any manner that he can But it is otherwise of a King that raigneth in peace and that vexeth the Common-wealth and is hurtfull vnto it by other meanes for then there is no place for defence by force or for plots against the life of the King because the Common-wealth doth not then suffer any actuall violence which it were lawfull to repell with violence NOVICE. What must be done then in this case where the Prince otherwise lawfull commeth to such a passe That hee ruineth the Common-wealth spoyleth men of their goods despiseth Religion and the publike Lawes maketh a vertue of pride and holdeth impietie against God to be the greatest valor IESVITE Thou knowest what Father Mariana from whom thou hadst this question bringeth for answer thereunto namely That it is not to be dissembled but the surest meane to remedy it is the publike way of Assemblies wherein by a common consent may be deliberated what shall be done The Prince shall first be admonished and if he reiect the medicine and that there resteth no farther hope of amendment the sentence being pronounced it shall be lawfull for the Common-wealth to deny him obedience and because that warre will necessarily ensue thereupon armes must be taken vp money raised and if otherwise it cannot be done by the right of defence the Common-wealth by its owne proper authoritie or by a greater may kill the Prince declared a publicke enemy NOVICE. But is not this a priuate opinion of that Father which is not to be followed IESVITE No for if hee had not proceeded farther none of ours would euer haue contradicted him Father Suarez teacheth the same doctrine very amply whereof behold here the first ground which is That if a lawfull King doth gouerne tyrannically and that the King dome hath no other meane of defence but by deposing and expelling the King the whole Common-wealth by a common consent of the Townes and principall persons of the Kingdome may depose the King as well by vertue of the law of Nature whereby it is permitted to repell force with force as because that necessary case of the proper conseruation of the common-wealth is alwayes held to be excepted in that first accord by which the Common-wealth transferred its power to the King NOVICE. Doth it follow hereupon that the Common-wealth hath power to put this King to death IESVITE That ground being laid we must say that after the sentence of condemnation touching the depriuation of the Kingdome giuen by a lawfull power or that which is all one after a declaratory sentence of the crime which of right hath imposed such a paine he which hath pronounced the sentence or he vnto whom he hath giuen commission to execute it may depriue the King of the Kingdome euen by putting him to death if otherwise he cannot or if the iust sentence doth also extend to that paine Howbeit the deposed King cannot be killed by any priuate person whatsoeuer no nor be expelled by force till he be commanded vnto it or that the generall commission be declared by sentence or of right The first part euidently followeth vpon that precedent principle for hee that may iustly condemne any one may likewise execute the sentence eyther by himselfe or by helps necessary thereunto otherwise that power would be frustratory in being able to decide the right without the ability of an efficacious constraint And as the minister of a King doth well to kill a man by the Kings commandement because that then he executeth the Kings power rather then his owne so when the Common-wealth may iustly depose the King the ministers thereof doe well to constraine the King or to kill him if it be necessary because then they doe it no longer by priuate but by publike authority And therefore Soto said well That although it be not lawfull for any priuate man whatsoeuer to kill him that is a Tyrant in his gouernment yet when the sentence is giuen one may establish for the minister of the execution thereof whomsoeuer one will NOVICE. But what meaneth Mariana by that speach where he saith By the authoritie of the Common-wealth or of a greater what is that greater IESVITE He meaneth that which we all hold for most certaine namely that that power appertaineth to the Pope as to the superior hauing iurisdiction to correct Kings yea such as are soueraigne as well as their subiects Now though the Common-wealth or Kingdome considered in its owne nature and as it was amongst the Gentiles or as it is at this present amongst them hath the power as we haue said to defend it selfe from a tyrant King and for that effect to depose him if it be necessary yet Christian Kingdomes as touching that point haue some dependance on the soueraigne Bishop First because the Pope may forbid a Kingdome to depose the King without his knowledge and aduice and vnlesse he hath first beene informed of the cause c. Wherupon we read in Histories that alwayes in such cases Kingdomes haue consulted with the Pope or haue euen implored him to depose vnworthy or tyrant kings as we haue declared of Childeric King of France in the time of Pope Zacharie c. Secondly the Christian kingdome