in prison or not he maye well examyne the truthe of the matter For truth ruleth in conscience what soo euer the order of the lawe be and therfore if the appelle in an appele of morder be founde gyltie the iudge of his owne knowelege knewe that he is not gyltie he may not gyue iugemeÌ„t agaynste hym but must rather resygne his office BIS I agree well there but I put case that the appelle in thy case be founde gyltie by false verdite the iuge by examination of wytnesse and by confessioÌ„ of the same iury also come to perfyt knowlege that the appelle is not gilty he may neuer the les in that case geue iugement and is bounde to do it for he toke the examination against the order of the law therfore he must remoue that knowlege bicause he is com to it of his owne wronge ageinst the order of the lawe euen so it is in this case The king ne yet his chanceler neither ought not to haue newli exaiÌ„ed the mater seing that it was sufficieÌ„tly tried proued before in the spiritual court therfore they must remoue put away the conscience that they haue gotten by that vnlawfull examination and beware that they doo not attempte soo farre ageynste the lawe an other tyme. SAL. Though the iudge in the sayde case of appele dyd ageynst the lawe to examyn new witnes yet it is not like to this case For in that case of appele the verdite is of recorde in the same court and it is giuen by auctorite of the same lawe that he sitteth as iuge to iuge vpon it is also tried after the order of the same law so that vpon that matter ther is no ferther trial wherfore I agre wel that he ought not to haue takeÌ„ ther any newe examination but in this case the sentence is giuen in an other court and after another lawe than the chauncellour is sette to iudge vppon For he is sette to iudge after conscience and not only after the order of the lawe spirituall nor temporall but in fewe cases and also the proces of excommunication is to punishe synne and to maynteyne vertue but what punysshement of synne and mayntenaunce of vertue is it if the kynge kepe hym that is no offender in prysone And therfore I thynke the kynge or his chauncellour may well take a newe examination in the matter and do therafter BIS I fele thy conceyte well but yet surely yf suche examination be vsed hit wyll be thoughte by many that the spirituall iurisdiction is therby greatly confounded and that the kynge and his lawes do littel in fauour of it SALEM I se well thou styckest soore to the matter and therfore to ease thy mynd somwhat therin I wyl moue the of two thynges BIS What be they SA One is this if the custome were that whan the excommunicate is in prison vppon the wrytte of Excommunicato capiendo that he shoulde be kepte styll in prison tylle he haue satisfied the churche whether he be ryghtwisely excommunicate or not were this a lawefull custome BIS I thynke naye SAL. And this pretence that thou styckest so moche vpon that there shoulde be no examination of the matter is of the same effect The secoÌ„de is if the parlyamente dyd put clerely away the wrytte of Excommunicato capiendo and lefte the matter in suche case that the ordinaries shulde iustifie al excommunicates by the censures of the churche in the beste maner they coude without any helpe of the kynge or of his lawes shulde the parlyament therby do any wronge to the keys of the churche BY. I thynke nay for the power of the clergie concernynge suche excommunications shulde neuer the les stond styll in her full strength But yet it shoulde breake a good laudable custome of the realme that was fyrst begon in fauour of the clerge of the spiritual iurisdiction SAL. thou sayste euen truth and my meanyng is not that I wolde haue that custome broken but that it shulde appere that thoughe hit were broken that yet no maÌ„ had cause to complaine as thoughe the lybertie of the churche were therby brokin or the keis violate wherfore me thinketh it more expedient for the clergie to take this matter as it is that is to saye that the kynge and his lawes be as well contente to haue suche rebelles as haue deserued punishment yet wyl not obey the keys of the church correctio as they be but yet that the kynge his lawes shoulde therfore in any case be compelled whether they wolde or not to punishe an Innocente it is not resonable thus it shuld seme to be the more indiffereÌ„t way more accordynge with iustice that the mater be examined before the king that if it appere thervpon that the partie offended not that he be deliuerid out of prison that the ordryng of the excoÌ„munication be thervpon lefte to the conscience of the byshop theÌ„ to charge the kinges conscience or his chauncellours eyther with kepynge of hym in prison And then to that thou hast said before that if such excoÌ„munications be taken that it wyl be thought by many that the kyng his lawes do litel in fauour of the spiritual iurisdiction I pray the be iuge therin thy self whether it be moch or litel that the kyng doth whaÌ„ he only vpon the certificat of the bishop taketh the ê‘tie leyeth him in prison there kepith him til he either satisfieth the church or els if he complaine that he hath wronge examineth the mater he being in prison how be it I think that the kiÌ„g in such case may if he se cause let the ê‘tie to bayl