probable are the wicked till then thrown into the sorest punishment And so far the condition of both may be said to be a middle state betwixt what it is now on earth and what it will be after the day of Judgment But in this state we know of nothing to be done either by the persons themselves or by any on earth for them to mend their condition The souls of the righteous are in the hand of the Lord in rest and peace chearfully expecting the perfection of their glory and joy and the condition of the wicked may seem most like that of the faln Angels as it 's described Jude v. 6. in everlasting chains of darkness reserved to the Judgment of the great day And betwixt these already is the great gulf fixt that there is no passing from one to the other to find or give relief Much less can the prayers or alms of surviving friends afford any refreshment to miserable souls And some there are even of the Church of Rome so modest and ingenuous that they have discoursed much at this rate concerning the middle state of souls departed and have exprest their opinion that it was not so much the prayers said for the dead that gave them relief as the charitable temper they died in when they left money for pious uses But for the freedom such Writers have taken both they and their writings have been severely censured and condemned at Rome L. What makes them so zealous in the case T. You need not go far for a reason when you consider how much gain is hereby brought in to the Crafts masters what vast summs of money are given to the Church by dying men frightned with the dreadful stories of Purgatory What will they not then give for a speedy deliverancé thence And this they are taught not to hope for without good store of Masses for which the Priests that say them expect to be well paid So that there is a great deal of truth in that common blunt saying that Purgatory-fire keeps the Popes Kitchin warm No wonder then if they are so angry with those that go about to quench it This Doctrine moreover it is that chiefly keeps up the market for Indulgences which whatever they do now were heretofore wont to bring in vast treasures to the Popes Coffers by several arts which he used in putting them off L. On what pretence do they give out these Indulgences T. Sell them you should rather have said for so they have used to do and did it at such a shameful rate in Germany as gave the first occasion for the Reformation there But to answer your question their pretence is that there is a vast treasure of merits in the Church and that not only of Christ's but of the Saints too who have done and suffered much more than was necessary for themselves so that they can spare somewhat for others And this treasure you must know is in the Popes keeping who can by the fulness of his power dispense it as he pleases and apply it to particular persons in what measure and upon what terms he thinks fit And the benefit of these is said to be the freeing them from temporary punishments due for faults already pardoned and this freedom they are to enjoy not only upon earth in being eased of long penances but also in Purgatory from whence they shall sooner be delivered by virtue of these Indulgences L. I do not well understand how there is a punishment still due after the fault 's pardoned T. Nor any body else I think for a fault is then said to be pardoned when the punishment is remitted Indeed God may so far pardon a Penitent as not to punish him with eternal misery and yet he may inflict bodily punishments in this life as a malefactor may have a pardon for his life and yet may be burnt in the hand or the like but so far as a man is punished so far he was not pardoned L. Do not these Indulgences then free men from bodily punishments which otherwise they must undergo T. That indeed would be somewhat if they could free men from Gout and Stone and all such diseases as do either naturally flow from their vices or are inflicted by God as punishments for them then I say a man would not grudg to purchase Indulgences at a dear rate for besides his ease and health it might save all the money spent upon Physicians But this alas the great Champions for Indulgences dare not pretend to and full easily they might be confuted if they did Wherefore Bellarmine confesses they do not free men from natural evils diseases or the like which are the fruits of sin nor yet from such fines and penalties as may in Courts be inflicted for their offences What then is left besides the imaginary pains of Purgatory But by the little force their Indulgences have in this world a man has cause to suspect they will be no more effectual in the other But the best on 't is no body comes thence to tell tales how they are cheated and so the trade goes on smoothly And were it mony only that the poor people are cheated of by these vile arts the matter were not much but alas we have great cause to fear that many are hereby deluded to the loss of their immortal souls of more value than the whole world instead of a temporary Purgatory from which they hoped to be secured at easier rates than a timely repentance and thorough reformation how many fall into that eternal misery which is threatned to the wicked and impenitent from whence no money nor Masses no prayers nor tears can ever release them L. Yet