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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A25216	A reply to the Reverend Dean of St. Pauls's reflections on the Rector of Sutton, &c. wherein the principles and practices of the non-conformists are not only vindicated by Scripture, but by Dr. Stillingsfleet's Rational account, as well as his Irenicum : as also by the writings of the Lord Faulkland, Mr. Hales, Mr. Chillingworth, &c. / by the same hand ; to which is added, St. Paul's work promoted, or, Proper materials drawn from The true and only way of concord, and, Pleas for peace and other late writings of Mr. Richard Baxter ...	Alsop, Vincent, 1629 or 30-1703.; Barret, John, 1631-1713.	1681 (1681)	Wing A2919; ESTC R6809	123,967	128

or lay the Sin at their Door But I observe you would have Care taken Preface p. 86. that there be No Pretence left for idle loose and profane Persons never going to any Church at all whence I conclude that you cannot but allow it that such as are not satisfied to joyn with you yet ought to joyn in God's Worship elsewhere and that in your serious Thoughts you judg it better for Persons to joyn with Congregations that hold Communion in your way of Worship unlawful for of such you are speaking in that place than to be of no Christian Society than not to attend at all on God's Worship Here if you would not be offended I shall tell you what a plain Christian a Neighbour of mine said of you I can remember I have seen him at the Sacrament with some of you abov● 20 Years ago and would he now have poor hungry Souls deprived of such Ordinancees and Means of Grace that cannot be satisfied to partake of them in his Way If any were a Cause of depriving so many thousands of their bodily Food as he would have deprived of Food for their Souls what would the World say of such Whereby he seemed to think your Sin as great as Murder and in some respects aggravated beyond it As he may likewise think the Sin of those that care not unnecessarily to offend others or would cause them to offend to be a kind of Murder in the Apostles Account Rom. 14. 15. Now walkest thou not charitably Destroy not him with thy meat for whom Christ died Such was the honest Man's Zeal he would have written to you to put it to your Conscience as he said but I thought this Intimation from him sufficient 3. I find you so kind or just you help such to Ministers those that cannot conform Irenic p. 42 you say It belongs to the Magistrate To see that Ministers preach the true Doctrine though he cannot lawfully forbid the true Doctrine to be taught and that they duly administer the Sacraments though he cannot command them to administer them otherwise than Christ hath delivered them down to us And that Christ did not deliver the Sign of the Cross down to us with Baptism I suppose the highest Conformists will grant This gives some Hopes such may lawfully preach still whom others cannot lawfully forbid Preaching And you tell us from another Vnreasonableness of Separation pag. 7. that Cranmer held himself for a Arch-Bishop still and was by Q. Marry forcibly restrained from it Latimer though he renounced his Bishoprick yet he kept his Ministry and never repented him of it And Ibid. p. 132. you say The Question is not whether all publick Worship be sinful when forbidden which you never said or thought as you tell us in the same Page I abhor and detest such Principles as to set up Man's Laws above God's This is good And you seem to allow that such publick Worship as hath no Evil in it antecedent to the Prohibition may not be forbidden Very good still All the Question here is Whether there be not Schism in it For I hope you shall never find Idolatry or Sedition in that Worship I would plead for Now as for the Charge of Schism do but allow Ministers equal Favour with others and you have said enough to clear them Iren. p. 113 116 119 120. Charge not them with Schism upon account of their distinct Meetings who are driven into them by your over-rigorours Impositions You know well how great a matter this imposing unlawful Conditions is with Chillingworth to warrant Separation How oft he is upon it in Chap. 5. where p. 267. ● 40. he hath the confidence to tell his Adversary You mistake in thinking that Protestants hold themseves obliged not to communicate with you only or principally by reason of your Errors and Corruptions For the true Reason according to my third Observation is not so much because you maintain Errors and Corruptions as because you impose them c. like your pleading for Non-conformists Irenic p. 118. So Ball of Separation pag. 159. The Lord needeth not Mans lie neither doth he allow us to do Evil that Good may come thereof And therefore I must not subscribe to an Error against Conscience though never so innocent nor profess Approbation of that which in Conscience I cannot allow though never so small c. But thus are many Ministers driven from you who neither dare lay down their Ministry nor take the charge of Parochial Congregations on them upon such hard that is sinful Terms For to borrow an Expression of Dr. Potter's Though in the