Demonstration it is either in respect of his excellencie aboue other men or the place whereof he is aboue other places But neither of these haue euer bene or hereafter can be ergo You might haue remembred the old rule Remonstrance that from insufficient enumeration of the parts or of the causes the argument doth not hold or this fallacie is of the consequent as saieth Aristotle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when you mistake the cause The lawfulnesse of his office is in regard of his superioritie grounded on the word of God and in respect of his authoritie wherewith he is put in trust by the prince and Parliament But I answere thus If the office of the seignorie be lawfull it is either in respect of the excellencie of the men or of the most illustrious and celebrated place not the first for an Artisan elder is as good and substantiall an elder as any Earle or honourable man and by their owne platforme he must sit cheeke by ioll by the noblest Erle or counseller of the land Neither the second for no place is better or worse vnto them who seeke for equalitie Non locus virum sed vir locum honestat The place giueth not credite to the man but the man to the place ergo the seignorie is not lawfull in respect of the man or place and consequently hath none authoritie or gouernment The 1. Allegation Caluin lib. 4. Institut cap. 11. sect 7. Demonstration Beza in the booke of diuorcements speaketh against iurisdiction of bishops and others substitute officers If you alleage new writers one for one Remonstrance we haue an Oliuer for a Rowland if you alleage two wee can produce twise so many Bullinger and Musculus Hemingius Gualter and Zanchus c. But our meaning is not to muster authorities or recite the names of authors Pauperis est numer are pecus Goe rather to the things then names Caluins wordes are against the papists Iurisdictionem suam spiritualem iactant Romanenses Hee alloweth in his institutions Patriarkes Archbishops and bishops in the primitiue Church Shew any impietie in the offices of ours more then in those Beza speaketh against their dealings in those causes that know more in such causes any one of them then 20. of his Assistants in Eldership but if you alleage the onely fathers and begetters of presbyteries for them we will set Ridley and Iewell for bishops as learned as these in all respects and as godly The 2. Allegation Peter Martyr vpon the 13. to the Romanes Demonstration speaketh agaynst ciuill Iurisdiction in Bishops and by the same reason condemneth it in their substitutes Peter Martyr speaketh not against any iurisdiction Remonstrance which is a furtherance but popish iurisdiction which is a hinderance to the Gospell But whatsoeuer Peter Martyr saith we say this to you Bishops in respect they are bishops in England haue no ciuill iurisdiction for the distinction of ciuill and ecclesiasticall matters is more priciselie and vpon greater penalties here retained then else-where in all Christendome If it bee said some matters they handle bee ciuill that are called ecclesiasticall wee aske whether oeconomicall matters bee not a part of ciuill wherein they are as husbandly nay niggardly as any and further demaund a rule out of Gods word of them that vrge this as a sinne whereby to know a specificall difference betweene ciuill and Ecclesiasticall causes They cannot say because some of those which Ecclesiasticall courtes here handle bee accounted else-where ciuill therefore they may not be here Ecclesiasticall for of the contrary some matters here mere ciuill are else-where holden Ecclesiasticall As for example in Geneua and Scotland they inflict censures on those which for ciuill enormious crimes the magistrat hath punished or pardoned as felons manslears such like and all their presbyteries euen that among the Englishmen at Middleborough vse to deale with qualifiyng of forfeitures of bonds and accounts betweene hard masters and their prentises and other such Chancerie matters much more therefore those may iustly be accounted ecclesiastical which the law ciuill magistrate do put ouer to ecclesiastical mē better thē those which being in truth mere ciuil are intruded vpō the presbyteries Causes beneficial viz. for titles and maintenance of Ministers causes matrimonial diffamatorie with breach of charitie where none action lieth in ciuill Courts punishment of sinnes not punishable by the ciuil Magistrate and of reparations of churches churchyards which are all the heads of matters that bishops may hādle sauing testamentarie you wil I hope allow to be Ecclesiastical As for testamentary causes euen at the common law of this land they haue bene alwaies made Ecclesiasticall both because that lawe hath litle direction in those causes but such as is borrowed from the ciuill and Ecclesiastical lawes and for that mens last wils at least were wont do conteine sundrie demises for Churches orphanes poore captiues and such like good vses whereof the Church had the fourth part and wherein Bishops are intended to be most carefull to minister right indifferently to all for performance of the deads will Any iurisdiction ciuill which Bishops or some Ecclesiasticall persons haue is not claimed by them as due to their functions but imposed by the Prince as vpon subiects seruiceable for the Realme and for a credite to their places as Counseller Ambassador Iustice of the Peace c. For seeing they are subiects freemen and citizens of the Common-wealth besides their ministerie of the Church I would knowe whether they owe not this dutie being imposed on them vnto the Common-wealth and their Prince But we shall not I trust neede to perswade much with these men for they are not so squemish of ciuill honor and function as they would then seeme whiles their malignant eies are onely fastened vpon Bishops For where they haue sway neither prince nor Magistrate shall proclaime feast or fast treate of league peace or warre with any Prince nor make any ordinance without their aduise * The example of the reuerend learned man they will haue Deputies of the Churches in Parliament when they haue shut out Bishops and they thrust their Elders and Ministers vpon Kings to sitte with their other Counsellors as was not long since practised Is any matter most ciuil euen almost of least moment determined at Geneua without Beza insomuch as when troubles increase he omitteth his readings and preachings sundry times Is he not of the counsell of 60. in that state was not Villiers Secretarie of estate to the Prince of Orenge and further if we may beleeue the Chaos de Politia ciuili ecclesiastica Lib. 3. which Law Cha. was so earnest to haue printed at Leyden ministers and persons Ecclesiasticall in that they are citizens may nay in respect they are wise learned ought to be of counsell of Princes in affaires ciuill of the Common-wealth and to giue especiall direction euen in setting vp and deposing of Princes
is simply forbidden to all Christians both in ciuill ecclesiastical gouernment Now to apply these more neerely by the authoritie the bishops haue in this realme a matter so impugned by these men It cannot be resembled vnto oeconomicall albeit in some sence a bishop is called the father of those in his charge and the husband of that church whereof he is bishop that for two causes First in that his authoritie is not contained in the straites of one familie but reacheth ouer many seuerall families and congregations of people Another for that the bishops authoritie is tied by lawes not only what not to do but he is appointed also what to doe whereas oeconomicall authoritie hath no publike lawes positiue commaunding a man howe to gouerne his familie but onely negatiue what they may not doe in that gouernment as not to wound nor kill wife childe nor seruant c. As for supreme authoritie whether Ciuill or Ecclesiasticall absolute or limited our bishops neither haue nor claime It is that which they cōdemne in the Pope by this place as well for that as successor of the Apostles he claimeth both swordes all earthly kingdomes to be his to dispose sinon actu saltem habitu as Bellarmin distinguisheth as for that in matters Ecclesiasticall he claimeth and vsurpeth not onely Seigneuriall but euen tyrannicall authoritie For he saith he may iudge all and be iudged by none may carry millions of soules to hell and none may say to him Domine curita facis Sir why doe you so may command Angels to carry and recarry soules at his pleasure may pardon sinnes past to come for so long or short a time as him listeth and in matters of Ecclesiastical liuings nay in all causes may doe what he list and therefore is iustly condemned by this place as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one exercising a Lordly absolute and tyrannous authoritie There resteth then vnto bishops of this Realme none other but subordinate or delegated authoritie which they haue partly from God partly from the soueraigne christian Magistrate From God they haue either first to plant or else to gouerne and direct Churches already planted to ordeine ministers and deacons and likewise the vse of the keies either by loosing the penitent according to Gods worde or binding the impenitent which last is done by admonition reprehension suspension excōmunication and by anathematisme The three first of which censures are with vs euen in practise common to all ministers of the word so farre as suspension is taken for debarring from the sacramēt of the supper The last two though by all practise of antiquitie in purer times they were principally and especially attributed to bishops yet not so but that other ministers of the worde vnto which the keies are annexed may not vnlawfully herein concurre with them if the lawes of the Church for weightie causes doe not otherwise dispose which they haue done here in England as I take it by reason of the sundrie ciuill effects which excommunication and anathematisme by lawe doe worke and are such as without great inconuenience and confusion cannot be permitted to euery minister in his cure that haue but slender skil no direction of lawe in this behalfe none autentique seales to certifie of record nor temporalities to be seised for not performance of the Queenes writtes that lie in such cases as de cautione admittenda de excommunicato deliberando c. And these former be the pointes wherein bishops authoritie is from God and not of man but now from the soueraigne Prince by the mediating of lawes bishops haue set downe vnto them the places where the compasse of territorie howe farre the manner howe with other circumstances of executing both the former authorities and also their iurisdiction Likewise they haue assistance of their iurisdiction sundrie waies from the Prince and lawes for the sounder execution thereof and better bridling of offenders as to burne an Heretike to imprison a person obstinately remaining excommunicate aboue 40. daies with such like Lastly they haue the heads and matters wherein their iurisdiction is occupied by and from the Christian Magistrates authoritie in whome as supreme Gouernour all iurisdiction within her dominions aswell Ecclesiasticall as Ciuill by Gods and mans lawe is inuested Such matters in this Church of England so attributed to bishops are causes of titles of benefices matters of maintenance for Ministers vpholding of Churches and Churchyardes of matrimoniall contracts and diuorces testamentarie diffamatorie where there is breach of charitie and none action lieth thereupon at the Common lawe or lastly punishing of sundrie crimes termed Ecclesiasticall being such as are not at all punishable at the Common law or els are left by lawe to be punished by either authoritie And in this respect may this part of bishoply function not vntruely be saide to be deriued from the supreme Christian Magistrates authoritie and supremacie which they haue vnder God By which may appeare both the vndutifulnes of Popish Bishops and of the factious Consistorials the first whereof deriueth their iurisdictions Ecclesiasticall within all Christian kingdomes from the Pope and the other will needes deriue theirs immediately from God and that in larger manner and in moe matters then bishops in England may any way exercise for they of the faction attribute therein no more vnto soueraigne Princes but to be gouerned in that behalfe by them and to defende the exercise thereof by their temporall sworde whereas our bishops cannot make any newe Ecclesiasticall decrees without the Princes authoritie both precedent and subsequent and in the whole course of their function are tied strictly and precisely to obseruation of due course of lawe which if either negligently or wilfully they shall violate it is remediable by appellation the last resorte wherein is to the Soueraigne Prince her selfe who heareth and finally determineth it by her Iudges delegated So that by this discourse it plainely appeareth that our Bishops neyther clayme nor yet exercise any ciuill authoritie at all as Bishops that their authoritie Ecclesiasticall is but subordinate vnder God and the Prince moderated exactly both positiuely and priuatiuely by good lawes deriued for the moste parte from the Prince and reformable by her Not supreme not absolute not tyrannicall not Seigneuriall nor Lordely according to the Rulers luste And therefore no way touched or meant much lesse by these places condemned as the Demonstrators Assumption more boldely then eyther skillfully or truely importeth But out of these groundes thus wee reason and bende the nose of the Cannon against themselues If the bishops authoritie be condemned by these two places as they would inferre then is all greater and more absolute authoritie exercised by persons Ecclesiasticall much more to be condemned But your selues doe claime and exercise greater and more absolute authoritie then the bishops namely to haue your Consistoriall iurisdiction not deriued from the Princes authoritie but supreme vnder God and that in all
