either a lawfull Minister or one who stands in place of such who in some degree preacheth or at least publisheth by reading the word of God and administreth the Sacraments to the people therefore in charitie they ought to be accounted the Church of God Ph. The division of Parishes and such a Ministerie and Ordinances as you speak of are not sufficient to give the Parish Congregation the denomination of a visible Church of Christ For then must almost all the Congregations under the Papacie be visible Churches for amongst them the Parishes are divided and so they were in England almost 340. before any Reformation And those Popish Congregations had the word of God dailie read nay and preached constantly and expounded in manie places by their Friers and Postillers as may be seen by their works in Print Nay and their verie Mass-Books have much of the word of God in them although most miserably corrupted and mingled with their own inventions They have also had both Sacraments amongst the Papists for a long time and have yet at least Calvin Instit l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 11. Baptisme mingled with Popish Ceremonies of which the Cross is the worst and some other footsteps of a true Church And if these had made a Congregation a true Church poore Penry was unwise to publish that a great part of Wales never had the face of a Church of Christ the Parishes being divided and the Churches furnished with such a Ministerie and Ordinances as you speak of Yet he and others have formerly charged the State with refusing the Gospel and rejecting Christ and his pure worship in as much as there was no Reformation although it cost him and others their lives for their boldnes Entri Cook Judit pa. 352. Pr. You speak of dark Corners of the Land as if none were in better condition you may finde amongst the manie thousand Parishes of this Nation manie visible Churches of Christ and mine in particular Ph. I doubt not but there are manie visible Churches of Christ in this Common-wealth and true Ministers of Christ lawfully called But when I pray you became your Parish to be a true visible Church of Christ Pr. My Parish hath been a visible Church ever since it was instituted and the Church founded you know not the contrarie and therefore ought to admit it having so continued beyond the memorie of man until this day Ph. When was your Church founded Pr. You your self have confessed that the Gospel was planted in England before Poperie came to its height and the Ministerie and Churches were then setled and had succession from the Apostles daies shew me when the Succession failed Ph. If I should admit the place that you call Church viz. the meeting Place to have been built before Poperie yet this proves not that the Congregation is a visible Church your succession hath had several interruptions and discontinuance First it is to be considered that the whole Current of Historie agree that the Romans commanded the better part of Brittaine from the time of Julius Caesar until Theodosius the younger which was almost five hundred years and the tenth Persecution about 337. years after Christ during which time there were not above five of the Emperours who were either Christians or shewed favour to Christians but generally all the rest first or last in their times were wicked Persecutors Heathens and worshippers of Idols some of which by exquisite Torments wasted the Churches of Christ and drove the Professors into corners they not daring to meet in publick When the Roman Empire was broken or at least was grown to an ebb the Saxons invaded this Island and about the year foure hundred and fiftie the Brittains were beaten into Wales by Gormundus and thence grew the great Colledge of Moncks at Bangor with whom Austin contended And the Saxons as well as the Romans were Heathens and had their Idol Priests Flammins and Arch Flammins like the late Bishops and arch-Arch-Bishops for dignitie and Power and these continued until about six hundred years after Christ where is now your Succession Pr. But yet there were manie faithful Christians both Pastors and others in the worst times and I could tell you of manie who suffered Martyrdome for Christ's cause in this Nation and if we cannot prove Succession it is rather for want of the light of Historie then for that there were no such Churches or Pastors Nevertheless from the time of the abolishing of the Heathens Hierarchie and Idolatrie which was done by King Ethelbert above a thousand years since we have a verie fair Succession Ph. This indeed manie of you boast of but it makes little for your purpose To omit to speak of the miserie brought upon this Land and the decay of the true Religion by meanes of the incursions or rather Conquests of the Saxons and Danes after Ethelberts time It is certain and you cannot denie it that all your successions both of Ministerie and Parish-Churches came from your Mother the Church or rather the Whore of Rome who had all at her devotion until King Henrie the eight drove out the Pope and kept Poperie Cath. Divine An. Caudreys Case P. 108.109 Bed l. 1. Hist Angl. ca. 22. 