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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A13707	The trying out of the truth begunn and prosequuted in certayn letters and passages between Iohn Aynsworth and Henry Aynsworth; the one pleading for, the other against the present religion of the Church of Rome. The chief things to be handled, are. 1. Of Gods word and Scriptures, whither they be a sufficient rule of our faith. 2. Of the Scriptures expounded by the Church; and of unwritten traditions. 3. Of the Church of Rome, whither it be the true Catholike Church, and her sentence to be received, as the certayn truth.	Ainsworth, John, fl. 1609-1613.; Ainsworth, Henry, 1571-1622? aut	1615 (1615)	STC 240; ESTC S100498	226,493	192

replie unto Act. 26 22. that in tradition nothing is spoken besides that is contrarie to the Apostles speeches First this is untrue many of your church traditiōs are both besides cōntrary to the scriptures as when we examine the particulars wil appear and yow dare not subject your church and traditions to the trial by the scriptures but yow wil haue mens fayth extrinsecally to depend upō your church Secondly you wind away by terms of your owne besides that is contrary vvhereas the Apostle sayth nothing without or except that vvhich the Prophets and Moses sayd none other thing Your allegation from 2. 2. Thes. 2. is answered in my former vvritings You further allege for traditions Act. 15. 41. 16. 4. I answer all Apostolicall decrees such as are ther mentioned we doo receiv but yours decreed by the Pope are Apostaticall Secondly you may see that those which they delivered vvere vvritten before Act. 15. 23 -25 28. c. You say they are uncertayn let the prudent judge And if so they be then are they not necessary for salvation for all such are vvritten Ioh. 20. 30. 31. 2. Tim. 3. 15. 17. Here you interlace 2. other points comp●●ing the grounds that vve and that you doe goe vpon and you handle them largely in 55. sections I vvill first follow on vvith your 6. part at S. 153. both because that vvas the course of our former vvritings and the examining of the things alleged for your Pope vvil give light touching these other points which also I vvill consider of after in his place The second of your assertions vvhich now you make the 6. part of your longsome pamphlet vvas That the Popes definitive sentence as he is head of the church is an indeficient rule in matters of faith To this now as a man fearful of your cause you have added the Popes definitive sentence at least with a generall council And this you say you are to show and vve say I are ready to behold your showes Here I find no argument by you set down to conclude your assertion as vvas in the former points vvhich is an other declaration of the weaknes of your cause Heretofore to help the Pope you fled to S. Peters prerogatives vvhich vvere they as great as you feign them to be yet as I told you there is no more proved for the Bishop of Rome then for the Bishop of Babylon or Patriarch of Constantinople Yet having no better grounds you agayn flee to them and labour to repayr your showes of Peters preeminence vvhich I by the scriptures had pulled down And first you say that out of the whole series of them and the circumstances and not onely out of each particular you draw an infallible argument I answer the particulars I have proved to be by you wrested so the vvhole series and rank of them can conclude not hing soundly for you Your 1 show vvas S. Peters naming first I told you this is usual but not alwayes and to help you because you complayn● cited not the 〈…〉 see Ioh. 1. 45. vvhere Andrew is named before him Gal. 2. 9. vvhere Iames is named before him Mar 16. ● vvhere mention is made o● the disciples and Peter so 1 Cor. 9. 5. the Apostles brethren of the Lord and Cephas Though if he had been alvvayes first named it proves him not to be the head of the church more then the first foundation Rev. 21. 19. vvill prove Paul as I shewed you Here you boast that Exod. 28. 18. 19. confutes me vvhere the Iasper you think is the sirt stone and so not the 12. for Benjamin I answer an yll translation hath deceived you For Moses there sheweth that the stone Iaspeh whereof the Greek Iaspis Arabik Iasp Latine Iaspis and English Iasper are naturally derived vvas the ●2 and last in the brestplate and so for Benjamin vvho vvas the last born of the patriarchs to be graved vpon Exod. 28. 9. 10. 21. This your own learned Linguists as Arias Montanus and others doo acknowledge and so correct your translation So the best of the Iewish Rabbines as Maimony vvho sayth Benjamin was written on the Iaspeh Misn. lib. 8. Treat of the vessels of the Sanctuary chapt 9 S. ● And thus Paul of Benjamin hath colour to be the head of the church as vvell as Peter You press Mat 10. 2. the first Simon caled Peter Andrew as you think vvas first in yeres first in caling for proof you cite Ambrose on 2. Cor. 12. I answer first Ambroses humane ●uthority is no proof for Peters pretended divine headship Secondly Ambrose saith not that he vvas first in yeres put that therfore amōg your own traditiōs but Chrysostō if you vvil rely upō men maketh Peter elder then Andrew That which Ambrose sayth is Andrew folowed our Sav before Peter this I hold true by Ioh. 1. 40. 