not haue vsed if you could haue founde any better Chap. 3. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Page 76. Sect. 2. Seeing therefore (a) A weake con clusion of false principles the Bishop which Cyprian speaketh of is nothing else but suche as we call pastor or as the common name with vs is parson and his Churche whereof he is a Bishop is neyther dioces nor prouince ▪ but a congregation whiche meete togither in one place and to be taught of one man what should M. Doctor meane to put on this great name of Archbishop vpon so small a Bishopricke as it were Saules great harnesse vpon Dauid his little body or as if a man shoulde set a wyde huge porche before a little house Io. Whitgifte Where the premisses be nought howe shoulde the conclusion be good I would to God your argument were in his right forme that we mighte sée vpon what substantiall postes your conclusion dothe stande But let the Reader consider your grounds which I haue opened before I might heere tell you agayne that Cyprian in playne and manifest words Lib. 4. Epist. 1. dothe make a Bishop superior in degrée to him that you call pastor his words I haue repeated before I might also put you in minde of Cyprians iurisdiction ouer the churches of Carthage Numidia and Mauritanie according to his owne testimonie lib. 4. Epi. 8. in which respecte Illyricus dothe call him Metropolitane Likewise I might tell you that the most writers of that age as Tertullian de Coro militis de Fuga in pers Origen hom 2. in Numer 11. in Hierem. doe make thrée degrées of Ministers Deacons Priests Bishops To be short I could bid you looke Eusebius lib. 6. cap. 1. and you should sinde that Demetrius who liued Anno. 191. was Bishop Paroeciarū Alexandriae Aegypti of the parishes of Alexandria and Egypt and referre you to many suche examples vsed before which vtterly ouerthrowe this conclusion and euen hisse it out of the doores Chap. 3. the. 9 Diuision T. C. Pag. 76. Sect. 3. And least that M. Doctor shoulde saye that notwithstanding the Bishops had but seuerall churches yet one of them might haue eyther a title more excellent than the rest or authoritie and gouernmēt ouer the rest that shal likewise be considered out of Cyprian And first for the title and honor of archebishop it appeareth howe Cyprian helde that as a proude name for he obiecteth to Florentius as a presumptuous thing for that in beleeuing certayne euill reportes of him and misiudging 4. p. 9 of him he did appoynt himselfe Bishop of a Bishop and iudge ouer him whiche was for the time appoynted of God to be iudge Io. Whitgifte Pupianus to whome Cyprian wrote that Epistle had greatly misused Cyprian in beléeuing certayne false rumors reports of him vpon the same giuing sentence against him for this cause Cyprian reproueth Pupianus saying Quis autem nostrum Iongè est ab bumilitate vt úmne ego qui quotidie fratribus seruio venientes ad ecclesiam singulos benignè cū voto gaudio suscipio an tu qui te Episcopū Episcopi iudicē iudicis ad tēpus à Deo dati constituis c. VVhether of vs is further from humilitie I which serue my brethren dayly receyue euery one that cōmeth vnto the Church gētly with desire ioy or thou which makest thy selfe the Bishop of the Bishop and the iudge of the iudge giuen of God for the time It appeareth rather in these words that Florentius is reproued for taking vpon him to iudge Cyprian to whō he ought obedience so that this place doth not deregate any thing frō any lawful authoritie that one Bishop hath ouer another but it condemneth the rash presumptuous iudgement of those that will take vpon them rashly to giue sentēce of their superiours betters as Pupianus did For in that he findeth fault with him for making himselfe as it were Bishop of the Bishop and iudge of the iudge he playnly declareth that he himself was both Bshop and iudge of Pupianus neyther dothe he obiect this to Pupianus as a proude name but as a proude deede Chap. 3. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag 76. Sect. 4. And heerein also I may vse the same reasons which the godly writers of our time vse agaynst the Pope to proue that he had no superioritie in those dayes ouer other Bishops for that the other Bishops called him brother and he them called him fellow Bishop he them For so doth Cyprian call the Bishops of that prouince in hys Epistle his fellow Bishops and in diuers places his brethren And in the sentence which he spake in the Councel of Carthage he sayth none of vs doth take him selfe to be Bishop of Bishops Io. Whitgifte Euery Bishop was chiefe in his owne Prouince and not subiect to any The Bishop of Rome had no iurisdictiō ouer the Bishop of Carthage but they were of equall power and authoritie as others were also of the like seates In that Cyprian called the Bishops of his prouince fellowe Bishops and brethren he declared that the functiō and ministerie was all one he like wise vttered his humble minde spirite But this proueth not that he had no superioritie ouer them S. Peter in his first Epist. chap. 5. 1. Pet. cap. 5. calleth himselfe fellowe minister with those whom he then exhorted which were all pastors and such as were ministers of the worde and yet you acknowledge an Apostle to be the highest in the Church aboue al the other degrées mentioned ad Ephe. 4. Cyprians words in the Councell of Carthage I haue spoken of in another place he meaneth the title of vniuersall Bishop and suche as séeke tyrannically vnlawfully to rule and especially suche as will of necessitie binde all other men to their opinions in all thinges for his words be Tyrannico terrore ad obsequendi necessitatem collegas suos adigat None of vs enforceth his fellowes by tyrannicall feare to the necessitie of obeying Chap. 3. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Page 77. Sect. 1. Nowe that there was no authoritie of one Bishop ouer an other and that there was none such as when controuersies rose tooke vpon him the compounding of them or any one to whom it apperteyned to see the vnitie of the Church kept and to see that all other Bishops and the Cleargy dyd their duetie as M. Doctor beareth vs in hande it may clearely be seene in dyuers places of Cyprian and first of all in that sentence which he spake in the Councel of Carthage where he proceedeth further after this sorte that none of them dyd by any tyrannicall feare binde his fellowes in office or any fellowe Bishops to any necessitie of obedience seeing that euery Bishop hath for his free libertie and power his owne iudgement and discretion as one which can not be iudged of an other as he also him selfe can not iudge an other but sayth
opiniō touching Musculus the authoritie of y e ciuill Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters briefly but plainly in these wordes Those whome they call Ecclesiasticall persones and we call them Papistes will not commit to the magistrate any further authoritie in religion than to be the keeper and reuenger of it and of their Ecclesiasticall lawes that the ecclesiasticall pollicie maye remayne immouable wherefore they deny him to haue authoritie in that he is a magistrate to make or to publyshe any Ecclesiasticall lawes bicause suche things perteine to those that do represent the churche whose decrees and constitutions must bee mainteyned and defended by the authoritie of the magistrate This I thought good to nete before I come to answering of his argumentes that al men may vnderstand that I no otherwise charged them in this point than they haue well deserued neither haue I as yet detected all that they peruersly thinke of the authoritie of the ciuill magistrate one thing I praye you marke that here is one note A note of Anabaptisme practised by y e Rep r. practised that I haue ascribed to the Anabaptistes in my (*) Pag. 2. sect 2. Answere to the Admonition for there I shewe that the Anabaptistes accuse the true ministers of the Gospell for attributing as they saye to much to the ciuill magistrate The same doth T. C. charge me with in this place But I will nowe come to his argumentes The. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 154 Sect 1. This distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not nor hath not heard of let him looke in the seconde booke of the Chronicles in the. 19. chap. and in the. 8. and. 11. verses hee shall see that there were a You alleage the reasons of the Papilies to the same purpose with them number appointed for the matters of the lord which were priests Leuites and there were other also appointed for the kings affaires and for matters of the common wealth amongest which were the Leuites which being more in number than could be applied to the vse of the churche were sette ouer ciuill causes being therfore moste fitte for that they were best learned in the lawes of God which were the polylike lawes of that countrey There he may learne if it please him that the making of orders and giuing of iudgementes in ciuill and Ecclesiasticall in common wealth and churche matters perteyned vnto diuers persons whiche distinction the writer to the Hebrewes doth note when he sayeth (*) that the Priest was ordeyned in thinges perteyning to God Hebr. 5. Io. Whitgifte Yes I bothe knowe this distinction and haue hearde of it for I haue redde it The 〈◊〉 vseth the same distinction reasons with the Papistes in the bookes of the Papistes as I haue shewed before I haue hearde also this same place of the. 2. Chro. 19. alleaged to confirme it For Saunders in his booke before named dothe vse it to the same ende and purpose that you do that is to proue the Ciuill Magistrate to haue no authoritie in making Ecclesiasticall lawes and orders his woordes be these Likewyse Iosaphat kinge of Iuda distinguishing bothe the Saunders li. 2. cap. 1. fol. 57. powers sayde to the Leuites and Priestes Amarias the Prieste and your Bishop shall gouerne in those thinges whiche perteyne to God But Zabadias c. beholde something perteyned to the Bishop other somethinges to the office of a Kinge The same place also dothe Harding vse to the selfe same ende agaynst my Lorde of Sarisburie fol. 118. of the defense of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande from whome I beléeue you haue borrowed it Do I not say truely that you iumpe with the Papistes do you not both conspire agaynst the Ciuill Magistrate and are you not content to vse theyr very woordes and reasons greate ado there is agaynst me bycause I vse a place of Cyprian for the authoritie of an Archbishop ouer his prouince whiche the Papistes abuse for the authoritie of the Pope ouer all Christendome and here you vse the reason not onely of Papistes but of Traytours to the same ende with them that is agaynst that lawfull iurisdiction whiche wée haue giuen to our Prince and whiche hath hetherto bene maynteyned bothe by preaching and by burning But to lette this reste in the consideration of the Reader I will in fewe The place of the Replier agaynst himselfe woordes declare that this place maketh flatte agaynst you for who placed those Leuites and Priestes in Ierusalem for the iudgement and cause of the Lorde or who prescribed vnto them what they shoulde do or who gaue to them that authoritie did not Iehosaphat the texte is playne Iehosaphat had chiefe authoritie and gouernment bothe in thinges perteyning to God and in thinges perteyning to the common wealth but for better execution of them the one he did committee to be executed by Amaria the Prieste the other by Zabadiah a ruler of the house of Iuda euen as the Quéenes Maiestie beyng supreme gouernour in all causes bothe Ecclesiasticall and Temporall committeth the hearing and iudgyng of Ecclesiasticall matters to the Archbyshops and Bishops and of Temporall matters to the Lorde Chauncellour and other iudges neyther can you any more conclude that Iehosaphat had no authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes bycause he made Amarias the Prieste iudge in the same than you can that he had nothing to do in Temporall affayres bycause he appoynted also Zabadiah to heare determine them For if this reason be good the Quéene of Englande hath nothing to do with Ecclesiasticall matters bycause shée hath made the Archbishops and Bishops iudges in them then is this as good hir Maiestie hath no authoritie in Ciuill matters bycause she hath committed the same to the Lorde Chauncellour and other Iudges Thus you see howe both the Papistes and you are deceyued in one and she selfe same reason I will but note by the way that the Leuites beyng Ecclesiasticall persons had Leuites being Ecclesiasticall persons had to d in ciuill matters to do in Ciuill matters as the woordes of the texte verse 11. moste manifestly declare as for your shifte of the number of them beyng more than coulde be applyed to the vse of the Churche it is but your owne and therefore to simple to answere so playne and direct a place of the Scripture That in the fifte to the Hebrewes is farre from the purpose for the Apostle in the same sentence declareth what those things perteyning to God be Euen to offer bothe giftes and sacrifices for him I thinke you do not so malitiously reporte of vs as the Papistes do that we giue to the Prince power to minisier the Sacramentes and to preache the woorde if you do not this place can by no meanes serue your turne The. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2. This might M. Doctor haue learned by that whiche the noble Emperour Constantine attributeth Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Const. epi. ad Euseb.
a little after hee sayeth That hee coulde not omitte those businesse withoute the omittyng of his dutye To the same effecte dothe he speake in that Treatise that is among his Episiles in number an hundreth and ten where he desyreth the people that they woulde not moleste hym for the space of fyue dayes wyth theyr worldely matters by reason of certayne busynesse commytted vnto hym as it appeareth in these woordes It pleaseth mee and you for the care of the scriptures whych the brethren and fathers my fellowe Byshops dydde vouchesafe to laye vppon mee in Ang. epi. 110. the Councells of Numidia and Carthage for the space of fyue dayes no man shoulde trouble mee These thynges were propounded you were contente youre decree and consente was rehersed it was kepte but a small tyme and afterwardes you did violently brust in vnto mee neyther coulde I bee suffered to doe that whyche I woulde In the forenoone and in the after noone I am troubled with mennes busynesse I desyre you for Chrystes sake to suffer me to committe the care of my troubles to Eradius this yong man and prieste whome thys daye in the name of Christ I appoynt to be your bishop and my successour Possidonius nameth no elders but speaketh onely of Augustine and whosoeuer shall with diligence pervse the nintéenth chapter of Possidonius shall be enforced to confesse that he meaneth Augustine was occupyed as well in ciuill as ecclesiasticall matters and in determinyng of them as in writyng of letters for them or in giuyng of counsell Wherefore this example of Augustine is moste fitly alleaged of the Bishop of Sarum and manyfestly declareth what was the vse in his dayes touching suche matters Chap. 3. the. 15. Diuision The Bishop of Sarū in the defense of the Apol. in the. 5. parte 4. chap. 2. sect T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 2. And for the truth of thys matter that ministers oughte not to meddle wyth ciuill affayres (*) But you shall not fynde him contrary to him selfe as you surmyse I will appeale to no other than to the Bishop himselfe who doth assume playnly the same that the admonition here affirmeth Io. Whitgifte In that place the Bishop of Sarisburie speaketh onely of the Pope who vsurpeth M. Iewell speaketh not againste ciuill o ces in ministers simply but allowed them by his owne practise the whole and full authoritie of a secular Prince and doth chalenge the same iure diuino by the authoritie of Gods worde He speaketh not of suche Bishops to whome so muche ciuill authoritie is committed by the Prince as maye serue to the correction of vice and good and quyet gouernmente of the Churche forsomuch as he did himselfe exercyse the same And surely it is not well done of you thus to charge that worthie man with contrarieties vniustly For doth he that confuteth the Popes vniust claime and vngodly vsurpation of both the swords in that maner y t he claymeth vseth them condemne al maner kind of ciuil iurisdctiō by christian Princes committed to Bishops being helpes vnto them in dooing their duetie and tendyng to the good and quiet gouernmente of the Churche Surely you are good in confounding but too bad in distinguishing wherefore you haue vntruly reported of that worthie Bishop Chap. 3. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 3. And therfore I conclude that forsomuche as (*) Wherefare you not asha med of vutruthi bothe the holie scriptures do teache that ministers ought not to meddle with ciuil offices and reason and the practise of the Church do confirme it that they ought to kepe themselues within the limites of the ministerie and ecclesiastical functions least whylest they breake forth into the callyng of a Magistrate in stead of shewing them selues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is ouerseers they be founde to declare themselues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is busy bodies medlyng in things which belong not vnto them And thus putting them in remembrance of that whiche they knowe well mough that they ought 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say studie to adorne that charge whiche they take in hand and do professe I leaue to speake any further of this matter Io. Whitgifte Melchisedech being a Priest did exercise ciuill iurisdiction for he was king of Salem The scriptures teach that ecclesiasticall persons maye haue ciuill iurisdiction Gen 14. Aaron being a Priest did iudge the whole people in temporall matters euen in causes of inheritance Num. 27. In the. 17. of Deuteronomie there is a commaundement that ciuill matters of difficultie shal be referred to the Priests and to the iudge Elye and Samuel Priests did iudge the people in matters temporall Gen. 14. Nume 27. Deut. 17. 1. Sam. The people of Israell after theyr captiuitie were gouerned by Priestes and Prophetes as by Esdras Nehemias Mattathias c. The Scripture in no place commaundeth the contrarie nor moueth vnto it yet you are not ashamed to say that the holye scriptures doe teache that ministers oughte not to meddle with ciuill offices Lykewyse in Augustines tyme it is euidente by the woordes before recited The practise of the churche concerning ciuill offices in ministers that it was not straunge but vsuall and counted a péece of duetie for Bishops to deale in Ciuil causes and that as Iudges The authours of the Centuries in the fourth Centur. chap. 7. say that Bishops in that age did giue sentence in ciuil causes if anye didde appeale from the Ciuill courtes to their authoritie Sozomene Lib. 1. cap. 9. Bishops gaue sentence in ciuil causes Cent. 4. cap. 7. Sozom. li. 1. cap. 9. wryteth thus of Constantine the Emperour This was a greate argumente of his good affection towardes Christian religion that he made a lawe for the freedome of clearkes in all places and also hee gaue libertie for those that were called into iudgemente to appeale to the Bishops if they were disposed to refuse the ciuill magistrates and he commaunded that their sentence should stand and be of more force than the sentence of the Appeale graū ted from ciuill magistrates to Bishops other iudges euen as though it had proceeded from the Emperour hymselfe And that the Magistrates and their ministers should see that acomplished that was determined and iudged in suche causes by the Bishops Nicephorns lib. 7. cap. 9. maketh mention of one Philaeas a Bishop that was greatly Niceph. lib. 7. cap. 9. commended for his wisedome and dexteritic in determining ciuill matters committed vnto him Sozomene lib. 6. cap. 32. testifieth of Epiphanius Bishop of Salamine Soz. li. 6. c. 32. Epiphanius busied with ciuill canses that together with his pastorall office he was occupyed and that with greate commendation in ciuill and politike affaires Eusebius lib. 7. cap. 32. testifieth that Dorotheus being a Priest of the Churche of Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 32. Antioche and wel learned did scrue the
commaunde them Pag. 186. 10 He sayth that those which write the Centuries suspect the Cannon of the Councell of Laodicea which forbiddeth the electiō of ministers to be committed to the people and doubt whether it bea Bastarde or no whiche is vntrue for the Authours of the Centuryes make no such doubt Pag. 188. 11 He sayth that Hierome willeth that the people should haue power and authoritie to choose their clearks their ministers which is not so for Hierom willeth no such thing Pag. 203. 12 He alledgeth Musculus his wordes in stead of Ieromes and that which onely Muscu sayth in his cōmon places he ascribeth to Ierom in his epist. to Nepotian ead 13 He sayth that Nazian in an oration that he wryteth at the death of his father confuteth those reasons that seeme to hinder the election of Ministers by the Church and yet is there no such thing to be founde in that oration Pag. 205. 14 He referreth the Reader to the. 6. and. 7. booke of Eusebius for examples of elections of the people Clergie confirmed by the Christian magistrate namely in the Bishop of Constantinople and yet is there no such examples in those bookes neyther any mention of any Bishop of Constantinople Pag. 207. 15 He fathereth a manifest vntruth vpon Eusebius lib. 6. touching Origens admission into the ministerie Pag. 209. 16 He leaueth out the wordes of the Councell of Chalcedon that open the meaning of the Councell Pag. 222. 17 He againe ascribeth Musculus his wordes to Ierome Pag. ead 18 He denyeth that Chrysostome maketh a distinction betwixt Bishops and Elders when as his wordes be plaine Pag. 226. 19 He doth vntruely and corruptly alledge Theodorete Pag. 268. 20 He sayth Pag. 280. that the two treatises called the Admonition were written by diuerse persons the one not knowing the others doings the contrarie whereof is manifestly declared 21 He citeth Nicephorus corruptly Pag. 326. 22 He falsifyeth a place in the first of Iohn by a false interpretation to make it serue his turne Pag. 302. 23 He sayth that the Centuries alledge a place of Ambrose out of his booke de dignitate sacerdotali to proue that the office of an Archbishop was not then come into the Church Which is vntrue for the Centuries alledge no suche place out of Ambrose for any such purpose Pag. 337. 24 He sayth that Hierome and Augustine speake of Archdeacons in those places where they onely speake of Deacons Pag. 346. 25 The wordes of Socrates are falsified Pag. 350. 26 He vntruly reporteth the wordes of Cyprian Pag. 257. 27 He falsifieth the meaning of Tertullian alluding that to Ceremonies that Tertullian meaneth of matters of fayth and of saluation Pag. 370. 28 He kéepeth back the wordes of Theodoret that explane his meaning Pag. 412. 29 An vntruth concerning Iereneus auouched out of the fifth booke of Eusebius Cap. 3. 4. Pag. eadem 30 He peruerteth the wordes of the Gréeke scholiast Pag. 413. 31 He auoucheth an vntruth of Theodoret. Pag. 415. 32 He vttereth a verie vncharitable vntruth of the worthie man M. Iewel Bishop of Sarisburie Pag 422. 33 He sayth that in the Councell of Antioch it appeareth that the Bishop of the Metropolitane seate called Synodes and propounded the matters which were to be handled and that it was his office to see that the Bishops kept themselues within their owne Diocesse and he quoteth the. 9. Canon where no such thing is to be founde Pag. 435. 34 He both addeth and detracteth from the. 34. Canon attributed to the Apostles Page 439. 35 The. 17. Canon of the Councell of Antioche is vntruely alleadged Page 440. 36 He should saye an Epistle of Pope Zachary to Boniface and he sayth an Epistle of Zachary to Pope Boniface In the whiche Epistle he saythe that this cause scil Least they shoulde wax vile through the multitude is alleaged why there should not be a Bishop in euery village or little citie which is vntrue for there is no such cause alleaged there 443. 37 He alleadgeth the fift Canō Concilij Tyronnes for that that cannot be found in it Pag 446. 38 He saythe that another councell quoting the Councell of Afrike decreed that the Christians shoulde not celebrate feastes on the birth dayes of Martyrs because it was the manner of the heathen which is a manifest vntruth for there is no such decrée in that councell 479. 39 He sayth That Tertuliian would not haue the Christians to syt after they had prayed because the Idolaters did so and he quoteth his booke de anima where there is no such thing written Page ead 40 He fathereth an vntruth of Augustine touching Baptizing by women or in priuate houses Page 522. 41 He alleageth M. Beza in his annotations for that which cannot be founde in thē Pag. 584. 42 He saith that if we will take the nature of the sacrament so straightly as Augustine doth that there be no sacramentes but when as to the element there commeth the worde the circumcision can be no Sacramen which is a grosse vntruth for in circumcision there is both the word and the element Page 〈◊〉 43 He saith that the eldership was most flourishing in Constantines time but he noteth 〈◊〉 place where we may finde his saying to be true Page 651. 44 He is greatly deceiued about the excommunicating of Apollinaris and sheweth manifest tokens that either he hath not himselfe read the story or that he hath read it very negligently as it is plainely declared in the Defense Page 669. 45 He falsifieth Ambrose Page 670. 46 He alleageth a place of Tertullian very deceitfully Page 673. 47 He saith that Augustine in his bookes de Bap. contra Donatistas 〈◊〉 that if the most of the people be in ected with the fault which is to be punished that then no excommunication ought to be attempted for because 〈◊〉 sufficient number of voyces will not be obteined for the excōmunication whereas these wordes for because a sufficient number of voyces c. are not to be founde in these bookes of Augustine Page 675. 48 He maketh an vntrue report of the. 10. Canon of the Councell of Anti h. Page 682. 49 He alleageth that for making Ecclesiastical lawes and ceremonies which is ment of building and repayring of Churches out of Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Constant. Epist. ad Eusebium Page 698. 50 He affirmeth that this practise continued still in the Churches of God scil that nothing was broughte into the Church to be read besides the word of God whereas the contrarie is manifestly proued of the same time whereof he meaneth Page 718. 51 He saith that S. Iohn in the Apocalips reprehending the ministers of diuers Churches dyd not put to his name vnto his booke whiche is a manifest vntruth for he addeth his name both in the beginning and in the end thrise in the first chapter and once in the last I here omit his manifest wresting of the Scriptures his wrong collections bolde assertions contrarie
in the Defense for Archbishops and the superiority of Bishops 470. c. ¶ Archdeacons 344. c. ¶ Archiflamines 320. c. 323 ¶ Argumentum à secundùm quid ad simpliciter 23 Argumentum ab authoritate negatiuè 24. 26. 77. 328. 543 Argument of Negatiues by comparison 26 27 Argumentum à petitione principij 26. 62. 95. 249. 302. 304. 314. 322. 440. 451. Argumentum à non causa pro causa 27. 293. 482. Argumentum ab aequivocatione 62 Argumentum à facto ad us 142. 161. 505. Argumentum ab authoritate affirmatiuè 78 Argumentum ex solis particularibus pag. 79 Argumentum ab ignorantia Elenchi 109. 181. 187. 206. 426. A deformed argument 316. c. Arguments borowed of the Papists 466. 696. 697. 698. c. Argumentum à toto ad partes affirmatiuè 265 ¶ Aristotle not rightly alleaged 243 ¶ Arrogancie cloked with zeale 42 Arrogancie disprayseth good things pag. 725 Arrogancie of the libellers 57 ¶ Assertion vnaduised 475 ¶ Athanasius Archbishop 471. 339 Athanasius Creede 496 Athanasius being a child baptized pag. 519. ¶ Atheists in the Church 178 ¶ Auncient Fathers contemned of the vnlearned 811 ¶ Augustine of thinges indifferent pag. 99. c Augustine deliuered from vntrue surmises 100 Augustine heareth ciuill causes 771. 772. Augustine retorted vpon the aduersarie 811 ¶ Aurelius Bishop of Carthage had the ouersight of many Churches pag. 471 ¶ Authoritie the best proofe in Diuine matters 200 B ¶ Babling in prayer what it is 805 ¶ Baptisme the sacrament of fayth pag. 608. 609 Matters touching baptisme 607. c Of the parties to be baptised 619. c Baptisme once ministred remaineth perpetuall 622 The essentiall poynte of Baptisme pag. 519. Baptisme called priuate in respect of the place 93. 504 Baptisme ministred but once a yere pag. 238 Baptisme true though not ordinarily ministred 517. 521 Differring of Baptisme not cōuenient 521 Baptisme by lay men 518. 519. 523. Baptisme by women not collected out of the booke 504. 793. Baptisme by women not defended pag. 509. 516. 29. Baptisme ministred in priuate places 511. c. 513. Necessitie in Baptisme 523. Baptisme ministred withoute preaching 563 The name of Baptisme transferred to the giftes of the spirit 564 ¶ Basilius a Metropolitane 341. 471 ¶ Battus a babling Poet. 805 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 804 ¶ Beggers and ignorant persons are thoughte onely to bee saued of some 10 ¶ To beleue and to be elected not al one 611 ¶ Benedictus 494. c. 496. 497 ¶ Beza calleth the names of Archbishops c. holy names 472 Beza his iudgemēt of baptising the children of excommunicate person c. 623. 624. ¶ Bishops moste mete to haue the examination of ministers 131 Bishope haue authoritie to admitte ministers 196. c Bishops appointe their successours pag. 205 Bishops authoritie 297. c 408. Bishops called heades of the Churches 301 One ministerie of Bishops but diuerse degrees 320 A Byshop aboue a priest in Cyprians time 358 One Byshoppe in one Cittie 366. 444. Difference betwixte Byshoppe and Priest 383 Byshoppes in the Apostles tymes pag. 384. 470 Ieromes Byshoppe aboue an Elder in rule 385 Byshops gouernours simply not of one action onely 3 Byshoppes authoritie consisteth in offences 75 Byshop high priest 411. 470. 471. VVhat kinde of authoritie Byshops exercise 420 Byshoppes succede Apostles in gouernment 32 Comparison betwixte our Byshope and the olde Bishops 472 〈◊〉 Byshops alone excommunicate 6 6 c. Byshops may haue assistance in excommunication 673 Authoritie ascribed to Bishops in x communication not infinite but limited 6 8 Byshops gaue sentence in ciuill causes 773 ¶ A Bloudy assertion 150 ¶ Booke of common prayer Looke Communion Booke Booke of ordering Ministers iustifyed concerning examination pag. 134. 〈◊〉 42 The reasons of T. C. agaynste the Booke of ordering Ministers pag. 134. c ¶ Bodye what it signifieth in Caluine 46 Of these wordes The Body of ou e Lord Iesus Christ. c. 6 ¶ Bragges 58. 297 ¶ Bread in the Communion Looke Communion Bread ¶ Brethren may be punished 809 ¶ Bucer of things indifferēt 113. c. Bucers censure of the first Communion Booke 595 615 Bucer defaced by the Replyer 522 ¶ Burialls 727. c The place of Buriall 737 The dutie of the minister not hindred by burying the dead 730 A prayer at Buryall expounded pag. 729 The dead buryed by the minister with prayer 728 Buriall Sermons Looke funerall sermons C ¶ Caius Fimbria 7 8 ¶ Caluine acknowledgeth the names of Archbishop c. 417. c Caluine of thinges indifferente 109 c. Caluine alloweth Superioritie 390. 398. Diuerse editions of Caluines institutions 391. 50 Caluines opinion of Communion bread 592. c ¶ Canon law not altogether condemned 463 c ¶ Can is not taken for ought 778 ¶ Catechist and pastor differ 425 Catechi mes 152. c ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 69 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 69 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 280 ¶ Cathedrall Churches 742. c Cathedrall Churches before Antichristian Popes 747 A Colledge of Ministers in euery citie 747. Our Cathedrall Churches not much differing from those of old time pag. 747 The vse of Cathedrall Churches necessary 747 ¶ Cauilles 130. 352. 401. 506. 574. 585 628. ¶ A Caueat 448 A necessary caueat 481 ¶ Ceremonies of 2. sortes 80 How we haue but 2. ceremonies 119 Substantiall ceremonies 80 Accidentall ceremonies 80 Rules of ceremonies 86. 87 The controuersie about ceremonies confessed by T. C. 85. 86. 126 Euery church hath an order of ceremonies 707 How Ceremonies serue to edifying pag. 286. c. VVhy God appointed so many ceremonies to the Iewes 305 Disterence betwixt Popish ceremonies and oures 616 The ground of the Assertion about ceremonies vnanswered by T. C. pag. 94 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 158. c. 163 ¶ Children of Papists and excommu nicate persons may bee baptisedpag 621. c How children are said to beleue 608 ¶ Christ called Archbishop 300 Christ vsed vnleauened biead 593. c. ¶ Christian men sheepe but reasonable 172 The number of Christiās more now than in the Apostles times 175 ¶ Chrisostome an Archbishop 412. c. 472. Chris stome exerciseth Archiepiscopall iurisdiction in Asia 414 Chrisostome of distinctiō of degrees pag. 387 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 682 ¶ Church cannot be shut vp in one prouince now 465 The Church is reformed not transformed 474 To frame all churches after one is daungerous 481. 482 Church for the gouernours of the church 636. 66 No church maye challenge to bee a patterne necessarily to be followed 704 The church full of hypocrites 176 Some in the church and not of the church 179 No church established in the Apostles time how 180. 18 The church in persecution in Constantines time 188. 189 The Authoritie of the church in things indifferent 76. c. VVhat thinges are left to the order of the church 83. 88. c. 713. The
determination of the church ought not lightly to be altered 89 ¶ Churching of women 534. c. The cause of the womans absence from the church after hir dehuerance 535 ¶ Circumstances necessarie are commaunded 512 ¶ Circumcision a sacrament 618 Circumcision in priuate houses 515 ¶ Cypriā chooseth without consent of the people 205 Cyprian of the office of an Archbishop 354. c. 367. c. Cyprian a Metropolitane 356. 438. 470. ¶ Ciuil offices in Ministers 749. c. Ciuill offices in our Ministers tend to the gouernment of the church pag. 75 Ciuill authoritie not claimed but committed to our Bishops 752 Some Ciuill offices rather helpes than hinderances to Bishops 753 Augustine iudgeth ciuill causes pag. 772. Ciuil iurisdiction that the Pope claimeth not like to that in vse in this church 759. 778 A greater ciuill iurisdiction sought for in disprouing the lesse 760 Ciuil iurisdictiō in vse in this church is in some respect ecclesiasticall pag. 766. 771 Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall offices met in one 767. 771. Ciuil offices in ministers not against the word of God 773. The practise of the Church for ciuil offices in ministers 773. Ciuill businesse incident to Byshops by the iudgemente of the holye Ghost 772. 774. ¶ Clement 319. c. Clements Epistle read in the church pag. 719. ¶ Collect vpon Trinitie Sunday 491 Collect of the 12. Sunday after Trinitie Sunday 491. ¶ Coemiteria 250. ¶ Commaundementes of diuerse kindes 103. All the commaundementes of God and of the Apostles are not nedefull for our saluation 103. ¶ Cōmunitie in the Apostles times pag. 162. ¶ Comelinesse externall is alterable 98. The iudgement of comelinesse resteth not in priuate men 87. ¶ Communion Booke 474. c. Communion in priuate places 5 4. 525. Communion ministred to the sicke pag. 527. c Of the number of Communicantes pag. 528. c. Basill would haue 12. at the least to communicate 530. Of compelling men to communicate 531. 532. 605. Men not meete to cōmunicate may be admitted to the hearing of the word and prayer 533. The Apostles began the communion wyth the Lordes prayer 588. 602. Matters touching the Communion pag. 588. c. Examination of Communicantes pag. 591. c. Two things worthie to be noted of Communicantes 592. Examination of communicants not disallowed 593. Communion bread 593. c. Alexander appoynted vnleauened breed 594. Bucers opinion of Communion bread 594. Caluines opinion of Communion bread 594. Christ vsed vnleauened bread 595. The kinde of bread indifferent 595. Communion at mariages 724. Of shutting mē from the Communion 603. Men persisting in wickednesse are not to be compelled to the communion 605. Halfe communion 737. The makers of the Communion booke praised 711. ¶ Companions of Paule chosen by consent and why 163. ¶ Comparisons vnequall 710. ¶ Conferēce a cause of better know ledge 176. Conference offered to the Replyer hath bene by him refused 354. 7. ¶ Confirmation 725. c 785. 786. Abuse of confirmation in the Popishe Church 786. Confirmation of old time like ours pag. 786. Confirmation at the length allowed 794. The ende of confirmation 794. ¶ Confusion follovveth the doctrin of the Admonitors 3. 559. 746. ¶ Conscientia mille testes 503. ¶ Consuls and their authoritie 396. ¶ Constantine made Ecclesiasticall lawes 698 ¶ Contention defended 34. 377. Contentiō a hinderance to the profession of diuinitie 141. VVho be contentious 13. 14. ¶ Contraries may be defined wyth one difference 124 Some delighte to be contrarie to tymes 283. Men of contrarie iudgement ioy ne against the truth 51. Howe contraries muste be cured by contraries 476. ¶ Conuenticles 41. ¶ Corruption 485 Corruption in the Churche in the Apostles time 349. ¶ Councels summoned by princes page 436 Varietie about the time of the coūcell of Nice 330. The meaning of the. 6. Can. of the councell of Nice Controuersie about the number of Canons of the councell of Nyce page 334. The seconde councell of Nyce alleaged by the Replyer 247. A corrupt councell of Vrbane alleaged by the Replyer 23. A corrupt councell of Hispall alleaged by the Replyer 442. ¶ Courtes of Byshops 679. c. Court of faculties 561. Ecclesiasticall courtes executed in the Princes name 680. ¶ Crossing in Baptisme 614. c. Difference betwixt the papists crossing and ours 616. Crossing no Sacrament 617. ¶ Curates allowed 245. ¶ Cursed things consecrated to god page 284. D. ¶ Damasus alleaged to a wrong pur pose 248. Damasus added Gloria patri 489. ¶ Dayes obseruing of dayes 546. 547. 549. 〈◊〉 kindes of obseruing of Dayes 546 ¶ Deacons chosen by consent and vvhy 164 Of ministring preaching by Deacons 582. c Philip a Deacon baptised 582. 515 Deacons helpe in the ministration pag. 585 The Deaconship a step vnto the ministery 587 Deacons baptised 588. c. More pertayneth too the office of a Deacon than prouision for the poore 687. c. Some parte of the Deacons office not necessary vnder a Christian Prince 689. 690 VVhether Deacons were in euerye congregation 689 VVhy the Apostles left the Deaconship 758 ¶ Deanes 347. 746 ¶ Decrees pertayning too order not onely humane 107 ¶ Degrees of honour in the ministerie 458 Degrees in Diuinitie condemned 780. 781. Degrees in the Vniuersitie condemned 782 To take away Degrees is barbarousnesse 420 To be deliuered from euill what it signifieth 498 ¶ Demetrius bishop of Alexandria and Egypt 470 ¶ Defyling the nature of thinges is not in mans power 285 How farre the precepte in Deuteromie is extended 117 ¶ Digressions frō the matter to the persons 24. 235. 351. 370. 512. ¶ Dic Ecclesiae interpreted 636. 663 ¶ Dionisius Areopagita Archbishop of Athens 470. 324 Dionysius Ariopagite vsed of maister Ievvell agaynst Harding 608 Dionysius Alexandr Bishop of Alexandria and Pentapolis 470 Dionysius Corinthius b 719 Dionysius Corinth his epistles read in the Church 719 Dionysius deuided parishes 249. 250. ¶ Dioscorus Archbishop 338. 471. ¶ Discipline necessarie 559 Matters concerning Discipline 660 VVherein Discipline consisteth 661 The execution of Discipline not gyuen equally to all 313 ¶ Distinction quoad ministerium quoad ordinem iustified 390 Disobedience in ciuill matters is disobedience to God 282 Dissention domesticall the fo erunner of Destruction 705 ¶ Doctors of law left out of the Admonition and way 783 ¶ Doctrine framed to mens persons pag. 148 All pointes of Doctrine pure in this Church 129 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 interpreted 461 ¶ Dominion hath diuerse significations 63 Some kind of temporall Dominion denied to ministers 64 A minister maye exercise temporall Dominion 64. 65 ¶ Donatists and their properties 50. 622. ¶ A doubtfull saying 255 ¶ Drun kardes in the visible church pag. 177 E ¶ Easter obserued of the Apostles pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ King Edwardes priestes left 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ Elections act 1. act 6. agree 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not 〈◊〉 in the Apostles time 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not generall in
taketh away life nor fire that consumeth the body which I moue vnto but it is the sworde of correction and discipline which may by sundrie other meanes be drawne out than by shedding of bloud That sword of discipline I call for still and say wyth Zuinglius If it be permitted that euery In his Epistle before his booke called Ecclesiastes man may freely defend his errors and spread abrode in the Church false doctrine there wil be more contentions sectes and discorde among Christian Churches than euer there was among Infidels And again If euery man may without controlment preach among the people his own priuate phansie and opinion contrary to the determination and authority of the Church it will shortly come to passe that we shall haue more errors than Christians If I haue accused any man vniustly there is a lawe whervnto I am subiecte but your words are not of that weight neither your defense suche that therefore they please or satisfie wise men bicause you speake them If they can say no more for them selues than you haue sayd for thē then they must remayne still in the same suspicion If there be any iust cause why ye shoulde haue the good abearing agaynst any man if you will come foorthe and orderly require it I am sure you may haue it But oh the mildnesse the patience and the quietnesse of this spirite of yours To the godly Readers grace and peace from God c. TWo treatises ye haue heere ensuing beloued in Christ which ye muste reade without a 1. Thes. 5. 21 Iam. 1. 19. 20 Iam. ▪ 2. 1. parcialitie or blinde affection For otherwyse you shall neither see their meaning nor refrayne your selues from rashly condemning of them without iust cause For certayne men there are of great countenance whiche will not lightly like of them bicause they principally concerne their persons and vniust dealings ▪ whose credite is great and whose friends are many we meane the lordely Lords Archbishops Bishops Suffraganes Deanes Doctors Archdeacons Chauncellours and the rest of that proude generation whose kingdome muste downe holde they neuer so harde b cause their tyrannous Lordship can not stande b Math. 15. 23 Luc. 16. 15. with Christes kingdome And it is the speciall mischiefe of our Englishe Churche and the chiefe cause of backwardnesse and of all breache dissention For they whose authoritie is c Mat 20. 25. 26. Mat. 23. 8. 9 10. Mar. 10. 42. 43. Luc. 22. 15. c. forbidden by Christ wil haue their stroke without their felow seruants yea though vngratiously cruelly and Popelike they take vppon them to d Mat. 24 48 49. beate them and that for their own childish Articles beeing for the most part against the manyfest truthe of God First by experience their rigour hathe too playnely appeared euer since their wicked raigne and specially for the space of these fiue or sixe yeres last past togither Of the enormities whiche with suche rigour they maynteine these treatises do in parte make mention iustly crauing redrèsse thereof But the matters do require a larger discourse Onely the authors of these thoughte it their partes to admonishe you at this time of those inconueniences whiche men seeme not to thinke vpon and whiche without reformation can not but increase further dissention the one parte beeing proude pontificall and tyrannous and the worde of God for the other parte expresse and manifest as if it pleased the state to examine the matters it woulde be euident And woulde to God that free conference in these matters might be had For howsoeuer learned and many they seeme to be they should may in this realme find inowe to match them and shame them too if they holde on as they haue begonne And out of this realme they haue all the best reformed Churches throughout Christendome agaynst them But in a fewe wordes to say what we meane Either muste we haue a right e Math. 9. 37. 38. Ephe. 4. 11. 12. ministerie of God and a right f Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. gouernment of his Churche according to the Scriptures set vp both which we lacke or else there can be no right religion nor yet for contempt thereof can g Pro. 29. 18. Amos. 8. 11. 12. c. Ma. 21. 23. c. 1. Cor. 11. 30 Gods plagues be from vs any while differred And therefore though they linke in togither and sclaunderously charge poore men whome they haue made poore with grieuous faults calling them Puritans worse than the Donatists exasperating setting on such as be inauthoritie agaynst them hauing hitherto miserably handled thē with r uilings ▪ depriuations imprisonments banishments suche like extremities yet is these poore mens cause neuer the h Mat. 10. 16. 26. worse nor these chalengers the better nor God his i Esai 59. 1. hand the further of to linke in with his agaynst them nor you christian brethren must neuer the rather without examination k Exo. 23. 1. 2. Mat. 7. 1. 2. Iam 4. 11. 12 condemne them But thankfully take this taste whiche God by these treatises offereth you and weigh them by the worde of God and do your endeu ur euery man in his l 1. Cor. 5. 20 1. Cor. 7. 27 calling to promote his cause And let vs all with more m Psal. 50. 15. Mat. 7. 7. 1. Tim. 2. 1. 2 earnest prayer than we are wont earnestly commende it to God hys blessing and namely that it will please him by his spirite to lighten the heart of our most gracious Soueraigne and the rest in authoritie to the benefite of his small flocke and the ouerthrowe of their proude enimies that godlinesse may by them proceede in peace and God his glory through Iesus Christ be throughly aduaunced Whiche we call God to witnesse is our onely labour and suite And so presently we leaue you hartily beseeching God to graunt it Amen ¶ An answere to the Preface of the Admonition THese two treatises contayned in this Admonition as they be voyde of sound learning so are they full of blinde affection and stuffed with vncharitable and vnchristian Arrogancie and vnchristian speches of the Libellers termes and phrases Wherfore it is to be feared that they proceede not of loue but of hatred not of zeale but of malice not of humilitie but of arrogancie not of minds desirous to reforme but of stomackes seeking to deforme and confounde that which is in due forme and order by lawfull authoritie established For what charitable zealous and humble spirite would so spitefully and slaunderously speake of their brethren whose doctrine is pure whose zeale is feruent whose suffering for the Gospell hath beene in time of triall comparable with any mans that nowe liueth who haue also paynefully taught the worde of God in this Realme and do at this day and by whose ministerie the Gospell hathe taken roote and is come to that encrease that nowe God be thanked appeareth Surely
