Properly in them selves Accidentally they may be when they growe so strong that they paine and grieve the Soule These 2. later kinds of the Soules Suffering you acknowledg to have ben in Christ the 1. kinde you vtterly deny â—â—g 5. 6. 16 〈◊〉 253. â— 255. 335 Now I affirme that Christ tasted also the 1st kinde For how could the Proper and principall Humane Suffering be not in him â—â—â—br 2.10 a Man made of God to * Suffer for all our Sinnes So this in a maner is the point of our CoÌ„troversie And verily how you can deny the same by the Scripture yet acknowledging withall a true and perfit Humaine Soule in Christ I cannot see Namely seeing iust occasion heereof was giuen him from God as afterward shall further appeare You * pa. 248. seeme to sticke at those termes which I vse The Soules proper and immediat suffering you call them “ pa. 257. 336. vnsalted and vnsetled But any may see how easy they are to bee vnderstood and also that wee must in this quaestion necessarily thus distinguish the same from that which is by sympathy is comon to vs with other creatures Thirdly wee must also note that God himselfe is alwayes and evermore the principall and proper punisher then when the Soule suffereth paines after the first maner that is in her proper and immediat faculty of suffering And that is alwayes immediatly for sinne also not for any other cause at all Gods owne almighty power armed with iustice in burning wrath thus punisheth sinne somtime more somtime lesse when and how it pleaseth him Fourthly God himself therfore was thus the principall and only proper Punisher of Christ as hee sustayned the punishment of our sinnes The Divells and wicked men his Persecutours did their parts also indeed for other ends but yet they were all as Instruments only vsed by God vnto his owne end namely that Christ might pay heereby a iust price and full satisfaction for our sinnes It was then the Almighty and most iust God himselfe in his severe wrath against our sin that principally properly inflicted on Christ the paines and punishments which he as our Surety suffered for the paying of our Ransom As it is written “ Isa 53. â— The Lord laid vpon him the punishment of vs all Whatsoever you have against this afterward we shall consider it in due place Fiftly we meane not that in God was is or can be any †As youâ— serve wâ— pag. 24â— perturbatioÌ„ at all and therefore consequently no Wrath nor Hatred as is in vs. But because Wee painfully afflict others with whom commonly wee are Angry and we discerne somtime and see paines inflicted on men by God therefore we say he sheweth his anger and wrath vpon them whom hee punisheth Nevertheles wee must note especially that to suffer as the Godly doe Chastisements and corrections is not to suffer or feele Gods Wrath nor indeed the pumishment of sinne except it bee in a very vnproper speach To suffer the true punishment satisfaction proper payment wages of sinne only that is to suffer properly and truly the Wrath and Curse of God Now then seeing the paines which Christ for vs did feele were indeed properly the Punishment and Paiment and vengeance for sinn such as the Godly do in no wise suffer Christ only having wholly suffered that for vs all Therefore indeed his sufferings proceeded from Gods proper wrath and were the true effects of Gods meere Iustice bent to take recompence on him for out offences the Godly never suffering any thing at all in such respect Sixt These paines which Christ suffered as the proper Punishment and Price of sinne and inflicted on him even by Gods own hand did not make smart and anguish only in his flesh or onely in the sensitive part of the Soule by mutuall coniuction sympathy with the body but of necessity must also be deepely conceaved felt in the vnderstanding and Mind of Christ Now how deepe this was as we neither do nor can precisely affirme so we are well assured that the sense of paine was not lessened nor abated in Christ needlesly Hee suffered doubtles according as sinne deserved in every point except only in such respects as were flatly impossible For the better vnderstanding whereof wee are heere to note another principalll distinction â—â—â—fering of â—aines for sin 〈◊〉 fold â—or sinne inâ—â—eâ—ent and â—â—puted that there are 3. divers and severall sortes of suffering paines directly for sinne 1. As the wicked and damned do that is by suffering the proper wrath of God truly punishing in them that is properly in their Soules aswell as in their Bodies their sinnes in whom togeather with their paines there is also inherent sinne abiding and imputed the cause of all their punishments with the the adiuncts and consequents thereof desperation induration blaspheming reiection malediction hatred and finall dereliction with such like These are certain proper and right conditions of the reprobat heere of the damned in Hell â—â—r sinne inâ—â—â—ent but 〈◊〉 imputed which Christ never tasted 2. The godly in this world do suffer paines for their sinnes But these whatsoever they be yea though death it selfe are improperly called Punishments as was before noted â—â—ch 12.5 â— 7 8 9 10 â— they are * Chastisements of sinne Yea they are partly remembrances to cause repentance of sinne past presently inherent partly Chastisements to humble vs and to mortifie sinne in vs more and more hereafter And thus they are in no sort inflicted on vs as very Curses by Gods Wrath and Iustice properly so called but properly by Gods Holynes and Love as after wee shall further see These are the ordinary wayes of suffering for sinne but nothing appertayning to Christ neither 3. 3 Suffering sinne not haerent yet impuâ—â—â— There is another peculiar and extraordinary way belonging onely to Christ according to which Christ suffered for sinne distinct and greatly differing from both the former and yet in some speciall points agreeing with both 1. Christ suffered for sinne being sinles indeed How Châ—st sufferings those of thâ— Godly dâ—gree Hoâ— they diffeâ—â— as the Godly also are sinles “ Rom. 4. by imputation Againe their sufferings are temporary and in this life only such also were his But Christes sufferings were exceeding much differing from ours 1 in that his sufferings were for our sinnes now made his by Gods accoumpt and ours are for our owne Also his were the true and proper Punishment or iust vengeance of God for sinne ours onely Chastisements and remembrances which belonged nothing at all to him His the true effects of Gods severe and iust Wrath properly taken ours are from his iustice wrath improperly so called Touching the Reprobats and damned How the sufâ—â—rings of Châ—â—â—â— and of thâ—â— Damned 〈◊〉 differ 1. their sufferings are for sinnes inhaerent Christes were for sinnes only imputed So that Gods Anger
They are 6. in number The 1. is that when Christ on the Crosse cryed out My God my God why hast thou forsaken me by this word me he should meane His Church For the which you have no reason in the world but the bare names of Austin Leo Athanasius Shew me their reasons See before â—ag 28.29 presse not their authorities Which your selfe also reiecteth when you list though when you list againe they must be your best yea your only reason But even these Fathers if they be vnderstood Pag 79. as * before I have shewed Cyprians meaning to be that Christ spake these wordes as doing now the part of the Suretie of his Church and as standing in the case of his Children whom now by his suffering paines he saved then they agree iust with our minde herein For then doubtles it was for the infinite paines which now he felt in our steed that he so cryed out My God my God why hast thou forsaken me Otherwise if you thinke they meant that Christ spake this by some strange Metonimy naming him selfe but meaning his Church that can have no good sense For how can it be that we were forsaken of God when Christ was on the Crosse Nay even there and then were we “ Act. 20 purchased vnto God not forsaken by God Againe your owne rule is which I like well that no Figure is to bee admitted in Scripture where there is no ill nor hurtfull sense following literally But I have shewed a little before a plaine easie and Christian sense heereof taking it literally that me signifieth Christes owne person namely his Manhood bearing nowe as our Suretie intollerable paines inflicted by Gods wrath vpon him and so he may mourne sorrowe that he was forsaken that is left in vnmeasurable paines with out feeling of any comfort or succour for the tyme. Wherefore neither you nor any of the Fathers ought to conceave that me heere should signifie not Christ properly but the Church Figurativelie What other construction you can make heereof I can not discerne Finally this 1. sense is contrary to your 2. and 3. following also to your 5. and 6. senses If eyther of these be taken as the true meaning of this place it cannot possibly stande with the rest although you allow them all as by and by we shall manifestly see Now then your sense what is it Even this that Christs humane nature was left helples to the rage of the Iewes which is a kinde of forsaking This seemeth to come neerest indeed to your liking by that which I observe in a Pag. 13 you But as I said this is directly contrary to your 1. sense to the rest following Also b Heere 11.50 before we saw how greatly Christes sufferinges specially on the Crosse differed from such as the godly doe also suffer Yea there is surely no reason nor shew of reason that Christ heere should so mournfully and so vncomfortably complaine that God had forsaken him if it were only but for such distresses as the godly also doe equally suffer at the hands of evill men Seeing most of theÌ„ at the hower of their martyrdoms doe never vtter any such shew as Christ heere did of a minde vncomforted Where also note this well that no godly man not Martyr did ever ascribe this