we haue tried all redie are not bothe one but farre vnlike and differeth muche for that before was that the sacrament it selfe is no article of our feithe necessarie to be beleued c. And this nowe is that it is none article of our feithe necessarie to be beleued that the sacrament is the naturall bodie of Christe Wherfore these bee two foundacions HERE Sir that same other before he did not laie for a foundacion CATH That is not so his owne woordes doothe proue the contrarie For in satisfiyng the requeste of his brother in Christe as touchyng this sacrament his owne woordes thou knowest be these First I proued vnto hym he saith that it was none article of our feith necessarie to be beleued c. Here thou seest no lesse but of all that buildyng this parte he laied firste as he saith hym selfe And in all buildynges that is the foundacion whiche is first laied Therfore other he laied that for a foundacion or els thou must nedes graunt that there he builded without any foundacion at all as the moste foolishe builder neuer dooeth And therfore although he dooeth not proprely name but one foundacion yet two as I said he hath laied for all that wherof sith we haue tried the one alredie let me nowe here what profe he maketh of this other Capitulo 3. HERE His profe is this Firste we muste all acknowlage he saith that it is none article of our feith whiche can saue vs nor whiche we are bounde to beleue vnder the peine of eternall damnacion For if I shulde beleue that his very naturall bodie both flesh blood were naturally in the bread and wyne that shuld not saue me seing many beleue that and receiue it to their damnacion for it is not his presence in the breade that can saue me but his presence in my herte through feith in his bloode whiche hath washed out my synnes and pacified the fathers wrath towarde me And agayne if I dooe not beleue his bodely presence in the bread and wyne that shall not damne me but the absence out of my herte thorough vnbelefe Nowe sir here ye haue herde his profe what saie ye to it CATH In very dede with some of his owne woordes I saie to it this First we must all acknowlage that he is the moste subtill craftie and wilie solititour of his masters cause that euer traueled in this matter so farre as I haue redde For if the diuell hym selfe were incarnate and so shulde come amonge vs to see what he coulde dooe againste the faithe of this holy sacramente what might he inuent or imagine therin more subtilly more craftily and with more wilynesse for the purpose then this man of his hath doone alredie For he dooth not directely denie it a sacrament he dooth not directly denie it an article of our feith he doothe not directly denie that we are bounde to the belefe of it nother But he goeth anere waie to worke then so For all these waies or any of them he knewe right well had ben of suche a sorte to swade at the firste that men wolde haue ben therin more redy to spette at hym then willyng to here hym Wherfore he thought to begynne an other waie that is to saie with no more but onely the deniall of the peine of damnacion dewe for the not beleueinge therof And that because he considered how prone reddie and gladde all men are to bee ridde of the perill and daunger of peines specially the peines of damnacion And therfore to creepe the more easely into their fauour he thought to enter with that whiche thei had moste luste to here Beyng well assured that if he preuailed therin as it semed to him moste like all the reste of his purpose should easly folowe as to playne it is that it hath doone in a great sorte For if I shuld intende to allure thee from the belefe that Christe was borne of a virgin how coulde I so craftily and so easely brynge it aboute by any meanes as by this perswasion that there is no perill of damnacion therin For let me once brynge the out of the feare of that perill And then who dooth not see how easy a matter it were to bryng the out of thee feare of all other perils whiche are nothynge in respecte of that sith thou mightest kepe the from them with not bewraiyng thy selfe And when thou arte once therin throghly ridde and paste the feare of all perils what case art thou in then with thy feithe of that article but euen cleane careles for no man careth but for feare of some displeasure that might ensue Therfore when thou art careles whether thou beleue it or no what nede any farder perswasion to moue the from it specially when the propretee of the thyng is suche as will neuer abide with him that careth not for it for he that careth not for it setteth nothyng by it And he y t setteth nothyng by it other hath lost it or will not longe kepe it And therfore when it is once come to be nothyng set by To what cometh it farder but euen to contempte and extreme hatred wherof there can be no greatter profe then the lamentable experience therof to great and openly knowen For hath not this wilie Reinarde by the meanes of this his diabolicall perswasion of no perill of damnacion in the lyke case brought many a one to the same pointe with this holy sacrament whiche we nowe speake of as it maie moste plainely apere by the shamefull approbrious woordes and behauiour of