Ecclesiasticall or the Temporall Court to encounter them withal they did not belieue And so I say and thou sayest went to and fro betwene them without anie conclusion or profite To driue therefore the mater to some Issue let vs heare no more saieth he I saie or thou sayest but this sayeth our Lorde his bookes we both belieue we both obey there let vs seeke the Church Now in other Kyndes of question as of fasting receiuing the SacrameÌ„ts keping of holy dayes and other traditions S. Augustine wold neuer bind vs to Scripture onlie him selfe saying of these and the like in his Epistle ad Ianuarium August â— epist. 116. ad â—anuarium What so euer the whole Church thorough the worlde dothe kepe thereof to dispute it is a most insolent madnes Likewise also towarde such kynde of Aduersaries as woulde be tried hy testimonies of olde Fathers togeather with Scriptures or without expresse Scripture he would neuer charge vs to vse these wordes onelie This saieth our Lorde but well would haue bene contented that we should saie â–ª this saieth Cyprian Ambrose Basile c. him selfe speakinge of Auncient Fathers before and in his tyme after this fasshion Quod credunt Contra IulianuÌ„ PelagianuÌ„ lib. 1. ca. 2. credo that whiche they beleue I beleue that whiche they say I say c. Therefore ye haue abused very muche your Reader and S. Augustine bothe making the one to thinke the other to testifie that we should not fight against Heretikes but with expresse Scripture onelie Fulgentius ad Thrasimundum saith Apolog. that Christ thoâ—gh he be absent from vs concerning his manhode yet is euer present with vs concerning his Godhead The forme of a seruant is one thing Confut. 3â— and manhood is an other The forme perteineth to shape and figure which couereth our substance and maketh it visible the manhood perteineth to the inwarde nature and is only intelligible The first is not graunted nor taught of the Catholikes that Christ is with vs now in earth after the forme of a seruant The second yet they confesse and belieue that he is with vs really in his manhood The first is Fulgentius true sayeng to the king Thrasimund The second is your deprauing of Fulgentius in face of the worlde Sozomenus saieth of Spiridion Apolog. and Nazianzene saieth of his owne Father that a good and diligent Bishoppe doth serue in the ministery neuer the worse for that he is maried but rather the better and with more hablenes to doe good It will neuer I feare be better with you Confut. 76. but alwaies worse and worse Would ye make Gregorie Nazianzene contrarie to the Apostle And S. Paule so expresselie pronouncyng that he which hath a wyfe is carefull for the thinges of the world 1. Cor. 7. and is diuided thinke you that any Auncient Father or writer whose testimonie your selfe doe trust were likely to say that a Bishop dothe serue the better in the ministery for that he is maried I am glad ye geue credit to Sozomenus and Nazianzene vsing them for witnesses that we may see whether ye wil regard their owne very wordes and crie them mercy for abusiug them Sozomenus saith thus speaking of SpiridioÌ„ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lib. 1. c. â—◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This Spiridion waâ— an husband man hauyng wyfe anâ— chyldren but he was not therefore the worse to Godward How thinke you then doth he praise Mariage Doth he saie He serued God the better and wyth more hablenes by reason thereof Doth he not rather note it as a rare and a singular grace in him that hauing such occasions of diuidyng and distracting his mind he neuerthelesse was nothing abated in his diligence and attention towardes God Nazianzene likewyse speaketh of S. Basiles Fathers perfect life in mariage with A but yet saying Although he put himself in bondes of mariage yet he liued so therein as he was letted no whyt therefore from the attaining of perfect vertue and folowing of wisedome As who should say it commeth most times so to passe that when students or holy men are maried they looke but seldome on their bookes but wait vpon the busines of the world yet was it otherwyse with Basiles Father For he although he put himself in bonds of mariage yet he was no whit letted therefore c. In which words he coÌ„mendeth his vertue and geueth no exaÌ„ple to vnmaried Priests that if they wil be furthered to perfectioÌ„ they should not be without a bedfelow nomore thaÌ„ he which should report of an other that he sitteth at a table ful of delicats and yet neuer surfeiteth vpon them that proue that it is a right waye to temperance alwaies to be at many and fine dishes Whereas contrariwise in all things that are delectable vnto the senses and hurtfull by excesse vnto morall vertues the safest way is to flee from occasions of euill vntil by longe custome an habite be obteined in the vertue And then as it is an argument of greate perfection to liue with a woman and nothing to be hindred in deuotion by her so it is so rare a vertue and needelesse thoughe it be in a man to be practised that as it may sometimes come to passe that one is not the worse yet there was neuer yet any man so blind and vnsensible which would thinke it to be a preferment toward perfection to be at bed and at borde with a woman The more you haue then to answer for which haue fathered such a sense on S. Gregory Nazianzene S. Hierome Al these things saith he which without the testimony of the Scriptures Apolog. are holdeÌ„ as deliuered from the Apostles be throughly smitten doune by the sword of Gods worde He saith not generally al those things Conf. 30 oiÌ„a but In â—rinâ—uÌ„ cap. Aggaei Sed alia that is and other thinges also And he saith not which are holden asseruÌ„tur but which they find and fâ—ncie meaning heretikes of whom onely he speaketh in that place And therefore he maketh not a generall rule against Traditions but a special prouision against the deceits of heretikes It was ryghtly said by Pius the second a bishop of Rome Apolog that he sawe many causes why wiues should be taken away from Priests but many moe and more weighty causes why they ought to be restored to them againe His wordes Conf. â—0 as Platina reporteth are these that mariage hath bene takeÌ„ froÌ„ Priestes with great reason And that it semeth it were to be restored again with greater Note it semeth not it ought and note greater reaâ—on and not manie moe and more weyghtie And if he had so ernestly spoken as you suppose yet dothe he not allowe the mariage of priestes whiche he confesseth to haue bene taken away for greate cause but so muche he seemeth to be greaued with the loosenes of theÌ„ in his time that he thought the causes why they might be permited to
besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be red in the Church vnder the name of the holy Scriptures Therfore it forbiddeth not the reading of other thinges but in that sort as they should be commended and vttered for Scripture it selfe And strait wayes it foloweth in the same decree Let it be lauful also for the passioÌ„s and deaths of Martyrs to be read wheÌ„ their yerely feasts are kept Doe you see your lie now and wil ye lowly coÌ„fesse it Or are ye so froward that ye wil not see it or are ye so cunning that ye caÌ„ defend it Your coÌ„fession or defensioÌ„ we are content te heare but if you will be blinde lette others behold and consider that nothiÌ„g but Canonical Scripture and the deathes of Martyrs to be readen also in the Church can not both be true and stand togeather And beholde whiles I thought this obiection could not possibly be refelled it was for certainty reported vnto vs here by some that were present at M. Iewels sermoÌ„ at Poules Crosse the fiftenth of Iuly last that he complained that M. Doctor Harding wroÌ„gfully charged the authors of the Apologie with this place as being a manifeste abusing and mangling of the third CouÌ„cel of Carthage For sayd he we alleage not this out of the CouÌ„cel of Carthage but of the Councel of Hippo. Did ye so in deede Is not your Apologie therin against you Is not the CouÌ„cell of Carthage both named in the Text and noted in the margent thereof Your Latine is thus In Apol. Ecclesi Angl. Vetus Concilium Carthaginense iubet ne quid in Sacro coetulegatur praeter scripturas Canonicas aÌ„d in the margeÌ„t thus it is noted TertiuÌ„ Carth. ca. 47. And the English interpretation hath thus The old Councel at Carthage coÌ„maunded nothing to be readen in Christes coÌ„gration but the Canonical Scriptures and there lykewise in the margent ye put Concil Car. 3. cap. 47. How dare ye then so loudly to lie that ye alleaged the foresaied place out of the Councel of Hippo and not the Councell of Carthage It appereth well that Doctor Harding hath ye vpon the hippe when to saue your selues from the fall ye deny your owne words In his reply to D. Cole And wonder it is that M. Iewel would euer be the reporter of such an answer In his replie to D Harding .157 whereas himselfe hath vsed this very place of the CouÌ„cel of Carthage to like effect aÌ„d purpose as ye haue vsed it in your Apology Especially wheras there is no Councel of Hippo extant at al vnto which yet ye refer your selues CoÌ„sider therfore Indifferent reader of this place and suffer not thy selfe so to be abused that they shal make thee beleue that they alleaged not that Councell whiche thou maiest see with thy owne eyes to be named and quoted in theyr Apologie and that they folowed the Canons of the Councell of Hippo of whiche they can shewe no Canons at all that are extant In the Councell at Chalcedone Apolog. Ciuile Magistrate condemned for Heretiks by the sentence of his owne mouth the Bishoppes Dioscorus Iuuenal and Thalasius and gaue iudgement to put them from that promotion in the Church In what parte of that Councell Conf. 315. maie one finde this which you reporte In the thirde Action we doe reade that Paschasius with his two felowes the Legats of the Pope of Rome pronounced the sentence of condemnation against Dioscorus the forme whereof is fully there expressed How then Shall we thinke that one of the Popes Legates was a Ciuill Magistrate Or that the Ciuil Magistrate condemned Dioscorus ageine by the sentence of his own mouth when he was sufficiently iudged by the whole Councel of Bishopes Ye haue manie fetches yet you can not but be conuinced in this place of an impudent lye or extreme folie The most that ye might saie as farre as we can reache is that the Ciuile magistrate subscribed vnto the sentence of the Councell and by his voice also condemned Dioscorus for an heretike But this is not inoughe for you to saue your honesties For you must declare that the ciuil magistrat not only coÌ„deÌ„ned them by his testimonie or assent but also by his sentence and not such a sentence only as might concurre with the iudgmeÌ„tes of the Superiours lyke as euery bishoppe in a general Councel geueth sentence in causes Ecclesiasticall But it is included within that one senteÌ„ce which the chiefest in al the Councel do alow and geue but you must ê“ue that the ciuil mgistrat gaue the senteÌ„ce with his own mouth For so ye speake as though he had ben the the best man in the place and president of the Councel To this of Dioscorus that ye may aunswer the more fully I wil not troble yoâ— with Iuuenal and Thalassius whome ye haue also belyed in this mater Bishopes of an other sorte than Dioscorus was although you haue coÌ„deÌ„ned them together The Sixth Chapiter wherein is noted how the Apologie belieth and abvseth the Scriptures theÌ„selues It was saied indifferently to all the Apostles Apolog. Feed eye YOu meane Conf. 48. I am assured the one and tweÌ„ty of S. Iohn in which chapiter yet there is no meÌ„tion at al of the plural number with Feed ye but to S. Peter alone feede thou saieth Iesus my lambes feede thou my shepe Whether haue you a Ghospell not yet knowen to the world in which Christ saieth indifferently to al his Apostles feede ye Woe vnto you Scribes and Pharseis Apol. which haue takeÌ„ away yâ— keies of knowlege and haue shut vp the kingdome of heauen before men The Scripture saying Conf. 72. that one iote or title of the law shal not passe vntil all be fulfilled a changing of the numbre in any place of the Gospel must not be thought to be vnworth the noting Luâ—â— 11. Of the keie of knowlege Christ spake and not of keies in the plural number Paule saieth Apolo that the tyme should be when men should not awaie with holsome doctrine but be turned backe vnto â—ables and lyes and that wythin the very Church And that within the very Church Conf. 20â— Where finde ye these wordes in S. Paul That men should not away with holsome doctrine it is to be founde in the fourthe chap. of the seconde to Timothe And it is verified in all heretikes but that S. Paul â—hould referre those wordes to the very Church it selfe it is impudently attributed to the Apostle And to graunte vnto you as muche as might be for excuse of your wordes that in some sense it might be true that euen within the verie Churche men shoulde not away with holsome Doctrine that is that althoughe manie for theyr vnderstandinge dissented not from it yet in theyr lyuing they shoulde impugne it Yet to saye as you doe that S. Paule dothe expound his woordes of the verie Churche it is altogeather boldelie and falselie affirmed God Apolog. by