Gentils seeke where he dothe not forbidde them to séeke for meate drynke and clothing but to séeke for it too carefully and with mistrust of Gods prouidence as the Gentiles did In lyke maner here he forbiddeth not gouernment either in the ciuil or Ecclesiasticall state but he forbiddeth suche gouernment as the Gentils vsed and such corrupt affections as they had in desiring the same Touchying your argument I saye it hath two faultes Fyrst it is a fallacion Two faultes in the argument of T. C. à petitione principij for you take it as graunted that the Ciuill Magistrate is seuered from the Ecclesiasticall officer by bearyng dominion whyche I will not simplye graunte vnto you for that is partely oure question Secondly your minor is ambiguous The ciuill Magistrate doth not simply biffer from the Ecclesiastical by bearing dominion and therfore in that respect your argumente may be also placed in the fallacion of aequiuocation for the worde Dominion may haue diuers significations It may signifye suche dominion as Christe speaketh of in this place that is rule with oppression It maye also signifie the absolute authoritie of a Prince suche as is mentioned 1. Samuell 8. Thyrdely it maye signifie any peculiar office of superioritie and gouernment vnder the Prince at the appoyntment of the Prince as the Diuers significations of the word Dominion authoritie of a Iudge Iustice. Maior c. Laste of all it may signifye any iurisdiction or kynde of gouernment If you take it in eyther of the two fyrst significations your minor is true if in either of the two latter significations it is false For wée graunte that there is greate difference betwixte the dominion of Kings and Princes and betwixte the Jurisdiction and authoritie of Bishoppes Kings haue power ouer lyfe and goodes c. so haue not Bishops Kings haue authoritiie in al causes and ouer all persons withintheir dominions without any limitation if Bishops haue any suche dominion especially in Ciuill causes it is not in the respects they be Bishops but it is from the Prince and limited vnto them Touching theyr names and titles you saye he putteth a difference in these woordes and they are called gracious Lordes but it shall not be so with you c. The woordes of the twentith of Mathewe bée these And they that are greate exercise authoritie ouer them In the. 10. of Marke the same woordes be vsed In the. 22. of Luke the Gréeke woorde is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 benefici vocantur they are called bountifull or beneficiall whyche I sée not howe you can by anye meanes applye to your purpose For Mathewe and Marke referre thys clause It shall not bee so among you not to anye name but to the ambition and tyrannicall kynde of dominion whyche our Sauioure Christe there reproueth as it is moste manyfeste And therefore thys place of Luke muste also bée expounded by them Neither is this woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of any suche imperiousnesse that Chryste shoulde forbyd Caluinus hys Disciples the name M. Caluine in his Commentaries interpretyng these woordes of Saincte Luke sayeth thus As touchyng the woordes where Mathewe hath that kings exercise authoritie ouer them in Luke wee reade that they are called bountyfull in the same sense as though he shoulde saye Kings haue plenty of all thyngs and are very ryche so that they maye bee bountyfull and liberall And a little after he sayeth that they doe appetere laudem munificentiae desire the commendation of bountyfulnesse I knowe that certayne of the Kynges of Egypte were called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 munifici benefactores bountifull and benefactours and that they were delyghted to bée so called I know also that among the Hebrues theyr Princes were called Munifici liberales per antonomasian But what then if eyther they vaynegloriously desyred that name or were so called when they deserued rather the names of Tyrantes and oppressoures dothe it therefore followe that they be vnlawfull names for suche as maye deserue them The moste that can bée gathered of this place for any thyng that I perceyue is that the Kings of the Gentiles had vayne and flattering titles giuen them béeing nothing lesse in déede than that whiche their names did signifie and so maye it bée a good admonition for menne Howe the wordes Vos autem non sic may be reserred to names to learne to answere to theyr names and titles and to doo in déed that whiche by snche names and titles is signified Nowe then if you will haue Vos autem non sic but it shall not bee so wyth you to bée a prohibition to all Christians and especially to Bishops that they shall not ambitiously seeke dominion as the Gentiles dyd vniustly and tyrannously vse their authoritie as they also dyd nor haue names and titles to the whiche they doe not accordingly answere no more than the Gentiles did then I agrée with you But if you will haue Vos autem non sic to restrayne them from being called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is liberal benefactors c. as your interpretatiō agréeth not with the wordes of the other two Euangelistes so doth it not wyth any learned interpreter that I haue read To your argument concerning names and titles I answere as I did to the former Diuers kyndes of names Some names titles are proper to the ciuil Magistrate only as the names of Emperor King Prince Duke Erle c. These names are not giuē to any of the Clergie in this Church to my knowledge some names are cōmon to the Ciuill Magistrate Names common to ciuill and Ecclesiastical persons with Ecclesiasticall persons as certaine names of reuerence of superioritie of office The name of Gratious Lorde is a name of superioritie and of reuerence according to the manner of the countrey where it is vsed and therefore may well agrée eyther to the ciuill or Ecclesiasticall persons and in many places dyuers are called by this name Lord which is in Latin Dominus for reuerence and ciuilitie whiche haue verie small dominion As for the name of Archebishoppe or Metropolitane that is not proper to any ciuill Magistrate and therfore without the compasse of your argument Thus then you sée that some titles are proper to the ciuill Magistrate some to the Ecclesiasticall and some common to both wherby your maior is vtterly ouerthrowne As for this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vpon the whiche you séeme to grouude your argument I see not why it may not be common to all men that shewe themselues liberall and beneficiall There is no man denyeth but that there is and must be great difference betwixt the pompe and outwarde shewe of a Prince and the state of an Ecclesiasticall person bothe in titles and other maiestie and I thinke that he is verie blynde that séeth it not so to be in this Churche of England yet may the Ecclesiasticall person shewe foorth the countenance of his degrée
commaundement of God and are preferred before Gods commaundementes beeing neither contayned in the holy Scriptures nor founde decreed in the Councels of Bishops nor cōfirmed by the custome of the whole Church but are varied innumerably by the diuers maners of diuers Regions so that scarcely or neuer the causes can be found out whiche men followed in appoynting of them when occasion is offered I thinke they ought to he cut off without any doubt Hitherto Augustine Therefore in reciting the wordes of S. Augustine in this place first you haue omitted the wordes going before that expresse his mynde and declare that he meaneth suche ceremonies as be impedimentes to the obseruing of Gods commaundementes for hauing spoken of suche before in manyfest wordes he concludeth as I haue sayde on this sort Omnia itaque talia c. All suche ceremonies c. whiche words you haue fraudulently kept backe Secondly where S. Augustine speaketh of the vnreasonable multitude of ceremonies vsing these wordes innumerabiliter variantur are varied innumerably you haue likwyse lefte out this word innumerably which also expresseth Augustines meaning Laste of all you haue concealed a sentence in the middest whiche is very materiall to the declaring of Augustine his minde The sentence is this Ita vt vix aut omninò nunquà m inueniri possint causae quas in eis instituendis homines secuti sunt So that scarcely or neuer the causes can be founde oute whiche men followed in appoynting of them Whereby it is playne that he also meaneth suche ceremonies as bée appoynted without reason or cause And yet in the latter ende he addeth But the Churche of God beeing placed betwixte muche chaffe and darnell dothe tollerate many thinges c. But I am so farre from defending the multitude or burdensomnesse of ceremonies that I consent in all poyntes with that saying of Augustine wherefore this sentence is nothing to hotte for me but pleaseth me righte well And it had bin more for your commendation if you had not medled withall They whose names I héere recite thoughe I haue not written their wordes yet in the places whiche I haue qnoted doe affirme as muche as I recite them for whiche you might haue founde if you had taken paynes to searche for the same as I thinke verily you haue done and founde little for your purpose and therfore are content to passe them ouer in silence If I make so ofte repetitinons I doe but as I am occasioned by them whome I answere and as you do your selfe in this Replie though it pleaseth you not to be acknowne of it The sentences of Doctors and writers that I stuffe in argue that I haue red them and that I am not ashamed to lay them open to the ende my playne dealing may be séene in alledging of them But what did you before fynde faulte with my Dumbe doctors and can you not nowe abyde them speaking surely I intend not to be directed by so vnconstant a guyde If I proue things that no man denyeth you hadde the lesse laboure in replying If I translate whole leaues to so small purpose they be the sooner answered if vpon so lighte occasions I haue made so often digressions you will take héede I am well assured that you offende not in the lyke which truly you haue forgotten in this place for here is a digression without all reason But I will let your reuerende and modeste speaches passe and not recompence them with the lyke for it neither sauoureth the spirite of God neither yet any modest and good nature but a stomack swelling rather against the person than against the cause My purpose is not in this place to seke for rules to measure Ceremonies by but to proue that in Ceremonies and other externall things muche is lefte to the discretion of the Churche whiche is not to be founde in Scriptures and yet I know none of these rules vnméete for a diuine to search for or to vnderstand vnlesse it be suche a one as contemneth all other mens learning but his owne But how happeneth it that you haue answered nothing to the last place that I haue alleaged out of Augustine Or why say you nothing to my conclusion whiche is that by all those places of this learned father it is euident c. In all this your replie you haue greatly faulted in ignorantia Elenchi for you haue not reasoned nor answered ad idem but spoken altogether from the purpose T. C fauire in ignorantia Elenchi ▪ ¶ The opinion of M. Caluin of things indifferent Chap. 4. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 25. Sect. 2. 3. Pag. 26. 27. 28. Pag. 29. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. But I trust M. Caluines iudgement will weigh something with them who in his Institutions Cap. 13. Sect. 31. 32. speaking of traditions sayth in this sort Bicause the Lorde hath both faithfully and plainly comprehended and declared in the holie scriptures the whole summe of true righteousnesse all the parts of the true worshipping of him and what so euer is necessarie vnto saluation therfore in those things he is only to be heard as a maister or teacher But bicause in externall discipline ceremonies he would not particularly prescribe vvhat we ought to folow bicause he foresavv that this depended vpon the state and condition of the time neyther did iudge one form or maner to be agreable to al ages here we must haue a respect to those general rules which he gaue that according to thē might be examined such things as the necessitie of the Church requireth to be cōmanded for order decencie Finally bicause in these things he hath expressed nothing for that they are neither necessarie to saluation and may be diuersly applied to the edifying of the Church according to the maner and custome of euery countrey and age Therfore as the cōmoditie of the Church requireth as shal be thought conuenient both the old may be abrogated nevve appointed I graunt that we must not rashely nor often nor for euery lighte cause make innouations But vvhat hurteth and vvhat edifieth charitie wil best iudge which if vve vvil suffer to be the moderatrix al shal be safe wel Now it is the office of Christian people vvith a free cōscience vvithout su-superstition with a godlie minde and readie and willing to obey to obserue those things which are appointed according to this rule not to contemne them nor negligently to omit them so farre off ought they to be from breaking them openly thorough disdaine and contumacie But thou wilte say vvhat libertie of conscience can there be in so precise and straight obseruing of them truely the libertie of conscience may well stand vvich it if we shall consider that these lavves and decrees to the which we are bounde be not perpetuall or suche as are not to be abrogated but only externall rudiments of mans infirmities wherof notvvithstanding we all stande not in neede yet vvee all vse them bicause one
sayth Vi enim eligendi pontificis potestatem ad se tunc rapiebant Romani For the Romaines then tooke by force vnto them selues power to choose their Bishop The second place of Platina argueth the vndiscretenesse of the people both in placing and displacing their Bishop and the authoritie of the Emperour in taking this authoritie of placing and displacing from them when they doe abuse it for here hée put out Benet whom they had chosen placed Leo whom they had displaced wherby it appeareth that there was not then any one suche prescripte forme of electing the Bishop of Rome but that it was in the authoritie of the Emperour to abrogate alter or chaunge it All this is nothing to the improuing of my assertion for I denie not but that the people had interest in elections of Bishops in diuers places and especially in the Church of Rome a long tyme But this dothe not proue that there is any prescript rule in Scripture for the election of ministers whiche maye not be altered and chaunged from tyme to tyme as shall be moste conuenient for the presente state of the Churche naye whatsoeuer ye haue hitherto sayde proueth the contrarie Platina doth not write that Otho coufessed that the election of the Byshop of 〈◊〉 did not perteyne vnto him you should haue a care to report the words of the author truly it is one thing to say that the election of the Byshop perteyneth to the Cleargie and people another thing to say that it perteyned not to him for it might perteine to them al. And the same Platina in the life of Io. 13. saithe that after Iohn was condemned by a councell and therefore fled away the Emperoure Otho at the request of the Cleargie did create Leo Byshop of Rome his words are these Hanc ob causam Otho persuadente Platina in 〈◊〉 ta Ioan ▪ 13 clero Leonem Romanum ciuem Lateranensis ecclesiae Scriniarium Pontificem creat For thys cause Otho by the perswasion of the Cleargie chooseth Leo a Citizen of Rome and keper of the monuments of the Church of Laterane to be Byshop He further in that place declareth how the people after the Emperours departure deposed Leo and placed Benet and how the Emperoure by force compelled them to place Leo agayne That Otho the Emperoure did take this graunt at the Byshops hands that the election of the Byshop should be in him and not in the people M. Bale testifyeth in manifest words in the life of Leo. 8. where he saith thus After he tooke from the Cleargie and people of Rome the power of choosing their Byshop whiche Carolus Magnus had gyuen Bale in vita Leon. 8. vnto them before and by a Synodall decree did commit the same to Otho the Emperoure for the auoyding of seditions whiche were wont to be in these elections and Otho receyuing this graunt thankfully that he mighte shewe himselfe agayne beneficiall towards the Sea of Rome restored all things which Constantine is feyned to haue giuen c. In the which words also it is to be noted y t this libertie of choosing their Byshop was granted vnto the people and Cleargie of Rome by Carolus Magnus the which not only M. Bale testifyeth in this place but M. Barnes also in these words Leo the. 8. vnderstanding the wickednesse of the Romaines in obtruding their friends to the Church by bribes threatnings and other wicked deuises did restore the interest of choosing the Byshop to Otho the Emperoure Whereof I also conclude that it is in the power of the ciuill magistrate to take order for elections of ministers and that the consent of the people is not of any necessitie required therevnto Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Page 36. Sect. 6. And if the Emperours permitted the election of the Byshop to that Citie where it made most for their suretie to haue one of their owne appoyntment as was Rome whiche with their Byshops did oftentimes put the good Emperoures to trouble it is to be thought that in other places both cities and townes they did not denie the elections of ministers to the people besides that certaine of those constitutions are not of Rome but of any citie whatsoeuer And these Emperours were and liued betwene 500. and odde yeares vntill the very poynte of a thousande yeares after Christ so that hitherto this libertie was not gone out of y e Church albeit the Pop which brought in all tyrannie and went about to take all libertie from the Churches was now on horse back and had placed himselfe in that Antichristian seate Io. Whitgifte In that the Emperours did but permitte such elections to the people it is manifest that the interest was in them else why should they be said to haue permitted it In déed true it is that the Emperours so long did remitte of their interest in suche elections that afterwards when they would haue claymed their right therein they coulde not obteyne it but by violence were shut from all as the histories manifestly deelare Hitherto you haue proued nothing in question neyther haue you reasoned ad I de m T. C. hath not reason ad idem for you shoulde either haue proued that the election of ministers dothe of necessitie perteyne to the people or that the same manner of electing is conueniente for thys Church of England in this time and state both which I haue improued and do still vtterly denie neyther dothe any thing that you haue alleadged proue eyther of them Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 45. Sect. 3. Therefore this diuersitie of the state of the Church requireth a diue s kinde of gouernmente and another kinde of ordeyning ministers For this cause in Concilio Laodicensi whiche was Anno. 334. it was Concil Laodic decreed that the election of ministers shoulde not be permitted to the people T. C. Page 37. Sect. 1. 2. Those that write the Centuries (a) This is vntrue as shall appeare suspect this canon and doubt whether it be a bastard or no considering the practise of the Church But heere or euer you were aware you haue striken at your selfe For before you sayd that this order of choosing the minister by voyces of the Church was (b) An vntruth for I said not so but in the Apostles time and during the time of persecution And the firste time you can alleadge this libertie to be taken away was in the. 334. yeare of our Lord which was at the least 31. yeares after that Constantine the great began to reygne I say at the least bycause there be good authors that say that this councell of Laodicea was holdē Anno. 338. after the death of Ioninian the Emperoure and so there is 35. yeares betweene the beginning of Constantines reygne and this councell Now I thinke you will not say that the Church was vnder (c) The Churche was vnder persecution in Constantines time by the space of 13. yeares for
a Minister of the worde To conclude if the election of a Byshop had of necessitie perteyned to the people Paule woulde not haue written in this manner to Timothie as he hath done describing vnto him what qualities he that is to be elected Byshoppe oughte to haue but he woulde rather haue written the same to the people or willed Timothie to declare it vnto them Neyther doth he any where in any of hys Epistles wryte to any Church to gyue them any instructions in this so necessarie a matter but onely wryteth of the same in those Epistles to Timothie and Titus beyng Byshops which maye be an argument that the ordering of Ministers doth properly apperteyne to a Bishop and that thys also manus citò c. is spoken to Timothie in that respect A man mave wryte to hys friende that hath interest in an election but Paul doth not onely write vnto Timothie as to one that hath interest but as to one in whom the whole interest consisteth When you say that Paule attributeth that to Timothie that was common to him wyth moe if you meane moe Bishops then it is true for it is a rule for all Bishops to follow but if you meane other of the people then doe you but shifte of the matter with ghessing To your proofes of that phrase and kynde of speache I haue answered before it is but a starting hole to flie vnto when you are foyled by the playne and euident woordes of the Scripture That whiche is by you alleaged 2. Ti. 1. and 1. Ti. 4. maketh for my purpose for you haue before confessed that imposition of handes was not by Fol. 31. Sect. 4. the Churche and people but by the Elders and Ministers and you alleage these places 1. Timo. 4. and 2. Timo. 1. to proue the same And therefore I muche maruell to what ende you nowe alleage them excepte it be to proue your phrase for they cannot proue anye election made by the people vnlesse you will say and vnsay at your pleasure But to put you out of doubt imponere manus to lay on hands somtimes signifieth the To laye on hands is diuersly taken Bullinger ceremonie only of laying on of hands and somtimes the whole maner forme of ordering And in this second signification it is taken 1. Ti. 5. 2. Ti. 1. Bull. expoundyng this place 1. Ti. 5. sayth manus enim imponere aliud non est quā ecclesiae aliquē praeficere ordinare To lay on hands is nothing else but to ordeine appoynt one ouer the Church And interpreting y t also 2. Ti. 1. he saith Paulus in praesenti per donū dei prophetiae donū intellexit functionē Episcopalē ad quam vocarat Timotheū dominus sed per ministeriū Pauli qui ideò nunc ▪ dicit donum illud in Timotheo esse per impositionem manuum suarum Paul doth heere vnderstande by the gifte of God the gifte of Prophecie and the offyce of a Bishop vnto the which the Lord had called Timothie but by the ministerie of Paule who for that cause nowe sayth that that gift was in Timothie by the imposition of his hands And M. Caluine Institu Cap. 8. Sect. 50. decideth this matter fully in these wordes Sed Paulus ipse alibi se Caluine c. But Paule himselfe in another place doth testifie that he and no moe did lay his hands vpon Timothie I admonishe thee sayth he that thou stirre vp the grace which is in thee by the imposition of my handes For where it is sayde in the other Epistle of the laying on of the handes of the eldership I do not so take it as thoughe Paule spake of the Colledge of Elders but in this name videlicet presbyterij I vnderstand the ordination it selfe as if he should say endeuour thy selfe that the grace be not in vayne which thou hast receyued by the laying on of hands when I ordeyned thee a minister Agayne vpon this 1. Tim. 5. he sayth thus Impositio manuum ordinationem significat signum enim pro re ipsa capitur The imposition of handes signifieth the ordering for the signe is taken for the thing it selfe For what is it to appoynt but to call elect ordeyne Moreouer that which Paule sayth to Titus Vt constituas c. dothe expounde this to Timothie manus citò c. and therefore in déede I make no difference in this place betwixte election ordeyning and imposition of handes Last of all you say that you answere though this mighte agree to Timothie alone c. If it agreed to Timothie alone it must néedes followe that it may agrée to other Bishops also for Timothie was a Bishop as it shall be by better reason proued than you Tract 8. are able to shewe any to the contrarie This that you speake of his Euangelistship and of his superioritie in that respect is onely spoken without reason or authoritie but you shall haue store of bothe to the contrarie God willing when I come to that place I am not so lauishe of my witnesses as you are of scornefull and vnséemely tauntes and speaches Bothe Ambrose and Chrysost. doe not say that Paule héere warneth Timothie onely to be circumspect but to be circumspect in appoynting of Ministers and if it were not so I doubt not but that I shoulde heare of it The words are spoken to Timothie in respecte that he was Bishop neither hath the Apostle giuen any suche like Admonition to any Church in any of his Epistles as I haue before noted And therfore Ambrose in his exposition of this place to Timothie after that he had shewed what circumspection the Apostle would haue to be vsed in ordeyning of Ministers concludeth thus Haec Episcopus custodiens castum se exbibebit religioni A Bishop obseruing Ambrose these things shall shewe himselfe pure in religion Whereby he signifieth that this precept is properly perteyning to a Bishop Chrysostome also in the. 1. Tim. 4. vpon Chrysostome these wordes Cum impositione manuum presbyterij sayth Non de presbyteris hoc loco sed de Episcopis loquitur ▪ non enim profectò presbyteri ipsum ordinarunt He speaketh not of priests in this place but of Bishops for certaynely priestes did not ordeyne him And Oecolam Oecolampad vpon the same wordes Presbyteros dicit Episcopos neque enim presbyteri Episcopum ordinabant He calleth Bishops Priestes for Priests did not ordeyne a Bishop Whereby it playnely appeareth that these auncient fathers thinke this precept manus citò ne cui imponas lay thy handes sodenly on no man to be giuen onely to Timothie in the respect that he was Bishop and therefore also to apperteyne vnto Bishops onely to ordeyne Ministers Hierome vpon that place to Titus sayth Audiant Episcopi qui habent constituendi Hierome Presbyteros per vrbes singulas potestatem sub quali lege ecclesiasticae potestatis ordo teneatur Let Bishops which haue authoritie to appoynt
diuers poyntes agrée not fully with him especially in the interpretation of some places of the Scripture when as in my opinion they come néerer to the true meaning and sense of it in those poyntes than he dothe I did neuer cleaue to Musculus or to any other man so that for his or their sakes I derogate any thing from suche as be comparable to them and haue deserued singular commendation for their writings If any one or mo learned men be of my iudgement though all be not I am not ashamed to vse their testimonie in that poynte though in some other poyntes I do not consent vnto them If I either vnioynt or racke in peeces from the rest any worde or sentence of Master Caluines make it knowne set it open that I may iustly beare the blame of it but if I deale truly and faythfully with him if I set downe his owne words whole sentences whole sections and as you say whole leaues without adding altering or diminishing then howe can you excuse your so vntrue and vniust charging of me Which if it were not so common and vsuall with you might the better be tollerated Chapter 7. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 46. Sect. 1. It is the generall consent of all the learned fathers that it perteyneth to the office of a Bishop to order and electe Ministers of the worde In this sayth Hierome in Epist. ad Euagrium A Bishop dothe excell Hierome all other Ministers in that the ordering and appoynting of Ministers dothe properly perteyne vnto him And yet these men saye that the righte of ordering Ministers dothe at no hande apperteyne to a Bishop But for the order and manner of making Ministers peruse the booke made for that purpose and as I sayde before so I say agayne if thou hast any iudgement thou canst not but lyke it and allowe of it T. C. Pag. 40. Sect. 3. 4. 5. In the ende you saye it is the generall consent of all the learned Fathers that it belongeth to the Bishoppe to choose the Minister Because you acquaynte my eares with suche bolde and vntrue affirmations I can nowe the more paciently heare you thus baunting your self as though you had all the fathers by hearte and carried them aboute with you wheresoeuer you wente whereas if a man would measure you by the skill in them which you haue shewed heere he would hardly beleeue that you had red the tenthe parte of them Are all the learned Fathers of that minde I thinke then you would haue bin better aduised than to haue set down but one when as you know a matter in controuersie wil not be tried but by two or three witnesses vnlesse the Lorde speake him selfe and therfore you giue me occasion to suspecte that bicause you cite but * I had cited Am brose and Chrysostome before one you knowe of no more Nowe let vs see what your one witnesse will depose in this matter And fyrst of all you haue done more wisely than simply in that you haue altered Hieromes wordes For where he sayth wherein dothe a Bishop differ from an Elder but onely in ordeyning you saye a Bishop dothe excell all other Ministers c. I reporte me heere vnto your conscience whether you dyd not of purpose chaunge Hierome his sentence bicause you woulde not let the Reader vnderstande what oddes is betweene S. Hieromes Bishops in his dayes and betweene our Lorde Bishops For then the Bishop had nothing aboue an Elder or other mininister but onely the ordeyning of the Minister Nowe he hathe a thousande Parishes where the Minister hathe but one For the matters also of the substaunce of the ministerie the Bishop nowe excommunicateth whiche the Minister can not Besides diuers other things whiche are meere ciuill whiche the Bishop dothe and whiche neither Bishop nor other Minister oughte to doe I saye I reporte me to your conscience whether you altered Hieromes wordes to this ende that you woulde keepe this from the knowledge of your reader or no. For answere to the place it is an (a) It is your argumēt it is none of mine my wor des importetio such thing euill argument to saye the Bishop had the ordeyning of the Minister Ergo he had the election of him The contrarie rather is a good argument the Bishop had the ordeyning of the Minister therefore he had not the election of him For ordination and election are dyuers (b) Diuers mem bers of the whol may concurre in one and the self same person though one of them can not be verified of an other members of one whole whiche is the placing of the Pastor in his Churche and one member can not be verified of an other as you can not saye your foote is your hande I will not denie but that sometimes these wordes may be founde confounded in Ecclesiasticall writers but I wyll shew you also that they are distinguished and that the election perteyneth to the people and (c) Then haue you al this while striued in vay ne ordeyning vnto the Bishop Io. Whitgifte Shew me one Father that denieth that which I héere affirme if you neyther doe nor can then may my skill in the Fathers and reading also be as muche for any thing héere to the contrarie as you thinke I woulde haue it séeme to be But I will not followe you in your vayne of gybing I had cited before Chrysostome and Ambrose for the same purpose so that my witnesses be thrée and therefore sufficient except you wil make some lawfull exception agaynst them but bicause you may vnderstande that I haue plentie and store sufficient I will rehearse but one sentence vnto you of M. Caluines in his Institu Cap. 8. Ordinari Episcopos à suis Metropolitis iubent Caluine omnes veteres Synodi All auncient Synodes do commaund that Bishops should be ordeyned of their Metropolitanes What cause shoulde I haue thus to reporte Hieromes words to proue such difference betwixte the Bishop and other Ministers séeing that dothe not perteyne to this place and agayne considering that I haue at large proued the same in another place Are you so dull of vnderstanding as you would séeme to be doe not bothe the wordes that goe before and those that followe also declare my purpose in vsing that place I doe not translate Hieromes wordes but I declare Hieromes meaning and if the offence be in this that I say a bishop doth excel al other ministers then dothe your owne Author Illiricus out of whome you haue verbatim borrowed so muche and the other writers of the Centu. offende also for thus he sayth Ordinatio ministrorum propria erat Episcopi quo solo iure caeteris sacerdotibus praestantiorem esse Episcopum Centu. 4. ca. 7. Hieronymus scripsit ad Euagrium The ordeyning of Ministers was proper vnto the Bishop by the whiche as Hierome wrote vnto Euagrius a Bishop onely excelleth other priestes out of whom as I haue
Eradium mibi successorem volo c. Therefore least anye shoulde complayne of me I doe heere signifye vnto you all my will whyche I thynke to bee the wyll of God I will haue Eradius the mynister to bee my successoure c. Lastlye he sheweth howe he hymselfe was appointed Byshop his predecessor being yet aliue Here it is to be noted first what stirre began to be in Augustines time about such Notes out of the restunome of Augustine elections made by the people which was the cause why he and others appointed vnto themselues successors whilest they yet liued Secondly that Seuerus appointed to himselfe a successor and thought it not necessary therein to require the consent of the people which he would not haue neglected if it had bin either necessary or vsuall Last of all that Augustine pronounceth Eradius to be his successor in the presence of the people that they might know his minde but yet without asking their voyces although they did willingly of themselues consent for that which afterward he requireth them to subscribe vnto was the petition that he made vnto them no more to trouble hym with their ciuil matters but that they would resort vnto Eradius his successor for such causes When the reader hathe well considered these circumstances which he shall better learne in the place itselfe then let hym iudge how muche it serueth for your turne It may appeare by that Epistle of Ambrose what contention there was in Vercellensi Contention about popular elections ecclesia to the which he wrote about the election of their Byshop for they had bene long destitute of one as it there appeareth Wherefore he exhorteth them to agrée ▪ ment by the example of their predecessors who so well agréed in choosing of Eusebius wherevpon he saith meritò vir tantus meaning Eusebius euasit quem omnis elegit ecclesia Ambro. epi. 82 meritò creditum quòd diuino esset electus iudicio quem onmes postulauissent He worthily proued a notable man whome the whole Church elected he was rightly thought to be chosen by gods appointment whome euery one desired And who doubteth but that he is called of God whome the whole Church without suite without sinister affection without intent to mainteine factions and schismes doth desire this proues that in Ambrose his time in that Church the people desired their Byshop which is not to be denied but it also sheweth that in the same time there were maruellous contentions about such elections which is to be considered Nazianzene in that oration hath not one argument to proue that the election of the minister Nazianzene performeth not that for the which he is auouched Contention in popular elections doth perteyne to the Church neyther doth he confute those things which should séeme to hinder it for there is none alleadged only he declareth what a maruellous stirre and sedition there was at two sundry times in the Church of Caesaria about the election of the Byshop what violence was vsed about the same how the people were deuided among themselues first and after against their ministers Likewise how they suddenly misliked their owne choise and would haue disanulled it if they had not bin restreyned of their willes by Nazianzene his father How the Emperoure also and the ruler of the citie taking part with the factious company were by him pacifyed Surely this maketh very little to the commendation of popular elections Nay in the second contention that he there reciteth declaring who were the especiall authours of it he saith Ecclesiae enim a malo erant immunes pariter opulentiores potētiores sed omnis The common people especial authours of tumults in elections impetus ac seditio inter plebem erat ac precipuè vilissimam For the churches meaning the Cleargie were cleare from that mischiefe so were the richer sort also and they which were of greater authoritie but all the violence and sedition was among the common people and among them especially which were of the basest sort And a little after telling how his father pacifyed that sedition he saith that his father writ vnto them admonished them p pulum sacerdotes necnon alios quotquot qui ad gradum pertinebant obtestabatur eligebat * calculum ferebat c. He humbly intreated the people the priests and others which perteyned 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to that order he elected chose c. What is here spoken that maketh not rather against you than with you no man denieth but that the people at this time had interest in the election of the minister in diuers Churches but that doth not proue that they ought to haue so nowe or that the Byshop hath no interest in the same nay inconueniences of popular elections did then manifestly appeare There is not as yet one authoritie brought in to proue that the ordering of ministers T. C. reasoneth not ad idem and defendeth not the Admonition doth at no hand apperteine to the byshop whiche the Admonition affirmeth and I haue improued but you haue not replyed vnto it kéeping your olde accustomed manner still not to reason ad idem for whereas you shoulde conclude thus the ordering of ministers doth at no hand perteyne to a Byshop you conclude thus The election T. C. letteth slip y e which he shold proue and yet proueth not that which he would The propositions that should haue bin defended of a Pastor or Byshop perteyneth not to one man alone And yet you haue not proued that only you bring in examples of popular elections and so haue I broughte in both examples and authorities for the sole election of the Byshop for they be both true But you ought to proue these two propositions if you will iustify the Admonition firste that popular elections ought to be perpetuall and secondly that the ordeyning of ministers dothe at no hand perteyne to the Byshop But you subtilly passe these ouer and cast a mist before your readers eyes in heaping vp out of Illiricus néedelesse proofes Chap. 7. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Page 41. Sect. 3. And that this election continued in the Churche vntill within a CCC yeares at what tyme there was more than Egyptiacall and palpable darknesse ouer the face of the whole yearth it may appeare in a treatise of Flaccus Illiricus whiche he calleth an addition vnto his booke that he entituleth the catalogue of the witnesses of truth of whome I confesse my selfe to haue bin (a) Not only much but almost altogither muche holpen in this matter of the choise of the Church touching the ministers especially in the Emperours edicts whiche are before cited For lacking opportunities diuers ways I was contented somewhat to vse the collection to my commoditie for the more speedy furtherance and better proceeding in other matters which I will leaue of bycause they may be there red of those that be learned whome I wil also referre to the sixt