they say we Protestants are strangely unkind to our friends departed that we will not so much as put up a prayer to God for them but seem quite to neglect and forget them T. They have little reason to accuse us for this since of all the instances of charity any where recommended in Scripture we never find this mentioned that we should pray for our friends after they are dead Why then should we pretend to such a piece of charity as neither God hath commanded nor any the most holy charitable persons of old ever practised If it were fit for us to give way to our own fancies why might it not look like a piece of charity to pray for those in Hell that their pains may be mitigated or shortned But have we any warrant from God so to do Or dare Papists themselves presume to do it Such as these we look on out of the reach of prayers And for those in Heaven they surely are past the need of them farther than what was before mentioned that whilst we pray for the coming of Christ we therein comprehend the consummation of their felicity How little reason then have we to pray for our friends departed The greatest kindness that I know we can shew them is to preserve a grateful remembrance of their
infallible and the Mistress of all other Churches that there is a Purgatory with the rest of those Doctrines which they embrace and we reject Nay these opinions with their consequences rather tend to make men much worse than otherwise they would have been Some of them make them more loose and careless in the leading of their lives and some make them most cruel and uncharitable to such as differ from them yea render them many times disobedient to their rulers and furious disturbers of the peace by Plots and Treasons and Rebellions for the advancing of their cause True Christianity puts men upon no such courses but these are the natural effects of Popery as has often been verified by sad experience L. I understand you well and am fully perswaded that we in our Church do embrace all those Christian Doctrines that tend to the promoting of good life and do retain none that are an hindrance to it But what say you to their objections against Calvin and Luther who as my Author says were very wicked men and strange stories he tells of them out of Bolsec and other Writers of their Church T. To this I answer that it sufficiently appears how bad their cause is which must be maintain'd by the most odious lies and forgeries For there are no Books in the world less to be credited than those which their Monks and Priests have written in praise of those they have Canonized for Saints and in dispraise of such as they have damned for Hereticks making the former somewhat more than Angels and the latter worse than Devils But as to Calvin and Luther some of the more ingenuous even of their own Church have given a fairer character of them than their lying Bolsec and such Authors And had they but been as zealous for Popery as they were against it no doubt but they had past amongst them for great Saints with all their faults But in the mean time were they really as bad as they falsely accuse them to be yet are we little or nothing concerned herein since they were not the Reformers of our Church Nor yet if they had is it the goodness of this or that person which we are obliged to defend but the truth of our Doctrine and the lawfulness and necessity of our Reformation Thus they make a great out-cry against Henry the Eighth what a bad man he was and what ill designs he had in throwing off the Popes Supremacy which was the most he did toward the Reformation but let his designs be what they would the thing it self was justifiable and good VVhat if a bad Emperor upon carnal designs should have supprest Heathenism and promoted Christianity as Constantine himself was accused by some is this any dishonour to the Christian Religion But little cause have Papists of all men to talk of ill instruments whilst they may remember from what a Trayterous Murderer and Usurper the Pope first received the title of Universal Bishop for which he had been long quarrelling with the Bishop of Constantinople And however they slander Calvin and Luther we might with much more reason and truth object what kind of creatures multitudes of their Popes have been whom they own as Heads of their Church even such monsters of men for all manner of impiety filthiness and cruelty as the world hath scarce ever heard of the like And this we have from those of their own Church who have written their Lives and their greatest Champions such as Bellarmine and Baronius cannot deny it L. But it s further objected against Calvin and Luther and the first Reformers that they never wrought miracles to shew they had a commission from God T. Our first Reformers never pretended to bring in any new Religion only they cast out Popish Innovations which had corrupted and defaced it and for this they needed no extraordinary commission from heaven nor any miracles to warrant the same For they preached no other but the same old Religion which was taught by Christ and his Apostles and was abundantly confirmed by the miracles which they wrought long ago And with us the Reformation was begun and carried on in a just and regular manner by our Rulers in Church and State who had full authority to make the same even