41. but it is one thing to folow Christ as a disciple an other thing to be chosen an Apostle as reason teacheth and you may read Mar. 3. 13. 14. 16. compared with Mar. 1. 16. Luk. 6. 12. 13. 14. vvith Luk. 5. 8. 10. That Andrew therefore vvas an Apostle before Peter I deny by vvarrant of scripture thus I wink not as you vvrite but vvith Calvin I confess Peter to be first of the Apostles You grant by that I alleged from 2. King 2. Dan. 3. that such miracles as Peters walking on the water prove no headship of the church so then this also you brought but for a show 3 I corrected your error in translating him for it in Mat. 16. 18. restreyning that to Peter vvhich Christ promised to his vvhole church You stand to it stil. But first against humane learning for autes the feminine gender cannot accord with Petros the malculine as it can and dooth vvith Ecclesias the Church You plead also against true religion for I proved by Io● ●0 27. 28. 29. that all true Christians are invincible of h●l g●●●s and not Peter onely Here you burst out and cry that if I vnderstād it in the Calvinisticall sense that one once justified can not be again the child of wrath it is you say a most horrible falshood and against the holy scriptures Rom. 11. 20. 21. Rev. 2. 5 I answer I understand plainly as Christ sayth that his sheep shall never p●rish neyther shall any pluck them out of his hand but he vvill give them e●er ●al life Ioh. 10. 28. that it is not possible the elect should be seduced 〈…〉 Christ Mat. 24 24. for God putteth his fear in their harts that they shall not depart from him Ier. 32. 40 and Gods gifts and caling are without repentance Rom. 11. 29. and they that are born of God cannot syn vnto death 1 Ioh. 3. 9. And these things accord vvell with Rom. 11. 20. 21. c. for by faith we stand but all men have not faith 2 Thes. 3. 2. there is a vayne fayth

dependeth of the knowledge of a skilfull lapidary and yet the knowledge of the lapidary dependeth of the excellent nature and quallity of the stone So we answer that the Church doth formally depend on the word of God that showes she is taught in all truth and yet the word of God doth depend of the determination ● definition of the church And therfore S. Augustin said that he would not beleeve the scripture to be scripture without the authority of the church And at this answer in effect you wonder that any one would have the faith of God to be tried by any other then by the written word of God therfore eyther give me leave to be of S. Augustins mind or leave to mervaile onely at me since that great Doctor and holy father doth give the lilie occasion to you of wonder Now unto your Corolarium that bad rhetorick and not solid reason gathered out from hence that my faith and hope is grounded on the Spiders vveb I answer that it is not seated on a webb but on a rock against which all heretical persecutions perswasions blasphemies which is as hell gates shal never prevaile For my resolution account of faith that I told you I was one day to give before the tribunal of God was no other thē this which S. Augustin gives where he sayes In ecclesia catholica etc. In the catholick church doth keep me the consent and agreement of so many people and nations the authoritie of the same church began by miracles nourished with hope increased with charitie confirm●d and established by antiquitie In the same catholick church doth also hold m● the succession of Bishops frō the sea of the Apostle S. Peter to whom Christ our Lord after his resurrection commended the fe●ding of his flock continued vnto him who at this present occupieth this place And lastly doth keep me the very name catholik which not without cause amongst so many hereticks this onely church doth so obteyn as although all her●ticks doe pretend vamly to be termed Catholicks yet if any stranger doe chaunce to demand which is the church of the catholicks there is no heretick so impudent as dareth showe eyther his house or synagogue And thus far S. Augustin himself taught me what answer of my faith I shall make before the eternall tribunall of God But when you shall come there to give account of your faith the best that you can allege for your self is that you thought judged it so that your private spirit interpreted it so though against the hight of nature in very many points against al antiquitie of time consent and vnitie of doctrine against the whole streame of holy fathers learned Doctors and most true expesiters Who now I pray you putts trust in man and makes flesh his arm Who are taught novv by the precepts of men Who but you are led by their ovvn inventiōs spirits and illusions Who but you commits idolatrie in worshipping the golden calfe the idol of your own invention Therfore I wil cōclude with your saying took out of the Psalm 73 26. The roc● o● my hart who is my portion for ever preserve me and deliver you fr●m that s●ylla of Calvnustical profession and from that devo●●ing charibdis those syrtes and quicksands of Brownisme and Pu●itanical brotherhood where men make shipwrack of their faith and soules The secōd arg you examin of mine to prove that the b●●e ● naked word cannot be an infallible rule or square of faith you pr●pound it out of my writings thus That which is difficult includeth many senses at least to the ignorant can not bee a certaine rule of faith But the scriptures