27. Pr. Well it s true that for about five hundred years untill the Reformation began the Bishop of Rome usurped authoritie over the Church of England but yet all did not submit alike some faithfull men escaped both Ministers and people as John Wickliff and his followers persecuted by the name of Lollards who grew in great number even in our Countrie about two hundred years before the Reformation From which time of Reformation you cannot denie but that my Parish in particular hath been a true visible Church where there hath been a competent number of faithful people and a Minister who claimed nothing from Rome for the Popes Supremacie was abolished by King Henrie the eight as you now said Ph. If the rejecting of the Popes Supremacie make your Parish a true Church then likewise are the most of the Popish Congregations of France true Churches for they likewise have rejected or refused to receive the Popes Supremacie and have not received the Councel of Trent but have had a Pope a Cardinal of their own for manie years past And Cardinal Richelieu called a Prince of the Church was as great a Pope as William Laud late Prelate of Canterburie Marc. de vulson des Libert de'l Eglise Gallicane lib. 3. pa. 233.234.235 Pr. You cannot denie the Succession of faithful Ministers which if you admit you must also admit the Succession of Churches since the time of Reformation Ph. For your Succession it s a mear dream If at any time there was no visible Parish-Churches then was there no Pastors of those Churches for although there may be a visible Church without a Pastor as when the Pastor dieth the Church is not unchurched yet can there be no Pastor of a Church unless there be such a Church in
the deceased which he contracted by his non-payment of Tythes whilest he was living and ought as well as other Offerings be laid aside according to that Thou shalt not bring the hire of a Whore nor the price of a dog into the house of the Lord c. And what agreement hath the Temple of God with Idols Deut. 23.18 Pr. But now I pray you according to your judgement what must become of all our Churches It seems by your argument if one may believe you they must all be plucked down as the Brownists teach what say you to that Ph. Touching the name CHURCH in your sense I do not greatly like it for it properly signifieth a Companie and is used for the companie of the faithful yet for the present I shall admit the word by a Metonymie to signifie the place of their meeting And I do not conceive there is any necessitie to pluck these Churches or meeting places down I confess I put no holiness in them and think the Congregation may as well meet in any other convenient place and that there is neither Legal nor Evangelical holiness in them And that plucking down all the Popish and superstitious pictures and Monuments of Idolatrie I do not mean the Arms of men of renown and placing a faithfull Ministerie there is a sufficient purging of these places to make them fit for the people of God to meet in for partaking of the holy Ordinances of God Pr. Why say you so These Churches were founded by Papists and have been used to Idolatrie And therefore you may as well allow of the things you speak against even now as these Churches I think both ought to be allowed indifferently Ph. I hold there is great difference First for those I spake of formerly we are sure they were the inventions of the Man of sin and its possible to shew when and how they were brought into the Church of Rome But these Churches at least manie of them are more ancient then Poperie or Antichrist for it s not possible that Antichrist could come untill the Roman Empire was broken and removed which was at least four hundred years after Christ Before which Christianitie was plentifully spread in England and many Churches and Congregations planted for the true worship of God 2 Thes 7 8. Reve. 13.2 Antiquitie with full consent agree that Christianitie was here planted in or neer the Apostles daies and that upon occasion of the Persecution that rose about Stephen Acts 11.19 divers of the Apostles and Disciples came into England amongst whom the Ancients reckon Peter Paul Joseph of Aramathea and Symon Zelotes And that some Brittaines both men and women were famous Christians and some suffered Martyrdom here in the first ten Persecutions Fox Act. Mon. vo p. 147. 