his owne disciples whiche sticke not some in the pulpet and moe in the ale howse to call it iacke in the boxe A god of .xxiiii. a penny A god of the bakers makyng A great idoll a sacrament of the halter in dirision of it and of the holy alter with such other moste shamefull both saiyngê and examples so horrible and odible as can not but abhorre all good Christen eares to here them Therfore in this pointe to conclude as I began First me muste all acknowlage if we dooe well that he is as I saide the most wilie subtill and craftie solititour of his masters cause that euer medled in this matter Secundarily we must all acknowlage likewise that he is not so wilie subtill and craftie one waie but that he shewth hym selfe as fonde and foolishe an other waie as it dooth partely apere euen nowe and muche more shall here after For here thou seest he taketh vpon him as a matter of great weight to proue that whiche no man learned will denie HERE What is that CATH That the sacrament is not the naturall bodie of Christe For who knowth any thynge and knoweth not that although it bee commonly called the bodie of Christe as right well it maie for diuers causes whiche here after shall well apere HE. Sir of this folie I dare well excuse hym For although it be knowen to theÌ„ that be lerned that the sacrameÌ„t it selfe
maketh god a lier And therfore of an obstinate minde not to beleue his woorde maie bee an occasion of damnacion How saiest thou dost thou not see what a foolishe phantasticall obiection he hath here feigned of our behalfe as though we wold hold and obiecte that the absence out of the bread as he calleth it were a trewth when that is his parte not ours For he plaieth that parte him selfe so do not we but the contrarie And againe as though we wold obiect that we are bounde so to beleue it that by gods worde but where or which of gods wordes that is he telleth vs not Wherfore this propre obiectioÌ„ of his madde phantasticall feignyng I will passe ouer leste I shuld with more talke rather hied then disclose the foolishnes of it And therfore beholde it well thy selfe for I leue it vnto thee euen as it is because it appereth more foolish of it selfe then I can declare with all I can saie And yet because his solucion therof dooth answere it so well as though thobiectioÌ„ it selfe had neuer bene imagined thou shalt here it to thintent thou maiest perceiue what a colour he dooth caste vpon the matter vnder the onely pretence of an answere and nothyng els To this we maie answere he saith that we beleue gods woorde and knowlage that it is trewe but in this we dissent whether it be trewe in the sense that we take it in or in the sence that ye take it in and we saie agayne that though ye haue as it appereth vnto you the euident woordes of Christe And therfore consiste in the barke of the letter yet are we compelled by the conferryng of the scriptures to gether within the letter to serche out the minde of our sauiour which spake the woordes And we saie thirdly that we doe it not of an obstinate minde For he that defendeth a cause obstinately whether it be trew or false is euer to be reprehended But we doe it to satisfie our consciences whiche are compelled by other places of scripture reasons and doctours so to iudge of it And euen so ought you to iudge of your partie and to defende your sentence not of obstinacie but by the reason of scriptures whiche cause you so to take it and so oughte neither partie to dispise other For eche seketh the glorie of god and trewe vnderstandynge of the scripture I doubt not but here thou seest a wonderfull charitee in this man whiche swadeth so sore to suche a concorde to be had betwene trewth and falshed that he wolde haue neither partie despise other for eche he saith seketh the glorie of god the trew vnderstandyng of the scripture And therfore I woulde yet knowe of hym when or where that partie should finde the glorie of god and the trewe vnderstandyng of the scripture whiche seeketh it in falshed HERE what speake you of that when Frith meaneth no suche partie CATH Wilt thou saie so is not that one of the parties that Frith speaketh of which holdeth with Christê bodily presence in the sacrament and that to be beleued vnder peine of damnacion and the other which holdeth directly the contrarie And therfore if the one be trew the other must nedes be false yet eache he saieth seketh the glorie of god and the trew vnderstandynge of the scripture And I saie then the one in trewthe and the other in falshed speede as they can for so it is when they be in two directe contraries But where our sauiour Christ saieth vnto vs Querite inuenietis that is to saie seeke and ye shall find although he ment therin none other thing then apperteigneth to the glorie of god and the trew vnderstandynge of the scripture yet because he did not there apoynt vs dirâ—â—â—… with apert and speciall wordes wherin we shulde seeke it Frith perchaunte toke hym to meane it indifferently as well in falshead as in trewth And that maie well bee the cause why that he for his part sought the glory of god the trew vnderstandinge of the scripture in falshed And lefte vs to seeke it in trewth where