Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n
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A68474
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Appello Cæsarem A iust appeale from two vniust informers· / By Richard Mountagu.
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Montagu, Richard, 1577-1641.
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1625
(1625)
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STC 18031; ESTC S112844
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144,688
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352
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think and speake and write otherwise or you eyther yet both of us may bee deceived But somewhat there was which these men intended and would have said if so bee they could have hit upon it It is a Conclusion of the Romane Schooles The Church cannot Erre which Proposition I may both affirme and deny as it is proposed The Church CANNOT Erre The Church CAN Erre For first it i◠ambiguous subiectivè What the Church is which cannot Erre The word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and must be distinguished And secondly we may consider it obiectivè In what things the Church cannot Erre and Quousque that Not erring doth reach forth Extensivè To this purpose I differenced Churches two wayes into Topicall or Particular Churches into Catholick or Vniversall I divided also the objects of erring or not erring two wayes into Fundamentalls or superstructives For Particular locall Churches such as Corinth Ephesus Smyrna Thyatyra Laodicea c. it is in Confesso on both sides that They may Erre for it is evident that they have Erred both in inferiour and in higher points of Faith And so have Erred oftentimes that through their Erring in Fundamentalls in that sort they have ceased to be Churches any more The Catholick or universall Church I considered two wayes conceiving it to be Diffusive or Representative and that diffusion to runne out two wayes into Vniversality of ALL both Time and Place or into Vniversality of Time alone The first is so ample that it fetcheth in the APOSTLES and all and so includeth within the Verge that part of the Catholick Church which is now regnant in heaven and free from all Error as partaking of that blisse which leadeth infallibly holdeth inseparably in all Truth In this sense and acceptation the proposition is not quarrelled The Church so hath not cannot Erre The second divided part stinted from so large an extent is yet enlarged respectively to all members to every member in particular of the Catholick Church living any where at any one time so that the whole aggregation of all Christian professors make and compose this Church And as yet I thinke the Informers doe not quarrell us for Popery Their whole stitch is against the Church Representative in a Generall Councell In which though I should resolve simply and punctually thus A Generall Councell cannot Erre yet could I not be counted a Papist For the Tenent of the Papists if you my Informers know it not in their Schooles is this A Generall Councell can no way Erre in the Decisions finall thereof which is allowed by the POPE By which they necessarily inferre as also they stick not to expresse that unlesse the POPE give ratification any Generall Councell whatsoever may erre in any point of Faith of what nature soever And therefore such is their Doctrine since the IESUITES have domineered in their Schooles all the validity and assurance of not Erring which a Generall Councell hath or can have either in fide or moribus is onely from that impossibility of Erring which the POPE hath as Haeres ex asse unto S. PETER to whom our SAVIOUR behighted that impossiblity alone So that pretend the IESUITES as long as they will that fair and specious shew and title of the CHURCH never so much have they nothing in their mouthes but The CHURCH the CHURCH the POPE is that Church and their conclusion heer is not for the Church but for HIM Now doth Mr. MOUNTAGU come up unto nay looketh he toward this Catholick Roman fancy and infallible madnes Nothing lesse Hee directly pitcheth upon the Church Representative in a generall Councell WITHOUT the Pope I meane without the Pope as Head or exceeding the bounds and limits of a Patriarchicall Bishop I go not unto all things discussed or determinable in a Councell but rest upon that which is Fundamentall Nor doe I resolve it as certum de fide or tender it unto others to be beleeved I say no more but I see no cause why I may not so resolve and that also but upon suppositions if the Councell be truely GENERALL indeed and of SUCH none yet ever erred that ever I yet read or observed in Points Fundamentall And therefore I saw and see no cause but a man may say Such a Councell shall never erre