prieste should aske councell of God if any thing were to be done for Iosue and that Iosue should goe furth and come in at the word of Eleazar And this one answer serueth all the Examples which ye bring in of King Dauid Salomon Ezechias Iosaphat Iosias Ioas Iehu By which ye wold proue that they had iurisdiction in maters Ecclesiastical For they dyd nomore then than Christian princes doe now euen those princes that are obedieÌ„t to the See of Rome For they buyld Churches and finde Singingmen and Priestes to keepe dayly seruyce they geaue Bishoprikes they put Bishoppes byside theyr offices as Queene Marie did put CraÌ„mer anâ— Ridly aÌ„d tweÌ„ty thiÌ„gs moe they do abouâ— maters of religioÌ„ not as Supreme Gouernours but as deuout and faithfull Princes being glad to doe for the Churche whatsoeuer the Spiritual heades thereof shal moue them vnto and being ready to defend the faith of the Churche as they shall learne it of their Bishops It remaineth then that you shew not that the kinges in the olde lawe did set furth the Seruice of God displace Priests commauÌ„ded the temple to be clensed destroyed Idols c but that they did these thiÌ„gs by their absolute power without askiÌ„g aduise leue or instructioÌ„ of the priests Constantine called the Councell at Nice Apolog. Theodosius the Councel at Constantinople Theodosius the second the CouÌ„cel at Ephesus Martian the Councel at ChalcedoÌ„ Ergo Ecclesiastical matters perteine to the Office of Princes They called these Councels Confut. .308 not by vertue of their supreme autority but by the asseÌ„t of the B. of Rome And so Princes haue to do with the maters of the Churche at the second hand only The Emperour ConstaÌ„tine gaue in yâ— CouÌ„cel of Nice his aduise to yâ— Bishops Apolog. how it was best to trie out the mater by yâ— Apostles Prophets writings Ergo he bare a great stroke with his Authority in their consultation As great stroke as he bare Confut. .313 he strake not the head of the Church froÌ„ the body nor made himself Supreme Euseâ—ius in vita Constant. lib. 3. Theodor. lib. 1. c. 7. But that ye may vnderstaÌ„d how litle he toke vpoÌ„ hiÌ„ he came in last into the Councel with a smal coÌ„pany and sate not doune before he had desired the Bishops to permit it and then also he sate but in a low chaire As for geuing of aduise how things were best to be done it is lauful for the least â—rier Abbate or Doctor in a Councel to do the like and yet euery Frier that speaketh in a general CouÌ„cel is not supreme head of the Church nor of the vocation and Authoritie to define or geaue sentence on any Canon In the third Councel at Conâ—â—antinople ConstaÌ„tine a Ciuile Magistrate did not only â—itte among the Bishoppes but did also subscribe with them In the Councel called Arausicanum Apolog. the Princes Embassadours gaue their consent and put to their handes Ergo ecclesâ—iastical matters pertein to Princes So likewise to subscribe vnto the Decrees of a Councel Confut. 316. and to geue their coÌ„sent vnto matters there determined it is and may be ê‘ermitted vnto meane layemen but to define determine decree and geue Authority vnto a Canon it is neither for Embassadours nor Ciuile Magistrates nor Emperours of the whole world but for Bisshops only whom God hath apointed to gouerne his Church Gods grace is promised to a good mind Apolog to one that fereeth him Ergo not to the Sees and Successours This would folow Confut. 334. if God vsed to geue but one kinde of Grace such as maketh the receauer good But now there is a Grace of faith hope and charitie and it is not an euil minde that hath it There is the grace of preaching working of miracles healing of diseases c. and he may be euill that hath it To be a Kinge it is by the grace of God and that grace continued vntil a certaine time in the Seed and Succession of Dauid yet were not all they of a good mynde that were kinges of Iuda By which it appeareth that your Argument is false and that the grace of Authoritie and continuance is geauen not only vnto the good but the euill that folow in the race and succession Peter when he was at Rome Apol. neuer taught the Gospell neuer fed the flocke c. sate him doune onely in his castle in S. Ihon Laterane aud poynted out with his fynger the spaces of Purgatorie gaue orders to say priuate Masses c. consecâ—ated wyth hys holie breath oyle wax wolle belles c. mainteyned warres set Princes togeather at variance c. Ergo Peter did all thinges like vnto the Pope Of whose deuising is this Argument Confut. 335. Vndoubtedly no Catholike hath the 〈◊〉 to make it Do the ProtestaÌ„ts then speakâ—â—â—â— al this of S. Peter in sad ernest ' â— thinkeâ—â— not so euill of them although they can beâ—â—â— sometimes desperat How then Doe they speake it but in sport and dalie only with theyr Aduersaries The cause is to great to vse in so large wise such mockery Set him vpon the Stage with a furd cap and a motly cote he wil plaie the vice without a vizarde and make gaie sporte to the cumpanie Men say Apolog. that one Cobilon a Lacedemonian when he was sent Embassador to treate of a league found by chaunce them of the Courte playing at dice he retourned straytewayes home againe leauing his message vndone For he sayd it should be a greate reproche to his Common wealth to make a league with dycers Ergo it should be a greate blot to our name to returne to the Pope CabiloÌ„ might be parchaunce a wisemaÌ„ in his own generation but in these daies Confutation 337. he should not be much better than an impatient or Solemne Fole For to play at 〈◊〉 it is not absolutely and in all tymes â—laces and persons euil And to let that â—vndone vpon priuate coÌ„ceipt and iudgeâ—eÌ„t which is put vpoÌ„ any maÌ„ by coÌ„mon coÌ„sent aÌ„d authoritie it is not in most cases alowable But such now is the ê‘fection of the new Gospellers they wil not be at any league with dycers or euill lyuers aÌ„d in theyr coÌ„gregatioÌ„s aÌ„d fraternities ther is I trow no blot of infamy to be feared With what countenance then loke they wheÌ„ they come into the Courtes of Princes or noblemen Do they fin dno dycing â—here and no euil lyuing I haue so good opinion of these mens holines that if the Pope with al his Cardinalles would take themselues to Wyues so to cal harlotes aÌ„d in other things doe accordingly to the forme of the new Gospel he should not only haue a league made with him but also be mainteined in his supremacy which he hath in Christendome And the Cobiâ—on that should be sent Embassadour for the purpose wold neuer returne again â—â—â—uinge his message vndon though 〈◊〉
would haue had him to surrender the Empire And taking his Father prisoner he committed hym to straight custodie without anie motion of the Pope therevnto as with whome also he was at Variance Then as touching the Shearing or thrusting him into A Moâ—asterie or famishing of Henrie the fourth lette hym that made these shamefull lyes shewe his Authour and defende hym selfe Who Apolog. so ilfauouredlie and monstrouslie put the Emperour Frederikes necke vnder hys feete and as thoughe that were not suffyciente added further thys Texte out of the Psalmes Thou shalt goe vppon the Adder and Cockatrice and shalt tread the Lyon and Dragon vnder thy feete Who this should be Conf. 188 your selues can not tell whiche are the onelie mainteiners of the tale For sometymes ye laie it to Innocentius the thyrde sometymes to Innocentius the eyght sometymes to Alexander the thyrde And the fact being so strainge and singular that it coulde not be but notorious yet ye haue so litle certeintie thereof that ye knowe not who should haue done it But the trueth is no graue writer maketh any mention of such behauiour of the Pope The Emperour Theodosius 〈◊〉 as Socraâ—es sayth did not only sit emongs the Bishopes but also ordered the whole arguiâ—g of the cause Here you speake of sitting 〈…〉 as though Thâ—odâ—sius had then ben at some General Councel You speake also of ordering the whole arguing of the cause as though him selfe had ben a moderatour of some disputation The plaine storie is Hist. 〈◊〉 9 ca. 19 Theodosius conâ—erred familiarly in his owne palace with the Bishope of Constantinople howe his people might be brought to an vnitie in faith And when the heretikes refused one good way which was to be tried by the testimonies of Auncient Fathers he went an other waie to worke with theÌ„ whiche was that eche of them should bring furthe in writing that which he had to say for his faith Which being don the Emperour read ouer theyr writings aÌ„d reiected the ArriaÌ„s MacedoniaÌ„s and Eunomians heresies and embraced and commended the iudgement of the Nicene Councel touching the consubstantiality of God the Sonne with his Father So that this historie serueth nothing to the mater of a General Councel nor proueth that an Emperour may sit there as Iudge emong the Bishops nor that Theodosius did vpon his owne heade and as Supreme Gouernour that which Socrates here reporteth of him but that he folowed the Councel of his Bishope Nectarius and the former decrees of the Nicene Councel Iustinian put doun from theyr Papal Throne two Popes Apolog. Syluerius and Vigilius notwithstaÌ„ding thei were Peters successours and Christes Uicars No Conf. 3. it was not Iustinian but his Ladie Theodora which was a great mainteiner of heretikes and when women theyr husbandes being alyue be so ferueÌ„t in sprite that they must haue such Popes as please them selues no wounder if Peters Successours be shamefullie handeled Charles the greate being Emperour held a prouincial Councel in Germanie Apolog. for putting awaye Images contrary to the second Councel at Nice This is so false Confut. 