withall he would not meddle how be it litle nede he had so to dooe for therin found we it longe before And that is the cause he liked vs so muche the wors And therfore yet marke the wilie Raynard wher about he goeth HERE where about CATH Euen to bring both the parties to suche an indifferencie that neither shuld despise other while his parte might haue a quiet leisure to creepe in and cleane thrust out the tother for well he wost for all his false dissimulation that thei coude not continew together Therfore as touthing all the rest of his answere beside weigh his obiection and that well together And as in folly and falshed thou shalt not fynd them a sonder Euen so in any point els thou shalt not bring them together wherfore now because we haue hitherto spent some more tyme then neded in an errour so plaine and yet not halfe so much as the foolishe falshed therof wold require if it shuld be fully declared looke if he haue ought els that semeth to the any thing more to mainteine or make for his euill purpose then this bringe it forth and thou shalt here what I will say to it Cap. 11. HERE Me thinke sir he hath for all this in a certeyne place such a strong reason for his purpose herein as all the world can not auoyde CATH what so euer it be thou maiest yet by this that is passe bee sure of one of these two that either it is not trew in dede or els although it be yet it maketh nothing for hym HE. By that reason it can make nothinge for him whether it by trew or false CATH That can be no lie for there is no trewth that can trewly make with falshed HERE Yet ye shall here what it is CATH With a good will HERE In the .iii. leafe of his boke euen these be his wordes And first that it is he saieth none article of our feith necessary to be beleued vnder peine of damnacion maie thus be farther confirmed The same feith shall saue vs which saued the olde fathers before Christes incarnacion But they were not bound vnder peine of damnacion to beleue this poynt Therfore it shall folow that we are not bound therto vnder peine of damnacion The first part of mine argument is proued by saint Austen ad DardanuÌ„ And I dare boldly say almost in an hundreth places For there is I thinke no proposicion whiche he dothmore often inculcat then this that the same feith shall saue vs which saued our fathers The second part is so manifest that it nedeth no probacion for how could they beleue that thing which was neuer said nor done and without the worde they could haue no feith vpon the treuth of these two partê must the conclusioÌ„ nedê folow Now sir how say ye to this gere CATH Countreiman as thou saiest
we do not so beleue Those .xii. onely be necessarie saith he This veritee thou seest is none of them although as all other it maie bee reduced vnto them whiche he will none of in any case lest that whiche he laboureth to ouerthrowe shoulde so by that meanes bee brought in likewise after his minde therfore without this we maie be saued That is to wit without the belefe that the commaundementê of god be good or ought to be obserued kepte who will not see that this were enough to declare what a teacher he is or who hath so dull a wit that he can not perceiue how diuelish his purpose is and it were but only by this that he can finde no waie to come to it but only by such damnable pathes as this is Beholde how faine he wold proue it no nede so to beleue in the blessed sacrament of the alter as all trew Christen people beleueth In very dede so faine that to bryng it to passe with al he sticketh not here as thou seest thy selfe to leue vs clene without the nede of any and of all the veritees of holy scripture mo then bare .xii. for in those .xii. veritees of our Crede he thought surely that this veritee of the blessed sacrament could not be founde And therfore he dooth saie that thei onely are necessarie vnto saluacion to thintent he might vtterly therby exclude the nede of this whiche he wolde so cleane put awaie that euen for that cause he excludeth no lesse then all the reste saiynge The other pointes conteined in scripture although thei be vndoubted veritees yet maie I bee saued without them And this he declareth in euery condicion that is to saie whether he beleue them or not whether he vnderstande them or not and whether he misconstrew them or not All these I saie saith he maie be doone without any ieoperdie of damnacion Cap. 23. HERE Ye but sir ye must take his conclusion with all CATH What is that HERE Marie this Therfore we beleue he saith these articles of our Crede in the other is no perill so that we haue a probable reason to dissent from them CATH Doubtles a conclusion euen like hym selfe How be it I muse not so muche therat nor yet at hym nother as I dooe euen at thee HERE At me why so CATH Without faile because thou dooest no more wonder at his blynde madnesse or madde blyndenesse choose thee whether How bee it I dooe partely consider the cause For surely if thou thy selfe were not by hym somewhat combred with the same clowde of darkenesse wherin he was inuolued and wrapped hym selfe thou shouldest easely besyde his wily wickednesse perceiue hym tumbled into the greattest foolishnesse that euer