haÌ„ging the examination though the shereffe by the reson of the statute of westmÌ„ i. may not do it And nowe to our first matter If the kynge wolde iudge vppon Simony and vsury thynkest thou that he shulde offende the keys BYZANCE I thynke soo for symonye and vsurye be prohibited by the lawe of god and it belongeth to the clergi to declare what is the lawe of god and what not SA Though symonie and vsury be prohibite by the law of god yet that proueth not that princis may not therfore hold ple therof for takyng away of an other mannes goodes and also periurye be prohibyte by the lawe of god and yet princes holde plee therof and thoughe Symonye and vsurye be prohibite by the lawe of god yet it is not declared by the lawe of god what is symonie and vsery and what not And it semeth that princis takyng to them spirituall men as theyr counsailours maye doo that well ynough And if it were ordered that for symonye that the kynges courte shulde holde plee I suppose it wolde doo moche good For hit is not vnlyke but that manye offende therin and yet I here but of lyttell correction in that behalfe And therfore thoughe the kynge iudged vppon symonie and vserye I suppose he offended not
⧠THE ADDICIONS OF SALEM AND BYZANCE LONDINI IN AEDIBVS THOMAE BERTHELETI REGII IMPRESSORIS ANNO DO M.D.XXXIIII ▪ Cum priuilegio The introduction BISAN I haue many tymes sith the makyng of our fyrst dialoge which is called Salem Byzāce remebred the Articles of the treatise that is called the tretise concernyng the Diuisyon betwixt the spiritualtie the tēporaltie whiche was the verye occasion of makynge of our sayd fyrst dialoge And I thynke verily that yf the abusions that be recited in the sayde treatyse and other lyke were refourmed great peace and quietnes wold shortly folowe amonge the people And therfore if thou woldest my frende Salem to encorage them that haue good zeale towarde a refourmation of suche abusions take the peyne to recyte some mo thynges that be mysused and ouer that woldest deuise some meanes howe they myght also be reformed I thynke it wolde do greatte good SALEM I shall my frende Byzance with good wyll do that in me is to accomplysshe thy desyre ¶ Of dyuers abusyons concernynge some of the seuen sacramentes and dyuers other thynges as here after foloweth The fyrste Chapytre SAL Many curates haue taken vppon them to saye that they be not bounde to minister the sacramentes to the people onles they be required and that speciallye the sacrament of extreme vnction whiche commonly is called anoyllynge And yet the truthe is that they are bounde to gyue a great diligence therto them self and specially to admonyshe theym that be aboute the sycke persone that they may haue knowledge when nede shall require And therfore if any dye without that sacrament for lacke of suche good diligence of the curate surely it is in hym a great offence 2. ¶ Also it hath ben a great default in many places that the curates wyll not synge masse nor dirige for none of their paryshens at theyr buryals no more than they wyll do for straungers that dyed within the parysshe excepte they haue money for theyr labour for sythe they haue of theyr paryshens theyr tythes offrynges and dyuers other profytes and commodities as curates customably haue Charitie wolde that they shulde burye them especially that be householders and theyr chylderne with dirige and masse freely without takynge any thynge for it but to saye masse and dirige for straungers they be not bounde therto but of their charite But yet to bury all them frely that dye within the paryshe they are bounde of duetie to do it ¶ Also it is greatte trouble and vexation to the people in many places that the sacrament of confirmation is taken fro the propre curates and is gyuen only to byshoppes For therby the people in some places be many tymes put to greatte labours and expences in gyuynge attendaunce to the bysshoppes And also many chylderne be therby in some countreyes longe vnconfyrmed and sometyme dye without it where if the curates myght confyrme theym as they myght fyrste they shulde be confyrmed with lesse labour and be in moche more greater suertie to haue the sacrament then they be nowe And sythe byshoppes haue taken that auctoritie to them selfe and no greatter consideration apperynge why they shulde do so then there dothe It myght happely cause some symple men to esteme that there is not suche necessitie in that sacrament as there is in dede For they may happely thinke that if there were the byshops wolde not put the children in suche ieoperdie to be so longe without it as they be ofte by that occasion and no greatter cause to moue them to it then they thynke there is ¶ The prohybitinge also of bysshops to graunt pardons hath letted greatly the deuocyon to pardons and the takynge of money for herynge of confessions and specially at pardons hathe also done right great hurt For there is a sayeng the mo confessions the greatter profyt Wherby it is ment that the profyte in heryng confessions is moche regarded And that hath made many tymes ryght short confessions and also as light as hasty absolutions which perauenture hath made some vnware and vnlerned persons to haue the lesse regarde to be confessed 5. ¶ And why shuld the power of