hundreth and fiue Gallia Britannia Africa Persis oriens Iâ—dia omnes barbarae Nationes vnum Christum adorant vnam obseruant regulam veritatis R. But why then by some is Palladius called Scotorum Apostolus C. Men may giue names as they please but hee and Servanus Sedulius Nimanus and many more came but in the fiue hundreth yeare of our Lord and may well haue beene waterers of our Church but sure it is they were not the first planters of it R. It is likely indeed to be so C. But to returne Vnder Diocletian in the three hundreth yeare great persecution was made by that Tyrant in al Christian Churches and among the rest the Church of South Britaine was also persecuted by his Deputies for the which many fled to Crachlint King of Scots who did louingly receiue them and assigned to them the Isle of Mâ—n and erected there a Temple dedicated to Christ called otherwise Sodoâ—eÌ„sis ecclesia wherin they peaceably worshipped Christ Iesus and this our owne Chronicle witnesseth After this in the dayes of Fethelmacus which was about the â—ift yeare of the Emperour Constantius there came into this Countrie one Regulus Albatus out of Achaia a Prouince in Graecia but the Countrie was conuerted also long before hee came Therefore â—iergusâ— King of the Pictes gaue him his Palace hee had in Fyâ—â—e where hee built the Church of Saint Andrew desire you still to heare any more R. Truely I am very glad to heare that we haue beene so ancient Christians and yet there remaines a doubt in my heart that the Gospell came neuer hither but out of Rome C. Remember you not what I haue prooued seeing wee are but three yeares in Christianitie behinde Rome thinke you in so small time they did so encrease that they spread out their branches to the vttermost parts of the earth Yea rather if you will reade the Storie you shall finde that for three hundreth yeares wherein are many three yeares they were so vexed by the persecutors that they could not get their owne Church stablished as after it was when God relented the persecution But to come nâ—erer yet vnto you whether hee was an Apostle or an Apostolicke man that first planted our Church I will giue you two great reasons that wee haue our Faith from the Greeke or East Churches not froÌ„ the Latine or West Church R. Nowe that is the point and I pray you once cleare it for I thinke if you euince that the Church of Rome in her best estate hath beene vnto vs a sister Church but no mother church C. My first Argument is from Petrus Cluniacensis Abbas writing to Bernard who affirmes that for seuen or eight hundred yeares after Christ the Scottishmen did celebraâ—e the Passeouer all this time after the Grecian maner not aster the Romane R. I vnderstand not that C. Then I will tell you it Soone after the dayes of the Apostles there happened a controuersie betweene the Churches of the East and West about the celebration of the Passeouer They of the East did obserue it the fourteenth day of the Moone that same day wherein the Iewes kept their Passeouer They againe of the West thinking they would haue no communion with the Iewes did celebrate it the next Sabboth after the fourteenth day Polïcrates with the orientall Bishops alledged the authoritie of Iohn Philip Policarp yea the prescript of the Euangell for their warrant Victor and the Bishops of the West alledged for their warrant Saint Peter Saint Paul Such as were more moderate misliked to see a Schisme in the Church for so small a matter Irenaeus iudgeth Obseruationes illâ—s esse liberâ—s Socrates Ostendit nec Victorem nec Policraten iustam habuisse causam de festo Paschatis tam odiose digladiandi Nam nec Seruator inquit nec Apostoli 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Seeing neither our Sauiour nor his Apostles by any Law hath commanded the obseruation thereof R. Truely it was a lamentable thing to see so sore a renting of the Church for so small a cause C. It was indeede and yet that in this controuersie the Churches of Britaine obserued the manner of the Easterne Church it is an argument they reuerenced the East Church for their mother from whome the grace of the Gospell had come to them R. It is indeede likely If these Churches had beene planted by Romish Doctors they would haue also receiued the Romish ceremonies C. But there is yet an other Argument Galsrid the Cardinall in his Storie of Britaine which hee wrote in the seuen hundreth yeare witnesseth that the Britans would not receiue Augustinus Iunior the Legate of Gregorie the great nor yet acknowledge any primacie of the Bishop of Rome ouer them An euident argument they esteemed not the Romish Church to be their Mother Church To cleare this you shall know that in the sixt hundreth yeare Gregorius magnus sent into England Augustinus Iunior to perswade the Church there to receiue the Romish ceremonies which to that day they had not knowne as Altars Images Vestiments Crosses wherein albeit hee had not such speedie successe as hee would yet at length did he obtaine it and intended also to