issue the Errors be not damnable to them which believe as they profess yet for us to profess c. what we believe not were without question damnable Now may I come in with my Conclusion It is this Conclusion 1. It becomes unavoidable necessary for such Ministers and Christians as cannot in Conscience submit to your Terms and conform to your way of Worship neither may lawfully lay aside their Ministry nor live without God's Worship and Ordinances to be for other Assemblies than yours where the one may exercise their Ministry and the other with such Ministers may partake of God's Ordinances and joyn in his Worship which you call setting up of new Churches After the drawing up of this looking into Corbet of Church-Unity and Schism I find something to this purpose pag. 31 32. Though indeed I took my Hints from you here Now because I would not leave this Proposition so naked as yours stands I shall here offer something 1. On the behalf of Ministers 2. On the behalf of private Christians 1. On the behalf of such Ministers 1. You cannot deny but the Ministers who are forced to stand off from you were at least very many of them duly qualified for and had a sufficient valid call to the Office of the Ministry that they were God's Ministers Christ's Ministers before their Ejection You cannot deny but the mediate Call is from God and Christ even as well as the immediate Call was Those two Texts Act. 20. 28. 1 Cor. 12. 28. to name no more fully prove it 2. Though it is not questioned by us but the Clergy is under the Iurisdiction of the Prince Ministers as well as others under the Civil Magistrate and that they may where there is just Cause by him be deprived of their publick Liberty and may be imprisoned banished put to death yet without just Cause as Male-administration or matter of Scandal rendring them unfit to use your own Words no Power on Earth whether Civil or Ecclesiastical may turn those out of the Ministry whom God hath called to it Rulers Bishops may neither put in nor put out of this Office as they list Men may neither admit into nor put from the Ministry meerly at their their own Pleasure but only according to Christ's Will and Appointment For his Officers and Servants they are And Christ hath by his Apostles whose Authority

is certainly Superior to that of the greatest Bishops and Councils that ever were described the Office and how Persons are to be qualified for it And when such have been called to the Office while they give no just Cause for Suspension and Degradation Christ looks on them as his Ministers still and accordingly his Will is that Men own them as such And they that despise them may therein ● in a Degree be guilty of despising Christ. Chemnitius Loc. com par 3. p. 136. col 1. speaks fully to the purpose thus As God alone properly claims to himself the Right of Calling even when the Call is mediate so also properly it belongs to God ●o remove one from the Ministry Therefore so long as God suffers in the Ministry his Servant teaching rightly and living blamelesly Ecclesia non habet Potestatem alienum Servum amovendi The Church hath no Power Authority of putting away another's Servant But when be no further edifies either by his Doctrine or Life but destroys the Church then God himself removes him 3. If what you have said formerly remark'd in Rector of Sutton p. 29. hold true and you have not hitherto disproved the same then you must yield the present Non-conformist Ministers have not been suspended and cast out for any just Cause And may I not also add If Clement say true as you cite him here Vnreasonableness of Separation p. 314 315. Those therefore who were appointed by them or other eminent Men the whole Church being therewith wel-pleased discharging their Office with Humility Quietness Readiness and Unblameableness and being Men of a long time of good Report we think such Men cannot justly be cast out of their Office Though in the heat of Disputation your Opinion seems to be changed of Persons as well as Things yet I hope in cool Blood you would not deny but such a Character agrees to many Non-conformists that you should think they cannot justly be cast out of Office And I doubt not but you are well acqainted with that old Canon That no Bishop or Priest should be taken into another's Place if the former were blameless 4. If still they are in Office as Ministers of Christ are they not obliged to serve him in that Office as they have a Call and Opportunity See again Rector of Sutton pag. 29 34 75. They must not neglect the Gift that is in them Sad was the Doom of the vnprofitable Servant that buried his Talent The Teacher must wait on Teaching I suppose all Christ's Ministers are concerned in that solemn Charge 2. Tim. 4. 1 2. And they are to take heed to the Ministry which they have received even though Men forbid them You abhor and detest such Principles as to set Man's Laws above God's Laws And though they be threatned with Persecution for it when they are persecuted in one City they may flee to another Mat. 10. 23. Yet must they not run away from their Work but be carrying that on in other Places where they come according to their Ability and Opportunity Prudence directed them Ioh. 20. 