muche as one word of any Bishop of Cōstantinople And y t it may appeare how far you ar ouerséene in this place you shal vnderstād that the last Emperour of whom Eusebius maketh any mētion in these bookes is Dioclesian who came to the Empire Anno. 288. but Constantinople was builded Anno. 335. So that by your assertion the Byshop of Constantinople was confirmed aboue 40. yeares before Constantinople was Chap. 7. the. sixte Diuision T. C. Page 42. Lin. 2. Sect. 1. I will adde only one place which if it be more (*) Part riunt montes c. bitter than the rest and cut the quicke more neare you shall not be angrie with me but first with those that were the Authors of it and then with him that wrote it Eusebius in the sixth booke speaking of Origen which was admitted not of one Byshop but of many Byshops to teach sheweth how the Byshops were reprehended by the Byshop of Alexandria called Demetrius bycause they had admitted him (a) An vntruth as will appeare without the election of the Presbyterie of the Church which were the chiefe in the election in euery Church and vnto the whiche the Churches did committe the gouernment of themselues in euery seuerall towne and citie and saith that it hath not bin heard that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is that the lay men should teach when the Byshops were present Whereby it is euident that he counted him (b) Vntruth for O gea was yet a lay man and not admitted minister by any a lay man which was only admitted by the Byshops although they were many not being first elected by the presbyterie of that Church whereof he was the teacher Io. Whitgifte The terrible preface that is here prefixed would make any man quake that is not acquainted with such vayne bragges But soft man awhile you do but dreame for there is no such matter in that booke of Eusebius Did you neuer heare tell of any that T. C. smiteth at others but woundeth himselfe labouring to smite at another haue deadly wounded themselues I beléeue it will fall so out with you in this bitter and sharpe place and then shall not I neede to be angry with you you shall haue more cause to chafe with your selfe For answer to the place I say it is altogither by you falsifyed and most vntruly Eusebius fa sityed by T. C. alleadged the only thing that Demetrius found fault with was bycause Origen being a lay man did teache in the Churche Byshops being present for he saithe it was neuer heard that lay mē should teach in the churches Byshops being present But what is sayde to this nescimus quomodò c. wherein he affirmeth we know not how that thing which is not Eu. li. 6. ca. true seeing there may be found diuers who when they were able to profyte the brethren and that the holy Byshops had exhorted them to instruct the people did after this sorte teach in the Church As Euelpis was required to do at Laranda by Neon and Paulinus at Iconium by Celsus and at Synada Theodorus by Atticus whiche were all blessed brethren And it is very likely that this thing was done also in other places whiche we know not of Yea Demetrius himselfe suffered him to do the like in Alexandria as it is manifest in sundry places of that booke and euen in the end of the same chapter He retourneth to Alexandria and doth againe employ himselfe to his accustomed diligence in teaching But bycause this place is so confidently auouched and so vntruly I will set it downe as it is in Eusebius lib. 6. cap. 20. where he speaking of Origen saith thus In the meane time by reason of a greate warre begonne in that citie leuing Alexandria and thinking that he could not safely abide in Aegypt he went into Palestina and remayned at Caesaria where also he was requested of the Byshops of that countrie that he would dispute and expound the holy scriptures before the whole Church when as yet he was not ordeyned minister The whiche thing is hereby manifest for that Alexander the Byshop of Hierusalem and Theoctistus Byshop of Caesaria writing to Demetrius of him do after this sort render an accompt of that deed Furthermore he addeth this also in his letters that it was neuer heard of neyther yet at any time seene that lay men did teach in the Church Byshops being present wherein we know not how he affirmeth that thing which is not true c. As it is set downe before What one word is there here that sheweth how the Byshops were reprehended by the Byshop of Alexandria called Demetrius bycause they had admitted Origen without the election of the presbyterie of the Churche whiche were the chiefe in the election in euery Church and vnto the which the Churches did committe the gouernment of themselues in euery seuerall towne and citie c. as you affirme Nay is there any thing sounding that way the only cause why Demetrius reproueth them as I haue said is bycause they suffered Origen in their presence to interpret the scriptures in the Churche being as yet Origen was then indeede a lay man but a lay man And yet you sée how Demetrius is reproued for that also how by sundry examples it is there shewed that it is no rare thing for a lay man to interpret the scriptures in the Church the Byshop being present if he be there vnto called by the Byshop Is this your bitter place is this that terrible cutter Indéede it maketh your doings vncyphered and shrewdly woundeth you if you can well consider it But to make the matter yet more plaine Euseb. in the same booke and. 23. chapter sheweth how Origen afterwards accepit presbyterij gradum in Caesaria palestinae ab eius loci Euse. lib. 6. 23. Episcopis was made minister in Caesaria Palestinae of the Byshops of that countrie The which thing Demetrius misliked also not for any iust cause but only of malice for although Demetrius at the firste esteemed well of Origen and bare good will vnto hym yet afterwarde when he saw him maruellously to prosper and to become very famous and well accompted of he then sought meanes not only to discredite him but those also which had preferred him to the ministerie laying to his charge that which he had done being a boy that is gelding of himselfe as Eusebius doth at large declare lib. 6. cap. 8. You sée therfore how vntruly you haue reported Eusebius and that there is no suche cause by him expressed why Demetrius reproued the Byshops as you feyne to be But I partly smell your meaning which I suppose to be this that all we whiche are admitted into the ministerie by the Byshops withoute your presbyterie are but lay men whereby you would insinuate that all those which haue bin baptised by vs are not baptised bycause you say that it is of the
certayne forme prescribed The end of the Apostles in ecclesiasticall pollicie must be regar ded and not their deedes Ibidem of electing ministers and that the dooings of the Apostles in that matter are not at all tymes of necessitie to be folowed but it is sufficient to respect their ende and purpose that is that there be méete ministers and therfore M. Beza sayth No man may here prescribe any certayn rule but if the conscience be good it is an easy matter to determine what is moste expedient for tyme place and other circumstances Chap. 8. the second Diuision 2 Touching the seconde that is for the diuersities of elections afterwarde vsed in That the people were not always admitted to the election of ministers Eusebius Zuinglius Cyp ian Concil Ancy Antiochen Laodicen Can. Apost 1. the Churche and that the people were not alwayes admitted to the same I referre you to that whiche hath ben spoken before out of Eusebius and Zuinglius of the Apostles appoynting of Iames to bée Bishoppe of Hierusalem of Cypri lib. 1. Epist. 4. where he plainly confesseth that electing by the people was not then generall in that he sayeth Et fe è per prouincias vniuersas tenetur and dothe the contrary himselfe in choosing one Aurelius without the consent of the people Lib. 2. Epist 5. Lykewise of the 18. Can. of the Councell of Ancyrane 18. Canon of the Councell of Antioche 12. and 13. Can. Con. Lao diceni All which Canons and Councels I haue alleadged before In the fyrste of the Canons attributed to the Apostles it is decréed that a Bishoppe shoulde be ordeyned of two or thrée Bishoppes and the Gréeke woorde is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In the seconde of the same Canons the ordeinyng of Priestes Deacons and other clearks is cōmitted to the Bishop alone the gréeke word there is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Can. 2. lykewise In the. 35. or 36. of the same Canons it plainly appeareth that Bishops were chosen Can. 35. 36. without the consent of the people In the. 4. Canon of the Councell of Nice the election of Bishops is appoynted only Cōcil Nicanū Can. 4 Antioch 19. to Bishops It appeareth plainly in the. 19. ca. Con. Anti cheni that only the Metropolitane and other ministers had interest in the ordeinnig and apointing of Byshops It is manyfest by Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 8. and 23. that Origen was admitted and ordeined Eus. li. 6. ca. 8. 23. Hieronymus Epist. ad Nepotian Distinct. 62. Nulla minister only by Bishops Hierome in his Epistle ad Nepotianum in the wordes before recited signifyeth that the election of Priestes doth p rteyne to the Bishop Gratian distinct 62. hath this Canon made by Leo who was Bishop of Rome Nulla ratio s it c. No reason permitteth that they should be accompted amōgst the Bishops which are neither chosen of the Clearks nor desired of the people nor consecrated of the Bishops of that prouince with the iudgement and allowance of the Metropolitane The Glosse expounding what this is to be desired of the people saythe that it is to giue testimonie vnto them And no man denieth but that suche as are to be admitted into the ministerie ought to haue a testimonie of their lyfe conuersation and that it should be lawfull for any man to except againste them if there be iuste cause but yet the iudgement not to rest in the people And distinct 6 there is this lawe Laici nullo modo se debent in s rere electioni The laye Distinct. 63. Laici people ought by no meanes to thruste themselues into the election or to meddle with the election There are certain Canons collected out of the gréek Synodes by Martin Bracaren Episco and they are to be founde to Conci 2. the firste of the Canons is this the Tom. 2. Con. whiche Gratian also hath distinct 63. Non licet populo c. It is not lawfull for the people to make the election of them which are preferred to priesthoode but it is in the iudgement of the Bishops that they should proue him which is to be ordeined whether he bee instructed in the word and in faith and in spirituall conuersation The same may be also proued by the 2. and. 3. Canons folowing In the same distinc there is this Canon taken oute of the. 8. generall Councell Consecrationes promotiones c. This holie and generall Councell agreeyng with former Councels hath decreed and enacted that the consecrations and promotions of Bishops should be made by the election of the Cleargie and by the decree and Colledge of the Bishops Theodoret lib. 4. cap. 5. sayth that when Auxentius béeing an Arian was depriued Theod. lib. 4. cap. of the Bishoprike of Millain Valentinian the Emperour called together the Bishops and willed them to place such a one in that bishoprike as he might safely commit himself vnto c. and when as they desyred the Emperour that he himself would choose one whome hée thought méete the Emperour tolde them agayne that it were much better for them to elect one bycause they were best able to iudge of his metenesse And although the people béeing diuided tumultuously requested the Bishops some for one some for an other and at the length all desired to haue Ambrose yet it maye euidently appeare that the interest of the election was in the Bishops and the confirmation and allowyng of the same in the Emperoure And in that the Bishoppes woulde haue committed the whole matter to the Emperour it may appeare that it greatly skilleth not who doo choose so that suche be chosen as be fit for the place In the. 63. distinct of Gratian it is also to be séene that sometyme the election Distinct. 6 and allowing of Bishops was wholly giuen to the Emperour as we may reade in the decrée of Adrian the Pope there mentioned and in the decrée of Leo the first where he sheweth howe that the dissentions heresies and schismes that were in the Churche was the cause why that both the election of the Romain Bishop and of other also was committed to the Emperour Whereby it is euident thal the people haue not at all tymes nor in all places had interest in the elections of ministers I knowe that Gratian in the same distinction sayth as muche in the behalfe of the people but therby we maye gather that this election hath bene variable and from tyme to tyme vsed according to the place tyme and persons For further proofe hereof I coulde recite the varietie that nowe is and heretofore also hath bene euen in reformed Churches but to auoyd tediousnesse I referre that to euery mans owne searche This is moste certaine that the forme prescribed in the second Admonition and in this Replie of T. C. also if it be considered will appeare to haue in it nihil Apostolicum nothing Apostolicall but to differ as muche from any forme that was then vsed as
this doth that we retaine in the Churche of England at this day and a great deale more Chap. 8. the. 3. Diuision The reasons why the people haue bene secluded from such elections and so ought Why the people haue bene nowe ought to be debarred from the election to be are these 1. Fyrst the meruailous contentions that haue bin in suche kinde of elections by the sinister affections of the people béeyng easily moued to diuision and partes taking vpon euery light occasion Examples wherof there be infinite almoste in euerye Contention about the election of ministers election as it may enidently appeare to euery one that hath but lyghtly runne ouer any Ecclesiastical historie When Damasus was chosen Bishop of Rome there was one Vrsicinus a Deacon Plat. in vita Damasi sette vp against him and the contention was so vehement betwixte them and the rage of the people so intemperate that they fell from voyces to blowes in somuch that there was many slaine euen in the place of election What sedition was there moued in the election of Boniface the second when Platina Dioscorus contended with him for the Bishoprike the people were so deuided that the contention could not be ended but with the death of Dioscorus The lyke brawle was in the elections of Conon Sergius Paulus 1. Constantinus Platina and almost in euery election made in that seate as it is euident in suche stories as especially entreate of the liues of the Bishops of Rome The lyke sturre there hath bin in other places also especially after that the churches were deuided with heresies and sects At Constantinople after the death of Alexander their Byshop there was a maruellous vprore for his successor some desiring to haue Paule a Catholike and some Macedonius an Arrian this contention was so vehement that the whole citie was disturbed and many slaine on both parties yea euen the Emperours officer that was sent to appease it Sozom. lib. 3. cap. 4. 7. The strife that was in the same place after the death of Atticus Philip Prochis and Sisinius striuing for the Byshopricke at one time Socrates testifyeth lib. 7. cap. 26. Sozom. lib. 3. cap. 4. 7. Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 26. Lib. 7. cap. 35. Sozom. lib. 4 cap. 28. Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 9. the same doth he write also to haue bin betwixt Philip and Prochis after the depriuation of Nestorius lib. 7. cap. 35. After Endoxius remoued from Antioch to Constantinople there was in Antioch great strife for a successor as the same Sozo sheweth lib. 4. cap. 28. where he addeth these wordes as in such things it commeth to passe that ther are diuers contentions and seditions betwixt the Cleargie and betwixt the people Socrates lib. 5. cap. 9. declareth the like tumultes to haue bin aboute the election of Flauianus and he addeth atque ita Antiochena ecclesia denuò non propter fidem sed propter Episcopos scinditur And so the Church of Antioch is agayne deuided not for matters of faith but for their Byshops I declared before out of Nazianzene in his funerall oration at the buriall of his father Nazianzene what great trouble and daunger was at Cesaria in his time about the election of their Byshops The same also I noted out of Augustine Epist. 110. it was the cause why August in tom 2. epi. 110. both he and his predecessor in their life times did prouide to themselues successors as it is there manifest Socrates lib. 6. cap. 11. declareth what contention there was at Ephesus about the election Socrat. lib. 6. cap. 11. of their Byshop the people being deuided into sundry factions in somuche that Chrysostome was himselfe enforced to appoint vnto them one Heraclis his Deacon The same Authoure lib. 7. cap. 7. testifyeth the like contention to haue bin in Alexandria Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 7. Euagrius li. 2. cap. 5. whilest some desired Timothie an Archdeacon othersome Cyrill Euagrius li. 2. ca. 5. writeth thus Cum antem bic Proterius c. when this Proterius was placed in the Byshops seate of Alexandria there arose a greate and intollerable tumult among the people which were tossed with diuers sentences for as it often falleth out in such cases some would haue Dioscorus agayne others stucke stoutly to Proterius so that many incurable mischieses were committed For Priscus the Rhetorician writeth that the gouernour of Thebes came the same time to Alexandria and saw the people wholly to set them selues agaynste the magistrates and that when the garison of souldiers woulde haue kepte backe the sedition they beate them backe with stones into the temple whiche was in times past called the temple of Serapis then the people comming thither with speede tooke the temple and burned the souldiers quicke But whēthe Emperour vnderstoode herof he sent thither two thousand new souldiers who hauing a prosperous winde passage arriued the sixt day after at the great citie of Alexandria and so raged against the wiues and daughters of the men of Alexandria that much more mischiefe was now wrought than before To what further inconuenience this intollerable contention came afterwards the same Euagrius writeth cap. 8. where he also describeth the manners and conditions of Euagrius li. 2. cap. 8. the people at large and declareth how easely they are moued to contentions and tumultuous dealing how willingly led by any factious person that pretēdeth liberty c. In the end he sheweth how villanously and cruelly they murdered Proterius appointed to be their Byshop What should I speake of that hurlyburly that was in Millains before the election Theod. lib. 4. cap. 6. Chrysost. lib. 3. de sacerdotio of Ambrose whereof Theodo speaketh lib. 4. cap. 6. I shal desire y e learned reader to peruse Chrysostome in the. 3. booke that he writeth de sacerdotio wher he speaketh of this matter plentifully declareth y e maruelous partialitie the vntollerable cōtentiōs that y e people vsed was y e cause of in such electiōs If I were disposed to heape vp examples I could fill a large volume but these being almost in the best time of the Church vnder Christian Princes manifestly declare what intollerable inconuenience ensueth such elections as are committed to the people especially in these matters 2 My seconde reason is that if suche elections shoulde be committed to the people the iuill Magistrate who hath the chéefe gouernment of the Churche and to whome the especiall care of religion doth apperteine should not be able to procure such reformation nor such consent and agreement in matters of religion as he is when he hath himselfe the placing of Bishops and such as be the chiefe of the Cleargie for the people The election of ministers by the people an impedimēt to the ciuill magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters who are commonly be t to nouelties and to factions and most ready to receyue that doctrine that séemeth to be
the first in the defense of the marriage of Priests sayth that Dionisius Areopagi a S. Paules scholler was by S. Paule made Archbishop of Athens T. C. Pag. 68. Sect. vlt. The times wherein Uolusianus liued declare sufficiently how littell credite is to be giuen to his testimonie which were when the masse had place if not so wicked as it was after yet notwithstanding farre differing from the simplicitie of the supper which was left by our Sauiour Christ. And Eusebius is of more credite in this than Uolusianus which in the thirde booke and fourth chapter in the fourth booke and thre twentie chapter sayth of the report of Dionysius bishop of orinth That S. Paule ade Dionysius Arcopagita (*) A notable 〈◊〉 byshop of Athens he sayth not Archbis op but Bishop although he spake twi e of it in the preface before his workes it is sayd that after his conuersion he went to Rome to Clement and was sent with others of Clement into the weste partes and that he came to Paris and was there executed whether soeuer of these opinions is true that falleth which Uolusianus affirmeth And if eyther Uolus anus or you will haue vs beleeue that Dionysius Areopagita was Archbyshop of Athens you must shewe some better authoritie than Eusebius or Dionysius byshop of orinth and then your cause shall haue at the least some more colour of truth Io. Whitgifte Thus indéede may you easily wype away all authoritie of Histories and Fathers But this shifte will not serue your turne with wyse and learned men Uolusianus was very well learned and a very godly Bishop in his tyme neyther is it to be thoughte that he woulde wryte any thing in suche a matter whiche he had not certaynely learned of worthy wryters Your reason broughte out of Eusebius to proue the contrarie fayleth in two respectes First bicause it is negatiue from authoritie and that of man For thus you conclude Eusebius did not call him Archbishop Ergo he was no Archebishop whiche kinde of argument is neuer good in any respecte when it is taken from the authoritie of man Secondly your argument fayleth bicause Histories be not so curious in cal ing men by their seuerall titles They thinke it sufficient if they vse the common and moste vsuall name eu n as it is the common vse amongest vs to call the Archbishops of Canterbury and Yorke oftener by the names of Bishops of Canterbury and Yorke than by the names of Archbishops So that in déede your argument béeing denied you are not able by any sounde reason to confirme it If Eusebius or Dionisius had denied him to be an Archbishop your argument had bin good Chap. 2. the. 10. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 65. Sect. 3. Erasmus in his argument of the Epistle to Titus saythe that Paule made Titus Archebishop of Creta but Antichrist was not in Paules time Ergo the name of an Archbishop was not inuented by Antichrist T. C. Pag. 69. Sect. 1. Erasmus followeth which sayth Titus was Archbishop of Crete whom I could answere with his owne words For I am sure he will graunt me that Titus and Timothie had one office the one in Ephesus y e other in Crete but it appeareth by Erasmus his own words that Timothie was but a Bishop of Ephesus therfore Titus was but Bishop of Crete (a) A slender proofe For Eras us in his argument vpon the first Epistle of Timothie sayth that S. Paule did informe Timothie of the office of a Bishop and of the discipline of the Churche If eyther he had bin an archebishop or an Archbishop had bin so necessarie as it is made he woulde haue instructed him in that also Io. Whitgifte This maketh wholly agaynst your selfe for héereby it appeareth that the wryters vse not any greate curiositie in obseruing proper titles but they thinke it sufficient if that name of office be vsed that comprehendeth all Where dothe Erasmus saye that Timothie was but a Bishop Will you not learne to deale playnely But let vs heare your argument Erasmus sayth that S. Paule dyd informe Timothie of the office of a Bishop and of the discipline of the Churche Ergo Erasmus sayth that Timothie was no Archbishop Undoubtedly you had néede beare with other mens vnskilfulnesse in Logike if you vse suche reasons in good earnest This argument also is negatiue ab bumana authoritate Whatsoeuer is necessarie for a Bishop is necessarie for The differēce betwixte an Archbishop a Bishop an Archebishop and the office of a Bishop is the office of an Archebishop There is no difference of Bishop and Archebishop but onely this that the Archebishop hathe authoritie ouer other Bishops to call them togither when occasion serueth to sée that they walke according to the lawes and rules prescribed to kéepe vnitie and concorde in the Churche and suche lyke There is no difference quantum ad ministerium in respecte of their ministerie and function but onely quoad politiam ordinem in respect of pollicie and order as I haue sayde before Chap. 2. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 69. Sect. 2. And I pray you tell me whether Erasmus or the greeke Scoliaste be more to be beleeued in this poynt out of whome is taken that which is in the latter ende of the Epistles to Timothie and Titus where they bothe are called the first elected Bishops that euer were eyther of Ephesus or Creta for my parte I thinke they were neyther Bishops nor Archbishops but (*) This is often promised but neuer per ormed Euangelists as shall appeare afterwards But it may be sufficient to haue set agaynst Erasmus authoritie the authoritie of the Scholiast And heere if you will cauill and say that the Scholiast which sayth he was Bishop denieth not but that he also was an Archbishop bicause an Archbishop is a Bishop it may be answered easily that the Scholiast did not speake nor write so vnproperly as to cal them by the generall name of Bishop whome he might as easily haue called if the truthe woulde haue let him by a more proper and particular name of Archbishop And further in (a) This diuision is not so strange as you make it this diuision of the ministers the Archbishop and the Bishop are members of one diuision and therefore one of them can not be affirmed and sayde of an other for that were contrarie to the nature of a true diuision Io. Whitgifte I tell you that Erasmus and the grecke Scholiaste doe very well agrée and the one dothe expounde the other I tell you also that your negatiue argumentes are not worthe a rushe vse them as ofte as you liste What you thinke of Thimothie or Titus béeing Archebishops or Bishops is not materiall but of what force your reasons are shall be considered when you vtter them If Erasmus and the Gréeke Scholiaste were of diuers iudgements in this poynte as they be not yet were it an vnlearned answere to set the
to shewe that in citing him in this manner and forme that I doe I doe no otherwyse than other godly and learned men haue done You shal vnderstande ere I come to an ende that I haue not alleadged him for any néede Your argument to proue that Iames was no Archebishop bicause Eusebius and other doe call him Bishop and not Archebishop is of the same nature that your other arguments be that is ab authoritate negatiuè and therefore must be sent away with the same answere Whether the Apostles placed Iames and Simeon at Ierusalem or no is not the question But you are something deceyued in your quotation for you should in the place of the. 22. chapter of Eusebius haue noted the. 11. chapter The place of Ireneus thoughe it make not agaynst any thing that I haue spoken if it were as you doe alleage it yet muste I tell you that it is by you not truely vnderstoode For Ireneu dothe not saye that the Apostles dyd togither in euery place Irenaeu appoynte Bishops but he sayth Secundum successiones Episcoporum quibus illi eam quae in vnoqueque loco est ecclesiam tradiderunt According to the succession of Bishops to whome they committed the Churche that was in euery place Meaning that euery one of the Apostles dyd appoynt Bishops in those Churches whiche they had planted as S. Paule did at Ephesus and Creta And notwithstanding that in some Churches the Apostles togither dyd place Bishops yet that in other Churches whiche they planted Sometime one Apostle did appoynt Bishops Tertulli de praescript they dyd the same seuerally it is manyfest not onely by these examples of Timothie and Titus but of sundry other whereof we maye reade in ecclesiasticall histories and namely of * Policarpus made Bishop of Smirna by S. Iohn And you your selfe testifie the same of S. Iohn out of Eusebius euen in the nexte section Moreouer it can not be gathered eyther out of the wordes of Ireneus or any other ecclesiasticall historie that the Apostles dyd place Bishops any where but in the chiefe and principall Townes and Cities committing vnto them the gouernment of other Uillages and Townes and the appoynting of seuerall Pastors for them as it is also euident in the foresayde examples of Timothie and Titus and the wordes of Ireneus importe the same But if they had in euery Hamlet placed Pastors yet dothe it not followe but that there mighte be some one in a Dioces or Prouince by whome these Pastors shoulde be directed As Timothie at Ephesus Titus at Crete Chap. 2. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag. 69. Sect. vlt. And heere you put me in remembrance of an other argument agaynst the Archbishop which I will frame after this sorte (a) The maior false If there should be any Archbishop in any place the same shoulde be eyther in respect of the person or minister and his excellencie or in respect of the magnificence of the place but the most excellent ministers that euer were in the most famous places were no Archebishops but Bishops onely therefore there is no cause why there shoulde be any Archebishop For if there were euer minister of a congregation worthy that was Iames. If there were euer any Citie that ought to haue this honor as that the minister of it shoulde haue a more honorable title than the ministers of other cities and townes that was Ierusalem where the sonne of God preached and from whence the Gospell issued out into all places And afterwarde that Ierusalem decayed and the Churche there Antioche was a place where the notablest men were that euer haue bin since whiche also deserued great honour for that there the Disciples were first called Christians but neyther was that called the first and chiefest Churche neyther the ministers of it called the Arche or principall Bishops Io. Whitgifte It is a straunge matter that you should so grossely erre in making arguments séeing you haue taken vpon you so great skill in that Arte. But I will not be occupied in examining the forme of it Your maior is not true for suche offices maye be appoynted rather in the respecte of the time and of the persons that are to be gouerned Why these offices are appoynted than of the worthynesse of the minister or the dignitie of the plate and therefore your maior doth not conteyne a perfect and sufficient distribution Agayne the worthinesse of the person and the dignitie of the place be not at all the causes why suche offices shoulde be appoynted in the Churche but the suppression of sectes the peace of the Churche and the good gouernment of the same The worthinesse of the person may make him méete for suche an office and the place may be conuenient for suche officers to remayne in but neyther of them bothe can be a sufficient cause why suche offices should be appoynted I knowe the worthiest cities haue had the preheminence in suche matters but it was bicause they were the most méetest places for that purpose and the place dothe onely adde one péece of title to the office but it is not the cause of the office Lastly you haue not yet proued that there was no Archbishops in those places or that Iames had not that office Chap. 2. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Page 70. Lin. 9. This is contrar to that whiche was immediatly affirmed before And Eusebius to declare that this order was firme and durable sheweth in the thirde booke 13. chapter that Sainct Iohn the Apostle whiche ouerliued the residue of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in euery Citie Io. Whitgifte This is no reason at all S. Iohn ordeyned Bishops in euery Churche therfore there was no one Bishop superiour vnto them to gouerne and directe them in matters of The office of an archbishop in S. Iohn discipline order a d doctrine if occasion serued I thinke that S. Iohn him selfe was directer and gouernour of them all and in effecte their Archebishop And that dothe manifestly appeare in that thirde booke and. 23. chapter of Eusebius For thus he sayth In those dayes Iohn the Apostle and Euangelist whome the Lorde loued lyued Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 2 ▪ as yet in Asia whiche did gouerne the Churches there after he was returned out of the Isle from banishement after the death of Domitian And a little after he saythe That he went beeing desired ad vicina Gentium loca vt partim constitueret Episcopos partim tota ecclesias componeret partim clerum ex his quos spiritus sanctus iudicasset sorte deligeret Vnto the places of the Gentiles adioyning partly that he mighte appoynte Bishops partly that he might establishe whole Churches partly that he mighte by lotte choose suche into the Cleargie as the holy Ghost shoulde assygne So that whether he had the name of Archbishop or no certayne it is that he had the gouernment and direction of the rest and that he appoynted Bishops and other Ministers Eusebius dothe
be obserued c. And M. Foxe tom 1. Pag. 12. reporting these two Canons sayth thus First in the Councell of M. Foxe Nice which was the yeare of our Lorde 340. and in the sixt Canon of the sayde Councell we finde it is so decreed that in euery Prouince or Precinct some one Church Byshop of the same was appoynted set vp to haue the inspection regiment of other Churches about him Secundum morem antiquum that is after the auncient custome as the wordes of the Councell do purport So that the Byshop of Alexandria shoulde haue power of Libia and Pentapolis in Egipt for as much as the Byshop of the Citie of Rome hath the like or same manner Nowe if I might as safely alleage the Canons of the Apostles as you doe then coulde I tell you that in the. 33. Canon which Canon is alleaged as good authoritie against the supremacie of the Byshop of Rome you shall finde Archbyshops For that Canon setting an order among Bishops willeth the Byshops of euery nation to knowe their first or chiefe Byshop and him to be taken for the head of them The wordes of the Canon be these Cuiusque gentis Episcopos oportet sc re quisnam Cano. Apo. 33. alias 35. inter ipsos primus sit habereque ipsum quodammodo pro capite neque sine illius voluntate quicquam agere insolitum The Bishops of euery countrie must knowe who is chiefe among them and must take him as it were for their head neyther muste they doe any vnaccustomed thing without his will and euery one must doe those things alone by him selfe which belong to his parishe and to the places that be vnder him But neither must he do any thing without the will of all them for so shall concorde be kept and God shall be glorified through our Lord in the holy Ghost Now I pray you tell me what difference there is betwixt the first or chiefe Byshop or head of the reste and Archbyshop And least you shoulde thinke this Canon to be of small force as suspected you shall heare it almost verbatim repeated and confirmed by the Councell of Antioche In euery countrey it is conuenient that Concil Antioc Can. 9. the Byshops should knowe that their Metropolitane Byshop beareth the care of the whole Prouince VVherefore let all those that haue any businesse repaire to the Metropolitane citie And for this cause it is thought good that he both shoulde excell in honour and that the other Bishops do no vnaccustomed thing without him according to the auncient rule appointed of our fathers sauing those things onely which belong to their owne Diocesse and to the places that are vnder them For euery Byshop hath power ouer his owne parishe to rule them according to reuerence meete for euerye one and to prouide for all the countrey that are vnder his citie so that he ordeyne both Priests and Deacons and conteine all things with his iudgement But further let him attempt nothing without the Metropolitane neither let the Metropolitane do any thing without the aduise of the other You haue now the Canon of the Apostles confirming Archbyshops and the Councell of Nyce Antioche alleaging olde custome for them and confirming them also And a little before In the. 7. Diuision before I declared vnto you out of M. Foxe that there were Archbyshops here in England Anno. 180. So that their fall cannot be very great Chap. 2. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 3. What no mention of him in Theophilus Bishop of Antioche none in Ignatius none in Clemens Alexandrinus none in Iustine Martyr in Ireneus in Tertullian in Origine in Cyprian none in all those olde Historiographers oute of the which Eusebius gathereth his storie was it for his basenesse and smalnesse that he coulde not be seene among the Byshops Elders and Deacons beyng the chiefe and principall of them all Can the Cedar of Libanon be hyd among y e Boxe trees Aristotle in his Rhethoricke ad Theodecten sayth that it is a token of contempt to forget the name of an other Belike therefore if there were any Archbyshop he had no chaire in the Churche but was as it seemeth digging at the metalles for otherwyse they that haue filled their booke with the often mentioning of Byshops would haue no doubt remembred him Io. Whitgifte And what then is not the Councell of Nice and of Antioche of as good credite as all these Shall not Athanasius Epiphanius Ambrose Hierome Chrysostome Sozomene c. counteruaile them and yet if you had read these authors you might haue learned that in the most of them the office of an Archbyshop is expressed as my answere following declareth But still you vse negatiue reasons ab authoritate and that humane Your tauntes and frumpes I let passe they are confutation sufficient to them selues Chap. 2. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Page 70. Sect. 3. 4. But let vs heare what the Councell of Nyce hath for these titles In the sixth Canon mention is made of a Metropolitane Byshop what is that to the Metropolitane which nowe is eyther to the name or to the office Of the office it shall appeare afterwardes In the name I thinke there is a great difference betwene a Metropolitane Byshop and Metropolitane of England or of all England A Metropolitane Byshop was nothing else but a Byshop of that place which it pleased the Emperor or Magistrate to make the chiefe citie of the Diocesse or shire aad as for this name (*) An vntruth contrarie to the manifest wordes of the Councell of Nice it maketh no more difference betwene Byshop and Byshop than when I say a Minister of London and a Minister of Nuington There is no man that is well aduised which will gather of this saying that there is as great difference in preheminence betwene those two Ministers as is betwene London and Nuington For his office and preheminence we shall see hereafter Io. Whitgifte For the full answering of this it shall be sufficient to set downe the iudgement of certaine of the learned writers of our time touching the true meaning of that Canon The iudgement of learned writers of the. 6. can con N cem Caluine of the Councell of Nyce as the practise of the Church before that time at that tyme and since that time haue expounded it M. Caluine in his Institutions Chap. 8. Sect 54. sayth thus That euery prouince had among their Byshops an Archbyshop And that the Councel of Nice did appoynt Patriarkes which should be in order and dignitie aboue Archbyshops it was for the preseruation of discipline M. Caluine sayth the Councell of Nyce did appoint Patriarkes which shoulde be in order and dignitie aboue Archbyshops He sayth also that euery Prouince had among their Byshops an Archbyshop Il yricus in his cataloge testium veritatis speaking of this Councel sayth thus Constituit Illyricus quoque haec Synodus vt singularum
the vnitie of the Church is conserued not by hauing one Bishop ouer all but by the agreement of the Bishops one with another For so he writeth that the church is knit and coupled togither as it were with the giue of the Bishops consenting one with an other And as for the compounding of controuersies it is manyfest that it was not done by one Byshop in a prouince but those byshops whych were neere the place where the schisme or heresie sprang For speaking of the appeasing of controuersies schismes and shewing how dyuers Bishops Li. 1. epi. 4 were drawen into the heresy of Nouatus he sayth that the vertue and strength of the Christians was not so decayed or anguished but that there was a portion of Priests which did not giue place vnto those rumes and shipwrackes of fayth And in another place he sayth therfore most deare brother the plentyfull body or company Li. 3. epi. 1 of the pr ests are as it were with the g ue of mutuall concorde and bande of vnitie ioyned togither that if any of our company be author of an heresy and goe about to destroy and rent the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable and mercyfull shepheards gather togither the sheepe of the Lorde Whereby it is many fest that the appeasing and composing of controuersies and heresies was not then thought to be most fitte to be in one bishops hande but in as many as coulde conuemently assemble togither according to the daunger of the heresie which sprang or depe roote which it had taken or was like to take Io. Whitgifte The Bishops agrée not one whit the worse when they haue a superior by whom they may be called togither and put in minde of their office and duetie Neyther doth Cyprian deny this when he affirmeth the other For thoughe the chiefe cause of vnitie is the consente and agreement of the Bishops one with another yet to haue one that shall haue the chiefe care thereof must néedes be a great helpe thervnto euen as it is in other societies For if the Bishops were deuided among themselues at variance and had no superiour who should compounde the controuersies Our Archbishops doe not take vpon them neyther can they to decide any controuersie Howe farre our Archbishops deale in controuersies in doctrine and religion of their owne authoritie but therein doe they deale eyther according to the lawes of the Churche prouided for that purpose or else expecte a newe Parliament or Synode Neyther doth any Bishop in his Dioces otherwise meddle in suche matters than by the common consent of the Churche is appoynted vnto him and yet it was neuer otherwise taught by any but that a Bishop in hys owne Diocesse or an Archebishop in his Prouince mighte vse persuasions to ende controuersies and execute the lawes prouided for the same other kinde of deciding controuersies by any priuate authoritie I knowe none in this Church of Englande Wherfore al these allegations be but in vayne for surely not in Cyprians time was the determining of suche controuersies committed to the Pastor and Seigniorie of euery Parishe neyther doth Cyprian make mention of any suche matter if he did yet for gouernment the diuersitie of the time and state of the Church is to be considered Tract 2. 3. as I haue before noted Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 77. Sect. 4. And that there was in his time no such authoritie giuen as that any one might remoue the causes or controuersies which rose as now we see there is when the Bishop of the Di es taketh the matters in controuersie which rise in any Church within his Dioces from the minister Elders to whom the decision perteyneth and as when the archebishop taketh it away from the Bishop it may appeare in the same thirde Epistle of the first booke where he sayth after this sort It is ordeyned and it is equall and right that euery mans cause should be there heard where the fault was committed And a little after he sayth It is meete to handle the matter there where they maye haue both accusers and witnesses of the faulte whiche although it be spoken of them whiche fled out of Affrike vnto Rome yet the reason is generall and dothe aswell serue agaynst these ecclesiasticall persons whych wyll take vnto them the deciding of those controuersies that were done a hundred myle of them Io. Whitgifte Cyprian as I sayd speaketh not one worde of your Seigniorie in that place by you alleages he speaketh of the seueral Prouince ▪ 〈◊〉 Dioces of euery bishop would haue euery matter ended in that Prouince 〈◊〉 Diocesse where it is cōmitted therfore he speaketh there of suche as fled out of Affrica into Italie to haue their matters heard so that this place is soluted by your owne selfe It is méete that the matter should be there handled where there may be had bothe accusers witnesses And that was one of the reasons that the Councel of Affrica sed agaynst the Bishop of Rome clayming interest in hearing appeales from thence But there is no Prouince in Englande so large but that both the accusers and witnesses may be brought into any parte of it from any other parte This reason of yours maye serue better agaynst Westminster hall which is but one place to serue the whole Realme for deciding of controuersies and yet I thinke it very necessarie ▪ You may not wrest that to your purpose or proof of Seigniorie or authoritie therof whiche Cyprian speaketh of diuers Prouinces yea diuers Countreys and Nations This is no good reason Cyprian mislyked the translating of causes from Affrica to Rome Ergo there maye be no causes remoued from Northampton to London Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 77. Sect. 5. And whereas M. Doctor in bothe places of Cyprian seemeth to stande much vpon the words one Bishop and priest the reason thereof dothe appeare in another place of Cyprian moste manyfestly L 3. epi. 13 and that it maketh no more to proue that there ought to be one archebishop ouer a whole prouince than to say that there ought to be but one husbande proueth that therefore there should be but one husbande in euery countrey or prouince whiche shoulde see that all the rest of the husbands do their duties to their wiues For this was the case a Nouatian heretike beeing condemned cast out of the Churches of Affrica by the consent of the Bishops not able by embassage sent to them to obteyne to be receyued to their cōmunion fellowship agayne oeth afterwards to Rome and beeing likewise there repelled in time getteth himselfe by certayne which fauoured his heresie to be chosen Bishop there at Rome Cornelius beeing the Bishop or pastor of those which were there godly minded whervpon it commeth that Cyprian vrgeth one Bishop one priest in the church bicause at Rome there was two wherof one was a wolfe