dependeth also on the Pope in this That the Pope may not onely counsell or consent that the kingdome may depose the King which is pernicious to it but may also command and constraine it to doe it when he iudgeth it necessary for the spirituall safety of the kingdome but especially to auoid heresies and schismes NOVICE. If the holy Father hauing consented to the deposition of a King or hauing ordained it yet doth not declare himselfe for the execution thereof shall it bee lawfull for the first Prince that will to make warre vpon him and inuade his kingdome IESVITE No. But then his lawfull successor if he be a Catholike hath that power or if he neglect it or that there be none the Cominalty of the kingdome shall succeed him prouided they be Catholikes and if they craue assistance of other Princes they may assist them howbeit if the Pope giue other Kings power to inuade the kingdome they may iustly doe it because then they shall neither want iust cause nor power NOVICE. What shal I answer vnto those which alledge Dauid that would not kill Saul but caused the Amalekite to be put to death for vaunting that he had slain him which obiect the mischiefes arriuing vnto the Common-weath by such facts which say that the reuerence of subiects towards their Princes is in danger if once they bee perswaded that they may punish their faults and that vnder such pretexts the publike peace shall often be disturbed by seditions and commotions one part of the people arming themselues against the other c. IESVITE So they dispute which take the tyrants part saith our Mariana but the aduocates for the people produce as many and as great reasons for them For the Common-wealth from whom
all iudgement for to depend wholly vpon the iudgement and will of another NOVICE. If by that other you meane God it is a great impietie to gainsay that we should not altogether subiect our will to his will and our iudgement to his iudgement and I hold him for a manifest Hereticke that denyeth it IESVITE Nay now thou shewest that thou art but a Nouice it is not that which we blame in the Heretikes and Politicians for they confesse as much as thou sayest but by another wee meane our Superiours whose will our Father Ignatius would haue vs hold to be Diuine And we are not to regard Whether this Superior hath wisdome or goodnesse or other gifts of God that our obedience may not in any thing be diminished or whether he be not capable of great counsell or whether he be not prudent because wee are to regard that he holdeth the place of him which cannot be deceiued who will supply any defect he may haue of prudence and probitie And it is to be noted That your obedience shall be imperfect if it mount not to that degree not onely to execute the action which hee commandeth you exteriourly but also that you transforme your will into the will of your superiour otherwise it will not merit the name of vertue And therefore it is that we reade how obedience is better then sacrifice the reason whereof is deliuered by S. Gregory because in sacrifices the flesh of a thing was offered and by obedience one offereth his owne will which is an excellent part of the soule NOVICE. I had thought till now that sacrifice was not to be offered to any but onely vnto God which was the cause why I beleeued that when you spake of renouncing all a mans will for to obey another which is as you teach me now to sacrifice ones owne will it was not to be done to any but vnto God alone IESVITE Therein thou wert mistaken not to regard in the person of thy Superiour Iesus Christ himselfe who is supreme wisedome immense goodnes infinite charitie that cannot be deceiued neyther will deceiue thee And this we must doe according to the instruction of S. Ignatius who would not haue vs question whether he that commandeth vs doth it well or ill Recténe an secus for then by obedience wee render our freewill vnto him from whom we receiued it Now if as Cardinal Tollet teacheth a simple Countriman that beleeueth his Bishop propounding some Hereticall doctrine vnto him in the articles of faith meriteth in beleeuing it although it be an error because hee is bound to beleeue vntill he knoweth that it is repugnant to the Church Why should not we yeeld as much to our Superiours and why should not we hope to merit if we doe that which they command vs without farther inquiry euen when they command euill It is they that shall answer for it NOVICE. I wholly submit my selfe to beleeue you that I may not lose the fruit of obedience and renounce mine owne vnderstanding to approue this doctrine which I would entreat you to declare me somewhat more particularly in regard that therein consisteth our Proprium quarto modo our principall marke IESVITE I will doe it in our Father Ignatius owne termes who hath prescribed vnto vs for an article of faith How wee are to hold for most infallible that whatsoeuer our Superiour commandeth is the commandement and will of God and by consequent that with all our heart with all our consent wee labor to do all that the Superiour biddeth out of a certaine