once or they are spoiled 1. The Non-Conformists though they gather Churches are no seperatists for they will not pronounce any of your Parish-Churches Null which have lawful Ministers not Null by any means but they will make them as void as they can 2. They will not say that your Worship is such as no man may lawfully communicate in We are beholding to you perhaps one or two in a Nation scarce in a Parish by your good will 3. They shall hold that Parish bounds are very convenient they still hold this what ever else they have let slip and none ordinarily but Parishoners to be of the Church but what Church do you mean the old or new none of the Parish if they can help it shall be of the old and as many out of the Parish as they can draw in for ought I perceive shall be of the new 4. They are driven from the Parish-Ministry against their Wills and had rather hold their Ancient stations they will thankfully return when they have leave But must they therefore break ancient bounds and spoil the Parishes to which they would return and after they have taught the people to go astray they are not sure they will return with a whistle 7. they set not up the Church Government of the people over the Pastors but they dissolve the government of the Parochial and Episcopal Pastor and teach the people by their countenancing of seperation to despise and shake of both 8. They desire nothing more than as neighbour Ministers in love to carry on the same work of Christ with us and do nothing less But what of all this therefore they are no seperatists how so because herein they differ in their principles from the old Seperatists what then if they are the same in that very practice that made them Seperatists I am much of the mind still that those that are guilty of sinful seperation are seperatists and that those that voluntarily seperate from a true Church where they may communicate without sin and gather Churches in opppsition thereunto are guilty of a sinful seperation do with your reasons what you will They may perhaps prove that the old Seperatists had some principles about these things worse than the new but under your favour I think if these seperate as they did and think themselves they have not so much to say against our Churches as they of old did their practise of seperation is the worse for this and not a whit the better Now give me leave to bring forth my reason too T is this If a great and real cause of seperation does warrant and justifie it in all mens judgment but your own the lesser the cause of seperation is the worse it is and the more schysmatical and consequently where there is no real cause at all 't is worst of all Therefore I conceive the old Non-Conformists as well as the late Presbyterians first charged those that seperated with the error of the fact viz. Seperation and in the second place upon their reasons given for their seperation from the Nullity of our Churches and Ministery c. they set themselves upon the proofe and defence of them but never took such their false opinions to be of the essence of their Seperations but only as their reasons and excuses for their evil practises of Seperations This ought to be heeded and then what becomes of your lump of reasons seaven of the eight you see are light and weigh very little if the matter against them be weigh'd also But what think you of the other reason the sixt in number truely that hath so great a Smack of the old seperation and self-esteem and admiration of their own way that we threw it away before as worse then none when ever it came to our hands especially in chapter 13. If you suspect us take it into your hand as 't is wash't and rubb'd and presented to you in the best manner the Author can set it forth he saith they prefer their own manner of worshiping God as better than the Liturgy in their opinion no doubt of that and therefore to be chosen when they may choose but who hath given them this liberty and freed their Consciences from the obligation I know not though they may sin unpunisht but they account it not the only acceptable worship but are present with you in spirit as the great Apostle was with the corrupt Corinthians but why only in spirit and not in body I had like to have thought that Communion in spirit in a bad worship had been the more dangerous of the two desiring a part in the prayers of all true Christians in the World and truely no more than need if by such practises they seperate allmost from them all and think to be justifyed by such kind of Reasons But who tasts not the smack of Brownism and Donatism here for what is the meaning of it but that our way of worship is not so good as it should be for certainly theirs â—s no better than it should be yet they must leave ours to enjoy their own as better our way is therefore defective if not Corrupt But wherein is it defective more than yours have not we as many Psalms and Chapters read as many Sacraments Administred as many Sermons preached as you doth not the Parish Minister generally pray before and after Sermon as well as yours and have we not the Common-prayer over and above where is our defect away with these pitiful shews instead of reasonings If we are corrupt in our worship say so if that be the reason of your seperation say so and be Seperatists indeed say plainly 't is