not mentioned in the scriptures but also manifestly oppugned it is to bold hard a speech that I say no more to et the petegree of the Archbishop from the Apostles times and from the Apostles themselues Io. Whitgifte I must answere you still as Zuinglius answered the Anabaptists in the like obiection and as I haue answered you before the Papists make their traditions necessarie vnto saluation and therefore they are to be reiected bicause the worde of God conteyneth all things necessarie to saluation I make those offices part of decencie order Ecclesiasticall gouernment and pollicie whiche admitteth alteration as the tymes and persons require and are not particularly expressed in the Scriptures no more than diuerse other things be in the same kinde as I haue prooued before And that this may séeme no straunge matter or any thing fauouring the Papists vnwritten verities you may call to remembrance that which M. Caluin sayth of such traditions Caluine vpon these wordes 1. Cor. 11. Quemadmodum tradidi vobis instituta tenetis I do not denie sayth he but that there were some traditions of the Apostles not written c. as I Tract 2. haue before recyted speaking of Ceremonies not expressed in the worde And you may sée that wise and learned men are not so scrupulous in Apostolicall traditions not written so that they be not such as are made necessarie vnto saluation neyther is any learned man of contrarie iudgement And therefore Archbishops may well be brought from the Apostles tymes without any daunger of admitting the vnwritten verities of the Papists You haue not yet proued that eyther the name or office of Archbishoppes is in any respect oppugned in the worde of God and therefore that is but feyned Chap. 3. the. 27. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. But all this time M. doctor hath forgotten his question which was to proue an Archbishop whereas all these testimonies which he alledgeth make mention onely of a bishop therefore this may rather confirme the state of the bishop in this realme than the Archbishop But in the answere vnto them it shal appeare that as there is not in these places so much as the name of an Archbishop mentioned so except only the name of a Bishop there shall be founde very little agreement betwene the Bishops in those dayes and those which are called Bishops in our time and with vs. Io. Whitgifte M. Doctor remembreth that the Authours of the Admonition aswell denie the office of a Bishop as the office of an Archbishop and hée is not ignorant that the proofe of the one is the confirmation of the other and therefore he vseth suche testimonies as perteyne to them both of the whiche nature those places be that he hath hitherto alledged For you muste vnderstande that I spake before of the name and nowe according to my promise I speake of the office whiche is not so farre distant from the Bishops but that in moste things they be confounded But let vs nowe heare how you performe your promise Chap. 3. the. 28. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 2. And consequently although M. doctor thought with one whiting boxe to haue whited two walles by establishing our Archbishop and Bishop by the same testimonies of the fathers yet it shall be plaine that in going about to defend both he left both vndefended Io. Whitgifte Wordes of pleasure too too vsuall with T. C. but of smal weight God be thanked and of lesse truth Chap. 3. the. 29. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 2. 3. Let vs therfore come first to examine Ieromes reasons why one must be ouer the rest for in the testimonie of men that is onely to be regarded which is spoken either with some authoritie of the scripture or with some reason grounded of the scripture otherwise if he speak without either scripture or reason he is as asily reiected as alleaged One sayth he being chosen to be ouer the rest bringeth remedie vnto schismes how so least euery man sayth he drawing to himselfe do breake the Church in pieces But I would aske if the Church be not in as great daunger (*) Here you cōfound a monarchie and a tyrannie when all is done at the pleasure and iust of one man and when one carieth all into error as when one pulleth one piece with him an other another piece the third his part also with him And it is (a) Not so if tha one do gouerne by lawe harder to draw many into an error than one or that many should be caried away by their affections than one which is euident (b) Your similitudes hold not in water which if it be but a little it is quickly troubled and corrupted but beeing much it is not so easily But by this ecclesiasticall Monarchie all things are kept in peace Nay rather it hath bene the (c) Vntruth cause of discorde and well spring of most horrible schisme as it is to be seene in the very decretals Decret par 2. c. 9. q. 3. can Apost 33. alibi passim themselues (d) A good tor for contentio And admit it were so yet the peace which is without truth is more execrable than a thousande contentions For as by stryking of two flintes togither there commeth out fyre so it may be that sometymes by contention the truth which is hidden in a darke peace maye come to light which by a peace in naughtinesse and wickednesse being as it were buryed vnder the ground doth not appeare Io. Whitgifte Ierome being a man of such singular learning and great credite among those that be learned in a matter of Hystorie as this for hée reporteth when one Byshop was T. C. descredueth the author whom he cannot answe e. placed ouer the rest and for what cause is more to be beléeued withoute reasons than you with all your popular and friuolous arguments Let the reader againe consider whether this be your maner or no by vaine reasons to shake the credite of the authour when you cannot otherwise answere The reasons that you vse for the popular or Aristocraticall gouernment of the Church when they come among the people will be easily transferred to the state of the common weale and peraduenture bréede that misliking of ciuill gouernment that you would now haue of Ecclesiasticall to a further inconuenience and mischiefe than you and all yours will be able to remedie In the meane time you vtterly ouerthrow T. C. ouer he 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 ecclesiasti all the Quéenes authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters giuen vnto hir by the lawes of God as hereafter shall be proued For if the state must eyther be popular or Aristocraticall then must there be no one supreme gouerner in Church matters but I wil come to your reasons First you aske whether the Churche be not in as great daunger when all is done at the pleasure and lust of one man and when one carieth all
into errour c. Here you do eyther ignorantly Difference betwixt a king and a tyrant or wilfully confounde Monarchiam with tyrannie For betwixt a king and a tyrant this is one difference that a king ruleth according to the lawes that are prescribed for him to rule by and according to equitie and reason a tyrant doth what him list followeth his owne affections contemneth lawes and sayth Sic volo sic iubeo stat pro ratione voluntas So I will so I commaund my pleasure standeth for reason Now therefore to vse those reasons to ouerthrow a lawful Monarchie which are onely proper to wicked tyrannie is eyther closely to accuse the gouernment of this Church of England of tyrannie or maliciously by subtile dealing and confounding of states to procure the The ecclesiasticall gouernment in this Church not tyrannicall but lawfull misliking of the same in the hearts of the subiects There is neyther Prince nor Prelate in this land that ruleth after their pleasure and lust but according to those lawes and orders that are appointed by the common consent of the whole realme in Parliament and by such lawes of this Monarchie as neuer hitherto any good subiect hath mislyked and therefore your grounde being false how can the rest of your building stand It hath bene sayd before that the Archbishop hath not this absolute authoritie giuen vnto him to doe all things alone or as him lust He is by lawe prescribed both what to doe and howe to procéede in his dooings Moreouer this Churche of Englande Gods name bée praysed therefore hath all poyntes of necessarie doctrine certainly determined Ceremonies and orders e presly prescribed from the whiche neyther Archbyshoppe nor Byshoppe maye swarue and according to the whiche they must bée directed to the obseruing of the whiche also their dutie is to constreyne all those that ée vnder them So that whosoeuer shall wilfully and s ubburnely seuer himselfe from obedience eyther to Archbyshoppe or Bishoppe in suche matters may iustly be called a Schismatike or a disturber of the Church And in this respect is that saying of Cyprian nowe most true For neyther doo Heresyes Li Epist. 3. aryse nor Schismes spring of any other thing but hereof that the Priest of God is not obeyed And so is this of Ieromes in like maner Ecclesiae salus in summi Sacerdotis pendet Contra Luciscrianos dignitate cui si non exors ab omnibus eminens detur potestas tot in Ecclesia efficiuntur schismata quot sacerdotes The safetie of the Churche dependeth vppon the dignitie of the highe Priest to whom vnlesse a singuler and peerelesse power be giuen there will be as manie schismes in the Church as there be Priests You say that it is harder to draw many into an error than one c. whiche is not true The gouernment of one by lawe more safe than of many without lawe when that one ruleth and gouerneth by lawe For the minde of man euen of the best may be ouerruled by affection but so cannot the lawe Wherefore a wicked man directed by lawe gouerneth more indifferently than multitudes withoute lawe bée they neuer so godly Moreouer one Godly wise and learned man is muche more hardly moued to any errour than is the multitude whiche naturally is prone and bent to the same in whome not onely Philosophers but singular Diuines also haue noted great inconstancie and a disposition moste vnméet to gouerne The s ilitude of water returned agaynst the Replier Your similitude of water holdeth not for a little water in a grauelly or stonie Well or Ryuer is not so soone troubled and corrupted as are multitudes of waters in Fennishe and Marrishe groundes Againe a little water in a running Ryuer or Fourde is at all tymes more pure and cleare than is a great quantitie in standing Puddelles to bée short is not the water of those little springs and Cundite heades which béeing safely locked vp and inclosed in stone and Leade do minister greate reléefe to whole Cities muche more pleasaunt hardlyer corrupted lesse troubled than the great waters in the Thames Therefore is a little water procéeding from a good Fountaine by stones and Leade kept from things that may hurt it hardlier putrifyed and corrupted than all the Fennishe waters in a whole Countrey than mightie Pooles yea than the Thames it selfe So is one wise and prudent man gouerned and directed by order and by lawe further from corruption and errour in gouernement than whole multitudes of people of what sorte soeuer they bée You further say that this Ecclesiasticall monarchie hath beene the cause of discorde c. I aunswere that it hath béene the cause of the contrarie vntill suche tyme as it was turned into tyrannie as by all Ecclesiasticall storyes and wryters it may appeare and namely by these two Cyprian and Ierome In all that decretall part 2. c. 9. quaest 3. noted in your Margent there is nothing The places c ed by T. C maketh for the Archbishop agaynste any forme of gouernment vsed by the Archbyshoppe in this Churche of Englande but in plaine and manifest wordes bothe the name and office of the Archebishoppe is there mainteyned and approoued And I wishe that the learned Reader woulde peruse ouer all that parte of Gratian then shoulde he easily perceyue your faythfulnesse in alledging Authorities And thoughe it be somewhat tedious yet that the vnlearned also may haue some taste of your dealing I will sette downe some Canons conteyned in that parte of Gratian. Out of the Councell of Pope Martine hée cyteth this Canon Per singulas prouincias oportet Episcopos cognoscere c. In euerie Prouince the Bishoppes must knowe theyr Metropolitane to haue the cheefe authoritie and that they ought to doe nothing withoute him according to the olde and auncient Canons of oure forefathers for the whiche cause also the Metropolitane muste take vppon him nothing presumptuously without the councell of other Bishoppes And out of the councell of Antioch he hath this Per singulas prouincias Episcopos singulos scire oportet c. In euery prouince the Bishops must know their Metropolitane which gouerneth to haue the chiefe care of the whole prouince and therefore those that haue any causes must resort to the Metropolitane citie c. In all the rest of the Canons he manifestly attributeth superioritie and gouernment to the Archbishop and Metropolitane euen the same that we do in this Church only he denieth that the Metropolitane or Archbyshop hath such absolute authoritie that he can deale any thing in criminall causes agaynst a Byshop or in other common matters without the consent of other Bishops which is not agaynst any thing by me affirmed or contrary to any authoritie claymed by the Archbishop for it hath bene from the beginning denied that the Archbishop of his own absolute authoritie can determine any thing in matters doubtfull and not determined by the lawes and orders of this
them to this order the farther of they were from those tunes vntill the discouering of the sonne of perdition the further off were they from this moderation and the nearet they came to that tyrannie and ambitious power whiche oppressed and ouerlayed the Churche of God Io. Whitgifte Indéede this is one parte of the office of the Archbyshop and Byshop but not the whole no more than it was of Iames being Byshop of Ierusalem nor of him whome Iustine calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But your chéefe purpose now is to proue that this office is not perpetuall but changeable at euery action and durable only continuing that action which how soundly you haue done and with what straunge argumentes euery childe that hath discretion may iudge Chap. 3. the. 50. Diuision T. C. Page 86. Sect. 1. And therefore M. Caluine doth warely say that one amongst the Apostles indefinitely not any one singular person as Peter had the moderation and rule of the other and further shadoweth out what rule that was by the example of the (*) The Archbyshop contenteth himselfe with lesse authori ie than the Co suls had Consull of Rome whose authoritie was to gather the Senate togyther and to tel of the matters which were to be handled to gather the voices to pronounce the sentence And although the Antichrist of Rome had peruerted all good order and taken all libertie of the Churche into his handes the Cardinals Archbyshops and Byshops yet there are some colde and light footings of it in our synods which are holden with the Parliament where amongst all the ministers which are assembled out of all the whole realme by the more part of voyces one is chosen whiche shoulde go before the rest propound the causes gather the voyces and be as it were the mouth of the whole company whome they terme the prolocutor Such great force hath the truth that in the vtter ruines of Poperie it could neuer be so pulled vp by the rootes that a man could neuer know the place thereof no more or that it should not leaue such markes and prints behind it whereby it might afterwardes recouer it selfe and come agayne to the knowledge of men Io. Whitgifte It followeth in the same place of M. Caluine immediatly Sic nihil absurdi esset Instit. cap. 8. si fateremur Apostolos detulisse Petro talem primatum Sed quod inter paucos valet non protenus trahendum est ad vniuersum o bem terrarum ad quem regendum nemo vnus sufficit So shoulde it be no absurditie if we shoulde confesse that the Apostles did giue this kynde of preheminence vnto Peter But yet that whiche auayleth among fewe must not by and by be drawen to the whole worlde to the ruling whereof no one man can suffice You sée therefore that M. Caluine speaketh of one singular person euen of Peter hym selfe and yet dothe he not slide into the tents of the Papistes but teacheth rather how to beware of them and yet to acknowledge the truthe of Peter We gyue no greater authoritie eyther to Archbyshop or Byshop than the The example of T. C. against himselfe Consuls and their authoritie Consull or Pretor had among the Romanes or a Master and president in a colledge for the Consuls vppon whose authoritie you séeme so muche to stay were appoynted to gouerne the common wealth of the Romanes after they had banished theyr kynges and they were called Consuls quia plurimum reipublicae consulebant bycause they profited the common wealth very muche whose authoritie in thys dyd differ from the authoritie of a king that there mighte be appeale from them and that they could not put to deathe any citizen of Rome withoute the consente of the people but they mighte otherwise punishe them and ast them into prison They had authorite also to make frée th se that were in bondage they were of the greatest honoure si nullus esset Dictat r if there were no Dictator in the common wealth and their authoritie was offorce not onely in the Senate but else where And it is manyfest that they had not onely authoritie to call the Senate to tell those matters that were to be handled and to take their voyces but to commaunde that none shoulde depart oute of the Citie that had anye v ycè in the Senate and to electe Senators c. It appeareth that you little knewe what the offyce of a Consull was when you wrytte thys If you take aduantage of thys that the office of the Consull was annuall and not perpetuall yet it helpeth not you anything for he was moderator and ruler not of one action onely but of so manye as were by occasion eyther ordinarie or extraordinarie in the whole yeare of ys Consulshyp For my part I doe not thinke that the Archbyshop either hath or ought to haue that authoritie in his prouince that the Consull had in Rome A Master of a Colledge the which example also Master Caluine doth vse hath a Masters of Colledges and their authoritie perpetuall offyce he is chiefe gouernour of that societie and all the members thereof owe duetie and obedience vnto him as to their head he hathe authoritie to puni he and to sée lawes executed neyther doe I thynke that eyther Archbyshop or Byshop claymeth greater authoritie and iurisdiction ouer theyr Prouinces and Diocesse than is due to the Master within hys Colledge And therfore those examples of Master Caluine do confute your assertion they doe in no poynt confirme it In Synodes thoughe there be chosen a prolocutor for the inferior sorte of the Cleargie yet dothe the Archbyshop reteyne still bothe hys office place and authoritie euen as the Prince dothe or the Lorde Kéeper notwythstanding it be permitted to the lower house of Parliament to choose them a Speaker and therefore this is nothyng nor alleaged to anye purpose excepte you wyll saye that in the ciuill state all was equall and that there was no superior but in eueryaction some chosen by the multitude to gouerne the action bycause in the lower house of Parliament they choose a Speaker whose offyce continueth but duryng that Parliament You passe not what you alleage so you maye séeme to alleage something Chap. 3. the. 51. Diuision T. C. Pag. 86. Sect. 2. Nowe you see what authoritie wee allowe amongst the Ministers bothe in theyr seuerall Churches or in prouinciall Synodes or nationall or generall or what so euer other meetings shall be aduised of for the profitte and edifying of the Churche and wythall you see that a we are farre from thys tyrannie and excessiue power whyche nowe is in the Churche so we are by the grace of God as farre from confusion and disorder wherein you trauell so muche to make vs to seeme guiltie Io. Whitgifte I sée you allowe muche more authoritie in wordes that is in the examples you haue vsed than you wyll willingly acknowledge I sée also that this authoritie whyche you call
foresayde Aërius he proueth his errour aud the errour of those that heare him by this that the Apostle writte to Priests and Deacons and dyd not write to Byshops And to the Bishop he sayth neglect not the gifte that is in thee whiche thou hast receyued by the handes of the Presbyterie And agayne in another place he writeth to Bishops and Deacons wherefore sayth he a Bishop and a Priest is all one and he knoweth not whiche is ignorante of the sequele of the truthe and hathe not read profounde stories that when the preaching was but newely begonne the holy Apostle writte according to the state of things as they were then for where there were Bishops appoynted he writte to Bishops and Deacons for the Apostle coulde not by and by at the first appoynte all things for there was neede of Priests and Deacons bicause by those two ecclesiasticall matters maye be complete And where there was not any founde worthy a Bishopricke there the place remayned without a Bishop but where there was neede and worthy men to be Bishops there were Bishops appoynted And when there was not so many that there coulde be founde amongst them meete to be Priests they were content with one Bishop in an appoynted place but it is vnpossible for a Bishop to be without a Deacon and the holy Apostle had a care that Deacons shoulde be where the Bishop was for the ministerie So dyd the Churche receyue the fulnesse of dispensation suche was then the state and condition of the places For euery thing had not the perfection from the beginning but in processe of time those things whiche were necessarie to perfection were added c. The Apostle teacheth who is a Bishop and who is a Priest when he sayth to Timothie that was a Bishop chide not a Priest but exhorte him as a father what should a Bishop haue to doe not to chide a Priest if he had not authoritie aboue a Priest As he also sayth agayne agaynst a Priest admitte no accusation sodenly without two or three witnesses and he sayde not to any Priest admit no accusation agaynst a Bishop neyther did he write to any Priest that he shoulde not rebuke a Bishop Thus mayest thou sée good Reader that it is not for nought that T. C. so stormes agaynst Epiphanius and so vnreuerently vseth him But I wyll giue him as muche cause to deale in like maner with Augustine who August ad Quod-vult in this matter fully ioyneth with Epiphanius and in that booke of his de haeresibus ad quod-vult-deum quoted by T. C. in his margent attributeth this also as heresie to the sayde Acrius adding that the cause of this and other of his heresies was bicause he himselfe was not made Bishop Chap. 3. the. 59. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 4. That this worde presbyter in this place of the Apostle signifieth a minister of the worde bothe Ambrose Caluine and other learned writers declare T. C. Page 87. Sect. 4. And whereas M. Doctor citeth Ambrose Caluine and other godly wryters to proue that the minister is vnderstanded by the worde Elder or Presbyter he keepeth his olde wonte by bringing stickes into the wood and prouing alwayes that which no man denieth and yet with the minister of the worde he also vnderstandeth the Elder of the Churche whiche ruleth and dothe not labour in the worde But therein is not the matter for I doe graunt that by Presbyter the minister of the word is vnderstanded yet nothing proued of that which M. Doctor would so fayne proue Io. Whitgifte I adde this interpretation that the Reader may vnderstande Timothie to haue authoritie ouer Bishops and Ministers of the worde least you by cauilling shoulde shifte off this place with your signification of Seniors whiche were not ministers of the worde as you say All this whyle haue I looked for the performance of your promise to proue that That Timothie was Bishop Timothie and Titus were no Bishops But bicause I perceyue that you are content to forget it I will héere perfourme mine least I fall into the same faulte with you repeating only that which I haue before added to my answere in the 2. edition least I shoulde put the Reader bothe to coste and paynes in searching for it there First therefore that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus the whole course of the 1 The course of the Epistle two Epistles written vnto him declareth wherein is conteyned the office and duety of a Bishop and diuers precepts peculiarly perteyning to that function as it is manyfest neyther were those Epistles written to Timothie for the instruction of other onely but for the instruction of him selfe also as the whole course of bothe the Epistles doe declare and all learned expositours confesse Secondly the subscription of the seconde Epistle is this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 The subscrip tion The seconde Epistle was written from Rome to Timothie who was ordeyned the first Bishop of the Churche of Ephesus when Paule appeared before the Emperour Nero the seconde time Whiche althoughe it be lefte out in some Gréeke Testamentes yet is it in the moste the best and the auncientest yea almoste in all neyther is this a sufficient answere to saye that the subscription of some one or two Epistles séeme to be vntrue therefore this is vntrue For the subscription as it is no doubt of great antiquitie so is it consonant to al olde auncient authoritie Thirdly the vniuersal consent of histories conclude him to be Bishop at Ephesus 3 Consent of hystories Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 4. saythe that Timothie was the first Bishop of Ephesus Dorotheus who lyued in Dioclesians time wryteth that Paule made him Bishop of Ephesus Nicephorus lib. 2. cap. 34. sayth that Paule made him Bishop of Ephesus before he writ his first Epistle vnto him Hierome in catalog scripto Ecclesi sayth that he was made Bishop of Ephesus by Paule Isidorus de Patribus noui Testamenti sayth also that he was Bishop of Ephesus Antoninus parte 1. titulo 6. cap. 1. affyrmeth the same oute of Polycrates So dothe Supplementum chroni So dothe also Volaterane lib. 20. where he calleth him Praesulem Ephesinum And all the Histories that I haue read whiche make any mention of him Historia Magdel centu 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. in vita Ioan. Euang. hathe these words Constat Paulum Ephesinae ecclesiae Timotheum dedisse pastorem It is certayne that Paule appoynted Timothie Pastor of the Churche of Ephesus Surely it is the generall consente of all hystories that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus Fourthly the fathers affirme the same 4 Content of fathers Dionisius Areopagita so called of some men who liued in the Apostles time wryteth his booke De diuinis nominibus to Timothie Bishop of Ephesus Epiphanius lib. 3. tom 1. affirmeth that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus Ambrose sayth the same in his Preface to the first Epistle written to Timothie Chrysostome in
authorem vniuersorum Dominum Episcopum autem vt Sacerdotum Principem imagi em Dei ferentem Dei quidem per Principatum Christi verò per Sacerdotium Honor God as the author and Lorde of all thinges and a Bishop as the chiefe of Priestes bearing the Image of God of God bicause of his superioritie of Christ by reason of his Priesthoode And a little after Let laye men be subiecte to Deacons Deacons to Priests and Priestes to Bishops the Bishop to Christ. And agayne Let no man doe any thing vvhiche perteyneth to the Churche vvithout the consente of the Bishop And agayn He that attēpteth to do any thing vvithout the Bishop breaketh peace and confoundeth good order The like saying he hath in his Epistle ad Magnesianos These three Epistles doth Eusebius make mention of Lib. 3. cap. 35. 36. and Hiero. de viris illustribus T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 4. It is no maruell although you take vp the authors of the Admonition for wante of Logike for you vtter great skill your selfe in writing whiche keepe no order but confounde your Reader in that thing which euen the common Logike of the countrey which is reason might haue directed you in for what a confusion of times is this to beginne with Cyprian and then come to Ierome and Chrysostome and after to the Scripture and backe agayne to Ignatius that was before Cyprian which tymes are ill disposed of you and that in a matter wherin it stoode you vpon to haue obserued the order of the tymes Io. Whitgifte Be patient a whyle the matter is not great the Authors be knowne and the The order ob serued in placing the authorities in y e answere antiquitie of them my mynde is of the matter and there is reason why I should thus place them Cyprian telleth the necessitie of suche superioritie and so dothe Chrysostome Hierome the cause and the originall Paule Timothie and Titus be examples hereof Ignatius and the rest are brought in as witnesses of the continuance of such offices and superioritie in the Churche euen from the Apostles Now first to proue the name of these offices not to be Antichristian then to shew the necessitie of the offices thirdly the cause and last of all to declare the vse of the same to haue bene in the Churche euen from S. Paules time to this houre is to kéepe a better order than you shall be able to disorder with all the Logike Rhetorike and hote Eloquence you haue Chap. 3. the. 61. Diuision T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 4. But as for Ignatius place it is sufficiently answered before in that which was answered to Cyprian his place for when he sayeth the Bishop hath rule ouer all he meaneth no more all in the prouince than in all the world but meaneth that flocke and congregation whereof he is Bishop or minister And when be calleth him Prince of the priests although the title be to excessiue and big condemned by Cyprian and the councel of Carthage yet he meaneth no more the prince of all in the diocesse as we take it or of the prouince than he meaneth the Prince of all the priestes in the world but he meaneth those fellow ministers and elders that had the rule and gouernment of that particular Church and congregation whereof he is a Bishop as the great churches haue for the most part both Elders which gouerne only and ministers also to ayde one an other and the principalitie that he which they called the Byshop had ouer the rest hath bene before at large declared Io. Whitgifte You very lightly shake of Ignatius wordes but they haue more pyth in them if it please you better to consider of them For he maketh degrées of ministers and the Bishop to be the chiefe he placeth Deacons vnder Priests and Priests vnder Bishops so that he giueth to the Bishop superioritie and gouernment ouer both Priests and Deacons which is the grounde of this cause and it being graunted as it muste néedes neyther can this authoritie of Ignatius be auoyded Aerius Heresie falleth and so doth your whole assertion What is ment by Prince of Priests Ignatius himselfe declareth saying Obtinens principatum potestatem supra omnes hauing chieftie and power ouer all How this name may be wel vsed I haue shewed before where I haue also declared the meaning of Cyprians woordes vttered in the hereticall Councell of Carthage and therefore not coumpted in the number of those Councels Chap. 3. the. 62. Diuision T. C. Pag. 88. Sect. 1. 2. But M. Doctor doth not remember that whylest he thus reasoneth for the authoritie of the Bishop he ouerthroweth his Archbyshop quite and cleane For Ignatius will haue none aboue the Bishop but Christ and he will haue an Archbishop I see a man cannot well serue two masters but eyther he must displease the one and please the other or by pleasing of one offend the other For M. Doctor would fayne please and vphold both and yet his proo es are such that euery proppe that he setteth vnder one is an axe to strike at the other Io. Whitgifte I remember it very well and I know that an Archbishop is a Bishop and that therfore there may be superioritie among Bishops and yet nothing detracted from the woordes of Ignatius I know likewise that as well the one as the other is cōdemned by you and I am well assured that the proofe of the one is the proofe of the other and therfore M. Doctor may well serue two masters but they be such as be not onely not contrary one to the other but so néerely linked and ioyned togither that what soeuer pleaseth the one doth also please the other M. Doctors proppes and proofes are such as M. T. C. is compelled to vse railing flouting in steade of answering which is a shift but how honest and Christian let the world iudge Chap. 3. the. 63. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 73. Sect. 1. Iustinus Martyr one of the most auncient writers of the Greekes Iustine Martyr in his second Apologie ad Antoninum Pium alloweth this superioritie calleth him that bare rule ouer the other ministers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 T. C. Pag. 88. Sect. 2. But that M. Doctor deliteth alwayes where he might fetch at the fountayne to be raking in ditches he needed not to haue gone to Iustine Martyr for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when as S. Paule calleth 1. Tim. 5 ▪ the ministers and Elders by this title And if this place of Iustine make for an Archbishop then in steade of an Archbishop in euery prouince we shall haue one in euery congregation For Iustine declareth there the leyturgie or manner of seruing God that was in euery church vsed of the Christians And I pray you let it be considered what is the office of that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 see whether there be any resemblance in the world betweene him and an Archbishop For he placeth his office to be in
error Theodorete therefore meaneth heresie he meaneth not hypocrisie there was not one heretike in all his Bishoprike he doth not say one hypocrite or euill man so that you are farre wyde and do Theodorete double iniurie for you do both slaunder him and misconstrue him Chap. 3. the. 68. Diuision T. C. Pag. 89. Sect. 3. Nowe that it may appeare what great likelihoode there is betwene this Theodoret and our Lorde Bishops and Archbishops it is to be considered which he writeth of himselfe in the Epistle vnto Leo that is that he hauing beene 26. yeares Bishop was knowne of all those that dwelt in those partes that he had neuer house of his owne nor fielde nor halfepenn e not so much as a place to be buryed in but had willingly contented himselfe with a poore estate be yke he had a verie leene Archbishoprike and if the fatte morsels of our Bishoprikes and Archbishoprikes were taken and employed to their vses of maintenance of the poore and of the Ministers and of the Uniuersities whiche are the seede of the ministerie I thinke the heate of the disputation and contention for Archbishops and Byshops woulde be well cooled Io. Whitgifte We speak of the office and authoritie not of the liuing to the spoile of the which Comparison made in office not in riches you and most of your fautors haue more respect than you haue to the office thoughe you pretende the contrarie and yet it followeth not but that Theodorete had lyuing sufficient and might haue béene more welthie but as it séemeth he professed voluntary pouertie of purpose for he gaue away that also whiche was left vnto him of his parents as he in that Epistle testifyeth saying Sed sponte electam amplexus sum paupertatem but I imbraced pouertie which I chose willingly His Bishoprike might be of large reuenues and yet he poore séeing that he had chosen and professed pouertie But if Bishops be better nowe prouided for than they were then it is their partes to be thankefull vnto God and the Prince for it and to vse it well It is not your dutie to enuie their prosperitie bicause you are not in case your selfe Chap. 3. the. 69. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 73. Sect. vlt. But what shall I neede to vse such proofes in a matter so plaine and euident to all such as haue read any thing of antiquitie The best learned men of our dayes and diligentest preferrers of the Gospell of Christ do with one consent one or two of the latest writers excepted acknowledge and confesse that this distinction of degrees and superioritie in the gouernment of the Church is a thing most conuenient and necessarie T. C. Pag. 89. Sect. 4. Now good reader thou hearest what M. Doctor hath beene able to ake togither out of the olde fathers which he sayth are so plaine in this matter and yet can shew nothing to the purpose Heare also what he sayth out of the writers of our age all which he sayth except one or two are of hys iudgement and allow well of this distinction of degrees Io. Whitgifte Well what I haue raked togither and howe you haue carted these rakings away I commit to the iudgement of the learned These raking termes in my opinion are not séemely in him that would séeme so much to iustifie himselfe and to condemne other of immodestie Chap. 3. the. 70. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 74. Sect. 1. Caluine in his Institutions sayth on this sort that euery prouince Caluin Cap. 8. Sect. 54. had among their Bishops an Archbishop and that the Councell of Nice did appoynt Patriarches vvhich should be in order and dignitie aboue Archbishops it vvas for the preseruation of discipline Therfore for this cause especially vvere those degrees appoynted that if any thing shoulde happen in any particular Church vvhich could not there be decided it might be remoued to a prouinciall Synode If the greatnesse or difficultie of the cause required greater consultation then vvas there added Patriarches togither with the Synodes from vvhom there vvas no appeale but vnto a general Coūcel ▪ This kind of gouernment some called Hierarchiam an improper name and not vsed in the scriptures for the spirit of God vvil not haue vs to dreame of dominion and rule in the gouernment of the Church But if omitting the name vve shall consider the thing it selfe vve shall finde that these olde Byshops did not frame any other kinde of gouernment in the Church frō that vvhich the Lorde hath prescribed in his vvorde Caluine here mislyketh this name Hierarchia but he alloweth the names and authoritie of Patriarches and Archbishops and thinketh the gouernment of the Church then vsed not to differ from that which God in his worde prescribeth T. C. Pag. 89. Sect. vlt. Pag. 90. Sect. 1. 2. M. Caluine first is cyted to proue those offices of Archbishop Primate Patriarch The names whereof he cannot abyde and as for him he approueth onely that there should be some which when difficult causes arise which cannot be ended in the particular Churches might referre the matters to Synodes and prouinciall Councelles and which might do the offices whiche I haue spoken of before of gathering voyces c. But that he liketh not of those dominations and large iurisdictions or at all of the Bishops or Archbishops which we haue nowe it may appeare plainly ynough both in that place when as he will haue his wordes drawen to no other than the olde Bishops shutting out thereby the Bishops that now are as also in other places and namely vpon the Philippians where reasoning agaynst Phil. 1. this distinction betwene Pastor and Bishop and shewing that giuing the name of Bishop to one man onely in a church was the occasion why he afterwarde vsurped do ination ouer the rest he sayth after this sort In deede I graunt sayth he as the dispositions and maners of men are order cannot stande amongst the ministers of the worde vnlesse one be ouer the rest I meane saith he of euerie seuerall and singular bodie not of a whole prouince much lesse of the whole worlde Now if you will needes haue M. Caluins Archbishop you must not haue him neither ouer a Prouince nor Diocesse but onely ouer one singular and particular congregation how much better therefore were it for you to seeke some other shelter agaynst the storme than M. Caluins which will not suffer you by any meanes to couer your selfe vnder his winges but thrusteth you out alwayes as soone as you enter vpon him forceably Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine affirmeth directly that euery prouince among their Bishops had Caluine acknowledgeth the names nd the end of thē and alloweth the kinde of gouernment an Archbishop and that the Councell of Nice did a ppoynt Patriarkes he sayeth that these degrées were appoynted for the preseruation of discipline and by calling of Synodes to ende controuersies that arise in particular Churches he well lyketh this
of this Churche of Englande Master Foxe In the ecclesiasticall estate vve take not avvay the distinction of ordinarie degrees suche as by the Scripture be appoynted or by the Primitiue Churche allovved as Patriarkes or Archebishops Bishops ministers and deacons for of these foure vve especially reade as chief in vvhich foure degrees as vvegraunt diuersitie of office so vve admit in the same also diuersitie of dignitie neyther denying that vvhich is due to eache degree neyther yet maynteyning the ambition of any singular person For as vve giue to the minister place aboue the Deacon to the Bishop aboue the minister to the Archbishop aboue the Bishop so vve see no cause of inequalitie vvhy one minister should be aboue another minister one Bishop in his degree aboue another Bishop to deale in his dioces or an Archbishop aboue an other Archbishop and this is to keepe an order duely and truely in the Church according to the true nature and definitiō of order by the authoritie of Augustine lib. de Ciui Ordo est parium dispariumque rerum sua cuique loca tribuens dispositio Hitherto M. Foxe Nowe let the indifferent Reader iudge whether these offices be straunge and vnheard of in the Church of Christ or no. T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. vlt. M. Doctor closeth vp this matter with M. Foxe but eyther for feare that the place shoulde be founde that there might be answere or for feare that M. Foxe shoulde giue me the solution which hath giuen you the obiecion he would neyther quote the place of the booke nor the booke it selfe he hauing written diuers You can not speake so muche good of M. Foxe whiche I wyll not wyllingly subscribe vnto and if it be any declaration of good wyll and of honor that one beareth to another to reade that which he writeth I thinke (*) I maruel 〈◊〉 place 〈◊〉 cape so 〈◊〉 a r ader I haue read more of him than you For I haue read ouer his booke of Martyrs and so I think dyd neuer you for if you had read so diligently in M. Foxe as you haue beene hasty to snatche at this place he woulde haue taughte Pag. 78. of the booke of Actes you the forgery of these Epistles whereout you fetche your authorities and woulde haue shewed you that the distinguishing of the orders of Metropolitanes Bishops and other degrees whiche you say sometimes had their beginnings in the Apostles tymes sometimes you can not tell when were not in Higinus tyme whyche was 180. yeares after Christe I (a) A suspicious head perceyue you feare M. Foxe is an enimie vnto your Archbishop and primate and therfore it seemeth you went about to corrupte him with his prayse and to seeke to drawe him if it were possible vnt the Archbishop and if not yet at the least that he would be no enimie if he woulde not nor coulde not be his friend You make me suspect that your prayse is not harty but pretended bicause you doe so often and so bitterly speake agaynst all those that wyll not receyue the cappe and surplesse and other ceremonies whereof M. Foxe declareth his great misliking For answere vnto the place bicause I remember it not nor meane not to reade ouer the whole booke to seeke it I say first as I sayde before that there may be somethyng before or after whych may giue the solution to this plac especially seeing M. Foxe in another place page 96. prouing the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfeyt he vseth this reason because the fyft canon of the sayd Epistles solemnly entreateth of the difference betweene Primates Metropolitanes and Archbishops which distinction sayth he of titles and degrees sauour more of ambition than persecution Moreouer I saye that M. Foxe wryting a storie dothe take greater payne and looketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what tyme and by whome than howe iustly or bniustly howe conueniently or inconueniently it is done Last of all if any thing be spoken there to the hinderance of the sinceritie of the Gospell I am well assured that M. Foxe whyche hathe traueled so muche and so profitably to that ende will not haue hys authoritie or name therein to bryng any preiudice Nowe wyll I also ioyne wyth you and leaue it to the iudgemente of the indifferent Reader howe well out of the Scriptures Councels wryters olde and newe you haue proued eyther the lawfulnesse at all of the names of Archbishops Patriarkes Archdeacons Primates or of the lawfulnesse of the office of them and of Bishops which be in our times Io. Whitgifte If you had so diligently read M. Foxe his booke of Martyrs as you boast and brag that you haue done then could not this place haue béene so straunge vnto you for it is in the 20. page of his first tome where he hath an whole treatise touching the supremacie of the Bishop of Rome and speaketh of this matter at large The words be his own and expresse his owne iudgement of these degrées offices in this Church of Englande It had béene some token of modestie so to haue commended your selfe and your owne reading that you had not depraued any other mans But to cōmend your selfe and to detract from an other is eyther arrogant foolishnesse or foolishs arrogancie I can bring foorth good testimonies of my reading of these bookes thoughe I make no vragge thereof or vayne comparisons I haue alleaged none of these Epistles other wyse than M. Foxe him selfe hathe alleaged them M. Foxe hathe shewed him selfe in the place by me cited out of his booke to be no 〈◊〉 eyther to Archbishop Priuate or Bishop for I am sure he speaketh as he thinketh He is not a man like to be corrupted with prayse and therefore in so saying you doe vs bothe great iniurie You may not iudge my heart I thinke of M. Foxe as of one that I loue and reuerence I will not vtter all that I could least I should séeme to flatter There is nothing that goeth eyther before that place or followeth after it that can procure any other sense to his wordes than that in the which I haue set them down I doe not alleage M. Foxe for the originall of these names and offices but for the allowance of them These words that I haue recited are not spoken in the waye of any hystorie but of the order of gouernment of this Church which he alloweth and I dare saye for him that he hathe héereinspoken nothing whiche he thinketh maye hurte the 〈◊〉 of the Gospell And I am right well content to let the godly Reader iudge of bothe our proofes ¶ The defense of the answere of Master Iewell concerning Archbishops c. agaynst the vnreuerende Replie of T. C. Chap. 4. the first Diuision T. C. Pag ▪ 91. Sect. 1. And for as much as I haue purposed to answere in one place that which is scattered in diuers I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 halfe a sheete of 〈◊〉 ▪ which is annexed of