causes of doctrine or manners so farre as appertaineth to conscience to make lawes and orders Ecclesiasticall without her knowledge or consent to sitte and determine as your selues iudge best without any guiding of lawes to haue your sentences once giueÌ„ to stand in force though they be appealed from vntil they be in the last instaÌ„ce reuersed to excommunicate your Soueraigne consequently to discharge your selues for that time of all actuall obedience to call your Synodes and Classies without her writte and to haue the last appellation not to runne vnto the Prince but vnto a nationall Synode All which being true notes of soueraigntie in iurisdiction are at least 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lordly or Seigneuriall if not tyrannicall ergo that which is by you claimed and exercised is in deede by Christ there condemned Neither is it the bare ciuill title of Lorde which is giuen to bishops without any authoritie in that respect that will helpe you against vs here for the Scripture giueth not lawes to wordes but to the matters themselues Yours is Lordlines in deed when you both practise these things against her Maiesties royall supremacie and will haue her to throwe her scepter downe and to licke the dust of the feete of your Church viz. your Presbyterie an epitome or representation of euery seuerall Congregation or Church The 3. Demonstration They that may not be Lords ouer Gods people much lesse may be Lordes ouer the ministers Demonstration who are aboue the people but the first is true ergo the second To the Maior The Maior with a litle more helpe will make themselues Lordes Remonstrance For I doe assure you this no Bishop is Lord ouer the people but a Lorde in respect of his owne Baronrie It is more to be aboue the people in deede then to be a Lord vnto the people in phrase of speech or obsequious worde Nowe forsooth the Ministers are aboue the people that is their betters and in authoritie ouer them as this Maior doth import To the Minor Lordlines is one thing in malam partem Lordship is another S. Peter say you forbiddeth it 1. Pet. 5.3 on whome you say we father Lordlines to be Lordes of Gods heritage 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nay Peter writeth to the bishops or gouerning pastorall Elders such as himselfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I a fellowe elder not to tyrannize ouer the flocke but to be example to the faithfull The place of Peter and your collection maketh against your selues Retortion To say ministers may haue dominion ouer the people but Ministers may not haue dominion ouer ministers that is Ministers may rule and not be ruled The drift of the place is Ministers may not tyrannize or haue absolute commaund ouer the people or ouer one another I referre me to the answere made to the second demonstration of this matter The 4. Allegation or Demonstration It is ordeined that euery mans fault must be heard Demonstra Cypr. lib. 1. epi. 3. Remonstrance where the accusers and witnesses are ergo euery Minister had authoritie ouer his flocke The Illatiue is ergo euery bishop hath his limited proper iurisdiction Cyprian complained thus Paucis desperatis minor videtur esse authoritas episcoporum in Africa Certaine desperat companions thought worse of the bishops authoritie in Afrike then else where He founde fault with those that went to Rome out of the prouince not for going out of the Parish with the cause as you insinuate The 5. Allegation Bishops in all the worlde are equall to Parish ministers Demonstrat Luth. aduer Papat à Satana fundat Remonstrance some are of better giftes which giftes cause no Lordship Luther confuteth the supremacie of the bishop of Rome Papam non esse caput christianitatis Dominum mundi And that all bishops whether of Eugub or Rome Rheg or Constantinople Alexand Tauis are equall for the ministerie and heires of the See Apostolike The 6. Allegation The Ministers in the Apostolike Church none aboue other Demonstrat Muscu â—e com de verbi minist were subiect to no Head nor President That is no vniuersall Head otherwise Musculus vpon the 20. Remonstrance of Matth. alloweth Gouernors Presidents Rulers in the church The 7. Allegation A Bishop taking the honour from the Ministers Demonstra Idem super 2. Thess 8.2 was the first steppe to Papacie That is translated from them to erect a newe Ministerie Remonstrance or an illimitable authoritie in the Church which a bishoprike vnder the Gospell is not neither of the 7. steppes to Papacie The 8. Allegation Christ did forbid the Apostles primacie and dominion Demonstraet Confess Holuet That is absolute worldly auaritious ambiti ous dominion Remonstrance not all moderate gouernment and authoritie whatsoeuer Remonstrance The 9. Allegation Equall power is giuen to all Ministers sauing for order Demonstrat Confe Hel. c. 18. Order includeth superioritie and excludeth not dignitie Remonstr Nullus dominium in episcopos vsurpauit The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator Christ 20. Demonstration Matth. 25. v. forbiddeth ambition and not dominion as Musculus doth expound Answere of the Demonstrator Caluine and others expounde it against superioritie but admitte that dominion is ambition because it causeth a man to aspire aboue his fellowe Ministers There is no witte in this misshapen answere Remonstrance with reply the obiection doth not permit so much vnto you dominion in the better part taken for rule is most contrarying to ambition It must be vniust dominion that causeth ambition as to conspire against his superior and to aspire to an higher place or seate your factious study may be called ambition The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator The Greeke worde signifieth rule with oppression Demonstration which is forbidden Answere of the Demonstrator That is not so Luke 22.25 v. vseth the single verbe to rule the sonnes of Zebedee desired not to oppresse but to rule It is certaine Remonstrance with reply one place must expounde the other the tenor of the text expoundeth all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is one and consignificant termes which is absolutely tyrannously or ambitiously to gouerne and rule or violently to rule and ouerrule or else an absurd interpretation will follow of the word 19. Act. 16. v. 19. Act. 16. v. The man in whome the ill spirite was ranne vpon the vagabond Iewes and ouercame them and preuailed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 had violent dominion and maisterie ouer them or 1. Pet. 5.3 v. not as exercising a proude dominion ouer the Lordes heritage If the worde signifie not so S. Peter should forewarne them of that which yourselues say is no fault therefore it is as cleare as noone day the children of Zebedee and the Apostles were schooled for that same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contentious and ambitious desire of ruling and that ciuilly and absolutely The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator
bene retained rather then changed for a name of so strange signification as to vnderstand an Eldership by this word Church especially Christ hauing before in an other matter vsed the very worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Matth. 5. I must then also tell you that the insinuation wrapt vp in one single worde is ouer secret and mysticall for a man to builde his faith and conscience vpon for such a solemne perpetual and necessary Cōsistories establishing that is indued with so manifold and large authorities But if it were meant that the Samplar a thing well knowen should be followed wholy then is the Eldership quite ouerthrowen For not onely the Sanhedrim had as is notorious but this Church whatsoeuer that is meant in this place must haue determination of all waightie matters aswell ciuill as Ecclesiastical That this Church here must so haue it is manifest in that this place containeth a course and processe to be holden with a brother who shall in any matter scandalize or offende them But the most offences betwixt man and man growe not vpon matter Ecclesiastical but vpon matters of this life meere ciuill causes Then by this reckoning euen vnder a Christian magistrate must the Eldership haue a set Court for all matters aswel ciuil as Ecclesiasticall as the Sanhedrim did at Ierusalem least otherwise the woundes be farre greater then the plaister can couer But this dealing in ciuill matters they seeme to detest in others howsoeuer vnderhand they will embrace it or dispense with it in themselues The Sanhedrim were ordinarie Iudges of the highest Court of that nation for all politique temporall causes besides Ecclesiastical There were 72. of it there was no more such in that land and it consisted of the high Priest other Priests Leuites and the chiefe and grauest of the people If therefore they will conforme theirs vnto this then are parish Elderships abroade and all Courts of Recorde at Westminster supped vp at once in this one Consistorie of Sanhedrim and all Ecclesiasticall men shal be for euer at libertie to meddle with matters ciuil as in their owne right which were absurde Besides the Sanhedrim made lawes as Iohn 9.22 they directed Commissions foorth as to Paul in the Actes for attaching and imprisoning which the patrones of Elderships wil pretend not to like of They had none ordination no placing nor displacing of Priestes or Leuites nor yet censures of excommunication for any thing I can yet reade sufficient to satisfie mee Shall then the Eldership haue no such authorities If it be saide the two former were corruptions First I woulde haue it prooued then I answere that Caluine maketh the whole Sanhedrim it selfe but a corruption of that state Lastly they must graunt either that Christ alluded not vnto it at all nor made it any Samplar for his Church or else made it a perfect samplar entierly and alwayes euen vnder a Christian magistrate to be followed for we finde none exceptions in Scripture Howe then it may be followed in some part and despised in an other let the first deuisers discusse The 2. Demonstration That which S. Paul enioyned the Church to do when they came together may not be done by one man Demonstrat But he commaunded them to excommunicate the incestuous person Ergo. There is an aequiuocation in the worde Doe in the Maior and it is false Remonstrance as is shewed But I distinguish vpon the Minor Paul commaunded them onely to denounce and publish not to excommunicate The wordes are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I as absent in bodie but present in spirit haue alreadie decreed and iudged as if I were present in the Name of our Lorde Iesus Christ c. from whom this braunch of his authoritie is deriued Ius excommunicandi the right of excommunication was in himselfe Howbeit the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 You being congregated or assembled together and my spirit with the power c. argueth the presence of the people a full Congregation to denounce an excommunication not the right or interest to excommunicate in all As for the presence of the people it is required now at denunciation But what were all the people here of the Presbyterie or had they none such For here all are mentioned to whom he writ How doeth this prooue the Eldership to haue such power or to be necessarie in euery Church if they had none Eldership The 3. Demonstration That which hath neede of greatest aduise and authoritie Demonstrat is not to be done by one man But so is excommunication Ergo. To the Maior Many instances may be framed to this Preaching of the Gospel Remonstrance prophecying 1. Corinth 14. ministration of Baptisme and the Lords supper supreme authoritie and iudgement of a King and many other matters of great importance cannot be done but by one man at one time To the Minor Excommunication is not greater then absolution