a purer worship and reformation that you leave us for But let it be what it will you your self think our way acceptable to God you joine with us in it you perswade others to it so that what defects or corruptions you find in it cannot justifie their seperation from us in your opinion and I see not how you can avoid joining with us in this also and to say they are Schysmaticks for so doing Especially such Non-conformists whose Administrations you suppose as bad as the Liturgy p. 16. But you intimate one difference more for your self alone I suppose betwixt you and the Brownists in another place where you ask whether such gathered Churches would be Schysmatical if the Common prayer were read in them But what is the reading the Common prayer to Seperation from the Church or why cannot you better hear it in the Temple the same mode of worship is no excuse but an aggravation of division and seperation seeing they that use it say they like it and so have no reason from the point of worship to forsake our Communion We have a Demonstration from the Church of Corinth who had all the same Apostolical mode of worship and yet are charged by the Apostle himself with divisions and Schysm Wherefore though we take it kindly that you are moderate
they have hitherto set about this new experiment which it seems renders the case so difficult in your own opinion that I fear you will have cause enough to censure the rashness of their unadvised undertaking of it But now to the Scales wherin we must weigh 1. The Benefits to be hoped 2. The evils to be feared will follow such gathering Churches You pitch upon three great Benefits 1. The pleasing of God when we know it is his will and the profit of mens souls by the most regular manner of discipline and Worship But be sure you know it is his Will you your self make it very difficult to know this even for the Teachers how much more for the people The same Argument will put us upon the Reformation of the State too when we know it is Gods will This we know to be Gods will that we serve God the best we can in our places that we move for a Reformation in a peaceable and regular way that we preserve the unity and Communion of the Church That we obey our Civil and Ecclesiastical Governors these things we know to be Gods will and we know that he is not the God of Confusion but of order in his Churches and what tends to disorder and confusion we know it is not Gods will but how we shall know that it is his will we should reform the Church upon our own heads and therefore Seperate from true Churches and gather Churches in order to better Worship and discipline if so it prove this we know not 2. The second Benefit is the setting up an imitable Example of right Discipline and worship to other Churches i. e. Setting up a Standard with the former Narrative of the grounds of the War But heads severely then woe to them that set up a worse And in your Conscience is not this woe likely to be generall how many hundred years hath our Discipline been exposed to examination and for the substance of it what part can envy it self find fault with this are the short Counsels of our new Reformers likely to mend it besides how will you do that are for Episcopacy you will not regulate that by having none or by making other Bishops I hope As for our Worship I presume the Reformed Liturgy will not take place except in yâ—ur own Congregation and sure that we have already is better than none at all as it is with your brethren of the new Churches 3. Your last benefit is a marvellous one indeed the satisfying the Consciences of honest mistaken people who think it unlawful to communicate with us i. e. we must break the Churches in pieces to feed the mistakes and ill humours of honest people if they are honest remove their mistakes teach them truth and wisdome and peace and duty and perswade them to keep their Station and Communion with us and I doubt not but that yâ—u and they will find this to be the greater benefit of the two at last as well as we You may see there is no good to be done by the practise and you in the next place see what a swarm of mischiefs attend it I shall observe the things you fear your self and indeed they are more in number weight and measure too then the benefits you mentioned 1. This mischief is likely to follow their gathering-Churches as you well observe the exasperating the minds for number and quality considerable and so alienating from their brethren and hindring them 2. Thereby weakning the Protestant Interest in a time which requireth â—ur greatest concord 3. Then setteng of parties against parties and Churches against Churches and turning of Religion into contentions and mutual oppâ—sitions 4. The countenanceing of unlawful Seperations which will all shelter themselves under such examples and the Dividers will not see the different principles on which we go while our practice seemeth to be the same 5. And so it may be injurious to future ages by seeming to give them Presidents for unlawful Seperatiâ—n 6. And it is not the least evil consequent that we shall cherish not only the error of tâ—ose that think worse of the Parish-Worship and Assemblies than there is cause but we shall also accidentally nourish their pride who will think themselves a holier people because they erroniously