148. Speeds Chron pa. Now then we cannot conceive but that the pietie and devotion of those times when they had a Christian King Lucius An. 180. pr. Christ and Christianitie countenanced and priviledged by divers of the Emperors especially Constantine and Theodosius would stir up the Christians to build them meeting places Besides about the year six hundred when Augustin the Monck falsly called the English Apostle came into England sent by Pope Gregorie the Great who had not taken upon him the Title of universal Bishop he found the reliques of manie Churches and Congregations of Christians planted in England and Wales Fox Act. Mon. vo pa. 150.151 And he disputed with the Monks of Bangor about Ceremonies by which it s conceived he brought not so much Religion with him as he did superstition and Introductions to Popery for the Brittains had learned Religion from better Tutors It s true afterwards these meeting places were generally all polluted with Popish Idolatry all which with the Reliques thereof being swept out they are clean as before Pr. But what say you to this many of our Churches were Idols Temples Goodw. Ant. Ro. ca. 20. de delubro Ph. The Parish Churches I conceive were built for the service of the true God the forms of them are unlike the Idol Temples But I confess some of the Cathedrall Churches were the Temples of Idols as of Jupiter Apollo Janus and Diana some of which are demolished and some were new built as Pauls at London by Ethelbert the King about 1060 years since At which time hee put out the Flammins and Arch-flammins and set up Arch-Bishops and Bishops These Churches were built and dedicated to Idols or rather Devils and false Gods and therefore ought to be demolished as I conceive according to that Law Ye shall destroy all the places where they served their Gods and break down their Altars c. Deut. 12.2 3 c. Pr. Well I hope shortly to see the Church-government setled with the Classes and Synods and that thereby all things will be well reformed for the Appeals will regulate every thing which is irregularly done and many will see more then a few Ph. I should be glad to see a through Reformation but I do much feare these Prudentiall things the Classes Synods and Appeals to them will prove but imprudentiall and Physicians of no value And I doubt not but those who put the Parliament upon them have their own ends and aims in them Pr. Why say you so the Church of Antioch did appeal to the Councell at Jerusalem in a case of Conscience Acts 15. and why may not we do the like Pr. I deny that there was any such Appeale as you mean its true the Church of Antioch in a case of conscience did voluntarily send Paul and Barnabas and other brethren to Jerusalem to advise with the Apostles Elders and Church there about that matter And accordingly they received the sentence and judgement of the whole Church as well Brethren as Apostles and Elders which Apostles had extraordinary gifts of knowledge and revelation and what they directed them was in stead of the written Word We have no persons so gifted in these daies but must have recourse to the Law and the Testimonies the written Word of God Pr. But do you not think that these Classes and Appeals will be of excellent use for cropping and curbing of Errors Heresies and Sectaries and keeping the Church free from pollution Ph. I am unwilling to tell you what I think of Presbyterial Gouernment I le say nothing of it but take thus much mark the end and observe it These things the Classes Synods and Appeals can never profit the Church of Christ The Appeals are in effect the same wee had before from the Arch-Deacon to the Consistory of the Bishop from thence to the Arches then to the Audience and then to the Delegates so from the Congregation Presbyterie to the Classes from the Classes to the Provinciall Synod then to the Nationall Here is work for the Civill Lawyers to wyer-draw a cause as a Proctor once said untill dooms day if he lived so long These are not so likely to do good as the superintendencie of
Bishops which grew up within the first three hundred years after Christ and were ordained as was pretended for a remedie against Schisme and Heresie which yet proved more dangerous then the disease and made way for Antichrist the head of Prelacie The Commission granted by King Henrie the eight to the Lord Crumwell Fox Acts and Monum vol. 1. pag. 503. to visit the Clergie And the. High-Comission Stat. 1. Eliz. ch 1. granted in the first year of Queen Elizabeths Raign had as great shew and Probabilitie of doing good as these Classes and Synods And for present I conceive did some good But when wicked men became High Commissioners that proved a notable scourge to the godlie of the Land And so will your Classes and Synods in a short time when wicked and ambitious men get into the chief places and Power prove as bad if not worse because they be more then the High Commissioners who were but two and thirtie And this through the just judgment of God because these Policies are not of his appointment Pr. Why should you say so Ph. Because God never useth to bless means devised by man to accomplish his work in things appertaining to Religion especially when they come in Competition with those things which he hath appointed when men's posts are set up by God's Posts or when Go'ds means are laid aside For example God hath ordained his word and the Censures of the Church to keep and drive out the profane and to bring them to Repentance and amendment of life Instead of these the State erected or rather continued from the Papists the Spiritual Courts or rather Baudie Courts whose Officers lived upon the bloud of the best and the sin of the worst I need not tell you what profit or