as the Kings and High-Priests of old had to reform any abuses and corruptions which at any time were crept into the Iewish Church And as these needed no new commission from Heaven no new miracles to authorize them to rectifie disorders and reform the Church according to the rules of Moses's Law no more did our Reformers need them for the removing of those errors and superstitions which had by degrees been brought in contrary to our Saviours Gospel L. I see no reason indeed why miracles should be expected from them who only cast out new inventions and keep fast to the old Christian Religion which hath already been confirmed by so many and great miracles But yet my Author says that in their Church they have had miracles wrought in all ages such as curing the blind and deaf raising the dead and casting out of Devils which he accounts to make mightily for the honour of their Saints and of the Church to which they belong T. In the Primitive times indeed such miracles were wrought for proving of the Christian Doctrine that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and all that he taught most certainly true and this Doctrine so confirmed is the Religion which we at this day do openly profess in our Church But then I utterly deny that ever such miracles were wrought to prove the truth of Popish Doctrins properly so called as of Transubstantiation Pargatory Invocation of Saints c. for these were never taught by Christ or his Apostles and therefore could not receive confirmation from the miracles of their working As to any that are pretended to be done in the Church of Rome for the attesting of these they are meer cheats and forgeries or lying wonders agreeable to the nature of those false Doctrines which they are designed to confirm And though your Author talks of healing the sick raising the dead c. I can hear of no such thing done by any of them amongst us whatever they may pretend to in Popish Countries where it s an easie matter for cunning Priests to impose upon credulous people But were indeed any such miracles wrought for the proof of Popish Doctrines one would think they should be done amongst those they call Hereticks who stand in need of such arguments for their conviction rather than amongst their own people who need them not Great Stories they often tell of their casting out of Devils and for this knack are their Priests mightily magnified by their deluded followers and prefer'd before the Ministers of our Church who pretend to no such matter But that this is a gross cheat seems plain enough from hence that what their Priests pretend to in this kind for all that ever I could
their not discerning the Lords body vers 29. And to receive these Holy Elements without reverence thankfulness and true devotion was to be guilty of dishonouring the Body and Blood of Christ which were here represented and exhibited to Believers But all this while we have no reason hence to fancy that the natural substance of Christ's Body and Blood are present in the Sacrament Had the Apostle thought of any such thing surely he would have exprest himself in another manner and have said somewhat to explain so Mysterious a Doctrine And had he and his Brethren taught the same as the Church of Rome now does surely the unbelieving Iews or Gentiles would have poured forth their Objections against it whereas we hear not a word of that nature neither in the Apostles Days or the next Ages after In all the Apologies that the first Christian Writers set forth in defence of our Religion we find nothing said in vindication of any such Opinion as this whilst they give large Answers to many other Objections for which there was nothing like so good a pretence Nor do we read of any controversy amongst Christians themselves about this matter for many Ages whereas in latter times since this Opinion was first broached there have been many Volumes written for and against it L. But they pretend that this was the Ancient Opinion of the Fathers and first Christians T. Pretend it they do but as in other points of Controversy betwixt them and us so here it is a very vain and false pretence For we read nothing of it in the old Creeds or the Canons of General Councils or in the genuine works of any Father for many hundred years after our Saviour L. Yet they alledge that the Fathers commonly stile the Holy Elements the Body and Blood of Christ and will frequently quote places to that purpose T. No doubt but they may easily do that though without any advantage to their Cause since its plain enough in what sense those expressions are to be understood from other places of the same Fathers For they themselves do sometimes tell us that Christ's Words of eating his Flesh and drinking his Blood are to be taken Spiritually that in the Communion there is a commemoration of his Death and a representation of his Body and Blood yea sometimes they expresly call the Bread and Wine the Figures thereof Now these and such like sayings cannot possibly be reconciled with the Popish opinion of Transubstantiation Therefore when they speak of Christ's Body and Blood in the Sacrament we may most reasonably understand them in the very same sense that I have told you our Church frequently uses the like expressions So do our Writers very commonly in their Books of