forsaking of themselves to God in the time of their martyrdomes For though then they are oppressed with greater violence of bodily enemies yet they are assisted with far greater abundance of heavenly comfort even in the middest of the paines of death So that they never mourne nor complaine at such extreme dealing as Christ now did when hee said my God my God why hast thou forsaken me Wherefore it is a great shame to imagine that Christ was lesse able to indure such a dereliction or that he would thus complaine and mourne for it only Pag. 35. The bare names againe of c Austin Ambrose Hierom doe heere likewise no good This is but a weake kind of reasoning for so learned a Divine as you are Although also these very sentences of the Fathers I can easily admit if they import no more then they seeme namely that these outward afflictions on the Crosse were some cause and that not small of his complaint alwayes remembring that some greater cause also did concurre was conioyned with them Your 3. sense if I conceave it a right is that his being lâ—ft to bodily death caused him thus to mourne which is but as the last before And yet you seeme to meane not onely that but also because his d flesh now should want all feeling of his heavenly comfort for that while â—n that you 〈◊〉 His Godâ—â—ad deparâ—â— nowe froÌ„ 〈◊〉 body c. that it should remaine dead A marvelous exquisit far fet cause Yet me thinks as this crosseth your other expositions heere so it is flat contrary to the Scripture also which giveth after a sort to Christs dead Flesh this lively affection 〈◊〉 2.26.27 e my flesh shall rest in hope because thou wilt not leave my soule to remaine as all other flesh dying doth in the vnseene worlde of the dead neither wilt suffer thy holy one to see corruptioÌ„ Is it likely is it possible that he should so dolefully mourne that either he should bodily dy or that his body should want the sense of his divine presence so little a while when as in his mind hee speaketh so triumphantly of his constant and continuall ioy in God yea not excluding even his body though dead from participating in some sort therein as we read in the former place at large I beheld the Lord always before me for he is at my right hand that I should not be shaken Therefore did my heart reioyce my toung was glad moreover my Flesh shallrest in hope c. Now can a man in this exceeding generall and constant ioy so vncomfortably mourne in that sense as you vrge My God my God why forsakest thou my flesh It cannot be Many thinges more may be strongly alleaged against this opinioÌ„ As first seeing he perfitly knew thath as his flesh now should quietly rest and have a present ende of all his most bitter sorrowes so even all that while continually after his soul which was his best part should inioy perfit glory and comfort more then before it did Also seeing this senseles rest of his flesh was to be but for a very little while then presently to receave a most glorious and eternall felicity iointly with his Soul and with his Deity who can imagine that Christ would now ready to dy so extreamely mourne and complaine only for this cause as your fancy importeth Further he knew perfitly that this was the very appointment of God and for the fulfilling of Prophesies for the obtayning of his most desired purchase of our health for the more advancing of Gods glory yea and for the more advancing of his very
the now L. Bishop of Winchester to begin among vs a new matter of faith neuer heard of before in England but only in the dayes of Popery touching the All sufficiency of the meere Bodily Sufferings of Christ and to maintaine an other which was neere worne out of his going downe to Hell in Soule In both which because my conscience assured mee that hee was much mistaken and laboured that others should mistake also I thought it not besides my duty the Lord offering me opportunity to maintaine the truth and that in all plainenes and evidence of the Scripture as God inabled me with This now a while since being published wherein my trust is I caryed my selfe no otherwise then J ought the Author and maintayner of the contrary hath so of late intertayned it as seemeth to mee and to many others wonderfull Wonderfull not for strength of reasons nor for exquisit matter such as neuer before was delivered though his learning J acknowledge and will not but reverence his gifts but wonderfull his answer is and altogeather extraordinary considering that such incomparable bitternes disdaine skoffing reproch and furious rage doth so abundantly com from him therein against my poore selfe being yet by the mercy of God a true Christian a Minister of the Gospel and one I praise the Lorde which euer haue bin carefull to bee free from the scandalls of the World Though heerein J boast not but rather with the Apostle will boast of mine infirmities Verily this now J haue learned by his writing better then euer I conceaued before namely what great oddes he maketh and desireth to be made betweene himselfe a Lord Bishop and an other being but a Preacher of Gods most holy word Well this is the Rhetorike and the ornaments of his Conclusion against my treatise But all this is besides his Matter which nevertheles may haue peradventure som weight in it It may peradventure Wherefore J see a double necessity vrging me to reply therevnto First to the end that his exceptions and reasons that is to say his wholl matter may appeare yet better to be so weake and vnsufficient as indeed they are See that those vncivill reproches I will not say vnchristian revilings being the bewty and forme of his booke may appeare to be but the froth of a distempered stomacke the colour of reason and iust cause which he casteth on it being taken away As touching the matter therefore thus I purpose to deale I will begin with his later writing which he calleth a Conclusion because he mainly directeth it against mee taking in by the way also all such places points in the former Treatise as do rightly concerne our matter in hand Finally as touching his reproches and cruell words I intend wholy to passe ouer them seeing for them neither is he any whit the better nor my selfe the worse The Defence of the Treatise of Christes sufferings against Maister Bilsons Conclusion HIs Conclusion for so he thinketh good to call it beginneth against me in his page 225. Wherein first he doeth change me in generall termes that I flee from the state of the Chiefe question and overskip his Authorities The like saith in Eâ— pag. 9. in his reasons I forget and dissemble what pleaseth my self in the defence of my holy cause as it pleaseth him to mocke I roue as I list neither keeping any order nor bringing any matter of moment coÌ„fusedly powring out the hasty resolutions of mine own braines spiced euery where with ignorant absurd positions proudly despising all authority antiquitie c. Al which words are but wind as I shal make it evident God willing wheÌ„ we com to view his particulars heerafter insuing Among which he * Pag. â— beginneh to iustifie that he mistooke not his Text when hee preached this doctrine But I wil speak thereof anon so that first I satisfie him in the most principal point of his challeÌ„ge against me Which is this “ Episâ— that I haue changed the first questioÌ„ that I set not down the state therof fully nor truly so I offer to prove that which he never denied I coÌ„fute that which he never affirmed Let vs ther fore coÌ„sider advisedly this questioÌ„ which I wil set downe again as exactly as plainly as I can that we may see how far I erred froÌ„ it before We affirme That Christ in his Soul suffered all Gods proper Wrath and vengeance being paines and punishment for sinne no sinne also as touching the essence or nature thereof The suâ— whole out 1. â— and so farre as was due Generally for all mankinde to suffer His contrary opinion we conceaue thus That Christ suffered for our sinnes nothing ells but simply and “ or 〈◊〉 his Hoâ— fectioÌ„s â—â—tio and meerely a Bodily death altogither like as the godlie and holy men do often suffer at the handes of persecutors saving only that God accepted this death of his Sonne as a ransom for sinne but the death of his servants be doth not The Opening of the whole staâ—e of this Question For the better vnderstanding whereof we must note these principall things taine spe I things to â—oted First that All suffering of Paines in man is froÌ„ God either properly from his Iustice or from his Holy Love either froÌ„ him alone or also from his Instruments and inferior meanes Againe Al suffering of Paines is for Sinne either inherent or imputed either as Correction or as Punishment either immediatly or mediatly as anon we shall further see Sec By the Lawe of our Creation as we are men having a Soule besides our Body so our Soule hath in it a 3. fold faculty of Suffering Paines First that which is Proper and immediat iustly so called â—ee kindes 〈◊〉 Soâ—â—es â—â—â—ing of 〈◊〉 Proper because it is proper only to reasonable and immortall Spirites although in men if it grow vehement it affecteth coÌ„sequently the Body also Immediat 2. wayes 1. because it can doth receave an impression of sorrow and Paines made from God only by and in it selfe without any outward bodily meanes therevnto 2. It is also an Immediat Punishment or els Correction of sinne it cometh not for any other cause at all So that thus we meane when we speake of the Soules Proper and Immediat Suffering The Soules second faculty of Suffering paines is not Proper but Common to vs with Beasts namely that which is by Sympathy Communion with and from the Body For which cause also it is not Immediat sith it commeth not to the Soule but by externall bodily meanes A third kind of painful Suffering the Soule hath namely her vehemeÌ„t strong AffectioÌ„s are Painful whether they be good or evill As Zeale Love CoÌ„passion Pity Care c. Neither are these immediatly for Sinne whether Punishmentes or Corrections but they com for and by other immediat causes â—â—tions no â—â—at â—or 〈◊〉 Punish 〈◊〉 5. neither are they Punishments or Corrections at all