thou sawest any man For wheÌ„ he saith in the other is no perill so that we haue a probable reason to dissent from theÌ„ maie not I sai O folish Frith what if we haue none nor none can haue how then how is it possible to haue any probable reson to dissent froÌ„ any veritees most special aboue al froÌ„ any veritees of holy scripture For what reason is there probable in dede but onely that whiche is trewe in dede and can any one trewth be against an other Therfore if thou marke this matter well thou shalt finde that by these wordes he setteth vs euen at as muche libertee with our feith in all the .xii. veritees of our Crede as he doth in all the other For in them is no perill nother so that we haue a probable reason to dissent from them HERE Why sir we maie not dissent from them in no wise CATH What not with a probable reason what thynge is there that a probable reason dooth not bynde me to dooe For what is a probable reason but that whiche maie iustly be proued to be trewe And shall not trewth leade me trewly to and fro in euery condiâ—ion HERE Ye but there can be no suche probable reason to leade as from those veritees of our Crede CATH Why not from them as well as from the other veritees of scripture beside bee thei more trewe then any of the other are How be it thow speakest this of thine own head For Frith saith no more but that we maie dissent from all the veritees of scripture saue .xii. so that we haue a probable reason therto And I saie the same by that reason of those xii also if we haue a probable reason therto For what ought I to refraine whiche a probable reason will leade me vnto am I not alwaie bownde vnto trewth and what other thing is a probable reason Therfore it must nedes folow by his reason that in these veritees of our Crede is no perill so that we haue a probable reason to dissent from them Thus taketh he from vs the nede of all the veritees of scripture saue .xii. so that by the same reason he taketh awaie the nede of them to And therfore he semeth to except them in woordes but not in dede HERE Yes sir for els he wold not saie this Those articles are onely necessarie vnto saluacion For them am I bound to beleue and am damned without excuse if I beleue them not CATH What of this thou thinkest by reason of these wordes that he goth about to make vs beleue that we be bounde to the veritees of our Creede HERE what els For what purpose shoulde he speake it but for that or to shew vs how he doth beleue them him selfe CA. I thought euen as much when he intendeth none of them both For his purpose is not to make vs beleue them but onely to make vs to beleue no moe For to go about to make vs beleue so much is one thinge and to go about to make vs beleue no more is an other thing Therfore his intent is as who saie there to stoppe in our feith that it shulde goe no farther and not to bringe it thether nor there to vpholde it For although his blindnesse be so great and manifest that euen the very same which he laboureth to improue and ouerthrow he confesseth to be a veritee of scripture or els wolde he neuer cal it an article of our feith as in the .xvi. lefe of his booke he dooth in deede saiyng these wordes For though it be an article of our feith yet it is not an article of our Creede in the .xii. articles whiche are sufficient for our saluacion Although his blindnesse I say be so great that he him selfe dooeth confesse this a veritee of scripture which he laboreth so sore to improue yet because he thought it coulde not be found among the .xii. veritees of our Crede euen therfore wolde the catchpoule as it were in a pinfolde pyn vp therin our feith from all the veritees of scripture beside and all to thintent it shulde not come at this veritee of the holy sacrament and that for the speciall hatred he beareth vnto it Howe bee it in so saiyng I confesse my selfe somewhat
nowe Cap. 25. CATH Tawnte or tawnte not thou shalt neuer fynde how he can otherwise ioigne them together when thou haste all doone And therfore as a man so trowbled and tyred with this case of his owne that he woteth nere whiche waie to turne hym he geueth it ouer quite and falleth to an other matter euen with these woordes But nowe to returne he saith to our purpose if we will examine the authoritees of saint Austen Beda before alleged we shall espie that beside the probacion of this foresaide proposicion thei open the misterie of all our matter to them that haue eien to see Those he meaneth whiche are as blynde as he For saint Austen saith saith he that we and the olde fathers dooe differ as touchynge the bodily meate For thei eate manna and we breadde Now countreiman because thou didst after his allegacion recite the woordes of saint Austen vnto me thy selfe I praie thee hertily therfore remembre them well and tell me trewly whether saint Austen spake there so muche as any woorde of bread as this felow dooth now reporte hym HERE Sir therin to confesse the trewth saint Austen saith that the fathers did eate manna and we an other thynge But in dede he hath not there this same woorde bread CATH Thou maiest see therfore what a iuste parte gentle Frieth plaith herein with saint Austen He thought