absolution that was gyuen by Christe to all priestes be generally taken from them in any case and specially from curates that be admytted to be sufficiēt to haue cure of soules and be cōmytted only to byshops or to theyr deputies which deputies percase be not many tymes so sufficient as the curates be fro whome it is takē so that it semeth that the power of pristes is restrayned in that behalfe by the lawe of man without cause resonable and wolde therfore be reformed 6. ¶ Also it wolde be playnly declared where the curate may prohibite his parishens to be houseled where not And surely it semeth not to stand with charitie that if a paryshener at the tyme of his houselyng lacke money to pay his duetie that he shuld be therfore prohibit of houselynge And sure it is that great grudges haue ensued in tymes past vpon suche matters A prieste if he wyl may go to masse though he be in deedly synne and no manne can prohibite hym but if the curate onely by coniecture thynke his parysshener in deedly synne he wyll prohibite him 7. ¶ Also curious buildynges of spirituall men and the apparel therof whiche sometyme be apparelled with vaine stories stereth more theym that beholdeth it to vanitie and to a worldly loue then to any mekenes or deuotion And though it be right conuenient that byshops and other spirituall rulers haue conuenient dwellyng places after their degree yet all wolde be ordered to the honour of god and to the good example of the people ¶ Also it diminysheth the deuocion of priestes greattely in many places that there haue ben so many chapplens and seruynge priestes For they that be vniuersally conuersant amonge laye people and be bounde to obserue worldely attendaunce as lay men are can neuer haue their minde so perfitly to prayer deuotion as they that be curates or be continually resident in churches For lyke as there is a mery prouerbe in places of courte that the very walles teache the lawe and that euerye busshe in the countrey teareth away a pece so it maye be saide that the very walles of the churche teache deuotion and that worldly company driueth it awaye ageyne And whenne they be in youthe brought vp in suche worldly company it wyll be harde for them in age to sette their mynde to prayer and contemplation And surely if lay menne wolde be contented for preseruynge of deuotion in priestes to forbeare the seruyce and familyaritee of theym more then they haue done in tyme past and wolde here masse and diuine seruice whenne they myghte conueniently at their parysshe churches at the leste on holydays and when they may here none wold supply it with prayer or some other good werkes they shulde more please almyghty god therby and more shewe them selfe to honour the sacrament
departed is in Helle onles it be proued by scripture that it is so as it is of Cayme Iudas and some other more stronger he offendeth that wyll opinatiuely saye that he whome the churche hath canonised is in helle But though it be agreed that it is an offence to say that he that the churche hath canonised for a saynt is no saynt yet why it shuld be herisi to say he is no saint sith it may be true as he saith and as the said glose affirmeth that it may be I se no reson For they them self that haue canonised him knowe not ne can not know assuredly that he that is so canonised is in heuen but that they haue a good truste that he is so For the wytnesse maye deceyue them as is said before And accordyng to the same effecte it is sayde Extra de senten excommunicationis a nobis secundo that the iugement of god is so knytte to the truthe that it neuer deceyueth ne can not be deceyued but the iugemēt of the church foloweth oft times the opinion of men so it may be vntrue deceiue and also lightly be deceyued And more ouer one of the principal intentes of suche canonisatiōs is when any opinion riseth amonge the people that suche a man is a saynt and that some begyn to honour hym and some haply saye they doo not welle to sette the mattier in suche an order that there shall be no scismes thervppon amonge the people But yf any opinion ryse amonge the people that any is holye and blessed and myracles be doone than it is suffered that the people maye honour theym yf they be not prohybite by the superiours not withstondynge the sayde Chapitre Audiuimus ¶ And vnder this maner kyng Henry the syxte and mayster Iohn̄ Shorn̄ be suffered to be worshypped which be not canonysed And what a canonisation trowest thou had the apostels and such other holy men in the begynnynge of the churche BISAVNCE I trowe none but that the holy goste wytnessed in the hartes of all the people that they were holy and blessed and that suffised without any ferther canonisation SALEM Surely it is as thou sayste but of some other newe sayntes it hath not benne alwaye so but whanne somme hath holden one veray holy an other hath douted at it And therfore to kepe the people in a good quyetnes in that behalfe Canonysacyons haue benne made not that the people shoulde be bounde therby to beleue their holynes as to an artycle of the faythe but to gyue theym occasyon the rather to agree therin in one sythe so many great clerkes haue allowed the wytnesse in profe of his holynesse as there hathe doone ¶ And therfore though it were admytted that he