this last way is not the vnlikelyest Hades heere signifieth in effect nothing els but Death that Christs Soul departed this life was held therein but could not be holden fast â—â—g 166. You obiect c We must not make a Figurative sense but where manefest need is Heere is no need of a figurative sense Therefore heere ought to be no Figure supposed I answer First wee grant your Conclusion whether of the 2. former wayes soever that we take hades so there is simply no Figure at all therein Sec Then your own sense of Hell in this place is cleane overthrown by your selfe For whensoever hades and sheol do signifie Hell it is indeed by a Figure namely Synékdoche where the Whole is set for a part Which I have proved at large before â—â—re pag. particularly by d Tremellius a sufficient man for his Hebrue skill Wherefore by this reason Hell cannot possibly be meant heere if no Figure be admitted Third it seemeth convenient and also likely to take hades heere by a Prosopopoea after our 3. sense before noted Which kind of Figure supposeth as it were a Person of that thing which otherwise a word properly signifieth So that by this figure nothing of the wordes native signification is diminished Thus our word hades is vsed in the Corinthians O Hades where is thy victory Also as it may seeme in the Revelation Death Hades were cast into Hell â—â—ther as pa. 17â— Thus then it is nothing but emphatically signifying the power of Death Fourth Admit that hades and sheol did properly signifie Hell as we see they do not Likewise that sometime they signifie only the Grave which also you acknowledg it is true when it is applyed to a dead Body Againe admit that nephesh by a Figure may signifie the whole Person yea e the dead Body somtimes 〈◊〉 doth 〈◊〉 21.1 〈◊〉 2â— 4 Then I affirme that heere in this place of necessity there ought to be vnderstood a Figurative sense Heere is plainly most necessary cause For take them thus literally as you doe and they impugne the groundes of faith and charitie Which f Pag 1â— you grant that rightly is sufficient to cause a Figurative sense in Scripture But how do they impugne faith or charity being taken as you take them Verily thus Your sense implyeth by the way and consequently Points in Assertion â—â—â—trary to â—â—â—coÌ„mon â—â—oâ— Faith 〈◊〉 charity that a good and sinles man yea the best that ever was worthy of Paradise and the highest Heavens yet after death did go to Hell And further that being in Heaven yet he stayed not there as you say but immediatly came out againe to go into Hell Againe that a Humane soule being in the depth of Hell yet should feele no paines and that being locally in hell it should com out thence also What can be more against the generall rules of the Scripture then these things Yea how doth this impugne our generall charity towards all the iust when they dy Besides many other disproportions and vnreasonable inconveniences following withall as anon we shall further see Wherefore if by any meames possibly a Figure may be heere admitted certainly it must be so for these most necessary causes last rehearsed The rather seeing no other text any where insinuateth any such peculiar matter in Christ that he should differ in these points from all good men els as you do vrge But you say The Cirâ—â—stances 〈◊〉 against yâ—â— the circumstances heere doe prove that the word must be Hell properly taken That I would faine see What are these circumstances First this place sheweth * Pag. 1â— a special prerogative verified in none but in Christ I deny it heere is no such prerogative mentioned Except this that whereas some other men after death have returned to life againe it was not by their owne power as Christs ResurrectioÌ„ was Againe God in his revealed wil having signified by his Prophet long before that he should be restored speedily to life againe thus it was simply impossible that Christ should be holden fast by the power of Death although it had got hold of him And so indeed he had a prerogative before all men ells which also is heere shewed vs but no other prerogative in the world neither heere nor any where els caÌ„ be gathered touching his returne from Hell You adde No flesh dead was ever free from corruption but only Christes What then Ergo his Soule was in Hell Or ells why bring you such needles and impertinent matter Besides I iudge that not to be true Were not a Pag. 1â— some being dead raised to life againe before their flesh putrified But nonâ— you say in the sepulchre And what then How will this inferre or prove that so none but Christs Soul was ever supported in Hel or that it was ever there These are simple reasons for so great a conclusion Then you say Jf by Hell we vnderstand Paradise it was no privilege to be there not forsaken but rather a childish absurdity to thinke any Soule might be there forsaken It is a strange absurdity still to abuse your reader calling this word Hel â—â—tio prinâ—◠〈◊〉 which indeed is nothing but Death in effect the Power of death or the condition and state of death Againe to presume that wee take it for Paradise or Heaven or Hell at any time when we referre it allwayes to the generall state of the Dead and no further immediatly Now in this Christ had cause to reioyce that neither his Soule nor Body was left but so soone raysed vp to perfit life againe and so sitted to a full receaving of glory which within few dayes after he had Also besides this cause his deliverance from the condition of death he had an other inestimable cause to reioyce that he was raised to life againe namely that he might fulfill his whole work for our Salvation which before his Resurrection Ascension c he could not accomplish â—â—g 170. Further b you obiect that Peter maketh mention that the sorrows of death were broken that they should not hold Christ nor hinder him from rising againe But there were none such in the Grave none in Paradise Therfore in Hel Christs Soule was whence he was delivered when he rose againe I denie vtterly this sequele Because the text saith not that there were any present sorrowes in Hades where Christ was Heere is not a word to any such purpose 〈◊〉 2.24 What saith the text God raised him vp loosing the sorrowes of Death because it was impossible for him to bee holden fast of it Wil you coÌ„clude froÌ„ hence Ergo there were present sorrows in that place where Christ was There is no strength in this reason The Apostle signifieth heere 2. or 3. things 1. That God loosed Death froÌ„ him wherein hee was held but could not be holden fast 2. That this Death had bene a most sorrowfull painfull Death
For it is sure that no man can prove by good testimony that there was any or indeed any other then such as these ancient Fathers thus variably and differingly rehearsed Seeing also it is proved that this set forme which we now have specially our article in question was not †As a 〈◊〉 the Câ—â— receaved for many hundred yeares after Christ some supposing that these words were not put in till neer 1000. years after him I say All this being considered it is evident that your Argument only froÌ„ the precise and exact forme of words in the Creed from the order placing of He descended to Hades namely after Dead Buryed is not worth any thing to induce thereby an Article of faith That Christs Soule went to Hell After this it shall not be amisse to consider some other reasons of good moment Our 3d. Reason is REASâ—â— If there be no certaine benefit to the godly by Christes going to Hell then doubtles he went not thither But there is no certaine benefit to the Godly by Christes going to hell Therefore doubtles he went not thither This Reason you a Pag â— call our strongest fort It is not our strongest but yet strong indeed for you have made no where any good answer to it neither can you I know a number of wordes you have throughout your whole treatise denying the Assumption but they are nothing in the world but meere presumptions You say b Pag â— Is the subduing of hell powers and the treading on all their force and the restraining of all their fury so small a matter with you that it doth no good to the Godly And elswhere most tediously and vainly you augment repeate the marvelous thinges that Christe did by his Humane presence in Hell I would willingly beleeve it but alas who saith so besides your self or only such as can tell no better then you Where is that become now c Pag â— what I read in the worde of God that I beleeve what J do not reade that I do not beleeve c. It is easy to say that you will onely hold what the Scripture assureth but in practise you will slip from this precise order when you list I know well that you boldly say that the d Pag â— Purpose of Christs descent is plainly professed in Scriptures to be the spoyling of Sathan and delivering of men from the power of Hell Is it plainly professed I beseech you where I wott well what you will faine devise of the Fathers when you impute so palpable vntruths to the word of God it self Shew vs one title one iot of any benefit which by the Scriptures Christ wrought for vs by his locall presense in Hell and then I will cease to gainsay it forever Otherwise tell vs never so much of the wonderfull and singular fruite of Christs being there the more you amplify the more you hazard your credit the more we shall wonder at your bold avouching matters which are not in the word of God The benefits all and every one which you every where rehearse I most vnfainedly and religiously beleeve namely that he deserved all good things for vs and obtayned theÌ„ for vs in his ResurrectioÌ„ c. Ascention and that finally and fully he shall in his last iudgment tread downe