rather hurt came to all sorts of men by this means To come a little nearer to that which hath a little more shew of State-Religion The Parlaments of this Nation have made several Acts Ordinances for reformation of offences against profaning of the the Lords day and against swearing and drunkenness but the Church-Censures have not been used for those ends See but the effect what good these Laws have done no reformation much less any repentance in the Delinquents for the punishments touch not the heart and soul But for the present cause the sinner to rage and raile and some to vow to be avenged of those who accuse them and some to sin on purpose to provoke others who are more grieved for their transgressions then they themselvs or because of the sleight punishment appointed for expiation of such offences whereas if Gods waies were taken up he would bless the same for the conversion and amendment of such as belonged to him and the rest would either be outwardly reformed or at least left without excuse So then if these things be not of God I shall expect no good from them And can those things which are meerly prudential overtop those things which undoubtedly are of divine institution The foolishness of God is wiser then man Pr. But you said even now that those who put the Parlament upon these things have their ends and aimes in them What good or profit can they have by such Classes Synods or Appeals Ph. They do much conduce to uphold their double honour which they labour so much for I conceive the chief Engineers for contrivance of these things are the greatest and wealthiest of the pretended Clergie who have the greatest power in everie Countie which they extend to the utmost having an oare almost in everie boat and they take themselvs wronged if they may not order or contrive all designs both concerning peace and war nay and their projects reach verie far take but a view of the late great designes wherein besides their secret interests in particular States-men which they extended far and wherein they prevailed much Their publick preaching was almost nothing but Politicks in manie places Their fear was and yet is that the Parlament and Armie complying would spoil their great livings and countenance their opposites more then they and so the wheeles of their Chariots would fall of This fear they tearmed the miserie and danger of the Church as the late Arch-Priest Laud did in a case not much unlike theirs And their praiers and preaching must prevent it if possible and further their designe which was First to raise a new war and then to prepare the sillie people to entertain the Scots as avengers of the Covenant to perfect that design which was to set up that Government and Platform which they had modelled as neer the Scotch fashion as would stand with their honour and profit and by their subtiltie and earnestness they prevailed much upon the people and manie of the more religious sort believed them both in Citie and Countrie During this time they bent all their force against Rebels Hereticks Schismaticks and Sectaries which they said did much endanger the Church that is the Diana of their great Livings Well it pleased God by part of that Armie of Sectaries whom some of these men had cursed and scoffed at by the name of Saints to frustrate the design by scattering the enemies Armie almost miraculously which was not prepared for relief of the Church as our Clergie told us but to root out and destroie the godlie of the Land But the snare is broken and we are delivered blessed be God and there that design ended Now these men fall to work afresh and if you will believe them the Hereticks and Sectaries do again threaten the destruction of the Church of God and more hurt comes to the Church by these Hereticks and Sectaries then did by all the Marian Persecution and accordingly the people in manie places begin to believe them as they did before But the Center where all their lines meet and the Axis upon which they turn is their honour and profit for for if they can hold their own they have and will have all the best livings all the peoples heads under their girdles and all the power in the Classes and Synods and so upon the point the power of the Countie and of the whole Common-wealth and will without doubt reign in the Consciences of all sorts of men and incroach upon the Temporal power as much as their Predecessors the Prelates did before And this must needs conduce to their honour and profit Pr. Alas it cannot be conceived that so learned Orthodox men should aime at such ends being for the most part godly painful Preachers of the word Pr. I do not judge all Ministers but conceive many to be faithful but I speak of the most of those whom you account the best the Ringleaders chief Projectors and rigid of the Presbyterial Partie whose preaching for the most part is but reading and their Sermons for the most part Politicks either concerning Monarchical Government Libertie of the people Municipal Lawes Obedience to Princes foundations of Government Levying of Warre disbanding of Forces