effect the like in the Church of Scotland but was strongly resisted by Daganus and Columbanus Qui nullam in ritibus mutationem admittere voluerunt Againe in the seuen hundreth yeare a great schisme was in the church of Britaine some refusing the Ceremonies of the Romish Church keeping still their ancient custome for the which they pretended the authoritie of Saint Iohn the Evangelist Others againe embracing the Romish ceremonies which part waxed the stronger in that King Osuvius inclined to them Alway the matter was debated with so hot contention that from words it came to wepons and twelue hundreth Church-men were slain that refused the Romish Ceremonies this is all the good the Britaine Church got from the Popes Legate yet the euill rested not heere for at length in the eight hundreth yeare by thâ— perswasion of one Ecbertus this part of the Isle was also induced to receiue the Romish Ceremonies and thereafter their corrupt doctrine And thus did the Bishop of Rome first obtaine superioritie ouer vs and disgrace by his foolish inventions the glorie and sinceritie of the Churâ—h of Britaine By all this discourse which truely I haue made vnto you it may be evident how vainely and without a cause the defenders of the Romish Church brag of their ancient Primacie ouer all Churches and specially how far they wrong this Isle when they will haue Rome caled a mother to the Churches here which vnlesse you will adde one syllable cannot be admitted for indeed she is a Stepmother and in a word that Infamous Whoore of Babel who as shee hath corrupted the Churches with her abhominable Superstitions no maruell if shee hath at length infected vs also That Rome is Bâ—bel I will shew GOD willing in our next conference where we shall yet more abuÌ„dantly
of Christs ordinance and by their owne confession a plaine departing from Antiquitie What thinke you of this one instance R. I will aduise vpon it C. Doe so but I pray you fight not against the cleare light and remember that all bee it the Doctours of your Church pretend alwayes Antiquitie Antiquitie the â—athers the fathers yet this one instance among a hundreth prooues them to bee fathers oâ— nouelties what say yee Tell me like yee to heare any more of Vincentius R. I am content but let mee know â—irst what writer hee is and whose Translation is that C. He was a French-man he writ this Treatise in the fiue hundreth yeare of Christ and heere it is Translated by Ninian Winzet a Masse-priest of the Church of Rome which yee cannot refuse R. Reade on what sayes he further C. There is a commaund giuen to Timothie Deposâ—um serua which in all good reason should binde his successors Thus hee expounds it Keepe that which is committed to thee not that which is inuented by thee which thou hast receiued not which thou hast imagined wherein thou art no Author inuenter sorger but a keeper not a Law-maker but a Law-keeper not a guide but a follower saue that which is giuen thee saue the talent of Catholick faith vnbroken vncorrupt what thou hast receiued render it againe if thou hast receiued Gold render Gold againe slippe not in one thing in stead of an other for Gold lay not downe lead nor brasse R. I heare all that and I thinke hee writes like a sound Diuine C. Then take heedâ— the Apostle protests he dâ—liuered that to the Corinthians which hee had receiued from the LORD IESVS R. I know that C. Hee commanded Timothie and all others his successors in the worke of the Ministerie to doe the like R. And good reason so they should C. Then there is the point How is it that the Church of Rome takes on her this libertie to doe otherwise R. Wherein doe they otherwise C. Haue you forgot so soone Saint Paul deliuered to the people as wel the Cup as the Bread because hee receiued it from Christ Iesus how is it then that the Church of Rome takes away the Cup from the people R. Why May not the Church make Lawes C. No such Lawes as derogate to Christs Lawes for in that sense you heard Vincentius denie that they are Law-makers but Law-keepers I pray you giue place to the truth and consider how little cause they haue to bragge of Antiquitie who dare make the like of that Albeit Christ and his Apostles and the Primitiue Church did this yet we for good causes will doe othâ—rwayes R. Alway that is but one â—oint C. But seeing you cannot denie but they haue broken and corrupted the auncient Catholicke faith in one point you haue the lesse cause to beleeue or defend them in the rest vnlesse you wil incurre Gods curse threatned on them that pares or addes to his word R. The Lord saue me from his curse C. Amen but pray first that the Lord would saue you from the sin that deserues his curse R. God grant it C. And so I wish from my heart it may be But I pray you consider as in one Sacrament you are guiltie of sacrilegious paring so in both you are guiltie of sacrilegious adding and changing and so cannot â—schew the curse if you abide in Communion with the Church of Rome that now is R. How So C. As yee haue taken Wine from