Satan vnder our feet But what is this to his locall being in Hell Shew therefore I say by the expresse word that Christ in Hel did these or any parte of these good things for vs. If you do not for as yet I see no title to prove that surely all your talke is but blasts of vanitie The which I rather beleeve that you never can nor wil do because you confesse asmuch somewhere as overturneth all your shew of Christes doing good to vs in Hell â—â—g 160. For a This conquest you say Christ purchased by his passion but he did not execute it till his resurrection If he executed nothing till his Resurrection and purchased all in his Passion then he did nothing in Hell For his Resurrection was distinctly after his supposed being in Hell whither he never afterwards returned to execute there any thing at all Nay Austin your only stay thinketh * he descended in vaine vnles he did good to som who were even there in Hell in torments â—â—e before â—â—g 168. But this you vtterly renounce So that every way stil it remayneth good that seeing there is no certaine benefit that Christ did in Hell neither to vs nor to any therefore we are not to beleeue that he was in Hell Our 4d. Reason There is altogeather as great reason and as vrgent cause that Christ whole man both Soule â—SON 4. and Body should be present in Hell to free vs thence wholly that is our Souls Bodies as there is that his Soule must be there present to free thence our Soules But simply it is confessed that his Body was never there neither had any cause to be for the freeing of our Bodies Therefore it followeth that neither his Soule was ever there nor had any cause so to be for the freeing of our Soules Heere I wish you would answer my proposition without Skoffes taunts and haughty disdaine as your manner is But bring some evident and cleere difference that his Soul must go more necessarily thither alone then that his Body also should and let it be truly grounded on the proportion of faith and Christian Religion if not on expresse Scripture I wot well what you bring from some Fathers a Pag. 17â— Fulgentius b Pag. 17â— 181 Athanasius others That his Soule by being present in Limbo that they meane by Hades and Infernum saved vs from Hell by his flesh temporally dying he gave vs life eternall and by lying in the grave vncorrupted he gave vs incorruptioÌ„ Heere we allow them so far as they meane that what one parte of him did that our whole man and every parte received good by But if they think his Soul by Divine ordinaÌ„ce had need to be actually present elswhere then only with the godly deceased to execute his victory gotten before on the Crosse against Satan to th end that we might be free froÌ„ Hell theÌ„ let theÌ„ shew vs the Scripture for this Divine ordinaÌ„ce so by Gods grace we shal forthwith imbrace it Otherwise at least let them shew vs a reason or do you so much for them why both parts ioyntly should not rather have gon thither by like necessity to execute that togither which both ioyntly had got and deserved for togeather the benefit also whereof is to come not to one parte alone but ioyntly to both in vs. Againe why this going to Hell by our Saviour Christ was not rather after his Resurrection when he had begun his actuall Triumph in deed by ioyning togeather againe both partes of his manhood in both which togeather before he had bene humbled Neither is it likely
A DEFENCE OF A TREATISE TOVCHING THE SVFFERINGS AND VICTORIE OF CHRIST IN THE WORKE OF OVR REDEMPTION Wherein is confirmed 1 That Christ suffered for vs not only Bodily griefe but also in his Soule an impression of the proper wrath of God which may be called the paines of Hell 2 That after his death on the Crosse he went not downe into Hell For Answere to the late writings of Mr Bilson L. Bishop of Winchester which he intitleth The effect of certaine sermons c. Wherein he striueth mightily against the doctrine aforesaid By HENRY IACOB Minister of the worde of God Iohn 7. ver 24. Iudge not according to the appearance but iudge righteous iudgement 1600. To all the godly and religious Magistrates faithfull Pastors and other Christian brethren in England Grace and peace be multiplied in the true sufferinges and victorie of IESVS CHRIST our onely and most glorious Redeemer GIVE me leaue I beseech you Fathers and Brethren right honorable beloved in Christ in so great and necessary a case to reply and Defend my selfe in such wise as becommeth me against the vnseemely writings of a mā who indeed I aknowledg in the world is far greater then I am Yet forasmuch as the Cause which heere I maintaine is right and iust as to any man I hope it shall soone appeare that will simply and soberly trie it by the Scriptures Againe in regard of mine owne person and poore credit although meane in the world yet by Gods mercie such as in conscience I am bound by all honest and Christian meanes to preserue seeing he so strangelie traduceth accuseth me in his booke as is almost incredible I am therfore of necessitie as I take it to open my mouth at this time and specially in the behalfe of that doctrine which I am vndoubtly perswaded for the substance of it that hither vnto I with infinit mo in England haue truly faithfully taught And albeit I finde my selfe very vnequall to try any question with him who is so high in authoritie so prompt of witt so exquisit in learning my selfe in all things so despised and rejected as I am by him and some others insomuch that I might iustlie be altogeather terrified and wholly turned away were my cause neuer so good frō maintayning the same against him yet surely God is my witnes it seemeth to mee so easy and so plaine to defend togeather with the necessitie of duetie binding me as likewise indeed all mē els I think to stande therevnto that I could not choose but speake againe in this matter and cleere it againe so well as I can from his further weake exceptions and vnsufficient obiections against it Neyther let any man thinke that in thus doing I greatly please my selfe or seeme vnwilling to let others to vtter their iudgments heerevpon Nay surely it is the thing that heerein chiefly I desire even that others yea many others if so it may seeme good vnto thē would declare their mindes touching this new doctrine sprung vp from Winchester and likely to bring a common calamitie with other errors mo vpon our Churches in England because I feare that not a few among vs are wil be troubled therewith And so I doubt not but it will most amply appeare how Holy true a doctrine this is which he so disdainfully skoffeth at and reprocheth beeing well assured that even the most learned and godly Teachers in this land Defendours of the trueth against Poperie as wel before time as now at this day vnder our gracious Queene doe concurre agree with my opinion herein This if it shall please God that I may see it wil far more exceedingly please me to beholde then whatsoever myne owne vnskilfulnes hath or can vtter In the meane while I beseech thee Christian Reader consider duly with thy selfe not who speaketh but what is spoken by eyther of vs. As for me I am not ashamed to testifie with all duetie though after my simplicitie in the behalfe of the Gospell of Christ against mens improbable conjectures which my trust is that the godly and sober minded will take in good worth vprightly even as my heart meaneth it the Lord knoweth sincerely The grace of our Lord Iesus Christ bee with you all Amen H. I. A Praeface to the Christian Readers touching our 2. Questions and their Defense following IT is a iust thing with God deare brethren to punish in his dissolute people sinne with sinne and where one iniquitie is not repented to binde others therevnto Which thing surely we may to well see is com to passe and befallen vs in England deseruedly at this day Who after so long plentifull and comfortable enioying of the Gospell the most precious blessing of God in this life are now allmost generally com to this that we haue lost the loue thereof What remayneth then for vs when we set so light by this Heauenly grace forgetting our first loue which once wee seemed to beare towards it and wherein now wee ought to haue abounded but that God should punish this our hainous and generall sinne with others and among others send vs delusions euen strong delusions to broch beleeue lyes seeing we shew so small affection and so little pleasure in his truth The Lord in iustice then no doubt doth punish vs with such delusions of error as are now so rife in our land at this time more then in times past when as the Gospell hath ben soundlyer preached and better beloued among vs then now it seemeth to bee Now so much the more dangerous this mischief is as also it must needes proue yet still because it is offered vnto vs forsooth by the frendes of the Gospell and fathers of the Church as they desire to be called yet being indeed sole Commanders in Religion very Lords ouer mens cōsciences compulsiuely ouerruling their brethren and Gods deare flocke contrary to the “ Mat and 2 2 Cor. 1. Cor. 1. Pet. expresse Scripture and all well ordred Ancient and present tymes How needfull then is it that the Lords faithfull Remembrancers forget not themselues in these deceiptfull dayes nor that great charge which the great Pastour of the Flock hath layd vpon them but to bee watchfull and diligent and for no respect of persons to suffer any part of the gracious truth of God to bee disgraced by men chiefly that part and point if we can discerne what it is which by the corruption thereof raiseth and maintayneth most of our other vaine corrupt and contentious quaestions which now swarme among vs yet which easily would bee cut cleane downe if the word of God alone might beare sway as we see it to be brought to passe this day by the blessing of God in other Reformed Churches of forraine Countryes For my part being occasioned at this time more specially to speak of 2. of these foresaid corrupt doctrines J am not vnwilling though vnequally yoked to defend the truth in them It hath pleaseth Mr Bilson
