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A13877 An ansvvere to a supplicatorie epistle, of G.T. for the pretended Catholiques written to the right Honorable Lords of her Maiesties priuy Councell. By VVater [sic] Trauers, minister of the worde of God. Travers, Walter, 1547 or 8-1635. 1583 (1583) STC 24180.7; ESTC S118501 163,528 396

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a two edged sword to the diuision of the soule and of the spirit of the ioynts and of the marrowe of the thoughts and cogitations of the hart For there is no creature hidden in his sight but all things naked and as cut vp in anatomy before him with whō we haue to deale His confirmation is a fond lewd tale of a priest that was cōmitted not for any such matter as he pretendeth but for being discouered to be suspicious of beeing a dealer in the popishe practises against the state And thus much for his first point The second point of vowes The second is their doctrine of the obseruation of vowes made to god which they teach being made of thingss lawful honest possible ought to be kept If this were their doctrine thē shoulde our doctrine in this point agree and consequētly the benefit of it to be reaped aswell by vs as by thē but their doctrine accounteth the vowes of pilgrimages of offering to Idols which they call saints a thousande suche like abhominations honest lawful vowes being in deed wicked prophanations of the name seruice of God in this behalf Likewise they hold that a vow of perpetual single life is an honest lawfull possible vow but in al such as in their single life cānot cōtein it is neither honest nor lawful The commādemēt of god by the apstole is contrary to it if they conteine not let them mary speaking in the forme where in commaundements are vttered But he will say it is possible by spirituall exercise so to preuaile against the lust of the fleshe as the single lyfe may be both honest and lawfull I graunt in some to whome God shall vouchsafe it it may beso but God hath made no promise to giue anye man that gifte what exercise soeuer he vse to obtaine it Therefore such vowes as hauing beene vngodly and vndiscreetely made of perpetuall sole lyfe by any not hauing the gift of continēce if for a time not hauing it al his life and bynding him to continue in restlesse burning and vnquietnesse distracting him from all his businesse and disabling him from doing any acceptable seruice to God or men but flaming in his lustes and defyling continually his soule and his bodye with dishonourable thoughtes and deedes We affirme in deede that such vowes hauing been rashly vnaduisedly and vngodly made ought discreetly and godly to be broken that the lawefull remedy appoynted of God being vsed he may possesse his soule and bodye in cleannesse and honour in the honourable and vndefiled estate of marriage who in his single life was not able to doe it And all this we teach most agreeably to the scriptures Contrariwise they teach that such a vow is neuer for any cause to be broken casting a snare vpon the conscience which the Apostle would not doe and forcing a state of life contrary to Gods commandement The consequēce wherof what it hath beene heauen and earth can witnesse against them whether the spirituall fornications of this whore of Babilō as s Iohn speaketh in his Reuelation or the fornications of her body committed by this occasiō of vowes of single lyfe were more may wel be doubted but in both she hath iustified her two elder Sisters Egypt for Idolatry and Sodome for the vile and shamefull abuses of the body I am loth to discouer the filthy nakednesse and shame of this harlot La polygamie le cabinet du Roy. Balesvotaries in suche sorte as she deserueth and therefore referre the Reader to such Writers as haue not spared to stripppe her and laye open her iust confusion to all the worlde As the Authours of the polygamie of the Popish Churches and of the Cabinete and Bale our countreimanne in his votaries haue done For which causes worthilye saide a Bishop of their owne that there was greater reason to allow them againe to marye then euer there was to forbid them For which and the like causes we also say that such vowes as binde men to liue in a wicked and vncleane life not onely lawfully maye but in duetie ought no lesse to bee broken then the wicked vowes of Herode and of the 40. men which had vowed the killing of Paule the Apostle As for other vowes that are lawefully made may be kept in the feare of god we teach they ought inuiolably to be obserued denouncing to those which shall not keepe them that the Lorde will not hold him guiltlesse that taketh his name in vaine And this touching vowes is the doctrine of both our Churches The commodities of their doctrine saieth hee is iuste and true dealing with men who wil reason thus with them selues that if a vowe to GOD be to be kept then also a promyse whiche is a kinde of vowe that byndeth more then any obligation to a man is to be obserued The benefit of not their but of our doctrine I graunt by an exercise of the feare of God in keeping lawefull vowes maye bee a meanes to woorke faythfull and