devotion and in practical discourses on the Communion speak at the same rate whilst they intend nothing more but that these Holy Elements are made Christ's Body and Blood Mystically and Spiritually But how far this opinion of Transubstantiation is from being an Ancient Doctrine of the Christian Church hath been made sufficiently evident amongst many others by the Learned Bishop Cozens who in his History of it gives us an account about what time it was first publickly taught what opposition was then made to it by sundry Learned men of that Age and how long it was before it could be established by any Council even amongst Papists themselves or could obtain to be the general avowed Doctrine of their Church Nay to this very day their chief Writers are strangely divided in the accounts they give of it setting their Wits upon the rack to explain and defend it some this way and some that having so very little help from Holy Scripture in the Case as some of them are so ingenuous as to acknowledg L. Methinks its strange that they should with so much eagerness maintain and with so much violence impose a Doctrine which to me seems impossible to be understood or firmly believed T. Strange it is and very unreasonable but yet some account may be given of it for beside that natural pride which inclines men to defend the opinion which they have once espoused especially a Church which boasts of Infallibility besides this I say we may consider how mightily the admitting of this opinion makes for the Honour of the Priest who can thus with four words speaking work one of the most wonderful Miracles that ever was known in the World indeed such a one as can neither be seen felt nor understood But the people who can be perswaded to believe it must needs have a mighty veneration for the Priest that works it and be almost ready to make a god of him who can so easily make a god for them by turning the Bread into the very person of our Saviour his Divinity and Humanity whom therefore they worship and adore as God though after that they eat him L. This may seem indeed to make for the Honour of the Priest that he can work such wonders but surely it makes little for the honour either of Priest or people to be guilty of such false and absurd opinions and of such corrupt practices which are the natural consequence of them For are they not guilty of Idolatry in Worshipping the Bread as God though I know they say there is no Bread there after Consecration pray let me know your judgement because I find my Author endeavouring to vindicate their Church from this heavy censure T. I do not see how they can possibly excuse themselves from this charge if the Bread still remains Bread in its natural substance as we may most certainly conclude it does from what hath been alledged both from Scripture Reason and our Senses Wherefore whilst they worship that for God which is not God giving to the creature what is due alone to the Creator they may justly be reckoned guilty of Idolatry L. But will it not serve to excuse them that they worship that which they take to be God and therefore do design and direct their Worship to God and not to the Bread which they believe not to be there after Consecration though they see it before them T. What allowances it may please our good God to make for the ignorance and mistakes of honest well-meaning men I still say it doth not beseem us to determine But as to the thing it self for my own part I cannot see how this pretence will any more excuse a Papist from Idolatry than it would excuse an Heathen for his Worship of the Sun that he did verily believe the Sun to be God or that God did in some extraordinary manner dwell in the Sun the substance of it being turned into God whilst only the accidents of Light and Heat and the like do still remain Nay one would think the Heathen in some respect more excusable of the two since the Sun looks much liker a God than does a Wafer or bit of Bread But ' there is no great need of disputing against them in this
he hath no need of us nor receives any benefit from us when we have done all that was required we are to account our selves unprofitable servants that we have nothing but what we received from him that though death be properly the wages of sin yet eternal life is the free gift of God through Iesus Christ c. But yet on the other hand considering the gracious promise which God hath made to all true believers that continue patient in well-doing on this account we may safely grant that an holy life shall be most richly rewarded with everlasting happiness and good men in a large and more modest sense of the word may be said to deserve it in that they have by Gods grace performed the condition on which it was promised In this sense the Ancients commonly used the words merit and reward So in holy Scripture we read of a recompence of reward though such a one as is of grace not strict debt and true Christians are said to be worthy of this happiness Rev. 3. 4. and to have a right to enter into life that is according to the tenour of Gods gracious Covenant Revel 22. 