yeeld vs an easier passage thorough the rest behind To com then to that which hee first * Pag. 2â— beginneth with where he laboureth very much to shew that hee mistooke not his Text wherevpon first he grounded his doctrine This I say that “ Gal. â— pag. 1. this Text whereon he * Pag. 3 groundeth and setteth downe the doctrine of the wholl meritorious contents of Christes Crosse as likewise of †Pag. 42 those effectes therof which he in his Treatise handleth I am perswaded is mistaken and that this place of Scripture intendeth not these things Gal. 6.12 It is manefest that the Apostle * heere reproveth the false teachers for mingling the pure doctrine of the Gospell because they were loth to taâ—t persecution which then followed the true and sincere professors thereof And so incourageth the godly to beare all Afflictions for this persecuted truth and for Christes sake Thus the Crosse of Christ here signifieth I grant Christ crucified Christ afflicted Christ persecuted not in his owne person only but also in his members Hee doth heere iointly togeather vnderstand by Christs Crosse the afflictions of the whole mysticall Body of Christ both Head and members which they commonly have in the world Which many shunned euen with Shipwracke of sincere Religion but Paul reioyced therein so much as in no worldly ioy like to it For so he meaneth when he saith God forbid that I should reioyce but in the Crosse of Christ not that hee makes it a thing detestable to reioyce in any thing ells Pag 227 as you imagine him to do It is lawfull to reioyce in other things besides the Crosse of Christ but it is not lawfull to reioyce in any worldly ioy so much or we are not to reioyce in comparison of our ioy which we ought to haue in this our shame and afflictions sustained for Christ for his Servants and for the purity of the Gospell Paul had very great cause thus exceedingly to reioyce heerein For 1. this was a token to men that he walked in the perfit way and a meanes also to himselfe so to doe 2. Because this his doing rebuked the corrupters and minglers of the Religion who would sustaine in the world no disgrace which followed the sincere course he thus incouraged also the weake professors to suffer willingly for the same 3. This indeed Crucified the world vnto him and him vnto the world as still it doth vs also These causes are both evident in the text and sufficient for Paul so exceedingly to reioyce in suffering for the pure Gospell Now hee cannot heere respect the meritorious and propitiatory Contents of Christs Crosse and so make it detestable to reioyce in any thing ells as propitiatory besides this suffering heere expressed which is the sense that you give vnto it I say this Paul cannot respect in this Word if hee include his own the Godlies afflictions But it appeareth by that before that indeed he doth include them all the circumstances imediatly following do also declare it 1. That which I touched before By suffering in the world for Christ for his simple truth Church sake the * Which your pâ—â— Text v â— world was Câ—ucified to him and he indeed vnto the world Also an other reason sheweth it †v 15. For in Christ Iesus neither circumcision nor vncircumcision avayle any thing but a new Creature That is a sincere vpright conversation being the fruit of a sincere and pure faith and profession which matter hee nameth a little before “ Gal. 5. Faith working by loue So by this Fruit he incourageth men as I said though there com shame and trouble therewith Also in the next place thus * v 16. And as many as walke according to this rule both of pure profession and conversation peace shal be vpon them c. howsoever in the world they have shame and trouble Lastly †v 17. hee willeth that no good Christian heerafter should put him to busines by seeking resolution of him whether for the pretended peace of the Church vnprofitable Caeremonies should be retayned with the Gospel for lo saith he my example sheweth you all my minde J beare about me the markes of the L. Jesus that is Afflictions for the sincere truths sake which I could by policy and wisdom avoyd aswell as those corrupters of Religion if I had no more care of the sincerity of the Gospell then they have This being thus it cannot be possibly that the Apostle should heere minde to name the particular kindes and all the meritorious partes or Contents of Christs suffering in this place but only hee incourageth men as I said to indure all afflictions for Christ and his truth sake Thus you are answered also in that * Pag. 22 you deny the Crosse of Christ in Scriptures to be taken for the Afflictions of the godly You see the Apostle “ ver 17 heere calleth the Afflictions of the godly the markes of the Lord Iesus also the afflictions of Christ in * Coll. 1. â— another place And in another “ 2 Cor. â— the dying of the Lord Iesus What are these in truth but the Crosse of Christ vnlesse you imagin some mysterie in the divers wordes when apparantly the matter is all one Also the very worde Crosse * Gal. 5.1 a litle before signifieth the Shame and hatred of Christ slaine on the Crosse togâ—ather with the shame of his ServaÌ„ts And thus also “ Pag. 22 your maine obiection is answered where you argue that Paul cannot be vnderstood * ver 12. to say that those false teachers would not suffer persecution for the Afflictions of the godly He may be vnderstood to say that he would not suffer persecution for commending the Afflictions and shame of good Christians for Christes sake which they ought to have done Then what sense or reason wanteth this exposition I knowe the roote and originall of their Hatred and disdaine was against Christ himselfe namely for his ignominious death on the Crosse But this excludeth not indeed it includeth in the Crosse of Christ Christs members the faithfull which are his owne Body and so consequently all their Afflictions for Christes sake Which the wicked and corrupt professors I say wil not commend as Paul did by suffering persecution in their own persons they will not by Suffering win credit and reverence to that way in the world Pa. 229 The Fathers which you bring hereabout overthrow not this sense but iustifie it rather Wherefore you cannot avoyd it yet but that it is still an oversight in you to vnderstand heere by the Crosse of Christ the Contents of his sufferings and to note his wholl and intire Passion in every part thereof as he merited thereby for vs which evidently the Apostle intendeth not neither is he about that in this place You say * Pa. 226 you drew no reason from these words of
fruit was sinne even without and before the acte of eating Moreover other foule sinnes Haeresies Turcisme and Atheisme are committed and determined simply in the minde without any necessary imployment of any partes of the Body As touching Haeresies to hold Two first causes of thinges a Good and a Bad God and the Divell with Manichee also that Christ the Redeemer was not God with Arrius that the Holy Ghost is not God with Eunomius c that Christ had no Soul with Apollinaris that Christes Manhood was confounded and changed into his Godhead with Eutyches or divided from his Godhead with Nestorius or the opinion of Vbiquity or of Transubstantiation Finally that there never was nor shal be any Christ a Redeemer as the Turkes hold that there is no God as the Atheists Nowe are there not many provocations to hatch and to conclude these opinions meerely in the minde soule of man Are there not many pleasures even in these impieties meerely in the minde Yea it is evident to all that the meere Thoughts the Vnderstanding determination of the only Soule of man doth act them resolveth on them in it self without any concurrence or cooperation of the body therein Happily you will say The Soule takes occasion so to thinke by some outward bodily thinges before seene or heard I deny not but the Soule taketh occasion to thinke many things by the bodily senses How be it not all thinges simply And so are the Fathers b â—prian and 〈◊〉 10. in your â—â—g 255. heere to be vnderstood If any will stumble on that of Aristotle Nihil est in intellectû quod non fuit prius in sensu it is not absolutly nor vniversally true My reason is because Philosophers thought the minde to be as it were Tabula abrasa when we come into the world first They knew not the naturall Pride the impietie and perversity of mans soule which may yeeld many and sundry Thoughts and Determinations to sinne yea provocations and pleasures in sin which the Body ministreth not neither could the Heathen vnderstand them And to say that this pride impiety and perversitie was taken by contagion from the meere flesh originally in Generation is not to be proved Bud yet were that so notwithstanding the Soule afterward can acte many sinnes meerely in it selfe and without the cooperation of the body Further as the Angells sinned in the beginning by their meere spirituall conceit against God so nothing letteth but that man in his Angell-like nature the reasonable Soule may sinne likewise without any Bodily meanes therevnto Also as we can thinke well without vsing our body God so inspiring vs so may we thinke ill which is sinne our owne inborne corrupt vnderstanding and reason and will moving vs only Moreover if I grant you this point of HeatheÌ„ Philosophy that the Soule taketh occasion to thinke all thinges which she thinketh vniversally from the body bodily obiectes yet it followeth not that she taketh occasion to misthinke from thence alwayes The proper provocations and pleasures of sinne are oftentimes not outward at all but the meere perversitie and malignity of our evill minde is vsually the very cause of ill thoughts ill determinations I grant also that the occasion is often taken froÌ„ the outward senses But it is meerely taken not given taken by the corrupt and perverse minde not given by the senses Which though they be also otherwise corrupt yet simply in seeing naturall things they sinne not nor yet in hearing nor in tasting save as the minde which is properly and principally and first sinfull abuseth their operation And as touching those wretched a Haeretâ— Turkes theists men opinions before rehearsed doubtles their presumptuous and perverse wit only so reasoning and concluding falsly without any other proper inducementes froÌ„ without was the very cause of those spirituall impieties in many impes of Sathan Wherefore for you to affirme that the Soule committeth all acts of sinne by the body that God did not forbid Adam to like or desire that fruit is more then strange doctrine Somewhere most iniuriously b Pag. 3â— you reproch purity I dare say heere you have no colour of purity in this point Notwithstanding c Pag. 2â— you resolutly set your self to prove your opinion not by Scripture but by Fathers who are answered before saving Tertullian who d Pag. 2â— you say pointeth to a place of Scripture for it e Mat. 