S. Iohn He himselfe doth expound how that may be done which he spake of what it is to eate his Body and drinke his blood He which eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood sayth he dwelleth in me u Iohn 6. 56. Iâ—n him This it is then to eate that meate and drinke that blood to dwell in Christ and to haue Christ dwelling in him And by this he that dwelleth not in Christ and in whom Christ doth not dwell without doubt hee neither eates his flesh nor drinkes his blood spiritually although carnally and visibly hee presse with his teeth the Sacrament of his body and blood but rather hee doth eate and drinke the Sacrament of so great a thing to his owne Iudgement because hee presumes to come vncleane to the Sacraments of Christ which no man receyues worthily but hee which is cleane of whom it is sayd x Mat. â— 8. Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God c. Lay. Then it séemes by thée contrary to the doctrine of the Church of Rome that the presence of Christ in the Sacrament is in such a spirituall maner that although the wicked may eate and drinke the same Sacrament vnworthily according to S. Paul y 1. Cor. 11. 27. yet they cannot by any meanes eate and drinke Christ himselfe the matter and substance thereof Whereby thou doost declare this thing to be an vnspeakeable mystery onely for the faithfull to vnderstand for it séemes here also by thée that none can receiue the Body of Christ but onely the liuely members of Christ that dwell in him so that as they dwell in Christ Christ dwelleth in them but this is not according to Transsubstantiation Therefore to satisfie our weake brethren speake yet more playne if thou canst reuerend Father and tell vs by some familiar example whether any can haue true life not eating and drinking that holy substance and also whether there bée any cause or spiritual sicknesse in man eating and drinking the Body and Blood of Christ to exclude him from that eternall life Aug. My sonne r In his â—6 Treatis vpon S. Iohn He hath not that life which doth not eate that Bread and drinke that Blood Indeed men may haue a temporall life without that but not at all the eternall He therefore which doth not eate his flesh nor drinke his blood hath not life in himselfe and he which eateth his flesh and drinketh his blood hath life He answereth to both because he sayd eternall It is not so in that meate which we receyue for the sustayning of this temporall life for he which shal not receyue it shall not liue yet for all that he shall not liue alwayes which doth receyue it for it may come to passe that many which haue taken that meate may dye by old age or by a disease or by some other cause But in this meate and drinke that is to say the Body and Blood of our Lord it is not so for both he which doth not receiue it hath not life and he which doth receyue it hath life and this likewise eternall Therefore he would haue this bread and drinke to be vnderstood the society of the body and his members a Iohn 14. 20. and 17. 21 22 23. which is the holy Church his Saints and faythfull c. The Sacrament of this thing that is to say of the vnity of the Body Blood of Christ is prepared on the Lords Table in some place dayly in some place at certayne times and is receyued from the Lords Table vnto some to life vnto some to destruction But the thing it selfe to which the Sacrament doth belong is to euery man to life to no man to destruction whosoeuer shall be partaker of it c. Lay. Here thou art most playne indéed that the wicked cannot eate and drinke Christ Iesus the Bread of life And by this also we finde that thou doost acknowledge according to S. Paul b 1. Cor. 10. 3 4 that the faithful Iewes did eate and drinke the same spirituall substance which we do but in their SacrameÌ„ts Christ to come in ours Christ is come the same spirituall vertue in both otherwise as thou doost affirme they could not haue entred into eternall life Aug. True my sonne c In his Booke of the profit of repentance Chap. 1. Whosoeuer in Manna vnderstood Christ did eate the same spirituall food which we do c. To the beleeuer it was neyther this nor that meate and drinke which belongs to the hungry and thirsty but to the beleeuer the same which is now for then Christ to come now Christ is come to come and is come are diuers words yet the same Christ c. Lay. What other difference is there betwéene their Sacramenâ—s and ours besides Christ to come and Christ is come Aug. d In his 26. Tâ—eatis vpon S. Iohn In signes they are diuers but in the thing signifyed they are alike c. They did all drinke the same spirituall drinke but in the visible appearance they one thing we another but the same in spirituall vertue which that signifyed c. Hold firmely my sonne and make no doubt thereof e In his Booke to Peter the Deacon Chap. 18. 19. the same onely begotten Sonne the word made flesh to haue offered himselfe for vs a sweete smelling sauour to God f Ephe. 5. 