over-censure the persons and practices of others These are they evil consequents which you wisely forâ—see will follow these new Churches and you cannot I think prudently avoid them but by forbearing that practice and perswading your brethren to do so likewise For you confess when the publique good forbids it as no doubt it now dâ—th p. 22. The Tolerated Ministers must not gather distinct Church-Assemblies but joyn with the publique Churches and help the people by their instructions at other times And not to bâ—y up the people in their weakness which you well observe p. 23. inclineth them to causeless seperations and disâ—unctions But who shall now hold the beam let any hand but your own and I am sure the inconveniences you have mentioned must needs preponderate those shadows of benefit that the practice pretends to 'T is the known and stated judgment of the Church in all Ages that defects yea and many corruptions which you charge us not withal are far more tollerable and not so hazardous to the Church as Seperation by the breach of unity and then what shall we think of the formal and positive Schysm in gatherâ—d Churches The Novatians Audeans and Donatists had all the same pretence of better discipline and worship than the publique therefore they gathered themselves into distinct Churches for reformation and greater purity in Religion but for this they stand recorded for Schysmaticks and Pâ—sts of the Church in the writings of the Fathers and Church-Historiâ—ns You acknowledge our errors are Tollerable else you would not Communicate with us and this is a standing rule in the Church si error est Tolerabilis non â—pâ—râ—et â—erâ— Secessionem If the errors or scandals of the Châ—rch be Tolerable we ought not to leave it and what 's the reason because of the dangerous consequents that have ever followed Seperation and the beauty and Cameron de Schys holiness of unity in Religion Sir I perceive I need not endeavour to quicken your sense of the fearful effâ—cts of seperation and should I begin to speak of them there would be no end God grant we may never feel them and therefore that you and I and every man may do our proper endeavour to prevent and heal them Schysmate luxantur Pareus membra Ecclesiae Membra luxata inepta sunt ad sua muncra obcunda membra luâ—â—ta gravissimo dâ—lore corpus afficiunt P. Mart. Schysm in the Church puts the members out of joynt members out of joynt are unfit fâ—r service and cause great dolours and disquietment to the whole body What sharp contâ—nâ—ions and ruptures in the bowels of the Châ—rch what Wars and desolations in Nations hath Schysm been
the Gospel which Commandement might more hardly be yielded unto than this of our Bishops who are not only content that the Gospel should be preached but are also Preachers of it themselves Lastly the Apostles received not their calling Authority from men nor by the hands of men but immediately from God himself and therefore might not be restrain'd or depos'd by Men whereas we though we exercise a Function whereof God is the Author and are also called of God to it yet are we called and ordained by the hand and Ministry of men and therefore may by men be also deposed and restrained from the exercise of our Ministry These three last objections and answers are taken out of a Book called a grave and modest confutation of the errors of the Sect called Brownists or Seperatists Agreed upon long since by the joint consent of many Ministers then standing out in the cause of Non-Conformity published by Mr. Rathbang 1644. par 2. p. 41 42. 2. They must preach because the people need it the necessities of thousands of Souls require it Yet you ask is the notorious need of many hundred thousand souls no reason is the releiving of many Godly Christians who are cast out of your Communion because they dare not conform no reason But I am still confident you have no reason or no good ones for I believe you have brought out the best you had to make this vapour and for the credit of the Cause for neither these nor their fellows as hath appeared are worth a fig and yea some would tell you they are rotten they have great Worms in them and are only fit to please Children Doe but open these reasons and you will presently find they are deceitful wares and nothing but skin The sense of them is Non-Conformists must preach upon a double reason taken from the people 1. from their numbers 2. From their quality 1. From their numbers Many hundred thousand souls Souls thousand souls hundred thousand souls many hundred thousand souls and all these need notoriously need Non-conformists preaching Here is strength of Argument indeed and is this no reason I am sure his Rhetorick as sweet to some mens palates But I marvail at two things first that this great necessity should be so notorious to none but your selves and that a Christian Government should notoriously be guilty of the blood of so many hundred thousand souls by suffering them to perish for lack of knowledge had another said it I should have answered this is a most notorious slander The second thing I wonder at is how any Conscientious man dare say contrary to plain sence and Fact that this is the Reason necessitating Non-Conformistâ— to preach as they do Seeing in the places worst served we so seldome hear of