19. to meet privately there at Evening keeping the Door shut for fear of the Jews yet meet they would If Ministers be driven from their former Flocks yet are they Men in Office and preach as such not only as gifted Men in what other place soever God by his Providence calls them to bestow their Pains They are Teachers by Office to more than their proper Charges even to as many as they have a Providential Call hic nunc to preach unto So it appears Men cannot lawfully silence Christ's Ministers without just Cause or if they do that such Decree and Sentence does not oblige Conscience I have it from Mr. B. Church History p. 446 447. The Dominican Inquisitor that reasoned the matter with the Bohemians would have silenced excommunicated Priests bound to cease preaching but had the wit to add if silenced for a reasonable Cause and to confess Sententia injuste lata à suo judice si Errorem inducat vel Peccatum mortale afferet nec timenda est nec tenenda The old Bohemian Reformers held as Ibid. p. 446. Every Priest and Deacon is bound to preach God's Word freely or he sinneth mortally and after Ordination he should not cease no not when excommunicated because he must obey God rather than Man I see in Carranza fol. 437. It was one of the Articles for which the Council of Constance sentenced I. Wickliffe's Bones to be digg'd up and burnt Art 13. They that leave off to preach or hear God's Word for Men's Excommunication are excommunicate And you that have greater store of Authors and choice Books then such as I must ever hope to have the Advantage of● you I say I doubt not have what others add they are excommunicate and in the day of Iudgment shall be judged Traitors to Christ. And these were among the Articles for which I. Husse was condemned Carranza ●ol 440. Art 17 18. A Priest of Christ living according to his Law and having the Knowledg of the Scripture and a working to edify the People ought to preach notwithstanding any pretended Excommunication And every one that comes to the Office of a Pri●st hath a Command to preach and ought to obey that Command notwithstanding Excommunication And these you know were before our oldest Non-conformists 5. But now Sir that I may come home to you If Ministers were bound to cease preaching to lay aside their Ministry when silenced unjustly then at what a miserable Loss might the Church be left And if you could scarce satisfy your selves to see her at such a loss we may very well hope Christ would not have her left at such a Loss His care of his Church no doubt is greater than yours would be Because you seem not to take any notice of what I said Rect. of Sutton p. 28. give me leave here to mind you of it again What a woful Case the Church was in if she might be deprived of all or the greatest and soundest part of her Ministers at Man's pleasure And further pag. 43. I put a Case shewing that if what you would have be admitted it might fare a great deal the worse with the Church under Orthodox Bishops and Governours than if they were grand Hereticks But to come to the Point I aim at You know when almost two thousand Ministers were cut off from their publick Ministerial Work as it were in one day by a Law of Conformity Now let us suppose the Minds of Rulers to change which is not naturally impossible and put the case that your Conformity should be made as great a Crime as Non-conformity hath been and yet the true Religion acknowledged and the true Doctrine of Faith owned as you say here pag. 148. ● 6. Though I find Mr. Phil. Nye who is a very considerable Person with you Preface p. 27. In his Beams of Light pag. 192. saying Let the same Impositions and Penalties be

and doubted not when I was writing those former Papers but I could have made some use of it but I could not then meet with the Book for want of which I looked on those Collections as incompleat Truly Sir I was in hope the learned Doctor had retained that same Spirit of Moderation towards his dissenting Brethren which those sober moderate Principles he hath published and commended unto others heretofore spake him to have How strange is it that the Reverend Doctor should ever forget the Rector of Sutton And is it not as strange that he should be for silencing such a one as of Scismatical Principles Or to speak more plainly should be ashamed to own him in that worthy Work so full of Learning and Judgment meriting Praise rather than Censure But it is too plain here he hath deserted the Rector of Sutton and that in a Matter wherein he was in the right and had the strongest Reason on his side and hath given up the Cause to such an imposing Party as before e had condemned And what is the matter that the Reverend Doctor is so highly offended at me for desiring he would renew his old Acquaintance with one so near him and be friends again None in the World being nearer to him if that be true Proximus sum egomet mihi unless he will say and make that good in none of the best sence Ego non sum ego Now I am heartily sorry if we may see Reason to change our Opinion of him