14. Wherefore if they of the Romish Church will be satisfied with such concessions as these as perhaps the more modest of them will there need be no contention about these matters And some very learned and judicious Writers of our own and other Reformed Churches when they have come to state the controversie clearly and impartially have freely acknowleded that the difference betwixt us in t ese and some other points is not so great as some hot Disputants on both sides would make it However I shall not further enlarge on them for it is not my business to display all the Errors of the Roman Church nor indeed is it in my power much less do I desire to aggravate things and make any of their opinions seem worse than really they are But my design all along hath been to give you such a true and just account of things as might fix you in communion with the Church of England and preserve you from any inclination or thought of going over to Rome and that in brief for such plain reasons as these even because our Church is a sound part of the Catholick Church and has full authority over you by the Laws of God and the Land and since here all things necessary to Salvation may be enjoy'd and nothing is required that may be an hindrance to it Whereas on the other hand the Church of Rome has no jurisdiction over us in England nor ought to have and does also propose most unjust terms of Communion with which you cannot comply without apparent hazard of your Salvation since she requires all her members to embrace and profess gross Errors for Divine Truths and enjoyns the doing of many things as necessary duties which are very heinous sins against Gods express commands L. These reasons are indeed both plain and weighty such that I can easily understand and do feel their strength and by Gods assistance shall ever remain under the power of them T. I hope you will so And since you are so sensible of their truth and force give me leave before we part to beseech you always so to keep up the sense of them that you may thereby be secured from all attempts that may be made upon you not only by those of the Church of Rome but by such as are commonly called Protestant Dissenters though indeed by their separating principles and practices I think they dissent from all Protestant Churches whatever Let none of these then ever draw you into the way of separation from the Church of England under pretence of bringing you into purer societies where the word is more powerfully preached and Sacraments more purely administred L. I hope I shall never be wrought upon by such pretences as these for whilst in our Church we enjoy all things needful to Salvation and have nothing sinful imposed upon us surely it ought to be esteemed a very pure and sound Church in whose communion I ought to remain Nor can I see the least reason why I should disobey my Superiours and break the peace of this Church and separate from it to seek after I know not what greater purity in this corner or that T. Keep you to this and you will not easily be shaken For let Papists or Separatists object what they please most certain it is that in our Church the Gospel of Christ is most plainly and powerfully preached the holy Sacraments purely administred and the Worship of Almighty God gravely and solemnly performed our Prayers and Praises offered up to the true God in the name of Jesus Christ framed according to the will of God revealed in his Word and exprest in our own Tongue that so all the people may easily understand them be duly affected with them and heartily say Amen to them What then should hinder any good Christian from joyning with a Church so well constituted in a constant reverent attendance upon the Word Prayers and Sacraments which may with so much freedom and lawfulness here be enjoyed L. I am so far from knowing any reason to the contrary that I think we have cause to embrace this priviledg with great readiness and joy and with most hearty thankfulness to Almighty God for his singular mercy in affording us these blessed advantages above most other Nations in the world T. And yet you shall often hear some people either ignorantly or maliciously crying out of Popery Superstition Will-worship and I know not what which ought not to move you in the least L. There 's no reason to be moved with bare noise and ill words whilst I know nothing amongst us that deserves them T. It 's plain there is not for when you come to examine the matter their greatest objections against us are that we have Forms of Prayer there were more reason to object it as a fault if we had none that we kneel at the Communion and why may we not as well as at our Prayers That the Minister sometimes wears a Surplice why not as well as a Gown That he makes a transient sign of the Cross over the Childs forehead after Baptism and what hurt is in doing it more than in speaking the words of listing him under the banner of a Crucified Saviour Are not these very weighty matters to make such noise and disturbance about L. I have heard these things talked against by some people but never met with any solid argument to prove them sinful T. No nor I am confident ever will Very easie it were to answer the common objections against them and to shew the lawfulness of them whilst there is nothing to be found in Gods Word to the contrary and where there is no law there 's no transgression But something of this nature I have done otherwhere and you may find many excellent Discourses to this purpose written by the Divines of