftes then yt is cleare that thes fathers estemed not Peter chiefe for any powre or autorny ouer the reste An other saith Peter vvas that the reste off the Apostels vvere off like not office onely but honour and povvre directly contrary to D. vvhere he preferreth Peter in honour and contrary to that he both here and pag. 68. althowghe not in the same in wordes yet indeed doth affirme Thirdly it is to be noted that heere the D. hande is againe with Harding againste the bishop to whom alledging that Peter had powre ouer the reste off the Apostels the bishop answereth Peter vvas chiefe off the APostels as Aristippus is called chiefe off Philosophers that is the firste or beste man off the company where he denieth that S. Peter was ether lord or Prince or had povvre or vvas gouernour ouer the reste off thapostels He addeth from this opinion that Peter in all such assemblies and in all matters moderated the reste was chiefe and spake first the late writers dissent not If he meane the Papistes I graunt if the Catholike he bringeth not nor as I thincke can bring so much as one which saith so Here he hath the bishop againste him to whom may be added Caluin Bullinger Beza Gualter with others Wher I shew that Iames ruled the action Act. 15. and not Peter considering that he pronounced the sentence vvherunto the rest agreed he saith first that Peter spake before the reste which is vntrew for there was great disputacion off both sides before Peter spake ▪ therfore yt muste needes be that the cawse was propounded by some before And so yt is friuolous he alledgeth owt off Caluin to proue Peter proloquutor for that he stoode vpon this especially that he mighte declare thestate of the question as yf the Apostels Synode were so confused that a great parte of it was spente or euer the company were informed of the state off the question Wheras Caluin meaneth that S. Peter confirmed pithely the trwth in that question and not that he trauailed to shew wherin the question consisted as appeareth by Peters whole oration So that Saint Peters oration is firste set downe not for that he spake firste but for that he was the first amongeste the Apostels and Elders which S. Luke thowght good to commit to writing It is also childish that Peter was moderator because he spake after there was great disputacion as if euery one which cometh betwene two parties striuing to draw thē to concord hath autoritie ouer them considering that ther is not a worde in Peters oration which giueth the least ynckling off suche autoritie beside that to helpe him selfe he shamfully slaundreth the Apostels Synode attributing vnto yt a tumult and bitter contention where S. Luke saith onely greate disputacion which may well be withowt both Whether yt be custome off Synodes for the moderator to speake laste and so to ponounce the sentence gathered vpon the former voices I leaue yt to the iudgement off the reader referring him also to that the bishop writeth in this behalfe who proueth against Harding which will haue Peter cheife that Iames vvas chief because he gaue the definitiue sentence Wherby also appeareth that this came ether from Pigghius or Harding or from some suche popishe fen After admiting Iames Moderator he faithe being then bishop by the Scoliastes iudgement yt was not vnmeete he should be moderator within his charge I haue shewed that an Apostle can not be changed into a bishop and if he coulde yet yt was vnmeete that S Peter should leefe his right wherto he saith he was ordeined off God to vse from thascention vnto his dying day Therfore it is against him directlie but how against me he nether doth nor cā shew Beside it is absurde that an Apostle shoulde giue place vnto a bishop because the bishop is in his charge considering that an Apostle is in his charge in what churche soeuer he come and that as an Apostle to whom the bishop vnlesse he were by consent chosen to gouerne the synode owght to giue place And if yt be trew that it is meete the bishop of the place where the synode is houlden should gouerne the synode why hath he made this before a necessarie cause off hauing an archbishop to gouerne Synodes The other place off the Actes makethe for this matter For if Iames assembled the lders and ruled that meeting wherin it was determined what S. Paule should doo him selfe being present which was as shall appere in nothing inferior vnto Peter he might by the same right moderate the assemblie in Peters presence Where I shew that this is the superioritie which is amōgest bishops and ministers he answereth yt is so but not all But owt of the scripture wheroff the question is here he neither doth nor can shew other superioritie so that here his cause faleth flat Wher I alledged Maister Caluin that one off the Apostles indefinitelie not any one singular person had the moderation off the rest he answereth owt off him that it vvould not be absurde if vve confesse that the Apostels gaue preheminence vnto Peter Which is but daliaunce For he affirmeth simply that our Sauiour Christ meant nothing lesse then to make Peter cheife off the reste off the Apostels Here Hauing proued that Peter vvas nothing els but one of the tvvelue that he vvas equall vnto them their fellowe not their lord that they had as muche povver ouer him as he ouer them he disputeth that if it were graunted which the Papistes require off Peters being Prince off the Apostles which he vtterlie deniethe yet yt followethe not which they would conclude off a Pope Likewise he daliethe in shewing what autoritie the Consull off Rome and masters of Colledges haue adding that tharchbishop is content with lesse Where Caluin compareth the moderator in the ministers meeting with the
the lord hath giuen The Prince with his power the minister with his conforte and instruction the priuate man with the wealthe God hath blessed him withe at the least with his praier the communion off sainctes and fellowfeeling in the members off one bodie requiring this Hereoff we haue example in Aurelius which saith he had care off all churches Bouins a Popishe friar or Monke I well remembre not whether tawght in this point in the same schole with the D. in esteming that care off churches implied rule least the bishop off Rome should be hurte by that speache expoundeth all churches all in Affricke Our D. h alledging this place because in taking care in his sence for rule with authoritie he should in trauailing with the Archbishop haue browght vs forth a Pope in steede off all churches putteth many churches so that he wil neuer want for if his places be to streite for his Archbishops measure he settethe them vpon the teinter hookes if to wide he laiethe them in water and shrinkethe them But what shoulde I stand in confuting this seing yt is so farr off that care prouethe rule and dominion that it is sene not onely in one equall ouer an other but euen in seruantes ouer their masters As for that that is said Chrysostomes care restreined here to certeine places can not be vnderstanded off suche a generall care as comprehendeth all churches I answer that the care off his owne churche being properly commended vnto him it is mete that as the churches next doo most affecte his bettering it commonly yf they be good making yt worse if they be nawght so in that generall care ouer the rest ther should be suche dispensation as to haue a greater care ouer those then ouer the rest as we see in wise Princes more carefull off the borderers then off those further remoued from them In which degre yt is not vnproperlie spoken that he had the care off suche churches rather then off all His foure notes owt off Theodoret