〈◊〉 out of the heart come evill thoughts But this place being considered will rather prove the contrary For Christ heere meaneth not by Heart any parte of the Body but meerely the Minde or Soule of man and that with opposition to the body in this case of sinning For thus in effect hee saith Not the Body sinneth by taking in but the Soule by sending out That is to say The Soule only sinneth properly not the body at all no not in grosse facts except as the body is the Instrument the Soule being the Agent as your selfe doe speake Otherwise the body sinneth not at all much lesse in such thoughts as are meere spirituall vnles wee meane by society for coniunctions sake in one person with the Soule which indeed is it that sinneth And thus some have thought those places of Tertullian which a â—ag 255. you cite may be vnderstood But indeed Tertullian you vse not well and bring these his wordes against his own meaning as anon we shall further see That which you ad of Bodily infirmities letting the operation of the Soule for so I thinke you meane as in Lethargies 〈◊〉 256. Apoplexies Sleepe Phrensy c. Peradventure then it thinketh and coÌ„sidereth more freely in it selfe and by it selfe then when the body setteth it on worke otherwise at other times Howsoever it can never be proved that the Soule then vtterly ceaseth operation and can do nothing for it seemeth that only our memory and sensitive faculties are stopped whereby it commeth to passe that we know nothing afterwards what the minde contemplateth and thinketh in such cases It is very rare when we remember something and by some extraordinary loosing of those obstructions it is which commonly doe possesse our senses wholy in such occasions Yet even those small remnants of such operations of our Soule beeing in such state doe evidently convince that the Soules operations hang not necessarily on the body neither is it idle when the body is hindred though commonly and for the most part we remember litle thereof Lastly if the Soules operations were so necessarily tyed to the faculties and instrumentes of the body as you doe avouch I greatly doubt howe the Soules immortalitie will bee defended against the effect of your assertion â—â—â—oul hath â—â—â—â—ion nor meereâ—â—â—â—mply in 〈◊〉 without â—â—â—dy 54.255 Surely it bringeth in with it the Haeresie of Pope Iohn the 22. and of certaine Anabaptistes that the Soule hath no being till when it shall resume hir body at the
against vs so consequently yea chiefly against Christ him selfe as our Ransom-payer and Surety in our steed If you meane that thus Christ with SubmissioÌ„ beholding his Father in iudgement at this time was cast into this Agonie it is the verie trueth and the same that we maintayne For this denyeth not but that he had real paines inflicted froÌ„ the Father as from a iust iudge against vs in him who were thus acquitted by him And thus if Aust and others a Pag. 3â— sentences be vnderstood that the Compaint on the Crosse was not Christs in respect of him selfe but in respect of his Church for whom then there he answered before God comming now to execute iudgement for their sinne so they are wel rightly vnderstood otherwise there is no trueth in them namely as you seeme to vse them Second God might be considered now as iudging Satan the prince of this world and overcomming him for vs by the victorie of Christes sufferings which he was nowe about to vndergoe that thus the Divell as b Pag. you note out of c Aug. Austin might be vanquished in our Cause not by Gods absolut and meere power but also by doeing iustice so we deliuered Thus where d Pag. you apply e Ioh. 32. Now even at hand is the iudgement of this world Now eveÌ„ shortly shall the prince of this world be cast out and I if I were lift vp from the earth will draw all men vnto me If you meane it in this sense as you seeme to doe it serveth well But that in this respect as God proceeded against Satan and for this cause Christ should bee cast into these dreadfull scates sorrowes and bloudy Agonies what man of iudgement would imagine What colour of likelihood is there in it Rather this were properly cause of great ioy and triumph indeed as sufficiently I have shewed in my f Ph. 5. former treatise wherevnto you answere not Your testimonies touching g Ioel Heb. Psal men sinfull wherevnto may be adioyned h Lucâ— an other of the like somewhat opening those places make nothing to the purpose at al. For these could not by reason of their Sinnes induce the very presence of Gods Maiesty beeing in anie measure revealed vnto them but Christ in him selfe being free from all sinne could be in no such case No better also is i Isa â— that of the Angells meere Creatures vayling their faces at the glorious presence of God the Creatour of all but Christ the Mediator was not a meere Creature but alwayes personally vnited with a greater power then the Angells were and alwayes sustayned by it vnles only in case of his Iudgement and Passion proceeding vpon him from God as is before noted when purposely the Godhead hid him selfe as it were and withdrew his wonted Comfort that the manhood might be subiect â—o full Punishment for vs as was appointed by God Although even nowe also the Godhead did sustaine his manhood thus being overloaden with paines otherwise it could not a â—efore â— 42 but have ben quite overwhelmed Third Gods Maiestie and iustice may be considered sitting in iudgement meerely against sinfull men If you meane heere against the sinnes of the Elect Christ knew the eternall and sure decree of God which had turned the Cup of vengeance alreadie from them vpon himselfe as being their Suretie so that this commeth to our Assertion as is aforesaid Or touching the Reprobates doe you think that Christ heere so vehemently wished them better whom he knew God hated or that for pity of them he fell into this Agonie and sorrowful prayers First Christ saith a little b 〈◊〉 17. â— before He would not so much as pray for them Yea it is certaine Christ rather would have greatly reioyced to see the due execution of Gods most holy and deserved iustice which is a speciall part of his high glory According to that which is written c 〈◊〉 58.10 The righteous shall reioyce when he seeth the vengeance he shal wash his feet in the bloud of the wicked And men shall say verily there is fruit for the righteous doubtles there is a God that iudgeth the earth Againe if Christes mournfull prayers were to wish better to the Reprobat how can that stand where he saith Let this Cup passe from me he should have saide from them Neither this also might he say from them as knowing perfectly his Fathers and his owne will directly to the contrary Your next supposed Cause d 290. Compassion towards men coÌ„tayneth 3. severall causes e 18.19 heere 1. for the Reiection of the Iewes 2. for the Dispersion of his Church 3. His zealous griefe generally for the sins of the world All these I grant were alwayes in Christ and caused no doubt alwayes heavines in him yet no more then a godly and heavenly minde could and would cheerefully digest and beare Wherefore you strangely deceave your selfe if you thinke that these any or all of them did so far exceede in him as to procure his most dreadfull and bloudy Agonie For the Reiection of the Iewes what reasons bring you a Luke 〈◊〉 Christ wept over their City Ergo Now at his Passion he was driven into his dreadfull Agonie for this cause and that rather now then when hee so wept expresly for them I deny this argument how will you doe to prove it I b Treat 〈◊〉 pa. 6. â—7 have shewed from hence the contrary wherevnto nothing is answered that seeing when a little before hee throughly intended expressed his affection about that matter yet therby he fell into no such Agonie but only wept and mourned for them therefore now in his Passion where he speaketh not a worde of them it is strange to say that his Pity of his CouÌ„try men the Iewes should drive him to sweat bloud and thrice to pray with teares and strong cryes that this Cup of grief might passe from him and thrice to yeeld him selfe againe to Gods will saying Not my will but thy will be done This verily cannot stand with any reason Again that his expresse Compassion towardes the Iewes a little c Luk. 19. Mat. 24. before he prepared him to his Passion plainly sheweth that now in the Garden and so still forward he gave him selfe wholy to other thoughtes matters Namely such as coÌ„cerned his great work in hand that is to be are the Paines which now chiefly he was to suffer for mans redemption at Gods hands Wherefore this work of Christ at this time performed and wrought by him Note is by a proper and peculiar Name iustly called his Passion not not his Compassion Againe you say For their sakes Moses desired to be wiped out of Gods booke and Paul could have wished him selfe to bee separated from Christ for his brethren the Israelites Ergo Christ at his Passion was cast into that strange Agonie for the griefe of their reiection This also