are thus My antecedent you admit proved by Tertullian S. Hierome and S. Peter himselfe whose place you onely examin the others you turne over as you are woont deeming thē vnworthy of your consideration You examine that of S. Peter now where he sayes that in S. Pauls epistles are certaine things hard to be vnderstood which the vnlearned and the unstable deprave as also the rest of the scriptures to their owne perdition Here you except against me that I say many things in sted of certaine where in deed I cited onely the sense of that place propoūding it as the Protestāts vse for yours and their advantage meaning so tacitè to prevent an objection For they answer here that S. Paules epistles are not hard but that many things in thē are hard For the Greek copies have en hois that is in which things and some read en hais in which epistles And wheras you object that I say all the rest of the scripture in stead of also the rest of scripture I answer the holy Ghost may very well speak generally since the very plainest places of scripture have bene wrested to bolster up heresies Thirdly you say that this testimony proves scarse the first part of my antecedent that scriptures are onely difficult but you say it doth not prove that scriptures cannot be an indeficient rule of faith I answer that it proves both For in what doth S. Peter say that S. Paul is hard but concerning many points of our faith and religion as concerning predestination reprobation vocation of the gentiles justification by faith Of which high mysteries S. Paul is the cheif and principall Maister And as for the example of the artizē you bring makes much against you For if an unst●●lfull Mathematician or sea man knoweth not the right vse of the Astrolabe or crosse staffe the missing of a hayres breadth in the right using thereof makes him judge wrong of the object infinitely almost although the instrument in it self be most true And if the Physitian misse the right Dose though he gives the right ingredients he is liklier to kill then to minister help So if a man misse of the right judgement sense of those places of scripture touching predestination reprobation c. the corruption of that place is able to turne all the other places of scripture that leaues that way into his owne nature But now here to your reply that not all but onely some places of scripture are difficult and hard though we see the contrary by experience since Luther Zuinglius Calvin Berengar have stumbled at the plainest places of scripture viz. This is my body yea they stumbled there at though S. John explicates also most plainely that place when he sayes Caro mea verè est cibus et sanguis mens verè est potus My flesh is truely meat and my blood is truely drinck For Luther will have them one way to be understood ●uinglius another Ber●garius an other and Calv● another Neyther can the paralleling comparing of one place of scripture with another r●n dy this or satisfy the infinite difficults that arise out of holy scripture As that of the 2. Regum 23. 11. The feild is sayd to be full of lentills But the 1 Parall 11. 13.

But the Lordship which your Pope claimeth is to be a true ecelesiastical prince in the whol church of his own auctority without cōsent of the people or counsel of the preists to make lawes which bind the conscience c. with other like exorbitant power which hath neyther proof nor colour of proof from this 15. of the Acts but the contrary is playn by the scripture as in my former writing I shewed and leav it to the judgment of the prudent Your 3. arguments force you would reinforce by a long speech of privat spirits interpretation of errors and heresies unfit translations manifold and ambiguous senses c. where I must acknowledge you have put to more strength but you have not whet the edge as I sayd unto you so that your purpose is not effected For al that you say may with as good if not better right be retorted upon your selves and the Pope himself who hath as private and erroneous a spirit as al other Byshops hath given as absurd and erroneous translations wrested the scriptures broched as deadly errors is as unable to prove his mission frō Christ as any prelat● or preist in Christendom So in al your discourse you have neyther proof from scripture nor argument upon ground of reason therfore I need not spend labour in vayn and the points some of them are before handled othersome belong not to the matter in hand With like successe you repete your 4. argument that the scriptures have been wronged by our men to bolster up heresies c. you say I grant your assumption but deceiv not your self or others I did leav to strive about it because it was personal touching Luther Calvin c. who when they lived were able yenough to mainteyn their cause against Rome gates though as men they had their infirmities I told you the like charge mought be returned upon your Popes and Prelats Your proposition I deneyed and shewed reasons of my denyal from the scriptures You replie as your manner is with your popular carnal reason that al sorts of hereticks alledge scriptures boast of the spirit unlesse there be a supreme judge strifes can have no end You have been answered that so it must be and so it was in the Apostles times who yet referred not Christians to the Pope as supreme judge but laboured to compose