as he says we may of some Persons as well as Things in twenty Years time Preface pag. 76. Sure I am it either does or ought to grieve me at heart to see his Hand at such dividing Work who of all the dignified Persons in England I had thought was specially engaged and hoped also was as well enclined to promote Union what in him lay but not to widen Differences by pressing and pleading so hard for Dividing-Terms When certain Bishops were met that sought nothing more than that poor Athanasius might be oppressed Doli● C●lumniis malis Artibus Paphnutius seeing it rose up and took Maximus who as I remember had been a Confessor by the hand saying Neque te decet unà inter istos sedere So I thought it least became the Reverend Doctor to appear with the forwardest in condemning his dissenting Brethren whose Cause he had so well pleaded in time past He begins his Preface with a Story of the learned and excellent Bishop Iewell which I leave to others to examine But here I call to mind the Story of Bishop Lindsey a Scotish-Bishop who before he came to his Dignity had given this Question at St. Andrew's Whether things indifferent once abused and for their Abuse abolished c. Negatur Where he could bid Defiance to those that were for retaining such Ceremonies Yet afterwards he was a zealous Contender for them turning Disce pati into Dissipate And the great complaint of him was that in dealing with his Brethren he remembred not what he was once himself that he pittied not his former Case as some of them said in their Persons as Augustine did the Manichees greater Hereticks than he took them to be Let them be fierce rigorous against you who never were deceived with the like Error as they see you But as for me I can use no such Rigor against you with whom I ought to bear now as I did at that time with my self c. Thus I could wish the Doctor would be as favourable as it becometh him to be in his Censures of his Brethren who are very much of the same mind he was of once And therefore I shall once again apply my self to him Reverend Sir I do not very well know whether that Title The Rector of Sutton committed with the Dean of St. Paul's makes you more angry or merry This I know those Papers of mine went out of my hands without any Title who put that to it I know not The Title you say Preface p. 71. Was enough to make the common People imagine this was some busie Iustice of Peace who had taken them both at a Conventicle And I confess the word Committed might puzzle those that could not English bonos inter sese committere there p. 7. But sure you had no thought of my being a Iustice of Peace any more than I should suspect the Dean of St. Paul's since I have heard of and seen what he hath both preached and written against them would frequent Conventicles However you rub up my Memory here that I have one thing to put you in mind of though perhaps you 'l call me a busie Informer for it in your Next And yet call me at your pleasure so that it may incline you to more favourable Thoughts of truly Religious Assemblies such as you have condemned as Conventicles and separate Meetings In the former times of England's Distractions and Confusions I being unsatisfied of the Lawfulness of keeping in publick either those days of Thanksgiving for Victories or of Fasting and Prayer for a Blessing on those Counsels and Forces that then were as appointed it happened that Mr. S. preached in my place upon one of these Fast-days I suppose at the Request of some but unknown to me The Text in Deut. For this is your Wisdom c. which some remember still though it is about twenty Years since when I at the same time had a private Meeting at St. Lawrence's as one called it This I confess may look something like a personal Reflection but my end here is that you would be pleased to resolve me these Queries viz. Whether ever you accounted this Act Schismatical preaching without the Consent of the Rector of the Parish Or the Assembly that joyned at that time Schismaticks Yet was here no breach of Order Or were there no Churches in England then or till your establisht Rule came in And yet Sir I had never the less Esteem of Mr. S. at that time or of others who were satisfied to go farther than I durst Again Whether was our private Meeting at that time a sinful Conventicle when the far greater part of the Parish was with him at Church I hope you will grant it was a lawful because a Loyal Conventicle But so much to your Reflection on the Title of my former Papers Now Sir consider whether we have not more just Exceptions against this of yours 1. The unreasonableness of Separation Here 1. Consider whether you do not condemn that as Separation which is not And is that reasonable all Assemblies distinct from yours are not separate Meetings as the World is used in an evil sence no though they differ in some unnecessary Mode or Circumstances of Worship many that ordinarily joyn with you in the substantial parts of Worship and meet not in Opposition yet I cannot discern but their Meetings fall under your Censure as much as others because they keep not to your establish'd Rule when Preface pag.