may most conueniently come to that learning And we haue also examples of them commended vnto vs in the old Iud. 51. Testament As in the booke of the Iudges when Debora commendeth the Uniuersitie men those whiche handled the penne of the wryter that they came out to helpe in the battayle agaynst the enemies of God And in the first booke of Samuell and in the seconde booke of the Kings 1. Sam. 19. when Naioth and Bethel Iericho and a place beyonde Iordan are specified places which were 2. Rg. 2. scholes or Uniuersities where the scholers of the Prophets were brought vp in the feare of God and good learning the continuance of whiche scholes and vniuersities amongst the people of God Act. 6. may be easily gathered of that which S. Luke writeth in the Actes where it may appeare that in Ierusalem there were certayne Colleges appoynted for seuerall countrey men so that there was one College to receyue the Iewes and Proselites which came out of Cilicia another for those that came out of Alexandria c. to studie at Ierusalem And if any man be able to shewe suche euidence for Archbishops and Archedeacons as these are for vniuersities and scholes I will not denie but it is as lawfull to haue them as these Io. Whitgifte Yet sayth he truely for in those tymes in Christian congregations there were neyther publike Churches or Pulpits or scholes or Vniuersities c. and yet these doe apperteyne to the gouernmente of the Churche In déede S. Paule speaketh onely there of suche ecclesiasticall functions as doe teache and preache the worde and not of suche as doe onely gouerne and therefore it can not be a perfecte platfourme for euer as I haue before declared and yet dyuers of these thinges mentioned by the Bishop of Sarisburie perteyne bothe to the office of teaching and gouerning That whiche you saye of Scholes and Uniuersities I minde not to examine bicause I knowe they be necessary for the Churche howe aptely soeuer you proue them But this is the matter they be necessarie in the Churche bothe for the office The Byshop is not answered of gouerning and teaching and yet they be not expressed in the fourthe to the Ephesians therefore in that fourth to the Ephesians there is no perfecte paterne of all ecclesiasticall gouernment for that is the thing that the Bishop of Sarisburie affirmeth and therevnto you answere not one worde Not one of these places that you alleage proueth that in this texte to the Ephesians eyther Scholes or Vniuersities be mentioned thoughe it be certayne that they perteyne bothe to teaching and gouerning and therefore all this spéeche of yours is Ignorantia Elenchi to no purpose but onely to dasle the eyes of the Reader least he should perceyue how you offende in ignorantia Elenchi in not answering ad idem Chap. 4. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 3. Furthermore he sayth that the Churche is not gouerned by names but by offices so is it in deede And if the office of an Archbishop or Archdeacon can be shewed we wyll not stryue for the name but for so much as all the needefull offices of the Church togither with theyr names are mentioned in the the Scripture it is truely sayde that bothe the offices and names of Archebishop and Archedeacons beeing not onely not conteyned in them but also condemned ought to be banished out of the Churche Io. Whitgifte I haue before shewed that the office of visiting Churches of ouerséeing many Pastors The office of archbyshops archde cons contemed in scripture and Bishops of suppressing schismes c. was in the Apostles and is in the scriptures But in these things doth the office of an Archbyshop consist and in part of them the office of an Archdeacon therefore the offices of Archbyshops and Archdeacons be conteined in the scriptures and were in the Apostles time For although as I then sayde that this part of the Apostolicall office which did consist in planting and founding Churches through the whole world is ceased yet the manner of gouernment by placing Byshops in euery Citie by moderating and gouerning them by visiting the Churches by cutting of schismes and contentions by ordering Ministers remaineth still and shall continue and is in this Church in the Archbyshops and Byshops as most meete men to execute the same Wherefore séeing the offices be in the scriptures there is no cause why the names should be mislyked much lesse banished and cast out of the churche Chap. 4. the. 8. Diuision T C. Pag. 92. Sect. 4. Last of all he sayth that Anacletus if there be any wayght in his wordes nameth an Archbyshop I haue before shewed what waight there is in his wordes I refuse not that he be weyghed by the Byshops owne weyghtes whiche he giueth vs in the handling of the article of the supremacie and in the. 223. and. 224. pages by the which weyghtes appeareth that this Anacletus is not onely lighte but a playne counterfeit Io. Whitgifte Yet you sée that learned men are content to vse such authoritie as occasion serueth Supra ap 〈◊〉 ▪ diuis 13. as I haue also before shewed other learned men to doe the lyke And if it be to greatly to be reproued first smite at your selfe as most guiltie in this poynt Chap. 4. the. 9. Diuision The second Reason Secunda ratio ▪ The Synagogue of the Iewes was a figure of the Church of Christe And God to the perfection of that Church omitted nothing The Ansvvere of the Byshop I see not vvhat you vvoulde conclude perhaps you vvill saye they had Eius solutio not the names of Pope or Archbyshop So had they not this name Episcopus in all Moses lavve yet vvere not all Priests of like aunciencie in gouernment They had other names that vvere equiualent vvith Archbyshops as Principes Synagogae Principes sanctuarij Principes familiarum Leuiticarum Principes familiarum sacerdotalium Principes Sacerdotum Principes domus Dei Pontifex Summus Pontifex Summus sacerdos c. Therefore this negatiue reason is but vveake Agayne vvhereas it is sayde that to the perfection of the Synagogue there vvanted nothing it may be ansvvered that to the perfection thereof there vvanted many things as it is knovvne and confessed And as the Synagogue had not the names of Pope and Archbyshop so had it not the name of Apostle o Euangelist c. T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 5. The second reason which saith that the churche of God vnder the lawe had all all things needefu ▪ appointed by y e commaundement of God the Bishop saith he knoweth not what could be concluded of it I haue shewed before that there is nothing lesse ment than that the Church vnder the Gospell should haue al those things that y e Church had or should haue nothing which that had not But this ther vpon is concluded that the Lord which was so carefull for that
made 〈◊〉 Archbishop of Creta Erasmus saith Paulus Titū Archiepiscopū Eras. in arg epi. ad Titum Chryso cap. Tit. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And Lyra likevvise sayth Paulus instituit Titum Archiepiscopum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 authorities like you not Chrysostome sayth Paulus Tito mul 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 commisit Novv hauing the gouernment of many Byshops 〈◊〉 may vve call him but an Archbyshop T. C. Pag 93. Sect. 2. For the 〈◊〉 ast reasons against the Archbyshop and Archdeacon although I be well acquayn 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that fauour this cause yet I did neuer heare them before in my life and I beleue ther 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is be his reasons whose they are supposed to be and which did set downe the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Byshop confuteth Notwithstanding the former of these two seemeth to haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be grounded of that place of Logike that sheweth that according as the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of any thing is excellent so are those things that are annexed and adioyned vnto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I would she simplest should vnderstande what is sayde or written I will willing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 reasons the termes whereof are not easily perceyued but of those whyche be 〈◊〉 Io. Whitgifte 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you may dilclaime what you lyste for you coulde neuer be brought before The inconstancie of the Replyer his companions 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 downe your reasons in writing and there is no holde at your worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 euen at your pleasure and so wil diuerse of your com as 〈◊〉 hath taught But yet you thinke that this former reason hath a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. 〈◊〉 you answere not one word to my L. of Sarums solution which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be very fonde Chap. 4. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Sect. 3. And as for the answere which the Bishop maketh that in place of Apostles Prophets y e giftes of tongues of healing of gouernmēt are brought in vniuersities scholes Bishops Archbishops for scholes vniuersities I haue shewco they haue bin alwayes therfore cannot come in to supply the roome of the Apostles prophets And whether a man consider the schollers that learne or the scholemasters which teach or the orders appoynted for the gouernment of y e scholes they shal be founde to be rather ciuill than Ecclesiasticall and therfore can not come in steade of any Ecclesiasticall ministerie If the Bishop do meane that they come in place of the gift of the tongs and knowledge of the Gospell that was first giuen miraculously I graunt it and then it maketh nothing to this question Io. Whitgifte You haue not shewed that scholes vniuersities were alwayes in the Church of Christ nor you cannot shew that there were any vniuersities or scholes of Christians in the Apostles time I am not disposed to contrary any thing y t is alleaged for vniuersities or scholes neither would I haue you to denie this truth affirmed by my L. of Sarum for it is certeine that God worketh now in the Churche by meanes of vniuersities scholes that which he wrought in the Apostles time myraculously by his Apostles prophets And those gifts of tongs healing gouernment c. which he then inspired at once without teaching doth he now giue by little little vsing y e ministery of scholes vniuersities such like wherfore it is true that the Bishop hath said And wheras you say y e scholes whether a man consider y e schollers that learne or the scholemasters which teach or orders appointed for y e gouernment of y e scholes they shall be founde rather ciuill than Ecclesiasticall If you speake of scholes in a prophane or heathenishe common wealth it is true But if you speake of a Christian kingdome it is most vntrue For in a Christian cōmon wealth scholes are the first nurses that bring vp childrē in y e true knowledge of God of his word prepare many of thē to the ministerie both which are Ecclesiasticall Moreouer if you talke of vniuersities such especially as be in thys Realme of England then whether you consider either y e masters fellowes or schollers or rules or orders appointed for y e gouernment of them they be for y e most parte Ecclesiasticall and therfore those things make greatly for the purpose and you haue said nothing that can ouerthrow them Chap. 4. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Sect. 4. As for Bishops they can not come in place of Apostles or prophets for as much as they were when the Apostles Euangelists prophets were are one of those ministeries which S. Paule mentioneth in the. 4. to the Ephesians being the same that is the pastor Io. Whitgifte I tolde you before that y e part of the Apostles office which consisted in gouernment is now remaining in Archbishops and Bishops as to visite Churches to reforme disorders to suppresse contentions and such like which also they practised in the Apostles time in such places as were committed vnto them by the Apostles as it is euident in Timothie and Titus That Bishops do succeede the Apostles in this function of gouernment it may appeare Bishops succeed Apostles in gouernmēt Cyprian by sundry learned writers Cyprian Lib. 3. Epist. 9. writeth thus But Deacons must remember that the Lord hath chosen Apostles that is to say Bishops and chief gouernours but the Apostles after the Ascention of the Lord into heauen did appoint vnto themselues Deacons Ministers of their Bishopricke and of the Churche And Ambrose in 4. ad Ephe. Ambrose Zuinglius saith Apostoli Episcopi sunt Apostles are Byshops Zuinglius also in his Ecclesiastes saith that the Apostles when they left of goyng from place to place and remayned in one Churche were no more called Apostles but Byshops as Iames at Ierusalem and Iohn at Ephesus Wherby it may appeare that it séemeth straunge neither to the olde wryters nor to to the new to say that Byshops succéede the Apostles and come in place of the Chap. 4. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Page 93. Sect. vlt. There remayneth therfore the Archebishoppe whyche if he came in place of the Prophetes and Apostles as the Bishoppe sayth how commeth it to passe that the bishop sayth by and by out of the authoritie of Erasmus that Titus was an archebishoppe for at that tyme there was bothe Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes If it bee so therefore that the Archbyshoppe muste supplye the wante of Apostles c. howe commeth it to passe hee wayteth not his tyme whylest they were dead but commeth in lyke vnto one which is borne out of tyme and lyke the vntymely and hastye fruite whyche is seldome or neuer holesom And for one to come into the Apostles or Prophetes place requirerh the authoritie of hym whych ordeyned the Apostles c. whyche is the Lorde and his institution in his worde whiche is that whiche we desire to be shewed But hereof I haue spoken before at large Io. Whitgifte It is not vnknowne to suche as
be willing to learne that where the Apostles coulde not be presente themselues there they appoynted some other to gouerne the Churches for them as the Apostle Paule did Titus at Creta Therefore this reason of yours is sóone answered And in that that the Apostles dyd appoynt Byshoppes in Churches whyche they had planted and gaue vnto them suche authoritie it is euident that therin they made them theyr successours which they did not withoute sufficient testimonie and warrant of the spirite of God and therfore you do but talke you proue nothing Chap. 4. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Pag. 94. Lin. 9. Sect. 1. 2. The necessitie of Deanes I do not acknowledge I haue already spoken of them Touching Prebendaties I shall haue occasion to speake a worde hereafter For Earles and Dukes and suche lyke titles of honour they are ciuill neyther dothe it followe that bycause there may newe titles or newe offices be broughte into the ciuill gouernment that therefore the same maye be attempted in the Church For God hath left a greater libertie in instituting things in the common wealth than in the Churche For for so muche as there be diuers Common wealthes and dyuers formes of common wealthes and all good it falleth out that the offices and dignities whyche are good in one common wealthe are not good in an other as those whych are good in a Monarchie are not good in Aristocratie and those whiche are good in Aristocratie are not good in a popular state But that can not be sayde of the Churche whyche is but one and vniforme and hathe the same lawes and forme of gouernment thorough out the worlde In common wealthes also there are conuersions one forme beeing chaunged into an other whiche can not be in the true Churche of God Io. Whitgifte Your acknowledging or not acknowledgyng the necessitie of Deanes c. is not greatly materiall they depende not vpon you To the example of king Saule the first king of Israell you say nothing and yet it is materiall There is no suche difference betwixte the ciuill gouernment of the common wealth and the externall gouernment of the Churche but that the one in many thinges may be vsed as an example for the other And it is vntrue y t the external forme of gouernment in the Church ought to be one and the selfe same thorough out the worlde in all tymes and places as it shall hereafter more fully appeare But still I woulde haue the Reader to note Tract 17. what kynde of gouernmente of the Churche you doe allowe and ioyne the same wyth that assertion of yours that the gouernment of the common wealth muste bée framed according to the gouernmente of the Churche as the hangyngs to the house Chap. 4. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 94. Sect. 2. As for Erasmus authoritie which saith that Titus was an archbishop I haue answered to it And where as Chrysostome sayeth that the iudgemente of many Bishoppes was committed to Titus * vntrue for you haue not as yet spoken one worde of it I haue declared in what sorte it is to be vnderstanded and yet vppon these wordes the Bishoppe can hardly conclude that whyche he dothe that Titus hadde the gouernmente of many Bishoppes For it is one thyng to saye the iudgement of many was committed vnto Titus and an other thing to say that he had the gouernment of many Io. Whitgifte And shall the same answere serue for Lyra too Well I haue answered your answere to Erasmus And I truste that these authorities wyth the Godlie Reader shall haue the more credite bycause this Reuerende Father dothe herein confirme their opinions whose iudgement for his singular vertue and learning ought to be more estemed than a number suche as you are You neyther haue answered nor doe answere nor can answere these wordes of Chrysostome and it is but a verie poore shifte to make suche a distinction betwixte iudgemente and gouernment For what is it else to haue the iudgemente of manye Byshoppes commytted vnto hym but to haue the gouernment shewe a difference if you can No doubte you woulde haue doone it if you coulde Wherefore this authoritie of Chrysostome remayneth vntouched and it confirmeth my answere to the Gréeke Scholiast who borrowed his wordes of him Neyther would you haue thus dalyed in this place if you had looked vppon Chrysostomes wordes who there affirmeth that Paule didde commytte to Titus the whole yle of Creta Chap. 4. the. 20. Diuision The fourth Reason The Ecclesiasticall and Ciuill gouernment maye not be confounded or be together Quarta ratio in one person But to be a chiefe or a ruler is a ciuil power Ergo it can not be exercised by any Ecclesiasticall person The ansvvere of the Bishop Bothe these gouernmentes vvere confounded in Moyses Therefore Eius solutio they may be confounded And the priestes of Israell had the iudgemente and gouernment of the people And Sainct Augustine was troubled vvith hearing and determining of causes as it appeareth by Possidonius And vvhere you saye to be a chiefe or a ruler is a ciuil gouernment nay in Ecclesiasticall causes it is ecclesiasticall gouernment and not ciuil And these differences of gouernment may not so vnaduisedly be confounded This is the key of ecclesiasticall correction and belongeth only to the ecclesiastical officer and to none other Hereof S. Paule sayth Seniorem ne corripueris nisi sub c. Tradidi illum Satanae c. This iurisdiction is not ciuill but ecclesiasticall and therefore may be exercised by any ecclesiasticall person T. C. Page 94. Sect. 3. The answere of the Bishoppe vnto the fourthe supposed reason perteyneth vnto an other question that is whether Ecclesiastical persons oughte to exercise ciuill iurisdiction wherevnto I will answere by Gods grace when I come to speake vppon occasion of M. Doctors booke of that question In the meane tyme I will desire the reader to consyder what weake groundes the Archebishoppe and Archedeacon stande vppon seeyng that the Bishoppe of Sarum being so learned a man and of so greate readyng coulde say no more in their defense whiche notwithstandyng in the controuersies agaynst Doctor Harding is so pythie and so plentyfull Io. Whitgifte The Bishop of Sarum hathe sayde muche more than you haue answered vnto and in the respecte of the reasons he hath sayde fully inough You may not thinke but that if he had bin disposed to haue delt of purpose in this cause he coulde haue sayde muche more But your secrete and priuie nippes whereby y u 〈◊〉 to the Reader that he would willingly defende a false cause shall neuer be able to deface so worthie a Prelate You maye perceiue by this his conclusion 〈◊〉 toucheth you so néere that he tooke no great care or tyme for answering these weake reasons for thus he concludeth I beseeche you to take these sodaine answeres in good parte As for these reasons in my iudgement they are not made to buylde vp
anye bycause he is lefte at his owne libertie to answere to God and to make his accompte vnto Christe For by the same reason he myghte be exempled from the authoritie of the Ciuill Magistrate and from all Lawes and orders touching Churche matters and so myghte euery priuate man in lyke manner But you muste remember that a Bishoppe is so lefte to his owne libertie to answere vnto God and make accompte vnto Chryste that hée muste also acknowledge his duetie towardes man and be subiecte to orders and lawes What do you saye for the fréedome of a Bishop from obedience vnto the Archebishop but it may be sayde lykewyse of his fréedome from subiection to his Prince in lyke matters and of euery Anabaptist for his deliuerance from subiection to all superiours ▪ Wherfore you wring Cyprians wordes to an euill sense You haue bin oft tolde that no Archbyshop hath such power ouer either Byshop or inferioure minister that of his owne authoritie he can do any thing againste them The lawes of the realme will not suffer it no the Canon law dothe by no meanes permit it And therefore you do but dreame of an authoritie that is not Cyprian being a Metropolitane had authoritie ouer the rest The ciuill Magistrate doth gouerne the ecclesiasticall state punisheth disorders among them calleth them to accompt for their faults by Archbyshops Byshops and other officers as he doth the same in the ciuil state by ciuill magistrates Your meaning is not I dare say to haue the Prince heare al matters hir selfe You wil giue hir leaue to appoint vnder officers as Moses Dauid Solomon Iehosaphat other good kings haue done If you will not allow the Magistrate so to do let vs vnderstand your reasons for surely I beléeue there is some such toy in your head Chap. 5. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 3. The moderation of their authoritie in the aunciēt times may appeare first by a canon which is falsely giuen to the Apostles being as it is like a canon of the councell of Antioch (*) This canon is 〈◊〉 both by adding and 〈◊〉 whe in although 34. Canon it ordeyneth one Primate in euery nation ouer the rest and will not suffer any great matter to be done without him as also will not suffer him to do any thing without the rest yet euery Byshop might do that which apperteyned vnto his owne parrish without him (a) This you add vnto the canon and he nothing to do with him in it But as it seemeth the meaning of the canon was that if there were any waightie matter to be cōcluded for all the Churches in the nation then the byshops of euery parish should not enterprise any thing without calling him to councell Now we see that the Archbyshop medleth with that which euery Byshop doth in his owne dioces and hath his visitations for that purpose and will take any matter out of their hands concludeth also of diuers matters neuer making the Byshops once priuie to his doings Io. Whitgifte If it be a false canon or falsely gyuen to the Apostles why do you vse it as a proofe I might ay vnto you as you said before vnto me haue you such penurie of proofes that you are constrayned to alleadge false canons if it be a canon of the Councell of Antioch shew what canon it is if it be within that Councel vndoutedly it is the. 9. canon before by you alledged and how muche that proues your cause the very ignorant reader may iudge But let vs heare this canon be it true or false and consider your collections of it The canon alledged against himselfe the wordes I haue recited before but I will set them downe againe that your pythy reasons reasoning altogyther against your selfe may appeare The Byshops of euery nation or countrie must know who amongst them is chiefe whome they ought to esteeme Can. Apost 34. as their head and do nothing without his councell besides those things only which belong vnto their owne parish and the places which are vnder it neyther ought he to do any thing without the aduise of them all for so shal there be concord and God shall be glorifyed by Christ Iesus in the holy Ghost c. Here first ther must be a Primate or chiefe Byshop that is Archbyshop of euery nation or countrie whome the rest of the byshops must acknowledge as it were for their head Secondly the Byshops must do nothing vnaccustomed without him Thirdly that the other Byshops may do those things only quae ad parochiam eius regiones ei subditas pertinent VVhich perteine vnto his parish and places subiect vnto it which last words you leaue out Last of all that thys Primate must do nothing without their consents what hath the Archbishop lost by this canon surely not one iote I think verily he doth not require so much ▪ Euery byshop may do as much in his owne dioces now the authoritie of the Prince and hir lawes reserued as he might do by that canon for the Archbyshop dothe not rule by will but by law not of himselfe but vnder the Prince to whome both he and all other byshops be subiect You hit nothing lesse than the meaning of the canon nay vndoutedly you imagine a sense contrary to the expresse words of the canon When the Archbyshop dothe visite it is not to make newe lawes or appointe newe orders excepte he be commaunded so to doe by greater authoritie but to see those orders and lawes kepte that all Bishoppes and other are bounde vnto and therefore he doth nothing in their diocesse contrary to that which they are bound to do neyther doth he cōclude any thing without them which by their consent and authoritie of the law and Prince is not giuen vnto him Chap. 5. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 4. Higinus or as some thinke Pelagius I speake here as Platina reporteth not thinking that Platina cap Higin in Higinus time ther was any Metropolitane ordeyned that no Metropolitane should cōdemne any Byshop vnlesse the matter wer first both heard and discussed by the byshops of that prouince at what time and after a greate while a byshop was the (*) A grosse petitio of the principle or rather an vntruth same we call a minister Nowe the Archbyshop will without any further assistance or discussion by others suspend him and in the end also throw him out of his charge and if he haue the same authoritie ouer a byshop as a byshop ouer the minister as it is said he may do the like vnto him also Io. Whitgifte This is another forged witnesse such sound proofes the man hath that reprooues other men for the like and yet God knoweth his witnesse maketh nothing for him For who giueth authoritie to the Archbyshop to depriue eyther Byshop or inferiour minister without due proofe and examination of the cause touching consente of other if he deale with him according to
Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 1. Cyprian was Byshop of Carthage Numidia Mauritania Cyprian lib. 4. epist. 8. Timothie being Byshop had the gouernment almost of the whole countrie of Asia as Chrysostome declareth vpon the. 1. Tim. 5. and. 2. Tim. 4. Titus was Byshop of y e whole I le of Creta as the same Chrysost. testifyeth ad Tit. 1. I aue before by sundry Idem examples and testimonies by diuers councels and especially the councell of Nice 〈◊〉 the vanitie vntruth of this that is here affirmed that is that there was one Byshop in euery parish and congregation and the words of Cyprian and Ierome be cleane rary for they both make a difference betwene a Byshop to whome the gouernment of many pastors is committed and a pastor that hath but one seuerall flocke or charge For further vnderstanding whereof I referre y e Reader to that which is spoken before The byshops haue now as seuerall churches to preache and minister the sacraments in as they had then They haue no more authoritie in gouernment now than they had at that time nor so much and yet if they had more authoritie than they eyther haue now or had then I thinke it were more for the commoditie of the Church the state of the time and conditions of men considered As for ruling euery seuerall churche by those whiche you call Elders you haue shewed no such thing out of Ierome neyther can you For Ierome in that place you meane by presbyteri meaneth Priests as he dothe in all other places that I remember Neyther doth he there speake of particular parishes Touching the electing and ordeyning of ministers sufficient hath bin spoken before Tract 3. The Byshop doth nothing therein but that which he may iustly by the word of God and testimonie of the best and most worthy writers Of excommunication we shall speake hereafter you do glance at it now out of Tract 18. place And thus he that is an indifferēt Reader may vnderstand that the Byshops in these days in this Church of England haue no other authoritie than the word of God doth giue vnto them The Byshops of the primitiue Church haue pract sed y e libertie of the Church wel beareth and the state of the time and condition of men requireth Chap. 5. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Lin. 7. And as for the offices wherein there is any laboure or trauayle those they haue turned vnto the other ministers as for example in tunes past (*) A worthy councell it was not lawfull for him that was then an Hispal con ca. elder to preach or minister the sacraments in the presence of the Byshop bycause the Byshop himselfe should do it and now those which they call elders may preach and minister the sacraments by the Byshops good licence although he be present Io. Whitgifte There is no iust cause of complaint for most of the Byshops in that behalfe For I thinke the time hath not bin wherein there were moe preaching Byshops than are at this day in this Church But do you thinke that a minister may not preach or minister the sacraments in the presence of the Byshop Or do you so well allow of A corrupt councell alledged that Councell and canon quoted in your margent It was the second councell called Hispalense concilium it was not generall but prouinciall celebrated Anno. Dom. 659. the contents of the canon by you alledged are these That a Priest may not cōsecrate alters but only the Byshop that a Priest and Chorepiscopi may not consecrate virgines erect altars Hisp. Con. 2. Can. 7. blesse and anoynt them hallow churches make holy oyle and such like but only the Byshop Likewise that no priest may baptise say Masse ▪ teach the people or blesse them in the presence of the Byshop Surely this is a worthy Councel and a notable canon especially for you to alledge that haue so depraued other worthy writers for some imperfections founde in them But what doth it make for your purpose They might both preach and minister The councell alledged against himself the sacraments in the presence of the Byshop if he willed them and so is the canon This law was made for the encreasing of the Byshops pompe and dignitie for no man might presume to speake or do any thing in their presence without their leaue and licence so were they estéemed thē and such authoritie had they But if our Byshops should clayme the like you would say that it were an vntollerable arrogancie and pride I would to God all those that be deluded by you would consider your allegations and the grounds of your proofes Surely I woulde be loth to alledge any Councell of that time to proue any thing in controuersie Much more loth would I be to 〈◊〉 so corrupt a canon but lothest of all to alledge that which should be so flat against 〈◊〉 cause proue the cleane cōtrary to that which I affirme as this doth in your 〈◊〉 ▪ And here I haue one thing to tell you y t diuers of those things wherin you 〈◊〉 T. C. chargeth the office with the fault of the men make this difference betwixt our Byshops and those of the primitiue church if t ey were true yet wer they no saults in the office but in the men as for example thys which you here set downe Will you make a differēce in the offices of our Byshops and those of olde time bycause some of them do not preach This compareth the mē togither not the offices except you proue that it is forbidden or vnlawfull for one of our Byshops to preach There are other such like which I omitte Chap. 5. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 1. Now if you wil also consider how much the Lord ship pompe and statelinesse of the Byshops in our days differ from the simplicitie of them in times past ▪ I will giue you also a taste therof if first of all I shew the beginning or as it were the fountaine where vpon the pompe grew which Marke how this is proued was when in stead of hauing a Byshop in euery parishe and congregation they began to make a Byshop of a whole dioces and of a thousand congregations Io. Whitgifte If the pompe began as you say then began it in the Apostles time for then began they to make one Byshop ouer a whole diocesse as Timothie almost ouer all Asia and Titus ouer all Creta as I haue declared Which order hath bin from that day to this obserued throughout all Christendome as it may appeare by that which is already said Chap. 5. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 2. In an epistle of Zacharie vnto (*) It is an epistle o Pope Zacharie to Boniface not of Zacharie to Pope Boniface Pope Boniface it is thus written it hath bin oftētimes decreede Concil to 3 epist. Zacha Papae ad Bonifac. y t there should not be
a Bishop apointed in euery village ▪ or little citie least they should waxe vile (a) An vntruth as will appeare through the multitude wherby it both appeareth that ther was wont to be a Byshop in euery parish and vpon how corrupt and euill consideration one Byshop was set ouer a whole diocesse No doubt those that were authors of this had learned to well our olde prouerb the fewer the better cheare but the more Byshops the merier it had bin with Gods people Io. Whitgifte This epistle was writtē by Pope Zacharie to one Boniface which was Byshop in France and not to Pope Boniface moreouer it is in the. 2. tome of Councels and you haue quoted in your margent the third But to the matter You haue not one word in that epistle to proue that there was wont at any time The Epistle of Pope Zacharie falsified to be in euery parish a Byshop And you haue falsely alleadged the words of the epistle for these words least they should waxe vile through the multitude are not ther to be found The words of the Epistle be there For you must remember what we are commaunded by the olde canons to obserue that we ought not to ordein Bishops in villages and smal cities least the name of a Byshop should waxe vile What one word is there here of placing Byshops in euery parish Zacharie telleth Boniface that it is according to the olde canons that Byshops should not be placed in such smal cities but in more ample and large cities bycause the contemptiblenesse of the place dothe oftentimes bring contempt to the person and a Byshop ought to be estéemed and reuerenced If you had red the epistle you should haue perceiued that this Boniface had lately conuerted to christianitie interiorem Germaniam and that he had ordeyned amōg them certaine Byshops to gouerne them whome he desired Pope Zacharie by his authoritie to confirme to whome Pope Zacharie answering willeth him to consider whether the places be so conuenient or the number of the people so great vt Episcopos habere mereantur Meminerimus enim saith he quid in sacris canonibus c. as I haue rehearsed them befor ▪ And a little after he nameth the places where he will haue the byshops seates 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that there is nothing lesse ment than that there was in euery parish a Bishop 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 much as there was there before no Byshop in any parish but this is all that may be gathered that the seates of Byshops were by the olde canons apointed to be in the best cities and most famous places which to be true you may soone perceiue in those canons themselues mētioned here by Zacharie they are to be found dist 80. Chap. 5. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 2. And they might with as good reason hinder the sunne from shining in all places and the raine 〈◊〉 falling vpon al grounds for feare they should not be set by being common as to bring in such a wicked decree whereby vnder pretēce of deliuering the Byshop from contempt they sought nothing else but an ambitious and stately Lordship ouer those whiche had not that title of Byshop that they had although they did the office of a Byshop better than they did And what intollerable presumptiō is this to chaunge the institution of God as though he (*) When or where did God ordeyne this which ordeyned not one only but some number more or lesse of Byshops in euery Church did not sufficiently foresee that the multitude and plentie of Byshops could breede no contempt of the office And it may be as well ordeyned that the children of poore men shoulde not call them that begar them fathers and mothers but only the children of the rich and of the noble least that if euery man that hath children shoulde be called a father fathers should be set nothing by Io. Whitgifte It is a maruellous matter that you delight to runne so fast vpon a false string I tell you once agayne that you neuer red that Epistle neyther yet those canons that it speaketh of If you had red them you would neuer haue affirmed if there be any modestie left in you that the multitude of Byshops is alledged there as a cause of contempte no such thing being mentioned The canons haue a very good consideration and be not wicked but wise and godly This superioritie of Byshops is Gods owne institution and it hath a necessary vse in the Church of God as is shewed before It hathe bin and may be abused and it is and may be well vsed All these glorious words of yours are but very wordes and therefore as words I will committe them to the winde This one thing I cannot let passe that you say God ordeyned not one onely but some But one Bishop in a citie number moe or lesse of Byshops in euery Church What scripture haue you to proue that there should be more Byshops than one in one Church What one example in al the primitiue Church haue you to warrant this your assertion Nay you haue the whole practise of the Church to the contrary euen from the beginning Iames alone was Byshop of Ierusalem Timothie of Ephesus Titus of Creta Clemens of Rome c. and it hath bin always compted as monstrous to haue two Byshops of one citie as to haue two heads of one body But such bolde assertions without proofe are méete principles for such a ruinous and totering platforme as you dreame of Chap. 5. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 2. And here let vs obserue by what degrees and stayers Sathan lifted the child of perdition vnto that proud title of vniuersall Byshop First (*) In what place of scripture ▪ where the Lord did ordeyne that there shoulde be diuers pastors elders or Byshops in euery congregation (a) Is not this soundly proued ▪ Sathan wrought first that there should be but one in euery Church this was no doubt the first steppe Afterwards he pushed further and stirred vp diuers not to content themselues to be Byshops of one Church but to desire to be Byshops of a dioces wherevnto although it seemeth that ther was resistance in that it is sayd that it was decreede often yet in the end this wicked attempt preuayled and this was another steppe then were there Archbyshops of whole prouinces whiche was the thirde stayer vnto the seate of Antichrist Afterwards they were patriarches of one of the fower corners of the whole world the whole Church being assigned to the iurisdiction of fower that is to say of the Romaine Constantinopolitane Antiochene and Alexandrine Byshops and these fower stayers being layde of Sathan there was but an easie stride for the Byshop of Rome into that chaire of pestilence wherein he now sitteth Io. Whitgifte All this is as coldely proued as it is boldely affirmed for here is neyther scripture doctor story Councell or any thing else but ipse dixit How proue