depend vpon these wodes the same care so that yf yt fall owt that Chrysostome had not the same rule ouer Thracia Asia c. which he had ouer Constantinople then those wordes spoken off the gouernement he had in that citie are idle to proue the same in Thracia c. But first the D. crieth owt of corruption crafte and either ignorance or malice good wordes Maister D. I pray yow For ignorance yt is no greate matter I am content yow say that I borowed two greeke wordes off my neighbours But why corruption c did I not set downe wordes sufficient to confute your vntrew dealing which in stede of care put downe rule was I bownd to set downe more in greke then yow surmised in Englishe yea could I haue set downe the worde yow require with any sence vnto the reader vnles I had set downe as yow now the whole story and so haue giuen your cause greater coulour then your selfe knew of then I helpe yow diuerse times with argumentes which yow make much of but will yow binde me to do so alwaies I haue more coulour to crie out of yow which to proue Chrysostome gouernour of these places voluntarily cite Socrates trippinglie vvinding vp in thes wordes et caetera vvhich is your ruine and which manifestly confuteth the largenes yow suppose off the bishop off Consiantinoples metropolitaneship Therfore seing this bitternes must be vented yow at least should haue waited some better opportunitie now let vs see vvhether these wordes he had the same care ouer Thracia c that he had ouer the churche off Constantinople vvill intitle Chrisostome lawfully to as great authoritie ouer one as ouer the other For the discussing vvheroff I must by thy good leaue gentle reader fetche this matter somewhat higher The Councell off Nice bounding and butting the metropolitaneships decreed that the bishop of Constantinople vvhich it calleth the greate citie should be metropolitane ouer Thracia certeine other ouer Pontus others ouer Asia to the nombre off ten metropolitaneships This order was confirmed by other councels off Constantinople and Ephesus as they are obserued and continued vntill the councell off Calcedon vvhich moste confusedly and disorderedly throwghe extreme Ambition off the bishop off Constantinople drowned almoste all these ten in his one onlie sea Where also yt was ordeined by the same Councell of Nice that the Metropolitanes shoulde be off equall power and not one vnder an other this Councel made one Metropolitane ouer a nombre Where further it was ordeined by diuerse Councells as hath partely before and partely may appeare by c Theodoret that the Metropolitane off euerye Prouince shoulde be chosen by the bishops theroff this Councell maketh the bishop of Constantinople to haue the appointement off all metropolitaneships within the compas alledged by the D. Moreouer where the same Nicene Councell with sundrie others ordeined that the bishops of the Prouince at the least three should be at the ordinacion off euerie bishop this Councell giue the yt in the bishops off the Barbarians meaning as I suppose Scithians vnto him off Constantinople Now if the D. will make Chrysostome accessary vnto this famous robberie if giltie off all this confusion and disorder off the breache off so many Canons off the Nicene and other Councels and finally if he will make him a Pope he dothe him that iniurie which I would be lothe For where vnto me alledging that if he vvere Archbishop off all thes churches he vvas off moe then euer the Pope in his greatest pride he answereth that I am greatly deceiued for that Phocas the Emperour made all these churches and all other subiecte to the Pope and appointed him head off all I answere that he is greatly deceiued Considering that the Empire being deuided into the east and weast Empire more then 250. yeares before Phocas made Boniface the third Pope Phocas coulde not hauing his Empire for the most part in the easte where the churches were most ruined make all or halfe the churches subiecte vnto Boniface So that yt ys manifest that Chrysostome by his saying metropolitane off all Asia and a good parte off Europe must needes haue moe vnder him then Pope Boniface What the Pope claimed is nothing to that I set downe which spake precisely off that he was and not off that he claimed to be Therfore if he build vpon Chrysostomes supposed metropolitaneship he doth manifestly allow a larger circuite vnto a bishop then euer any Pope had Yf I would haue sought to haue discredited Chrysostome I might haue answered that yt was no meruaile thowghe he exercised suche dominion considering that bothe Socrates and Camerarius after him which commende diuerse vertues off his affirme him to haue bene a proud man But considering that him selfe opposeth the Emperours large dominion to a bishops charge in one cytie I chose that sence which I setdowne Neither are there any wordes either in Theodoret or the Centuries
so strong to carrie the metropolitaneship ouer all these places to Chrysostome as Nazianzenes wordes before handled are to carrie the metropolitaneship off almost all the churches in the worlde vnto Cyprian For these wordes he had the same care can not be vnderstoode as the D. would that he did the same thinges in all places which he did at Constantinople For how could he teache and rebuke sin in all that circuite as there depriue and excommunicate in proper person as there so that will he nil he the wordes must haue a restreint in respecte off those before as for the greke word he translateth he gouerned which signifieth he adorned vnles he haue some singular licence i◠is for a translation especially too riotous althowghe if that were there yt drawethe no metropolitane autoritie as hathe bene shewed in Cyprians example I graunt Sozomenes are more pressing which speakethe off his deposing off the bishops in Asia and if to mainteine my former answere I would say he deposed them not by his autoritie but by his counsaile as Diophantus said off the cytie of Athenes ruled by him because Themistocles his father vvhich ruled yt vvas guided by his mother and his mother by him and therto alledge that he is called the Doctor off the vvoride by the same Theodoret when notwithstanding he coulde not be an authorised doctor off suche a compas yt would peraduenture be more then he can wel answer But if he will as he dothe make that his paterne to frame his Archbishop by he maketh vs a faicrer but to shoote at then before the archbis being made therby in authoritie off breaking canons off the best Councells by putting in and putting owte off his absolute power not infeferior vnto the pope of Rome and in compasse off dominion aboue him and a fatter Pope then he And beside that it is but trifling to fetche examples off Archbishop like gouernement fower hundrethe yeares and a halfe after Christe or there abowt where the question is off three hundrethe I haue shewed how daungerous yt is to builde vpon the examples off those times especially when euen in this pointe off broad dominion before Chrysostomes time there was an intollerable excesse in the bishop off Antioche which beside Chrysostomes compas had also all Illyricum Towching Ireneus ambassage into Phrigia the D. eye is not simple For after Euseb had shewed that there were Ambassadours sent by the frenche churches to those off Phrigia he addeth as an augmentation that they vvere also sent to the bishop off Rome After to the ende the ambassage might haue more autoritie he sheweth how Ireneus was sent being commended vnto the bishop off Rome to the end as may easely appeare that his letter also obteined with theirs the churches might be the rather moued Whether I haue followed