which is also to be done by one man To saue a soule is greater then to destroy a soule and yet by the preaching of Peter being one man were added vnto the Church three thousand soules The worke of our redemption is but one mans worke the greatest worke You haue no skill of the olde rule nullum proprium datur in gradu superlatiuo And may not one mans aduise directed by lawe 5. Topic. be more sounde then an hundreth running on head and but otherwise vnlearned The 4. Demonstration They must excommunicate who are to deale in other parts of discipline Demonstrat but the other are not exercised by one Ergo neither this This is obscurum per obscurius or to begge that which is in question still This defaceth themselues Remonstrance for Deacons deale in other parts of their discipline and yet being discipliners are none of the Eldership And I neuer heard afore they might excommunicate Cathechizing preaching teaching publicke praying baptizing and celebrating the Supper blessing of marriages c. are parts of the Discipline yet exercised by the doctor alone or pastour alone To the Minor There is none of these offices which are mainteinable in our Church but may be executed by one if it shall seeme best for the commoditie and seruice of the Church The 5. Demonstration As it was amongst the Iewes so it must bee in the Church for euer Demonstrat as it appeareth by this for it is translated from them to vs as the Greeke worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being by corrupt imitation called Sanhedrim by the Rabbynes doeth import and had nothing ceremoniall in it But it was executed by the Church amongst them and not by one Iohn 9.22 Ergo the Church is to excommunicate and not one man Here the Demonstrator leaueth off his Christianitie and will become a Iewe Remonstrance and erect the Iewish policie of gouerning the Church To the Maior By the Iewes you may meane either the Iewish Synagogue or the Apostles and disciples in Iewrie The later you cannot
himselfe such applause for writing of it glorifieth himselfe as if he were riding vpon the Cherubins with Luciferian pride or as if he were to draw downe as the Dragons taile all the starres in the firmament consent of scriptures Councils Fathers old and new onely to giue light to the cause in handling And concerning other mens bookes that haue oppugned the cause he speaketh scornefully and disdainfully as of the lord Archbishop and Deane of Sarum their bookes whose learned trauailes neither T. C. W. T. I. V. nor any ecclesiasticall discipliner of them all are able to confute vnlesse to raile in all their writings and snatch at one word in 40. leaues bee to answere a booke whose vertue notwithstanding shall shine when your canckred malice shall bee dead Touching that most reuerend Prelate you and your complices may in this licentious and outragious world speake pleasurablie Neuer yet good man spake but honour of him whom her Maiestie hath graciously vouchsafed vnder her to exercise Christian iurisdiction and authoritie whose Primacie is humilitie who is for his vertue no lesse honoured then loued whose learning angreth you vnto whom if you will make answere you must studie for more learning I am verily perswaded that as God in all ages raised excellent men instruments of his glorie to confute and banish out of the Church heresie as Athanasius against the Arrians Augustine against the Donatists Augustine and Hierome against the Pelagians in former times In our latter times bishop Iewell against the false Catholikes and Semipelagians so God hath stirred vp this learned man against the false brethren and Aerians of our time to hammer and beate downe the schisme and singularitie of Puritanes And therefore I doe humbly thanke God that it hath pleased his glorious maiestie in heauen and her excellent maiestie here on earth to reserue him to these times I speake it in the feare of God had not her Maiesties principall spirite of wisedome illumined with Gods trueth together with the Heroicall prudent spirites of certaine honorable personages and industrious learned men affecting a prouident care of the posteritie of the Church patronized this Church-discipline your priuate spirites of new-fangled discipline happily had more preuailed against these godly and religious proceedings in the Church nay to the vtter remoouing of the Gospell by such confusion and Anarchie Imagine that the externall face of that Church where you might see so many thousand Superintendents so many Elderships aduanced in or aboue the Church to make orders and to censure at pleasure where the people giue voices the Laitie lay on handes the maiestie of the Prince excluded from all swaie in the presbyterie all antiquitie forlorne all Councils vtterly repealed doctrine deuided from exhortation Laie-men Deacons of the Church parish bishops parrot preachers the Vniuersities disgraced of the priuiledge of granting degrees Cathedrall Churches by greedie wolues spoiled all courtes of Iustice ouerthrowen or impaired by the Consistoriall court of Elders and as it were all the trees of the garden of Eden plucked vp to implant Sambucus the faire goodly Elders or Elder tree Or els what may be the fantasie or imaginarie forme of this reformation in matters of Ecclesiasticall gouernment They themselues skill not or when you haue supplanted or ouerturned or turned out those Ecclesiasticall Senators and gouernours which we haue whence shall the supplie bee of able gouernours from beyond the seas that is impossibilitie From your selues that is matter of difficultie From vs againe that were egregious and ridiculous follie Might it not fare with vs as it sometimes did with the Commons of the Citie of Capua the Commons bare a deadly hate to the magistrates and gouernours of the Citie Vpon a time the councell of the Citie being in consultation of their affaires one Pacunius as Liuie writeth Homo vsus malis artibus he was not the best man maketh an insurrection with the Commons and suddenly shutteth all the Magistrates into one place and with sufficient garrison keepeth the place and held them all as prisoners within giueth farther this counsell to the Commons to draw them foorth one by one and to put euery one to death and to put others in their places to create new and better gouernours of the Citie This aduise pleased them well He commaundeth in order the first to be drawen foorth to execution as a man woorthie of death euery base and tumultuarie varlet crieth out he is woorthie of an hundred deaths let him bee shortened by the shoulders The noble Senator whiles he is to lay downe his necke vpon the blocke Pacuuius as chiefe speaker pawseth on the matter Sirs before wee put this man to death it were good we did nominate another to occupie his place this noble Citie may not stand without a Senate That counsell also seemeth pleasing vnto them they streight proceed on to the nomination and election of a Senatour One man nameth one that man nameth another each man as he best fansieth maketh a seuerall nomination no sooner any man is named but a 1000. exceptions are taken to the partie the person named is thought vnwoorthy either for basenesse of his parentage or vilenesse of his trade or meanenesse of his fortunes or lacke of this or lacke of that the sedition thereupon is dissolued of it selfe the election of a new set of officers is interrupted euery one plainly seeth his owne follie and temeritie Semblablie if like power were giuen as in the Preface of your Demonstration you pray for which God forbid to shut vp into a corner our Reuerend Fathers and Ecclesiasticall magistracie and you readie vpon the change to transforme our Bishops into your Surueillants or ouerwatchers our Conuocations and Chapters into your maruelous Classicall conferences and Synodes all the whole Hierarchie of the Church into your Tetrarchie of Doctor Pastor Elder and Deacon for if you did affect 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to haue no superioritie then were you farre worse then the Capuans If I say your mortall or immortall hatred against the state ecclesiasticall caried you to extinguish this order established in the Church alreadie blessed God how would you proceed to the choice of a new Senate Ecclesiasticall and their inuestiture whiles a man might heare you say of the new Doctor or Pastor Elder or Deacon This man hath zeale but no learning that man learning but no zeale the other neither zeale nor learning such a man is factious and full of deadly poison he a base crafts-man or artisan another is auaricious and would carie away our bag T. C. will ouertoppe all or loueth the preheminences as Diotrephes each man taking exception vnto other Doe ye not foresee or rather doe you not see as in a glasse the image or bodily shape of the imagined state which you so impetuouslie striue for and we striue against and striue will in a good cause vnto the death Or what need we striue the strife will be with and within your selues when
Episcopo suo nec Ecclesiasticam disciplinam cum fide quiete iuxta praecepta Domini continerent vt relictis Domini sacerdotibus contra Euangelicam disciplinam noua traditio sacrilegae institutionis exurgat Note whether these wordes of Cyprian concerne not our times Nowe it is cleare whence T. C. his faction ariseth howe it tooke rooting howe it is hardened He and his crue haue withdrawne certaine who of good zeale professe the name of Christ from the loue and obedience of their Superior or Pastor or Bishop and haue dangerously drawne them into contempt of Ecclesiasticall discipline to breake from the faith and allegeance of the Lordes precepts that by forsaking of the Lorde his Priestes contrarie to the Euangelicall discipline they might begin a newe platforme of sacrilegious institution of their own discipline Obserue last of all that Ecclesiasticall discipline Euangelicall discipline which S. Cyprian soundeth farre otherwise then the newe Tetrarchie of Doctors Pastors Elders and Deacons discipline for it is taken for the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles Yet here of by the way we gather that such as breake foorth from the Bishops gouernment and censures as our schismatikes doe with greatest contempt that may be doe offend against the commandements and the doctrine or discipline of the Gospell and therefore a superioritie of Bishops is a diuine institution by Cyprians iudgement who liued not very long after the Apostles times I might answere Allegare non est probare Allegation is no demonstration least of all of humane authoritie And all this may be granted and nothing gained to the cause Dominus Demonstrator doeth passe away in cloudes of generalitie and concludeth not the question So that in steede of 18. demonstrations there are 18. monsters some without head some without taile some without middle others without arme all without harme not able to affright the veriest foole that is with so much as a false feare of loosing the impregnable fort of the trueth of our cause * ⎠* CAPVT SECVNDVM IN the second chapter followe certaine Maximes of their own or certaine Oracles of one T. C. tanquam ex tripode which if you will not take vpon T.C. his credite you may take it vpon the credite of 20. letters or take vnto you the whole Alphabet to make demonstrations thereby The 1. Proposition No calling is lawfull but which is directly warranted out of the worde to him that executeth it Demonstration The 2. Proposition The name and office of an Archbishop is contrarie to the worde of God The 3. Proposition No man may be ordeined to an office vntill a place be voide as he is fit for Euery one of these propositions hath a speciall aime to the vsuall intended markes of a cauilling Sophister Remonstrance The 1. is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or meere trifling Aristot de reprehens Soph. as Aristotle saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Like as a Cuckow to sing alwaies one song as in the former Chapter the Demonstrator trifleth vp and downe The 2. is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a false or starke staring lie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to make a demonstration of a lie The 3. is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a meere Paradoxe which neuer any but of this newe fantasie said before The saying is A three twisted corde will not easily breake asunder but this thrise twisted cable knappeth asunder If the Demonstrator will onely propound we may lawfully returne these propositions home againe 1. No calling is lawfull but directly warranted to him that executeth it All lay Presbyteri or vnpreaching eldership with the authoritie they attribute vnto it is vnwarranted directly by Gods worde to them that doe execute it Ergo No such calling is lawfull 2. No name of Superioritie for order and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church is contrary to