your new Congregations But as some Mountebanks pretend to cure the head by applications to the feet you have skill to work by a quite contrary method you will cure the feet by tampering with the head In plain English all this is but a blind and a stawking-Horse behind which these fowlers lurck to catch their Game and to draw our best and fattest Partridge into their Net it is Cities Corporations and the Wealthiest parts of the Kingdome where they Tincle their Bells and draw Swarms to their Hives that will yeild most Honey You seem some where p. 74. to tax my Charity or Verity in an intimation tending this way but my particular experience as well as general and not to be controled observation was my Warrant I will trouble you with a pat Instance of two or three Non-Conformists in a place where I am well acquainted and I count them not a whit the lesse honest for their plain dealing in the point One of them that hath a Licence to preach in a Country House near the place where he lives told me himself that unless he should know what they would pay him he would not preach among them and I suppose they differed upon that point for he is gon off and joyned himself with a Brother of another Church Another licenc'd to preach in his own Parish where he rents a Farm told the Minister of that Parish that he would loose 50. pound by his Farm that he might remove and place himself in a Corporation that is indeed very well furnisht with Ministers and better without his Company A third also licenced to preach in his own House yet one Lords day in three as I am informed by a pretty good hand rides twelve miles to exercise his gifts in a great Town not meanly provided with publique preachers And all these three within eight miles one of another and these are plain and honest men and doubtless speak their own and their Brethrens minds for by this foot you may guess at Hercules I cannot forbear hereupon to commend the wit of that excellent man who said smartly ingenuously some years agon I doubt they see their Condition would be woful indeed if they preacht the Gospel there in the Country Cures that are worst served and therefore they should have added two words to the Apostles speech and said Woe be to us if we preach not the Gospel in London or in Bristol or in Exon or in Plymouth Totnes or Dartmouth There is little to be got by preaching it to the poor Country folk Those aâ—â— barren places to sow the seed in and will bring foâ—â—h small profit to themselves and so they would do well to say in plain English and I should think them honester men if they did Necessity is laid upon us to tell you the Truth we must preach to get a living Many such Tricks there are you know to be done by Numbers but when they are one discovered they are as silâ—y as this 2. But their quality may be considerabâ— that 's the other reason of necessity For yâ— Ask is the releiving of many Godly Christians who are cast out of your Communion because they dare not conform no Reason Sr will you say in earnest that the Non-Conformist should countenance such in their Seperation and harden them in their sin and that a necessity lies upon them to do so though you your self believe that these people may not only lawfully but that it is best for them to Communicate with the Parishes if their Scruples and mistakes were removed However the Cheat here will be too manifest if we open this one box who are those that are thus to be releived You canmean no other but such as did not Communicate with us before the Indulgence for such as then did may do so still and not need your Charity Then those that are to be Releived must be either Independents or Anabaptists or Quakers or those that go under the Name oâ— Presbyterians Now I think you your self would not head any of the three Vid. p. 14. former of these Sects or if you or any of your brethren would stoop so low how would they in pride trample upon
there be let him come forth to own it that advised with his Parish-Minister about his departure or was so civil to take his leave much less shew'd him any just occasion of his so sudden resolution or what gave him the offence in the person or Administration of his pastor or in the Worship and Communion or Conversation of his fellow Members and moved or disposed him thereunto before he did Actually seperate Much less did he exercise any patience or long-suffering in order to his own Satisfaction or the Reformation of the Church of which he was a member in what he thought amiss If such separation is not Rash and sudden if it fail not in the due manner of proceeding shew your Reason or else bear the Censure and charge of Schysm from all sound and judicious Casuists let the pretence or cause otherwise be never so great and just Indeed they generally gave up themselves with all manner of dilligence to obtain their Licenses to contrive their Houses to appoint their meetings conspiring in this as appears by their practice that they would hold their Assemblies at the same hour with the parochial the directest method they could imagine to be opposite to us yet not so well considering what might be the consequences as one of the soberest of their Ministers complained who observed it too late which had they had patience and wisdome first to have consulted my Answerer might in all