you that the Lorde ordeyned that there should be in euery congregation diuers pastors elders or Byshops The place of scripture if there be any had bin soone quoted Or howe proue you that Sathan wrought first that there should be but one in euery Church Is it Sathās worke Sathan not the cause of one Byshop in one church that one Church should haue but one pastor This is straunge doctrine and far from an Apostolicall spirite contrary to the practise of the Apostles and of the Church euen from the beginning But séeing you haue so barely set it downe without any kynde of proofe I will passe it ouer by putting you to your proofe But yet tell me dyd Sathan stirre vp Timothie and Titus who were Byshops of one whole diocesse Did he stirre vp the other auncient fathers and godly Bishops of whome I haue spoken Whither will this slaunderous mouth reache whome will this venemous tongue spare if it speake so spitefully of such worthie Pastors Your collection of resistance that hath béene to such superioritie béeing grounded of the place that you neuer sawe nor red is rashe and vnaduised For if you had séene eyther that Epystle or those Canons you woulde or at the least you might haue learned another lesson Archbishops Patriarches c. were allowed by the Councell of Nice the godlyest and the most perfect Councell since the Apostles time that euer was And did Sathan rule there also and preuayle O that Arius were aliue to heare it These steppes whereof you make Sathan the authour and whereby you say the Bishop of Rome hath ascended into the Chayre of pestilence c. haue béene the best and most conuenient kinde of gouernment that euer was in the Church since the Apostles time approued and allowed by the best Councels and the next meanes to haue kept Antichrist out of his seate if in all places they had remayned in theyr full force and authoritie But this I may not passe ouer that you in effect confesse your kinde of gouernment by elders to haue ceased before the Councell of Nice and also one Bishop to haue béene ouer one whole Diocesse before that time in that you say that the childe of perdition was lifted vp by these degrées the last whereof was allowed in the Nicene Councell Chap. 5. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Page 96. Sect. 2. Hauing nowe shewed howe this Lordly estate of the Bishop began and vppon what a rotten grounde it is builded I come to shewe howe farre the Bishops in our tyme are for theyr pompe and outwarde statelinesse degenerated from the Bishops of elder tymes Io. Whitgifte A man woulde haue thought that you being so great an enimie to those degrées woulde not haue thus concluded vpon so small proofe and the same vtterly vntrue vsing onely for your grounde the Epistle of Pope Zacharie which maketh nothing for your purpose Now let vs sée how farre the Bishops of our tyme are for theyr pompe c. degenerated from the Bishops of elder tymes Chap. 5. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 3. And here I call to remembrance that which was spoken of the poore estate of Basill and Theodorete and if M. Doctour will say as he doth indeede in a certaine place that then was a time of persecution and this is a time of peace it is easily answered that although Basill were vnder persecution yet Theodorete liued vnder good Emperours But that shall appeare better by the Canons which were rules giuen for the Bishops to frame themselues by Io. Whitgifte It is for lacke of other examples that you are constreyned to repeate these To the poorenesse of Theodorete I haue answered there may be as poore Bishops now as there was then and there might be as riche Bishops then as there are nowe It is not one or two examples that can proue the contrarie Chap. 5. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 1. In the 4. Councell of Carthage it is degreed that the Bishops shoulde haue a little house 14. Canon ▪ it calleth it hospitiolū ▪ 15. Canon neare vnto the Church what is this compared with so many fayre large houses and with the princely Palace of a Bishop And in the same Councell it is decreed that he shoulde haue the furniture and stuffe of his house after the common sort and that his table and dyet shoulde be poore and that he should get him estimation by faythfulnesse and good conuersation Io. Whitgifte In the. 52. and. 53. Canons of the same Councell Clearkes how learned so euer they be in Gods woorde are willed to get their liuing by some occupation or by husbandrie but I thinke you will not haue them so to do now at this time Wherefore you must cōsider the diuersitie of the time and state of the Church If God hath dealt now more bountifully with his Church in externall benefites if he hath put into the hearts of Christian Princes thus to deale with the ministers of the woorde and if this state and condition be necessary for this time and people why should you enuie it Ritches and fayre houses be no hinderances but helpes if they be vsed accordingly and commonly hypocrisie and pryde lieth hidde vnder the name of pouertie and simplicitie Chap. 5. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Page 97. Sect. 1. And in another Councell that the Bishops should (a) No suche thing in that place not giue themselues to feastes but be 5. Canon concil Tyronen content with a litle meate Let these Bishops be compared with oures whose chambers shine with gilte whose walles are hanged with clothes of Auris whose cupbordes are loden with plate whose tables and diets are furnished with multitude and diuersitie of dishes whose dayly dinners are feastes let them I say be compared together and they shall be founde so vnlike that if those old Bishops were aliue they would not know eche other For they would thinke that oures were Princes and ours would thinke that they were some hedge Priests not worthie of their acquaintaunce or fellowship Io. Whitgifte If you meane the first Tyronense Concilium there is no such thing to be found in the 5. Canon of it nor in the whole Councell The fifth Canon conteyneth a profitable admonition for you and such as you are for it forbiddeth vnder the payne of excōmunication that any beyng a Clearke should leaue of his calling and become a lay man If you meane the seconde Tyronense Concilium I make you the like answere Belike your collector hath deceyued you but what if it were so This onely might be gathered that vnlesse Bishops then had bene welthie there should not haue néeded a decrée against feasting If our Bishops should make the like now it would be thought they did it for sparing And I thinke that and such like Canons méete not onely for Bishops but for all states and degrées of men Riches and costly furniture bée no impediment to a godly man for doing
good neighbours or else for tootoo much selfe loue oftentymes forget this lesson as in this place Howsoeuer the Grecians vsed to call euery one of any meane countenance in the common The tytle of most honourable Lorde wealth where he lyued 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lorde yet did they not vse to call him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 most honourable Lorde for that tytle was onely giuen to such as were of great dignitie and authoritie as it is in the place of Theodorete by you quoted giuen to Bishops and therefore you haue made an obiection which you cannot answere This worde Lorde doth signifie preheminence and superioritie and hauing this title most honourable ioyned with it it cannot but signifie some greate state and degrée of authoritie The same I answere to that which followeth And yet Rabbi was a name gyuen primarijs hominibus honore aliquo praeditis to the chiefe men and those which were Rabbi indued with some honour and in that the Euangelistes do translate it Lorde it is manifest that this name Lorde signified then a degrée of superioritie but hauing as I sayde this tytle most honourable added vnto it as it is in that place of Theodorete it cannot but signifie some especiall preheminence and therefore equiualent with the titles now vsed Master Caluine vpon the. 20. of Iohn verse 16 sayth that Rabboni Caluine which is there interpreted master is nomen non modò onorificum not onely an honouble name but also quod professionem continet obedientiae such as conteyneth a profession of obedience But doe the tytles of honour and degrée giuen vnto Bishops so much trouble your hawtie stomacke Surely you are not then of that spirit that the olde auncient Uerie honourable titles giuē to bishops fathers were who disdeyned not to call Bishoppes by as honourable tytles as wée doe looke in Atha his 2. Apol you shall there find the Synode gathered at Ierusalem writing to the Priestes of Alexand call Athanasius sundrie tymes Dominum not as by Atban Apol a common tytle but a tytle of dignitie quum vobis restituet pastorem vestrum dominum comministrum nostrum At h nasium VVhen he shall restore vnto you your Pastor and Lorde our fellow minister Athanasius In the same Apol. Bishops are called domini preciosissimi most excellent or worthie Lordes And it is euident in the same booke that there was no other tytle gyuen to the Emperoure himselfe for there hée is onely called Lorde and so were other of his Nobles in like maner So that in those dayes it was not grudged at to giue vnto Bishoppes the same ty les of honour that was giuen to the Emperour other Nobles The name of most reuerend is as much as the name of most honourable and yet was that name also giuen vnto Bishops in Athanasius tyme as appeareth in the same booke in sundrie places For Athanasius him selfe is called by his Priestes and Deacons reuerendissimus Episcopus Eusebius Nicomed wryting to Paulinus Bishop of Tyrus vseth this style Domino meo Paulino c. To my Lorde Paulinus to 1. con But what shoulde I labour to proue the antiquitie of such tytles which cannot be vnknowne to such as be learned I had more neede to declayme agaynst the pryde and hautinesse of such as do disdaine to vse them but I will not spende paper in wordes Chap. 5. the. 21. Diuision T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 5. 6. And as touching Ambrose house albeit the worde doth not employ so great gorgeou nesse nor maginfycence of a house as the Palaces and o her magnificall buildings of our Bishops yet the cause where vpon this rose doth more excuse Ambrose who being taken from great wealth and gouernment in the common wealth giuing ouer his office did reteyne (*) It was the house belonging to the Bishop his house and that which he had gotten But our Bishops A heape of slaunders do mainteyne this pompe and excesse of the charges of the Church with whose goodes a great number of ydle loytering seruing men are mainteyned which ought to be bestowed vpon the Ministers which want necessarie finding for theyr familyes and vpon the poore and maintenance of the Uniuersityes As for these ryotous expences of the Church goodes when many other Ministers want and of making great dinners and interteyning great Lordes and magistrates and of the answere to them that say they do helpe the Church by this meanes I will referre the reader to that which Ierome wryteth in an Epistle ad Nepotianum monachum where this is handled more at large Io. Whitgifte Your answere for Ambrose his house hath no probabilitie in it for the wordes Ambrose house within the bounds of the Church of Theodorete in that place do plainly declare that it was neare vnto the Churche yea infra sept Ecclesiae within the bondes or close of the Church and therefore most like to be the house perteyning to the Bishoprike and not any part of Ambrose his former 〈◊〉 For if you remember you sayde a little before that it was decréed in the. 4. Councell of Carthage Can. 14. that a Bishop shoulde haue his house neare vnto the Church But wise men can consider from whence such vnlikely assertions without any shew of proofe do come Bishops buylde not these great houses of the Churches goodes but receyue them Bishops defended against the slaunderous replie as left vnto them by such as were farre from séeking a spoyle they vso them according to the lawes of the lande and their number of men can in no respect be discommended tending to the defense and strength of the realme the honour of the Prince and their owne honest and góod education Our Bishops therefore vse the goodes of the Church according to the first institution and foundation and I doubt not but they vse them to more profite both of the Church and common wealth than they should be vsed if your phansies might take place Your complaint for ministers for the poore c. may be otherwise satisfyed than by Prouision 〈◊〉 ministers a spoyle For if benefices were rightly vsed the Ministers of thys Kealme are better prouided for than in any rountrey or age yea there are mo sufficient lyuings for them besydes the Bishoprikes than can be supplyed with able ministers The poore also are well prouided for God be thanked by sundrie meanes if lawes ròuision for the poore made for the same were duely executed and Hospitalles with suche other prouisions delyuered from vnreasonable Leases and bestowed vppon the poore according to their fyrst ordinaunces Wherefore this clamour of yours is nothing but the Where vnto the Repliers clamour tendeth The same axe is lifted against Uniuersities that hacketh at byshops landes voyce of an enuious spirite proclayming the spoyle of the Churche to the decay of learning and bringing in of barbarisme if it be not in time preuented The Uniuersityes are much beholding to you
for your care ouer them but what reasons haue you vsed agaynst the lyuings and houses of Byshoppes that may not also be vsed agaynst their landes and Colledges for in tymes past when that Councell of Carthage before by you alledged was holden there were nosuche Colledges indued with such possessions as there are nowe Neyther are there as I haue hearde in Christendome the like Colledges and the like liuings for Studie es as are in this Realme of Englande Wherefore if such examples and conditions of Countries tymes and persons bée sufficient to ouerthrowe Bishoppes houses and landes I sée not howe Colledges can stande long after them and therefore we pray you speake for your selfe we require not the helpe of so euill a Proctour Woulde you séeke to mainteyne learning with the spoyle of the Churche and the diminishing of the rewarde of learning An non vides quà m pugnanti loqueris By that Epistle of Ierome ad Nepotianum it appeareth that the state of the Clergie was not then so poore as you woulde séeme to make it Ierome reproueth the abuses The thing must not be condemned for the abuse of his time as couetousnesse gluttonie gorgeous and costly apparell with such lyke which at all tymes are in lyke maner to be condemned But doth he that reproueth the abuse condemne the thing It is a fault by couetous or vniust dealing to waxe riche but yet it is no fault to be riche Pride in apparell is to be condemned but yet euerie man may lawfully weare that apparell that is méete for his degrée No man alloweth gluttonie or immoderate seasting neyther doth any wise man condenme a plentifull table and good house kéeping It is not good dealing to applie that which is spoken agaynst the abuse of a thing to the condemning and quite euer throw of the thing it selfe as you d the wordes of Ierome in that Epistle Chap. 5. the. 22. Diuision T. C. Pag. 98. Lin. 2. By this which I haue cyted it appeareth what was one cause of this excesse and stately ompe of the Byshoppes namely that certaine noble and riche men beyng chosen to the ministerie and liuing somewhat like vnto the former estates wherein they were before others also assayed to be like vnto them as we see in that poynt the nature of man is to readie to followe if they see any example before theyr eyes But there is no reason bicause Ambrose and such like did so therefore our Bishops shoulde do it (*) This is before answered of the Churches costes Nor bicause Ambrose and such lyke did tarie in their trim houses which they had built them selues of their owne charge before they were Bishops that therfore they should come out of their chambers or narrow houses into courts and pallaces builded of the Churches costes Io. Whitgifte Where haue you shewed any such thing by Ambrose his example or how doth it appeare that by such meanes the pompe of the Bishops as you cal it was brought in That which you speake of Ambrose house is most vntrue it was perteyning to the Byshop and no part of Ambrose his proper possessions as it is euident by this that it was neare vnto the Churche euen within the limits of the Church as I haue sayde before Chap. 5. the. 23. Diuision T. C Pag. 98. Sect. 1. Another reason of this pompe and statelinesse of the Bishops was that which almost brought in all poyson and popish corruption into the church and that is a foolish emulation of the manners and fashions of the idolatrous nations For as this was the crafte of Sathan to drawe away the Israelites from the true seruice of God by theyr fonde desyre they had to conforme themselues to the fashions of the Gentiles so to punish vnthankefull receyuing of the Gospell and to fulfill the Prophecies touching the man of sinne the Lord suffred those that professed Christ to corrupt thei wayes by the same sleyght of the Diuell Io. Whitgifte If it be inough to say without any kinde of proofe then you haue sayd some thing T. C. still offende h 〈◊〉 petitione princip but if woordes without proofes be but light then are these woordes so to be estéemed not otherwise I know the Papistes through foolish imitation of the Gentiles haue brought in sundrie superstitions of the Gentiles But I speake of the matter we haue in hande that is inequalitie of degrées and authoritie among the ministers of the Churche and the names and offices of Archbishop Bishop Archdeacon c. which you neyther haue shewed nor can shew to be brought into the Churche by any imitation of the Gentiles and therefore you do still Petere principium Chap. 5. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 98. Sect. 2. Galerianus Maximinus the Emperour to the ende that he might promote the idolatrie and Euseb. 8. 〈◊〉 15. superstition where vnto he was addicted chose o the choysest magistrates to be priestes and that they might be in great estimation gaue eche of them a trayne of men to followe them (a) A 〈◊〉 collection and now the Christians and Christian Emperours thinking that that would promote the Christian religion that promoted superstition and not remembring that it is often tymes abhominable before God which is esteemed in the eies of men ▪ endeuoured to make their Bishops encoūter and match with those idolatrous priestes and to cause that they should not be inferiour to them in wealth and outwarde pompe And therefore I conclude that seing the causes and fountaynes from whence this pompe and statelinesse of Bishops haue come are so corrupt and naught the thing it self which hath rysen of such causes can not be good Io. Whitgifte There is no such thing in that place of Eusebius quoted in your margent for in that booke and chapter of Eusebius he onely sheweth that Inchaunters and Sorcerers were greatly estéemed of Maximinus and that he buylded Churches of Idols in euery Citie and appoynted idolatrous Priestes in euery place also that he placed in euery prouince one to be chiefe ouer the rest furnished him with souldiers and seruants but there is not one woorde that any Christian Prince toke any example of him to do the like in Christianitie It rather appeareth that Maximinus did in this point imitate the Christians who had theyr Metropolitanes and one chiefe Bishop in euery prouince long before this time as I haue declared before And I sée no cause why you should say that Christians did follow the Gentiles rather in prouiding for the ministers of the Gospell sufficiently than in buylding of Churches in euery Citie and placing ministers in them for Maximinus did this aswell as he did the other This I am well assured of that there is no such signification in that place of Eusebius that any Christian Prince should follow this example And therefore your conclusion beyng collected and gathered of such false and vntrue coniectures must néedes be lyke vnto them I do not
speake to mayntayne any excessiue or outrageous pompe but I speake of the egrees in the Ecclesiasticall state and of the manners and conditions of the persons as they be now according to the lawes and customes allowed in this Church of England Chap. 5. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 98. Sect. 3. And thus will I make an end leauing to the consideration and indifferent waying of the indifferent reader how true it is that I haue before propounded that our Archbishops Metropolitanes Archdeacons Bishops haue besides the names almoste nothing common 〈◊〉 those which haue bene in lder tymes before the sunne of the Gospell beganne to be maruelously darkened by the stinking mistes which the Diuell sent forth out of the bottomlesse pit to blynde the eyes of men that they should not see the shame and nakednesse of that purpled whoore which in the person of the Cleargie long before she gatte into hir seate prepared hir selfe by payntyng hi writhen face with the colours of these gorgeous titles and with the shewe of magnificall and worldly pompe For the Diuell knewe well inough that if he should haue set vp one onely Byshop in that seate of perdition and lefte all the reste in that simplicitie wherein God had appoynted them that his eldest sonne shoulde neyther haue had any way to get into that and when he had gotten it yet beyng as it were an owle amongst a sorte of byrdes should haue bene quickly discouered Io. Whitgifte And I also leaue it to the iudgement of the learned and indifferent Reader 〈◊〉 consider by that which I haue sayde before how vntrue all this is that you here affirme I speake of these degrées and offices as they be nowe vsed in this Churche of England if there be any difference it is bycause they haue not so large and ample iurisdiction and authoritie now as they had then Sathan worketh by sundrie meanes and spareth no fetches to bring to passe his The subtiltie of Sathan in counterfeyte godlinesse must not preiudice that which is true purpose Under the pretence of zeale he hath ingendred sectes and schismes vnder the title of puritie perfection he hath brought in heresie vnder the cloake of simplicitie he hath spread abrode many kindes of idolatrie and superstition vnder the shadow of humilitie he hath couered vntollerable ambition and marueylous arrogancie and what soeuer he bringeth to passe commonly he doth it vnder the colour of vertue and of that which is good and therefore I thinke that euen vnder the names and titles of lawfull degrees and calling he hath established vnlawfull authoritie but neyther is true zeale puritie perfection simplicitie humilitie nor yet lawfull degrées and callings therefore to be condemned Viti as Cyprian sayeth vicin sunt virtutibus Vices Discretion is very necessary be very nigh vnto vertues and the one laboureth to imitate the other but we must not therefore the lesse estéeme of vertue but rather learne prudently to discerne what is the difference betwixt the one and the other If we haue not learned this lesson what state in the common wealth what office what degrée of person nay what kinde of gouernment shall we allowe it is the greatest folly in the worlde to condemne the thing it selfe bycause of the abuse Chap. 5. the. 26. Diuision T. C Pag. 98. Sect. 3. But I haue done only this I admonish the reader that I do not allowe of all those thinges A proper ca eat which I before alleaged in the comparison betwene our Archbishops and the Archbishops of olde tyme or our Bishops theyrs Onely my intent is to shew that although there were corruptions yet in respect of ours they be much more tollerable and that it might appeare how small cause there is that they should alleage their examples to confirme the Archbishops and Bishops that nowe are Io. Whitgifte You do well to worke surely for now shall no man take any great aduauntage of your woordes how be it it had bene curteously done to haue let vs vnderstand what you allowe of this you haue wrytten and what you allowe not For in leauing the matter so rawly you will make vs suspect that you haue spoken you know not what Other things concerning the offices and authoritie of our Cleargie of inequalitie of degrees amongst ministers c. dispersed in other places of the Answere Chap. 6. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 75. Sect. vlt. Concerning the offices of an high commissioner iustice of peace how necessarily they be committed to some of the best wisest of the Cleargie what vice by them is bridled what inconuenience mette with what necessarie discipline vsed those know that be wise haue experience in publike affaires and gouernment There is no worde of God to proue why these offices may not concurre in one man But it is the commission that troubleth these men as for peace they are at defiance with it T. C. Pag. 98. Sect. 4. Concerning the offices of cōmissionership and how vnmeete it is that ministers of the worde should exercise them and how that the worde of God doth not permitte any such confusion of offices there shall be by Gods grace spoken of it afterwarde Io. Whitgifte And vntill that afterward be performed will I also differre that which is further to be sayd in this matter Chap. 6. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 76. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Pag. 77. Sect. 1. To be shorte they say that all these offices be plainely in Gods worde forbidden and they alleage Math. 23. Luc. 22. 1. Cor. 4. 1. Pet. 5. The places of Mathew Luke be answered before Christ beateth Tract 1. downe ambition and pryde and desire of bearing rule as he did before when he sayde be ye not called Rabbi and call no man father be not called Doctors he doth not condemne the names but the ambition of the minde In the. 1. Cor. 4. it is thus written Let a man thus thinke of vs as of the ministers of Christ c. The ministers of the worde in deede are not to be estemed as Gods but as the ministers of God Some among the Corinthians gloried in their ministers and attributed to much vnto them Here of came these factiōs I holde of Paule I of Apollo c. This teacheth your adherentes and disciples not to attribute to much to you such as you are or any other minister of Gods word It maketh nothing agaynst the names or authorities eyther of Archbishop Lordbishop or any other that you haue named who be the ministers of Christ and ought so to be esteemed The place of S. Peter cap. 5. is this Feede the flocke of God c. not as though you vvere Lordes ouer the flocke c. Peter here condemneth hautinesse contempt and tyrannie of pastors towards theyr flockes he doth not take away lawfull gouernment The Pastor hath rule and superioritie ouer his flocke but it must not be
Churche be so great and the people so many that he cannot be heard of them then there ought to be some regarde thereof S. Luke telleth what S. Peter dyd in the congregation he dothe not prescribe any general rule Euery circumstance that is tolde in the scriptures is not streightway to be made an inuiolable rule of all men to be followed The place is not material so that it be suche as the people may well heare and vnderstande that whiche is read and preached Concerning the lessons whiche are to be read the booke prescribeth no place only it willeth the minister to stande and to turne him so as he may best be heard of all suche as be present And are you offended at that neyther doth y ◠booke appoynt any certein place for the Le anie to be sayde in and therfore you do but dally and trifle The Ordinarie is the méetest man to whose discr tion those things sh uld be le t both for his learning wisdome and also that there may be one vniforme or 〈◊〉 his diocesse if any Ordinarie be carelesse in such matters if you wil complaine of him I am sure you shal be heard But your delight pleasure is to be gyrding at Bishops though the cause be forged Chap. 1. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 3. And the ende of the order in the booke is to be obserued which (*) 〈◊〉 is to kepe the prayers in the accustomed place of the church chappell or chauncell which howe maketh it to edification And thus for the generall faultes committed either in the whole lyturgie or in the most part of it both that I may haue no neede to repeate the same in the particulars and that I be not compelled alwayes to enter a new disputation so oft as M. Doctor saith very 〈◊〉 vnlike a diuine (*) These be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whence so euer this or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the Church of Christ. Io. Whitgifte What is the ende of the booke in that matter why do you not expresse it But you say it is to keepe the prayers in the accustomed places c. if this be the ende why doth the book admitte alteration do you not sée your solfe manifestly conuinced by the booke I beléeue and I am well assured that the ende is edification whatsoeuer you imagine to the contrarie And vndoubtedly you haue founde out maruellous weightie and wittie reasons agaynst the whole Lyturgie or the moste parte of it And the faults you haue noted be very many and excéeding great But haue you no conscience in calling good euill or are you not afrayde vpon so light quarels to make suche a schisme in the Church and to bring so worthy a booke into so great contempt Well you will one daye be better aduised I doubt not whiche truely I wishe for and hope for howe vncourteously so euer you haue vsed me That which M Doctor sayth so vnskilfully and vnlike a diuine he hath learned of better and more skilfull diuines than eyther of vs bothe be that is of Ambrose and of Caluine for the one sayth Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu sancto est All truthe of 〈◊〉 in ▪ ▪ Mat. vers 37. whom soeuer it is spoken is of the holy Ghost the other Purus est multarū erū vsus quarū vitiosa est origo The vse of many thinges is pure whose beginning is vicious and vnpure But M. Doctors bare affirmation if he had so vsed it is of as good credite as your bare negation But when he hath learned mē of his opinion and Iudgement for you thus to shift it of is but to bewray your vnablenesse to disproue it either by authoritie or reason You should at the least haue made true repor e of my words which you haue not done but delt therin according to your accustomed manner for my wordes be th se. Fol. 82. It maketh no matter of whome it was inuented in Pag. 82. sect what booke it is conteyned so that it be good and profitable and con onant to Gods worde and you reporte them thus whence soeuer this or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the churche of Christ. If you haue the truthe why doe you thus goe about to maynteyne it with lyes In so doing you hurt not me but your selfe and your cause ¶ An examination of the particular faultes eyther in matter or forme wherwith the booke of common prayer is charged Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 3. Nowe I come to the forme of prayer whiche is prescribed wherein the Authors of the Admonition declare that their meaning is not to disallowe of prescript seruice of prayer but of thys fo rme that we haue (*) A prop excus for they expounde them selues in the additions vnto the fyrst parte of the Admonition Io. Whitgifte In déede they haue retracted it in some poynt which argueth they writte their booke at the first with small aduise and lesse discretion It is no exposition but a retractation or recantation for the places of Scripture which they quoted and their very wordes declare that they ment the contrary and so doth their practise in secrete conuenticles But now you come to my Answere wherein you take what you list and leaue what you list as you haue hitherto done Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Admonition The fouretenth Then ministers were not so tied to any forme of prayers inuented by mā but as the spirit (g) Rom. 8. 26 1. Tim. 1. 2 moued them so they powred forth hartie supplications to the Lord. Now they are bound of necessitie to a (h) Damasus the first inuentor of this stuffe vvell furthered by Gregory the seuenth prescripte order of seruice and boke of common prayer Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 77. Sect. 3. To proue that ministers were not so tied to any forme of prayer inuented by man but that as the spirite moued them c. you quote Rom. 8. the 1. Timo. 1. In the eight to the Romaines the wordes be these Likevvise also the spirite helpeth our infirmities for vve knovve not vvhat to pray as vve ought but the spirite it self maketh request for vs vvith fighes which cannot be expressed This place speaketh nothing against any prescript forme of prayer for then it should disallow the Lordes prayer but it teacheth vs that it is the spirite of God that sturreth vs vp to pray and maketh vs earnestly poure out our supplications vnto God And thus the spirit worketh as well by prescript prayers as by prayers sodenly inuented The wordes to Timothie Epist. 1. ca. 1. vers 2. are far fetched nothing to the purpose the wordes be these Vnto Timothie my natural sonne in the fayth grace mercie and peace from God our father and from Christ Iesu our Lorde what maketh these wordes against any prescript forme of
then came it neyther from the Papistes nor yet from the Gentils But whensoeuer this began or from whom soeuer it was taken the baptizing of infantes hath alwayes bene thought necessarie in the Church by all such as haue not deuided themselues by any Schisme or Heresie from the same Chap. 5. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 113. Sect. 4. Now I returne to the example of Sephora and say that the vnlawfulnesse of that facte doth appeare sufficiently in that she did it (*) Mose by reson of sicknesse was not able to do it himselfe before hir husbande Moses which was a Prophete of the Lorde and (a) This is contrary to that he hath Pag. 17 Sect. 1. to whome that office of circumcision did appertayne so that vnlesse M. Doctor would haue midwiues baptise in the presence of the Bishop or the minister there is no cause why he shoulde alleage this place besides that she did cut of the fore skinne of the Infante not of minde to obey the commaundement of God or for the saluation of the chylde but in a choler onely to the ende that hir husbande might be eased and haue release which minde appeareth in hir both by hir woordes and by casting away in anger the foreskinne which she had cut of And if it be sayde that the euent declared that the acte pleased God bycause that Moses forthwith waxed better and was recouered of his sickenesse I haue shewed before how if we measure things by the euent we shall oftentymes iustifie the wicked and take the rightuousnesse of the rightuous from them Io. Whitgifte In the. 170. Page of your booke you say that God toke the Priesthode from Moses Pag. 170. Sect. 1. and gaue it to Aaron and nowe you séeme to affirme the contrarie in saying that Moses was a Prophete of the Lorde to whome that office of circumcision did apperteyne for hereby you do insinuate that Moses was a Prieste Moreouer Moses at this tyme was extréemely sicke and therefore could not execute that office himselfe And in the Geneua Bible there is this note that it was extraordinarie for Moses was sore sicke and God euen then required it Sephora therefore did circumcise in a poynt of extremitie Baptisme true though not ordinarily ministred and not wilfully or of purpose that circumcision was a true circumcision though it were not done ordinarily euen so Baptisme is true Baptisme though it be sometimes ministred by such as be not ordinarie ministers The euent doth oftentimes declare the thing Exitus acta probat though not necessarily but this is certayne that these euentes are better reasons to iustifie the fact than you can she we any out of that place to the contrarie Chap. 5. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 113. Sect. vlt. Pag. 114. Sect. 1. An other reason he hath which is that the dignitie of the sacramentes doth not depende vpon the man whether he be minister or no minister good or euill In deede vpon this poynt whether he be good or an euill minister it dependeth not but on this poynt whether he be a minister or no dependeth not onely the dignitie but also (a) A straunge as sertiō auouched without proofe the beyng of the Sacrament so that I take the baptisme of women to be nomore the holy Sacrament of baptisme than I take any other dayly or ordinarie washing of the childe neyther let any man thinke that I haue at vnwares slipped into this asseueration or that I haue forgotten that soone after the tymes of the Apostles it was the vse of certayne Churches that Deacons shoulde baptize in the tyme of necessitie as they call it for as for the Baptisme of Deacons I holde it to be lawfull for bycause although as it is with vs they giue him the name of Deacon (*) Vrge hoc c. yet in deede he is as he then was in the elder tymes a minister and not a Deacon And although he did then provide for the poore and so had two functions which was not meete yet his office ought to be esteemed of the principall parte of his function which was preachyng and ministring of the Sacramentes in certayne cases And as for the baptising by laye men considering that it is not onely agaynst the woorde of God but also founded vpon a false grounde and vpon an imagined necessitie which is none in deede it moueth me nothing at all although it be very auncient for so muche as the substance of the Sacrament dependeth chiefly of the institution and woorde of God whiche is the forme and as it were the lyfe of the sacrament of which institution this is one and of the chiefe partes that it should be celebrated by a minister Io. Whitgifte If this be true and sounde doctrine then is there many that go vnder the name The inconuenience of the Repliers doctrine of Christians whiche were neuer baptized for besides diuerse that haue bene baptized by women some there are and not a fewe that haue bene baptized by suche as haue taken vpon them the ministerie not beyng therevnto eyther ordinarily or extraordinarily called and it may so be that T. C. hath hereby proued himselfe to be no Christian. And surely if you peruse all the writinges of the auncient Fathers and of the The assertion hath no sufficiēt patrones late wryters in lyke manner I beléeue that you shall not finde the lyke proposition affirmed for although diuers bothe olde and newe do not allowe that Lay men shoulde be suffred to baptise yet is there none of them suche onely excepted as erre in rebaptisation that thinke the beyng of the sacrament so to depende vpon the minister that Baptisme by lay men Tertull. Ambrose Hierome Augustine Zuinglius it is no sacrament if it be not celebrated by a minister Tertull. in his booke De Baptismo sayth That laye men may Baptise Ambrose in the. 4. ad Ephes. sayeth that in the beginning it was lawfull for all menne to Baptise Ierome ad Luciferianos affirmeth that it is lawfull for Laye men to Baptise if necessitie do requyre And herevnto also dothe S. Augustine agrée in his 2. Booke agaynst the Epistle of Parmenian the. 13. Chapter M. Zuinglius in the place before by me alleaged VVriteth that the seconde errour in the circumstances of Baptisme is aboute the person bycause they thinke that Baptisme can not be gyuen of any but of a Prieste onely whereas if necessitie do requyre any man may do it And a little after he sayeth That this and such lyke circumstances are not De ipsa Baptismi essentia Not of the beyng of the Sacrament Whiche is directly contrary to your assertion M. Caluine also in his Institutions Cap. 17. Sect. 16. doth sufficiently Caluine confute this errour in these woordes Nowe if it be true that we haue set downe the Sacrament is not to be esteemed of his hande by whome it is ministred but as it were of the
iudgement what shall become of suche as not onely not preache themselues but deface other men that preache by backbiting and slaundering and spreading abrode false rumours vpon them to discredite both their persons and doctrine and with sectes schismes rent in péeces the Church of Christ and violently plucke downe whatsoeuer other men haue builded O. T. C. these things would be considered in time The seconde Diuision T. C. Pag. 123. Sect. 2. And heere M. Doctor taketh occasion to vtter his stomacke agaynste London ▪ flynging of one syde agaynste the women of the other syde agaynste the Ministers whose diligence bycause it maketh M. Doctors negligence more to appeare as a darke and dus she colour matched with that whiche is cleare and lightsome he doth goe aboute to deface with the vntrue and slaunderous surmyse of loose negligente and vnprofitable preachyng If there be some one such or two in London t is too greate iniurie therefore to charge indefinitely the companye of the ministers of London Besydes that M. Doctor dothe not see howe fyrste he accuseth the ▪ Bishop or euer he beaware bothe in ordeyning suche ministers and not in reforming them beyng so farre out of order and then the Archbishop whiche doth not require this disorder at the Bishops hande 〈◊〉 as he sayeth this is so godlie and heauenly an order to haue one Bishop ouer many ministers and one Archebishop ouer dyuers ▪ Bishops and if we shall esteeme the pythinesse and fastnesse of preachyng ▪ by the frutes as by the knowledge and sear ▪ of God in the people of London and by faythfull and true hearts toward the Prince and the Realme I thynk that that which he termeth 〈◊〉 loose and vnprofitable preachyng wit fal out to be waightyer and to leaue a deeper printe behynde them than those monethly sermons whyche he speaketh of And tte Ministers of London better ministers whiche preache twice a day than those whiche make the words of God nouell and daynties and as M. Latimer pleasantly sayd Strawberies commyng only at certayne tymes of the yeare Io. Whitgifte I speake fyrste of the Authours of the Admonition Then I reporte M. Whithead his saying of dyuers preachers in London whiche if you coulde haue improued I thynke you woulde I knowe there be manye graue learned wyse and go re Preachers in London whyche haue greately profited that place and as instrumentes haue wroughte those good effectes you speake of in the heartes of many But I knowe also there be some others farre vnlyke vnto them in all respects who by their vndiscreate and loose dealyng haue as muche as yeth in them wroughte the contrarie If they haue bene suffered eyther throughe the negligence of Archebishop or Bishop I excuse neyther of them I thinke they haue good cause to take better héed hereafter Touching the women of London I haue not sayde any thyng to their disprayse I knowe a number verie honeste and godlie and I knowe none that is euyll Onely I require that modestie in some of them that beséemeth sober matrones and women pro essyng the Gospell It is not séemely for a woman to speake in the Churche no not that whiche is good muche lesse comely is it for hir to sc lde openly in the streates or to be a common deprauer of others at tables and other meetings There is no cause why I shoulde beare a stomacke 〈◊〉 London whiche place I haue alwayes honoured where I haue many friendes to the whych I haue shewed as many tokens of good will as any one man of my abilitie But if I admonishe some of the Citezens and bidde them take héede that they abuse not the Gospell to serue theyr affections that they make it not a cloke for theyr contentions that they waxe not wearie of it and desire straunge Doctrines that they heape not vp suche Preachers vnto themselues as maye serue theyr humours that they shewe themselues more thankfull for the Gospell the whyche they haue so long receyued that they studye for peace and quietnesse that they grieue not the Prince in séekyng alterations by whome they enioy the pure worde of God true vse of his Sacramentes and syncers woorshyppyng of hym To be shorte if I moue them to brotherly loue true obedience to theyr Superiours and hatred of sectes and schismes whervnto diuers of them be too much drawne by such as you are Do I vtter my stomacke agaynst them If eyther they or you take it so ▪ then I answere that I must obey God rather than man and preferre my Prince before all my friendes But this is a péece of your Rhetorike to drawe into hatred which I doubt not the godlie will easyly espie and iudge of your spirite accordingly The thirde Diuision Admonition Nay some in the fulnesse of their blasphemie haue sayde it that muche preachyng bryngeth the worde of God into contempt and that foure preachers were inough for all London so farre are they from thinking it necessarie seeking that euery congregation should haue a faithfull pastor Answere to the Admonition Pag. 167. Sect. 2. 3. If any haue mislyked often preachyng or hane sayde that muche Uerball preachers preachyng bryngeth the worde of God into contempte or that foure preachers were inough for all London they are to be blamed and that iustely and not the booke for it willeth no man to say so But if any hath sayd that some of those which vse to preach often by their loose negligente verball and vnlearned Sermons haue brought the worde of God into contempte or that foure godlie learned pithy diligent and discreete preachers might do more good in London than fortie contentious vnlearned verball and rashe Preachers they haue sayde truely and their saying myghte well be iustifyed Howbeit take heede that you slaunder no man or vniustly seeke the discredite of any whylest you seeke to vtter youre malice against that godlie booke None that fauoureth Gods word as I thinke denyeth that hearing the worde of God is the vsuall and ordinarie meanes whereby God vseth to woorke faythe in vs And that therfore Preachers be necessarie T. C. Page 124. Lin. 10. Of this thing M. Doctor speaketh agayne in the. 167. page but to this effect altogether and almoste in the same wordes Io. Whitgifte And yet is there somthing there that would haue bin answered but I take that as graunted whiche is not answered The fourth Diuision Admonition The seuententh and eightenth Then nothing taught but Gods word now princes pleasures mēs deuises Popish ceremonies and Antichristian rites in publike pulpits defended Then they sought (p) Phil. 2. 20. 21. them now they seeke theyrs Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 84. Sect. 3. 4. 5. It had bin wel to let vs vnderstand what those Princes pleasures The Churche of Englande slaundered by the Admonitors be what mens deuises what Popish ceremonies what Antichristiā rites for nowe you haue but slandered both the Prince the whole state of religion in this