in Fundamentals But concerning Fundamentals if your stitch bee against them I answer with B. MORTON in his Appeale THE beleefe of some Articles is so absolutely necessary for the constitution of a true Church as a reasonable soule is for the essentiall being of a man In such as these are shew me an error Dr. REYNOLDS himself though maintaining the contrary was not able in his VI. Conclusions out of all his reading and yet therein was his excellency to afford us so much as a peece of an example in Antiquity for a Generall Councell erring in FUNDAMENTALS and I am perswaded no man living can instance it Of such onely doe I speak and in such onely do I conceive infallibility and so as I conceive it the promise of OUR SAVIOUR may and doth hold HEE shall leade you into ALL TRUTH as also that other to the same purpose Where two or three are gathered together in my Name I AM THERE in the MIDDEST of them The Church of England may seem to have been of a contrary minde in her determinations and to have taught and prescribed to be so taught that such Generall Councels true and lawfull not onely may erre for possibilitie but also have erred in reality For Artic. XXI we reade thus GENERALL Councels may not be gathered together without the commandement and will of Princes And when they be gathered together for as much as they bee an Assembly of men whereof all be not governed with the Spirit and word of GOD they MAYERRE and sometime HAVE ERRED even in things appertaining unto GOD. Which decision of the Article is not home to this purpose First the Article avoucheth that GENERALL Councels have erred which cannot be understood of my limitation Fundamentals because there is no such Extat of any Generall Councell true and lawfull Secondly things appertaining unto GOD are not all Fundamentals but points of Piety GOD'S Service and Religion which admit a very large interpretation For many things appertaine unto GOD that are not of necessity unto salvation both in practice and speculation In these haply Generall Councels have erred in those other none can erre The Councell of Nice determined the controversie of Easter it was not Fundamentall I put the case that in it they erred It was a thing appertaining unto GOD in his service this may come under the sense and censure of the Article but this toucheth not my opinion concerning only Fundamentals Thirdly the Article speaketh at large concerning Generall Councels both for debating and deciding I onely spake of the determination wherein it may be possible they nor can nor shall erre that may and have erred in the discussing In that very Councell of
you may strongly sent that which is but weak Now who can help this Touching this point I beeleeve because Iusee the experience such as your selves can not relish nor savour any thing but only GOD'S secrets For you and men of your Company are never at quiet with GOD'S Arcana Imperij can never let his eternall Predestination alone The most ordinarie Theame of your as I am given to understand and their popular Preachings is touching that comfortable Doctrine of Election and Reprobation M. MOUNTAGU rubbed somewhat upon this sore thus That Men in Curiosity have presumed farre upon and waded deepe into the hidden secrets of the Almighty And you amongst others being galled as guilty have winched at it and hence it is that He seemeth so strongly to SAVOR of Arminianisme who would not have you meddle beyond your Modell but keepe and containe your selves within the bounds of Christian sobriety and moderation and savor of S. PAUL'S counsell Sapere ad sobrietatem He savoreth of Arminianisme but how ARMINIUS savoureth we shall smell it if we can and find it at leasure For having but named Him you fall hote upon Lutheranisme and of M. MOUNTAGU'S consent with Them as if Arminianisme Lutheranisme were two words of one signification or in this point Lutherans and Arminians were divided or as if in your heate you rambled up and downe and could not well resolve what to fasten on Will you have the Imputation runne thus The XXI chap. savoreth strongly of Arminianisme and He declareth himselfe therein to consent with the Lutherans two severall acts upon different objects Or shall it be that He savoreth so of Arminianisme because he declareth himselfe to consent with the Lutherans If Lutheranisme and Arminianisme be distinct heer is an Error committed by these Informers against Error that I am not presented upon point of Lutheranisme in the Title as well as upon point of Arminianisme If not different but the same Lutherans were in being and in name when ARMINIUS was not hatched nor in the shell And if it be an Error of ARMINIUS which was the Positive Doctrine of Lutherans and LUTHER before ARMINIUS was born why is ARMINIUS entituled unto that which is none of his but