controversies and correct errors by the scriptures Strife wil continue without end til the world have an end then al warr shal cease in the mean while the church is militant under her head Christ. and no other He alone walketh amids the 7. golden candlesticks al churches have their several Bishops and Pastors and onely Christ is Archpastour at his appearing shal supreme judgement be In the mean time they be Antichrists that usurp his office and place But why alledge you this against the divine scriptures onely for doe you not think that men have wrested the late Fathers also to bolster up heresies yea and councils too yea and the Popes own decrees Now if whatsoever be wrested to bol●●er up heresies can not be a true rule of faith then the world wil soon be without rule and so that Anomos that unruly and lawlesse fellow foretold of wil be fittest to be their captayn even as he hath been now too long a day sitting in that citie which in S Ioh is time reigned over the kings of the earth and fayn would mainteyn that regiment stil. Your 5. and last argument was for vnwritten traditions You affirmed that many mysteries of our faith are beleeved that are not explicitly declared nor infallibly deduced from the scriptures I deneyed that any mysterie of our faith was without due sufficient proof from the scripture Now you recken up divers matters as before and ask of me proof for them otherweise then by tradition My answer was and is that some are your own invētiōs I wil not undertake to approve but to reprove them by Gods word others that are truths I can prove by Gods word better then you can by mouth tradition But you find great fault think it goes hard with me since I prove not one particular of them all therfore desire me to answer distinctly to ech point as it l●es c. I marvel you would expect proofs of these points now Would you hav me enter into battel with Arrians Antitrinitarians Anabaptists other like hereticks and sh●w how I can convince them by scripture I list not so to digresse When th●se matters in hand are ended if you wil take up their buklers I wil fight against you by the scriptures onely if you wil adventure the credit of your unwritte traditiōs in the battel In the mean time make you proof as order requireth of your argument and seek not to turn it away by setting on foot new questions The scriptures that you brought to prove unvvritten traditions I answered In this your reply you say that I dispute as if you made traditions the total rule of faith whereas you would inferr onely that it was a partial togither with the word of God Then belike you grāt some word of God without unvvrittē traditiō vvhere is that but in the scriptures If vve have Gods vvord in the scriptures vvithout unvvritten tradition hovv is it that vvhilear you reasoned vve could not knovv scriptures to be Gods vvord but by such tradition Doe not you make mouth traditiō the total ground of your faith For take avvay this tradition the scriptures you think are lost then Gods vvord is lost unlesse unvvritten tradition give it us So dead tradition is the ground of grounds that must tel us vvhat is scripture vvhat is the meaning of scripture vvhat is true beside scripture and so in effect is all in all Though yet to make it a partiall rule of faith as you speak is too much man may not think to part stakes vvith God his vvord is yenough if vve can be content You say I object that those traditions spoken of in Deuteronomis might make for the Iewish Cabalists which are reiected by S. Peter c Nay I knovv they make neyther for them nor you but as I sayd rather for them then for you I proved unto you out of the Psalmes that the Fathers taught their children vvritten traditions I proved by other divine testimonies that yenough is vvritten in the scriptures for faith all good vvorks As for Gods acts in al ages fathers are to tell them to their children such tradition I allovv We tel our posteritie novv by tradition the great vvork of God in confounding the Spanish armado that came against England in the yere 1588 If I in my dayes should see Rome ● become Rumee as Sibylla prophesied and the Pope like Nabuchodno●or turnd out to gra●●e or like Pharao drovvned in the sea I vvould hold it my dutie to tel

at his mouth If he wrest the law and teach false doctrine men should let him alone as a blind guide least they fal with him into the ditch But herein you misse proportion in making many common weales and but one church wheras there be also many churches For though there be but one catholik or vniversall church which is invisible comprehending the whole familie in heaven and in earth yet are there many particular churches visible as in Galatia in Asia and other partes of the world Now you imagine one visible catholik or vniversal church having visible officers and a visible head the Pope invested as praesident Vrbiet Orbi all the world over and all particular churches with their Bishops to be under the guidance of that visible head This is neyther according to God who appointed no such order nor according to man for is ther any one Monarch over all the world unto whom all nations vvith their governours doo obey Your conclusion is vvorst of all For by Peters successor you mean the Bishop of Rome onely Wheras Peter being an Apostle had no successor in his Apostleship as he vvas Bishop or Pastor all Bishops in all churches are his successors and not onely the Bishop of Rome 1 Pet. 5. 