the worde The name and office of Archbyshop Archdeacon Deanes are such names and offices of Superioritie Ergo No names and offices of Archbyshop Archdeacon c. are contrary to the worde 3. Paul Barnabas Epaphroditus Andronicus Iunius and others were not forth with limited to a certaine place But Paul Barnabas Philip c. were ordeined Ministers Ergo Certaine were ordeined Ministers not limitted to a place The 1. Demonstration which is a reason of this 1. redoubted Proposition If Iohn were constrained to prooue his ministerie out of the worde when the Priestes accused him Demonstration Then there is no lawfull calling but warranted in the worde but he prooued his calling Ergo no calling lawfull but which is warranted in the worde To the Antecedent This fallacie is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the consequent Remonstrance The sequele of the Antecedent is to be denyed which is in plainer termes this vz. There is no calling in the newe but is first warranted by some prophecie of the olde Testament To the Assumption But he prooued his ministerie Whether he prooued or did not prooue whether he were accused or not accused the ministerie of Iohn was a lawful ministerie their impeachment there of was not to hinder the execution of his ministerie The warrant rather is the immediate commission from heauen and the prophecie that went of him to exercise his ministerie Howe followeth the Argument à facto adius Or from their constraint to the warrantize of his calling If any proofe should be drawen for or against it can bee other in consequence then this One extraordinarie Minister did vpon occasion of those that cauilled at him prooue his extraordinarie calling out of the worde of God Then euery ordinarie Minister may against wranglers prooue his ordinarie ministerie out of the worde to be the ordinance of God Euen so doe we Or this Iohannes confessus est non negauit Iohn 1.20 Iohn did confesse and denyed not confessed who he was and denied not who hee was Euen so in humilitie we ought to doe and semblably doe Vnlesse it please you to argue after this sort out of the text These things were done in Bethany or Bethabara beyond Iordan or Iohn proued his ministerie in Bethany or Bethabara beyonde Iordan Ergo your ministerie must be proued in Bethany beyond Iordan O then your reason hath a further fetch beyond or on the other side of Iericho or Iordan Or else better after this sort Iohn exercised his ministerie and proued it too without warrantie of an outwarde calling of any that sate in Moses chaire for the people helde him for a Prophet Ergo you haue an exercise of your ministerie without an outwarde calling and may runne before you are sent and the people holde your prophecie and baptisme to be true But this will sauour strongly of Anabaptisme I trowe The 2. Demonstration The callings vnder the Gospel must haue as good warrant as the callings vnder the Law Demonstration But all callings vnder the Lawe except miraculous had direct warrant Ergo. Ridetur chorda qui semper oberrat eadem Remonstrance A
Demonstration The office which is needlesse in the Church is vnlawfull Demonstration The Archbishops office is needlesse because the ministerie is perfect without it Eph. 4.11 Ergo. Eph. 4.11 To the Maior This demonstration is rather follie then fallacie Remonstrance the Medium or proofe there is needlesse In deed lesse need of this then of that before Bare neede maketh you demonstrate after this sort your argument is but mistaken It is not à non necessario sed ab independente My answer therefore is Not euery thing seeming needlesse in humane preiudice is foorth with vnlawfull in Gods diuine iudgement To the Minor This is a most lewd affirmation in the Minor that the Archbishops office is needlesse because the ministerie is perfect without it The Demonstrator is as bold as any man and as blind as whosoeuer but boldnesse and blindnesse are the two helpes As for the reason that the ministerie is perfect without it it is an vnperfect reason For as iustly may he say the office of a Christian King is needlesse in the church because the ministerie is perfect without it This is a doubtfull clause to leaue the ministerie in speculation not in action or to consider of the being of the ministerie not of the well being of the same Let this one word serue for your answer if you will be answered The perfectnesse of the ministerie doeth not ouerturne the needfulnesse of gouernement or direction by the Archbishop I dare auouch hee knoweth not wherein an Archbishops office here consisteth That which is needlesse is vnlawfull c. Retortion of the argument The office of Church-Aldermen ouer all men and all maners is needelesse in our Church where a Christian magistracie is established alreadie and because no place of Scripture affirmeth for it Ergo it is vnlawfull in the Church and none but T.C. idest thanklesse curiositie would bring it in place Or this That which is needlesse is vnlawfull All courtes of Record as Chancerie and Common pleass c. shall be found needlesse if the Consistorie of Presbyters and Elders were set vp which is onely needfull or else full of neede in the Church or congregation of the faithfull brethren because they may determine all matters wherein any breach of charitie may be as the Admonitioner saieth Ergo all Courts of Record as Chancerie Common pleas c. by their reason will be found all vnlawfull Thus then we reason out of their owne grounds What office soeuer is needlesse idest is not necessarilie required in the Church the same is vnlawfull The Christian princes supreme gouernment in causes ecclesiasticall if wee beleeue these men is needlesse for the learned discourser who saieth the Church was most flourishing when there was no Christian magistrate T.C. saith no lesse who findeth no difference betweene an heathen and a Christian king touching the matter of intermedling in church gouernment iumping therein with Harding and other papists Ergo by this assertion the princes supreme gouernment is vnlawfull which vnsound and rebellious conclusion very necessarily followeth not only of this assertion but of infinite other their speeches Or thus The office which is needlesse is vnlawfull The hauing of an Eldership in euery congregation is needles for one Eldership in the towne serueth for the whole country belonging to Geneua where neuerthelesse they haue diuers Churches and their seuerall ministers And so in Scotland where there be but few Elderships in comparison of the seuerall congregations yet these Churches were reformed will you say Likewise the hauing of a Doctor in euery congregation and Deacons to be of the Eldership is an office needlesse for they haue them not so in France or Scotland though most of our platformers require both Ergo the hauing of an Eldership or of Doctor or Deacons to be of the Eldership in euery congregation are offices vnlawfull By which examples also appeareth the falshood of the Minor because the ministerie is perfect without those in such places and yet the Demonstrationer will not affirme the Eldership Doctor and Deacon to be needlesse The 4. Demonstration If all giftes for perfecting of the Church needfull be appropriated vnto other ministers Demonstration then is his ministerie vnlawfull But all are appropriated to those foure Ephesians 4. Pastor Doctor Elder and Deacon whereof hee is none Ergo. This Hypotheticall Syllogisme is as bad a Paralogisme as T.C. his simple Syllogisme refuted at large in the defence of the answer to the Admonition Remonstrance pag. 316. I may well call it T.C. his whirlepoole because he drowneth himselfe and his scholers in it Thus Those functions onely are sufficient for the Church which haue all gifts needfull c. But all those functions reckoned of Paul Ephe. 4. 1. Cor. 12 haue the gifts needfull ergo those functions onely are sufficient for the Church As if a man did argue thus Those things onely are sufficient to saluation which are contained in the Scripture Absurditie of T.C. and of the Demonstrator But all things in the Aue Maria are contained in the Scripture ergo those things in the Aue Maria are onely sufficient to saluation Or as cunningly after this sort Those only are men which are endued with reason But all the Costerdmongers of London are endued with reason ergo the Costerdmongers of London are the onely men Where the Maior is particular the argumentation of sole particulars and hath no force of reason the Medium or argument hath this word Onely in the Maior cum subiecto and is left out in the Minor Besides all this it concludeth affirmatiuè in the second figure against the lawe of due conclusion finally it lacketh both moode and figure and lacketh no fault To the sequele of the Antecedent The sequele is vntrue for dealing with the Church stocke thēselues say it was appropriate Act. 6. to 7. Deacons yet Act. 11. the collection was sent 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for the administration not to such as we call commonly and peculiarly Deacons but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the priests or ministers yet this not vnlawful in them To the Assumption Both sides backe and bellie turne which side you will hereof is a shamelesse vntrueth for God hath not appropriated the gifts to those 4. nor to any other 4. or 5. titles and names of offices in Church but he doeth tie and vntie conferre and bestow the gift on such an office which is fit for the commoditie of the Church in what measure he pleaseth Elders and Deacons are not once mentioned in that text therfore thus I reason If all giftes needfull for perfecting of the Church be appropriated vnto the Ministers mentioned Ephes 4. then the ministerie of Elders and Deacons is vnlawfull much lesse is it needfull for perfecting of the Church But by the Demonstrator and his customers of whom he boroweth all needfull gifts are appropriate to Apostles Euangelists Prophets nowe wholie ceased as they saye and
is vnlawfull But the congregation hath neede of vs Ergo vnlawfull Syllogizari non est exparticulari Remonstrance To be absent from one man or one particular congregation is not vnlawfull his employment being otherwise beneficiall I might reason as well thus Absurdity of the demonstrator To be absent from those who haue neede of vs is vnlawfull The church of Ephesus had neede of Timothie the church of Galathians and Corinthians neede of Paul Ergo Pauls and Timothies absence were both vnlawfull Or after this wise To be absent from those that haue neede of vs is vnlawfull The Paynims and heathen in America terra australi where no church is haue neede of vs Ergo our absence is vtterly vnlawfull This fallacion is secundum quid ad simpliciter The 15. Demonstration Demonstration If the priests might not dwell farre from the temple then the ministers may not be non Resident But the first is true 1. Chron. 28. ca. 13. v. ergo the second I may argue as substantially and as well Remonstrance If the Exchequer men must of conueniencie dwell neere to Westminster hall and the singing men of Paules neere there abouts ergo they must neuer goe out of the place The place which you alledge is Dauid gaue to Salomon a paterne of the courts of the house of God and for all the chambers round about which serue for the treasures of the house of God and for the treasures of the dedicate things and for the courses of the Priestes and Leuites Now the later may expound the former ergo the Priestes and Leuites waited in their courses It proueth not an indefatigable or continuall howrely attendance You deale hardly to make them de genere affixorum or to naile them to a place The 16. Demonstration or Allegation Let no Clerke be placed in two charges for it is filthie merchandize Demonstra Concil Nic. c. 15. c. No man can serue two Maisters Let euery one tarrie in the place where he is called The olde prouerbe is now verefied 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remonstrance Like egge like birde like master like man T.C. the maister misalledged the Councell and so doeth V. D. his yeoman See the 247. pag. of the Defense of the answere to the Admonition These men to euict their purpose will not refuse omne genus testium etiam ab inferis viz. the most blasphemous corrupt and depraued the 2. Councell of Nice which to bleare mens eies withall they call simply the Councell of Nice Out of this Councell they may proue adoration of reliques inuocation of Saintes worshipping of images with the same worship that the Trinitie is worshipped if they wil take farder serious counsel in the cause I may say of them as Seneca said of a wanton Poet Non ignorauit sed amauit sua vitia they cannot be ignorant but they loue their owne faults and errors Let no man c. in the ende of the canon in Regia ciuitate be placed in moe great cities then one In other towneships and villages it is lawful and so Gratian expoundeth Caus 20. quaest 1. Clericus and the Councell of Chalcedon and the glose A man may be intituled to two Churches if they be poore and with dispensation or by way of trust or Commendam As for allegation 6. Matth. No man can serue two maisters that is contrarie Masters God and Beliall God and Mammon For the other place 1. Cor. 7. Let a man tary in his vocation that is his kinde of vocation not in the locall place These fallacies are fallacies figurae dictionis This therefore must be the meaning of the place Let no man c. without abilitie to discharge them both be placed in two charges or let no man make a filthie lucre of his charge The 17. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstration Damasus compareth them that set ouer their charges to harlots that put out their children Concil com 2. c. to nurse to giue themselues to more pleasure This man heard T. C. say it was in the second Tome of Councels Remonstrance which is in the first See what it is to take euery thing by heare-say Damasus in his epistle speaketh against Chorepiscopi which occupied the place of their bishoprikes some part of their office as consecration of Priestes Deacons and Virgines imposition of handes dedication of Churches who were both insolent themselues and made others their bishops liue in pleasure and idlenes This concerneth nothing honest learned and sufficient Curates If you thinke your owne wife or any other onely for putting out their children within the compasse of an harlot you are within the compasse of a iealous headed foole It were more reasonable to iudge her so if she were with childe before you maried her The 18. Allegation or Demonstration It was ordeined that none Demonstra either Bishop or Elders should goe from Citie to Citie Theodor. l. 1. c. 9. The place is in the Ecclesiasticall historie of Theodoret Remonstrance albeit you quote it not Theodoret speaketh of Eusebius Nicomediensis an Arrian who leauing Nicomedia Ad sedem Constantinopolitani Episcopatus per ambitum arrepsit idque contra Ecclesiae canonem qui vetat tum Episcopos tum Presbyteros de vnius ciuitatis sede ad alterius sedem transferre who translated himselfe by sute and ambition from one Church to another for as it is in the same Theodoret Cùm ei Beryensis Ecclesiae administratio concredita esset inde ad Nicomediae Episcopatum gerendum se transtulit where he was Gouernour of the Church of Beria he translated him selfe to Nicomedia and from the bishoprike thereof to Constantinople leaping from Church to Church by sute after the promotion and contrarie to the Canon of the Church which forbiddeth ambition and sute both vnto Priestes and Bishops and translation from one See to another of their owne heades without a cause allowed by their Superiors according to the seuerall orders of euery Church The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator Two parishes may be vnited ergo one may haue charge of them Demonstrator when they are two or diuided Answere of the Demonstrator One sheepheard may keepe one flocke being great but not two flockes being litle going in diuerse pastures That is falsly answered Remonstrance with replie for Iacob in the 30. Genes kept Labans and his owne flocke of sheepe and put them in diuerse pastures As for the obiection when they are diuided his paines are the greater he must repaire to them but in the vnion whatsoeuer is the distance they must repaire to him except it be otherwise especially prouided The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator Parishes were diuided by men by the Monke Denys Pope of Rome Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator That is vntrue for the Apostles in the Actes diuided the Churches into Congregations Nay that is more vntrue This is as the Schoolemen speake 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
Christ saith not No man shall be so but he that will be so desiring it Answere of the Demonstrator Demonstra Luke saith Let the greatest be your seruant ergo that is a shift Though our Sauiour say Remonstrance with reply Vos autem non sic and in Luke Let him be your seruant the one doth represse the humour of ambition the other clause doth expresse Christian humilitie Christ was as their seruant 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet had he superiour authoritie ouer them Assertion of the Demonstrator A Bishop should be resident in euery Congregation Demonstration The 1. Demonstration If a Bishop and a Minister be all one then must there be a bishop in euery Congregation but they are one for S. Paul describeth them and their qualities all one ergo The Antecedent I admit Remonstrance if they be simply and absolutely all one To the Assumption We will not denie but the wordes Episcopus Presbyter Minister Pastor may notifie all one thing or sometimes taken for all one in describing one and the same thing improperly taken But in their more proper acceptance a bishop and a Presbyter must signifie distinct things both in office and in dignitie This is a flat aequiuocation to say Presbyter or pastoral elder signifieth principally an inferiour minister ergo it must notifie as properly and principally a bishop and a minister As for your wittie reason the bishop and minister haue one qualitie ergo are one thing although I might answere you some of those qualities are not of pure necessitie affixed to the bishop or minister as to be the husband of one wife yet your answere shall be all these are not formall accidents and doe not properly distinguish As for the qualities of yemind they make not special difference of offices in the Church It followeth not because they were a while in the foundation of the Church all one that therefore they doe stil in all respectes continue all one being changed euen in the Apostles times But thus we retort If Presbyter and Episcopus be all one then he that is not episcopus cannot be termed Presbyter idem numero sunt maximè idem conuertuntur but your Lay elders are not episcopi ergo they are not Presbyteri no Elders at all nor so to be termed The 2. Demonstration S. Paules Bishops and Deacons were appointed for one place Demonstration S. Paules Deacons were in euery Congregation Philip. 1. Act. 6.2 and continued longer then the Bishops Athan. 2. Apolog. Hierom. cont Lucifer ergo there ought to be a Bishop in euery Congregation Vnlesse you meane place to be a Congregation in the Maior there are 4. termini in the whole Syllogisme Remonstrance To the partes S. Paules Bishops and Deacons c. This is a false copulatiue and maketh a fallacie of things that are separated true not conioined true by fallacious composition The multiplicitie of the meaning breedeth aequiuocation as before viz. a bishop which is an ouerseer of the flocke whome we call Presbyter or Pastor or Priest and the Deacons are for one Congregation And a bishop who is aboue a Pastor or Priest must be but ouer one Congregation the former is true the later is false Episcopus is a worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of many significations S. Paules bishop is in both significations To the Minor The Apostles did the office of Deacons for a time That they continued longer then Paules bishops it is false sith the equitie of the offices continueth still whether you take them for inferior ministers or distributers to the poore they haue neuer discontinued Vnto the place of Athanasius and Hierom which you do not cite but aime to euery way and no way I haue nothing to say but this Athanasius in the 2. Apolog. defuga sua hath written nothing to countenance your assertion you doe the better to quote nothing And for Hierome there he doth proue that Deacons and Priestes in that Church did baptize being authorized from the bishops who gaue an imposition of handes or confirmation after they had baptized The 3. Demonstration That which Paul commanded Titus Demonstration is to be practised in like case But he commanded him to ordeine Elders which is Bishops Tit. 1.5 ergo they must be in euery place This is strange to refort to this place of Titus which maketh for superioritie Remonstrance and against equalitie of ministers To the Minor Elders all pastorall Elders are in generalitie of signification bishops that is ouerseers all bishops are not inferiour pastorall Elders The answere is before the worde Episcopus and Presbyter are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of many significations The 4. Allegation or Demonstration Euery Church should haue her communion table and bishop Demonstr Ignat. ad Philodelph epist None better then Ignatius distinguisheth the orders His meaning is of an ouerseeing Pastor Remonstrance or where it is expedient to haue a chiefe bishop This allegation is answered cap. 13. The 5. Allegation or Demonstration Where any was found woorthy to be a Bishop there they appointed a Bishop Demonstration where there was not to furnish a bishop and an elder hee meaneth the Doctor there the Apostles made the bishop and left the Elder How iniurious is the Demonstrator to Epiphanius Remonstrance who disputeth against Aerius heresie Erat sermo Aerij furiosus magis quà m humanae conditionis quid est episcopus ad Presbyterum vnus or do vnus honor vna dignitas It was Aerius reasonlesse or furious rather then reasonable maner of speach What is a bishop better then a pastorall elder or priest there is but one order of both like honor both one dignitie With what face can he produce Epiphanius for equalitie who saith a bishop cannot rebuke an elder but because he hath authoritie ouer him Now for Epiphanius his words are otherwise and the Demonstrator either obliuious or neuer read Epiphanius Cum autē multitudo non esset non inuenti sunt inter eos qui presbyteri constituerentur had not the supplie of many priests or pastorall elders They were contented onely with a bishop vntil they might haue complete number of such elders ouer whom the bishop caried his superior hand of authoritie Finally Epiphanius did not so much as dreame of this elder to be there an ordinarie Doctor sith Presbyter with him is but an inferior Pastor What Chamaeleon with changeable colours is our Demonstrator An elder in this new Tetrarchie sometimes is a parish bishop elsewhere an Alderman gouerning his ward other times a graue and profound Doctor all which to sweare with them Epiphanius must be forced The 6. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstr 2. Conc. Carth. 1. Tom. ca. 10. If a bishop run into slander and many bishops cannot suddenly bee gathered the cause must be heard of 12. bishops You may bee ashamed to alleage that Councill to confirme your parish bishops Remonstrance which distinctly setteth downe
the authoritie of Metropolitane dicecesan bishops as also of Presbyter and bishop in the same canon The 7. Demonstr 3. Conc. Carth. Allegation or Demonstration If an elder be accused he may call 6. bishops from the place hard by These are fractions and not distinct demonstrations Remonstrance Your allegation hath an answer before The paucitie or fewnesse of our BB. doth not make against the multitude of theirs therefore this demonstration serueth you to no vse The 8. Demonstr Euseb li. 5. ca. 16 Socrates 4.26 Quest 16. dist 50. Theod. li. 5. c. 4. Allegation or Demonstration Stories make mention of one Sotichus bishop of village of Cuman Of one Mares of Solicha Gregorie of Nazianzum a small Citie Bishop of a castle The towne or place of their See might be litle their iurisdiction great Remonstrance I know not whether it be your or your Printers fault Theodoret remembreth one Mares of Dolicha as for the bishop of Solicha and the bishoprike of that God send all the packe of you no better bishoprikes Dorchester was once the bishops See of Lincolne Shirburne of Sarum Selsey of Cicester Thetford of Norwich Cridie of Excester c. yet the iurisdictions and dicecesses as large as now and some of them much larger The 9. Allegation A minister Demonstr Hier. ad Euagr. super Titum ad Oceanum that is to say a bishop A minister and a bishop all one to Titus With the ancient fathers bishops and ministers all one I must remember you what is said also in the same place Remonstrance Presbyter episcopus aliud aetatis aliud dignitatis Non dico de presbyteris non de inferiori gradu ad episcopos venio Priest a name of age Bishop of dignitie and office Priest an inferiour degree other where priests supplie the Apostles place the bishop supplieth Christes place Be your owne remembrancer in the epistle to Oceanus the drift of Hierome is to shew a difference oddes betweene Deacon and Priest because of certaine who made the Deacon equall to the Priest and yet for all that alway the preheminence of the bishop before the Priest Nam Alexandriae à Marco Euangelista vsque ad Heracliam Dionysium episcopos presbyteri semper vnum ex se electum in superiori gradu collocatum episcopum nominabant Euen from Marke the Euangelist downward to his time the bishop of Alexandria had a superior degree aboue the pastorall elders The 10. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstr D. Barns Acts Monum fol. 216. in the 6. art I will neuer beleeue one can be bishop ouer two or three cities or a whole countrey by the law of God I know not whether he saith so or no but if he haue read and remembred that Titus was bishop of Candie Ignatius of Syria Remonstrance with infinite moe out of the Fathers and Councils he would bee of another beliefe Many things slipped such men vpon hatred to popish bishops The 11. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstr Hooper super 8. comm pa. 90. The office of a bishop is degenerate In the primitiue Church they had no bishops as we haue He speaketh of bishops vnder the Popedome Remonstrance or els the speach might very well be spared his words are If the fourth part remaine to the bishop a third part to the teachers two parts to the poore one part to the souldiours it were better bestowed c. then it is bestowed now None of our bishops haue a fourth part vpon the diuision of all the ecclesiasticall reuenues of his dioeces and therefore no cause herein to assigne a fault in the diuision But if there might be as bishop Hooper thought a more equall diuision what is this to prooue a bishops authoritie in euery Pastor of a parish The eleuenth Chapter Assertion of the Demonstrator THere must be Doctors in the Church Demonstration which is an office different from a Pastor The 1. Demonstration That which the Apostles doe distinguish are distinct but the Apostles distinguish Doctours from Pastours 12. Rom. 7. Eph. 4.11 v. as he doeth distinguish man from woman Gal. 3.28 v. Ergo To the Minor The Apostle maketh distinguishment of giftes Remonstrance not of offices in the first two places albeit distinct giftes and offices yet coincident in one The Apostles did exhort they did teach Actes 2. Peter and Actes 7. Steuen Paul a Doctor and yet spake the word of exhortation Of euery action or qualitie groweth not a separable office and function perpetuall in the Church There are certaine who must distribute Absurditie of the Demonstrator shew mercie prophesie gainsay and stop the mouthes of the gainsaier ergo there are seuerall and set offices officers so many in number as are qualities numbred But the Demonstrator saith distinguished as man and woman Gal. 3. v. 28. S. Paul maketh no distinguishment but a combination or connexion of all in Christ he saith not there is bond there is free male and female but neither male nor female c. The Demonstrator had this obiection for the acception of a copulatiue in that place to the Galathians out of the Fenny water of the Country-poison but the good soule vnderstood it not The meaning was that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the copulatiue maketh a distinction betweene Doctor and Pastor Eph. 4. as it doeth Gal. 3. distinguish betweene male and female But how like those two places are the one to the other to make any such shew I would those that haue but a smacke of Greeke or of any iudgement would consider The 2. Demonstration As the gifts are diuers Demonstration so the offices but the giftes of Doctor and Pastor are diuers 1. Cor. 12. as also experience teacheth Ergo To the Maior Diuers gifts make not diuers offices Remonstrance many gifts go to one facultie science office gift of memorie subtiltie to penetrate betweene the cause and the effect iudgement action eloquution to an Orator One man may be better able to diuide his text another to perswade and yet an office of a preacher To the Minor Though they be sundry giftes yet are they not sundered into seuerall offices Apollos was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 eloquent and yet full of forcible perswasion Act. 18. but you could not haue a more probable place against the making of the Pastor and Doctor two seuerall offices then this of the 1. Cor. 12. for the same officers are here reckoned vp that are in the 4. to the Ephesians and yet no mention here of Pastors but onely Doctors which argueth that vnder the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Doctors Pastors be also contained for els were the diuision vnperfect and the Doctor might better then the Pastor haue bene omitted whome you make not so necessarie as Pastor The 3. Demonstration They who are to take a diuerse course are diuerse The Pastor is to exhort Demonstration the Doctor to attend doctrine
answered before cap. 1. not to concerne any pollicie of Elders Remonstrance but to keepe the general commandement of the lawe of the spirite of life they might as well say that the commaundement to drinke no water were meant by that place The holie ghost hath there warily vsed the singuler number 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which nowe you woulde make to pertaine to the perpetuitie of euerie thing conteined in that Epistle if it did so yet could it not helpe you for there is no such commandement for anie such Elders in that whole Epistle no nor anie mention by the way of them The 17. Demonstration That which is in euery ministers commission must be in euery congregation Demonstration But the ordination and practise of this office Mat. 28.20 is so or els they ordeined elders without warrant from Christ Ergo they must be in euery congregation Ex nihilo nihil fit Of nothing commeth nothing Remonstrance This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a great space betwene these two go 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 make Disciples or teache all nations Ergo make vnpreaching Presbyters in all nations This the Demonstrationer made the Ministers Commission afore and is it nowe the Commission for vnteaching Elders to be ordained in euery place The reason of the Minor is false for neyther made they any such Elders in euery congregation neither doeth their authoritie for ordinations and sundry other points of Church-gourernment depend only vpon that Commission which respected the ministery of the word and Sacraments The 18. Demonstration Where a Bishop must be Demonstration Elders must be A Bishop must be in euery Congregation Ergo Elders This Demonstration is no guest but an ordinarie seruant Remonstrance for this serueth your turne often 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The one of these is no better knowne then the other there must be parish Bishops Ergo parish elders And it followeth not by any coherence any more then this There must bee a Constable in euery towne Ergo 24. Aldermen The 19. Demonstration If the Apostles established one vniforme order in al Churches Demonstration then there must be Elders in euery congregation but the first is true Ergo the second For S. Paul saith thus I teach in all Congregations To the Antecedent This is the fallacie of consequence Remonstrance The Apostles did stablish vniformitie for essentiall points of discipline but left not any policy for Lay elders The consecution of the maior is false Can there be none vniformity except such your Elders were euery where appoynted who indeede were nowhere To the Assumption S. Paul might very well leaue all pointes of wholesome doctrine all good order for the Church but neuer institute the particularities of your discipline The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator God hath giuen soueraigne authoritie ouer the Church to Christian Magistrates Demonstration which these Elders would abridge Answere of the Demonstrator No more then the eldership in Dauids time did abridge Dauids soueraignty ouer all Israel for his gouernment is temporall theirs is spirituall O foolish answere Remonstrance and fond conceite of an imaginable Elderdership in Dauids time who can abide this Master Elders haue spirituall gouernment but Kings and Queenes noursing fathers and mothers of the Church haue but ciuill and temporall gouernement onely ô tempora ô mores or as the learned discourse saith The prince is but a feeling member of the church the heads and chiefe gouernors are the ecclesiasticall Aldermen or presbyterie of the Church That yours abridge the Queenes soueraigntie is a little touched afore and shall more plainlie be shewed when you are at leasure to heare The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator Demonstration Gualt 1. Cor. 5. denieth the presbyterie to be needfull vnder a christian magistrate Answer of the Demonstrator Gualter denieth excommunication to be lawfull vnder a Christian magistrate He is as partiall as D. Whitgift It may be Gualter and others may denie it to be of the essence of a Church or rash excommunication Remonstrance with reply then the which nothing is more Anabaptisticall or where hope of repentance is he is not partiall nor he that taketh part in a good cause As for Gualters opinion if hee vtterly denie excommunication Pro Coelio Nolo cuiusquam fortis illustris viri vel minimum erratum cum maxima laude coniungere But it is vntrue to say he simplie denieth it or if hee did erre herein doth he therefore erre in the other But if you can so soone shake off Gualter in this point for his errout as you fansie in the other then may we also reiect Caluin in a matter whereof he was first father for his error against the lawfull supremacie of Christian princes in causes ecclesiasticall The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator Demonstration The Prince hath the authoritie which the Elders had Answer That is no truer then to say the Prince hath authoritie to preach which he must see done The Eldership you say may make ecclesiasticall lawes Remonstrance with replie may censure and excommunicate In taking these from the Prince to be done by her Delegates doe you not denie her Supremacie as for any ordaining shee may euen as well as your Eldership doe it but God forbid shee should claime it as they very absurdly doe HIErgo by this grosse position the prince must waite in euery place to see the elderships their dueties done but it is certaine Ex quolibet sequitur quidlibet in maintaining this imagination as for the Prince to see it done by your Elderships is a seruilitie and no soueraigntie especially when you say and T.C. before you that the princes must subiect them selues and submit their scepters and throwe downe their crownes before the Church and for the Church you roundly interprete the Presbyterie Absurditie of the Demonstrator Princes must lieprostrate to the Presbyterie And if your Elderships in deede haue this authoritie by their right in causes ecclesiasticall which the Prince must but see done then doe not they slaunder you which say you giue to the Prince potestatem facti non iuris and so yeelde her iust as large a supremacie as the Papistes doe Demonstrations to proue the eldershippe necessarie vnder Christian princes as in the Apostles time The 1. Demonstration The lesse able the ministers are to direct in godlines Demonstration the more neede they haue of Elders but ministers nowe vnder Christian magistrates are lesse able by reason of ease and peace Ergo. To the Maior Nay the more neede they haue of preachers and labourers in the haruest Remonstrance the more neede of discreete ouerseers not those pragmaticall busie-body elders To the Minor Doe not say that Salomon forbiddeth you say the dayes are worser nowe rather then the dayes of olde for that were a foolish thing Our dayes are blessed dayes blesse God for them This fallacie is secundùm non causam vt