were an herityke that wold obstinately holde opinyon that the churche gathered to gether in the holye gooste maye erre in a thynge that is of the fayth that this is of the same effect for as moch as the canonisation of a sayncte perteyneth to the Faythe bycause that in the inquery of his fayth and of his moralle vertues and of his doynge myracles stondethe all the mattier hit maye be aunswered that the cases be not lyke for two causes First for that such a canonisation is not appoynted by the lawes to the holle clergie ne to the generall counsell but to the see of Rome onely and vndoubtedly that see may erre deceyue and be deceyued For that see maketh not the churche Seconde in such a canonisation it suffiseth if the wytnes affyrme that he was a man of a true faith without rehersynge all the articles of the faithe in speciall And therfore the determination of the articles of the faith foloweth not thervppon And that the churche maye not erre in thynges that be of the faithe I take it to be vnderstonde where any great dout ryseth concernynge the faith And that that dout is commytted to the churche wherby I vnderstonde mooste proprely the generall Counsayle that they then may not erre And therto I can ryghte well agree For it is not to thynke that our lorde that is the very truthe wolde leue his people without a dewe meane how to come to knowlege of the truthe for that wyll not leaue any one particular person in suche doubt but that he may come to the knowledge of the truthe yf he wyll fully put his trust in hym And therfore it is sayd 2. par xx Cum ignoremus quid facere debeamus hoc solum residui habemus vt oculi nostri ad te dirigantur that is to say Lorde when we be ignorant and wotte not what to do this only remayneth to vs for our comfort that we lift our eien vp to the as who saythe that suffiseth vnto vs so that we shall not erre But in suche a canonisatyon though all the hole clergie dyd it they might erre For it is but mater in dede and more stronger these of Rome may erre therin BYZ. This maner of resonynge is daungerous For hit myghte lyghtely induce the people to sette at nought the order and decrees of theyr superiours SAL. As to that thou knowest well that no man hath power to make lawes to bynd other but he haue auctoritie therto of god And yf it can be proued that the clergie haue auctorite of god to canonise a saint and that they be all heritikes that beleue it not it must be obeyed our lorde forbeade it shulde be otherwyse But if it can not be proued that they haue that auctoritie by the lawe of god but that they haue hit onely by a custome and sufferaunce of Princis thenne the reasonynge of hit shall doo good to cause the matter be knowen as it is And yet maye the sayntes that in tyme paste haue benne taken for holye and blessed be styll so taken ¶ And thenne also shall hit not be taken for herysye that is none in dede but the verye trewe intente of canonysations shal be knowen ¶ And I suppose farther that it were no greatte mattier whether any were canonysed hereafter or not yf the people wolde be quyete withoute it and not be soo newe fangle to pylgrymages as somme haue benne in tyme paste and thenne to kepe the people in quietenesse and in good ordre in all thynges kynges and princis are moste specyally bounden to before any other BYSANCE Pryncis canne not determyne who hathe a ryghte faythe and who hathe not ne what is a Myracle and what not ¶ SALEM To examyne all the partycular artycles of the faythe is not necessarye in Canonysations as I haue sayde before and what is a miracle and whatte not Pryncis and theyr counsaylles maye haue knoweledge sufficiently And therfore as me meth it pertayneth mooste specially to theym to order and appoynte suche canonysacyons atte a generalle Counsaylle rather then to any other takyng the clergye to them as theyr counsaylours in that behalfe But for as moch as Princis haue in tyme past lyttell regarded suche small matters beyng
church for their absolution And this article is also holden for lawe in this realme to this daye For in case that the iuge spirituall wyl not assoyle the parti without restitution where by the lawes of the realme he ought to do it the kynge may vppon a contempte commaunde hym to doo it And if he wyll nedely procede to compell restitution a prohibition lyth And that is the very cause why an excoÌ„mengement certified before the kynges iustice by the pope was neuer alowed in this realm bycause the kynge myght not write to Rome to make the absolution in case that by his lawes the ê‘tie ought to haue it ¶ Also an nother article is that the churche shall not defende goodes that be forfayte ¶ Also that plees of det belonge to the kingis court though an othe be made ¶ Also that the sonne of a bonde man shal not be made prest without liceÌ„ce of the lorde These three laste articles be holdeÌ„ for law in this realm to this day And yet it is saide that saint Thomas resisted theym ¶ And as to the thyrde artycle of the said thre laste articles the lawe is this as I take it that if the sonne of a bond man be made priest without the lordes licence that yet he is a bondman as he was before and the lorde may compell him to do him seruice as to a priest belongeth before any other And though