travell to bring in Presbyteriall Government Are they richer then before they were Are they to be in greater places then Ministers of the Word Truely I may say something that I have seen Some of them sundry times so exhausted their sickly bodies with pains in this Cause that sundry times they lost their health and fell sick but for worldly profit and preferment I never heard of it How great a fortune made Calvin with it Who as it is known and faithfully related by those who did write his life sundry times refused worldly means in a very fair and honourable way offered unto him and whose Inventory after his death hardly could amount to 40 pounds We had say ye nothing else to do but simply and singly to consider how to worship God acceptably Answ So much may many others say But most truely may as much be said of our first Parents in Paradise yet they gave themselves some other thing to do Besides all this ye are too peremptorious ye five to speak in the name of all the rest for howsoever every one of you may answer for one viz. for himself yet can none of you nor ye all answer for all those of your profession since their hearts are unknown to you and ye have no warrant from them Sect. 6. pag. 4. We were not engaged by Education c. And yet it is a blessing of God by Education to be engaged to good and bred in a true Doctrine and Ecclesiasticall Discipline Neither esteem I that it was a curse to the People of God to have been bred in his Covenant Neither think ye it a curse to yours to have been bred amongst you Ye suppose that other Reformed Churches might not see in all things So suppose we of you and that with greater reason being but five men not comparable with so many lights of the World of whom ye make your selves judges And yet ye esteem wrong in esteeming that their intention was most spent in the Reformation of Doctrine 1. For that is indirectly to accuse them of negligence in reforming of Discipline 2. Because their Consultations and Epistles sent to sundry Churches abroad testifies the contrary 3. Because the French tia vell very much about their Discipline and have reformed sundry things therein 4 And have a great many more helps then ye to frame it to Gods Word for it is expresly injoyned every Church Ruler to read it diligently Once every three moneths it is read in their Consistory and what ever any man findeth defectuous in it is represented to the Synod wherein there are so many of the learnedst most judicious and holy Divines of the whole Kingdom by whom after due Examination by Common-advice in the fear of the Lord at may much better be reformed then by the advice of one Independent Minister and two or three Ruling Elders in their particular Congregation And to think that one of you can see more then so many learned and Godly men gathered in the fear of the Lord cannot be thought without too good opinion of your selves 5. Besides all this a good Discipline may very well be established by men of lesse holinesse of life so be it they have greater abilities for the gift of constituting a good Discipline is not a gift proper to a good man but to a good Church Officer it is not Gratia grarum faciens sed gratis data not a saving gift or grace that maketh us gracious or acceptable to God but graciously given or bestowed upon us not to save our selves but other men as the gift of Prophesie for a man in preaching and ruling may save others and damn himself And a man may be a very good Prophet or Ruler in the Church if he have the abilities thereunto and exercise them well and an ill man if he let not himself be taught and ruled So we may say a man may be a good Citizen a good King a good Souldier or a good Cobler but an ill man Ye grant that In Doctrine they had a most happy hand but wherefore may ye not judge them as well to have had an happy hand in Discipline Was Gods hand more deficient to them in the one then in the other Or had they lesse abilities Or used they not their abilities What reason rather for the one then for the other Had they more Kingdoms to subdue then ye Or any other politicall ayms Or greater temptations then ye In the same Paragraph ye propound your Obtervations viz. That that Government viz. Presbyteriall hath been accompanied with more peace then yours and it is very true for who can tell how many Schismes and Heresies your Government is subject unto What Divisions and immortall hatreds it hath bred in New-England c. 2. If it hath more peace then it is such as it should be and obtaineth its adequate end which is the externall peace of the Church Ye adde That the power of godliness had not bin advanced amongst thē at in this Island From whence ye seem to infer that it is not so good as yours Ans 1. As for your Antecedent it is too bold to make your selves Judges of the power of godlinesse in other Churches and to judge your selves the holiest of all others But ye prove it by their own Confession Answ Brethren ye do not well to take advantage upon other mens Humilitie for to depresse them and extoll your selves They do well to think soberly of themselves So do not ye in esteeming so highly of your selves and so meanly of them 2. And the French are very courteous and civill but the more courteous and civill they be the more discourteous and uncivill be ye that take advantage by