M. LUTHER'S Why is M. MOUNTAGU accused of Arminianisme said to savor of Arminianisme rather than of Lutheranisme both in this being one and the same thing There lyeth heer a padd in the straw I can ghesse at the cause a tricke of your Brotherly charity Because LUTHER'S opinions were not Dangerous but ARMINIUS errors are Dangerous For we are told in their Insinuations that THIS Arminianisme hath infested and had brought into great perill the STATES of the Vnited Provinces if the KINGS MAIESTY by his gracious care and providence had not helped to quench the fire Scilicet as of old the Pagan Idolaters accused Christianity of all those calamities which befell mankinde Postquam esse in mundo Christiana gens cepit as ARNOBIUS speaketh Blessed bee the PEACE-MAKER amongst men the Generation of that faithfull One shall be ever blessed And blessed be that MAN of PEACE in ISRAEL for ever The reward of the righteous rest upon his Royall Person and Posterity and the faithfull promise of that GRAND-PEACEMAKER betwixt Heaven and Earth be sevenfold returned into his bosome whose Princely care and providence is not confined within the surroundry of the foure Seas but enlarged ultra unto his neighbours those Vnited Provinces primarily and before all But for this particular Sirs Informers can you speake upon knowledge for I must confesse my ignorance and small intelligence in matters of this kinde both for action and speculation that there was no other Snake lurking in covert nothing else but the simple difference about these School-points of Predestination Freewill Finall Perseverance which had so almost indangered the state of those Vnited Provinces Did no craftie Interloper are you sure of that put in his Stocke among those brawling Bankers Did no wiser men or man worke upon perhaps exasperated mindes or exasperate minds to worke upon as it hath hapned elsewhere in points of controverted Divinitie called into question or maintained on foote that Religion may serve for a stalking horse to catch fooles and be pretended to serve turnes Surely those very points being Scholasticall speculations meerly and as farre from State-businesses as Theorie is from Practice are not of themselves aptae natae to breed dangers Those so dangerous opinions in the Netherlands have beene as freely quarrelled and as fiercely pursued in the Vpperlands of as long time without all danger but of Tongue-tryall And why should they be so dangerous heer Those Classicall projects Consistoriall practices Conventuall designes and Propheticall speculations of the Zealous Brethren in this Land doe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aime at Anarchy popular confusion Dangerous indeed to Prince and people State Civill and Ecclesiasticall may well come under this Information as being active in Front and not onely upon the Reare Why informe you not against the Fomenters of them Would you not take it ill if your selves were traduced as Dangerous indeed who do more than upon the Bye incline unto them But I am loth to touch heer or to meddle beyond my slipper The State is not the Subject of my Profession I pray for the prosperitie of Prince and Polity but let their courses alone to whom they concerne I excuse not ARMINIUS or Arminians in any misdemeanor onely let not Innocency in different Opinions bee calumniously traduced without cause M. MOUNTAGU in his owne particular is knowne hee giveth GOD the praise therefore to better than your selves or any of your Sect be they who they will bee to foment neyther Faction in State whereof he is incapable nor Schisme in Church whereto he is not inclinable having all his Studies addressed and Prayers directed to one end to make up if it were possible the rents in the Garment of CHRIST IESUS the breaches and ruines in the CHURCH for which cause it is apparant They cannot endure Him Quibus quietamoveri magna merces and live well fare full and fatt by Fishing in troubled waters There is One GOD One Faith One Hope One Baptisme not dividing but composing Christ in his Members and Profession Comparisons are odious yet sometime necessary Gall and Vineger are corrosive but must sometime bee used There is never a Saint-seeming and Bible-bearing hypocriticall Puritan in the Packe a better Patriot everie way than the man that hath Delivered such dangerous Errors Your goodly glozings and time-serving colludings with the State are but like Water-men upon the Thames looking one way rowing another way Your Holy cause you see will not succeed by opposition therefore you come up and seeme to cloze with the Church of England in her Discipline to use the Crosse and weare the Clothes but for her Doctrine you wave it preach against it teach contrary to that which you have subscribed that so through FORRAINE DOCTRINE being infused secretly