2 A sacrifice and Hoste to whom with the Father and the holy Ghost beasts were sacrificed in the time of the old Testament by the Patriarks Prophets Priests and to whom now that is in the time of the new Testament with the Father and the holy Ghost with whom he is equall in diuinity the holy Catholike Church through the vniuersall world ceaseth not in fayth and loue to offer the sacrifice of Bread and wyne for in those carnall oblations there was a figuration of the flesh of Christ which for our sinnes he without sinne was to offer and of the Blood which he was to sheade for the remission of our sinnes But in this sacrifice there is a thankes-giuing and also a remembrance of the flesh of Christ which he did offer for vs and of the blood which the same God did shead for vs c. g In his 20 Booke against 〈◊〉 Chap. 2â— Before the comming of Christ the flesh and blood of this Sacrifice was promised by oblations of similitudes in the Passion of Christ it was deliuered in the trueth it selfe After the Ascension of Christ it is celebrated by a Sacrament of remembrance c. Lay. We note here from thée one thing well worth the nothing against our aduersaries that is if Christ be really contayned in the Sacrifice of their Masse then Christ the second person in Trinity is offered to himselfe the second person in Trinity But we assure our selues that it cannot stand with thy grauity to allow of such absurdity Thou doost here call this 〈◊〉 The sacrifice of Bread
and in his 96 Treatis By this occasion of the Euangelicall sentence where our Lord sayth I haue yet many things to say to you c. all the most foolish heretickes that would be called Christians go about to colour the boldnesse of their owne inuentions c. But who dares to auouch that such and such are those things which Christ had to say to his Disciples and if they do auouch it how do they proue it c Lay. To this thou hast answered very playne for by this thy playne speach we well perceyue thy meaning in an other place u Against the Epistle of Fundament Chap. 5. where thou sayest that Thou shouldest not haue beleeued the Gospell vnlesse the Authority of the Church had moued thee thereunto c. Wée also in these our dayes may iustly auouch the same thing because first the authority of the Church is the meanes for the most part to moue the outward man both to know and beléeue and also to reuerence the holy Scriptures But tell vs yet reuerend Father is that authority still absolutely to be obeyed albeit it teach vncertayne things which the Scripture doth not allow or may we then lawfully forsake it although by the same meanes we first beléeued Aug. My sonne x Against the same Epistle Chap 14. What haue we to do but to forsake them that inuite vs to know things certayne and afterwards commaund vs to beleeue things vncertayne and to follow them which inuite vs first to beleeue that which we are not yet able to behold that being made stronger by faith it selfe we may attayne to vnderstand that which we beleeue now not men but GOD himselfe confirming and lightening our mindes inwardly c. None can be ignorant y In his â— Booke of Baptisme against the â—onatisâ—s Chap. â— that the holy Canonicall Scripture as well of the old as of the new Testament is contayned within her certayne limits and that it is so preferred before all later writings of Bishops that whatsoeuer is certaine to be written in it can not in any wise be doubted or disputed whether it be true or right ☞ But the writings of Bishops which haue By this distinction betweene the certayney of holy Scripture and the vncertaynty of all other writings he proues by good consequence that the visible Church may erre bene written or which are now written after the Canon is confirmed may be lawfully reprehended both by a more wise speach of some man which perhaps is more skilfull in that matter and also by a more graue authority and more learned prudence of other Bishops and by Councels if perhaps any thing in them haue strayed from the trueth And euen Councels themselues which are gathered in any Region or Prouince must without all doubt giue place to the authority of generall Councels which are gathered out of the vniuersall Christian world And oftentimes the former generall Councels themselues may be corrected by the later when in any try all of matters that is opened which was shut and that knowne which was hidden z Nothing is hid from the holy Ghost therfore the holy Ghost is not assistant to those general Councels which may be corrected without any swelling of sacrilegious pride without any stiffe-necke of puffing arrogancy without any contention of cankred enuy with holy humility with Catholike peace with Christian charity c. But for this matter I haue written at large in my booke of the vnity of the Church Lay. Vndoubtedly these things from thée are most effectuall to proue the Church of Rome to erre in affirming that she cannot erre But yet for more confirmation thereof we pray thée to deliuer vnto vs thy iudgement also touching a principall matter of the Christian faith now in controuersy betwéene vs to wit concerning the presence of Christ in the blessed Sacrament of his Body and Blood But before we procéede in that matter we will craue a few words from Gregory the great sometime Bishop of Rome touching the vniuersall supremacy of the Pope of Rome for we take his