327 that the contrarie is most true For whereas the heretikes named Imagebreakers Abbas Vrsper Anselm Ryd PeÌ„cerus Carion Pantalâ—o had holden a CouÌ„cel at Constantinople for abrogating of Images directly against this impietie of theyrs Pope Adrian and Charles the greate held an other Councell at Frankeford in Germanie So muche it lacketh that Charles the greate should be a fauourer of Imagebreakers The fourth Chapiter conteinyng the lies made vpon the Auncient Fathers and other VVriters S. Augustin Apolog. wheÌ„ he disputed against PetiliaÌ„ an heretik of the side of the Donatistes let not these words Aug. de vnitate Eccl. c 30 quod he be heard betwen vs I say or you say let vs rather speake in this wise thus sayth the Lord there let vs seeke the Church there let vs boult out the cause THe question betwene S. Augustine aÌ„d the Donatistes was this Conf. 29. wher the Church should be Now to proue that the Church was not with the Catholiks the Donatistes were busie alwaies in rehersing how the Catholikes had burned the holie bokes aÌ„d had offred incense to Idols and had persequuted InnoceÌ„tes like as the protestaÌ„tes in these daies wheÌ„ the questioÌ„ is of the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome thei vse to make a long tale how such a Pope was a NecromaÌ„cer and such a one a leacheroâ—s man and some other proude and ambitious Now although S. Augustine mighâ— and did also in sundry places say truelyâ— that the obiections of the Donatisteâ— were false Augu. de vnit Eccles ca. 2. IdeÌ„ lib. 2. coÌ„t epist. petil c. 8. and though he might brinâ— furth against them also greater examples of their faults yet considering thaâ— such oiections taken out of the euill life of the one side or the other doe not perteine to the question proponed And seeing that altercation and strife only waâ— mainteined thereby whiles eche partâ— would say â–ª the other lied and would noâ— ceasse to tell what they could one of thâ— other being not credited yet one of thâ— other S. Augustine therefore not desirous to chide but earnest to proue thâ— Churche to be on his side vseth thesâ— wordes De vnit Eccl. c. â— Let vs not heare This I saie or This thou saiest but let vs heare this saieth our Lord â–ª After which wordes these folowe whiche the Apologiâ— should not haue omitted Truly ther bâ— extant our Lordes bookes the authoritie of which we both do agree with al we both beleue we both serue and obey There let vs seeke the Church there vs boult out our cause For the Church it self to proue it selfe by her owne wordes is not conuenient And to credit her at the reporte and coÌ„meÌ„dation of a baser aÌ„d vnworthier witnes then her self is very dishonorable It remaineth therefore that her cause be examined by the Scriptures as whiche haue so great authority and are so generally receiued And truly it is exceading wel prouided of God that in theyr seueral causes the Church sâ—ould declare the scriptures and the scriptures the church And so wheÌ„ any maÌ„ beleueth the church and striueth with me vpon a text of the scripture I would say vnto him let vs haue no more these words I saie or you say but let vs heare rather this saieth the Church On the other side when one beleueth the scriptures as heretikes thinke they do and would reason with me about the Church where it should be I would answer Let not these wordes be hearâ— among vs I say or you say but let vs heare This saith the Scripture Therefore in this principall question betwene the Catholikes and the Donatists which was where the Church should be the best waye was only to appeale to Scriptures Againe the Donatistes admitteâ— the Scriptures but other thinges which S. Augustine alleaged out of laufull recordes either of the
the most Gorgeouse harlot BabiloÌ„ So that the beutiful harlot must not be vnderstanded now of Niniue peculiarly as S. Hierome applieth it but of the whore of Babilon Which by the interpretation of the whorish heretikes is the See of Rome Iudge now whether this be to interpret S. Hierom or to make a tale of their owne by the gifte of theyr lieing Sprite FroÌ„ theÌ„ce sayth S. CypriaÌ„ spring schismes sects Apolog. because meÌ„ seke not yâ— head haue not theyr course to the Fountaine of the Scriptures and keepe not yâ— rules geauen by the heauenly teacher Where hath S. Cyprian these words Or where speaketh he of the fountaines of the Scripture Confut. .347 Or the Original of truthe Of seeking to an head Of the doctrine of the Heauenly teacher He speaketh in the treatise De simplicitate Praelatorum or vnitate Ecclesiae and he bringeth al those three pointes to this end that Christe made Peter the head of his Church But of those fountaines of Scriptures we caÌ„ not tel wheâ— he speaketh and we knowe you so wel by this tyme that we can not beleue you except ye shew it The Euangelistes and the Apostles Prophetes sayinges shew vs sufficiently Apolog. what opinion we ought to haue of the will of God This is a true sayinge Confut. .313 yet Theodorete speaketh not of the wil of God generally but lib. 1. ca. 7 â–ª 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Godhead For the controuersie was then betwene the Catholiks and Arrians about the Consubstantialitie of God the Sonne with his Father And therefore interprete him better or vse not his Authoritie The 5. Chapiter declaring how Councels are belyed and abused in the Apologie of the Church of England According to the iudgment of the Nicen Councel Apolog. we say that the Bishop of Rome hath no more iurisdiction ouer the Church of God than the rest of the Patriarkes of Alexandria or Antiochia haue The Canon is Conf. 50. Let the auncient custome continue in force whiche he is it Egypt Libya and PeÌ„tapoli that the bishope of AlexaÌ„dâ—ia haue power ouer them all for asmuch as the Bishope oâ— Rome hath thus vsed In these words for asmuch as the Bishoppe of Rome hath thus vsed appeareth manifestlie the prerogatiue of the Bishoppe of Rome as from whose maner and custome they take an example of theyr doeinges For if it should be so vnderstanded that because the Bishoppe of Rome hath power ouer the couÌ„trie about him therefore the Bishope of Alexandria and not the Bishope of Antiochia should â—ule Egypt Libya and Pentapoly that hangeth no better togeather than if you should say let the Bishop of Canterbury be Archbishop of Yorkeshire or Ireland because the Bishoppe of Rome hath power ouer the Countreies about him And allthoughe this Argument maie seeme to conclude à Simili thus as the Bishoppe of Rome ruleth his Countrie so let euerie Metropolitane in like maner beare rule ouer his owne Countrie yet to appointe by name either Eygpte to the Bishope of Alexandria or Ireland to the Bishop of Canterbury that must depeÌ„d of some other cause and not of this that the Bishop of Rome hath iurisdictioÌ„ in Italy Now consider the mater as the truth is that the Bishoppe of Rome hath supreme authoritie emong al Bishopes and then it foloweth by good reason that the Bishop of Alexandria shall rule Egypt because the Bishop of Rome hath so vsed That is because it is so apointed and so receiued at Rome that Aegypte Libya and PeÌ„tapolis should perteine to the Bishoppe of Alexandria therefore let that order continue And this is the meaning of the Nicene Councell and this maketh for the Popes Supremacy and this proueth you to belye the Nicene CouÌ„cel which hath not at al any such wordes as you mention that he hath no more Iurisdiction ouer the Churche than the rest of the Patriarches The Councel of Carthage Apolog. did circumspectely prouide that no Bishoppe shoulde be called either the highe Bishope or Chiefe Priest The Councell doth not say No Bishope but Conf. 53. A Bishop of a first See shal not be called Chiefe of Priestes or highest Priest For whereas there be other priestes besides in the world which are not subiect vnto his see reason it is that his title extend it selfe to no more than those that are vnder his Iurisdiction Also this Canon was for the Bishopes of the prouinces of Aphrica And last of all it extendeth it selfe only to the first sees which are many according to the numbre of Countries and not to the Apostolike See and chiefe aboue all which is but one The Councel of Nice Apolog. as is alleaged by some in greeke plainly forbiddeth vs to be basely affectiouated or bent toward the Bread and Wine whiche are sette before vs. This disproueth nothinge at all the real presence of Christ in the SacrameÌ„t Conf. 108 especiallie if you would haue added that whiche foloweth in the verie selfe same sentence and not haue clipped so worthie a Councell For it foloweth thus But lyfting vp our minde lette vs by faithe vnderstand on that holy table to be laied the laÌ„be of God that taketh away the synnes of the world which is sacrificed of Priestes vnbloudelie and receiuing his preciouse body and bloud verely let vs beleue these to be the pleadges of our resurrection Therefore the Councel in forbidding vs to be baselie affected intended not to make vs beleue that Christ is in heauen onlie and not also vpon the Aultar The old Councell at Rome decreed Apolog. that no man should come to the seruice saied by a Priest well knowen to keepe a Conucbyne We find no such Canon in the old Romaine Councels But Nicolaus and Alexander Popes haue willed that none should heare the Masse of that Priest whom he knoweth vndoutedly to kepe â— Concubine whereby ye may vnderstand the masse alowed and the lustes of the Clergie punished and your mistaking of the Councell corrected The olde councell Gangrense Apolog. commaundeth that none should make suche difference betwene an vnmaried Priest a maried Priest as he ought to thinke the one more holy than the other for single life sake The wordes be these Confut. 240. If anie make a difference of a Priest who hath ben maried as thoughe when he sacrificeth a man might not communicate with his oblation accursed be he The Councell therefore speaketh of suche as were first maried and afterwardes toke Priesthode vppon them and not contrarywise of such as were first of all pristes and then afterwards did fall to mariage In which poynte the obiection of Catholikes against you consisteth The Councell at Carthage coÌ„maunded Apolog. nothing to be reade in Christes coÌ„gregatioÌ„ but the Canonical Sciptures Why reade you then Homelies of your owne making Conf. 24â— But to the matter The wordes of the councel are these It hath seemed good vnto vs that