hath no shape of any reason in it It proveth that Christ surely had very great pity and commiseration of them but nothing els in the worlde Besides Christ might have far greater pity of them then Moses or Paul had and yet hee was able to cary his affection far more patiently and quietly then they were able which would rather keepe him from such an outwarde distemper as was even in them Also Christ knew exactly Gods Counsell and purpose for their reiectioÌ„ which those holy men were not so particularly sure of Wherfore Christ might better stay the vehemency breaking out of this affection which in such a case must needs tend against the knowen will of God In those holy men it might better break foorth very strongly as it did seeing they knewe not particularly Gods decree heerein so as Christ knew Lastly those holy men it seemeth having their thoughtes wholly defixed on their vehement pity towardes the Iewes earnestly and constantly wished that the Cup of Gods eternall wrath might come vpoÌ„ them selves that the Iewes who deserved it â—pecially â—ul who â—â—vâ—edly â—proveth yeâ—â—th Rom. 1. might scape But Christ in his Passion contrariwise desired that the Cup which hee tasted to be too bitter and too violent for him might passe away from him selfe Thus here is no semblance of reason in this for your purpose But against you heere are 4. worthie things to be noted If we consider this first that these most servent desires of these rare men were holy and not sinful Because their thoughts being wholly altogeather for the time defixed on their love to their Brethren in the flesh that they might be saved and that Gods glory might be infinitly more ample if he saved so many hundred thousands which now almost seemed to them as lost then it would be in their own particular salvation onely and thus for the tyme not thinking it seemeth vpon their own immutable Election and Salvation not any thing els saving only that they could desire their brethrens salvation yea though it were with their owne damnation for their sakes if so it might stand with Gods will which no doubt alwayes they implyed though expressed nor thus I take it plaine enough that these sinned not in this their desire and I suppose you take it so too in that you alleage them ground your reason of Comparison vpon them Nowe from hence I observe these 4. notable pointes â—â—â—e 1. That if God Omuipotent and only Soveraigne Lord will he may inflict Damnation and the paines of Hel vpon meere men not for them selves but for others not for their own sins but for the imputed Sinnes of other men much rather then may hee doe thus to Christ whom God sent indeed and ordayned for that purpose â—â—g â—76 Flatly contrary to your Assertion That which there you mention is the ordinary common rule The Soule that sinneth it shall Dy. But in Christ this was eatraordinary and singular that The iust dyed for the vniust 2. Wee see heere that there may be possibly a Death of the Soule a Curse and Separation froÌ„ God which is in it selfe neither Sinne nor conioyned with sinne necessarily but meerely a Suffering of Punishment from God for the sinnes of others imputed 〈◊〉 73.310 Contrarie to you also yea generally every where Third That extraordinarily there is greater love even among meere men then only to dy bodily one for another though vsually and ordinarily a greater can not be found among men which is it that a Ioh. 13 1â— Christ meaneth But how much more the may the love of Christ towards his Elect be farre greater Contrary to b Pa. 107 1â— your assertion Fourth Wee see here that these holy men without feeling any paines inflicted by Gods wrath but onely through an earnest and mighty Compassion of love c Pag. 293. have their mindes drawen so wholly to thinke on this speciall thing above their reach that during the time they turne not themselves to any other cogitation Even as the eye being bent inteÌ„tively to behold any thing for that present discerneth nothing els Whereby it coÌ„meth to passe that these wishes of these holy men ravished with Pity and Zeale are not reckoned sinfull in theÌ„ though they were directly against their owne SalvatioÌ„ which otherwise they knew was immutable with God and certainly reserved for them in Heaven This you d Pag. 293. acknowledge may be in men yet you will not skoffe at them as e Pag. 144. cast into a traunce by it nor reproch them with f Pag. 299. infernall confusion How much lesse ought you so to deale with Christ but specially to acknowledge that his marveylous perplexity may well be a meanes that his suddainwishes against his own constant purpose Gods will were yet no sinnes And that much rather even for this because Christ had infinitly more cause by his Paines theÌ„ felt and feared to be in his minde both more amuzed and also amazed then those men had by their affections Thus far of this As for the g Ambroâ—â—â— leâ—om Aâ— Bâ—de Fathers which h Pag. 19. you cite if they meane as they seeme to do that now at his Passion among other causes of sorrow there waÌ„ted not this even his great Pity towards his forlorn CouÌ„trymeÌ„ theÌ„ we ioyne with them If they meane as you would have them that this was the maine and chiefe cause of his extreame sorrows and amazednes therein I vtterly leave them Howbeit this heere note in them that these Fathers avouch Christ feared not his bodily Death and Passion for thereof only they speake heere questionles You contrariwise say that Christ feared bodily death for thereof also i Pag. 26 〈◊〉 you discourse and had more cause as you thinke so to do then any of his members haue Third touching k Pag. 19 〈◊〉 his regard of his Church generally the same answer serveth as is given to the last point before If you vrge that these Fathers are so resolute for these Causes as their wordes heere pretend then your self abuseth them more theÌ„ ever I did or meane to do â—ag 17. where you say a it is curiosity to examine presumption to determine impossibility to conclude as these doe what was the true cause of Christs Agonie Fourth Pag. 20. b you alleage his inward sorrow and zealous grief for the sinnes of the world to be the maine and chiefe cause of his Agonie Surely even to rehearse these your argumeÌ„ts is refutation of them enough All these are proper parts of his Holines Righteousnes as I have said but no proper partes or causes of his bloudy most dreadfull Agonie that is of his Sacrifice satisfying for sinne Only his * Heb. 2.10 Paines were which then he felt and feared Neither in respect of these your supposed causes could he say Save me froÌ„ this hower nor Let this Cup passe from me as
either now or before he dyed in the flesh or both now then also For he might well suffer it eveÌ„ now and yet feare it more ensuing Yea such a maner measure of Feare as this manifestly was could not be but a very Suffering of these spirituall sorrowes Which also that sheweth where hee saith My Soule is full of actuall sorrowes even vnto death c. Neither is there in this any a doubt full word Pag. 304. which is your maner of writing Pag. 296. nor b device vnfit for Divinity but your CoÌ„parisons of c fearing Captivitie Pag. 301. loosing a purse c. are very vnfit to be matched with this feare in Christ Pag. 302. You thinke this was but a d iest if God be said to have heard Christ and deliuered him from that he feared and yet to let him suffer it Forsooth no iest for he doubtles suffered it as before we haue seene Nowe nevertheles GOD might well heare him 2. wayes 1. by sufficient sustayning him in it 2. by delivering him out of it in due time In one place you seeme to observe a point both strange and very contrary to your selfe Pa. 118. 119 in saying e Feare is more intollerable in Christ theÌ„ doubting Is feare so intollerable a thing for him when as you haue so often and so earnestly affirmed that he feared Pa. 22. 124. and for f feare became thus astonished Pag. 303. Where * you seeke a weake advantage in that I said eisakoustheis may seeme to shew that Christ was heard being in that which he was saved from you see I challenge no certaine but a seeming reason from that worde But your selfe maketh a stranger coÌ„clusion Ergo the Active referred to God importeth that God being in the same Paines did heare him Lastly you say g Indeed but in the Garden Christ never prayed with strong cryes teares to be saved froÌ„ Death Pag. 22 that we read in the Scriptures I hope neither doe you read expreslie in the Scriptures at all that thus he prayed in the Garden You may soundly gather it from the Scriptures I graunt Ioh. 12.27 and so you may that his praying h before was of the self same nature and maner also after in that most dolefull complaint on the Crosse when he cryed My God my God why hast thou forsaken me Where the very like request is plainlie implyed as he made in the Garden when he saide Let this Cup passe from Ieb 5.7 So that the i Apostle in all reason may bee vnderstoode to have respect to all these tymes and wofull cryes of our Saviour Christ Pag. 30. And thus it is without all reason that you say k his Agonie ended in the Garden Pa. 115. 