vniuersall authority to be the onely cause that Romes errours haue bene so much scattered and dispersed abroad into euery Christian nation And because they hold now in Rome that the Bishop of Rome cannot erre we thinke the best proofe against them therein is to bring the Bishop of Rome against the Bishop of Rome Speake diuine Gregory what sayest thou to him that is called by the name of Vniuersall Bishop Gregory My sonne If any one in the Church snatch to himselfe that name a In his Register the 4. Booke Epistle 32. then by the iudgement of all good men when he falls which is called Vniuersall the vniuersall Church falleth froÌ„ her state which God forbid But farre be that name of Blasphemy from Christian hearts by which the honour of al Priests is taken away while it is foolishly arrogated by one to himselfe c. b In his 6. Booke and 〈◊〉 Epistle I speake it boldly whosoeuer cals himselfe vniuersall Priest or desires to be so called by the same pride of his he forerunneth Antichrist for by pride hee preferreth himselfe before others and by the same pride he is led into errour c. Lay. Verily hadst not thou thy selfe bene Bishop of Rome the Church of Rome could hardly brooke these words of thine for here thou doest not onely call this name A name of Blasphemy but contrary to their opinion touching the immutable doctrine of the visible Church thou doest also affirme that by the iudgement of all good men when he which is called Vniuersall falls into errour then the vniuersall Church falls from her state also But yet thou séemest here to speake somewhat doubtfull in discommending him onely that doeth arrogate to himselfe this vniuersall authority It may be that thou doost allow the Bishop of Rome to consent vnto it and so to take it being offered by others Gregory My sonne c In his 4. Booke and 36. Epistle This name of Vniuersal was by the Calcedon Councell offered to one Bishop of the Apostolike seat in which I serue God disposing but none of my predecessours consented at any time to vse this so prophane a name Lay. Why would they not consent to it Greg. Truely because if one be called d In his 39. Epistle the vniuersal Patriark the name of Patriarks is taken froÌ„ the rest But away with that c. To consent to that wicked name is nothing else but to destroy faith c. e In his â— Booke and 69. Epistle One to be Vniuersal Bishop is to the iniury renting of the whole Church and as we haue sayd to the contempt of all Bishops for if one be vniuersal as he thinketh it remayneth that the rest are not Bishops c. Lay. But if the Church of Rome permit this matter to be lawfull which thou doost so much gainesay doth any euill then come thereby Our Lord
to him likewise the Body and Blood of Christ Thou séemest thereby to contradict thy former speaches here vttered touching the same thing declare vnto vs therefore the cause why thou diddest write after that maner Aug. My sonne If Sacraments x In his 23. Epistle to Boniface had not some similitude oâ— likenesse of these things whereof they be Sacraments they should not be Sacraments at all and from this similitude most commonly they receyue the names also of the same things so that after a certayne maner the Sacrament of the Body of Christ is the Body of Christ The Sacrament of the Blood of Christ is the Blood of Christ c. And therefore as I sayd before * Pagâ— 18. at the letter â—o Our Lord doubted not to say This is my Body when he gaue the signe or Sacrament of his Body c. Lay. Undoubtedly thou hast layd open this matter also very playne for indéed after a certayne maner both Christ carryed himselfe in his owne hands and also Iudas did eate and drinke the Body and Blood of our Lord. But doost thou allow it lawfull for any man to follow the literall sence in a contrary respect that is with a carnall seruitude to take the signes for the things signified by them and so to reuerence the Sacrament as the thing it selfe Aug. My sonne The Lord himselfe y In his â— Booke of Christian doctrine Chap. 9. and the Apostolical discipline hath deliuered some few signes for many and the same most easie to be done and most reuerend to be vnderstood and most pure in obseruation as is the Sacrament of Baptisme and the Celebration of the Body Blood of our Lord which things euery one being instructed when he receyueth acknowledgeth to what they are referred that he reuerence them not with a carnall seruitude but rather with a spirituall liberty c. But as to follow the letter and to take the signes for the things which are signified by them comes of seruile infirmity so likewise to interpret the signes vnprofitable proceedes from the euill of wandring errour c. Lay. These last words of thine most reuerend Father are inuincible against the doctrine herein of our Romish aduersaryes for if hereafter they shall boast that thou doost agrée with their Transsubstantiation carnall aderation in the Masse we will then demaund of them what other thing it is to follow the letter to take the signes for the things signified and so to reuerence them with a carnall seruitude but the selfe-same carnall doctrine of Transsubstantiation And therefore we will now rest fully satisfied with these thy former speaches as being from thee a sufficient witnesse herein against them And the better to approue this thy doctrine to be the doctrine of the Church aboue a thousand yeeres since we will ioyne here with thee a witnesse or two more from Antiquity that by the mouth of two or three witnesses z 2. Cor. 13. 