likelyhood in many places at least have been happily prevented 2. But Alas this is not the Burthen of Ephraim their separation fails in the foundation and grounds of it it is not accountable upon any terms of Charity Justice or Christian sobriety strictly the Churches from which they seperate hath not given them any such offence or cause of offence sufficient to justifie their seperation either in truth or in the judgment of any but themselves much less the old Non-Conformists and Presbytâ—rians as will soon appear in full light Our Answerer hath set you a hard Game to play here for you must shew us such reason why you leave us as will excuse you from seperation and yet justifie your gathered Churches Which upon the suppositions already proved that our Churches are true Churches that you are or ought to be members of them and to continue in Communion with them while you live in them if we have given you no just occasion to discontinue it seems to be a plain contradiction and your New Churches are no better than stated seperations But laying aside all little insignificant Artifices and modern evasions the question in short is this Whether we can have any just plea for seperation from any Church of which we are members while we may communicate with it without communion in sin The negative hath appeared all set parties have subscribed the negative and hardly any but your selves ever question'd it if yet you do so The Protestants by the Papists the Brownists by the Puritans the Anabaptist Independent and Interpendent by the Presbyterian are all charged with Shysm and all without scruple put their controversies to this Issue if you that charge us with Schysm can prove that we may hold Communion with you without sinning we acknowledge the charge therefore they allwaies defend their seperation by chargeing sin upon their Communion from whom they separated also On the other hand they endeavoured to make the charge of Schysm upon those that seperated by answering the objections of Sin against their several Communions so that on all sides this sense of Schysm passed uncontrolled and was never I think disputed or doubted before if it be so now and Dr. Ames hath put it into the very Definition of Schysm and makes it his great Rule by which he answers the Cases about it But to prevent mistakes I must speak with Caution by discontinuing Communion I do not mean only a not having Actual Communion with the Church for that may be involuntary as when a man is excommunicated or necessitated by sickness or if you will have it added by too great a multitude of members yea it may chance to be voluntary yet not properly Schysm when we do not attend Gods worship through neglect of our Duty and a prophane principle but of these we speak not here By discontinuing our Communion I mean a denying or refusing Communion with our own Church upon any dislike or distaste of its Worship or Minister or Members Now whether this distaste arise from fear of Communicating in sin where there is no just cause of or without such fear such refusing or denying Communion is Schysm yea as Ames adviseth if there be real evil in some part of Communion in a true Church to depart farther from it then that evil requires is Schysm So when there is no real or pretended sinfulness in the Communion of our Church and yet we take dislike and seperate and totally seperate and gather our selves into new Congregations in opposition thereunto who dare say this is no Schysm 'T is not worth the question though you some where make it whether it be Schysm to remove our dwelling from one Parish to another Our civil necessities may force us to it we hold no such Matrimony between Pastor and People as some talk of but upon fair occasion either may remove All Parishes are in Communion together and are of the general Constitution of the Church of England by such a removal you become a member of another Parish Church and are bound by the Laws of the Land and by the Rule of cohabitation of membership to hold Communion with the Church in which you live you have still real Communion with the former Church not only in the substance but mode of its Worship and its very Constitution but by removing to these New Churches you do not you cannot cease to be of a Parish at all nor of a Parochial Church without Schysm from the Church in which yoâ— live and from all the Parochial Churches in England and from the Church of England it self I mean unless you can prove that something is required in our way of Worship that you cannot joyn in without sinning The question is to bring the point home what sin is to be found in our Worship wherein the people that joyn with us must needs Communicate If none can be found we must write Schysm upon your seperation and we cannot help it Use no delatory pleas blind us not with wide discourses about what is fit to be imposed in order to peace c. and about the duty of Superiors that concern you not or about the hard conditions of Conformity upon Ministers as such we are speaking of Lay-Communion wherein all that are not in the place of Ministers are to look to their Duty And if there be any thing required of them in order to their Communion with us that is indeed sinful say what is it and speak to the point In this Case Sir be Judge your self you expresly