hys Prophetes often and ernestly commaundeth the King c. To wryte out the booke of the Lawe for hym selfe Ye bring this place to proue Conf. 303 that temporal Princes haue as much to doe with Religion as Bishoppes and Priestes For the Kinge saye you muste write out the Lawe Deut. 17. But whie leaue ye out that whiche foloweth accipiens exemplar takynge the Copie of the Priestes of the Trybe of Leuie By which woordes it is clearlie perceyued that it is not in the Kynges handes to meddle with Scriptures but as he receaueth them of his betters in that authoritie the Priestes King Ioas bridled the riot and arrogancie of the Priestes Apol. We finde no such wordes in the text Conf. 307 4. Reg. 12. Iosue receiued coÌ„maundements Apolo specially touching religion We haue readen the whole Chapiter Iosue 1. Confut. .305 and we find no suche specialities there but onelie that he shoulde passe ouer Iordane And diuide the lande of Promise and be of good cumforte and strength with other lyke woordes all to the Temporall Gouernement of the â—eople but of Religion Sacrifice Praying for the people expounding the Law c. no one sentence Yea rather as it appereth in the first setting of him in his office the scripture saieth expressly 〈◊〉 any thing be to be done for this Iosue Eleazar the Priest shal aske counsel 〈◊〉 the Lorde Nu 27. At his worde vndoubtedly at the Priests he shal goe furth and come in c. Which of the two then 〈◊〉 nerer to God aÌ„d worthier by his office He that speaketh himselfe with God or he that heareth God his word by any interpretatour He which geaueth the commaundement or he which must obey it Doe no more so with the scriptures aÌ„d if none shal let you to make your own sense vpon them yet neuer take so much vpon you to put in the text it self which is not of the Scripture And further consider whether this be not to adde and take awaie from the Scripture to make that of the plural nuÌ„ber which is of the singular only To suppresse those wordes which being put in doe dissolue the knoâ— of the question To put that in whiche is not at al in the text To alleage sayinges that can not be found And to misconstrue sentences that are founde And then when you haue considered all this conferre therewith that which ye finde in the Apocalipse of S. Iohn that If any man adde vnto these things Apo vl God shal lay vpon him the plagues that are written in this booke And if anie man diminishe of the wordes of the booke of this prophecy God shal take his part out of the booke of life and out of the holy Citie and from these things which are writteÌ„ in this booke The 7. Chapiter conteining the flat lyes of the Apologie There haue ben wittely procured by the Bishop of Rome certaine persons of eloquence enough Apolog. not vnlcarned neither which should put their helpe to his cause now almost desperate NAme the Pope which hath procured them Confut. 9 Name the Persone which haue ben procured and ye shal either confesse your faultes or stand gyltie for two lyes Proue also that he wylely procured ani meÌ„ to help his cause because this word wylely maketh your lye aÌ„d slauÌ„der more greeuous For either you meane that he did it in dâ—de and that he would not be sene to doe it either that he did it boldly and manifestly but yet vsed a witty and subtil meane vnto it ConcerniÌ„g the first he neded not to be ashamed to defend his cause He might boldly without reproch choose any of the lerned aÌ„d eloqueÌ„t Catholiks for that purpose For the faith which the whole Churche opeÌ„ly coÌ„fesseth â–ª what dishonesty at al is it to coÌ„maund aloud that the best lerned shuld declare it and by declaring of it coÌ„meÌ„d it that wheÌ„ iust cause is geueÌ„ of it it mai be knoweÌ„ for a truth sufficieÌ„tly pued ConcerniÌ„g the second it were a small part of policy to labour by a fancy to perswade the whole world in a falsitie Princes desirous to restrain the gospel sought many wayes Apolog. but preuailed nothing now almost the whole world doth begyn to opeÌ„ their eies to behold yâ— light What place hath your gospel in Spain Conf. 1â— What place in Italy What successe hath your gospel in France WheÌ„ Lady Marie was once proclaimed Queene how preuailed your preachiÌ„g Did ye not flee beyond sea into free Cities And why into those more thaÌ„ into ani other but because ye preuaile not with Princes but such as cal you to their fauour of whoÌ„ yet ther are so few and so weak in al ChristeÌ„dom that in the rekning they make a litle somme And now say you the whole world almost doth begyn to open their eyes A worshipful begining after xvâ— yearis But why say ye not without almost that al the whole world begiÌ„neth to opeÌ„ their eyes You haue a coÌ„science I trow in making a lye and therfore you add almost How much theÌ„ lacketh I pray you If Loâ—aÌ„ Paris Bonony Padua SalamaÌ„ca CoÌ„pluâ—uÌ„ and other great Vniuersities but smal â—ortioÌ„s of the whole if these were lightened by your gospel would ye put out your almost What meane ye by this almoste Perchance all is ouercomed with you sauing Rome itselfe and the small Cities about it Nay haue ye not greate and Princely states as of Florence Vrbine Genua Ferrara Millaine Venice Treuers Mentes Colone Salisburg and the Catholike Cantones And sundrie Countries as Bauarie Sauoy Burgundie Loraine Brabrant Flaunders Holland Artoys Henaut Friseland Guelderland Cleueland Prussia Carinthia And many Ilandes as Sicilia Corsica Sardinia Maltha and the ZelaÌ„ds And many kingdoms as Naples FraÌ„ce Spaine Pole Bohemie Hungary and Portugale and the Empire it selfe which see well enough how darke your gospel is But no matter for these small peeces What say you then to the new Indians which alone are greater than all whom we haue rekened If you lacke but them alone haue you all the world all most No This is so great a lye that â— might turne it backeward and say the whole world almost doth defie your Gospel All theyr trauayle hath in a manner come to naught Apolog. How say you to the late general CouÌ„cel Conf. 15 â–ª which had so woÌ„derful good successe and which is so executed in Rome it selfe that not only the Bishopes but Cardinals also are sent to theyr cures and goe obediently vnto them No bodye driuing it forwarde and without anie wordly helpe King Harry the eygth then is no body with you the Duke of Saxonie Lantgraue of Hesse King Edwarde the sixth the Villaines of Boheme the Hugonites of France c. Al these then are no body On the other syde our cause againste the wil of Emperours If Charles alone had not geuen more to clemencie which ouercommeth most of all noble personages
had in his owne power to pleasure whom he listeth which is nothing so For if we shal consider the acte of the Priest as it is his owne Psonal so doth he according to his deuoute intention not by authoritie but by supplication obtaine a vertue and influence to come frome Christ to them for whom he specially offereth â— But himselfe also being a poore wretche and compassed with infirmitie he neuer learned of the Church so proudly to speake as that I am able to do this by my Masse Againe if it were true and if the Church did so teache that the Priest is able of his own self without asking leaue to make applications of Christes merits which in dede is not so yet to say that he maie applie al the merites of Christes passion is altogeather impossible For whereas there is no proportion betwen a finite thinge and an infinite the Priest which hath a limited Authoritie and such a power as hath an end how can he stretche it to the distributing of all the merites of Christes death whiche are endelesse and infinite Therefore I saie discharge your selues And concerning that absurditie by which you would encrease your readers indignation against our cause saying that we distribute and applye Christes merites when the parties thinke nothing on the mater that is not so vnreasonable as the vnwise brother would thinke it Whereas the praiers of the English congregation if in dede God accepted them maie procure strength in the Lorde vnto the brothers of France or Germanie although they were either a sleping or drinking It is a shameful parte and ful of infidelitie Apolog. that we see euerie where used in the Churches of our Aduersaryes that they wil haue innumerable sortes of mediatours Innumerable Conf. 12â— This is one plaine lye For the Churche knoweth but two the one when the party which commeth in betweene to entreate and make peace maie by equalytie or Authoritie haue to doe with both of whiche sorte Ihesus Christ alone is a mediatour being perfite God nothing inferiour to his Father and perfite Man nothing disdaining a man The other when by waye of requeste onelie and by intercession the freindes and acquaintaunce of both sides speake a good worde and fauorable for the partie distressed vnable by them selues to commmaunde or woorke anie thing but by the fauor and especiall grace of him whiche hath the better Of this sorte are all the Saintes of heauen aâ—d al good men in earth And poore men can not tell to whiche Saynct it were best to turne them first Apolog. Blessing to your hart that you care for the poore emong whom I neuer hard of anie which was in the doubt of whiche you speake But if it be so in anie it maie quickly be told him that he study not loÌ„g about the mater but praie generally in short wordes and say O all ye Saintes of God pray for me What would these men haue saied Apolog. when in al Councels newe ordres new decrees continually were deuised Marie we would haue stoode to the Catholike CouÌ„cels Confut. 186. in which new Credes from the old were neuer made but the old made more plaine by expounding in plainer words the faith that was before Some of the Fryers Apolog. and Monkes put a greate holynes in eating of fyshe and some in eating of hearbes some in wearing of shewes and some wearing of Sandales some goeing in a linen garment and some in wollen If by some ye meane special persons Confut. .143 I can not tel what nor where When ye name them to vs or wil send your charitable letters to them I warrant you they shal be spoken withal But whereas this appertaineth not to the common cause of the Church or the coÌ„trouersie and questioÌ„ betwene vs what Frier Tucke or Don Roger doe thinke priuatly therefore if by the worde one ye meane the whole orders of Friers and MoÌ„kes and make this sense that some orders of Friers put a great holines in fish aÌ„d some in flesh c. Then doe most shamefully and vilie slander them For S. Bernardan Abbate instructeth his Monkes after this sorte Corporum conuersio si sola fuerit Serm. 2. in capitâ— Ieiunij nulla erit that is the conuersion of the bodies if it be nothing but that it is nothing And by conuerâ—ion of the bodies he meaneth as it foloweth in the sermon the shauing of Monkes the coteÌ„ the Rule of theyr fastes and apointed howres of singing And Petrus a Soto the diuinitie Reader in Oxforth in Quene Maries tymes himself being a Dominican Frier and keeping himselfe faithâ—ully within his order yet he made no such accompt of externall thinges as you falsely sclaunder Monkes and Friers to make But as all learned men doe when they write of the true worshipping of God â–ª so he expresly sayth with the Apostle Tract de instâ— Sac. Iect 5. That Corporal exercise is profitable to little but Pietie and deuotioÌ„ is profitable to al thinges â— Tim. 4. And againe Rom. 14 The kingdome of God is not meate and drinke bâ—t Iustice and peace and ioy in the â—olygost Bring you furth now on the 〈◊〉 side that Religious meÌ„ put an holines in such externall ceremonies or rules aâ— you specifie Zuinglians and Lutherans vary not betwixt them selues vpon the principles fouÌ„dations of our ReligioÌ„ â–ª 〈…〉 God Apolog. 1. nor Christ nor the Holygost nor of the meanes to iustification nor yet euerlasting life but Upon one only question which is neither weighty nor greate Neither mistrust we or make any dout at all But they will shortly be agreed They vary about the body of Christ Confut. â— the one confessing a true presence thereof in the Sacrament The other withstanding it and faining Christe to be present by figure onlie This is one Neither in the Sacrament only doe they differ Nicolaus Gallus in the sibus hypo but also in questions of the law of the Ghopel of iustification and of good workes as Nicolaus Gallus a Lutherane protesteth against them Nowe whether the question of Christes presence be weightie or no let him be iudge whiche heareth Christ saying Nisi manducaueritis Ioan. 6. excepte ye eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud ye shal not haue lyfe in you c. This is the third This which foloweth I note not as a lie 〈◊〉 as a sensible and vain foly â–ª for the 〈◊〉 theÌ„selues striuiÌ„g euery day more aÌ„d more th' one against th' other aÌ„d as Amsâ—orphiê° a LutheraÌ„ witnesseth their coÌ„tradictioÌ„s beiÌ„g vnable by any possibility to be made agree togeather How ful of vaine hope are you which haue so litle doubt of theyr concorde that ye trust they will be agreed shortly They haue throweÌ„ vs into prison Apolog. into water into fyer and haue embrued themselues in our bloud not because we were either Adulterers or Robbers or Murtherers