Cases wherein Moderation ought to be shewn And is not that very agreeable to the Christian-temper And what may others say now of your Icenicum If what I transcribed thence seem to you not agreeable to the Christian temper then was you not under some great Distemper either at the writing of this latter or that former Book In the Christian-temper I have Occasion p. 370. to borrow something from Bishop Downam what he noteth to have always been the Hypocrit Guise I there say is the genius of false Zeal S●il To neglect the greater Du●●es and to affect the Observation of the less to prefer Circumstances before th●●obstance and Ceremonies before the Works either of Piety or Charity to place the heig●th of their Religion either in observing or urging Ceremonies or Controversies in inveighing against them And I say further p. 371. You would not take him for a wise and careful Builder that laid the greatest Weight on the weakest part of the Wall And is that true Zeal for God Or rather is it not a selfish Zeal which is for ones own Opinions or own Party neglecting those things which make most for the Honour of God and wherein the main Interest of Religion lieth If I could see any thing there or in that Book which chanceth to bear the Name of the Rector of Sutton that is not agreeable to the Christian-temper and to the Truth and Doctrine of Christ I hope I should be ready to retract the same Ibid. For it is to pick up all the Passages he could meet with in a Book written twenty Years sinc with great tenderness towards Dissenters before the Laws were establish'd And have you repented of that your former Kindness and Tenderness towards them since the Laws were against them But Solomon tels us A Friend loveth at all times and a Brother is born for Adversity Which I observed 〈◊〉 agreeable to the Christian-temper p. 219. And you cannot deny that which you told us twenty Years since of the Magistrates Power being bounded He hath Power of determining things undetermined by the Word 〈◊〉 they be agreeable to the Word His Laws must be regulated by the general Rules of the Divine Law Rector of Sutton p. 12. That no Laws of Men can hinder but what was Truth will be Truth still and what was Duty will be Duty still In what followeth you more humbly as it would seem than truely confess in Mr. Cotton's words the weakness or unwariness of those Expressions which I have gathered out of your Irenicum That Book was your First-born And the First-born was the chief of their Strength Psal. 105. 36. But it seems you are for reading Gen. 49. 3. Principium doloris rather than Principium roboris The beginning of your Strength is now become the beginning of your Grief Thus you now let the World know indeed that whereas you had written much favouring the Cause of Dissenters your Thoughts at last are changed as to those Things and Persons too Next you fall hotly on me And have you not very well required the Author of that Book for the Tenderness and Pitty he had for you and the Concernment he then expressed to have brought you upon easier Terms c. Reverend Sir I hope you will give me leave to speak when I am thus spoken to I suppose you expect my Answer when you put Questions so close to me First then I thank you for your good pains taken in that Book and for your truly Christian Design in it so agreeable to the Christian-temper though it hath been unsuccesful I doubt not yet but that Book will stand as a Witness before God and the World against many who can never answer that Strength of Reason in it an Evidence of Truth against unn●cessary rigorous mischievous Impositions and yet were for pressing and are still for continuing them upon us But it is no ill Requital of the Author that I have an esteem of his Work And if you can reconcile the Scope of your Sermon with what I cite out of your former Writings do your self that Right Or if you can refute those Collections otherwise such as meet with them may be tempted to think you self-condemned When you say you wrote in Tenderness c. I hope you did not only play the Orator make a flourish meerly with Words or plead our Cause against your own Judgment nor acted the part of Politician as hoping to engage a Party but wrote your Judgment as a sober and indeed well studied Divine Will you say you wrote partially then as swayed with your Pitty and Tenderness towards Dissenters How then shall we be satisfied and assured that you have not written partially of late out of overmuch Fondn●ss on Conformity If you wrote impartially your Judgment and Reason deserves to be regarded till you or some other for you bring greater Str●●gth of Reason to prove you was then in an Error You pleaded wel● for 〈◊〉 ●●ms and what can you say now what have you thought of since to justify Mens imposing harder Terms How can you answer your own Interrogatories What ground can there be why Christians should not stand upon the same Terms now which they did in the time of Christ and his Apost es And whether do