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cause_n body_n life_n soul_n 5,160 5 5.5664 4 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A81412 A dialqgue [sic] betwen [sic] a dissenter and a church-man touching general and particular points. General, viz. of common-prayer, surplice, cross in baptizm, kneeling at sacrament, god-fathers and mothers, baptism it self. Particular. Of original sin, general redemption. 1689 (1689) Wing D1293aA; ESTC R227165 12,793 20

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Pen'd by the Inspiration of the holy Spirit this is hard judging but suppose they were writ by Inspiration of the Holy Ghost what then can you say against it but that it is good and ought to be used but I see you will grow hot upon it and so we had as good leave of while we are Friends Dissen No no I am resolved not to go into any heat but to go on in Love for we must contend for the Faith First you say I think my self wise and my Wisdom may fall I do not think my self wise but that Wisdom I have I hope it is from God and if God doth suffer that to fall his Word shall not fall you say it might be Pen'd by the Holy Ghost well we will grant it that it was tho I cannot tell but do your Bishops and the Docters of your Church that Pen'd it pretend to Infalibility yea or no Church-m No our Church holds no Infalibility Dissen Well then there is no Church that can claim Superiority over the Consciences of Men in matter of Religion but that Church that can claim Infalibility and if your Church could claim Infalibility she could not force all Men to believe it for by that Consequence all that decent from the Church of Rome must be Hereticks indeed as she calls them for she claims to her self Infalibility but if you have no Infalibility why then do you compel Men to come to that which may be subject to errors as well as themselves So that make the best of them you cannot make more of them then the Tradition of Men and what doth our Saviour say of them that teach for Truth the Traditions of Men. Church-m Come come with all your ado I do not believe that you can make better Prayers then the Prayers of our Church and therefore do not despife them they are good Dissen Stay Friend the excellency of a Prayer does not consist in the multitude of Words and eloquence of Speeches for then the Pharisees would a had Heaven for their Prayers besides we have a precept from our Lord Use not long Prayers and vain Repetitions but my Son give me thy Heart and God accepts of the broken in Heart and the Lord saith If their Prayers be as the Chattering of a Crane or a Swallow if it be in sincerity he will accept it and he will not despise the day of small things and the bruised Reed he will not break but he will bring forth Judgment unto Victory and many such like places of Scripture all to show that it is not the Mouth but the Heart that God asks and beside there is nothing acceptable to God but what comes from him now can another make a Prayer that may sute my Condition No none can tell my wants so well as my self Church-m Why is there not a Prayer for all Conditions that you can name Dissen But I tell you God accepts of nothing but what comes immediately from himself and how can that matter come from his Spirit which must be limitted in a Form Church-m By having a Form we know what to pray for before we come to God and so we come with a sence of what we go to beg for Dissen But still this does but strengthen the Argument that you will not trust the Spirit of God to indite the matter in you but you will rather trust to Man when as God hath said I will give my Spirit to them that ask it and our Saviour said when you come before Men Take no thought what you shall say for it shall be given you in that same hour And do you think that he who hath said he will do so for you when you appear before Man and in the Cause at the most of but a natural Life for the Body will leave you and not give you what you shall say when you come before God and for such high things as are Spiritual eternal and that which concerns the Soul Oh do not think it what do you think Christ dyed for but for to be a Mediator now if you come to go in such exact Forms and they be holy what need is there of him to wash your Prayers he must stand by for nothing Church-m Well I wonder how you can speak against them being they are most of them taken out of the Scripture sure then you must over-turn the Scripture Dissen You think you have done well now but hear what the Scripture saith He that addeth to it let him be accursed now here is the Scripture and the Traditions of the Fathers put together and that which makes it the Sin is the teaching of it for Truth and making it the bounds of Communing for let a Man be of what Principle he will if he will but come to Church and hear the Common-Prayer he may Commune where as on the other hand let a Man be never so sound Principled if he do not come to hear the Common Prayer he is no Communicant so that it is the Composing by Men and the Imposing upon Men which makes it the Sin and beside all this as the New Testament was put to the Old the Common Prayer was put to both now of these things judge you where the error is and if you have any more to speak as to this Point say on or else let us pass to something else what you please Church-m Say what shall I say say what I will you will have it your way and therefore I had as good hold my Tongue and if you will go further you shall propound what Dissen No I will not have my way no further then the Scripture will judge and try it but since you have put it to me to state the question pray let it be about the Surplice why have you that Ceremony in your Church and also the Cross in Baptism and Kneeling at the Sacrament what mean all these Ceremonies in your Church and after we have cleared these we will come to particular Points Church-m First You say the Surplice doth that offend you I will tell you in all Ages the Priests were to have Garments to distinguish them from other People as in Aaron's time the Priests were to ware a Linning Ephod and his Garments were to have Bells upon them and so the Priests Garments were appointed by God and they must do as God commanded them and if so why in this time may not the Priests go in such Garments as may distinguish them for what did God do so for but to distinguish them from the common People Secondly You say the Cross in Baptism does also offend you tho I am sory it should for our Church do declare when they do it that it is in sign of bearing the Cross of Christ and to show that they should not be ashamed of the Christianity into which they were Baptized Thirdly You say Kneeling at the Sacrament I confess these are Ceremonies of the Church but yet they are good in