replied that they them selues are not far from harlottes which being no Commissioners for the purpose so diligently obserue such proceedings and that they which couete after such knowledge doe feede in theyr myndes vppon no better than carren And as it maie be seene by theyr apparell distincte from honest women that Curtesans are in that populous City so to beable to say it constantly that many thousands of them are therin placed it must procede of experieÌ„ce And it should not be reported in the heariÌ„g of Christians excepte it were euideÌ„tly declared Yea neither theÌ„ also if we rightly vnderstood our Sauiour sayng Ioan. 8. Lethim which is without syn emoÌ„g you cast a stone first at her Wherfore this of many thousaÌ„d harlots in Rome shal staÌ„d for onelie aÌ„d he which dare come forth aÌ„d ê“ue it in dede shal staÌ„d to defence of his honesti Now concerning the yearely pension which the Pope you saie gathereth of them how great is it Mary vppon a thirty thousand duckates And howe manie harlotes are there Manie thousandes you saie But I aske how manie Make a gheasse as you do vpoÌ„ the annual peÌ„sion gathered of them Are there think you thirty thousande harlottes or thereabout Nay are ther three or foure thousands of So many as you would haue seme to be there Surely within this number you can not welcome because ye affirme that manie thousandes are there Goe to then if there can not by your accompt be lesse than three thousand for of two thousand only no man euer sayeth there are many thousandes euery one paieing ten ducketes by the yeare the whole pension maie easely be made vp And thinke you that any man disposed to make a vaÌ„tage would gather no more of such persons as so lightly come by their mony If but three thousand tippling houses were in anie Citie a very fauorable Prince would not make so litle of them for excises c. as thirty thousand duckates by the yeare But if he were a couetous and greedie Prince hauing suche a foule companie in his Citie of whome he might take large exactions euen for iustice sake would he be contented with an yearely pension of so litle value So few thousand duckattes agree not with so manie thousand harlottes and therefore ye shal doe wel to make areuew and mend the lye where it is You procede further as it were to a greater mater which if it be so ye make a third lye although in deede I suppose that it is but the second lye in this place set more abrode aÌ„d dilated For he maintayneth you saie brothel houses c. How proue ye that I think ye wil tel vs here again of the thirty thousaÌ„d duckats specially because ye speke also of a most fiâ—thy lucre to which duckats we haue aÌ„swered before And now we say further that he taketh no annual vantage of harlotes at al but such as commeth from euerie one that dwelleth in the Citie by auncieÌ„t tribut and custome But you saie further he maintaineth them I would ye were so maintained But by what meanes Defendeth hâ— theyr cause as he would the causes of honest persons Doth he prouoke them by immunities and priuileges to tarie Is he offended when anie good man either mercifully doth conuerte them to a better kinde of lyfe or iustlie punishe them for offending againste the Lawe Wil ye see how they be maintained They muste not dwell in haunted or great places but in bycorners and lanes They must not ryde abrode in coches or chariotes but walke a foote in the streates They muste not goe in apparell all lyke other women but weare a shoorte vayle of one certaine colour vppon theyr heades that they maie be knowen for harlottes And if they lyke strumpets doe offende against anie of these orders they paie a greate forfait Of whiche pointe if ye will gather that the Pope serueth therein his owne lust and lucre what men are ye so to peruerte that for whiche praise is due vnto him Shoulde he not punishe them at all Or in punishing them should he not doe it to the terror and example of others Ye will aunswere perchaunce that he shoulde haue none suche in the Citie Obiecte then onelie that against him and slander him no more with procuring aduantage in maintaininge of whores nor defame hym no more that he seeketh his owne lucre by settinge greate Forefaites or trybutes vppon heÌ„ And then coÌ„cerning the permitting of theÌ„ in the City If Canelâ— aÌ„d sinkes becoÌ„mendable theÌ„ let M. levvel crie on as he did in his â—ast sermon against him that M. Harding vvil defend 〈◊〉 cause of harlottes I aunswere you that in temporal gouermente it is not euil in respecte of a worse which els would follow to lette harlottes and bawdes * lye with dishonor aÌ„d shame in the sinkes of great Cities like as Minstrels Daunsers Iugglers Vsurers and other of vnhoneste and vile behauiour of life are suffered to remaine euen in LoÌ„don it selfe and that when al the Superintendents of EnglaÌ„d shal be at theyr conuocation And this I speake touching ciuill policie for concerning the spiritual gouernement there is in Rome daily and vehement preaching against them In the beginning of Lent and before Easter the Pope doth solemly accurse theÌ„ Besides this they shal make no testament before theyr death nor afterwards be buried emong Christians except they did repent in tyme of theyr life How say you then Proue not these things in the iudgemeÌ„t of an indifferent man that the Pope wil haue no harlots at al in Rome if either experience of ciuil policy should perswade it or force of his spiritual sword and sentence could winne it And yet dare you so lewdly to write that he mainteineth brothel houses c. Of a monasterie made by the blessed Pope Pius Quartus charges and charity in which the Harlottes conuerted from their wicked trade of euill life through publike preaching or priuate exhorting should be receaued and kept in all honestie of such a house and maintenaunce of them to such a life we haue hearde and they which haue ben at Rome are certaine But of any procuring of their contynuaunce in their filthe and harlotrie you haue heard perchaunce but you should not haue so stoutly obiected it before ye had bene more sure of it Bring furth your Author that we may see whether ye be not light of credit Or proue your owne sayings true if your selues be the Authours that ye be not conuicted of impudencie If these things would haue pleased vs that is Apolo harlottes brothel houses c we needed not to haue departed from these mens felowship emoÌ„g whom such enormities be in their chiefe pride and price I would this were true Confut 170. For then no doubt but if ye were in company of good Catholikes such as be as sorie as you for enormities and coÌ„plaine thereof as hartely as you though not so vndiscretely ye would repent you of
once saie the word both partes wil submitte theÌ„selues vnto it because it is impossible that he should speake anie vntrueth His authoritie therefore being for so good cause so great with vs either ye can ê“ue that Christ hath fortold as ye report of him or ye can not proue it If ye can not what an impudencie is it againste Christ himself so to belie him and what an iniurie â—s it to the Reader so to abuse him by the name of Christe But if ye can shewe it where Christ hath foretold that our Churche shoulde erre doe so then and speake not so mightie woordes againste vs without anie prouing of them at all But howe is it possible that ye should proue them Christ hath a Church For this first ye will not denie that Christ hath a Church otherwise his Incarnation and Passion hath bene in vaine if he haue not her for whoÌ„ he toke flesh The Churc◠〈◊〉 visible aÌ„d shed his blud This church theÌ„ of Christ is it visible or no Visible it must nedes be because it coÌ„sisteth of meÌ„ â—nd meÌ„ are creatures coÌ„sisting not of pure and simple soules but of soules and bodies togeather And Christ saieth of it Math 5. The Citie can not be hid that is set vpon an hyl Being then visible The Churche hath order in it Sap. 11. shal ye see good order in it or no Vndoubtedlie he that hath made al things by nuÌ„ber weight and measure muste not let that to be without order which he estemeth most of al other thinges For 〈◊〉 is the bodie of Christe Eph. 4. compacted and knit togeather through euerie ioynt wherewith one ministreth to an other hauiÌ„g in it distinction of offices and duties to rule to obey to preache to heare to minister to receaue This Order then The order in the Church must continue Dan. 7. shal it for anie tyme be lacking in Christes Church or shal it continue to the worldes end It muste needes continue because the kingdome of Christ is euerlasting and no power is hable to destroie the order which he taketh The Apostle also most expresly telling vs that Christ hath geuen Apostles Prophetes Euangelistes Pastoures and Teachers â—ph 4. to finish and perfite the holy to worke in the ministery to build vp the bodie of Christ. Which bodie whereas it caÌ„ not be perfited vntill al they be borne that shal be saued soules it foloweth that this Order which I speake of must continue so long vntil all meete togeather in vnity of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God which wil not be til al be borne that shall so meete togeather and that is at domes day and not before These grounds then so standing I say vnto you for as much as the Church of Christ consisteth of a visible cumpanie of men which is kept in order and vnitie by reason that euery one knoweth his place and keepeth himselfe within his boundes least he loose his place and for as much as this cumpanie and order must continue to the worldes end without dissolution or distruction I say therfore vnto you that either our Catholike Church is the true Church of Christ or els that Christ hath no Church at al. For besides our Church ther is none that hath bensene to coÌ„tinue in any form of religioÌ„ euer sensth ' Apostles time hitherto As in exaÌ„ple before Luther brake out froÌ„ his cloister and Rule ther was not in al the world anyone cuÌ„pany of Luther aÌ„s ZuiÌ„gli aÌ„s Caluinists or any other sect that braggeth at this day of the light aÌ„d knouledge of the gospel Wel ther might be in corners some faithles meÌ„ and womeÌ„ that in hart were heretical like as at this present if harts were sene many shuld be fouÌ„d eueÌ„ in EnglaÌ„d it self to dout of th'iÌ„mortality of the soule aÌ„d th' IncarnatioÌ„ of Christ c but ther was no opeÌ„ coÌ„gregatioÌ„ of theÌ„ nor apê“ued form of ministratioÌ„ emoÌ„g theÌ„ nor any face or shew of a Church For yourselues do say that Martin Luther aÌ„d Hulderik ZuiÌ„glius wer the first that came to the knowledge aÌ„d preaching of the Gospel so that if they were first it foloweth that before they came ther was no congregatioÌ„ of ê“testaÌ„ts in al the world or if it were it was not visible or if it were visible it had no true preachers or if it had true preachers Luther aÌ„d Zuinglê° need not to be praised of you for most excelleÌ„t meÌ„ eueÌ„ sent of God to geue light to the world because there were in the coÌ„gregatioÌ„s of the sincere in the Lord as illumined preachers of the word as they But wher as the truth is as you say that Luther and ZuiÌ„glius were the first that cam to the knoulege aÌ„d prechiÌ„g of the Gospel which is none in dede and wher as it remaineth to this day not oÌ„ly in the bokes that are writeÌ„ but in the memories of meÌ„ that knew those