For proofe of all that I haue here sayde I referre my selfe to common experience and the like pract ses in other Churches by persons of much like disposition as the notes in the beginning of the second edition of my Answer to the Admonition doth more 〈◊〉 large declare What that lawfull eccles asticall gouernment of those which you say God hath appoynted in his word is ▪ and whether it verifyeth my saying or no shall be séene whē we come to that part of your Replie Certain it is that you would transferre both the authoritie of the Prince Archbyshop and Bishop to your selues and your seniors ▪ for that is the lawfull ecclesiasticall gouernment you meane And those be the persons whome you thinke God to haue appoynted in his word as it will fall out more euidētly hereafter Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 87. Sect. 2. Wherefore you that be in authoritie if you loue the peace and prosperitie An exhortation to those that be in authoritie of the Church of Christ if you desire the good successe of the Gospell if you will preserue the state of this Realme if you thinke it necessary to haue good magistrates to haue good lawes and orders in a common wealth if you esteeme learning and seeke to preferre it if you hate anarchian confusion Anabaptisme if you allowe of your owne condition ▪ and like of a kingdome better than of a popular state Then prouide betime some speedy remedy for these and suche like kind of men and if the religion you haue established be good if the orders and lawes you haue made be conuenient let them not be written against spoken against nay openly contemned and broken withoute sharpe and seuere punishment suffer not suche as execute them to be contemned hated discouraged and oftentimes frumped Lawekeepers contemned by some superiours Either let your lawes be mainteined as lawes or else deliuer vs from our dutie in executing and obeying of them T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 2. He turneth him self to those that be in authoritie whom he would make beleue that it standeth vpon the ouerthrow of the church of religion of order of the Realme of the state of Princes of Magistrates which are by this meanes established and whose estates are made this way most sure when as the true causes of these clamors and outcries that M. Doctor maketh is nothing else but the feare of the ouerthrow of that honoure which is to the dishonor of God and ignomune of his Church and which maketh to the good dispensing of these goodes for the ayd and helpe of the Church which now serue to oppresse it Io. Whitgifte It shall be sufficient to referre the consideration of this your answer to such as be in authoritie who can best consider of both our meanings Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 88. Sect. 1. Touching the Court of faculties I cannot say muche for I haue no great experience of it and lesse knowledge in the lawe notwithstanding The Court of faculties bycause by lawful authoritie it is allowed in this Realme I cannot but reuerently iudge of it for in such matters I thinke it a poynt of modesty to suppose the best and to absteine from cōdemning of that gouernment whiche is allowed as conuenient If there be faultes in the officers they may be corrected T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 2. As for the Court of faculties the corruptions thereof being so cleare that all men see them and so grosse that they which cannot see may grope them M. Doctor answereth that he knoweth not what it meaneth and therefore is moued of modesty to thinke the best of it whiche is but a simple shift For besides that that the Admonition speaketh nothing of it but that the streates and high wayes talke of if there had bin any defense for it it is not to be thought that M. Doctor woulde haue bin so negligent an aduocate as to haue omitted it seeing if he were ignorant he mighte haue had so easily and with so little cost the knowledge of it As for his modesty his bolde asseueration of things which are doubtfull which are false which are altogyther vnlikely which are impossible for him to know doth sufficiently bewray and make so well knowne that no such visard or paynting can serue to make men beleeue that meere modesty shut vp his mouth from speaking for the Court of faculties which hath opened his mouth so wide for the defense of those things wherein as it falleth out he hathe declared himselfe to haue lesse skill and vnderstanding than he hathe of that Court. Io. Whitgifte I haue spoken my cōscience of that Court neither did I cōferre with any to giue me any instructions concerning it And surely as I thought then so do I think now I haue affirmed nothing which I will not stand to except you can conuince me by better reasons than I haue heard any as yet That Court hath the original and authoritie from the Prince it is established and confirmed by Parliament it medleth nothing with that that perteyneth to the office eyther of Byshop or Pastor The principall officers be the Lord Chauncellour and the Archbyshop It maynteyneth the Quéenes prerogatiue in causes ecclesiasticall and was erected the. 25. reare of King Henry the eyght by authoritie of Parliāment to the suppressing and vtter abolishing of the Byshop of Romes iurisdiction It medleth not for any thing that I know with matters that by learning can be proued to be against the word of God and in some poynts it cannot without inconuenience be missed But this is a matter of pollicie and therefore I leaue the further consideration of it to suche as God hathe committed the gouernmente of thys realme vnto to whome it dothe especially apperteyne Of preaching before the administration of the Sacramentes Tract 12. The first Diuision Admonition Now to the second point which concerneth ministration of sacraments In the olde time the word was (t) Math. 3. 12. preach d before they were ministred now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be read Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 89. Sect. 1. 2. 3. The second external note of the true Church of Christ is ministring The second externall note of the church of the Sacraments sincerely you would proue that this Church of England hath not the Sacraments sincerely ministred first by three generall reasons perteyning to both the sacramēts then by certaine abuses which you find seuerally in either of them The first generall reason is this In olde time the worde was preached before the Sacraments were ministred now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be red To proue that the word was preached before the Sacramentes were ministred you alleadge the third of Matthew vers 12. VVhich hath his fanne in his hand and vvill make cleane his flovver and gather his vvheate into his garner but vvill burne vp the chaffe vvith vnquenchable fire I vnderstand not how you can of this place conclude that there
authoritie came into this excommunication yet it followeth not that there were no other And howe often will you stumble at that which you do so sharpely reproue in others which is in making of argumentes of authoritie negatiuely And if you will not graunt this maner of reasoning in the Scripture in matters perteyning to the gouernment of the Church which are all comprehended in the scripture howe woulde you reason of a common storie whiche neyther can nor doth professe to speake all those things which fall into that matter which it wryteth of But what if so be it be proued that Ambrose did not this of his owne authoritie but by the authoritie also of others will you then confesse that he is commended of all those which wryte storyes for so doing and confesse that the vse and practise of the primitiue Church was farre from this that is now For proofe whereof I will giue you a place which Ambrose the best witnesse of this matter hath in one of his Epistles where Epist. 38. he sheweth that as soone as the murther which Theodosius had caused to be done at the Citie of Ambrose falsisyed Thessalonica was heard by by the Bishops of Fraunce came and there was holden a Synode where also Ambrose sayeth that his communicating with Theodosius coulde not absolue him for that as it may appeare the Bishoppes in that Synode had in excommunicating him ordeyned that he shoulde not be absolued vntill such time as he had done repentance whiche he did afterwarde Amb. li ▪ de obitu Theo. with confession of his fault before the Congregation and asking forgiuenesse of it So it appeareth that that which he did he did it by the sentence of the Synode and not of his owne authoritie alone Io. Whitgifte It is not to be read in any storie or other wryter that Ambrose euer sought to haue an Eldership in his Church for if he had so done it is not like but that he might haue obteyned it béeing of that credite and authoritie with the Emperour onely in speaking of the Eldership which consisteth of Priestes onely he sayeth that he cannot tell vpon what occasion it grewe out of vse c. but this is from the purpose Ambrose is commended for excommunicating Theodosius and ▪ for excommunicating him Ambrose excommunicateth alone alone as it may appeare in Theodorete lib. 5. cap. 18. and Sozomene lib. 7. cap 24. For if he had vsed the assistance of other the commendation of his courage and boldnesse had not béene so notorious and famous neyther is it like that the people durst ioyne with their Bishop in such an enterpryse agaynst theyr Emperour and if it had béene done by any councell of Byshops or Synode to what ende and purpose should Ambrose carrie away all the fame and commendation not one worde once mentioned in any storie of any other assistante vnto him in that action But what néede I vse these wordes séeing the historie reported both by Theodorete and Sozomene doe verie plainly testifie the same My argument is not negatiue from authoritie but affirmatiue for all storyes that I haue read do attribute this whole action of excommunicating Theodosius to Ambrose alone Reade the places of Theodoret and Sozomene before mentioned and you shall sée that a man may safely conclude affirmatiuely that Ambrose alone did both excommunicate and absolue him Some of the late wryters that haue occasion to speake of this matter do testifie the same as namely Master Gualter vpon the. 1. Cor. 5. and therefore reproueth Ambrose his fact But bicause you here charge me with so often reasoning from authoritie negatiuely name one vnto mée that I haue so vsed or tell mée why hitherto you haue onely espyed this Remember that you are a diuine of whom it is required to speake truly The Synode dso not excommunicate But say you what if it be proued that Ambrose did not this of his owne authoritie and I say what if it be manifestly layde before your eyes that you haue not rightly Theodosius collected of those places of Ambrose and that they make not for your purpose which you haue here alledged for your proofe First your quotation in the margent is false for Ambrose hath not one worde of that matter in his 38. Epistle but that might be the fault of the Printer That which he sayth is in his 28. Epistle the whiche also you haue falsified for there is not one worde spoken of any excommunication vsed by that Synode agaynst Theodosius onely Ambrose sayth that when the Synode heard of it euerie man lamented it and tooke it in euill part and that he himselfe could not admit him into his Communion nor absolue him from that offence without due repentance And that is his meaning when he sayth Non erat facti tui absolutio in Ambrosij communione Whiche also the wordes following and the scope of the whole Epistle doth declare For in that Epistle Ambrose doth exhorte Theodosius to repentance for that fact and after these wordes that I haue recyted followeth immediately this sentence The grieuousnesse also of the fault shoulde bee Amb. Epist. 28. layde vnto my charge the more if no man shoulde say that the reconciliation of our God were necessarie Art thou ashamed to do that O Emperour that the kingly Prophete Dauid did Whereby it is plaine that Ambrose in his letters signifieth vnto the Emperour that he must first repent him and be reconcyled vnto God before hée may admit him to communicate with him Neyther doth Ambrose say that these Bishops were by and by gathered togither as soone as this murther was heard of neyther was there any such cause of that Synode but they béeing gathered togither vpon other occasions and before the murther was committed as it will appeare if you marke the wordes of Ambrose well newes was brought vnto them of the murther whiche they greatly lamented as I sayde before There is not one worde it that Epistle whereof it can be gathered that eyther that Synode did excommunicate him or ordeyne that he should not be absolued vntill such tyme as he had done repentance how much betwere it for you to repeate the wordes of the Authour but then should you spill your grace in counterfeyting The seconde place of Ambrose lib de obitu Theodos. alledged to proue that Theodosius afterwarde confessed his fault before the congregation and asked forgiuenesse of it is more than néedes for that is not denyed of any man and Theodorete lib. 5. cap. 18. doth set that his submission and confession out in these wordes So in the ende Theod. li. 5. 18. Sainct Ambrose absolued him and the most faythfull Emperour beeing bolde to enter into the Churche prayed not standing or kneeling but lying prostrate vppon the grounde hee vttered these wordes of Dauid My soule cleaueth vnto the dust quicken mee according to thy worde And pulling his heare with his handes and beating his face and
disciplinae seuera misericordia necessaria est nam consilia separationis inania sunt perniti sa atque sacrilega quia impia superba fiunt plus perturbant infirmos bonos quà m corrigunt animosos malos Verily if the contagion of synne hath infected the multitude the seuere mercie of godlie discipline is necessarie for the purpose of separation is both vaine pernicious and sacrilegious bicause they are bothe wicked and presumptuous and doe more trouble the good that be weake than correcte or amend the euill that be stubborne Sainct Augustine doth not here alleadge this for a cause that sufficiente voyces can not be obteyned for excommunication as you pretende but he thinketh Excommunication to be altogether in vayne where the infection is generall But that it maye further appeare the doctrine that I affirme touchyng the authoritie Ex mmunication by bishops proued by the practise of the primi churche of Bishops in excommunicating to be true and to haue bene the vsuall practise of the Churche in the beste tyme and state of it I thoughte good in thys place to adde to my former testimonyes and answeres the authoritie of certaine Councels wherin the practyse of the Churche doth euidentely shew it selfe And fyrst to begynne with the Canons attributed to the Apostles and so ofte alleadged by T. C. In the. 32. or as it is in some bookes the. 33. of those Canons it is thus decréed Can. Apost 32. If any Priest or Deacon bee excommunicated of his Bishop it maye not bee lawfull for any other to receiue him but only the partie that hath separated him except that Bishop dye whiche hath excommunicated him in this Canon power to excommunicate and also to absolue is in plaine wordes committed to the Bishop alone The fifte Canon of the Councell of Nice speaketh of this matter in these wordes Con. Nicae can 5. Concernyng those that are separated from the Communion be they Clearkes or lay menne by the Bishops whiche are in euerie prouince Lette the sentence stande according to the canon whych doth pronounce those that are eiected of some not to be admitted of other But lette it bee examined whether the parties be excommunicated through the indignation or contention or frowardnesse of the Bishop and for this cause that the examination may be duly had let there be in euerie Prouince a Synode celebrated twice in the yeare The wordes be manyfeste and what néede suche pr sion for to examine the dooings of the Bishoppe if hée hadde not authoritie to Excommunicate alone The sixte Canon of the Councell of Antic he is this If any man hath bene excommunicated Con. Anti ch Can. 6. of his owne Bishop lette him not bee receyued of any other before he bee absolued of his owne Bishop or shall defende himselfe in a Synode and the Synode beeing persuaded receyue an other sentence The same decree is to bee obserued agaynst laye men and Priests and Deacons and those that be in the number of the Cleargie Why shoulde the Councell saye ee that is excommunicated of his owne Bishop c. if the authoritie and power of excommunicatyng did not belong to the Bishop alone In the seconde Councell of Carthage Canon 8. it is lykewyse determined That Con. Carthag 2. can 8. if a Priest beyng excommunicated or punished by his owne Bishop shall presume to celebrate he shall be accurssed In the sixte Councell of Carthage Can. 10. the same is affirmed Con. Carthag 6. can 10. In the Councell holden at Sardica Can. 13. or as it is in s me ookes 16. it is in lyke manner decréed That if a De con or a Priest or any of the leargie be excommunicated Con. Sardic Can. 13. of his owne Bishop and shall flee to an other Bishop vnderstanding that he is excommunicated of his owne Bishop he may not giue vnto hym the communion dooyng therby iniurie to his brother and fellowe Bishop By all these Canons and auncient Councels it is euident that from time to time euen in the best and purest state of the church Bishops alone haue had authoritie to excommunicate And least T. C. shoulde here flée to his olde shifte and newly deuised distinction The Bishop did excommunicate alone not as rator of the action that this is attributed to the Bishop bycause he was the chiefe of the action and did moderate it and not bycause the authoritie and power of excommunicatyng remayned in him alone althoughe the manyfest woordes of the Councells ouer ▪ throwe it and it is not to be iustifyed by any learning or good authoritie yet that the Con. Sard. Reader may the better vnderstande the vanitie of it I will recite the. 14. Canon or can 14. as it is in some bookes the. 17. canon of this Councell of Sardica wherein it dothe plainly appeare that the Bishop alone did excommunicate The canon is this If there shall be founde a Bishop prone to anger which ought not to be in such a man and being soone moued against a Priest or a Deacon shall caste him out of the churche or excommunicate him it must be foreseene that he be nor rashly condemned and excommunicated therfore lette him that is cast out haue libertie to complain to the Metropolitane of the same Prouince if he be absent then to the next Bishop c. and that Bishop which hath iustly or vniustly secluded him must be contente to haue his doings examined and his sentence either confirmed or corrected c. What néed these affections be seared in the Bishop if he could not excōmunicate without the consent of a Seigniorie or of the people For the Seigniorie might wel inough withstand this his hastynesse Wherfore it is playne that the Bishop alone may excommunicate But yet to cutte off all further cauilling I woulde haue you to vnderstande that I doo not so giue the authoritie of Excommunicating to the Bishop alone The authoritie of excommunication ascrided to the Byshop not in nite but l ces or to any one manne that I thynke hée maye excommunicate when he lyste withoute iuste cause and due proofe of the same my meanyng is not to make hym bothe accuser aud Iudge I doe not thinke that he oughte to excommunicate any before the partie be orderly and lawfully conuicted of suche crime or crimes as are to be punished by that Censure And that you maye knowe that I affirme nothing herein but the verie same that Saincte Augustine hath affirmed before me The practise in Augustins time and to the intente the worlde maye sée that my opinion in this poynte is not straunge or voyde of sufficiente authoritie I will sette downe his woordes as I fynde them in his booke De vtilitate necessitate poenitentiae and reported of Beda in Augustinus To. 10. ho. 50. his Commentaries vpon the fyrste Corinth 5. Althoughe some thinges be true yet the iudge muste not beleeue them vnlesse they bee sufficiently
beware of this doctrine the whiche vnlesse I proue to be the selfe same with the Papistes in substance let me susteine that punishement that is due vnto them whome I burden charge with forgetfulnes of dutie in this poynt Saunders in that trayterous booke of his wryteth thus That hath deceiued many Saunders the Rep er agree bicause they see kings to be Christians and to rule ouer Christians for they knowe not or at the least they will not knowe what difference there is whether thou rule ouer a Christian in that he is a Christian or in that he is a man For a king ruleth ouer Christian men but not Saunders bicause they bee Christians but bicause they bee men and bicause byshoppss be men in that respect he ruleth also ouer them c. And. T. C. in his Reply pag. 35. writeth on this Pag. 5. in the miast manner saying That the godlye Magistrate is the head of the common wealth but not of the churche meaning that particular churche conteyned in the common wealth whereof he is gouernour and in the same page he saith that the Christian Magistrate is but only a member of that particular churche And pag 145. he sayeth That the Prynce may well bee Pag. 〈◊〉 Sed 1. Monarche immediatly betwene God and the common wealth and not betwene God the church in that common wealth or any singular member in the church and in this place he would haue the ciuill Magistrate no more to intermedle with making Ecclesiasticall lawes and orders than the ecclesiasticall minister should deale with ciuill diuers such nippes and pinches he hath at the ciuill Magistrate speaking no other wyse of hym than of a Turke or a Iewe and giuing him no more authoritie in the church of Christe and ouer Christians than if hee were the great Turke or wicked Nero. But I answere them bothe with the wordes of M. Musculus in his common places Titu de Magistratu Let Ethnickes and infidels whiche liue not in the vnitie of truthe but in the confusion of errour haue their diuers lawes Musculus and magistrates some prophane and some holy whose whole life is prophane whose religion is but ecclesiasticall superstition and in the temple only Christian people are altogether hely and dedicated to the name of Christe not in temples only and ecclesiasticall rites but in their whole life in euery place at al times in all things in al deedes and studies that according to the admonitiō of the Apostle 1. Cor. 10. whether he eate or drinke or whatsoeuer he doth all may be done to the glory of God and Col. 3. whatsoeuer he doth in woorde or in deede hee doe it in the name of the Lorde c. VVherefore that distinction of Ecclesiasticall prophane lawes hath no place in it bicause there is nothing in it that is prophane seeing it is a people holy to the Lorde God and the Magistrate is holy and not prophane his authoritie is holy his lawes are holy his sword is holy a reuenger of the wicked and vngodly whereby he serueth the Lorde being the chiefe lawmaker and iudge our members are the members of Christ and our bodies are the bodies of the holy ghost we are willed to glorifie God not in our spirit onely but in our bodie also 1. Cor. 6. Therefore this be sarre 〈◊〉 authoritie Pap t s giue to the 〈◊〉 in ec 〈◊〉 from the church of Christ that it should be partly holy and partly prophane holy before and prophane behinde lyke vnto an Idoll which sheweth beautifull before and behinde is full of filth and Spyders webbes Againe the Papistes giue to the Christian Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters Potestatem facti and not iuris that is to sée those lawes executed and put in practise that the Pope and his Clergie shall make and to bée as it were their executioner but not to make any lawes or orders in Ecclesiastical matters for so writeth Saunders in his book before named Fol. 64. Although I doe not denye but that the knowledge of a Saunders facte that belongeth to the ecclesiasticall lawe may be committed to kings and Magistrates and before the ecclesiastical cause be determined the king may vse his authoritie to this end that there may be some quiet place prepared where the bishops shall cōsulte and that the bishops be called to the same place at a certein day and that in the meane time while the matter is in determining cōmon peace may be preserued euen among the priests them selues to conclude after the cause be determined and iudged by the priests the king may punishe him with the sworde which he carieth not in vaine or by some other corporall punishmēt which shal refuse to obey the sentence of the priests Therfore we do not deny but that kings haue something to do both before and at and after the iudgements of the bishops but in the office of iudging they haue no more to do than other priuate persons for they may well giue councell and declare what they thinke but they may not determine or define what Gods lawes or the ecclesiastical lawe doth require And doth not T. C. in this place affirme the Potestas facti not iuris ascribed to the magistrates same onely herein he séemeth something to differ y t if the ecclesiastical gouernours shall make any orders vnmeete the magistrate may driue them to better But what if they saye they be méete will stand to it as you do now in this fonde platforme will they not crye out vpon the magistrate saye that he is a persecutour a mainteiner of an vnlawfull authoritie of that which is against the glorie of God if he withstande thē as the authours of the seconde Admonition do in playne termes saying For though the orders be and ought to be drawen out of the booke of God yet it is her Maiestie that by her princely 2. Admonit pag. 60. authoritie should see euery of these thyngs put in practise and punyshe those that neglect them making lawes therefore for the churche may keepe those orders but neuer in peace except the comfortable and blessed assistance of the states and gouernours imcke in to see them in their countreis and vsed for otherwyse the church maye and must keepe Gods orders but alwaies in troubles and persecution which is like to light vpon vs except a reformation of religion or a direct prouiso for vs bee made for surely only this is God his order and ought to be vsed in his churche so that in conscience we are forced to speake for it and to vse it and in conscience and in reuerence of God we are forced to speake as we do of that reformation which we nowe vse not so much for ought else as to set out the deformities thereof that we might thinke vpon the amending of them M. Musculus in the booke and title before recited setteth out this Popish
Sozom. lib. 1. cap. 17 tom con to the Fathers of the Nicene Councell and to the Ecclesiasticall persons there gathered whiche he dothe also permitte the Byshops Elders and Deacons of Churches to do (*) A great ouersight eyther by correcting or adding or making newe if neede be And by the continuall practise of the Churche in the tyme of Christian Emperours whiche alwayes permitted vnto the ministers assembled in councels ▪ as well the determination of controuersies whiche rose as the making or the abolishing of needefull or hurtfull ceremonies as the ease requyred Also by the Emperours epistle in the first action of the councell of Constantinople where by the epistle of the Emperour it appeareth that it was the manner of the Emperours to confirme the ordināces which were made by the ministers and to see them kept Io. Whitgifte I learne in Eusebius Lib. 1. de vita Constan. that Constantinus is called as it were Euseb. lib. 1. de vita Const. Constantinus his rule in ecclesiasticall matters a generall Bishop appoynted of God that he also called Synodes and placed the moderator in them I learne in that seconde Booke that he made lawes and constitutions perteyning to holynesse towardes God and to the appoynting of meete thinges for the Churches of God that there shoulde be no Images worshipped none erected and set vp no enchauntmentes vsed or so thsayinges And I learne in that same Epistle Lib. 2. by you quoted that Constantinus prescribed to Eusebius what he shoulde do and what Epist. ad Eusel he should will others to do in buylding and repayring of Church ▪ s or enlarging of them neyther is there mention made of anyother Lawes or constitutions in that Epistle 〈◊〉 grosse ouersight of T. C. and surely I beleeue that those woordes whiche Constantinus speaketh to Eusebius of buylding or repayring or enlarging Churches buylded of stone you vnderstande of making restoring or enlarging of Ecclesiasticall orders and Lawes whiche if you do as your woordes playnely signifie then vnderstande you not the place abuse your Reader and caste away an argument For Constantinus woordes to Eusebius be thesc Howe hitherto by that wicked sentence and tyrannie persecuting Lib. 2. Eus. de vita Con lant Epist. ad Eus. the Ministers of our Sauiour the buyldinges of the Churches are decayed and weakened thorough negligence or soulde and made vyle for feare of imminent daunger I knowe and am fully perswaded but nowe libertie beyng restored and that Dragon thorough the prouidence of God and our ministerie banished from the gouernment of the common wealth I thinke Gods power is made manifest to all and that those whiche haue fallen into certayne sinnes eyther for feare or thorough vnbeleefe and nowe knowe the truthe Eusthius gouernour of me churches than one will returne agayne to the true and right waye of lyfe therefore admonishe all Churches whiche thou doest gouerne or any other Churches vnder the gouernment of other Bishops Priestes or Deacons that they be diligent aboute the buyldyng of theyr Churches and that they eyther repayre suche as stande still or enlarge them or if necessitie requyre buylde them newe and thou thy selfe or other for thee may requyre of the gouernours and Magistrates in the prouinces those thinges that be necessarie It is playne that Constantine in these woordes speaketh onely of materiall Churches and therefore you are greatly deceyued But if it were as you say do you not sée howe it maketh agaynst The place agaynst 〈◊〉 your selfe for what dothe more plainely appeare in that you saye he permitteth this vnto the Bishops c. than that the authoritie was in him and they were but his vicegerentes The continuall practise of Christian Churches in the tyme of Christian Magistrates Christian Princes haue exercised su authoritie in ecclesiastical cases Sozomenus lib. 1. cap. 17. before the vsurpation of the Bishop of Rome hath bene to giue to Christian Princes supreme authoritie in making Ecclesiasticall orders and lawes yea and that whiche is more in deciding of matters of religion euen in the chiefe and principall poyntes And that booke and chapter of Sozomene by you quoted declareth the same For the Bishops that came to the Councell of Nyce committed the hearing determining of theyr controuersies to the Emperour which argueth that it was then a common and vndoubted opinion receyued among them that the Emperour had authoritie to iudge in their causes and although the Emperour of modestie refused so to do saying that it was not meete for them so to vse themselues that they shoulde be iudged of other yet I am sure you will not make this a rule to exempt the Cleargie from the iurisdiction of the Ciuill Magistrate vnlesse you will take holde with the Pope and saie VVe muste iudge all and be iudged of none ▪ This modestie in Constantinus in refusing to heare the matters in controuersis among the Bishops excepted there is nothing in that firste booke and 17 ▪ chapter of Sozomene that can by any meanes serue your turne If you say that he woulde not determine any thing agaynst Arius heresie but A wise prince will take the aduise of the learned in discussing of weighty matters committed the same to the Synode and Councell of Nice I answere that therein be nothing at all abridged his authoritie ▪ but shewed his wisedome and godly care For it is the parte of a wise and godly Prince to haue such weightie matters of doctrine beyng in controuersie decreed and determined by suche as for their authoritie wisedome and learning are moste fitte to entreate of suche matters But alas how doth this argument follow Constantinus called the Councell of Nice to determine certayne matters of religion in controuersie therefore he had no authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall orders and lawes What Councell of Constantinople was that if you meane the. 5. beyng celebrated Iustinian made many Ecclesiasticall lawes Anno. 549. in the tyme of Iustinianus it is a very late testimonie for this cause the Bishops of Rome beyng then in great authoritie and yet manifest it is that no Emperour made mo Ecclesiasticall lawes bothe concerning matters of order and also of doctrine than did the Emperour Iustinianus as may be séene in the Code vnder these Titles De summa trinitate fide Catholica De sacrosanctis Ecclesijs de Episcopis Clericis de Haereticis Manichaeis Samaritanis ne sanctum Baptisma iteretur de statuis imaginibus and a number such like If you meane the sixth Councell of Constantinople as it lyke you do then are you without my compasse for that Councell was Anno. 681. and who will alleage Constantinus ▪ rogon ▪ gouerned the councell of Constantinople on 681. any authoritie of that corrupt tyme for any suche matter in controuersie and yet it is certayne that Constantinus the Emperoure did gouerne that Councell and that the Bishops on bothe sides did pleade before him at
his appoyntment himselfe sitting as moderator and this was in a matter of fayth But be it as you say though I can finde no suche thing in the firste Action of that Councell dothe it followe that bycause Emperours cōfirmed ordinaunces that were made in Synodes and Councelles therefore they haue no authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall lawes surely I vnderstande not howe you can make any suche conclusion for as I sayde before it is a poynt of greate wisedome and singular care to prouide that weightie matters in controuersie be determined with great deliberation and aduise of suche as be most skilfull in them But this can be no argument to proue that Ciuill Magistrates may make no orders in the Churche or Ecclesiasticall Lawes for euen those orders and lawes whiche were made in suche Councels were made by the authoritie of the Emperour as dothe very well appeare in the same Councels for when the matters were concluded in the Councell of Chalcedon the Bishops brust out into these voyces It is a true and a right iudgement long lyfe to the Senate many Conc. Chalced ▪ Euagr lib. 2. cap. 4. yeares to the Emperour Whereby it appeareth that the chiefe authoritie in suche Councels was giuen to the Emperour and that he was esteemed as the chiefe iudge which appeareth also at large in the seconde booke of Euagrius The. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2. The practise of this he mighte haue also moste playnely seene in Ambrose who woulde by 5. Lib. epist. 2. no meanes suffer that the causes of the Churches should be debated in the Princes consistorie or Another reason of the Papists agaynst the authoritie of the ciuil magistrate courte but would haue them handled in the Churche by those that had the gouernment of the Churche and therefore excuseth himselfe to the Emperour Ualentiman for that beyng conuented to answere of the church matters vnto the ciuill courte he came not Io. Whitgifte This is an other of M. Hardinges reasons agaynst the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall matters and he vsed it against the Apologie but the answere made to the same in the defense of the Apologie by that reuerende Father 6. Parte 14. Chap. 5. Diuision the Bishop of Sarisburie is learned and true the summe whereof is this The Emperour Ualentinian at that tyme when Ambrose wrote this Epistle vnto him was very yong he was not yet baptized he knewe not the principles of Christes Why Ambrose refused to come at the Emperours commaundement Religion he was an Arian Heretike he woulde haue thruste out the Christians and placed Heretikes in their Churches he thought it was lawfull for him to do what him listed c. For this cause Ambrose refused him to be his iudge so that he did not mislike his authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall but onely his wilfull ignorance and his tyrannie for that he knewe his iudgement was corrupted and not indifferent And if you had marked the beginning of his Epistle you might haue perceyued that he alleageth for his chiefe defense and excuse for not appearing the decrée of Theodosius the Father of Ualentinian so that in not comming or appearing at the Emperours summon he did but challenge the priuiledge graunted before of godly Emperours vnto the Cleargie And it is euident that the learned and auncient Fathers haue committed the The auncient Fathers haue committed the deciding of controuersies to Emperours deciding of matters of controuersie to Emperours as it appeareth in Athanasius his seconde Apologie where he committing himselfe and his cause to the Emperour sayeth thus VVe require that the Emperours moste godly and most religious Maiestie may haue the hearyng of the same matter before whome we may open both our churches right and also our owne for we hope that his godlinesse vnderstanding our reasons will Athanasius Apol. 2. neuer condemne vs. Likewise S. Augustine Contra Epist Parme. Lib. 1. speakyng to the Donatistes August contra epist. Parmen lib. 1. sayeth Is it not lawfull for the Emperour or his deputie to giue sentence in a matter of religion wherefore then went your Ambassadoures to the Emperour why made they him iudge of their cause Sozomene Lib. 4. Cap. 16. sayeth that the Emperour commaunded that tenne Bishops Sozom. lib. 4. 16. of the East and ten of the VVeste chosen by the Councell shoulde repayre to his courte and open to him the decrees of the Councell that he might not only consider whether they were agreed according to the Scriptures but that he might further determine and conclude what were best to be done Socrates Lib. 5. Cap. 10. sayeth that Theodosius the Emperour for the appeasing Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 10. of contention cōmaunded an assemblie of Bishops best learned to appeare before him and eche parte to write a confession of their faith and religion the which being done at a day appointed they came to the Courte and deliuered vp their writinges to the Emperour who after earnest praiers made perusing the writings that were deliuered rent in pieces the confessions made by the Arians and Eunomians and allowed onely and receyued the confession of the Catholikes The practise therefore of the authoritie of Princes in Ecclesiasticall matters euen in determining and iudging controuersies in Religion you might haue learned by these examples in Ambrose tyme. The. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. vlt. And by whome can the matters and orders of the Churche be better ordeyned than by the ministers of the Churche And if that be a good reason of M. Doctor in the fortie and seuenth Page that the Bishops ought therefore to ordeyne ministers bycause they are best able to iudge An other argu ment of the Papistes to the same purpose of the learning and abilitie of those which are the fittest it is also as good reason that therefore the ministers and gouernours of the Churche should appoynt and decree of suche ceremonies and orders as perteyne to the churche for bycause it is to be supposed that they can beste iudge of those matters bestowing their studies that wayes and further best vnderstanding the state of the church aboute the which they are wholly occupied Io. Whitgifte This also is a reason of M. Hardinges in the same cause but it onely preueth that it is moste conuenient and necessarie that Bishops and ministers of the Church The debating and deciding of matters in religion by bishops doth not derogate from the princes authoritie whyle they he learned and godly may haue the debating and deciding of matters in religion neyther dothe this derogate any thing from the authoritie of the Prince in the same causes we sée that matters in lawe are determined by iudges lawyers so be other ciuill matters by wise and prudent officers in like manner and yet is not the authoritie of the Prince thereby abridged but what if all the ministers of the Churche or moste of them be corrupt and vngodly