the Scoliastes meaning towching euerie hishop hauing a seuerall congregation I referre me to that I haue before alledged The D. answer to Chrysostome which placeth the bishops charge in one citie that he dothe but shew how the Bishop ys subiecte to as many afflictions as the Emperour and that he puttethe no difference betwene the Bishop and the Emperour is but a cauill For his pourpose is to shew what are the manifold troubles that accompanie the mynistery therby to pinche those which seeke after yt and that he dothe with an argument off comparison in that being but bishop off one citie yet he is subiecte not onely to so many but to moe troubles then the Emperour which hath so large gouernement Now if bishops autority should be extended as the D. estemeth Chrysostomes who seeth not that his cōparison halteth downe right considering that there were few Emperours or rather none sithens Constantine that euer had so large dominion as this ascribed vnto Chrysostome For against this argument yt might haue bene easely replied off those which laie in waite for the ministerie that seing one was able to gouerne so many whole countreis and nations yt could not be so hard a matter to gouerne one onely citie I could not here be put to shifte seing where our question is off 300. yow fetche your proufes off 400. whether I haue said trew let the reader iudge Where I alledge the first acte off the Calcedon Councell that the bishops cried that Theodoret vvas no bishop be alledgeth the 8. acte that he was If yt be a simple answere to set one author against an other yt is muche more simple to set one autoritie at variaunce with yt selfe withowt shewing any way of reconciliatiō That the Councell did well in condēning that Theodoret appeareth for that he had writtē against Cyril euen in that Cyrill wrote against Nestorius errors in which respecte his bookes were commaunded to be burnte with those errors And this was not onely done by the Councel off Calcedon but by that also off Ephesus and Constantinople so that here are three condemnations passed against him for one absolution And that what maner off one verelie which appeareth to haue bene throwghe the fauour off the Emperour Martian For what if he reuoked his heresie there as he had I thinck done before in the Councel off Constantinople yet as I haue shewed there was no cause why he should be trusted with suche a greate charge no not in the D. iudgemēt I suppose so soudenlie and withowt further triall Which I say not to discredite his trew repentance and learned writinges but onely to shew how totteringlie the D. Archbishop is set Where I alledged that the Emperour Theodosius and Valētinian cōmaunded him to kepe him to his ovvne church onely his answere is fond that the Emperours meaning was that he should not come to the Synode For are these two all one to kepe him self to his ovvne churche onely and not to come to the Synode When he might come to the synode althowghe he kept not him selfe to his owne churche onely which he could not haue done yf they had bene all one Where he saithe yt appeareth that the Emperour gaue that charge that he should not come vnto the Synode but called yt maketh nothing to the pourpose For that may well stand with that I alledged off his keping to one churche onely And in dede there had bene small wisdome to haue forbidden him the Councell in respecte off the heresie he laboured off and yet to haue suffred him to gouerne such a mightie people When I expounded tares hipocrites I had not the booke before me but trusting therin to Theodoretes knowledge in the scripture estemed that he meant them off whom the parable is vnderstanded that is those off whose ether corruption in life or doctrine the churche can haue no certeine knowledge to procede againste or to giue as he did sentence vpon Neither is he yet purged off the suspicion considering that yt can hardly be belieued that ther was not in 800. churches one onely heretike And if ther were
not yet yt was hard for him to haue suche knowledge off so many churches wherby he might giue so precise a sentence especially if they be compared with ours which often haue heretikes euen vnder there nose and either see them not or looke throwghe their fingers Where to declare the vnlikelihoode off our bishops with thē in times past Theodoret bishop 26. yeares is shewed to haue had neuer a halfepennie c his answere is he professed voluntarilie pouertie Wherto I haue litle to replie but that the D. for aduantage spareth not the honour of his authors it being a great reproche in so great wealthe as the D. supposeth he might lawfully haue had to be so beggarly The next I leaue to the readers iudgement That the office off Archbishop and Patriarck by Caluin was nothing but to assemble the Synod propound the matter gather the voices c. I haue shewed condemning those names in the generall he must nedes condemne them in the particular for in bothe those names the word off dominion ys put which he condemneth That he condemneth the office with vs is clearer then the sunne and that in diuers sortes first generall in that vppon the Apostles wordes no man may take honour but he that is called as Aaron he denieth yt lawfull to set vp any gouernement in the churche at the pleasure off men vvithovvt vvaiting for the commaundement of God and that the church office deuised vvithovvt his commaundement and expresse ordinance is vnlavvfull Wherby appeareth that the admonitions allegacion which the D. other where calleth grosse is in effect as fyne as Caluins Secondly in that he dothe in flat wordes declare that the holie goste tooke great heede that one should not so much as dreame off principalitie and dominion in the gouernement of the churche Thirdly in that he dothe precisely mislike that any should haue postorall charge ouer a Prouince which he declareth yet more manifestlie when he saithe the gouernement of the highe priest vvhich vvas ouer one nation ▪ being a figure off our Sau. Christ ovvght not to be follovved Wherby appeareth how vntrwly he chargeth me otherwhere with falsifiyng Caluin for saying that his iudgement is that no one should be minister off a whole nation That onely which he liketh off and confesseth to haue bene done according to the word off God is that when there were controuersies to be voided one had the preheminence to assemble the companie c. which preheminence we haue before confirmed so far is yt from vs that we can not abide yt That it can not be drawen further appeareth by that in the beginning off this treatise where it is manifest he streineth him selfe to speake honorably off the maner off discipline in the elder churches yet he saith there vvas almost nothing againste the vvord off God. And further that althovvgh there may be some lack in their orders yet because they did it oft good mynd and erred not muche it is good to gather yt Moreouer towching that institution which off all other is most plausible and least princelike that one in a churche should haue the name off bishop which notwihstanding as hathe bene shewed had no dominion nor autoritie to commaunde the reste he saithe that autoritie had no institution nor ground ovvt off the vvord of God. Wherupon yt is manifest those wordes off Calu. the ould bishops did frame no kind off gouernement but prescribed in the lordes vvord can not be drawen further then I haue said Where he expoundeth Caluins wordes euery singular bodie off church a dioces or prouince yt is as all the rest off these diuisions a shamefull bouldnes considering that Calu. doth in expresse wordes shut forthe a prouince and in calling it a