this woorde bread wolde sownde somewhat more for his purpose then this woorde an other thyng whiche in dede soundeth towarde it nothyng at all And therfore in the stede therof in with breade he cometh but not by and by immediatly after he reherseth the woordes of saint Austen but longe after For had he brought it in streight waie while the woordes of saint Austen were in the minde of the reader he wist wel enough it wolde then be soone perceiued and taken not like a pointe of falshed but euen as it is for very one and the selfe same in dede and therfore he falleth first in to a longe bablyng of his owne phantasticall inuencion And afterwarde when he supposeth the wordes of saint Austen somewhat growne out of remembraunce with the reader Then in cometh the baker with his mustie bread And that he dooth only euen of his owne head without cause or requeste made of any man But onely in liyng to shew what he can wherfore in fewe woordes by my very assent He shall for his great labour be this content what so euer other men saie or will thinke To take his bread with hym and goe ere he drinke HERE What sir me thinke ye fall to rymyng againe CATH In very dede if thou were so able to weigh and consider how wylie and foolishe his falshed is as some men are and doth in dede I doubte not but thou woldest saie thy selfe that rimynge onely were good enough for hym although it were as it is not here without bothe reason and trewthe For he that vseth where alwaie two of them ought to be nothyng els but falshed in dede Is not euen the least of them three more then enough and to good for hym How false dooth he apere once againe in this reporte that he maketh here nowe of saint Austen For coulde not saint Austen hym selfe haue put in this woorde bread as well as this woorde an other thynge if he had so ment or had not seene some good cause to the contrarie was his minde so occupied in treatynge only of this matter that he had forgotten the proper name of bread whiche was moste present redie and apte to be thought vpon in this case or coulde he not call that woorde to remembrance because it was so strange and farre out of vse He sticketh not at manna but directly expresseth it with the proper name therof why staieth he at this woorde bread more then at that was it more strange and farder out of vse then the manna was why dooeth he touche this with no proper name but with a woorde commune and indifferent in maner to all thynges wolde he refraine so redy a thynge and see no cause why if he sawe any what was that Frith will not put that in question vnto vs he wolde not here of it he had leuer haue vs forget it it maketh not for his purpose as hereafter it shal well apere HERE Yet sir in some other places seint Austen hym selfe dooth call it bread plainly CA. Why therfore dooth Frith allege him so here where he dooth not so cal it will not allege hym there where he doth call it so what meneth he by that doth it signifie nothyng I wil wel that saint Austen so doth call it that diuers times but yet neuer without suche a certaine conuenient circumstance with all as declareth what he meaneth by it whiche circumstance Frith perceiueth to make no lesse agaynst hym then this woorde breade semeth to sownde with hym And therfore because the woorde and that circumstance he can not fynde in saint Austen asonder he therfore hym selfe wolde plante the one in some other corner alone as thou seest hym here this craftily assaie where he dooeth knowe that circumstance to bee awaie And therfore this hast thou herde a great parte of the very thynge I maie saie vnto thee whiche as he saith dooeth open the misterie of all his matter to them that haue eien to see Although he meaneth but those as I tolde thee before whiche are as blinde as he wherfore hast thou not nowe euen more then enough to perceiue what a goodly foundacion of his this is to builde any good woorke vpon Cap. 26. HERE To saie the trewthe if it be no better then ye make it he hath not leide it so depely as I thought he had done CATH Naie saie not so for he hath leide it no lesse depe I maie saie to thee then euen downe to the diuell hym selfe And therfore fynde thou no lacke in the depenesse therof for deper could no man laie it in dede then he hath done And yet not withstandynge that and all that I haue declared therof beside Beholde how he glorieth therin and what a face he setteth vpon it as though there were no suche matter at all for in his preface and firste lefe of his booke where he speaketh of his first treatise whiche he wrote in hucker-mucker and not as he confesseth hym selfe to be published abrode he hath these woordes But nowe it is commune he saith abrode in many mens mowthes in so muche that maister Moore whiche of late hath busied him selfe to meddle in al such matters of what zeale I will not difine hath sore laboured to confute it but some men thinke that he is ashamed of his parte And a little after he addeth vnto it these woordes But this I am right sure of that he neuer towched the foundacion that my treatise was builded vpon And therfore sith my foundacion standeth so sure and inuinsible for els I thinke verely he wolde sore haue