they consult the Churches Peace and Vnity who suspend it upon such things as you know what How far doth the Example of our Saviour or his Apostles warrant such rigorous Impositions Rector of Sutton pag. 7 8. You express your having been concerned to have brought us in But were not many of us in both in the Church and in the Ministry before we were put out by the late Impositions● By this expression of yours it would seem your Church is a new Church lately erected standing upon new Terms which I shall have occasion again to take notice of But were we not true Ministers before had we not a valid Ordination Deny it if you can And if we were true Ministers before then it is a great Question whether we are not so still unless you can prove we were justly degraded And consequently whether we are not obliged to the exercise of our Ministry as we may have opportunity Preface p. 72. And hath he now deserved this at your hands to have them all thrown down in his ●ace and to be thus upbraided with his former Kindness Is this your Ingenuity your Gratitude your Christian-temper Now are not these pretty sharp Reflections If you can justly charge me with any Bitterness and Rancor c. I shall acknowledg such things not agreeable to the Christian-temper and would be ashamed of them If you are ashamed to own your former Principles many will judg it is without Cause It may prove you fallen from those sober Principles but it will not prove those Principles false When you speak of my throwing them in your Face my Design was not to cast Dirt upon so worthy a Person What I alledged I took to be matter of

Ordinance and that now they do only claim Superiority from her Majesties Supream Government If this be true then it is requisite and necessary that my Lord of Canterbury do recant and retract his Saying in his Book of the great Volumn against Cartwright where he saith in plain Words by the Name of Dr. Whitgift that the Superiority of Bishops is of God's own Institution which Saying doth impugn her Majesties Supream Government directly and therefore it is to be retracted plainly and truly And I find something like this in that small Tract called English Puritanism c. 6. § 6. They ●old that all Arch-Bishops Bish●ps Deans Officials c. have their Offices and Functions only by Will and Pleasure of the King and Civil States of this Realm and they hold that whosoever holdeth that the King may not without Sin remove these Offices out of the Church or 〈◊〉 these Offices are Jure divino and not only or meerly Jure humano That all such deny a principal Part of the King's Supremacy which indeed you must hold as to Bishops if you can prove them an Apostolical Institution Though I know the time when you was of another mind Rector of Sutton p. 41. Will not all these things make it seem very improbable that it should be an Apostolical Institution And pag. 40. you believed that upon the strictest Enquiry it would be ●ound true that Ierome Austin Ambrose Sedulius Primasius Theodoret Theophylact were all for the Identity of both Name and Order of Bishops and ●re●byters in the Primitive Church Now suppose the Civil Governours should determine the Government by Bishops as superiour to the rest of the Clergy to be only jure humano that they had Power to alter if they pleased and should require Assent to this their Determination and the Ecclesiasticks on the other hand should be of your mind resolving not to give up the Cause of the Church or disown its Constitution and should determine it to be Iure Divino vel Apostolico and to be owned of Men as such In such a Case whether must the former for the Churches Peace think themselves bound to submit to the Determinations of the latter Or to which of their Determinations must others submit For none but such as the Vicar of Bray could submit to both Thus I have gone over your three Conclusions which you seem to make great account of What great Service they are like to do you let the Impartial Reader judg Instead of my third Conclusion I would offer to Consideration Chap. 26 of Corbet's Kingdom of God among Men. of Submission to Things imposed by lawful Authority p. 171 c. Particularly pag. 173. Though the Ruler be Iudg of what Rules he is to prescribe yet the Conscience of every Subject is to judg with a Iudgment of Discretion whether those Rules be agreeable to the Word of God or not and so whether his Conformity thereto be lawful or unlawful Otherwise he must act upon blind Obedience c. with what follows in that Page And pag. 174. It is much easier for Rulers to relax the strictness of many Injunctions about matters of supposed Convenience than for Subjects to be inlarged from the strictness of their Iudgment And blessed are they that consider Conscience and load it not with needless Burdens but seek to relieve it in its Distresses You go on with me Preface p. 74 But he urges another Passage in the same Place viz. That if others cast them wholly out of Communion their Separation is