their courteousnesse and civilitie to depresse them under your selves 3. They have also this defect that they have too many complements But they say also Let compliments ne doibvent point estre pris au pied de la lettre Complements must not be taken literally It seems ye have not much travelled amongst them or remarked well the fashion of the Countrey But put the case your Antecedent were as true as it is false yet your Consequence is naught because of many captions and sophistications it containeth onely I will touch two the first is fallacia non causae ut causae a fallacious argumentation which bringeth a false and apparent cause for the true cause of the effect or a false effect for the true effect of the cause for if there were a greater power of godlinesse amongst you then in other Churches the cause thereof should not be the fault of the Government but of the Divell of those that govern or are governed not because your Discipline is better then ours or ours worse then yours But 1. because the Divell evermore assaults more the true Church the true Doctrine and true Discipline then the corrupted Church her corrupted Doctrine or Discipline to the end that thereby he may calumniate them all imputing craftily to
Wherefore will ye not joyn with us and communicate as Brethren with us But ye adde a little after the middle part of this Section That ye both did and would hold a Communion with all those Churches as with the Churches of Christ But what communion is this ye hold with these rather then with Papists Brownists Anabaptists in England and the Lutherans If ye say in Doctrine that Union is not externall since ye testifie it not by your externall Communion in the Sacraments with us for ye will not admit all those to your Communion that we admit to ours 2. Neither will those of New-England whom ye cry up and extoll so highly admit those of our Church to their Communion or to be Members of their Churches unlesse of late they have changed their opinion and ye and they temporize in conforming your opinions to the times and commensurate them to Politicall ayms for Toleration 3. Neither know we whether they will communicate with us at least their Writings and Letters from New-England which heretofore we have seen testifie no such thing so that in this ye dissent from them unlesse they within this yeer dissent from themselves 4. By the same reason ye may communicate with Schismaticks and men that are excommunicated amongst your selves for their ill life viz. drunkards blasphemous persons c. 5. By the same reason ye communicate with some Papists in profession that beleeve all that we beleeve in Doctrine 6. And with them all and all Hereticks in part because they agree in part in the Doctrine with us If it be replied That they with whom they communicate must also be of good life I duply then it is not a meer Communion in Doctrine but in some other thing beside viz. In good life And then 2. If they have both sound Doctrine and be of a good life or have Faith which causes good Doctrine and Charitie the cause of a good life Wherefore desire ye a Toleration to make a Sect apart or what desire ye more to make up one Church with them But howsoever ye pretend this reall Profession of Communion with us yet ye overthrow it by your restriction afterwards viz. To such as ye know to be Godly that came to visit you in your exile But ye will not admit all the Members of our Churches but such as ye onely judge not we to be Members of our Church Ye say in the same Section That ye Baptize your Children in our Parishionell Congregations Wherefore then will ye not as well communicate at the Lords Table with us all And if so Wherefore will ye not likewise admit us all to your Communion In the 8. § And as we alwayes c. In this Paragraph or Section ye shew the judgement of forraign Churches concerning you how ye both mutually gave and received the right â—â—â—ds of fellowship How they gave you Churches to Preach in some Priviledges a maintenance annually for your Ministers c. So here in England hitherto ye have had libertie to Preach in our Churches and may have if ye will and some of you have some Benefices But if ye go on ayming at a Toleration and consequentlie at some Separation as we have shewed I doubt if ye shall or should have any annuall allowance at all or Churches to Preach in as before you had Moreover we know not upon what grounds ye were tolerated in the Netherlands whether it was not in consideration of your precedent afflictions hoping that ye might submit your selves to Presbyteriall Government in your own Countrey if it were well establisht or in favour of some Merchants by publike or private authoritie Ecclesiasticall or Civill or other wayes Onely we say That many Sects are tolerated there Neither howbeit ye were tolerated in the Netherlands Polonia or Germany where many Religions are tolerated and permitted out of Civill respects Is it equitable ye should be tolerated here where there is one onely Religion professed and one Goverment as we shall see hereafter In the 9.10.11.12.13.14 ye give account of your Practices in publike Worship Church Officers matter of Government and Censures and your directive principles in all this Hence in the 15.16.17.18.19.20.21 ye infer your Conclusion of Independencie of every particular