singular bodie vsed moste propre wordes to set forthe a congregation which assembled into one place may at once be fed at one mouthe Where also otherwhere he supposeth Calu. meant by Prouinces suche as are vnder diuerse gouernours because one Prouince in one particular church in one kingdome vnder one Prince is but one bodie c. to omit his absurd speache that a prouince is in a particular churche in stede that he should haue said a particular churche is in the prouince let it be obserued that in making the whole churche in a kingdome but that singular bodie Calu. speaketh off he maketh notwithstanding the churche in one prouince which is the halfe off that yea euery diocese to be that singular bodie So that one singular and vndiuisible bodie off a churche must be twentie and one off them also cōteining an other which is absurde yea by this meanes the church in a 100. Prouinces being vnder one Prince shall be but one singular bodie His reason that he can not meane a particular parish because euery one hath not many ministers is a cauill For it is enowghe that ther were diuerse in some churches as in the churche off Philippes wheroff he spake to draw him to that consideration Besides that there was as shall appeare in the particular churches appointed by the word off God an eldership amongest whom it was meete the same order shoulde be kepte Where he supposethe Caluin to haue thowght the churche off Geneua with all those belonging vnto yt to haue made but one bodie off a churche all see the D. pouertie driuen to leaue his wide workes to seeke some comforte in his thowghtes onely knowen to the lord If I shoulde vse the aduantage off that he spake and I hearde off vndowbted witnesses that althowghe he had no preheminence before the lowest Mynister but onely to propounde the causes gather the voices c. and was chosen therunto euerie two yeare yet he misliked that that small preheminence shoulde so long remaine with one as which in time might breed in conuenience likewise that I hearde my selfe off Maister Beza which misliked off yt for the same cause affirming it cōuenient that it shoulde be done by euerie Pastor off the same resort in his weeke wheroff there be also other witnesses I say yf I should vse this aduantage a great deale more honest then his all see how that chaunge of presidētes which he derideth and will haue my onely phantasie should beside the scripture alledged and vse off the churches in Fraunce haue the approbation off these godly learned men But when in deede he deride the their iudgement written I haue smale hope that he will beare any reuerence to it onely spoken Neither require I that he esteme any thing theirs which can not be conuinced owt off their writinges let him wreste and wring wind and turne his worst But that we be not streight with him admit Caluin so thowght dothe yt follow that becawse he estemed a singular bodie off a churche scarce 20. small parishes lying round abowt wheroff euery off the ministers at the least meete once a weeke bothe for exercise off prophesie or interpretacion off the
him selfe listeth with other such archbishoplicke and vnministerlike loftines reckened and earnestly auouched and yet notwithstanding as he saith sparingly touched to th end belike that it might haue an easyer defense And if the lord bishops are his vassaâ—eâ— the poore ministers what place shall they haue His repetitions I will not touch The autoritie out off the counterfaicte Higinus as I noted him that the metropolitan should coÌ„demne no bishop before the matter heard aÌ„d discussed by the bishops of the Prouince maketh for vs more then yf yt had bene out off the true Higinus considering that the archbishop in the counterfaicte Higinus time being groweÌ„ much our of fashion was yet girded in les roume then ours The like restreincte off his autoritie was in the Africane Councell How fond the D. answer is that our archbishop putteth none out withowt due proof is manifest considering that the greatest monarche that euer was hath no further autoritie to condemne then vpon dew proof likewise what daliance yt is that he doth nothing but by consent of al the realme and therfore off the bishops is before declared Where missing the nomber off the Canon I alledged out off the Councell off Antioch that the metropolitan had not so much as the casting voice vvhen the bishops vvere equally deuided he answereth there is no mention off equalitie off voices as thowgh he vvere ignorant that matters in Councells passed by the more parte off voices Forsomuch therefore as the Councell vppon the diuision off the bishops iudgementes willeth that other should be called yt is to be estemed that that was because the bishops were equally parted Where he saith therby a metropolitan had autority ouer moe prouinces then one yt foloweth not For beside that the canoÌ„ is of all metropolitans so that whatsoeuer any off them might doo in an others precincte that the other might doe in his by this accounte the elders yea the Deacons had autoritie ouer the bishops considering that they accused might call other bishops theÌ„ their owne Where he saieh thautoritie of our metropolitaÌ„ and bishops is nothing increased but decreased forsomuch as nether he nor all the bishops can depriue a bishop withowt the consent of the Prince yt is not to purpose seing al the bishops in the world may not nor euer could off right remoue a bishop by force if the Prince vvould kepe him in Our question is of the ecclesiasticall sentence of deposicion And if he meane that a bishop heretike schismatike or corrupte in manners may not be proceded againste by an ecclesiasticall sentence off deposition yea off excommunication yf the case require onles the Prince vvill consente beside that his endeuour off flattery is to manifeste his meaning is to cut out the archbishop so that he shall doo nether more nor les then will agree with his ease and wherby he may shifte the Crosse from his shoulders For all know that Christian princes may be and sometimes are drawne to fauour those vvhose pastorall gouernement can not be but harmefull vnto the churche in which case the Ecclesiasticall censures owght not to sleepe to th end that allthowghe he can not be remoued yet the churche after he be descried and condemned for such as he is may flie from him That the bishop may excommunicate an elder belongeth to an other tractate that he may depose an elder is vntrw and hath appeared in that the councell off Carthage decreed that an elder accused by his bishop might cal 6. other bishops and the deacon three and likewise may by an other which decreed that being condemned off his bishop ether by right or vvronge he might appeale vnto other bishops Beside that I haue shewed that he might heare no cause withowt his clergie therfore those condemnations by the bishop must be vnderstanded if he be duly and according to the order prescribed condemned He abuseth also his reader in that he would proue the bishops autoritie greater because it was forbidden to those put out by him to goe to the Emperour Considering that the same canon gyueth them remedy againste the bishop in a greater assembly yea euen againste a whole Synode in a more generall then it Whether the 4. Firste principal differences betwene the bishops in times paste and oures now be trwe let the reader iudge off that hath bene alledged Likewise off the fift vpon that vvhich hath and shall be against which he hath nothing but repetitions Also whether the D knoweth any thing off order that denieth this to be the place off mentioning the excommunication in such sorte as I did That alledged owt