daies that before Luther and ZuiÌ„glius made a tumult in ReligioÌ„ ther was not in al ChristeÌ„doÌ„ any other ê“fessioÌ„ of faith thaÌ„ was sene in our Church which we know to be Catholik it foloweth that your church caÌ„ not possibly be the Church of Christ the coÌ„tinuaÌ„ce of which your church caÌ„ so litle be ê‘ceiued that yourselues know it begaÌ„ to com furth in Frier Luther and Sir ZuiÌ„glius time In whiche Churche there was so little order that ye can name neither SuperintendeÌ„t nor minister nor preacher nor broâ—her of it that liued before the most excelleÌ„t meÌ„ Luther and Zuinglius and which Churche was so inuisible that ye neuer sawe so much as any forme of communion table pulpit vestiment or other thing vsed in it Yet we see this by experience that when a cumpany of heretikes doth mete togeather they wil not be longe without theyr preacher euerie one is so readie to be preacher and they can not be without some place and they wil make harde shifte but they will haue a good place which is the cause that so many requestes haue bene made to Gouernours of certaine Countries and so manie Religious houses and Churches haue bene hewed and squared for the receiuing of the newe Ghospel Therefore if there was anie congregation extant of this your Church before Frier Luther lay with Nonne Katerine and begate manie foule and fi lt hic opinions of his owne braine and if that Church was the true Apostolik Church and had so continued from the beginning theÌ„ had they places to resort vnto and they vsed such order as they had receiued of theyr Forefathers and you are hable to name the place and tel vs theyr Order But we can he are of no such thing ergo there was no Church of yours at all as then Add then now vnto this that Luthers Church began with Luther and so furth euery Church sens Luther hath begon with the Diuiser of it And consider that the true Church of Christe can haue no suche
for thee â—eter I haue praied that thy faith should not â—aile and thou being once turned confirme thy bretherne Againe to S. Peter he committeth his whole flocke saying Ioan 21. feede my lambes fede my sheepe To S. Peter then as the singularly chosen the promises are made and the priuileges are by praier obtained aÌ„d the charge by expresse worde is committed Nowe for confirmation of these wordes consider the effectes that haue folowed what heresie was euer mainteined by the See of Rome What question was there euer in the Church of Christ and not referred to that See and determined or pacified by it What See hath continued in al tempestes but onlie the See of Rome Who can shewe theyr succession from the Apostles but onlie the Bishopes of Rome What See is preferred in the writinges of holy Fathers but the See of Rome onlie That is the Chaire vnto which perfidiousnes can haue no accesse 〈…〉 That is the chaire of vnitie in which God hath put the doctrine of veritie 〈…〉 That is the Chaire in which euill men are constrayned to speake good thinges that the faith of the Christians may be out of doubt with them whiles it shall depend vpon the infallible promises of God and not vpon the deceiptful coniectures of men This Churche therefore being the Church which we cal Catholik in which the chiefe Master of the worke laied S. Peter as the first stone next to himselfe and in which there is a continual rew of Bishops one vpon an other to the meruelous strengthning and beautifieng of the whole building against which Church it is impossible that any wind or weather should so preuaile as it might ouerturne it for it is builded vpon a sure Rocke in which Church also there is the presence of the Holyghost sent of our Sauiour to teach it all truth and to tarie with it for euer these thinges being most euident and consequent what a blaspheâ—ouse lye is it to say that Christ hath told longe before that this Churche should erre For what other thiÌ„g is that to say but to blaspheme either the wisedoÌ„ of God as though he had not erected a church that should not erre or his power as though he could not bring it to passe or his Charitie as though he would not or his veritie as though he had not sayed poynting to S. Peter Math. 1â— vpon this Rock I wil build my Churcâ—e and againe I haue prayed for thee Peter Luc. 22. that thy Faith might not faile But for this tyme this is inough to note only the blasphemie he that wil see is more largely betraied and conuinced let him reade Doctor Saunders booke lately set furth of the Rocke of the Church The 12. Of the Contradictions Martin Luther Hulderycke Zuinglius Apolog. â—74 a being most excellent men euen sent of God to geue light to the worlde firste came vnto the knowledge of the Gospell ERgo before their tyme Confut. ther was a generall darknes in the world I wysse it is not so harde a matter to find out Gods Church Apolog. .24 for the Church of God is set vpoÌ„ an hill glistering place Ergo Luther and Zuinglius could not be the first that shoulde see the Church Confut. except either Christ had no Church at all in the world wheÌ„ Luther was borne or except a Citie set vpon an hil and for that purpose vndoubtedly sette that it might be sene should not yet be sene before Luther came in with his lanthorn We saye we haue no meede at all Apolog. 125. by our owne workes and dedes Ergo it booteth not to labour Confut. except it be for nothing God hath plucked vs out from the power of darknes Apolog. 225. to serue the liuing God to cut away all the remanents of synne and to worke out Saluation in feare and trembling Ergo that is not without some meede and rewarde Confut. by which we worke our saluation Our Aduersaries must be heaued froÌ„ their mother Apolog. 194. that is from this vaine coloure and shadow of the Church Ergo ye should vtterly dâ—spise the Church Confut. especially as it is now if yoâ—r aduersaries mother be of no substance but a vaine colour only To say truely Apolog. 192. we doe not despise the Chuâ—che of these men how so euer it be ordered by them now adayes â—rgo the Catholiks Church is no vaine colour of a Church Confut. seing that your selues dare not despise it 〈◊〉 popes had neuer hitherto leisure to 〈…〉 and earnesâ—â—â—e of those matters Apolog 19. 〈◊〉 some other cares do let them and â—iuers waies pul them Item â—61 they compt these thinges to be but coÌ„mon and trifling studies and nothing to appertaine to the Popes worthines Ergo being so carelesse Confut. they would neuer haue perceiued the case of their Religion nor procured men to defend it There haue ben wylily procured by yâ— Bishop of Rome Apolog. certaine persons of eloquence inough and not vnlearned neither which should put their helpe to this cause now almoste despaired of Item In deede they perceyued that their owne cause did euery where goe to wracke Ergo it appeareth Confut. that the Popes haue had care of the cause of Religion In this point that is lifting vp the Sacrament consisteth nowe all theyr Religion Apolog 250. Ergo al is not in salt Confut. water c. In these thinges they meane salt water Apolog. 255. Oyle spittle Palme they haue set all their Religion Ergo all is not in lifting vp the Sacrament Confut. What fault haue they once acknowledged and confessed Apolog. 209. Why burden ye then vs with not amending manifest and ofte confessed faultes Confut. Of so many Apolog 291. so manifest so often confessed by them and so euident errours what one haue they amended Why aske you then Confut. what faulte we haue once confessed For so much as we were most ascertened of God his will Apolog. 327. and compâ—ed it a wicked thing to be careful and ouercuÌ„bred about yâ— iudgments of mortal men Therefore ye should haue neuer called a Synode of mortal men Confut. Yet it foloweth Therefore we thought good to remedie our Churches by a prouincial Sinod Apolog. But what neded a remedy by a Synod Confut. if mortal mens iudgmentes are not to be cared for Our cause against the wil of Emperoures from the beginning Apolog. .15 against the willes of so many Kinges in spite of the Popes and almost maugre the head of al men hath taken encreace c. You neuer nede then Confu to aske leaue that your Gospel may procede if it be so victorious and triumâ—hant that maugre the head of al men almost it take encrease Let them geue the Ghospell free passage Apolog 133. let the trueth of Ihesu Christ geue his clere light
marie were much greater After which maner a very discreet and sadde Merchante of London might saie vnto you that for greate good cause Apology wold be so much ouerseen mary aut integra percipiant aut ab integris arceantur either saieth he let them receaue the whole De cons. dist â— caâ— CoÌ„peri eihter let theÌ„ be kept from the whole Of receiuing therefore he speaketh not of geuing Why is it not al in a maner one and can both be receiued except both be geuen No thei cannot But who shal constraine the Priest to geue both Or who shal coÌ„pel the Bishopes whom God hath set to gouerne his church who shal compel theÌ„ to make a law that both be geaueÌ„ For as they sâ—al see it expedient for the present state of the peple ouer which thei haue authority so may they to some geue both to some geue one to some in forme of bread to other in forme of wine aÌ„d some also they may kepe froÌ„ receiuing in anie kind at al like as by their discretion they shal see the diuersity of cases to require And if ye could iÌ„pugne this by any means yet could ye not iÌ„pugn it by Gelasiê° aÌ„d ê“ue by him that both kinds ought to be geueÌ„ SecoÌ„dly I note against you that neither the peoples receiuing in both is proued by Gelasius to be of absolute necessity vnder peril of committing sacrilege For he speketh but of one certain kiÌ„d of persons How proue I that By his own words For in his coÌ„muandement that they which were noted vnto him should either receiue the whole or abstain froÌ„ the whole he laieth in this cause betwen QuoniaÌ„ nescio c. Because they be staid with a superstitioÌ„ I caÌ„ not tel what ergo take superstitioÌ„ awaie and the case of the Receiuer is altered And he doth not forbid a vertuouse and right beleuing maÌ„ to receiue in one kind vpoÌ„ good coÌ„sideratioÌ„s Shew ye now â–ª that the sacrament ought to be geaueÌ„ in both kinds â–ª aÌ„d that some sorte of people might not receiue vnder one alone or confesse that ye haue made a duble lie vpon Gelasius What can be sayd more plainly then that which Ambrose saith Apolog. bread and wine remaine stil the same they were before and yet are chaynged into an other thing As plaine as he speaketh Confut. 