necessary That is no more than hath been always said by our Divines in respect to the Church of Rome But will not this equally hold against our Church if it excommunicates those who cannot conform Now may not it be said here as Rational Account p. 336. beginning They did not voluntarily forsake the Communion of your Church and therefore are no Schismaticks but your Carriage and Practices were 〈…〉 them to joyn together in a distinct Communion from you And may not your own Words ibid. p. 356 be returned Scil. That by your own Confession the present Division and Separation lies at your door if it be not made evident that there were most just and sufficient Reasons for your casting them out of your Communion And supposing any Church though pretending to be never so Catholick doth restrain her Communion within such narrow and unjust Bounds that she declares such excommunicate who do not approve all such Errors in Doctrine and Corruptions in practice which the Communion of such a Church may be liable to the cause of that Division which follows falls upon that Church which exacts those Conditions c. Here it is to be noted that your own Words Irenic p. 123 124. objected against you Rector of Sutton pag. 30. are as follow This Scil. entring into a distinct Society for Worship I do not assert to be therefore lawful because some things are required which Men's Consciences are unsatisfied in unless others proceed to eject and cast them wholly out of Communion on that account in which Case their Separation is necessary Whence I inferred that if Ministers be wrongfully ejected and wholly cast out of their publick Ministry for such things as their Consciences are not satisfied in for not conforming in unlawful or suspected Practices it becomes necessary for them to have distinct Assemblies in this case at least if there be need of their Ministry Yet I cannot find that you have one word in Answer to this That one would think either you knew not well what to say to the Case of the ejected Non-conformists or that they were so very despicable in your Eye you thought them not worth taking notice of at all Now to your Answers 1. Our church doth not cast any wholly out of Communion for meer Scrupulous Non-conformity in some particular Rites Yet whatever you say here I doubt a Man though he hath his Child lawfully baptized is not secured from the Sentence of Excommunication if he bring it not to the Church to be crossed And though a Man would joyn in the Communion yet if he be not satisfied to receive the Sacrament kneeling by the Rules of the Church he is to be debarred from the Sacrament and then liable to Excommunication for not receiving And being once excommunicated I would know what parts of publick Worship the Church allows him to communicate in Thus there seems to be little more than a Colour and Pretence in this first Answer if the Rules of the Church be followed But you further say Preface p. 74 75. 2. The Case is vastly different as to the necessity of our Separation upon being wholly cast out of Communion by the Church of Rome and the necessity of others separating from us supposing a general Excommunication ipso facto against those who publickly defame the Orders of the Church In the Church of Rome we are cast out with an Anathema Now 1. If there be a necessity of our Separation

from the Church of Rome upon account of that highest Censure of Excommunication with an Anathema and her pronouncing us uncapable of Salvation if we do not return to her Communion as you here suppose why then do you allow a Protestant to joyn in some parts of Worship in the Roman Church as in hearing Sermons c. as is plain you do pag. 108. 2. I shall not oppose you in this that the general Excommunication ipso facto in the Canons lays no Obligation till it be duly executed As you say pag. 368 369. General Excommunications although they be latae sententiae as the Canonists speak do not affect particular Persons until the Evidence be notorious c. And the Question is whether any Person knowing himself to be under such Qualifications which incur a Sentence of Excommunication be bound to execute this Sentence upon himself Yet another Question may come in here viz. supposing such a Sentence unjust though that alone would not justify Separation whether yet it may not something extenuate it You are not for extenuating at all I can bear you witness 3. And may I not say that this is answering but by Halves It never reacheth the Case of so many Ministers who have been wholly cast out of their publick Ministry It reacheth not the Case of many private Christians who have been formally and actually excommunicated for such Causes as can never be proved by Scripture to deserve such a Censure and Sentence You know that Canon of the Council held at Agatha Can. 2. Carranza fol. 159. that if Bishops excommunicated any unjustly they were to be admonished by other neighbouring Bishops And might not the Admonishers have received such into their