Demonstration If no particular Congregation haue priuiledge greater giuen then other Demonstrat then must eyther no Eldershippe be at all or else in eurie Congregation But euerie Congregation hath like priuiledge because it is a perfect bodie Ergo To the Assumption No Congregation hath anie priuiledge for Eldership Remonstrance and yet is a bodie perfect of it selfe To adde anie thing to the perfection of Arte is curiositie to the perfection of nature monstruousnes as for the Charter of the priuiledge of your Eldership you haue not shewed it Let our Syllogisme be this If euery Congregation haue like priuiledge then euery one or none must haue Doctors But euery one neede not but where it may be as you say Ergo none must haue a Doctor or else your owne collection is foolish The 4. Demonstration The same warrant that is for an Eldershippe in one place is the warrant to haue it in all Demonstrat for GOD tyeth it not to Churches in cities but to the Churche But there is a warrant to haue in some Ergo in all To the Maior You say the verie trueth Remonstrance for your Consistoriall Eldership is warranted in no place as for pastorall Eldershippe it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 expounde it howe you will for towneship or citie although Paul and Barnabas ordeyned them Actes 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through Iconium Lystra c. for the commoditie of the Church To the Minor The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your fansied Eldership appeareth in no place If any man be contentious for it as for a diuine institution the Churches of God haue receiued no such custome for 1550. yeres together The Assertion That the Eldership is perpetuall Demonstration The 1. Demonstration If the causes why Christ would haue an Eldership be perpetual then is the thing it selfe perpetuall but the causes vz. to gouerne the Church by the rules of the worde Ecclesiastically are perpetuall Ergo. The Antecedent is true if all the causes be perpetuall Remonstrance but here is mention onely of the finall cause But a man may atteyne well to the ende of gouernment Ecclesiasticall and peace of conscience without the complot of this Eldership Ergo all this is but a strong imagination Why man cannot the Church be gouerned by the rules of the worde vnder no kind of persons gouernment but of such an Eldership The 2. Demonstration If Christ bee the authour and left it by his Apostles to be established Demonstration then it is perpetuall But Christ is the Authout in that hee gaue giftes for the particular members and the whole bodie thereof So it appeareth 1. Cor. 12.12 And the Apostles not going beyonde their commission established it Ergo it is perpetuall To the Maior It is not necessarily true Remonstrance for Christ by his spirite was the Authour of that which the Apostles established for absteining from blood and strangled yet was not this perpetuall To the Minor The very place which you meane but quote wrong vz. 1. Cor. 12.12 and afore neither prooueth anie giftes giuen to the particular members of any such eldership nor to the whole bodie of it the place is as the body is one and hath many members al the members of that one body being many is but one body so Christ What doeth this proue any giftes giuen either to the particular members or whole bodie of your Eldership The giftes that a litle afore are reckoned to be seuerally giuen to seueral persons are The worde of wisedome the worde of knowledge faith giftes of healing the working of great or miraculous workes prophesie discerning of spirites diuersitie of tongues and interpretation of tongues If enery of these be a seuerall gift for a seueral officer in your Elderships then in steede of three vz. Doctors Pastors and Elders for I think you now haue learned of the French discipline to exclude Deacons you haue nine officers in al. To runne ouer therfore but those officers you are hitherto agreed on which of these seuerall giftes shall the pastour haue which the Doctour and which the Elders He that hath the worde of wisedome shall he not haue the worde of knowledge nor faith and he that hath faith the last of these three shall he be knowne by it as by a specificall difference from the rest and haue neither of the other and hee that hath knowledge shall he neither haue wisedome nor faith Here you had neede to haue Ariadnes threede to winde your selues out of this Labyrinth and how will ye accommodate the other sixe giftes and to whom the most whereof if not all are long agone ceassed I knowe you cannot shew an ocular demonstration of these sixe giftes remaining and atchieued not by industry but without all ordinary meanes as it was then in any Eldership or Synode in the world nor euer shal be able if you liue out Methuselah his yeeres You see then the grosse absurdities that followe your appropriating and tying of seuerall giftes to your seuerall and peculiar officers yet is it almost the onely reason in substance which with a little diuersitie of dressing you serue out in twentie seuerall dishes And you may with confusion of faces acknowledge your licentious boldenesse in abusing the Scriptures both here and elsewhere to make shewe of seruing your turnes Which ariseth hereof that you bring not your senses to the scripture but draw the Scripture that is not of priuate interpretation vnto your owne fantasticall senses and vnderstandings The 3. Demonstration Whatsoeuer is commanded and neuer repealed the Church must receiue that as perpetuall But such is the gouernment of the Church by the Eldership Demonstration in that S. Paul mentioneth them and are to be esteemed as commandements of the Lord. 1. Cor. 14.37 Ergo To the Maior One instance vndoeth this to absteine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from strangled Remonstrance was a commandement neuer repealed yet not binding vs nor perpetuall To the Minor That is not the meaning of S. Paul Whosoeuer is a Prophet or spirituall let him acknowledge that the things which I write vnto you are the Lords commandements what for a presbytery or eldership where is any such commandement in S. Paul if it be we embrace it as the Lords The wordes alleadged are spoken of those Prophesyings in course by any Christian to whom it was reueiled which was an vse of the primitiue Church yet not retained now in any the reformed Churches and is condemned euen by our Consistorials in the Barrowists a broode of their owne hatching At Geneua Caluin once erected such prophesyings at which a learned Phisition woulde often speake against the course of the doctrine of Predestination in that sort as Caluin taught it whereupon Caluin caused that Exercise to be strangled in his swadling clothes so that a more pregnant place could not be brought to proue some commaundements of Christ vnto the first Church to be such as cannot be
and be idle and busiebodies if they may haue maintenance This Eldership is no vocation by the worde of God and therefore burdensome to the Church But if the Church be not bound to mainteine them then they are none of those Elders that are worthie double honour 1. Tim. 5. For by double honour liberall mainteinance is there chiefly vnderstood as the reasons annexed and circumstances of that place doe import The 4. obiection of the Demonstrator It bringeth in a newe Popedome or tyrannie in the Church Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator It is blasphemie to terme the gouernment so for shall wee not yeelde our obedience to the Scepter of Christ Nay it is a name full of blasphemie Remōstrance with reply and the mysterie of Antichrist to call the bable of their Eldership as they describe it by the name of the Scepter of our blessed king and Sauiour Iesu Christ and to challenge to themselues the obedience due to our Lorde Christ Nay if many Antichrists be worse then one and many tyrants more intoilerable then one then this to tyrannize in the conscience by many Elderdomes and Popedomes is Mysterium iniquitatis which doeth aduaunce against Christ Hath Christ no Scepter to gouerne his Church by but in their hands Doe all denie Christ to be their king that refuse or haue not your Elderships With what face can you deny Barrowes conclusions that yeelde him these premisses to conclude by The 5. Obiection of the Demonstrator It is a kinde of Donatisme to challenge such authoritie ouer Princes Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator It is flatterie to suffer Princes to doe what they list This is Gualters obiection an enemie to discipline Gualter is no enemie to discipline Remonstrance with reply but to Anabaptisticall discipline As for this discipline in vse it is no flatterie of Princes but if your Assertion might sway we should haue flat rebellion and insurrection against al Christian Kings especially against the sacred Maiestie of our most gracious and glorious Prince What can the Papists imagine of greater waight to be holden from them then the Scepter kingdom of Christ as you do And you are as tickle headed and handed being discontented as they are The 6. Obiection of the Demonstrator It taketh away the Princes authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator No more then it did from Dauid in his time not so much as the Bishops do now for the Prince requireth but this to see the Church well ordered which the Eldership alloweth and craueth There was no such Eldership in Dauids time Remonstrance with reply Ergo no comparison betweene this and that time But this impeacheth her Maiesties Prerogatiue and preeminence giuen by all the Peeres Lords Spirituall Lords Temporall the Commons in the lower house Conuocation house to set vp a Consistorie ouer all causes and persons yea ouer herselfe For these men dreame that all sheaues must bow to their sheaues which God forbid for they are a quintessence of Eldership aboue Sunne and moone aboue the Imperial firmament It is a slander to say not so much as Bishops for Bishops haue none authoritie of iurisdiction but deriued from the Prince vnto whose regall authoritie of the crowne all commaunding superioritie is annexed But you claime other and farre greater as elsewhere is shewed The 7. obiection of the Demonstrator It transformeth the state of the Cōmon wealth into a meere popularitie Demonstrat and wil alter this gouernment Answere of the Demonstrator No for what damage commeth by this discipline to the Magistracie from the office of the Prince to the Headboroughes Because the Prince must gouerne after their direction Remonstrance with reply as the learned discourse doth say The Prince shal be but a feeling member not an head or supreme gouernour of the Church Princes must cast downe their Crownes and submit their Scepters to the scepter of the Presbyterie nay which is more odious as T.C. doth apply must licke vp the dust of their feete that is of the Church which is the Presbyterie Because her Maiestie must not onely be directed by the regencie of the Eldership but vpon their iudgements corrected also They will make lawes call Synodes haue the last appellation and many such like as hath bene afore touched Finally because her Maiestie hath neither dispositiue not cōsultatiue voice she may not be priuie what the Presbyterie doeth by her owne presence or by sending her Attorney with many moe as they shall heare The 8. Obiection of the Demonstrator It will send contention and partialitie in iudgement Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator Where can it be greater then in the Bishops kingdome Yes forsooth greatest of al in the Tetrarches Popedom Remonstrance with reply But this is but to answer with recriminatiō or reaccusing one another Verily as for the Bishops ministerie it is no kingdome neither your kingdom or tetrarchie any ministery They are gouerned by lawes in al their proceedings but you wil haue selfe wil and law of your owne minde blasphemously father it vpon scripture and Gods word and so you do all most absurd and vnequal decrees of your elderships as in many particulars where they reigne is shewed The 9. obiection of the Demonstrator It wil be contemned and so good order neglected Demonstrat Answere Nay God wil procure awe to it It is the Bishops pompe and officers which deserue contempt But before in the 4. it was tyrannie Remonstrance with Reply here contemptible these are contrary God will not honour those that honour not him or who with a newe inuention glorifie themselues If the Bishops are in contempt you are the men that contemne Fastum Platonis maiore fastu As for tyrannie and contempt they are seated well in you For Psal 12. When Impij circumquaque obambulant quando exaltantur vilitas filijs hominum the worde in Hebrew is Zuloth When your Elders shal be exalted and ride vpon the Cherubims when the many or baser sort doe tyrannize it will be a contemptuous tyrannie in deede The 10. obiection of the Demonstrator All alterations be dangerous Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator Neuer from Antichrist to Gods obedience this might be Stephen Gardiners Argument All alterations are dangerous Remonstrance with reply where thinges are religiously established as with vs. As for Stephen Gardiner hee made arguments De vera obedientia which you nor T.C.I.P. nor any Papist who alike with you impugne supremacie of Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall can euer answere De mortuis nil nisi bonum pascitur in viuis liuor post fata quiescit So it should be The Assertion The Church must be ruled by the rules of Gods worde c. and not by the cursed and monstrous Canon lawe Demonstration The 1. Demonstration All gouernours are to execute their authoritie by the same warrant from which they haue it But the gouernours of the Church