Congregation As for the parts of your publike worship we consent with you In your Church Officers ye acknowledge with us four viz. Pastours Teachers Ruling Elders and Deacons But ye lash us a little with your Parenthesis about our Ruling Elders With us not Lay but Ecclesiastique persons separated to that service Here ye seem to accuse the Reformed Churches in France the Netherlands Scotland c. as if they all esteemed them Lay and not Ecclesiasticall Persons If this be your minde it is a great mistake in you and we can produce their writings to the contrarie if not we know not to what end ye inserted this particular Parenthesis As ye therefore inserted yours so do we ours but not Preachers or Teachers of the Word And therefore we desire to know of you if Ruling Elders have power to teach as it is maintained by other Independents and if they Preach or Teach how they can be distinguished from Preachers and Teachers For all Charges receive their unitie and distinction from their Acts and Ends Wherefore if the Ruling Elder Preach or Teach which is the Act and End of the Preacher and Teacher he must have the same Office with Preachers and Teachers 2. The Apostle also distinguishes them 1 Cor. 12. Wherefore then confound ye them Ye adde in this 9. Section concerning Excommunication upon obstinacy and impenitency this Parenthesis as worthy of some particular observation which we blesse God we never used as if your Churches were so pure that not one man should deserve it We cannot say so much of our Churches Neither can your Brethren of New-England say so much of theirs We know that some have been Independenters as we our selves have heard from their own mouthes that now are become Anabaptists And whether such men merited it or not judge ye If they merited it ye have been very partiall and unjust in not using of it So that proceeds not from want of demerits in the persons to be punished but of justice in the Rulers to execute it Neither do we deny but a number of very holy persons may be gathered together who may so carrie themselves for some time as not to commit any great offence with pertinacie to deserve Excommunication if the choice be good But to say that it may last long so in Populous Congregations and in a great number of Churches ye may tell us this news when your Churches are multiplied and become as Populous and have endured as long as ours We could tell wonders also of our Churches in some parts in the beginning of the Reformation But the question is not who liveth holiest but whose Discipline is most conform unto Gods Word Your Directive Principles were three 1. Gods Word and
you or of your or our Reformation but of the coming of Christ and the vocation of the Gentiles for howsoever the Fathers in the old Testament received the Promises yet received they not the accomplishment or performance of them viz. Christ manifested in the flesh who is that better thing reserved unto us whereof the Apostle speaketh there otherwise we should have perished § 23 24 25 26 27. Containeth an Enumeration of our Brethrens grievances whereof they have mentioned many heretofore 1. The mistaking and misapprehension of their Opinions wherein they might seem to differ We have answered already 1. It is not a mistake nor misapprehension to take and apprehend an opinion as it is propounded by the Partie as we have done 2. We answer That if we mistake or misapprehend any opinion it is not that of all Independents 3. It is a great mistake in you to imagine that ye be all of one opinion For ye five who are the Authors of this Book cannot agree among your selves how muchlesse with others 4. And we are assured that ye cannot but mistake one another 5. Here also must be noted your Parenthesis wherein we might seem to differ Then your differences from us were not reall but apparent If so wherefore then will ye not really agree and joyn your selves in Union and Communion with us And truely so it is either they are not reall or they are really ridiculous Pag. 23. Your second grievance is that ye are grievously calumniated with reproaches of Schisme Schisme is a Pertinacious Separation from the true Church after sufficient conviction And as Heresie as Heresie is repugnant to Faith so is Schisme to Charitie the one quitteth the unitie of the Faith the other the union in Charitie And as Heresie is evermore accompanied with pertinacy after sufficient conviction So is Schisme also If therefore the Synod or any other Assembly or any of your Brethren should convict you sufficiently and afterwards ye should separate your selves or desire a separation from us I think that no man could deny you to be Schismaticks neither beleeve I in such a case that ye would or could honestly deny i◠your selves But so long as the Synod or some others does it not I dare say nothing As for my self I beleeve truly that ye be very Learned Pious and honest Men and howsoever ye may fail by infirmitie yet beleeve I not that ye erre out of malice and consequently that ye are no Schismaticks hitherto And I hope and am consident that God will not permit that so good and godly men fall away from his Church And this I say by morall probabilitie because of the good opinion I have conceived of you by good mens relations and some observation of your carriages in the small conversation