the Bread so yee haue added Water to the Wine which is a new inuention and forgerie albeit your Doctours to excuse it cast it on Alexander the first yet it is certain it was not in Christs institution and by your owne confessions was brought in many yeares after Christ and so should bee reiected as a noueltie R. That is but a smal thing and there may be many reasons to excuse it C. No not one Let no man bee wiser then God Who dare adde to the ordinance of Christ But you haue done worse in Baptisme adding Spittle Oyle and Salt to the element of Water was this done by Christ or his Apostles You father the Oyle vpon Siluester but confesse it was not vsed in the Church in Baptisme before him and so it is an other ancient noueltie R. It may bee they haue thought good to vse these for reasons and respects which I know not but this pertaines not to the substance of Baptisme and can not annull it C. I graunt they doe not annull Baptisme yet are they inexcusable who in the smallest thing dare alter the institution of Christ Are not his Sacraments the Seales of his couenant R. I confesse they are C. Why then since it is treason to pare or adde any thing to the forme of the Princes Signet is it not Sacrilegious boldnessâ— to pare or adde to Christs Sacrament But least you should thinke the controuersiâ— onely to bee about these things you shall know that except the Article of the Trinitie the Church of Rome hath left no Article of our Faith vncorrupted so that it is most certaine This Church of Rome with the doctrine and iurisdiction nowe maintained by her was not in the Primitiue Church R. O but I wil tell you what I once heard concerning that matter from one of their Doctors That there is a great difference betweene a Church in her infancie and her older and riper age For as it growes in age so may it and should it increase in many things which it had not in the infancie thereof C. Nowe I see you speake from such knowledge as the great labours of the Iesuites workes in the hearts of their captiues and because it is your last and greatest defence I will let you still see out of the words of Vincentius which you will like better then mine that this makes nothing for you R. Come on let vs see what sayes Vincentius C. He grants There should be an encrâ—ase in Faith but not a change of Faith R. That is a strange distinction and yet so honest that in truth I dare not gaine-say it C. Heare him then hee expounds the two parts of his distinction To encrease saith he is when a thing biding in it selfe is more amplified To change is when a thing going out of it selfe is translated turned into an other To make this cleare hee illustrates it by a proper similitude Let sayes hee the Religion of soules follow the nature of bodies which albeâ—t in processe of yeres they grow yet they remaine the same the same members the same Ioyntes are in Children which are in Men though in the one stronger and greater in the other smaller and weaker but if the shape bee turned in any forme not of the owne kind or any thing bee eked to the number of the members or taken from the same then either the body perisheth or becomes monstrous or at the least becomes weake So in Religion if wee shall begin to mixe noueltie with
thinke it goes very hard with them when their best Doctors can say no more in defence of Rome but it was Babel or it will be Babel that is either Antichrist sate there or will sett there C. I hope you shall thinke much more before you goe for now I will improue their distinction and let you see it is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours nor the Towne of Rome in the last time of the World that here is called Babel but the whorish Church of Rome gouerned by Apostated Popes R. Make that cleare and the cause is wonne Babel in the Reuelation is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours but Rome once Christian now corrupted vnder Popes C. It is euident S. Iohn prophecies of the state of Rome as it will bee in the dayes of Antichrist so sayes the Iesuite Viega Haec est quarta visio huius operis eaque illustrissima ad Antichristi tempora pertinens So also sayes the Iesuite Ribera a ca. 12. ad 21. Est huius libri pars secunda iota ad Antichristum eiusque tempora pertinet But the dayes of persecuting Emperours were not the dayes of Antichrist if they so say they destroy all their owne doctrine concerning Antichrist and therefore this prophecie of Babel is not to bee vnderstood of the Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours Secondly Ethnicke Rome as yet had not embraced the Gospell and was not married with Christ and therefore cannot be this Whore which Carthusian their owne man expounds to be An adulterous Whore You shall finde no people in holy Scripture charged with spirituall Whoredom but such as haue beene married with Christ none can bee Apostates from the faith who neuer stoode in the faith there must bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This whoorish Babel then can not be Ethnicke