the truth were that saint Thomas resisted these articles al that he coulde and that he is yet neuertheles canonised as a saint that proueth nothyng those articles to be vnlaufull For yf he in his conscieÌ„ce thought them vnlaufull that suffiseth to hym as I haue said before ¶ And more ouer if all the clergie of christendome wolde prohibite the saide articles or any article of the law of this realme that is not against the law of god nor the law of reson that prohibitioÌ„ shuld not be of effect in this realme And ther be dyuers other artycles in bokes legendis wherin he resisted the lawe of the realme without cause if it be as the saide bokes doo testifie whiche I remytte to the iudgement of theym that wyll take the peyne to rede them And ouer that in the bokes of some pardoners that haue gone about for saynt Thomas be conteyned many and dyuers friuolous and vntrue thynges for procurynge of money as it is of this article that ne had saynt Thomas ben no man shuld haue sette his chylde to scole nor haue eaten in his house pygge gose nor capon but he shulde haue payed a fyne to the kynge And dyuers other thynges be thus imagyned wherby the people be greattely illuded and deceyued and saynt Thomas right highly displesed For he loueth no vntruth and yet they haue bene suffered to passe ouer frome yere to yere without correction doste thou not thynke my frende Bysaunce that suche thynges wolde be reformed BYZAN Forsoth I thinke it right expedient that rulers and gouernours loke well vpon suche matters But yet somme men wyll parauenture thynke that it is not conuenient for lay men to speake of suche highe thynges as pertayne to great clerkes and hygh lerned men And I haue harde some men say my selfe that before laye men spake of suche high matters the worlde was in good peace and quietnes and that sith they medled therwith the worlde was neuer well but ful of trouble diuision and stryfe And therfore it wyll perauenture be better for the and me to let these matters passe tyll our lorde shall put the rulers in mynde to loke vpon them and se theim refourmed then to speke any more of them and lyttyll effecte or none to folowe of our spekyng SAL. The more that the rulers here of the gruges that be amonge the people the more wyll they regarde theym and wyll the rather sette to theyr assistaunce to helpe to auoyde them sythe they be as well to the high displeasure of almighty god as to the great hurte of the common welth of all the people And I thynke verilye that a common welth shal neuer ryse as longe as these gruges continue And therfore I trust our spekyng shal not be clerely in vain sithe some causis of the said grudges diuisions may happly be put in mynde therby whiche elles shoulde not haue ben remembrid And ther be many presidentes by the which it appereth that laye menne haue reasonned in ryghte hight matters Fyrste when the statute of .xxv. of Edward the third that is called De aduocationibus was made was it not as thou supposest argued reasoned whether the parliament might set remedy in suche cases where the pope made collatioÌ„s or reseruatioÌ„s to any benefices within this realm And who resoned that matter as thou thinkest but the lordes temporal the coÌ„mons verily none For the lordes spirituall durst not therin resist the pope And no more they durst when the questioÌ„ was asked in the parlyament Anno .xvi. Rich. ii whether the pope myghte translate a byshop in this realme without the kynges assent whervnto the bishops made a protestation that it was not theyr intente to saye but that the pope myghte make suche translacions by the lawes of the churche but they sayde it was agaynst the kyng and his crowne if he dyd it And the comons sayd that they wolde sticke with the kinges right in it vnto the deth And the lordes temporal saide that they wolde be with him with al their power And it t s not to thynke that these aunsweres were made sodenly without great reasonyng before And who shoulde reasone hit but the lordes temporalle and the commons and specially they that were lerned in the lawes of the realme ¶ Also sithe it is recyted in the writ De excommunicato deliberando that the king at the peticion of the bishop coÌ„maÌ„ded the shyreff to iustifie suche a certein person by his body as a maÌ„ excoÌ„municate coÌ„teÌ„pning the keis of the church til he satisfied the church c. with diuers other thynges coÌ„monly vsed to be put into the sayde writte whiche be here omytted are not they then that be lerned in the lawes of the realme specially they that shall be of the kynges counsell boundeÌ„ to aduertise the king what is a contemnynge of the keyes of the churche and what not so that he shulde not in such case do any thynge agaynst the keys of the churche I trowe no man wyl say but they be For els the kynge shulde happely be enforced to gyue credence to spiritual men in maters concernyng their iurisdiction ageynst his owne It is not therfore conuenient for any man to say that lay men ought not to reson the power of the churche For if it dimynishe the right of the crowne waste the substaunce of the realme prohibite the laboure or lyuynge of the people they may well speake of it And also ar bounde to speake of it specially they that be lerned in the lawes of the realme