116 and that on the Crosse hee had l alwayes persistance in ioy without obscuration or intermission Likewise also that otherwise his astonishment must a Pag. â—â— continue 18. howers from his entering into the Garden after supper to the ending of his life the next day at 3. of the clocke after noone Howe vaine is this consequence how false are these sayings and contrary to Scripture in all the circumstances But you say b Pa. 30. the cause coÌ„tinuing the effect could not cease The Cause was Gods leaving his weake nature in these sorrowes at somtimes more at sometimes lesse also he is to be thought to reveale and inflict the very sorrowes not alwayes in one tenor but sometime more sometime lesse finally his Manhood apprehended these arrowes of Gods wrath sometime more suddainly then at other times These were the true causes of his Astonishment but these continued not 18. howers togeather therefore the effect was not to coÌ„tinue still in that maner on him Then you c Pag. 29 say in the vttering of these wordes the Cup did passe from him by my owne confession I coÌ„fesse it not But I confesse his extreame astonishment did even quickly passe from him yet the sense and tast of that Cup might continue longer in such a maner and measure as he was better inabled by his Deitie to sustaine it Now what ill is there in these conceites I pray you What folly is there in them Against vs heerein you doe nothing els almoste in your large Treatise Iniuriouâ— sâ—eacheâ— but heape vp many and most false imputarions That we thinke Christ was in d Pag. â—â—â— 116. 1â—â— doubt and feare of Gods favour e Pag. 1â—â— destitute of faith hope love ioy forsaken of Gods favour grace Spirit that f Pag. â—â—â— he continued 18. howres togeather amazed as it were in a trance that he g Pag. â—â—â— vehemently and often strugled and strived in his prayers against the knowen will of God sought by all meanes to decline the worke for which he came into the world His flesh feared death though his Spirit submitted it self to the will of his heavenly Father h Pag. â—â— We put Christ besides him selfe when it pleaseth vs that he knew not what he prayed nor prayed in faith Your L. if you had reasons but any thing probable wanteth not outward meanes enough to commend your cause you neede not to devise against vs such grosse and base vntruths But it bewrayeth how desperat your matter is which can not come foorth nor make any shew to the world without such proppes to leane on Besides that which heere in severall places wee haue declared to the coÌ„trary in our i Pag. 5â— 70. 71. former Treatise we shewed our minde though briefly yet sufficientlie against these iniurious speaches How you seeme to avouch that Christ was by God forsaken in a Body 〈◊〉 114.116 â—â—2 103 â—â—ore 〈◊〉 but not in b Soule let them declare that can For my part I know not your secret therein I am sure no man can in trueth maintaine it As for c Ambrosâ— 114. â—â—â—e pag. 113. 128. 1â—0 〈◊〉 1. of yeâ—â—â—ion See â—â—â—re pag. you wrest him as you did Hilary c d before After this you are bold and aske if e any dare doubt of your doctrine Yea surely I dare not but doubt of it Also we have seene that the publike f authorised doctrine in England dareth to doubt of it Which maketh Christes putting him selfe betweene Gods Wrath and our sinnes a parte divers from his bodily death on the Crosse â—â—â—ore pag. â— yet the extreamest part of his Passion See also other g authorised testimonies heereof But why may not any dare doubt of your doctrine Pet. 2. Because the Scripture saith h Christ suffered for vs. leaving vs an example that we should followe his steppes c. And this is very true also the godly doe followe his steppes heerein many times as I i shewed you before â—at 1. pa. heere 120.129 Some are conformable in some measure with Christe even in these his sufferings Then k you say we ought to be glad and reioyce thereof I answer we ought to
haue another age “ Dâ—r◠〈◊〉 age my coâ—â—nuance or during oâ— my maÌ„sioÌ„ or induring or Mansion and be remoued to another place This can not be vnderstood of his Carcase rotting and wasting away to nothing in the graue and therefore indureth not as the word signifieth therfore he meaneth it of his Soules removing and abiding elswhere Also he expresly opposeth the land of the living to Sheol therfore Sheol is the land of the dead not the graue only nor Hell only * Which alâ— to be collecâ— of that in Prophet toâ—â—ing Christ scinditurâ— râ viventiâ— Isai 53.8 but as large and as generall to the dead and as fit to receaue both the partes of men yea both good and bad men but separated and dissolved as the land of the living is to receave both those partes vnited and knit togeather Againe Hezekiah was a godly man therefore hell was not for him also though hee should not see the Lord in the land of the living which was the thing he desired yet thereby hee seemeth to insinuate that in the land of the dead hee might see him whither he was about to go and that must needes be the place of blessed Soules even that which heere is noted by the word Sheol â—â—g 150. It is a most vaine reason that you give that sheol heere is to be taken for Hell and so to be translated because death to the wicked is the passage to Hel which death Hezekiah was now neere vnto It is vntrue that Hezekiah was neere vnto that death which the wicked dy or that he feared that kind of death or that there is no sound differeÌ„ce betwene the death of the godly the death of the wicked or that by any meanes according to sound divinity the death of the godly may be named or taken for Hell This is so vaine that I will not stand any longer to answere it Another obiection of yours a is as weake Pag. 400. where you say Sheol heere must be the Grave because it is said b afterward ver 18. Sheol doth not confesse the death cannot praise thee c. Though I grant that the Grave is not heere excluded especially in the words next after They that go down to the pit cannot hope for thy truth yet I affirme that Sheol namely in the former place vers 10. cannot exclude the mansion of good mens soules departed hence that for the reasons aboue noted Neither heere doth this circumstance limite it to the Grave onely because it is said Sheol confesseth not thee For it is evident that He Zekiah meaneth not absolutly that there is no praising of God in Sheol but onely hee vnderstandeth that which c hee so greatly desired â—hich was ytâ—â—inary great â—re of the â—lly geneâ—y psal 42. 84.1 the outward frequenting of the Temple the holy Ceremonies and Sacrifices ioyning to the visible congregation and publishing of Gods goodnes to others Which hee expresseth immediatly to be that praising of God that he meaneth cannot be in Sheol by knitting close to the former these words d The living â—sa 38.19 the living he shall confesse thee as I do this day the Father to the Children shall declare the truth This is that which he denieth of sheol that none there doe praise God to the example and edifying of others He denyeth not simply nor absolutly that there is none in sheol at all in any respect that praise God The very same David expresseth also very plainly Psal 116.9 saing e I shall walke before the Lord in the land of the living Psal 118.17 and f I shall not dye but live and declare the workes of the Lord. Where vnlesse they meant only this visible praysing of God to others edifying otherwise these holy men had no cause so greatly to desire to praise God heere for they knew very wel how that for their own parts they should prayse him much better and more perfitly in the next world The Seâ—â—â—â—gint vse 〈◊〉 in the fanâ—â—â—â—â— To the very same purpose the Septuagint vse hades in other places also besides in their translating of these aforesaid For it is truly and well acknowledged by you g Pag 4â— that both these wordes Sheol and Hades are iust all one Now the Septuagint I say in other places do shew thus much also h Psal 9 〈◊〉 after the â—â—â—tuagint Jf the Lord had not holpen me my soule had almost dwelt in Hados in Hebrue it is in silence Which is not meant of hell for there is weeping and wayling and gnashing of teeth but of the state of death Nor yet of the Grave onely because heere it is named to bee the Habitation of the Prophets soule whither it was almost come when he was like to have dyed Againe i Psal 7â— My soule was filled with sorrowes and my life drew neere to hades How my soule and my lift heere are taken for the selfe same I have shewed before As also in that of Iob k Iob. 3â— his life or soule is in hades in the world of the Dead Againe it suffiseth for our purpose that Hades and Sheol are often vsed even indifferently for “ Sheoll 〈◊〉 Hades aâ—â—â—sed often 〈◊〉 only Deaâ—â— effect Thanaâ—â—â—mors Death and as being in effect the same or for the state and Condicion of Death or the Power of Death Which also sometime we may likewise conceave of the Latin Inferi which is by the Translatours and other writers vsed for Sheol and Hades though I deny not very daungerously and corruptly in deed First for a Pro. 2â— misheol the Greeke hath ek thanátou from death reckoning Death and Sheol to be all one So in Ecclesiastes b Eccle. Sheol and c veâ—s Hammethim the dead are in effect all one And the very same doeth Esai call d Isa 3â— Shagnare Sheol the gates of sheol which the e Psa 9. â— 107.18 Psalmes and f Iob. 3â— Iob doe call Shagnare maueth the gates of Death In the * Pâ—o. 3â— and 27â— Proverbes he meaneth Death not Hell nor the Grave strictly taken where by an excellencie the greedines of it is noted for being Neuer satisfied For Death generally craâ—eth more then either Hell or the Grave strictly taken do So likewise Abakuk coupleth them togeather as being in effect alone “ Abaâ— Like sheoll and Death it will not be satisfied Thus also it will appeare that that which g Psal â— David reioyseth for the very same in effect h Psal â— Christ heere reioyseth for Only with this difference David reioyseth that God had delivered his soule from death theÌ„ when he was likely to have dyed Christ reioyseth because God would deliuer his soule from the Condicion of Death sheol after he was in it speedily even before his flesh should corrupt This might be evideÌ„tly shewed in infinit places mo but that it is vtterly needles In this