iust dealinges amongst men Which if the professours of the Gospell should not vse their blame offence should be exceeding great to lie in darkenesse after the day be broken and the Sunne bee vpp But yet the doctrine remayneth still without reproofe which teacheth faithfulnesse both to God and man But this kinde of reasoning affirmatiuely from the greater to the lesse that if they will keepe promise to God they will keepe also to men is such as cannot deserue the logicke Lecture in either of their Seminarie Colledges And that a word and as we commonly speake a bare word and promise shoulde binde more then a solemned instrument and obligation as he writeth is neither good diuinitie nor humanitie And this is my aunswere to the seconde poynte The third and fourth he pretendeth to be great common welth poyntes as hee tearmeth them but let vs see what they are The 3. is of abstinence whereof they teach that 106. dayes in the yeare flesh is to bee abstayned from and the vse thereof forborne for punishing the bodye for the more feruent seruing of God beesids the religious obseruances perticuler deuotions the commoditie whereof hee saieth is inestimable to a common wealth For aunswer to this I saye that let the cōmoditie of it be what it may be we haue as many besides euery Wedensday thorowe out the yeare wherin a certeine rate is appointed to be obserued of fishe which wee haue more then they to counterpease their obseruaunces and deuotions But whereas he saieth they abstain from fleshe to punish the bodye for more feruent seruing of God This is a new deuice of this old learning that when men will more seuerelye serue God at certeine tymes then other they should then abstain from flesh For that purpose of fasting we read to haue bin cōmāded at such times but of abstinence from flesh in no place This neither our Sauiour Christ nor his Apostles nor anye other of the
make the Temporall Prince heade of all whiche is oftentymes a child and maie easely bee driuen as the windes shall blowe hym Wherein he doeth vs as greate wrōg as in the former For as he vniustly charged vs there with not obeiyng any Pastour not receiuyng the expositions of the Fathers nor determinations of Councels who teache obedience to all lawfull Pastors and bothe receiue and vse all other good meanes to the vnderstandyng of the holie Scriptures as farre as thei maie so helpe vs and especially of the lawful Councelles and learned Fathers though wee giue no Pastour the place of Christ nor any Councel or Father that which is due onely to the word of God So likewise he doeth in this place chargyng vs to giue to Caesar that whiche is due to GOD. True it is we acknowledge the lawfull Kinges Queenes of this land in respect of any earthly power to be next and immediatly vnder God and our Sauiour Christ ouer all persons and in al causes as well Ecclesiasticall as ciuill supreme heads and gouernours that by their authoritie all the will and cōmaundements of GOD maie bee executed and obeyed Wherein nothyng lesse is ment then to derogate from our Sauiour Christ any parte of the hye honour and prerogatiue that appertaineth to the Kyng of Heauen whiche is to subdue our spirituall enemies vnder our feete to animate and quicken the whole body with his most holy Spirite giuyng life and strength to euery parte and member of the bodie to doe that worke for which it is placed in it or to rule it otherwise then he hath appointed But the meanyng is to acknowledge in them that iust and lawfull authoritie whiche the Churche of Roome taketh from them and whiche GOD hath giuen vnto them and all the noble Kynges of Israell and Iuda did with good right and interest exercise and inioye Wee are farre frō perswadyng our Princes to take the holy Censures into their handes a presumption for whiche Vzza the Kyng was striken with Leaprosie by the hande of God But yet wee acknowledge as wee ought notwithstanding thei doe not exercise nor maie not exercise the office of the Ministerie in their owne persones yet are thei the Lieutenauntes of God to see hym worshipped and obeyed by all persones as thei ought to obeye hym and by punishment to force the Transgressours to the doyng of suche duttie as belongeth vnto their places and callyng And thus we read that Dauid and Sulomon Ezekia Iosius and other worthie Kynges did Who reformyng the state of Religion whiche had been polluted and defiled before with shamefull Idolatries appoincted the Priestes and Leuites euery one to doe his office accordyng to his function and charge Agreeably whereunto the Apostle teacheth that euery soule ought to bee subiect to the hyer powers Whereby it is manifest that he comprehendeth the Ministers of what name soeuer thei bee as well as others And our Sauiour Christ submittyng hymself vnto them what professour is it that should not obeye them but suche a Seruaunt as will be better then his Lorde and suche a Scholler as will bee aboue his Maister Herein therefore we giue nothyng vnto them but theirs whiche God the Lorde of all hath bestowed vpon them And therefore if a Childe as Iosias was be Kyng wee acknowledge and reuerence the authoritie