I have had with some of you If therefore any men out of too much zeal or others out of malice have uttered any such aspersion it is in your power by entertaining of a Fraternall union with us to give them the ly as I hope in Gods mercy ye will do § 24. Pag. 24 25. But ye prove That ye are not or cannot be Schismaticks by three Reasons The first is If ye be Schismaticks or culpable of Schisme Either it must relate say you to a differing from the former Ecclesiasticall Government of this Church established and then who is not involved in it as well as we Or to that Constitution and Government that is yet to come and untill that be agreed on established and declared and actually exist there can be no guilt or imputation of Schisme from it But none of these are true as ye have confirmed it Ergo. Answ Howsoever I hold you not yet for Schismaticks yet can I not think that ye prove it well For that dis-junctive proposition may be denyed as not containing a full enumeration of all the Causes or Reasons of Schisme for a Church may be Schismaticall not onely for her Separation from this or that Church but much more for her Separation from all Churches as your Accusers may say of you viz. That ye have quitted the Communion of all other Churches as well Protestants as Papists and that in case ye could not or would not joyn in union with Churches ruled by Episcopall Government ye might have joyned your selves with other Reformed Churches with which the Church of England entertained Union and Communion so that the greater your Separation was the greater was your Schisme Yet can it not be said that it was a Schisme formally but materially for it had not the essentiall forme or that which we conceive as the essentiall forme of a Schisme viz. Conviction and Pertinacy without the which Schisme no more can be made up then Heresie For it is Forma quae dat esse rei the Forme that giveth being to a thing Onely it had the matter or materiall cause of a Schisme viz. The Separation from all Churches which cannot make up a Schisme formally no more then a mans body alone which is his matteriall cause can formally make up a Man 2. Men may yet be called Schismaticks Materialiter Dispositivè matterially and dispositively or as having the disposition to Schisme when they cannot actually resist an actuall Government but are resolved without any sufficient cause to resist or controle that Government that they judge will be established by them who according to Gods ordinary Providence have power to do it And so your Partie may yet say that ye be culpable and guiltie of Schisme materially and by way of disposition if they see you aym at any Toleration which is the next way to Separation So they may Answer unto the confirmations of both the parts of your dis-junctive Proposition in denying both your Assumptions for many there be who separated not themselves from all Protestant Churches and that are not minded to oppose the forme of Government that is to be established much lesse to be suiters for Toleration Your second Reason to free your selves from the calumny of Schisme is this in substance § 24. Pag. 24. If ye had been guided by the spirit of Schisme ye had made up a Partie when ye had the occasion But so did ye not when ye had the occasion Ergo. Ye prove the connexion of your first Proposition Because such are practises of those that are led by the spirit of Schisme Ye prove the Assumption 1. Because that howsoever ye had great provocations viz. 1. Misunderstandings of your opinions 2. Incitements to this State not to allow you the peaceable practises of your consciences which the Reformed Churches abroad allowed you 3. Calumnies in Print 4. Heightned with this prejudice that ye were ashamed of your opinions or able to say little for them 5. Books printed against your opinions yet ye did it not 2. Because that having the occasion of manifold advantages to make and increase a Partie ye have not in the least sort attempted it Ye prove that ye had manifold advantages
further it and having no impediments that could hinder it Your helps were first Gods Word Secondly The Discipline of the Reformed Churches Thirdly That of the Non-Conformists Fourthly That of New-England Fifthly The example and president of the Shipwrack of the Brownists Sixthly The reason ye had to be true to your consciences The impediments or hinderances ye could have were first worldly temptations secondly aymes thirdly education fourthly engagement to other Churches from which all ye were free But this Enumeration is imperfect for the grace of God which is the principall help without which we can do nothing is here omitted But let us examine them all according to the order that ye have set them down We lookt upon the Word of Christ as impartially and unprejudicedly as men made of flesh and blood are like to do in any juncture of time that may fall out This is much As for us Brethren being but men made of flesh and blood we know that we know but in part that we do but in part the good we have power to do for we have power to do more good then we do that we may omit much evill that we do that of both we know very little in respect of that we know not For the heart of man is deceitfull and who can know it And as for others we know much lesse then of our selves not knowing