94. you vnderstand him not and if you do because nothing can be saied more plaine then doe ye abuse him most shamefully The beginning of the sentence or periode out of whiche you take certaine wordes for your purpose Lib. 4. de Sacr. c. 4. is this in englishe If there be so great power in the word of our Lord Iesus that thinges which were not should begin to be how muche more is it effectual and workinge vt sint quae erant in aliud commutentur that thinges which were be and be chaunged into an other thing Vpon the construction of which latine wordes our present question consisteth The Apologie coÌ„strueth thus â–ª vt that vnderstaÌ„d say they â–ª panis vinuÌ„ bread and wine Sint quae erant should remaine styll the same they were before coÌ„mutentur in aliud and should be chaunged into an other thing Now the true interpretatioÌ„ is thus to be made Vt quae erant that the thinges whiche were Sint be in aliud commutentur and be chaunged into an other So that quae eraÌ„t is nominatiue case to the verbe sint and not panis vinuÌ„ as the Apologie faineth For in S. Ambrose argument there is this antithesis or opposition from not being to being and from being to an other being As if God hath made nothing somewhat muche more of somewhat he may make another thiÌ„g Before the world began the Heauens waters and Earth had no existance or being at al. God spake the word and so of nothing he made theÌ„ to haue a beginning and being but bread had a being when it was yet vnconsecrated and after the wordes of consecraâ—â—on it keepeth stil a being because it is not annihilated and vtterly made nothing yet it keepeth not still the same being it had before because it is no more natural bread but is turned by the omnipotencie of Gods worde into the bodie of Christe As in example of the meate whiche we eate be it fishe or fleash it had a being in it selfe before we did eate it â–ª anâ— after it is once digested it hath a being for we are not fedde with nothing and our meates are not annihilated in vs but conuerted into our bodily substance yet they keepe not the same being whiche they had before For then should theyr bodies which fed alwaies vpon veale mutton capons wodcockes c. consist not of mans fleash but of calueflesh shepes flesh c. And such men were quickely to be set to schole or reformed in theyr opinion least by much vsing of the foresayd meates they might proue in theyr own concepte as wise as Calues Capons or Wodcockes This example wel considered it will appeere that S. Ambrose saieth right lie that quae erant sint the things which were keepe a being as bread dothe when it is consecrated but not as the Apologie abuseth S. Ambrose that Sint quae erant they should remaine styll the same they were before For bread is conuerted by consecration into the bodye of Christe and so keepeth styll a being but not the same whiche it had before Cyrill saieth Apolog. when we come to receiue these mysteries all grosse Imaginations must quite be banished Grosse Imaginations in S. Cyrill Confut. 107. doe signifie not the Catholique beliefe of the Faithfull whiche confesse them selues to receiue vnder the forme of bread perfecte God and perfecte man One Iesus Christe but the carnall thoughtes and opinions of Nestorius and lyke Heretiques whiche diuide Christe that is but one and imagine that the Blessed Virgine was Mother of Christ man not of the worde God as though the manhoode had anie personall subsistence separate from the Godheade Of whiche false principle it woulde folow that the bodie of Christ which Christians receiue in the Sacrament should be the bodie of a pure man And therforâ— he inueigheth against him and saieth Num hominis comestionem c â–ª what doest thou pronounce this ouâ— Sacrament to be the eating of a man and doest thou dryue irreuereÌ„tly the mind of the faithful to grosse imaginations c. Now the Catholikes which beleue that they receiue not the fleash of a bare man which could not but minister verie carnal and grosse thoughtes but the fleash of God and man that by consideration of the presence of suche 〈◊〉 maiestie our vnderstaÌ„dings should yeldâ— vnto his wordes by faith and put awaie all carnall Imaginations concerning the mysteries iudge you whether we be giltie of grosse imaginations and whether you haue rightlie vnderstanded S. Cyrill or no. As Chrysostome very aptly writeth Apolog. we say that the
ready to diminsh the numbre of Ceremonies that the greatest papist in the world would not aske more fauor in the questioÌ„ aÌ„d cause of theÌ„ First if the Scripture doth alow anie order or fashioÌ„ it is not vaine If the whole Church hath generally receiued ani it is not vaine If it be but a particular Ceremony of one couÌ„trie and be not agaiÌ„st the faith or good maners it is not vaine Yea if anie thing be in it which helpeth to amendement of life it is not vaine By so many waies and for so many causes a ceremony maie wel continue as ye shal finde in that verie epistle of S. Augustin Epi. 119. c. 18. 19. And had you the face so to alleage this holy Doctours complaining of ceremonies as though he would haue as few as you What Sacrament haue you about which ye doe occupie oile What thinke you of the fast of lent What of Alleluia betwixt Easter and Witsontide What vse haue you of any Octaues Cap. 7. 15. 18. Yet of these Ceremonies he maketh mentioÌ„ in the foresaied Epistle and reckoneth that they are to be vsed and regarded Gregory c. if the Church saieth he shall depend vppon one man Apolog. it will at once fal doune to the ground Ye belie him shamfully he hath no such words at al. Conf. 203 Yet the protestaÌ„t may think this impossible that you should haue no more regarde of your honestye Let him seeke then if he be learned and iudge by his owne senses whether any such proposition is ther to be found But is there not a like vnto it Ye as so like as Rome is to Constantinople or Gregorie S. Peters successour to Nestorius of Constantinople an heretike For if a man should seeke for his life to find in that epistle but some resemblance of that which the Apology reporteth he findeth no more but this which I shal declare for th'vnlerned sake Iohn Bishope of Constantinople affected the title of Vniuersal Bishope S. Gregorie then Pope of Rome coÌ„plaineth thereof to Mauritius the Emperour declaring good causes aÌ„d reasons why such presumptioÌ„ should not be suffred Emong other he maketh this argument Lib. 4. epist. 3â— Surely we haue knoweÌ„ manie Prelats of the Church of CoÌ„staÌ„tinople to haue falleÌ„ into the goulfe of heresie and to haue ben not only heretiks but archeheretikes also Nowe for example he nameth Nestorius and Macedonius then bringeth he in therevpon this conclusion If therefore in that church vndoubtedly of Constantinople anie pul vnto himself that name of Vniuersal Bishope ergo which hath ben the iudgement of all good men the whole church which God forbid falleth froÌ„ her state wheÌ„ he falleth which is called Vniuersall An excellent argument vndoubtedly For if the only or Vniuersall Bishope should be at CoÌ„staÌ„tinople that see hauing no priuilege of coÌ„tinuing stil in the right faith as appereth by the archeheretikes which sate ther and al the world being bound to obey the Vniuersal Bishope this one absurditie grauÌ„ted a thousand would folow and that one Bishoppe erring all the whole Church should go a straie Loe this is al that may seme to geue any occasioÌ„ of reporting that which the Apologie hath attributed to S. Gregorie And wher find we here that if the church depeÌ„d vpon one maÌ„ â–ª it must at once fal doune to the ground Wil they yet defend theyr lying Or dare they yet stil abuse the old fathers â—s the Church aÌ„d that Church al one in coÌ„cluding Is depeÌ„ding vpon one man and that man al a like The successor of S. Peter and Bishop in that chaire in which neuer yet was fouÌ„d any archeheretike to set furth naughty doctrin is he al one with a Bishope of ConstaÌ„tinople â–ª which neither succedeth any Apostle and hath bene a defender of heresies let vs see now therfore whether you wil coÌ„fesse your errour in mistaking S. Gregorie Or mainteine your impudencie in misusing of him The bishâ—ps sayth Bernard who now haue yâ— charge of Gods church Apolog. ar not teachers but deceauers they are not feders but begilers thei are not prelats but pilates These words spake Bernard of yâ— B. who nameth him self the highest Bishop of al of yâ— other Bishops likwise which then had the place of gouernement How then Confut. Did S. Bernard forsake al papistrie and abandon the Pope because of those faâ—ltes which he fouÌ„d If he did why taried he in his moÌ„kes cote vnto his death If he did not what vnwise meÌ„ be you to for sake the Church for euil maners sake But coÌ„sider further WhoÌ„ called he deceauers â–ª begâ—â—ers pilats Al the whole order of Bishopes and gouernoures of the Church froÌ„ the Pope dounward Or spake he of some certain only If he noted but some certain aÌ„d â—heÌ„ worthely those other some which were not infected might wel preserue the state of the Church in truth of maners and doctrine that ye need not to feare an vtter destruction 〈◊〉 it and so through wretched foly depart out of it If he spake generally of al then wil I coÌ„fesse that ye are not so much to be blamed for your departing from that Church nor for anie your applieyng of S. Bernardes Authorie to that purpose But because I am sure this is false therefore I charge you and blame you How proue I this I proue it by those very bookes in which as you saie the foresaid wordes against the Pope and Bishopes are For concerning Eugenius him selfe he saieth in the third boke after much complaint or reproufe made of the euil maners of the Court of Rome Haec ad te Berna de CoÌ„s lib â–ª 3 noÌ„ de te scribo I writ this vnto thee not of thee And immediatly he declareth by example how Eugenius refused bagges of monie which came out of Germany and condemned a greate riche bisshop by likelyhode notwithstaÌ„ding his mony And how he gaue of his own vnto an other poore bisshop to geue vnto the officers in the Court least the bisshop should seeme niggish and vncourteous if he should haue nothing rewarded them Now Doth it greaue thee to heare this And I ê™ S. Bernard doe tell it so muche the more gladly by how much thou hearest it the more greauously The Pope theâ— him selfe was none of those deceauers begilers or pilates whom you mention Furth then were al the Cardinalles and Bishops deceiuers c. No neither al they as you may reade it proued in the fourth boke of that worke by the exaÌ„ples of two great Legats The one was Cardinal Martine Cardinal Martin which being sent legate into Dacia a countrie ful of gold and siluer returned yet so poore that for lacke of mony and horses he coulde scarse reach vnto Florence The Bishope of which place gaue him an horse without mention making of any mater to be done for it Yet the legat aÌ„d Cardinal Martin was 〈◊〉 soner at Rome but the bishop of Florence