in hym aswell as in Dauid or Salomon Wherein wee yeelding our obedience to God and to that authoritie which GOD hath sett ouer vs can giue hereby no cause of innouations as he blameth vs or daungerous hazardes to a Common-wealth nor hinder any good meanes of keepyng the Churche in a holie vnitie But monsterous in deede is the heade whiche thei make appoinctyng one man sometymes who often were vnfitte for any little charge to bee heade and gouernour of all the worlde and that in all causes bothe Temporall and Spirituall A thyng without all comparison more vnfitt and absurde then if a Sculler should bee taken from the Thames to be made Admirall of all the Ocean Sea Nay a thyng vtterly impossible for the infinite varietie of tongues and of causes and the great distaunce of places And what power doe thei attribute to this monstrous head of the worlde surely that which thei can not giue without beyng giltie of blasphemie and high Treason against our Sauiour Christe in makyng common his regalities and honors of giuyng Lawes to the Church ruling the conscience and sittyng in the middest of the Temple of God with the Vicar of Rome whiche maie not be attributed neither to any man of what giftes soeuer nor to any Angell or creature in the worlde Moreouer thei offende also against the state of worldlie Princes withdrawyng their alleagiaunce from thē as a nomber of them doe now from her Maiestie to giue it to this head and raising for it many Insurrections Rebellions and Treasons in the state and many quarrelles contentions and Scismes in the Churche Wherefore seyng that the true causes of all holie vnitie and agreement are with vs and not with them that is the obediēce to God and his holy word and a desire of free Christian and lawful cōferences Sinodes and Councelles and that the promises of blessyng are giuen to the precious faith we holde and not to their wicked false worshippe I conclude that these his general reasons are vtterly insufficient to proue that benefite by meanes of vnitie to bee in their Romishe faith for a Commonwealth whiche he pretendeth or to disproue it to be in the Gospell of our Sauiour Christe which through his grace we professe Now he proceedeth to particuler commodities of a Chistian state Particuler commondities alleadged to growe to a Common wealth by Poperie which he saith their Religion bryngeth vnto it and ours the contrary inconueniences makyng the comparison in our owne Countrey Which if I graunted all yet were not his generall position true that their Religion doeth make a Commonwealth to prosper and ours doth hinder it sufficiently proued For Idolatrie and Paganisme maie in some respect bryng a commoditie whiche true Religion will not yeelde Shall wee then esteeme Religion by that whiche in some one regarde is best for our ease profite and peace Ieroboam perswaded the tenne Tribes by suche a like reason to leaue the true Religion whiche GOD had deliuered vnto them by Moses and the Prophetes and to receiue the worshippe of the Idolles whiche he had errected because his Idolatrous Religion brought them this particuler commoditie that thei might tarie at home in their houses and auoyde greate charge cost and expenses in goyng from Dan or Bethel the vttermost partes of the lande of Israell to worshippe in Ierusalem whereas the other required of them at certaine tymes in the yeare to leaue all they had with greate perrill and daunger of beyng spoyled of all in their absence as he would haue had them to think and to take a greate and costly iourney to their so greate expenses and trauaile Yet
holy Priestes or Prophets before them did comaund The Nazarites in deede for the time of their vowe abstayned from wine and strong drinke by the expresse commaundement of God But yet their profession beeing to serue God more exactlye at such tymes were not commanded to abstain from flesh Neyther was this generally commanded at any time to al the Iewes but a rule for such particulars as should take this vow of the Narite vppon them these contrariwise when they will giue them selues the more to punishe their bodyes and to serue God abstain from fleshe and leaue free the vse of wyne and of all fishe wherof many are more deintie then anye fleshe for which cause the Grecians called their dayntiest and finest feeding men eaters of fishe and all other iunkettes of infinite varietie And as they left them free so they forgate not for the most part to vse their lybertie no not their obseruaunces whereas a temperate and sober dyet of Beefe and Mutton breade at home would neuer haue coste halfe so much as the forreine commodities of wines and delicates of al sorte nor pamper the bodye or make it so vnfitte for any good seruice Which abstinence how it punished their bodyes appeared well in them for their Abbotes and Monkes and other such like were commonlye not the worst fead nor in worst lyking By which kinde of punishing the bodye and abstayning from flesh many times they grew so proude as that they coulde not abstaine from other flesh which God in deed had forbidden them This was but a meere hypocrisie vnder coulour of a straite lyfe to