1. the Trueth may be confirmed Speake diuine Hierome what is thy true opinion touching this matter now in controuersie about the mystery or Sacrament of the Body and Blood of our Lord. Speake briefly learned Father yet let it be so effectuall that thy words may playnely declare thy meaning Hierome My sonne a Vpon the 147. Psalm I thinke the Gospell the Body of Iesus c. And where he sayth He which shall not eate my flesh and drinke my blood c. b Iohn 6. 5â— although it may be vnderstood in the mystery yet more truely the word of the Scripture is the Body and Blood of Christ The doctrine is diuine c Looke the 26. Homily of S. Aug. and against Maximil Chap. 22. and note how he doth agree with this of â— Hierom If at any time we go to the mystery he which is faithfull vnderstandeth it If he fall into a spot he is in danger If at any time we heare the word of GOD both the word of God and the flesh of Christ and his blood is powred into our eares and we think an other thing to what great danger we runne into c. Lay. Verily thou hast here according to our desire briefly spoken to the purpose indéed and it may well suffice for a testimony from thée against that strange doctrine of Transsubstantiation for according thereunto we know not how the holy Scripture can be so truely the Body and Blood of Christ as the holy mystery and therefore because yea or nay is a sufficient answere we will content our selues onely with this thy briefe affirmation herein and so procéede to the third witnesse Speake diuine Theodoret what sayest thou touching the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of our Lord Theodoret. My sonne d All this from Theo. is to be found in his 1. and 2. Dialogue Thou knowest that God called his Body Bread e Iohn 6. 51. Lay. I know it Theodoret. Moreouer in another place he named wheate flesh f Math. 〈…〉 Lay. I know this to be true also Theo. In the tradition of mysteries he called bread his Body and that which powred and commixed in the cup Blood Lay. So he did call these things indéed but did he rightly call them so as being his naturall Body and Blood or did he but change the names Theo. My sonne That which is a body according to nature shall rightly be called a body and likewise blood c. But our Sauiour changed the names verily and imposed to the body that name which rightly belonged to the signe and Symbole but to the signe he imposed that name which belonged to the body so when he had named himselfe a Vyne he called that Blood which was the signe Lay. But the nature of the Bread and wine still remayning what is the cause of the alteration of the names Theo. To those that are admitted to the diuine mysteryes the institution is manifest for he would not haue them which are partakers of the diuine mysteries to regard the nature of those things which are seene but by the changing of the names to beleeue the alteration which is made by grace for he which named that Wheat and Bread which by nature is a body and againe named himselfe a Vine he hath honored the Symboles and signes which are seene with the name of the Body and Blood not verily changing nature but adding grace to nature c. Lay. What sayst thou then to those Heretiks which hold that as those signes of the Body and Blood of our Lord were one kind of things before the inuecation of the Priest or minister and after are changed and made other things euen so the Body of our Lord also after the resurrection is changed into the diuine substance Theo. My sonne g In his â—… Dialoges They are taken in their owne snares for neyther do the misticall signes depart from their owne nature after sanctificatioÌ„ but they remayne in the former substance and figure and
Wine as it is indéed for we find in holy Scripture that the heauen must receyue or contayne Christ vntill his second comming h Acts. â— 21. and therefore we hold him not to be in diuers places at one time as in heauen aboue and in the bread and wine beneath but as thou hast fully resolued vs that the reprobate can neyther eate nor drinke Christ and also that the faithfull Iewes did both eate and drinke the same spirituall foode which we do euen Christ himselfe the spirituall Rocke that followed them i 1. Cor. 10. 4. so we pray thée to resolue vs also if Christ as he is man may be in diuers places at once if not then how we may hold him here on earth he being onely in heauen Aug. My sonne k In his 30 Treatis vp on S Iohn Christ being absent is also present vnlesse he were present we could not hold him but because it is true which he sayd l Math. 28. 