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A00791	An answer to a pamphlet, intituled: The Fisher catched in his owne net In vvhich, by the vvay, is shevved, that the Protestant Church was not so visible, in al ages, as the true Church ought to be: and consequently, is not the true Church. Of which, men may learne infallible faith, necessarie to saluation. By A.C.	A. C.; Champney, Anthony, 1569?-1643?, attributed name.; Sweet, John, 1570-1632, attributed name.; Floyd, John, 1572-1649, attributed name.; Fisher, John, 1569-1641, attributed name.	1623 (1623)	STC 10910.4; ESTC S107710	44,806	106

true bookes of Scripture and Fathers which be true translations and which be right interpretations for both about Scriptures Fathers such Questions may arise and cannot be well decided whout the Iudgement of the true present visible Church in regard Scriptures and Fathers do not alwaies sufficiently expresse what is to be held in the aforesaid Questions neither will one priuate man in such cases follow anothers opinion when ech man will be easily inclined to thinke that he hath as good Scriptures or Fathers or Reasons or all these togeather to plead for the truth of his opinion as another hath for his This reason may be confirmed out of Tertullian who in his golden booke of Prescriptions giueth diuers reasons why Heretikes who reiect the authority of the Church should not be admitted to dispute out of Scriptures First for that by their disputations they weary those that be fame they ouercome those which be weake and those which be in a middle disposition they dism●sse with scruple or doubt Another reason Tertullian giueth because this Heresy doth not receaue some Scriptures or if a receaue it peruerteth them to their owne purpose with additions and detractions and if it receaue some yet not whole or if whole in some sort yet by false expositions it turneth them from the right to a peruerse sense And a peruerse or corrupt sense sayth he is as contrary to truth as is a peruerted or corrupted Text. Tertullian therefore for these reasons iudged best not to make the combat in Scriptures but that this gappe should be stopt and that Heretikes should not be admitted to any disputation of Scriptures and he telleth how this may be done saying It must be examined to whome the possession of Scripture doth belong to the intent that he who hath no right vnto them may not be admitted vnto them And further he sheweth That the right order of thinges requireth that first it only be disputed to whom the Fayth belongeth As if he should say which is the true visible Church VVhose are the Scriptures From whome by whome when and to whome was deliuered that discipliae by which they are made Christians for where there shall appeare the truth of Christian sayth and discipline to be as doubtles it is in the true visible Church of Christ there shal be truth of Scriptures and expositions and al Christian Traditions And hauing shewed how Christ did promulgate his doctrine by the Apostles he further prescribeth That what Christ and his Apostles did preach must be learned no otherwise then by the Churches which they founded so as euery doctrine agreeing with those Apostolicall Mother-Churches that is to be deemed true and what doth not agree to be iudged false And therefore to make it apparent that the Heretikes opinions although pretended by themselues to be cc̄formable to Scriptures and such as may be proued out of Scriptures are not Apostolicall nor true he vrgeth them as M. Fisher vrged D. Featly to shew the beginning of their Churches and to vnfould the order of their Bishops so from the beginning running downe by succession as that their first Bishop had some of the Apostles or some Apostolicall man who perseuered with the Apostles for his Author and Predecessour and hauing giuen examples of the Catholike Churches who can thus vnfould the order of their Pastours and namely Rome for one he sayth afterwardes Confingant tale quid Haeretici Let Heretiques euen feigne some such like thing Thus we see what Tertullian did say to Heretikes of his tyme by which we may learne what we may say to the Nouellists of our tyme whome offering to dispute with vs about Scriptures we may altogeather debarre from Scripture and may examine them as Tertullian did those of his tyme saying VVho are you VVhen and whence came you VVhat haue you to do in my ground you that are not myne By what right dost thou O Marcion we may say O Martin Luther cut down my woods By what licence dost thou O Valentine O Caluin diuert or turne aside my fountaynes By