off the Councell of Hispalis touching that the elder ovvght not to preach in the bishop presence is in a Councell supposed more auncient then thr firste Nicene likewise yt was obserued in the Africane churches in Augustines time And that yt endured vntil the yeare off the Lord 659. when there were â—rosse corruptions tendeth to further condemnation off our Bishops further owt of fashion in that behalfe then those degenerat ones and if this Councell be not to be alledged for the corruptions then how cometh yt that Volufianus in the year â—65 a bishop off a corrupter estate whose masse is grosser then that off this Councel is made so godly a man yt is well knowne that later Councels then this and therefore for the most part corrupter are cited off the godly learned as testimonial traces of the Syncerity in purer times That the elder by this canon willed off the bishop myght preach in his presence is vntrw onely yt is said that with the bishops commaundement he might giue absolution to the penitent which was then as now with vs an other thing from preaching That ther hath bene no time wherin there haue bene moe preaching bishops then now with vs onles all be preachers is vntrw seing an vnpreaching bishop was wonte as M. Cal. proueth to be a moÌ„ster and cried owt on in very corrupt times Yf our bishops be compared with the Popishe in this poincte they may be thowght dutifull but diuers compared with bishops off auncient time may well be accounted domb Considering their often preaching the traces wheroff are to be seen diuersly namely in the Councell off Ments before by me alledged Wherunto serueth M. Hoopers saying that the churche at the beginning had suche bishops as did preache many godly Sermons in les time then our bishops horses be a brideling Yf the rare preaching off some be but Mens faulte and not the offices then our Archbishops whether off synistre fauour or as gyltie them selues play their partes euil Considering that diuers faulte openly in this euen the cheif pointe off their office and haue had for any thing I haue heard good peniworthes off yt Where still appeareth how daungerous yt is to the churche to lay such weight off the churches welfare in one man In the next diuis let the reader
is vnmeet to … own mynisters their Care chism ccclxiiij Hether belongeth the treatise off reaâ—ing the holy scriptures where fyrst ys shewed the vse of reading them in the church ccclxxv That reading off them is not able ordinarily to hould the people from pining ccclxiij Nether can reading of praiers or admynistration off the Sacramentes withowt preaching ccclxiiij That simple readers ordeined for pastors can not properly be called watchmen ccclxxvj That reading ys not preaching ccclxxxvij Against the phrenefie that bare reading ys better then preaching clxxxv That bare reading ys not so good as preaching ccclxxiiij not to the learned them selues ccclxxxiiij much les reading of the homilies cccxciij Which are not meet to be red in the churche openly cccxcij As are not also the Apoctypha ccxcviij especially considering their corruptions page cccc Hether perteineth the iudgement off the churches off vnlearned ministers ccclxiiij The causes off the vnlearned mynistery with vs ccclxiij ccclxv ccclxxj Ordination ORdination doth not belong to the bishop alone cclxxiiij Against the Bishop commaunding to receiue the holie goste in ordeining ccxcij Residence IN the residence off the ministers that off the Pastor is particularly handled 4. Tract page cccxxx Where our reasons are mainteined That it is the institution off God in the ould Test cccxlij In the nue cccxliiij That the calling of the church which ys also the lordes ys to that place onely cccxxxij That he owght to be resideÌ„t that therby greater loue might be wrought cccxiv That hauing better knowledg off the estate off his flock he may better doe all dueties towardes them cccxxxix That with seing the blessing off God he might be stirred to further diligence cccxlv That his flock hauing more famyliaryty might haue easier acces ibid. That he might be 〈◊〉 â—â—mple of life cccxliij Proued also by … oÌ„tinual duty off preaching Whether perteineth that treatise wherein ys shewed that yt ys conuenient yt should alwaies god before the administring of the holie Sacramentes cccxlviij Hether may be referred the comparison of the diligence of the elder Bishops in preaching dcxlvij Whether also refer the vnlawfull power of the bishop towching licences to preach wherby yt is in his will whether he will gyue the pastor leaue to preach or no coÌ„sidering that it is a necessarie dutie of the pastor and the principall cause off his residence cccxlj That he must admonish both the wicked and the godly strengthen both the weak and the strong cccxlj Comfort in temptation cccxlvij Therfore that the bare reading off the scripture is no sufficient supplie in his absence cccxliij Nether his care cccxxxij That the conscience off the pastor and contentement of the people ys no good rule off doing these duties cccxxx Nether belongeth that the pastor owght not to goe here and there to preache where he thincketh good Where ys shewed that God doeth not alwaies call to places where one may doe most good no not in the extraordinary callings muche les in the ordinary cccxxxvj That this going about to preache as yt ys assigned of the Answerer taketh away the difference betwene the pastors calling and the extraordinary functions cccxxxij That those extraordinary callinges doe not make against the pastors residence as yt is assigned off vs cccxxxj cccxxxix That they rather make for yt cccxxxij cccxxxiij cccxxxv That ordinarie deputies are ouerthrown by this residence cccliiij whether may be referred that dlxxxvj of deputies Likewise pluralities of benefices ccclvj Hether refer that absence for some causes and some conditions doe not ouerthrow resideÌ„ce cccliij This ys also proued by comparison of shepardes and watchmen cccxxxvj Where ys shewed how shamefully the answerer abuseth the doctrine off Gods holy election and of final perseuerance of those whiche are once called cccxxxviij Also that by his answer the pastor after he hath admonished them need neuer come to them nor yet leaue any deputie cccxli Likewise off the eie and soule cccxlvij 〈◊〉 yt as ys precious a worke to kepe those gotten as to get otheâ—â—â—ich be in ignorance and more agreable vnto the pastors of … e. The autoritie off Councels and fathers cccxxxiiij cccliiij Ecclesiasticall correction A part off that Ecclesiasticall discipline which standeth in corrections is commaunded is Math. 66. To note onely the errors corruptioÌ„s and shameful falsifyinges of the D. in suche sort as he hath pretended in my book were to make a new book But because there is much void paper I wil gyue the reader an assay onely of those conteined in the treatises which I haÌ„dle in this book And those shal be not off the capital matters betwene vs but off such as are browght to vnderset them quoted according to his own book whereby yt shal appeare that for the defence off this cause he troubleth heauen yt self and in earth ouerthroweth both estates Ciuil and Ecclesiasticall THe vvhole lavv of god generally is abrogated pa. 121. li. 39. The scripture speaketh not one vvord off preaching or baptizing priuately or openly page 89. line 6. The scripture hath not commaunded nether can yt be by necessary collection theroff gathered vvhether vve should receiue the communion clothed or naked page 24. line 21. The scripture hath appointed no discipline for the correcting off suche as shall contemn the hearing off the vvord and coÌ„mon praier