vse a diet that the Epicure and Philoxenus culd not haue wshied a better nor daintier for their own mouth The excesse and daintinesse of which diet being taken out of that hee reckoneth the sauing of flesh woulde come to I suppose that whiche woulde remayne ouer and aboue that woulde proue but a small matter of benefit to a common Wealth As for their obseruing of this and other pollitike and Ecclesiasticall lawes for conscience sake is after in the eight article vpon more expresse and full occasion to be answered His vnreuerent speeches of the Nobles and Iudges of the Lande and of Ecclesiasticall personnes is not anye theirs but his owne iust reproche to touch all degrees and States of the Lande without anye cause For in the myddenyght of Poperye and the verye deepest blindenesse it was lawefull to haue a lycense vppon such dayes to eate fleshe whiche beeing had it was no offence What reason then why they that haue lycense and take heede of offence shoulde nowe bee thought for to transgresse for to God in it selfe and without contempte of the authoritie of the Magistrate it is no sinne as after is more fully to be declared Concerning fasting which is the 4. article it is to bed vnderstood that the Church of God alwayes kept it by abstaining from all manner of meate and drinke vnto the euening which was in deed a fast when as theirs is onely the forbearing of their Supper when they haue well dined or rather the eating at one glutton meale the sober diet of 2. ordinary meales By which account nothing is gayned to the common Wealth but sinne and the punyshment due vnto it But if it were not so yet for so little a gaine nay for no gaine the right order of true fasting were to bee altered into a superstitious faste of certeine dayes and tymes which of necessitie and vppon payne of euerlasting death shoulde be obserued And of this there is vtterlye no neede in the common Wealth GOD hauing so abundauntlye blessed the Lande with all store of all victuall necessary for the vse of our life This were an necessarye pollycie in tyme of famyne good counsell for a shipp that had spent her victualles or a besieged Citie to wey euery man his meat to share him at his pittaunce for one meale a daye But to lay this vpon a free people whom GOD hath blessed with a land of Ryuers of Mylke and Honny to eate but one meale a daye for almoste halfe the yeare is no necessarye pollicye for this lande and people Naye neyther necessarye nor fitte but in cause of distresse as I sayde before neyther for this nor for anye other For with what reason or conscience shoulde the labouring man that hath helde the plough by the end all the daye or traueiled faithfullye in anye other good calling for the seruice of the Common Wealth and to prouide for his owne necessities and those which depende vppon him comming weary and trauayled home at nyght so great a parte of the yeare bee sent fainte and feeble to his reste and not according to the blessing of GOD eate the fruit of his labour Whye shoulde hee not strengthen his hearte with a sober relyefe and gyue the due portion to his houshold to his wife the moste precious parte of his possession as the vine of his house his children stāding like Oliue planttes rounde aboute his Table and his seruauntes after they haue wayted on him and after he haue eaten and dronk that they also eate for the refreshing of their faynt weary bodyes so cōfort him self after his wearie trauail with his houshold This sauing is no husbandry at al where there is meate enough to withdrawe from the people that which in al lawe of God of nature and of nations is due vnto them and necessary for the intertainment of their bodyes in health and strength to be able for the seruice of such calling as they are called to in the Common Wealth This was neuer thought anye needefull pollycie in Israel as populous as it should seeme by the Stories and more then Englande and hauing infinite more cause without comparison of spendinge the prouision of the Lande by so manye Sacrifices and oblations as they were bounde to offer then we haue which are bounde to none of those things whereof if an estimate were made I think it wold fal out that such sacrifices offrings spēt more of their victual thē their 160. dais of abstinence saued al the yeare And besides this that there is no necessarye nor lawefull pollycie in it expereince hath taught vs that it hath beene cause of damnable superstition houldinge men in that captiuitie that they thought it a greater offence to eate flesh in any of those dayes or to eate any thinge at night then eyther to commit adultery or murder or to break any of Gods commaundements Wherefore the superstitious fast which this good husbande for a Common W. woulde perswade is vtterly needelesse in regarde of the great store of the Land thorowe the blessing of GOD and vnlawefull as beeing contrarye to al law and example of anye well pollycied state and gouernement that euer was in the worlde to take from him that laboureth without anye cause so ordinarylye his necessarye foode It is also vngodlye for the snare it casteth vppon mennes consciences and for the