deede to be iudged not to iudge he came to worke the worke of our redemption not to decide controuersies touching landes and possessions But will you therfore take from Christian men authoritie to iudge for this exāple of Christ can no more be applied to Bishops than it may be to kings bicause the doings of Christ is a patterne for all Christians and yet Christians may iudge matters and decide controuersies amongst their brethren Looke 1. Cor. 6. The Anabaptists vse this text for one Argument of the Anabaptistes confuted of their reasons to condemne magistratie among Christians therfore a very learned and late writer in his exposition of this place writeth thus Hinc colligitur quantopere insaniant qui ex hoc loco magistratum inter Christianos damnant nam Christus non argumentatur à re ipsa tanquà m profana sit sed à vocatione sua quòd missus sit in alium finem tametsi res erat per se satis sancta pia Hereof may it be gathered hovv greatly they dote vvhich condemne magistrates amongst Christians by this place for Christe doth not reason of the thing it selfe as though it vvere profane but of his ovvne vocation bicause he vvas sent to an other ende although the thing of it selfe is holy and good T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 4. vlt. And as for the other place of Luke touching our sauiour Christes refusall to deuide the inheritaunce 12. Luke betwene the brethren it is moste aptly alleaged to this purpose For although our sauiour Christ doth not there take away from men authoritie to iudge yet he sheweth thereby sufficiently that it belongeth not vnto the ministers of the worde to entermeddle in y e iudgement of ciuil causes For our sauiour Christ framed that answere hauing respect to the boundes of his calling For as he beyng minister of the Gospell did all those things which were perteyning to his ministerie so by refusing this office of iudgement in ciuill causes he gaue to vnderstand that it did not appertayne vnto the compasse of that office which he exercised which was y e ministerie And therefore it is altogether out of season that M. Doctor here alleageth that y e Anabaptistes vse this reason to proue that Christians may not haue magistrates For howe doth this follow that bycause this place of S. Luke proueth not that we ought to haue no Christian magistrates that therfore it proueth not that the minister should be no magistrate as if there could be no ciuill magistrates onlesse ministers of the worde were And the place which he alleageth out of the learned man doth not only not make any thing for him but doth quite ouerthrow his cause For he sayth that our sauiour Christ did not refuse this as a thing in it selfe vnlawfull but bycause it did not agree with his vocation Now the vocation of our sauiour Christ was to be a minister of the Gospell therefore it doth not agree with the vocation of a minister of the gospell to iudge or to intermedle in ciuill gouernment And if M. Doctor had bene so studious of M. Caluins workes as by his often 4. Lib. Inscit 11. cap. allegation of him he would make the world beleue he might haue redde in him this sentence cited for this purpose to proue that the ministers haue not to do in ciuill thinges Io. Whitgifte Neyther do you héere replie to my Answere for I tolde you that Christ came to be iudged not to iudge in matters of lands and possessions I tolde you likewise that this example of Christ perteyneth no more to Bishops than it dothe to Kings and therefore can no fitlyer be by you applied agaynst Bishops than by the Anabaptistes agaynst Christian Magistrates To all this in effect you haue sayde nothing Your owne collection is soone answered Fyrst no man giueth to Bishops authoritie to iudge in matters of inheritance for suche controuersies are to be decided by lawe whiche hath other Iudges appoynted for it Secondly Christ spake this to declare that his kingdome was not of this worlde but of the worlde to come not earthly but heauenly not temporall but eternall and therefore he spake it touching his owne person onely and not as a rule perteyning to other Christians as the Anabaptists feyne Thirdly the authoritie in ciuill matters that is committed to ministers in Ciuill offices in our ministers tende to y e gouernment of the church this Churche is committed vnto them by the Prince for the better gouernment of the Churche and the fuller satisfying of their duetie consisting for the moste parte onely in punishing and correcting sinne And lastly it is not made a thing incident to the ministerie or as parte of that office but it is added as profitable conuenient and necessarie for the present state of the Churche and fuller accomplishing of the ministers duetie I haue tolde you in my Answere to the Admonition that this example of Christ dothe no more perteyne vnto Bishops than to other Christians whiche béeing true and vnconfuted by you then dothe it followe that the Anabaptistes maye aswell alleage it agaynst other Christians as you maye doe agaynst Bishops or Ministers The learned mans interpretation dothe well agrée with my cause for Christ refused it bicause he came to be iudged and to suffer death for the redemption of the world which is the vocation that this learned man speaketh of and is onely proper to Christ. I denie not but that M. Caluine may apply this texte to that purpose but M. Caluine dothe expounde him selfe writing vpon this same place when he saythe that euery man must respect his owne vocation quid illi sit aptum and what is meete for it Nowe the ciuill authoritie that Ecclesiasticall persons haue in this Churche is meete for theer vocation And therefore M. Caluine speaketh nothing agaynst it In the same booke chapter he alleageth these words of Bernarde ▪ whiche he writeth to Pope Eugenius of this matter Ergo in criminibus non in possessionibus potestas vestra c. VVherefore your power is in offences not in possessions And this conclusion he bringeth in vpon the wordes of S. Luke chapter 12. I would not as I sayde before haue Bishops Iudges in controuersies of enheritance Wherein the Bishops authoritie consisteth I doe not affirme that they may in the right of their ministerie chalenge any ciuill authoritie as the Bishop of Rome dothe But forasmuche as the authoritie is in Criminibus in offences as Bernarde sayth therfore if it please the Prince to giue it them they may lawfully execute so muche authoritie ciuill as shall further and helpe them in suppressing sinne And this is agaynst nothing that M. Caluine hathe sayde For M. Caluine and other learned wryters of this age doe vse this place of S. Luke and suche like agaynst the vsurpation of Romishe Bishops chalenging suche authoritie in ciuill matters as due vnto them Iure diuino and so
by the ciuill magistrate I graunt the ministers haue also to punish vice for as the ciuill magistrates punishe lighter faultes with some penaltie of monie or losse of member so the church and the minister especially with the church hath to punishe faultes by reprehensions and rebukes And as the ciuill magistrate punisheth greater faultes by death so the minister with other which haue interest hath with y e sworde of excommunication power to kill those which be rebellious and to cut them from the churche as the other doth from the common wealth And if it be a helpe to the ministers office that he shoulde meddle with ciuill punishments why should it not be a help vnto the Magistrates office that he should excommunicate and do other thinges perteyning to the Ecclesiasticall discipline Io. Whitgifte In what woordes doth M. Caluine confute it or by what reason you cut of the matter very shorte in that booke and chapt of his Instit. which you haue quoted in the margent there is no such reason either alleaged or confuted Only in the. 9. Section he speaketh agaynst the temporall dominion of the Popish Bishops whiche deriue their excessiue power not from the ciuill Magistrate but fcō the Pope cloking it with this pretence that it is an ornament and beutie to the kingdome of Christ which is far from any thing alleaged by me why it is conuenient that our Bishops haue ciuill authoritie committed vnto them I would gladly heare a reason either of the Scripture or any other authenticall It is not so lawfull for the Prince to preach c. as for a minister to vse corporall punishment wryter why it should be as lawfull for a ciuill Magistrate to preache minister the Sacraments and excōmunicate as for the Ecclesiasticall minister to vse corporall punishment it was lawfull for Samuell to kill Agag being the office of Saule but it was not lawfull for Saule to offer vp sacrifices that being the office of Samuell The office and function of a mynister is not in his owne power to commit to whom he list but the office of the ciuill Magistrate may be cōmitted to whom soeuer it shal 1. Sam. 15. please him best to like of and to thinke most fitte for gouernment 1. Sam. 3. True it is that excōmunication is an Ecclesiastical censure which the mynister Excommunication not the only punishment vsed in the Church Gualter may exercise if the state of the Church will beare it for reprehension is a discipline lawfull for euery Christian to vse but it is not the onely censure for the ciuill magistrate may appoynt other as shall be to the state of the Church moste conuenient You know what M. Gualter sayeth 1. Cor. 5. As the Romaine Bishops vpon this place and such like haue grounded their excommunication which is the most effectuall instrument of their tyrannie whereby they haue cruelly vexed not onely priuate men but also Kinges and Emperours and haue bene the causes of ciuill warres and sedition euen so the Anabaptists whilest they perswade themselues that there can be no discipline without excōmunication they trouble the churches euery where and make thēselues laughing stockes to all the world c. Let euery church follovve that kinde of discipline vvhich is most meete for the countrie vvherein they liue and vvhich may be moste commodious in respect of time and place and let no man here rashly prescribe vnto an other or seeke to binde all men to one and the same forme Of old time there hath bene other kinde of punishments than either reprehensiōs or excōmunication as it may appeare euen in that Canon attributed to the Apostles which you haue before rehearsed where the punishment appoynted is depriuation as it is also in the most of the other Canons and in diuerse other councels You say that if it be a helpe to the ministers office that he should meddle with the ciuill punishmēts why should it not be a helpe to the magistrates office that he should excommunicate c. The answere is soone made The Magistrate may do that by corporall punishment that the minister can not do by Ecclesiasticall discipline neither is there any man so desperate whom the magistrate by his authoritie may not brydle but such is y e time now that fewe regarde the greatest censures of the Church Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 2. And whereas M. Doctor sayeth they may not be husband men craftes men c. and yet may haue ciuill offices I thinke far otherwise that although neyther be lawfull yet the one were more tollerable than the other For seing after the ministerie of the worde there is no calling vnder the sunne weightier which requireth greater exercise of the minde than the office-of the magistrate it is agaynst all reason to lay this heauie burthen vpon a man that is already loden and hath as much as he is able to beare It were more equall if they will needes adde vnto the weight of this burthen to laye some lighter charge of exercising a handy crafte than to breake his backe with the charge of a ciuill Magistrate Io. Whitgifte These wdrldly affayres of husbandrie occupations c. must néedes withdrawe him from his booke so make him more vnapt to do his dutie and they be not at all incident to his office nor méete for his calling but the Ciuill offices that I speake of be both méete for his calling perteyning to discipline and helpes to his office function as I haue sayde wherefore they be so farre from breaking his backe that they make the rest of his burthen a great deale the easier Chap. 3. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 3. And whereas in the pollicie of M. Doctor it seemeth a furtherance to the Gospell to ioyne these togither which was also the pollicie of the Idolaters as I haue before declared in the wisedome of God it hath seemed farre otherwise which I doubt not did therfore separate the ministerie from this pompe which is commendable in the ciuill magistrate least the efficacie and power of the simplicitie of the worde of God and of the ministerie should be obscured whilest men would attribute the conuersion of soules vnto the gospell due vnto the worde and to the spirite of God to these glorious shewes And least whilest the Minister haue the word in one hande and the swordem the other men should not be able to iudge so well in their consciences ▪ of the mightie operation of the worde of God in them For they might doubte with themselues whether these are and outwarde shewe of the minister caried some stroke with them in beleuing the worde Io. Whitgifte One of your reasons conteyned in this place in effect is this If ministers shoulde enioy ciuill functions men would attribute the conuersion of soules vnto these shewes but that ought they not to do therefore c. I denie your Maior as a fonde and vaine imagination
An other reason you frame on this sorte If the mynister haue both ciuill and Ecclesiasticall power ▪ men should not be able to iudge in their consciences of the mightie operation of the worde of God in them for they might doubt whether the feare of the outward shewe of the minister carried The Repliers argument siniteth as well at the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 magistrate as at the Ecclesiasticall some stroke with them c. This is as vayne an imagination as is the other and they both may as aptly be applied agaynst the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate as agaynst the ciuill iurisdiction of the minister yea in déede they serue to the ouerthrow of all kinde of ciuill punishment For if the Magistrate make sharpe lawes for comming to the Churche hearing the woorde of God contemning religion and such like men that by such meanes are driuen to heare the woorde of God c. so at the length conuerted may doubt whether the woorde hath wrought this in them or the feare of outwarde punishment Do you not marke how he still smiteth at the Magistrate Percey te you not how neare he approcheth to the opinion of the Anabaptistes who would haue no kinde of discipline in the Church but only excommunication God vseth corporall punishment as a meanes to saluation But to Answere you briefly God vseth corporall punishments as a meanes to driue ▪ euen the elect to the hearing of the worde of God to honestie of lyfe He vseth it also to brydle the wicked that by their exāples other men might learne to beware and that they themselues also may be kepte in order And no man that is truly conuerted by the preaching of the woorde can doubt but that God by the working of his spirite thorough the ministerie of his woorde hath wrought that good in him though by externall meanes as feare of punishment and such lyke he was first as it were enforced to heare the woorde and to kéepe himselfe in order In deede if these reasons of yours were of any force the Magistrate might put vp his sworde especially in Ecclesiasticall matters and so might the minister lay aside his authoritie also least any thing be ascribed there vnto Your glaunce that this was also the pollicy of the Idolaters though you haue no where proued it yet haue I answered it before Chap. 3. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. vlt. But M. Doctor sayth that ciuill offices are not to be counted worldly affayres but heauenly and spirituall ▪ it is so and yet when they are compared with the Ecclesiasticall offices they may be called secular offices for so much as they to gether with the care of religion procure and prouide for the things whereby we may quietly and commodiously liue here where the Ecclesiasticall offices are immediatly and onely bente to procure the glory of God and the saluation of men and in that signification of heauenly and spirituall which you take marchandise husbandry and the handycrafte be heauenly and spirituall although not in the same degree All lawfull callinges came from God and returne to him agayne that is he is both author of them and they ought to be referred to his glory so that if the mynister may exercise all things which be heauenly and spirituall you may as well bryng him downe to the plough as promote him to the court Io. Whitgifte I call them Ecclesiasticall bycause they perteyne to the inwarde man to the The cluill iurisdiction now vsed is in some respect ecclesiasticall reformation of manners to the punishment of sinne to the mayntenance of Religion to the quietnesse of the Churche and good order in the same so do not all cyuill offices much lesse husbandry marchandise handycraftes goyng to the plough and suche lyke whiche onely perteyne to the body and to this lyfe not beyng referred to the endes that I haue before named Wherefore here your wittes fayled you and I looke for a better Answere Chap. 3. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Lin. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 M. Doctor sayth that the office of a commissioner is Ecclesiasticall bycause it handleth Ecclesiasticall causes I maruell that he is so ignorant that he can not put a difference betwene giuing iudiciail sentences and appoynting bodely punishments whiche are meere ciuill and betweene the vnderstanding the truth of euery such cause according as the worde of God defineth of it which is a thing common as well vnto the magistrate as vnto the mynister wherein the mynister bycause he ought to be most ready ought if neede be consulted with Io. Whitgifte Surely I thinke you scarse vnderstande your selfe for if the causes be Ecclesiasticall why may not the punishment by the Magistrate appoynted vnto them be executed by Ecclesiasticall persons hauing authoritie from the Prince by commission so to do and if the Ecclesiasticall person may giue sentence and iudgement in these Ecclesiastical causes why may he not consent also to the punishments appointed for the same I do not meane he should be the Iaylor or tormentor himselfe but to iudge the person offending worthy of this or that kinde of punishment and to giue sentence of the crime that he hath committed to determine of the cause that is called into iudgement Chap. 3. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 1. An other of M. Doctors reasons is that as kinges do serue Christe by makyng lawes for him so Bishops do serue Christe by executyng lawes for him as though it perteyned not vnto the Magistrates to execute lawes as well as to make them and as if the magistrate were not therefore called a speaking lawe bycause by executing them he dothe cause the lawes after a fashion to speake This is to deuide the stake of the magistrate betweene him and the Bishop yea to gyue the Byshop the best parte of it For we know that with vs the people be at making of the lawes which may not meddle with the execution of them And if M. Doctor say that he meaneth not hereby to shut the Prince from executing the lawes then as his similitude when it is at the best proueth nothing so by this meanes it halts downe right and is no similitude Io. Whitgifte The Prince executeth his lawes by himselfe he also executeth them by other to whome he hath giuen that authoritie for the fuller and better execution of them in this number are the Bishops for the authoritie they haue in suche matters they haue from the Prince and therefore their executing of it is not to deuide stake with the Cyuill Magistrate but to do good seruice both to God and the Magistrate Chap. 3. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 217. Sect 1. 2. What say you to Elye and Samuell were they not both Priests Samuell priest iudge and iudges what office did the Prophete Elias execute when he killed the false prophets of Baal 1. Reg. 18. or Christ when he whipt the
T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 2. As for Elias killing the false Prophetes and our Sauiour Christs whippyng out of the temple it is straunge that M. Doctor will alledge them as thinges to be followed when he may as well teach that we may call for fire from heauen as Elias did and beyng demaunded answere nothyng as our Sauiour did as to followe these actions whiche are moste singular and extraordinarie And if these one or two examples be enough to breake the order that God hath sette by this a man may proue that the mynisters may be fishers and tente makers bycause Peter and Paule beyng ministers did fishe and make tents And truely these are not so extraordinary and from the generall rule as the other be And it was permitted in a Councell that rather than a minister should haue two benefices he might labour with his handes to supply his wante Tom. 〈◊〉 Nic 〈◊〉 1 withall Io. Whitgifte Yet by these examples especially by the examples of Christ it may appeare that Ecclesiasticall persons haue vsed corporall punishments which you call ciuill I knowe examples make no rule and therfore al your argumentes out of the scriptures alleadged before to proue that the election of ministers ought to be popular receyue the same answere that you giue to me in this place and yet examples if they be not agaynst any commaundement or good order established declare what hath bene and what vppon the lyke occasions may be done but not what of necessitie ought to be doone If you can proue any order of God sette downe that an Ecclesiasticall person may by no meanes exercise any ciuill offices I yelde vnto you if you can not do it then do I alledge no examples tending to the breakyng of any order that God hath set I knowe not why the ministers of the Gospell may not do as Peter Paule did vpon the lyke occasion And therfore your alledging of y e corrupt Councel of Nice which not withstanding you haue not 〈◊〉 alleaged is not necess ie I haue spoken of that Canon before and therfore will not trouble the Reader with it nowe being from this purpose Chap. 3. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 2. 3. When Sainct Paule willed Tim. that he shoulde not receyue an accusation agaynst an elder vnder two or three witnesses he did committe nothing lesse than any ciuill office vnto him And M. Doctor himselfe hathe alleadged it before as a thing incident to the office of a Byshop and therefore he doth forget himselfe maruellously now that maketh this a ciuill office And doth M. Doctor thinke that S. Paule made magistrates Or is he of that iudgemente that the Church in the time of persecution may make ciuill officers But it is true that he that is once ouer the shoes sticketh not to runne ouer his bootes Io. Whitgifte I alleadged it before to proue the superioritie of Bishops ouer other ministers The iur tion of Timothie in some respect ciuill Now I do alledge it to proue that the same byshops may exercise that iurisdiction which you call ciuill for in that the iudgement of such causes were committed vnto him it argueth his superioritie in that there is named accusers and witnesses it declareth a kind of eiuil iurisdiction to the which those words do perteine So that Timothie being an ecclesiastical person had prescribed vnto him that kind of proceeding to iudgement that may be called ciuill Chap. 3. the. 12. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Page 218. Sect. 1. It pleaseth you to say that it is against Gods worde for Byshops to haue prisons but your margent is very barren of proofes for you haue not quoted one place of scripture to proue it onely you say that Popish Eugenius did first bring them in whiche is a very slender argument to proue them to be against the word of God Did not Peter punish Ananias and Saphira very streightly for their dissimulation Surely farre more greeuously than if he had put them in prison and yet their offence was not against any ordinarie law made in the Churche or common weale But where reade you that Eugenius did first inuent them T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. vlt. And last of all to proue that byshops may haue prisons he citeth Peter which punished Ananias and Saphira with death M. Doctor muste vnderstande that thys was 〈◊〉 power and was done by vertue of that function whyche Sayncte Paule calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Cor. 12. whiche is one of those functions that the Lorde placeth in hys Churche for a tyme. But is thys a good argumente Bycause Saincte Peter punished with the worde therfore the minister may punishe with the sword And bicause Sainct Peter didde so once therfore the Bishop may doe so alwaye And bycause Sainct Peter did that whiche appertayneth to no ciuill magistrate ▪ and whyche no ciuill magistrate by any meanes maye or can doe therfore the minister maye doe that whyche apperteyneth vnto the Ciuill magistrate For if there hadde bin a ciuill magistrate the same coulde not haue punished this faulte of dissimulation whiche was not knowne nor declared it selfe by anye outewarde action So that if this example proue any thing it proueth that the minister may doe that no man may doe but the Lorde onely whyche is to punishe faultes that are hidde and vnknowne If this bee ignorance it is very grosse and if it be against knowledge it is more daungerous I haue determined with my selfe to leaue vnto M. Doctor his outcryes and declamations and if I shoulde haue vsed them as often as he giueth occasion there woulde be no ende of writing The Lorde giue M. Doctor eyther better knowledge or better conscience Io. Whitgifte I vse this example of Peter to shewe that is not agaynst Gods worde for the ministers Ministers may vse temporall punishment of the Gospell to punishe any by imprisonmente For Peter béeing a minister of the Gospell dyd punyshe with death whiche is muche more than to imprison and as Peter did this lawfully by an extraordinarie power so maye the ministers of the woorde punishe by imprisonmente whiche is a farre lesse kynde of punishment beyng lawfully therevnto authorised by the ciuill Magistrate accordyng to the orders of the common wealth and state of the Churche Therfore my reason is this Peter punished with temporall punishement being a minister of the worde and he dyd nothing repugnant to his vocation therfore it is not repugnant to the office of a minister of the worde to punishe with temporall punishment Agayne Peter punished with death therfore the minister maye punishe with imprisonment I speake de facto of the deede done not de modo of the maner of doing is And I doubte not but that séeing it was lawfull for Peter to kill by an especiall and extraordinarie power so it may be lawfull for the minister of the word to imprison by an vsuall and ordinarie power And so are all your
Collections made in vaine and framed according to your owne pleasure not so my meaning If you haue done it of ignorance you are to be excused if of set purpose you are to be blamed And wheras you say that M. Doctor must vnderstand that this was ecclesiastical powers Peters punishing of Ananias was by ciuill iurisdiction ▪ Beza de Haeret à Magist. puniendis I say on the other side that you must vnderstand that this was not ecclesiasticall but méere ciuill which you might haue learned of M. Beza in diuers places of his booke de Haereticis à Magistratu pun For thus he writeth Cedò igitur Christus quo iure flagellum his corripuit quo iure Petrus Ananiam Sapbiram occidit quo iure Paulus Elymam excaecauit ▪ Num ecclesiastici ministerij minimè profectò nisi iurisdictiones confundas Ergo ciuilis Magistratus iure Nihil enim est tertium Tell me therefore by what lawe did Christ take the whip in hand twise by what law did Peter kill Ananias and Saphira by what right did Paule strike Elymas with blindnesse did they those things by the right of the ecclesiasticall ministerie no truly except you will confound iurisdictions They did it therefore by the right of ciuill magistracie for ther is no meane And to the same purpose doth he speake sundry times in that booke What outcries I haue vsed or declamations which you haue not in ample manner requited adding to the same al opprobrious kind of speaches and iesting taunts that you could deuise let the indifferent Reader iudge wherfore I hartely wish vnto you both better knowledge and better conscience Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 171. Sect. 1. Unto M. Doctor asking where it appeareth that Pope Eugensus brought in prisons into the Church as also vnto the three or fower such like demands ▪ which he maketh in this booke the authours of the Admonition answer at once that this and the other are found in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles Io. Whitgifte What authors doe they alleadge for them for bothe these be but very late writers and this is a matter of historie and therfore requireth some greate antiquitie nerer vnto the tyme of Eugenius who liued Anno. 650. but you knowe verie well that our Bishops claim not this authoritie by any constitution or canon of the Pope neither doe they exercise it in their owne name but they haue it from the Prince and in hir name and by hir authoritie do they vse it Chap. 3. the. 14. Diuision Bishop of Sarum Both these gouernments vvere confounded in Moses Therfore they may be confounded and the Priestes of Israell had the iudgement and gouernment Ecclesiastical and ciuill iurisdiction confounded in Moses of the people and S. Augustine was troubled with hearing and determining of causes as it appeareth by Possidonius And where you say to be a chief or a ruler is a ciuill gouernment nay in ecclesiasticall causes it is ecclesiasticall gouernment and not ciuill And these differences of gouernment Augustine heareth ciuill causes may not so vnaduisedly be confounded This is the key of ecclesiasticall correction and belongerh onely to the ecclesiasticall officer and to none other Hereof Saincte Paule sayth Seniorem ne corripueris nisi sub c. Tradidi illum Satanae This iurisdiction is not ciuill but ecclesiasticall and therfore may be exercised by an ecclesiasticall person T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 1. 2. Here I wyll take in that whiche the Bishop of Sarisburye hath in the last page of his half sheete touching this matter And fyrst of all I well agree that he sayth that to giue vnto Sathan which is to excommunicate and to correct an ecclesiasticall person by reprehension or putting him out of the ministerie if the cause so require is mere ecclesiastical and not ciuill and that those things ought to be done of the officers of the Churche This onely I denye that the ministers ought to medle with ciuill offices For proofe whereof the Bishop alleageth the example of Augustine whiche as Possidonius writeth was troubled with the hearing determining of causes Wherin Possidonius sayth nothing but that I willingly agree vnto For the minister with the elders ought both to heare and determine of causes but of such causes as perteyne vnto their knowledge whereof I haue spoken before And that Possidomus ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustine as he was a minister and not of ciuill affaires it appeareth by that which he writeth immediatly after where he sayth Being also consulted of by certain in their worldly affaires he wrote epistles to diuers but he accounted of this as of compulsien and resiraynte from his better busynesses Wherby it appeareth that S. Augustine medled not with those worldly affaires further than by way of giuing counsell which is not vnlawfull for a minister to doe as one friende vnto another so that his ministerie be not therby hindered Io. Whitgifte What S. Augustine did in such matters and whether he weroccupied in worldly Augustine iudge in worldely matters matters or no and that he was not a counsell giuer only but also a iudge it shall best appeare by his owne wordes spoken of himselfe whiche are so playne and euident that after you haue hearde them you will be ashamed of this answere to Possidonius and of your former assertion also Augustine therefore in his booke de opere Aug. lib. de opere Monac Monachorum of this matter writeth thus VVho feedeth a flock and doth not receiue of the milke of the flocke And yet I call to witnesse vpon my soule the Lorde Iesus in whose name I doe boldely speake these thinges that touchyng myne owne commoditie I hadde rather euerye daye as it is appoynted in well ordered Monasteries to woorke some thyng wyth my handes and to haue the other houres free to reade and to praye or too dooe somme thynge in the Holye Scriptures than too suffer the tumultuous perplexities of other mennes causes touchyng secular businesse eyther in determinyng them by iudging or in cutting them off by intreatyng to the whyche troubles Augustine thinketh that the how ghost hath bounde Bishops to ciuill causes the Apostle hathe bounde vs not by his owne iudgement but by the iudgement of hym whyche didde speake in him and yet hee himselfe did not suffer these troubles for the discourse of his Apostleship was otherwyse Here in playne woordes hée declareth that it was secular busynesse aboute the whyche he was occupyed and although he séeme to complayne of the multitude of suche businesse yet dothe hee acknowledge the same to bee lawfull iuste and conueniente and therefore he addeth and sayeth VVhyche laboure notwythstandyng wee suffer not without the consolation of the Lorde for the hope of eternall lyfe that wee maye bryng foorthe frute wyth pacience for wee are seruauntes of that Churche and especially to the weaker members what members soeuer wee are in the same bodie And
where greate complaynte is made of this greeuous persecution when as you and your disciples cease not as I sayde moste falsely and slaunderously to reporte of suche as executing good lawes discharge theyr conscience to God and their duetie towardes the Prince We therefore exhorte you if there be any feare of God before your eyes any reuerence towards the Prince any desire of promoting the Gospell any louing affection towardes the Church of Christe to submit your selues according to your dueties to godly orders to leaue off contentiousnesse to ioyne with vs in preaching of the word of God and beating downe the kingdome of Antichriste that thys your diuision procure not Gods wrath to be poured vpon vs. T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 2. Here M. Doctor contrary to the pretestation of the authours of the Admonition whiche declare that for the abuses and corruptions they dare not simply subscribe saithe that therefore they will not subscribe bycause they are required by lawfull authoritie which how both presumptuous and vncharitable a iudgement it is let all men iudge especially vpon this matter whiche hath bin declared And where M. Doctor would vpon y ◠marginal note pr y t we haue good discipline bycause we haue good doctrine ther vpon doth wonderfully triumph he playeth as he of whome it is said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is hauing gotten nothing holdeth it fast For can M. Doctor be so ignorant that this manner of speach doctrine and discipline cannot be s uered is vsed of that that they ought not to be seuered ▪ when as we say following S. Paule that we can do nothing against the truth do we not meane that we ought to do nothing or can do nothing lawfully against it And do not all men know when we say that a man cannot be separated from his wife but for the cause of A ultery that we meane he ought not or he cannot lawfully Therefore this is as all men may see a meere cauill and triumph ouer his owne shadow There is no bragge of suffering made by the authours of the Admonition The modestie wherwith he hath defended this cause cannot be hidden That he would haue other men punished for well doing when he is not content that the open wrongs which he doth should be once spoken of I haue shewed how vnreasonable it is Io. Whitgifte I speake of their denying to subscribe to the Articles concerning the substance of doctrine which they confesse to be sound vsing a godly interpretation in a poynt or two c. what other abuses so euer there be in the booke of common prayer or in the Church yet that is no sufficient cause why they shoulde refuse to subscribe to the truth of doctrine professed in this Church and conteyned in those Articles Wherefore séeing they confesse them to be sound and yet denie to subscribe who can otherwise iudge of them than I haue signifyed in my Answer I acknowledge my selfe to be ignorante that in this and suche like phrases thys Can is not taken for ought if it be spoken simply word Can is taken for ought When Saint Paule saithe that we can do nothing againste the truth he meaneth simply as he speaketh and doth not there vse Can for ought For indeede we can do nothing against the truth though we do the worst we can It is no vsuall phrase but an vnproper kind of speach to say that a man cannot do a thing when he should say that he ought not to do it except he adde some thing as he cannot do it lawfully or well or orderly and such like Wherefore my dulnesse is such that I cannot vnderstande suche darke speaches vntill they be interpreted and yet whether they woulde so interprete themselues or no it maye be doubted If they bragge not of persecution wherevnto tende these wordes of theirs this is that we striue for about which we haue suffered not as euill doers c. and quote in the margent to proue it 1. Pet. 3. as though they were persecuted by infidels How immodest soeuer I am in defending this cause yet if it be compared eyther to Schismatiks deserue to be sharply reproued their passing bitternesse or to your spitefull speaches and vnséemely tauntes and iestes I shall appeare tootoo simple and although I must néedes say thus much that disturbers of the common peace of the Churche and Schismatikes deserue to be with sharpe wordes reproued yet haue not I vsed that sharpenesse and bitternesse whyche diuerse learned menne bothe olde and newe haue vsed in the lyke case If I haue done any man wrong let him come foorth and proue it and I will render vnto him quadruple T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 3. Finally as you exhort vs to submitte ourselues to good order whiche haue bin alwayes and yet are ready to do to leaue to be contentious which neuer yet began to ioyne with you in preaching the word of God which haue stopped our mouthes and will not suffer vs to preache so we exhort you in Gods behalfe and as you will once answer it before the iust iudge that you will not willingly shut your eyes against the truth that if the Lord vouchsafe to open it vnto you you kicke not against it Wherefore we pray you to take heede that neither the desire of keeping your wealth and honoure which you are in nor the hope which you may haue of any further promotion nor yet the care of keeping your estimation by mainteining that whiche you haue once set downe nor the sleighey suggestion of craftie and wyly Papists do driue you to stumble against this truth of God which toucheth the gouernment of his Church and the purging of those corruptions whiche are amongst vs knowing that you cannot stumble vpon the word of God but foorthwith you runne yourselfe against Christ which is the rocke And you know that he will not giue back but breaketh all to fitters whatsoeuer that rusheth against him Io. Whitgifte You do not submit your selues to the order of the Church which is a good and decent order you haue filled the Churche with maruellous contentions and haue strangely deuided euen such as professe the Gospell your mouthes are not stopped but through your owne procuring I do not withstand that which you vntruly call the truth for any such cause as you surmise God who seeth my hart knoweth but bycause I sée these your deuises to be set downe by you without any sufficient warrant in the word of God agaynste the practise and order of the primitiue Churche tending also to daungerous errours and meere confusion both of the Church and of the common wealth T. C. Page 172. Sect. vlt. And if the matter herein alleadged do not satisfye you then I desire euen before the same GOD that you confute it not by passing ouer thynges whyche you can not answer or by stauing both the words and the meaning of the booke and taking your owne fansie to confuce or by wrougling
handle matters which perteyne not to the spirituall iurisdiction this I say he speaketh but he doth not proue it In the rest of that Section he intreateth of the abuses of such officers wherein I doe not dissent from him T. C. M. Beza in hs booke of Diuorces prouing that the iudiciall deciding of matrimoniall causes apperteyneth vnto the ciuill magistrate sayth that Officials Proctors end Promoters and in a worde all the swinish filth now of long time hath wasted the Church Io. Whitgifte I vnderstande not by what reasons M. Beza in that place proueth that the iudiciall deciding of matrimoniall causes apperteyneth to the ciuill Magistrate Howbeeit Officials c. in such cases deale not in this Church of Englande without the consent and authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate It is not good dealing to applie those things which M. Beza and other speake of such offices abused vnder the Pope to the same offices nowe reformed vnder a Christian Prince that professeth the Gospell But thus you dazell the peoples eyes T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. Chap. to the Romaines speaking against the ciuill iurisdiction of Bishops doth by the same reason condemne it in their Deputies the Officials Io. Whitgifte Peter Martyr speaketh not agaynst the office but agaynst certaine abuses in the officers this is not simple dealing to transferre that to the office that is spoken of the abuse of the office T. C. 7 That the Ministers of the worde ought not to exercise any ill offices and iurisdiction M. Caluin in his institutions 4. booke 11. chap. 9. Sect. bringeth diuers reasons to proue that Bishops may neyther vs rpe nor take 〈◊〉 giuen them eyther the right of the sworde or the knowledge of ciuill causes Io. Whitgifte The reasons that M. Caluine vseth there be neyther many nor greatly strong I haue answered them fullie Tract 23. and yet M. Caluine speaketh onely of that princely power which the Romishe Bishops clayme not as committed vnto them by the Prince and and ciuill Magistrate but due vnto them by the worde of God from the which chalenge I haue shewed in the foresayde treatise howe farre our Bishops are T. C. M. Beza in his Confessions Chap. 5. Sect. 32. sayth that the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction is to be distinguished from the ciuill and that although the Bishoppes in the tymes of christian Emperours were troubled with the hearing of ciuill causes yet they did not that by any iudiciall power which they exercised but by a friendly intreatie of the parties whiche were at discorde and sayth notwithstanding that herein the Emperours did giue to much to the ambition of certaine Bishops wherevpon by little and by little afterwarde all things were confounded And in the. 42. Section sayth that those corporall punishments whiche the Apostles exercised were peculiar and extraordinarie Io. Whitgifte M. Beza his bare worde is no sufficient proofe agaynst so many other testimonies and reasons as are to the contrarie and I haue sufficiently shewed Tract 23. cap. 3. Diuis vlt. that Bishops in tymes past did not onely heare ciuill causes but also iudicially determine the same Touching the corporall punishments which the Apostles exercised M. Beza in his booke de Haereticis a magistratu puniendis doth make them so ordinarie that he vseth them as sufficient arguments to proue his purpose and sayth plainly that the Apostles did exercise these punishments not by the right of the Ecclesiasticall ministerie but by the right of the ciuill Magistracie as I haue declared Tract 23. Cap. 3. Diuis 12. T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. to the Romanes speaking of this meetings of both Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in one man sayth that when both the ciuill and Ecclesiasticall functions do so meete that one hynder the other so that he which exerciseth the one cannot minister the other Io. Whitegifte M. Martyr speaketh of an absolute iurisdiction ciuill such as the Pope claymeth and not of this which is practised by the Bishops in the Church of England whereof he had experience in the dayes of King Edwarde euen in this realme and the which he also then allowed T. C. M. Bucer vpon the. 5. of Matthew sayth that there is no man so wise and holy which is able to exercise both the ciuill and the Ecclesiasticall power and that therefore he whiche will exercise the one must leaue the other Io. Whitgifte I answere as I did to M. Martyr for he also allowed that ciuill iurisdiction that the Bishops in England did exercise in the time of King Edwarde T. C. 8 That the Sacraments ought not to be priuately administred nor by women The foresayd confession C. 20. holdeth that baptisme ought not to be ministred by women or midwyues to the which also may be ioyned the Liturgie of the English Church at Geneua which condemneth the ministring of eyther of the Sacraments in priuate houses or by women I Whitgifte These be néedlesse proofes yet are there learned mē of the cōtrary iudgemēt ow beit no man sayth that women may baptise ordinarily or that the Sacramonts may be administred in priuate places otherwise than vpon vrgent occasion and in that respecte no learned man dothe condemne the ministring of the Sacramentes in priuate places T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. chapter of the. 1. Epistle to the Corinthes in describing the corruptions of the Lordes Supper noteth this to be one that the Churche did not communicate altogither which corruption as it was in diuers places in tymes past so he complayneth that it is nowe Io. Whitgifte M. Martyr in that place speaketh agaynste priuate Masses and the complainte that he maketh is concerning them wherein we fully agrée with him neyther doe we like or allowe of suche as withdrawe themselues from the Lordes table when the Supper is celebrated You neuer loue to rehearse the authors wordes bycause they make not for you but gather collections of your owne contrarie to the meaning of the author as you do in this place which the Reader shall easily perceiue if it wil please him to reade M. Martyr himself in that place by you quoted And surely it is too great iniurie to wreste that to the order of celebrating the Communion allowed off in this Church of Englande which he or any man else speaketh agaynst pryuate Masses but such are your deepe and profounde collections T. C. M. Bucer in his first booke of the kingdome of Christ and. 7. chapter proueth out of the 10. to the Corinthes that the whole Churche shoulde receiue the Supper of the Lorde togyther and that the vse of the Church of God in this behalfe ought with great and diligent endeuour to be restored vnto the Churches and that it is a contempt of the mysteries not to be partakers when they are called Io. Whitgifte M. Bucer speaketh nothing in that place touching this question where vnto I agrée not he woulde haue the Communion ministred in the publike congregation who denyeth that except