blinde impetuositie of the will desirous to obey without any enquiry at all as wee imploy all our consent to beleeue The Articles of our Faith and as Abraham did when God commanded him to offer his sonne Isaac NOVICE. This being once granted as needs it must seeing the iudgement of our Father Ignatius is diuine nothing shall be impossible to our Societie and as long as there are those which haue vowed this obedience so long shall wee haue men capable to execute the most difficult and hazardous enterprises But be pleased I pray to tell mee whom wee are to take for our superiours which haue this power ouer vs. IESVITE Blessed Ignatius shall answer thee himselfe That which I haue said of obedience equally appertaineth to priuate persons towards their nearest superiours as to Rectors of Colledges and such as are ordained for Presidents in each place towards their Prouincials to Prouincials towards their Generall to the Generall towards him whom God hath established ouer him namely his Vicar vpon earth NOVICE. What are wee to beleeue of this Vicar which is our holy Father the Pope IESVITE That he is the vniuersall Monarch of the whole Church her head her spouse and consequently aboue her That hee is the fundamentall stone of which Esay speaketh saying I will send into Sion a stone a tryed stone a pretious corner stone a sure foundation hee that beleeueth shall not make haste For although the Apostles S. Peter and S. Paul haue applyed it to Christ yet so it is that it is spoken there of a foundation after a foundation of the second foundation not of the first as Cardinall Bellarmine learnedly obserueth NOVICE. Must it be vnderstood that the holy Father is aboue the whole Church both in spirituall and temporall things IESVITE It must howbeit with this moderation whereof we make vse to content the scrupulous that temporall things depend on him so farre forth as they serue to spirituall and that for the good of them the Pope hath soueraigne power to dispose of the temporall estates of all Christians Because the Ciuill power is subiect to the Spirituall and euery superiour may command his inferiour NOVICE. Doe you apply this to Kings and Kingdomes IESVITE It is to that vse for which this doctrine chiefly serueth and it needeth no further explication seeing that so many effects haue sufficiently declared the application thereof NOVICE. I but yet I would desire you to furnish me with some Maximes for the ease of my memory according as they haue beene registred by the most approued Authors of our Societie IESVITE With all mine heart And in the first place Cardinall Bellarmine shall teach thee That the spirituall power may depose Princes and place others in their steads when as it cannot otherwise conserue its spirituall estate And Father Suarez That the power of the Pope extendeth to the repression of Kings by temper all paines and by priuation of their Kingdomes when necessity requireth Also That the Pope hath as much power ouer temporall Princes yea ouer such as are absolute and soueraigne as ouer the other faithfull or baptised Christians not onely to represse them by censuring their faults but also to punish them with temporall and corporall paines Further That this power is much more necessary for the repression of Princes then of subiects
NOVICE. This it may be is meant of hereticall Princes IESVITE Indeed it is first meant of them And if our Catholikes in England and other places had as much power as they haue right they would not endure hereticall Princes as they are constrained to doe till such time as opportunitie shall serue to free themselues from them for otherwise they are taught by vs that to suffer an hereticall or infidell Prince who laboureth to draw men vnto his Sect is to expose Religion vnto euident perill which Christians ought not to doe And Father Suarez worthily proueth That it appertaineth vnto the Pope to defend the subiects of an hereticall Prince and that by his power he may depriue such a Prince of his Kingdome chase him out of it absolue his subiects from their oath of allegeance And herewith agreeth Father Gregory of Valentia writing That temporall domination and superioritie ouer subiects by the sentence of the Pope may be taken away from Heretikes And the reason of it is That if they may bee depriued of their liues much more of their estates and consequently of all superioritie ouer others and that they which are excommunicated for Heresie incurre de facto the depriuation of politicke power and that their subiects are not onely absolued from their oath of allegeance but are also forbidden to keep it And that if the Iudge hath not yet pronounced the sentence of Excommunication this paine is neuerthelesse incurred if the crime of Heresie be so notorious that it cannot be hid and then it is lawfull for the subiect to deny obedience to his hereticall Lord much lesse is he bound thereunto NOVICE. Truly these are notable Maximes insomuch that although the Pope hath not pronounced expresse sentence of Excommunication against the Kings of Great Britaine of