1. 2. Act. 20. 28. Againe you vveen that your Pope is necessarily indued with the holy ghost vvheras the starr of the Roman church as vvel as of any other church may fall from heaven and may have the key of the bottomlesse pitt And vvhy Rome should have preeminence above all other cities in the vvorld I cannot tell unlesse because ● by her policie our Lord Christ was crucified For which above all other cities she deserves the visible curse And if God in justice hath wasted Ierusalem for this syn how can we think that he hath blessed Rome which hath spilt the blood of Christ and of may other his Saincts The book of the Apocalyps shewes plainly the contrary Apoc. 17. 18. Agayn you would lay an intollerable burden upon the churches for every synner is to be judged and excommunicated if he repent not by that particular church wherof he is a member as is Christs playn rule Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. compared with 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. 12. 13. but you applying Christs rule to Rome onely would constreyn al men al over the world when they deal with their brethren for syn and folow them to excommunicatio they not repenting to come to Rome before the Pope which is unpossible Oth●rweise by what rule from Christ cite you men thither Wherfore you conclude that which your premisses no way do prove beg the question to gayn the time But you are angrie that I Ieav your supplie of later Doctors wheras I told you playnly at the first that I would trie and be tried in religion by the holy scriptures onely as being the undoubted rule of truth If you would not thus have dealt why began you the battel I have far greater cause to except against them then you can have against my records of the Prophets Apostles for your fathers are but children in respect of thē nothing so ancient nothing so authentik in any comparison nothing so playn nothing so constant but contrary one to an other contrary some times unto the truth contrary to themselves Example by Augustine plainly averring with me you bring him retracting or leaving indifferent How then should we trust him that trusteth not himself So I told you Doctors mought be alleged against Doctors you marvel at it Nay marvell at them at your self that allege them You quote Chrysostom homil 55 in Mat. and there though these be not the words you mean he savth vpon this rock wil I build my Church that is faith and confession whither this make more for you or for me let indifferent men judge You cite Origen homil 5. in Exodū wheras if you would read him on Matthew you may find how he counteth al Christians Peters which the Pope wil not allow You produce Ambrose serm 47. wheras the same man upon Ephes. 2. sayth vpon this rock wil I build my church that is in this confession of the catholik faith I appoint the faithfull unto life Thus if I would weary my self and my reader in your wilde●nes I could send you up and down from one father to an other from the same father in one place to himself in another as for Hillarie whom you quote I may cite ●yssenus in testimon ex vet Test. de Trinitate and from Cyril l. 2. c. 1● comment in Ioan. as you alledge him I can direct you to the same Cyril de Trinitat l. 4. And when now shal we get out of this wood But wander you there alone if you wil I mean not so to toyl in vayn Yet cōdemn I not the men but reverence their labours how ●eit I reverence Gods word more As for me I would not have you or any rest upon my words but upon the proofs which I bring from the book of God which though it be litle yet they that eat it may prophesie among people and nations and tongues and to many kings And me thinks you need not be offended that I refuse to fight with dead men and doo deal vvith you by the scriptures onely for you have as you may think the advantage vvho besides my weapon that single two edged sword of Gods vvord which you may use also as you can have likevveise to help you the arrovves of the Fathers the halberds of the Councils the bullets of your schole men the canons of your Canonists vvith the panoplie of your Popes frō vvhom all Bishops as a Byshop sayth doe grovv as members grow from the head and of whose fulnes they doe all receiv that if my cause be not very good you must needs drive me out of the feild Vse therefore if you please the reasons of all or any of these and I vvil ansvver them to you not to the dead but if you muster their bare names onely be sure you shal neyther fray nor hurt me Next you retire to the place of Iohn 21. feed my sheep I told you al the Apostles had that charge Mat. 28. 19. 20 Iohn 20. 21. The contrary you say is manifest since he sayd onely to him feed my flock to whō he said before lovest thou me more then they in which words he excludeth al the other Think you in good sooth that the former charge layd upō all vvas taken from them novv layd vpon Peter onely because upon special occasion he vvas spoken to alone Why then Peter also vvas himself discharged vvhen after this Christ spake to Paul alone sending him to the gentils to open their eyes c. to preach the gospel But it is a strange collection of you that vvhen a company of men are sent vvith one commission and one of them