page 88 line 47. He matcheth the iudiciall lavves off god gyuen vnto the Ivves vvith the Turckes lavves page 149 line 32. HE alovveth th 〈◊〉 sentence off Cyrill vvhich condemneth the iustice off g … … ishing those by aeternall death vvhich suffered corporâ—â—â—â—ath vnder the lavv page 149. line 48. He matcheth the â—ouâ—â—shing off saithe by consideration off the creatures vvith popishe imagety page 571. line 2. TO maintein the sole election off the bishop he vvould haue the free elections off magistrates in cities and Borovvgh Tovvnes taken avvay page 171. line 49. VVherby he vvill haue the forme of gouernement off the common vvealth framed vnto the form off the church vvheroff notvvithstanding and that most vntrvvly he accuseth me Likevvise that vnder the gospell there is no punishment off the body laid vpon a transgressor but that if he repent so that he may seem vvorthy to haue the punishement vvithdravvn he may finde forgiuenes page 150. line 9. No man vvhat crime soeuer he hath committed is to be secluded from any lavvful vocation if he repeÌ„t And by vocation he meaneth publike office page 146. line 23. The externall gouernement off the church vnder a Christian magistrate must be according to the kinde and form off gouernement vsed in the common vvealth pa. 389. li. 5. vvhich beside the absurditie vtterly ouerthrovveth the liberty vvhich him self pretendeth that the church hath in disposing off yt In the Apostels times yt vvas permitted to all men to preache the vvord off God page 191. li. 16. Beside Pastors there are novv vvith vs Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes page 229. line 6. ALthovvgh there vvere a sufficient nomber off able men to supply the places of the reading ministers yet the reading ministers ovvght to kepe their places still page 485. lin 5. The vvord ys as effectual red as preached Page 569. lin 23. To those vvhich vnderstand the scriptures they are as vvhot and lightsom red as preached page 573. li. 34. publike reading in the church is as solemâ—â— matter as Catechising the youth page 425. lin 43. Yt may be that some men be more aedified 〈◊〉 simple reading off the scriptures â–ª then by sermons paâ—â— â—80 li. 30. To that I say that nether homilies nor Apocrypha are to be compared ether in goodnes vvithin them selues or fruict to the hearers vvith the scripture or reading thereof he ansvvereth that that maketh against sermons as vvel as against homilies and rather against sermons then against them Page 717 li. 52. VVherby he affirmeth that homilies are both better in them selues and more fruiteful to the hearers then sermons
abowt to make men beleue that I haue some thinge that I would not haue men vnderstand And althoughe he confesse he vnderstand it not yet he reprehendeth it and so it commeth to him which S. Iude chargethe the false teachers withe in his tyme that he speaketh euill off that he knoweth not He asketh here for examples and they stick still in his throate vnswalowed and vndigested whiche the admonition gaue him when he hathe ouercome those then let him aske for more examples And wheras he ascribethe as a great absurditie to vs that we make the order off chusinge the minister before the eldershipp and gouernment be established somewhat diuerse from that which is before putting this florishe vppon it that we allowe off all thinges owt off order thoughe against our owne order so it be against common order I will not goo abowte to confute that here or to shew what good cause there is off this diuersitie it being sufficiently declared in that booke whiche togither withe the right forme off gouernment commaunded owt off the worde off god notethe the disorders off our churche onelie I will aske M. D. whether the consecration as it is called off the Archbishops and Bishopps at the first entrie off the Queenes maiestie vvas the same altogither vvithe that vvhiche hathe bene sithens And iff there were a difference betwene that and this then in this great desire off his to stricke he care not how nor after What sorte his strooke is fallen vppon him selffe and vpon those whom he vndertaketh to defend That the wordes off the admonition haue not that sense which is here ascribed vnto yt I haue shewed in the proper place neither will I touche it here althoughe the A. set it twentie tymes before me Yff he haue any thing to saye against that whiche I haue said there it shall be considered Althoughe here the D. was taken eueÌ„ in the verie acte of false coyninge yet he shameth not to denie yt and withe that bloudnes and foreheade that he is readie also to accuse him that taketh him withe the manner He biddeth me peruse more diligentlie the wordes off M. Bullingar I haue perused them and set them downe first in latin and then in Englishe and iff I haue not turned them truelye shew wherin I haue faulted and iff they be truelie turned then I demaunde againe where these wordes be founde in any of those leaues of Bullinger whiche yow quote That they could not teache truelie because they had great liuinges Yow saye they be word for word there shew but the same sense or meaninge that is to saye that this off M. Bullingers that the Anabaptistes said they could not teache the truthe vvhiche had any liuinge is all one withe that whiche yow haue set downe that they can not teache the truthe which haue great liuinges And iff yow can not shew it your falsification remaineth increased withe the open facing of an vntruthe In deede if yow can put owt all men eyes aÌ„d take away froÌ„ vs our senses and all light off grammer and off the knowledge off signification and proprietie off wordes it will not be impossible for yow withe suche confident speaches as yow vse to make vs beleue that all is turned vpside downe and that the earth hangeth ouer our heades and the heauens are vnderneath our feete but yow deceiue your selffe if yow thincke that yovve can beare downe the truthe so or that yow can hide falshoode by adding another vnto yt wherby it is made bigger and more easie to be sene then before The place added owt off M. Zuinglius Ecclesiastes maketh nothing to the saluinge off your falshoode and how farre our men as it pleasethe yow to call them are farre from all suche sayinges I haue before declared Yff yow shew as yow saye that I do giue to litle vnto the magistrate I will confesse my faulte and confesse my felse detter vnto yow for yt As for the cleanelines off my termes which I vse they are not so foule as the thinges wherunto they are applied and the prophet Malachy and S. Paule vsed them in honester matters then these are so that iff the phrase off the Apostles and Prophetes be manerly enoughe there is lesse godlinesse in yow which in me houe thus accused them off inciuilitie Vnto the nexte section pag. 40. I answere not To the 44. sect pag. 41. I graunt the corruptions off the churche of England to be suche that man in absteininge from the pollutions theroff owght not so seuer him selfe from those open assemblies wherein the eternall worde off the Lorde God is preached and the Sacramentes administred althoughe not in that puritie which they owght to be But I saye againe that the name off conuenticles is to light and conteÌ„ptuous for those meetiÌ„ges For here in is to be coÌ„sidered for what cause they departed Which was not for the mis likinge off any thinge which Christ ordeyned but throughe the mislike off that which Antechrist had browght in not as the Anabaptistes did and the D. surmiseth they did for that they iudged them selues pure and others vnpure but that they feared that their presence where suche corruptions were should be allowance