Rome vnmarried with Christ. Seeing themselues doe grant it is Rome it must bee Rome once Christian but now corrupted once Apostolicke standing in the faith now Apostatiâ—ke fallen from the faith Thirdly this Whore of Babel hath a cup in her hand full of abominations and the filthines of her fornicationâ— wherewith shee makes drunken the inhabitants of the earth By this golden cup Berengandus their owne man vnderstands Documenta erroribus plena And so this Babel can not signifie Rome vnder Emperors who subdued the world by force of Sword and plaine violence but must signifie Rome vnder Popes which hath deceiued the world by false doctrine and lying myracles Fourthly this Babel is called the mother of Whoredomes and abominations in the earth which not onely her selfe hath played the Whoore corrupting the true worship of God but hath inforced her corruptions and superstitions vpon othâ—rs Now it is knowne that olde Rome sought no more but subiection of bodies leauing the consciences of people free to any kind of worshippe they pleased They subdued the Iewes and forced them to pay tribute but left them to their owne Religion yea so farre were they from inforcing their superstitious worship vpon any nation that by the contrarie themselues were infected with the superstitions of all nations as is euident by their Pantheon which they erected in the honour of all Gods And so it is not Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours which heere is called the Mother of whoredomes Fiftly the name of this Babel is mysterium in quo aliud cernitur aliud intelligitur Quia enim tot simulatis virtutibus decoratur non omnibus mulieris huius prauatas innotescet sed viris iusâ—is prudentibus So then by this Babel some mysticall enemie is vnderstood being indeede an enemie but in shew pretending friendship and therfore called afterward Gog and not Magog that is not an open and plain enemy as is the Turke But Gog a couered enemie for this cause figured also before by a beast with two hornes looking like a Lambe but speaking like the Dragon To this purpose sayes IEROME Simulabit se ducem faederis And Hilarius that Antichrist shall bee contrarie to Christ vnder a â—orme of fained and hypocriticall godlinesse And Chrysostome Antichrist must bee knowne by his doctrine not by his titles miracles nor words of godlinesse And therefore it is a silly defence of the Iesuites The Pope say they prayers humbly to God and calles himselfe seruus seruorum Dei therefore is not an aduersarie for the Question is not what he calles himsâ—lfe but what hee is But to hold vpon this point it is euident by what which I haue said that by Babel here is not meant Rome Ethnicke nor yet Rome which at the last shall rebell for both these are open enemies but Rome vnder Popes a mysticall enemie Sixthly in this Reuelation there are two women described the one Chap. 12. clothed with the Sunne which is CHRIST hauing on her head twelue Starres for a Garland the glorie of the true Church is the doctrine of the twelue Apostles and vnder her feete the Moone figuring this mutable world This woman as themselues confesse represents the true Church The other woman described Chap. 17. is arayed in Purple Scarlet Gold and precious stones voide of inward beautie and chastitie shee sets forth her selfe with all externall brauerie that shee may drawe many louers to her Now I say seeing the first woman signifies the true Church as themselues confesse and afterward is called the Lâ—mbes wife why doe they not â—ee that this whorish woman must signifie the false Church And since they grant that Babel is Rome what else can the whoore of Babel be but the whoorish Church of Rome And therefore their owne Doctours expounding that prophecie of Saint Iohn Babel is fallen and become an habitation of diâ—els Ribera expounds it of an externall desolation accâ—rding to that of â—say prophâ—cied of the first Babel The â—im and Zâ—m shall leape there But Viega Nobis etiam illud dicendum viâ—etur cum Arethâ Primasio Ambrosio Ansberto Haimone idololatriam eius vrbis significari desecturamque esse Romam a fide atque adcò futuram esse habitationem daemoniorum ob execranda slagitia iâ—olotriae superstitioneÌ„ expounds it also of Rome her falling from the faith which hee sayes is a thing which will be but we say according to truth is a thing that is done already the foretold defection is come Antichrist that man of sinne is discouered God by the breath of his mouth is dayly consuming him THE FOVRTH DAYES CONFERENCE Wherein is declared that ROME is the seate of Antichrist C. GOod morrow Sir how doe you to day R. The best I can C. It is most like you haue not rested well this night R. To say the truth Thinking on our conference made my rest the lesse C. It agrees but ill with you to heare the Church of Rome conuicted of Apostasie R. I thinke so indeede and still will so thinke till ye resolue this question what is the cause there being so many VVise and Learned men in the Popes Church that they cannot see