their hearts temptations ayms intentions or their sins repentance backslidings their falls or uprising but least of all of men possible in junctures of time to come that God can create for what know ye or we Brethren what may be And therefore we dare not be so bold as to compare our selves with others in time present much lesse with those that be possible in junctures of time to come in esteeming our selves as good or better then they may be And therefore I esteem that your comparison proceedeth rather of flesh and blood then of the spirit of God We wish indeed we were the best of all men but we esteem not our selves the best Oh that we might be but in the number of good men We wish we could say as much as ye but again we dare not being conscious of our own infirmitie that we are but flesh and blood But ye seem to prove it by removing of hinderances as first Of Temptations of the place ye went unto your condition and company which left you as freely to be guided by Gods Word as the Needle toucht with the Loadstone is in the compasse But this is an imperfect Enumeration of Temptations It containeth onely some externall and yet not all as those that proceed from the Divell and omit internall Temptations whereof ye purge not your selves sufficiently But left that company you in such a condition Medied it self no more in a businesse of so great consequence in establishing a new Government to which it was to submit it self Did it so let it self be led by the nose Had it no more interest in the businesse It is too much Onely I adde it is one of the greatest Temptations that a man can fall into to esteem himself without Temptations and that such a man in such a case should not need to say Lead us not into Temptation And was this no Temptation that ye went out of your Countrey with some miscontentment in it that ye found your selves so consociated that ye might frame your Government to your present estate and condition as was requisite in such a company that shuning too much one extremitie because of your sufferings ye should presently run into the other Neither was this extravagant power a small temptation Nunquam satis fida potentia ubi uimia est We had say ye of all men the greatest reason to be true to our own consciences in what we should embrace This Brethren cannot be said without a high esteem of your selves and great undervaluing of others Have not other men as good reason as ye to be true unto their consciences since they are all bound under the pain of eternall condemnation to that duty What greater reason then this can ye have Have not these whom ye call Presbyterians who were condemned to death for that Discipline ready to be executed who afterward were exiled into forraign Countreys wherein they ended their lives who were men of no lesse learning abilities and holinesse of life then any of your profession had they not I say as great reason to be true to their consciences as ye can have Afterward in this Paragraph ye remove all ayms and ends that might make you byas We had say ye no new Common-Wealths to rear c. As much may all Schismaticks say Neither can every man have new Common-wealths to rear neither can these of New-England say so And as for you five your number was too small and howsoever ye had not Kingdoms in your eye yet had every one of you one in his heart to subdue Tunc omnia jura renebis cum poteris Rex esse tui Hoc regnum sibi quisque dat This is a Kingdom which every man by Gods grace may take and give to himself without any materiall Arms or Armies And howbeit ye have no State ends neverthelesse as ye have very many good men so have ye very many good States-men among you yea more then those that maintain Presbyterian Discipline in regard of your number But what Republikes had the Protestants in France or Scotland to rear or worldly Kingdoms to subdue more then ye Your mould of Church Government will be coexistent say ye with the peace of any form of civill Government on earth that may be true of yours but not of ours for it cannot comply with that of the Turks and we confesse ingenuously that for any thing we know yours will comply a great deal more with State and State ayms then ever S. Peter S. Paul or we could do howsoever ours submitteth it self willingly to all sort of just Government that is of God Neither requireth the Parliament any thing more of the Church of GOD. Howbeit ye had No preferment or worldly respects to shape your opinions for yet praised be God your Ministers have no want but as great abundance of worldly means as any of your Brethren that stand for Presbyteriall Government But what preferment or worldly respects could Calvin or Beza have had who for the puritie of Doctrine and of Discipline introduced this Presbyteriall Government whereby both themselves and all they that should thereafter professe the Gospel were deprived of all hopes of future preferment and worldly respects What preferment or worldly respects could they have that refused them when they were offered unto them and prefer'd death and perpetuall exile before good fat Bishopricks We know King James his round answer when some asked him wherefore he preferred not good men to Bishopricks in Scotland The Divell an honest man sayes he will accept them And what greater preferment have they who at this present