20. Behold I am with you to the end of the world both he went away and is here also he returned and did not forsake vs. Lay. But how did he both go away and also remayne Is he present here both according to his Maiesty as he is God and also according to that substance which he tooke of the blessed Virgin his mother did not he carry his Body into heauen and there sits at the right hand of God Aug. He carried his Body into heauen but he took not his Maiesty away from the world c. The poore ye shall alwayes haue with you sayth he m Iohn 1â— 8. but me ye shall not haue alwayes c. He spake of the presence of his Body for according to his Maiesty according to his prouidence according to his infallible and inuisible grace it is fulfilled which he sayd Behold I am with you to the worlds end But according to the flesh which the word did take according to that which was borne of the Virgin according to that which was apprehended by the Iewes which was nayled vpon the Tree and taken downe from the Crosse lapped in linnen clothes and put in the Sepulchre which was manifested in the resurrection Ye shall not haue me alwayes with you Why because according to the presence of his Body being coÌ„uersant with his Disciples fourty dayes in their sight he ascended into heauen and is not here for there he sits at the right hand of his Father and is here for the presence of his Maiesty did not depart After another sort according to the presence of his Maiesty we haue Christ alwayes according to the presence of his flesh it is truely sayd to his Disciples But me ye shall not haue alwayes for according to the presence of the flesh the Church had him but a few dayes but now she holds him by fayth c. Lay. Notwithstanding all this playne speach of thine yet some do absurdly affirme that thou doost here but deny a Visible presence onely and that thou doost great according to Transsubstantion a corporall presence of Christ in the Sacrament after an inuisible maner how shall we from thée answere to that absurd cauelling Aug. My sonne His diuinity truely is alwayes with vs n In his 60 Sermon vpon S. Iohn but vnlesse he were absent corporally we should alwayes carnally see his body c. o In his 2. Sermon vpon the birth of our â—ord The Word being made flesh it is euident God and man two to be in one flesh sometime man speaketh to the Father sometime God sometime visible from his mother sometime inuisible from his Father c. Lay. But God is omnipotent and therefore by his omnipotent power he may as some thinke be both in heauen and also corporally inuisible in the Sacrament and occupy no place for he may say they take away spaces of places from Bodyes and yet the Bodyes may remayne still and so he himselfe both God and man to be both here and there at one time Aug. My sonne God is in such wise omnipotent p In his 284. sâ—ntence that he neuer pulls in sunder the institutions of his owne order c. q In his â—â— Booke against Faustus Chap. 1â— According to a corporall presence Christ could not be at one time both in the Sunne and Moone and vpon the Crosse c. r In his 57. 〈◊〉 to Daâ—danus We must take heede that we do not so build vp the diuinity of the man that we take away the trueth of the Body c. Take away the spaces of places from Bodyes and they are no where and because they be no where they are not at all Take away Bodyes from the qualities of Bodyes and there shall not be any place where they may be and therefore of necessity it must be that they haue no being c. If the substance of a body how little or great soeuer it be be vtterly taken away there shal be no place where his qualityes may be c. Lay. Thou hast now fully resolued vs in this last poynt touching Christ to be onely in heauen and it doth euidently appeare also by these few wordes from thée that the formes and accidents of Bread and wine cannot remayne without their substances as some do vainly imagine but that it is truely Bread which we sée in the blessed Sacrament euen as our eyes do declare vnto vs. Aug. Verily my sonne Å¿ In his Sermon to the children cited by Bede vpon the 1. and 10. to the Cor. That which ye see is Bread and the cup which also the eyes do declare vnto vs But as touching that which your fayth requireth to be instructed in the bread is the Body of Christ and the Cup is the blood Lay. But Christ being now in heauen onely as thou doost affirme how is that Bread his Body or the cup or that which is in the cup how is it his blood Aug. These things my sonne are therefore called Sacraments because in them one thing is seene another thing is vnderstood That which is seene hath a corporall forme That which is vnderstood hath a spirituall profit Therefore if thou wilt vnderstand the Body of Christ heare the Apostle saying t 1. Cor. 1â— 27. Ye are the body of Christ c. Lay. We do so diuine Augustine for this matter we both heare him and note him not in that place onely but in diuers other places also u Rom. 1â— 5. 1. Cor. 6 15. 10. 16 17. Ephe. 1. 22 23 â—nd â— 4. c. to 17. 5. 2â— c. to the end and therefore the faithfull cannot mistake thée herein thou agréeing so well with holy Scripture But wherefore doost thou write in some place that Christ did carry himselfe in his owne hands when he did deliuer to his disciples the Sacrament of his Body and Blood And againe though Iudas receyued it vnworthily yet thou sayest also that the same Sacrament was