came also thither And seeking the fauâ—â— of his frinds in a certain cause of his owâ— at length he coÌ„meth to Cardinal Martin Yea sayth he Decepisti me Nesciebâ—tibi imminere negotiuÌ„ tolle equuÌ„ tuuÌ„â— ecce in stabulo est you haue deceued me I knew not ye had any sute in haÌ„d Take your horse to you loe yonder he is in the stable This is one and he I truste no deceauer or Pilate An other Cardinal Gauâ—rid is Gaudfridus Bishope of Cartres which many yeres together was at his own charges Embassadour and legat froÌ„ the Pope in the costs of Gascoigne Of whoÌ„ he telleth that ther was a sturgeoÌ„ brought vnto him by a certain priest but I wil not take him sayd the Cardinall except I pay for him Againe a Ladie of the towne where he lodged brought vnto him for deuotioÌ„ and good wil three treen disshes with a towel he behâ—ld theÌ„ he praised theÌ„ but in any case he would not take them And at both these tymes S. Bernard was present And saieth herevpoÌ„ vnto Eugenius O that we might haue store of such meÌ„ geueÌ„ vnto vs as thes were whoÌ„ I brefly haue spokeÌ„ of If therefore the Pope him selfe was good and some Cardinalles and Bishopes were holie men how can you withoâ— impudencie drawe S. Bernard to such 〈◊〉 sense as thoughe he should condemâ—â— the whole See and Church of Romeâ— And if as I saied before you thinke him not to speake generally what helpeth it your cause in departing from the Church to proue that some Prelates be Pilats Secondly I might wel and truely say that S. Bernard speaketh against the maners of the Court of Rome and not against the faith of the Church of Rome And though he should name the Pope for his euill behauiour which he doth not a Pilate yet concerning his Authoritie and office he geueth vnto him all the titles of excellencie that are found in the Scriptures from Abel to Christ. Affirming besides him to be the shepheard not only of shâ—pe but of all other Shepheardes also â–ª and Others to haue bene called to take parte of the cure but hym to haue fulnes of power with other such wordes more of like sense Thirdly I aunswere he neuer spake so vnreuerentlie of the Pope in all hys workes And that the testimony which you alleage is not in the bookes ad Eugenium The old Father Epiphanius saieth Apolog. it is an horrible wickednes Epiph. and a sinne not to be suffred Haere 61. for any man to set vp any picture of Christ him selfe See how these felowes caÌ„ amplifie and â—et furth a lie Confut. â—35 Epiphanius they thinke â—aketh for theÌ„ and therfore they dresse â—im in their own colours Ye find not in hiÌ„â—either these greauous and mightie terâ—es horrible wickednes and Synne â—ot to be suffred Neither these precise â—onclusions that any man shal not set â—p anie picture Neither this aggrauaâ—ing additioÌ„ of Christ him self He speaâ—eth quietly and he speaketh not geneâ—ally but against a certaine kind of Imaâ—es or honor done to them as appeareth by the words istiusmodi vela such kinâ— of veiles And he prescribeth nothinâ— against the Image of our Sauiour Christâ— If ye wil not leaue this place but proâ—â— that it maketh against Images Pluckâ—â— out first these lies and repaire the testimonie making it neither better neither worse then Epiphanius doth permit you and then shal you be otherwise answered The old fathers Origen Chriysosâ—â— exhort yâ— people to reade the scriptures Apolog. to bye them bookes to reason at home betwixt theÌ„selues of diuine maters wiâ—es with their husbaÌ„ds parents with their childreÌ„ These men condeÌ„ne yâ— scriptures as deade â—lemeÌ„ts And as much as eueâ— they may barre the people from them Ye ioyne these two Fathers togeather as though they both confirmed your lyes Confut. 236. But Origene neither speaketh of byeing bookes Ho. 9. in Leuit ca. â—16 nsither of reasoning at home 〈◊〉 the scriptures but of comiÌ„g to church aÌ„â— heariÌ„g the scriptures and of thinking afterwardes at home vpon the keping of them in mynde and folâ—wing them Then as concerning S. Chrysostome he speaketh agaynst suche as neglected the reading of Scriptures and thought this to he a sufficient excuse for them that they were no Monkes Ho. 2. in Matth. as who shuld saâ—e we haue wife children and household with other things besides to thinke vpon and therefore it is not our vocation to looke in the lawe of God and by that to amende our liues He speaketh likewise against other which loued to haue faier and trym books of the Gospel for ostentation sake not to reade them and profit by them Of which sort ther may be found at this preseÌ„t som in the world which liuing loosly and regarding their soules health slenderly cary yet the testameÌ„t or some parte thereof bouÌ„d vp in goldeÌ„ forel and hang it about their necks like a Iewel But as for the biyng of Scriptures he spaketh it by occasioÌ„ oÌ„ly in reprouiÌ„g such as had books in their cupbords aÌ„d no vnderstaÌ„ding or sense of them in their mind For after he had saied Hom. 3â— in loan This hauing of bookes coÌ„meth of the Iewish ambition and craking vnto whom the coÌ„maundementes were geuen in letters and vnto vs not so but in the tables of our hart which are of fleash least he shuld sem to derogate somwhat hereby vnto the written Scriptures he addeth yet I do not forbid it to gette books yea rather I pray you most ernestly get them but so that we maie repere often in our minde both the letters and sence the of them He was not therefore so careful of it that euery man shoulde bye the scripture but this he studied for that euery man should be diligeÌ„t in bearing away of the scriptures readen â–ª or preached in the open church Proue ye now that S. Chrysostome exhorted all and singular of his people to bye them bookes especially in the vulgar tounge And iudge ye whether he had so little discretion to moâ—e al therevnto which verie few could bring to passe the raritie and pryce of the written bookes being considered Nowe as concerning the other lie that wiues at home with theyr husbandes or children with theyr parentes should reason betwixt themselues of diuine maters either I vnderstand not your englishe or els ye abuse S. Chrysostom most shamefully For if ye meane that al that reasoniÌ„g which you imagin signifieth no more but that the father shuld instruct his sonne aÌ„d the wife geue eare to her husbandes good counsel then surely you must pardoÌ„ me I neuer vnderstood this much before that reasoning of diuine maters should haue so litle question in it But if reasoning betwixt parties doth importe an argueing to aÌ„d fro with obiections solutions replies resolutions diuises suppositioÌ„s c. And if reasoning of diuine maters doth signifie the questioÌ„ proponed not to be of so smal
when they haue the greatest victorie thā to iustice wher had the Dukes of Saxony and other your defendours bene From the beginning against the wills of so many Kinges Euery Anabaptist in Brabāt or Scotlād liueth against the Prīces wil because he generally wisheth euery heretike out of the way for feare of infecting the good Chistiās yet ther is another wil in Prīces which if they would folow no heretike could haue peeped vp in all Christēdom but he shuld haue ben quikly dispatched In spite of the Popes That is true in one sense because in deed very spite hath moued diuers mē to refuse his authority but in an other it is false For if he for exāple had stomaked the matter he had held them for excōmunicate which should haue the name of Kīg Hēry in their bokes like as on the cōtrary side it was high treason to haue the name of Papa in any writing or Calēder And almost maugre the head of al men hath taken encrease Here again commeth in almost No if men had resisted it in deede it had neuer ben receiued But partly through couetise of Church goods partly through werines of straight liuing partly through hatred of superiour powers and partly through curiosity to heare what newes came out of Germanie the merchandise of heretikes had an open vent And by litle litle spread ouer into al countries and is come at the length euē to princes Courtes and palaces Neuer say at length For euen from the begining therof it was in the Courts of Princes as of King Henrie the viij Duke of Saxony c. And by plaine force of law the greater part of our owne country is kepte yet stil in it The holy Fathers did alway fight against the heretikes with no other force Apolog. then with the holy Scriptures It is false Confut. 27. as it appeareth by the first Nicene Coūcel declaring the cōsubstantiality of God the Sōne with his Father The second Councell at Constantinople resorting to the writinges of theyr for fathers for profe of the Godhead of the holie Ghost The Councel at Ephesus defining our blessed Ladie to be Deiparam the Mother of God and not only Christiparam the mother of Christ And the Councel at Calchedon where the fathers cried out aloud against Eutyches denieing the two natures in Christe and asking in what Scriptures laie the two natures Ea quae sunt Patrum teneantur Those things which the Fathers haue thought let them be kepte If there had bene any whiche would be but a looker on and abstaine from the holy Cōmunion Apolog. him did the old fathers and Bishops of Rome in the Primatiue Church before priuate Masse came vp excommunicate as a wicked person and as a Pagane How proue ye this Con. 92. Marie out of a decree of Calixtus or as ye should say Anacletus Yet he speketh not of al the people but of the clergy onli ▪ which he apointeth to attend vpon the Bishop at the aultar which are to saie seuen fiue or three Deacons likewise Subdeacons and other ministers Neither are they excommunicated if they doe not receiue but willed to be kept without the Church dores a far lesse punishment so far furthe at the least that it proueth you a lyer Our aduersaries at this day haue violently thrust out and quite forbydden the holy Communion Apolog. They haue so forbidden it Conf. 9◠that seeing th◠slewth of the common people they haue made an expresse law that whosoeuer doth not communicate at Easter shal not be taken for a Christian. And bysides if it be to far for you to goe to Rome it selfe whereas the examples of the primitiue Churche continue in theyr best practise you maie aske of the Churches of Flāders and Brabāt and if there be not more receiuing at euerie principal feast in the yere thā is church for church in the whole yeare with you then let me be reproued And this ofte receauing of Catholike people can not stand wyth a violent thrustyng out and a forbidding the holy communion as you belie the Clergie Now if by the holy communion ye meane not the receiuing of the Sacrament as Catholykes vse but receiuinge vnder bothe kindes neither in that sence speake you truely For no violence was vsed whiles one kind only was ministred no commaundement driuing the Christians at the first vnto it but their owne willes and deuotions allowing it neither by anie later Canon of the Churche are both kindes so quite forbidden but that vpon good aduise and charitable consideration both may be graunted The Bishoppes of Rome doe carie the Sacramentall bread aboute Apolog. vppon an amblyng horse whither so euer them selues iourney What if he would ryde twelue miles or seuen miles out of Rome Confut. 111. doth he carie the Sacrament with him vppon an horse No forsothe Ergo not whether so euer he iourneieth Againe howe doth he carie it In lyke sorte as noble men carie theyr necessaries with them vpon Sūpter horses or packe vp in casketes trūkes or males anie of theyr singular and pretiouse iewelles Surelie the simple and plaine Reader maie thinke vpon the credite of your woordes that the Pope when he rydeth out of towne carieth the Sacrament inclosed vp with him and set vppon some horse as though it were perteyninge to his household prouision Yet the truthe is farre otherwyse for in solemne and greate processions onelie the Sacrament is cariede about But I truste a Procession is none of the Popes iourneys neither muste his holines be sayed to ryde out of towne whē he goeth about the Cytie in his Bishoppelie Ornamentes for praiers sake onelie and deuotion Now when such high feasts do come the mōstrāce or pix for the Sacramēt being verie greate and massy is sette in deede vpon an horse not as a cariage of the Popes but as conteining a Sacrament of the Christians Which that it might be the better in syght and with more ease caried about therefore hath it pleased the deuotion or inuention of no euil mē to prepare a fayre horse to carie vppon his backe the pix in which that bodie is kepte vnder the forme of bread whiche disdayned not to ride vpon an Asse Matt. 21 ▪ whē it came into Hieruselem in visible forme of fleash They say Apolog. and sometyme do perswade fooles that they are able by theyr Masses to distribute and apply to mens commoditie all the merites of Christe his death yea although many tymes the partyes thinke nothing of the mater and vnderstand ful litle what is done Name them that doe saie so Confut. 115. and you shal be discharged of a lie and they punished for their words For the Catholiks alow not these phrases we are able to distribute by our Masses c. As who should say the Priest were no more a sinfull mā nor an hygh minister at the most vnder God but were in dede a certaine God and