or confirmation off them not so muche forthe hatred off the estate off the churche off England as forthe loue that they had to a better nor so muche for the hatred off the Ministers whiche were vniustly set ouer them as for the loue off those which were vnlawfullie by the Bishoppes taken from them Thedorete declareth how the Catholikes which mainteined the faithe of the Nicenc councell throughe affectioÌ„ to their teachers deuided and seuered them selues into seuerall coÌ„paines will the. A. faie that all their meetinges were conuenticles iff he do he speakethe farre otherwise off them then Theodorete and yet that diuision continued 86. yeares And iff this be off no authoritie whith yow yet I would gladlie vnderstande what yow vvill answere to the sentence off M. Caluin which yow haue alleadged your selffe pag. â—1 where he saithe This honor is meete to be giueÌ„ to the vvorde off god and to the Sacramentes that vvhersoeuer vve see the vvorde off God truelie preached and the Sacraments vvithovvt superstition Ministred there vve maye conclude vvithovvt all controuersie the church to be Iff this meeting withe some disorder be the church off god how is it a conuenticle Besides that it ought to haue bene considered off yow whether they continued in that diuision and whether being taught and shewed their error they did obstinatelie perseuer according to whiche circunstance that off Augustine owght to be expounded for not euerie one which departethe for any cause whatsoeuer from that vvhiche is the churche off God by and by is to be accoumpted no membre of the churche For seing that heresie is more heynous then a scisme and yet heresie dothe not cut a man from the churche onlesse he remaine obstinate muche lesse can a scisme cause forthwith
haue answered yt before There is nothinge so easie which is not harde to him that is vnwillinge And therfore the A as Salomons sluggard saith that the Lion whose delighte is in the foreste and in the wildernes is in the highe streat or in the burse that is to saie maketh difficulties wher none is And as this partly cometh of his vnwillingnes so diuers of thes questions if he doo not dissemble come of wante off knowledge not onely of the gouernemente of the churches nowe but off all aunciete tymes For he asketh who shall complaine off the faulte committed in the election to the churches by if the elders to vvhom that care especially apperteineth doo not others owght whō that disorder offendeth Ther needeth no callinge together and therfore no danger off tumulte disorder confusion charges partes takinge runninge vpp and downe losse off time offence quarels yt is enowghe that yt be doone by the eldership off the churches and if were needfull to haue the churches who le consente it might be doone in ordinarie meetinge for the seruice of god without anie of those things which the D. imagineth The churches maie admonishe by their seueral or cōmen letters emōgeste thē But aske me not who shall carie the letter what he shal haue for his paines whether he shal ride or goe a foote whiche yow might as well as those fonde questiōs which you haue moued It is meete the prouinciall Synodes be certeine and standinge as often also as maie be conueniently and it was ordeined as I thinke in one of the Africane Councels that their shoulde be at the leste twoo or three euery yeare So there shall be as spedie prouision off a pastor for the churche in suche cases off difference as now when they be without a pastor six whole monethes For the questions who shall summon the Synodes and in what place they shall be holden they perteine not to this questiō onles the A. will haue no Synodes at all for if he admitte them the sum̄oner and the place which are meete for the assemble generally and for the decidinge off all causes which fall into the consideracion off the Synod are meete also for this cause And where he asketh what if the prince doo not his dutie then yt is as if there vvere no godly magistrate then yt is vvith them as if suche a disorder shoulde happen vnder an vnchristian prince and then the people shall perishe in their sinnes but their bloud shall be required at his hand But still the A. seethe not how hee reasoneth againste hym selfe For if none of the bishoppes off the foresaide parishes none off the elders neither those bishoppes and elders vvhich emongeste the reste and in the name off all are chosen as the flowres oute of the prouince ād sente to the Synode nor the magistrate I saie if none off all thes nor all thes together doo their dutie how shall we thinke that the bishopp vvill doo it And iff hee doo yt in appoinctinge a fitt bishopp for the parishe and the parishe will not admitt him but take one vvhich is vnmeete off their owne choise what remedy hath he when he is forsaken off the magistrate Thus as shortly as I coulde I haue answered this legion off questions and if my answer in speakinge off thinges so commen be tedious take thy selfe good reader vnto the A. which merueileth at them as if they came oute off India Where he saithe I thus appointe the Prince a good office I haue shewed that the scripture appointeth yt and not I and it is the moste honorable office which the Prince can haue to see the churches be kepte in good order nether taketh yt any thinge from the royall estate that he muste obey and serue the lorde And where he saithe by this meanes the Prince muste stande and loke on all this while and in the ende laie to his hande I answer that wheras thes waies off admonition by the churches and Synode are sente before his authoritie yt serueth not onely for the ease off the magistrate whilest that after this sorte oftentimes the difference is ended before it come to him but also agreeth better with the maner off Phisicke which owght to be vsed in such diseases For that vvhich may be conueniently wonne vvith a vvorde shoulde not be gotten by the sworde and that vvhich maye begotten to bee doone with conscience shoulde not be essaied by compulsion Yowr slaunder that wee gyue no more to the cyuill magistrate then the papistes so often repeted is already and god willing shall be more apparante Yt is also a notable and an impudente slaunder that the Magistrate muste onely at the cōmaundemēt of the seniors execute suche lawes as they haue deuised wher as wee holde that if al the bishopes and elders in the realme woulde decree vnlawfull thinges the Prince owght to make them voide ād that he may ād owght to punishe all ecclesiasticall persons which walke disorderly Likewise yt is a fond dreame of surcharginge the Prince with thes matters as thowgh the Princes authoritie necessarily deriued vnto diuers in euery shire for other affaires off gouernment maie not likwise depart also this care vnto them Therfore if yow haue no better exceptiōs then these I am not afraied stil to cōmit my reasons to the iudgement not onely of the godly vvhich rest in authoritie of the word but euen off the wise ād reasonable man which maketh his account of likelihoodes THes highe wordes that he remembreth no learned writer new nor oulde which denieth that there were fewe professors of the gospell in the Apostels times in respecte off those professe nowe what haue they beside a crake And in respecte off the oulde writers yt is absurdly saide For howe coulde they compare the nomber of the professors of our times with those which were in the primitiue churches onles they shoulde prophecie seinge they were dead long before And maketh yt for yow if the newe writers doo not denie this Iff it he no good reason from the scripture negatiuely in those thinges which yt professeth to speake off is it good from other vvriters and frō one parte off them in thinges which they make no profession of ▪ I looked therfore yow shoulde haue browghtesome vvhich by affirming that yow saie mighte if not make it true yet at the leste seeme true I could off yowr chalenge take occasion to bringe all the peregrination off Sainct Paul declared in the Act. Epistles and especially in the 15. Rom. drawen to my hand by which appeareth that he for his parte onely had caused the Gospell to sounde in more then halfe off the worlde I coulde also fetche in Euseb and Ierome which testifie vvhat the other Apostels did for their parte I propounded that which I saide withoute proofe because the thinges are manifestly knowen and suche as can not be denied yow affirme withowte all proofe that in controuersie and wheruppon yowr cause in yowr