Denmarke and others such like and though their subiects are not expresly forbidden to obey them yet now I learne of you for to teach them vpon occasion that it is in their libertie eyther to doe or not to doe it without scruple of conscience IESVITE I haue giuen thee for it the very words of our Masters NOVICE. But doe they extend this power also against Catholike Kings and Princes IESVITE They doe for Father Suarez conioyneth him that is peruerse in his manners with the hereticall Prince And Cardinall Bellarmine cleareth thee of all doubt The Prince saith he when he is Catholike in faith and beleefe but of such euill manners that he is hurtfull vnto Religion or to the Church may be remoued and reduced to the ranke of other sheepe by the Pastor of the Church NOVICE. May this be done in any other case IESVITE The Pope may also command Kings to punish Heretickes and Schismatickes and if they doe it not he may constraine them by Excommunication Now I taught thee before the consequences of Excommunication which wee haue sufficiently demonstrated in the proceedings against Henry the third King of France concerning whom Charles Scribanius one of our principall Fathers at Antwerp in his Amphitheater of Honor thus refuted those which found fault with the Popes euill-entreating him If saith he a Denis a Machanidas an Aristotimus monsters of ages should oppresse France shall there be no high Bishop found so hardy as to animate a Dion a Timolcon a Philopoemon an Helematus If more monsters held the Commonwealth in captiuitie shall no Thrasibulus set to an helping hand The violence of Tarquin in the bed of Collatine gaue a iust cause and shall there none be met withall to depose and abolish out of France a tyrant King that oppresseth the liberty c Shall there not some sword-man at least rise vp against this beast No Pope that will deliuer so noble a Kingdome NOVICE. It seemeth to me that they of our Society which answered Anti-Coton deny Charles Scribanius to be the Author of that Booke and albeit Father Eudaemono-Iohannes confesseth that our Society is much indebted to the Author for defending it with so learned a volume yet hee maintaineth how Anti-Coton cannot proue his coniecture that Scribanius was the Author of it by any euidence IESVITE Therein he was deceiued for by the Index of the Bookes of our Societie composed by Father Ribadeneira hee shall finde that Charles Scribanius hath shewed what knowledge hee had in humane learning by his bookes of the Amphitheater of Honor against the accusations of the Caluinists NOVICE. Are wee the subiects of Princes where wee were borne or where we liue IESVITE Of neyther for wee are Clerkes NOVICE. Doth it necessarily follow that if we be Clerkes then wee are not their subiects IESVITE Yes very clearly For it cannot be proued saith our Bellarmine that the Kings of this age are lawfull superiors and Iudges of Clerkes if by the same meane it be not proued that children are aboue their fathers sheepe aboue their pastor things temporall aboue spirituall NOVICE. But is it not to be vnderstood of spirituall things only that Clerks are not subiect to secular Princes NOVICE. Not onely saith the same Author in spirituall things but also in temporall is the Priest to be gouerned by his Ecclesiasticall superior and it cannot bee that in temporall things hee should acknowledge the secular Prince because no man can serue two Masters And as Father Suarez writeth The ciuill Lawes of Princes and Magistrates doe not oblige Clerks neyther as touching the power of constraint nor as touching the power of direction by force of the laicall iurisdiction onely they oblige them by force of reason nor can Kings oblige Clerkes to those lawes particularly imposed Now wee vnderstand obligation by force of reason when the authoritie of the Canons or daineth that such lawes are to be obserued by Clerkes but they are free from the vertue and proper obligation of such lawes The same man after hee hath proued that Clerkes were committed to Peter draweth this necessary consequence from those words of our Sauiour No man can serue two Masters Mat. 6. that Clerkes are exempted from the temporall iurisdiction of Princes iure diuino because the same morall impotence noted in those words Hee shall hate the one and loue the other he shall cleaue to the one despise the other would be found if Clerkes were subiects according to the body both to the pope and to the King Whence he euidently concludeth that Clerkes are absolutely exempted from the temporall Iurisdiction of princes by reason that that Iurisdiction is exercised towards subiects in regard of the body and consequently in regard of all things which are ordained for a conuenient conseruation of the body if Clerkes then be exempted from the iurisdiction of Princes as touching their bodies certainly they are exempted from their temporall Iurisdiction NOVICE. Doth it not follow now of this that so many Ecclesiasticks as are made in a Kingdome or Common-wealth so many subiects is the Prince depriued of IESVITE Cardinall Bellarmine