Rabbyn of you all Alas the Iesuites desire no better match then to haue a Puritane come to reason with them they are so farre to seeke in the controuersies I am assured more sounde arguments may be drawen out of that Lawe against the Pope and Poperie then three of the best of our Puritanes can bring out of all their readings Gentiletus a Protestant lawyer hath confuted the Tridentine Council euen out of the Decrees of Gratian. The 8. Demonstration That which destroyeth the Church Demonstra cannot be good to rule But the Canon lawe destroyeth it for it crosseth euery faithfull Minister in discharge of his duetie Ergo. Hinc illae lachrymae Remonstrance Lex non est posita iustis there is no lawe but for lawlesse men If all the olde Canons and course of law were gone then you were safe ynough you and your Elders would be Popes in your owne Parishes And is in deede the Church destroyed when any of you be crossed in your maner of discharging your Ministerie The Church I perceiue with you hath many significations The 9. Demonstration That which hath bread more traiterous Papists in England Demonstrat then the Seminaries of Rhemes and Rome cannot be good but the Canon law c. Ergo. This is a seditious and franticke Paradoxe Remonstrance well you shall haue somewhat for the making your credite shal be in the next Demonstration none shall beleeue you Belike they were conuerted to Poperie by the studie of the Canon lawe euen as like as if a man woulde say that your discipline is able to conuert from Poperie to the Gospel The 10. Demonstration That which nourisheth the hope of Antichrist to come in againe Demonstrat cannot be good But the Canon lawe for it keepeth the cages of these vncleane birds as Archbishops Lord bishops Arches Cathedral Churches Ergo. This birde would sing in a Bridewell cage Remonstr if he be not caged in another maner of cage or deplumed rather for libelling against Iudgement seates and Colleges of the Prophets O shamelesse follie as if Poperie were come in it coulde not bring with it the whole Popes lawe though it were abrogated in the meane time The 11. Demonstration That which all the Churches haue cast off as vnfit Demonstrat cannot be good But all the Churches that haue forsaken the Pope haue cast it off Ergo. The Maior tendeth to Donatisme or Brownists Antichristianitie Remonstr To the Minor An instance is The reformed Churches of Germanie Denmarke and Sweden that retaine much of it and so our Church But they will denie ours perhaps to bee a Church reformed What follie were it where a case happeneth with a iust equall decision to determine the contrarie because hee was an ill man vnder whose authoritie it was first published Though Rich. 3. was an vsurping tyraunt his lawes were very good and are yet reteyned and so are the sounde iudgements that were giuen in times past by Papistes Iudges and badde men The 12. Demonstration We our selues mislike it as appeareth by a statute of Edwarde the 6. Demonstration We doe not mislike but abridge Remonstrance an abridgement or exception vnto part is not misliking of the whole By an abridgement no more was intended then to haue it perfectly knowen what was profitable to be reteined as not contrary to the prerogatiue Royall nor lawes of the land O golden Demonstrations of a leaden Demonstrator The fifteenth Chapter Assertion GOuernours of the Church may not meddle but in matters Ecclesiasticall onely as vocation abdication Demonstration in deciding of controuersies in doctrine and maners as farre as appertaineth to the conscience and censures of the Church This Assertion is laid out by him Remonstrance not so much to signifie what apperteineth to Church gouernours as what not apperteineth viz. ciuill causes which he fancieth that Bishops doe exercise and to claime as appertayning vnto their functions By abdication hee meaneth deposition of Church officers the worde signifieth properly a voluntarie putting away of an office but hee thinketh it is abdication when it is taken away against a mans will such a fault may be forgiuen to a poore smatterer in learning when he taketh it vp at a more learned mans hand per fidem implicitam and he only to be blamed that thus serued him on trust The French disciplines both and their practise together with the booke written in confirmation of that discipline do attribute to euery consistorie or Eldership authoritie and power to make lawes ecclesiasticall This part of power our men neuer reach at plainely in direct termes because it were likely to be enuious perhaps would proue eyther too hotte or to heauie vnto them And it is wisely me thinketh considered of them besides for when all other lawes for Church gouernment are once taken away then shall their power be more absolute if none in their steade be set downe but all left to their owne wils And seeing they haue left to themselues deciding of all controuersies in doctrine and manners as farre as appertaineth to the conscience there is still measure large ynough in their owne handes to supplie this want at the full for this one limme of authoritie will carry all causes though most ciuill in their nature and practise out of all Courtes in the land vnto their Elderships First the Chancerie that decideth matters of controuersie by conscience is clearely dammed vp and may goe picke paigles And are any other ciuill Courtes in better case no verely for can any controuersie be betwixt man and man but it appertaineth to conscience to giue the matter contended for vnto him to whō of right it is due You may not therefore maruaile hereafter if you chaunce to heare a man excommunicated by them among whom this discipline reigneth for refusing to cancell a band if they thinke it vnconscionable or denying to acquitte a debte though it were with the creditors vndoing This forsooth is no ciuill cause or matter at the cōmon law though Littleton would depose twētie times that it were By vocation I thinke they meane the first nomination of a man vnto the people for an ecclesiasticall office They leaue out election because they would seeme more popular then the French discipline that giueth to the Eldershippe both vocation and election but by that time the cardes bee dealt out you shall see all comes to one passe for whom they nominate he is thereby chosen if the people do not gainesay it and if they all doe there must also a cause be both alleadged and allowed by the Eldershippe before he can be reiected They mention not here ordination by imposition of hands vpō the elected by the Eldershippe but we see by other places that they haue an eye vnto it not to loose it I will aske therefore all the learned of that side where by any pregnant place they finde ordination of Ministers of the worde with imposition of
handes or the censures of the Church inflicted in or since the Apostles time by or vnder the authoritie of those that themselues are no ministers but in all other respectes are meere lay men and but annuall or biennall officers in the Church If they cannot shewe it let them for euer hereafter holde their peace and confesse it to bee in trueth a deuise of mans braine which they woulde seeme so much to detest in Church gouernment The 1. Demonstration That which our Sauiour Christ refused ruling and gouerning the Church Demonstration and teaching the Church that is not lawfull for an ecclesiasticall person to doe but Christ refused to diuide the inheritance Luk. 12.14 Ergo Ecclesiasticall persons may not iudge in ciuill matters The syllogisme is to be concluded newe againe Remonstrance here are foure termini foure termes in three quarters of a yeere One conclusion is Ergo ecclesiasticall persons may not iudge in ciuill causes another should be Ergo ecclesiasticall persons may not diuide lande or inheritance Amphor a caepit institui currente rota sic vrceus exit To the Maior The Maior is to be denied all that our Sauiour refused euery of vs may not refuse he because he came to be a mediatour betweene God and man would not become a common diuider and iudge of euery secular cause of title of land who made me c. neither my heauenly father sent me to that end neither haue I commission from thy brother to sende thee into the moietie of the possession Besides if he had intermedled in the matters of the common weale it would haue strengthened the conceipte that he sought an earthly kingdome and to dispossesse the Romanes To reason from Christes refusal is the refuse of all good reason à non facto ad ius Christ woulde not or did not answere Pilate in iudgement must we therefore conclude Ergo at the tribunall of a Iudge it is at our discretion to answere or not to speake Christ did not condemne the woman taken in the acte of adulterie shall not therefore officers Ecclesiasticall condemne any such sinner To the Minor Christ refused to diuide the inheritance it was because hee woulde not vse the authoritie that hee had as Lorde of Heauen and earth when he came as a seruant not because either a Christian magistrate or minister shoulde after his example lay aside all authoritie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 who hath appointed me emplieth rather that if he had bene appointed by both the parties he might haue done it and so may any minister arbitrate and compounde a controuersie ciuill that is committed vnto him If any Christians may be iudges of ciuill matters 1. Cor. 6. why may not some ministers in some ciuill matters If then hee may whome the Church appointeth nay whome two priuate men consent vpon though he be a person ecclesiasticall may not the Christian Soueraigne Prince much more commit a ciuill cause vnto them and they lawfully deale in it Or if it will be saide they may not so deale in causes ciuill delegated vnto them is then the sinne hereof in him who delegateth or who is delegated or in both But I neede not wade further into this matter I haue spoken something to it afore More authoritie ciuill then is delegated vnto them no Byshop hath may haue or doeth claime in this Realme and therefore except they will impugne this point their labour is superfluous By the way I will propounde this vnto them If all ciuill rule and authoritie bee denied to persons Ecclesiasticall as in it selfe impious howe may they rule their wiues children and housholde which is oeconomicall power and therefore ciuill as ciuill is opposite to ecclesiasticall Likewise howe may they cast their accompts receiue their rentes c. Nay when they are rubbed with their laye Elders and can no where finde them then they say they are not lay but Ecclesiasticall persons because they haue imposition of handes If they bee therefore so to bee accompted Countrey poyson then howe may they lawfully euen in the yeere of their Eldership be also ciuill magistrates as Sheriffes Iustices of peace maisters of their companies counsellours Syndicks and what not though most ciuill as dayly experience teacheth where that discipline is in vre Belike their assertions and rules are made onely against byshoppes not against themselues The 2. Demonstration That which was forbidden to the Apostles Demonstration is vnlawful for ecclesiastical officers but such dominiō was forbiddē Luk. 22.28 which is to rule ciuilly Ergo. That which was forbidden c. is vnlawfull Remonstrance But ambition tyranny contention for absolute seigneurial and ciuil authoritie was forbidden not a modest either ciuill or ecclesiastical superiority ergo to be ambitious contentious c. is vnlawfull In that here he applieth that of Luke to ciuill rule hee cleareth our Bishoppes from the daunger of it in exercising anie authoritie Ecclesiasticall This Argument is answered before The 3. Demonstration If necessarie dueties are to bee left rather then our duetie in the Church Demonstration then may not a Church-officer deale in ciuill iurisdiction but the former is true for a man may not burie his father Luc. 6.59 Ergo I denie the sequele of the Antecedent Remonstrance albeit some corporall or bodily offices which duetie biddeth to be done may vpon Christes commaundement be left vndone yet this is no barre to ministers and preachers of the Gospel to deale in any necessarie ciuill cause And how is it proued that no ciuill iurisdiction may stand with doing of his Church duetie There is none of themselues but they can be content to be executors to a wealthy widow or such like being no more afraid of it then they are to burie them To the Assumption Your quotation should be the 9. of Luke the meaning of which place is All Christians must lay aside all impedimentes and hinderaunces that may drawe them from comming to Christ but some ciuill authoritie amongst Christians is rather a furtherance What consequence cal ye this A man may not bury his own father rather then not follow Christ or if Christ otherwise encharge him Ergo a minister that liueth in a Christian common wealth may not lawfully haue a branch of commission from the prince for ciuil iurisdiction The 4. Demonstration If he that hath an office must attend on his office Demonstration then may hee not intermeddle with another office But the first is true Rom. 12.7 Ergo not with ciuill iurisdiction He may not intermeddle without lawfull calling or vocation Remonstrance yet the connexion hath no sequele Doe you not see some that haue two offices looke neere inough to both This will roaue at temporall men as well as at ecclesiasticall S. Paul disputeth of diligence in our function not of diuersitie of functions which diuerse functions may concurre in one See the answere to the first thus I retort against your selues He that