Communion whom the other had unjustly cast out As the Council at Wormes Carrenza fol. 388. Can. 2. cut short there as I suppose Can. 14th is cited in Mr. B's Church History p. 275. § 56. saying That if Bishops shall excommunicate any wrongfully or for light Cause and not restore them the Neighbour-Bishops shall take such to their Communion till the next Synod And to my weak understanding you say nothing here to what you have Iren. p. 119 120. where you fairly clear Non-conformists but lay the Imputation of Schism upon those who require such Conditions of Communion as they cannot conform unto for Conscience-sake The very requiring of such Conditions you would have there to be no less than an ejecting Men out of Communion And therefore I should wonder if by being wholly cast out of Communion you then meant only being excommunicated with an Anathema As I doubt not but Separation is as necessary where one cannot have Communion with-out joyning in unlawful or suspected Practices as where one is formally excommunicated yea and if an Anathema were annext to the Sentence too You add 3. That Author could not possibly mean that there was an equal Reason in these Cases when he expresly determines that in the case of our Church Men are bound in Conscience to submit to the Orders of it being only about Matters of Decency and Order and such things which in the Judgment of the Primitive and Reformed Churches are left undetermined by the Law of God Here 1. Be pleased to note that as much as you seem taken with and hug this Conceit of yours as you have it once and again here and likewise in your Conferences p. 171. as if you thought it would do you Knights Service yet it remains wholly unproved that the things imposed are only Matters of Decency and Order Still I conceive that if Man only had ap●ointed such a use of Bread and Wine to signify and put us in remembrance of Christ's Body broken and his Blood shed for us it had been something more than a meer matter of Decency and Order or something worse And whether the same may not be said of the Sign of the Cross I am in doubt for they seem to be parallel And so it neither is nor ever can be proved that such Imposition of such things in the Iudgment both of the Primitive and of all Reformed Churches is allowable by God's Law and that Men are bound to submit to them whether they are satisfied about them or not 2. When you say The Author of Irenicum could not possibly mean that there was an equal Reason in these Cases I would fain know what those Words mean Irenic p. 119. cited Rector of Sutton p. 21. Let Men turn and wind themselves which way they will by the very same Arguments that any will prove Separation from the Church of Rome lawful because she required unlawful things as Conditions of her Communion it will be proved lawful not to conform to any suspected or unlawful Practice required by any Church-Governours upon the same Terms if the things so required be after serious and sober Enquiry judged unwarrantable by a Man 's own Conscience Did you not here suppose some Equality in these Cases And which way did you wind and turn your self to get off from those Arguments 3. And let me say this further How could you then possibly mean that Men should be bound in Conscience to submit to significant Ceremonies as meer Matters of Order and Decency when you so plainly distinguished them Iren. pag. 67. And say of such Ceremonies that their Lawfulness may with better ground be scrupled p. 68. cited Rect. of Sutton p. 16. Could you then possibly mean that such Ceremonies and Matter of Order and Decency were all one certainly you could not any further than you might possibly contradict your self Preface p. 76. And so much shall serve to clear the Agreement between the Rector of Sutton and the Dean of St. Paul's But if this be all you have to say they are not yet well agreed And whether there be not the like Disagreement betwixt your Rational Account and this your Impartial Account where I have compared them let the Indifferent and Impartial Reader judg Thus I have gone thorow so much of your Preface as I am concerned in As you take little notice of me in your Book I have little more to say I would not take others Work out of their hands who are by so great odds fitter for it The first place where I find Rector of Sutton cited is p. 95. There you take notice how far I say we agree with you but you over-look what follows upon it that it seems very hard that notwithstanding you break with us for things you count but Trifles yet would be Sins to us Will you grant that such as agree with you in all things necessary may not should not be debarred Communion by imposing things unnecessary Or will you assert the contrary and prove it Again pag. 98. You cite Rector of Sutton p. 35. All the Parish-Ministers a●e not near sufficient for so populous a City And can you say they are sufficient Is there no need of more Why then do you say This is but a Colour and Pretence The case