iudgement dependeth that no one parte off the worlde no one citie no one the leaste towne receiued the gospell wholy in the Apostles time If I shoulde suffer yow to goe awaie with this greate and vngrounded sainge yet therby can not be concluded that there are more Christians nowe in a parte off Europe then was throwghoute the worlde in the Apostles time But I require proofe of that yow set downe so precisely not onelie because I thinke yow can not warrāt yt by any but also because I haue somewhat to excepte againste yt For yt maie appeare that Samaria did wholy receiue the gospell For beside that yt is recited that vvith one accorde the multitudes gaue heede vnto that Philipp saide S. Luke declaringe in the 10. and 11. verses that all that vvere in Samaria from the litle to the great vvere bewitched vvith the inchaunmentes off Symon addeth in the 12. verse that vvhen they beleued they vvere baptised This hauing relation vnto that vvhich goeth before vvhich is that all were abused by the magycian yt followeth that the whole cytie receyued the gospell Wherunto maie be referred the emulation betwene Ierusalem and Samaria wherby yt came to passe that the gospell thruste oute off Ierusalem was both easelier and more generally receiued in Samaria Lykewise that yt is saide in the 13. verse that euen Simon him selfe off al other moste vntoward beleeued and that in the 14. ver that Samaria had receiued the vvord off God and not many in Samaria as he speaketh off other places where the Gospell was but in parte receiued Yf one excepte that it is not like euery singular person turned at the preaching off Philip I answere that in suche streight signification of all there shall be at this daie founde no kingdome and almoste no citie which hath receiued the gospell But if the whole profession off the gospell be estemed off that which is doone by the bodie and state of the cytie yt seemeth that the wordes off Saincte Luke will beare owte a whole and generall profession at the leaste off the moste parte which yow denie And yf it be trewe that Euseb vvriteth we haue a manifeste testimonie off the whole receiuing off the gospell in the citie off the Edissens which was wonne vnto the Gospell by the preachinge off Thaddeus sente to kinge Agbarus by Thomas the Apostell off vvhom yt is vvritten that he browght all to the knowledge of the gospell and that the vvhole citie of the Edissens hauing at that time giuē her name vnto the profession off Christe so continued vnto the time wherin Eusebius vvrote Where yow vvoulde seeme to saie some great matter when yow add not at Ierusalem yt is asmuche as if yow shoulde say that no towne receiued the gospell because Ierusalem the moste murderinge towne in the whole vvorlde did not vvhose rebellion and for it destruction beinge foretolde off our Sau. Christe muste needes follow For touchinge the Apostles abode there it was not for the hope off any plentifull haruest to be reaped in that cytie But partly for that the Iewes vnto whom they were sente to preache first had their concourse thether from all corners of the worlde partly to fullfill the prophecye off the sounde of the gospell from Syon into all partes of the worlde and thirdly to prepare a readier passage for his heauy iudgementes to come vppon that cytie That also also which yow add that the tenthe parte off the inhabitans off Ephesus Antioche and Rome was not Christian in the Apostles times is onely saide and it is muche for yow to speake so largely off the tenthe not hable to proue the fyueth or thirde And althowghe yt can not be certainly knowen what nomber of beleuers were at thes places yet it maie be by all likelyhood shewed that it is vntrwe especially off the twoo first Of Antioche wee reade that when they which were scattered by persecution moued in Ierusalem preached there the hande off the Lorde vvas vvith them and a great nomber beleuinge turned vnto the lorde And in the 24. verse yt is saide that at the preachinge off Barnabas there vvas a great multitude added vnto the lorde And yet in the 26. verse yt is declared that afterward Barnabas procuringe Saint Paules comminge thether they bothe together abyding there by the space off one whole yeare tavvght a great multitude Here is mention off three great multitudes which at seuerall times were turned vnto the lorde in that citie and how dare yow yet saie that al thes were not the tenth parte Of Ephesus also it is written that the fruicte off S. Paules preaching there by the space of twoo yeares was so greate that the bookes off those which had exercised curiouse and vnlawfull artes vvere bourned in the sight off all men which coulde not be doone without great daunger vnto the church onles the greatest parte off the citie had beleued Which maye yet more appeare for so much as Demetrius the siluersmythe affirmeth that the arte of makinge shrines and Dianas temple vvas in danger to be set at nothinge And as the A. is to narrow in esteming the fruicte of the Apostles preaching accompanied with suche powre off miracles and diuersities off giftes off the holy goste wherby were gathered greater nombers off professors off the gospell then nowe by the symple preaching off the worde so in his accompte off the nomber off professors off the Gospell now he is marueilously lauishe For where are those whole contreis nations and kingdomes which professe Christe If he take in the Papistes to make vp his reckuinge they will not be receiued For wee speake off the churche off Christe and off those which imbrace the gospell and so himselfe had put yt in his answer to the admonition The papistes therfore which pretendinge the name of Christe persequute the gospell are the Synagogue off Sathan and must in this accounte off Christians be shut owte howsoeuer by changing off the professors off the gospell into those which professe Christe yow woulde seeme to winde them in The mixture which was in the Apostels times off professors off the gospell with those which were professed enemies vnto yt beinge yet in those kingdomes yow speake of yow are so farre from shewinge that the multitude off professors off the gospell in Europe is greater now then yt was in then in all Asia Africke and Europe that yow doo not so muche as shewe that the nomber off Christians in Europe yt selfe is nowe greater then in time off the Apostles When it is saide that the whole church assembled for election all men knowe that therby is mente that particular companie off professors off the gospell which dwellinge nighe together make one assemblie and therfore that yow write off the impossibilitie off gathering all the church scattered throwgh out the whole worlde into one place is but a meere daliance Yow saie they mighte well meete withowte confusion in the Apostles times