what power dost thou O Apelles O Anabaptist remoue my limits VVhy do you O the rest of Heretikes sow and feed according to your owne will vpon my Land and pasture It is my possession I am the ancient possessour I haue the firme Originalls from the Authors themselues to whome the propriety did first belong I am the heyre of the Apostles as they did ordaine in their Testament and last will as they did commit it to my faythfull Trust as they did adiure me so I hold it But you they haue disinherited and cast out as strangers and enemyes c. So as by this prescription of Tertullian vntill D. Featly or some other can by other markes then by alleadging wordes of Scripture as by perpetuall visibility and interrupted succession of Bishops c. proue Protestants not to be Heretikes but the true Church of Christ and the right heyre of the Apostles to whome cōsequently belongeth the most ancient first possession of Scriptures M. Fisher had good reason and right to deferre disputing with him out of Scripture of Christ and his Apostles vntill he had made his full Induction of Names of Protestant Church-men and vnfoulded the orders of their Prostant Bishops so running downe from the beginning by succession as that their first Protestant Bishop had some of the Apostles or some Apostolicall man who perseuered with the Apostles for his Author Predecessour The which I accompt to be so impossible for him to doe as I dare and do challenge him saying with Tertullian Confingant tale quid Haeretici Let D. Featly or any of his fellow Protestants at least feigne because I am sure they cannot find Names of Protestant Bishops and Pastors whome they do imagine for proue they cannot out of good Authors to haue beene in all ages Which whiles they do not al sorts of people haue iust cause to thinke that neither D. Featly nor D. VVhite can performe that taske which they did tooto boldly vndertake of naming prouing and defending visible Ptotestants in al ages therupon al men may as I do conclude That the Protestant Church hath not beene so visible in all ages as the Cathelike Church ought to be and consequently the Protestant Church is not the true Catholique Church which we prosesse to beleeue in our Creed Neither consequently are their I'astours and Doctours and Preachers lawfully sent or sufficiently authorized to teach and expound Gods word nor consequently are people securely warranted to learne of them what is and what is not to be belieued by infallible diuine fa●th necessary to saluation nor indeed ought they to beleeue or heare them at all but ought to vnite themselues to that One Holy Catholike Apostolike perpetually visible Roman Church hearing beleeuing obeying the Pastors thereof whereby they may haue infallible iustruction in all matters of fayth secure direction for all matters concerning good life in such sort as they may attaine remission of their sinnes and saluation of their soules the grace of God in this life and endles heauenly happines in the next Vnto which I beseech sweet Iesus to bring vs all Amen FINIS Eudaimon Iohannes in defens p. H. Garn. D. Bishop against Rob. Abbots A very weake and Insufficient satisfaction as is showed hereafter Eph. 4. Heb. 11. Rom. 10. v. 14 15. Eph. 4. 11. Ose. 2. v. 19 20. Isa. 59. 20. Matth. 18. 20. Eph. 4. v. 11. 〈…〉 M. Fisher. D. Field in his Epistle Dedicatone Aug. lib. de vnitate Ecclesiae a This great Lady did expresly say that the conferēce did make against Protestants euen as it was related by you Protestant relator And another Lady who was present at the conferēce did protest to one that asked her how it moued her that she was by it confirmed in Catholique religion Lib. 1. Inst. c. 1. Sect. 4. Eph. 4. v. 11. c. Rom. 10. v. 14. c. 1 Luth. ep ad Argentin anno 1525. 2 Conradus Schushelb in Theol. Calu. lib. 2. fol. 130. B. versus finé 3 Geo. Mylli in Augustanae Confessionis explie art 7. de Eccl. pag. 137. 4 Benedict Morgést trac de Eccl pag. 145. 5 Calu. in I. epist. ep 141. 6 Bucer ep ad Epis. Hereford 7 Beza in Theol. ep epi. 5. 8 Iewell in his Apolog. of the Church 4 c. diuis 2. in his defence 42. 9 Perkins in exposit of the Creed † See the booke intituled The Author and substance of Protestant religiō Isa. 59. v. 21. Isa. 61 9 Isa. 60 11 Matth. 5 14 Matth. 18 17 Matth. 28 19 20 Coccius in thesauro Cōtrouersiarum tomo 1. lib. 8. art 1. Aug. in psal 47. lib. de vnit Eccles. cap. 16. 25. Isa. 59. v. 21. 60. v. 11. 61. v. 9. 1. Tim. 3. v. 15. Ephes. 4. v. 4. 11. 12. 13. 14. Tertul. lib. de praescript Luc. 10. v. 16. Matth. 18. v. 17 Tertull. de praescrip c. 15. Cap. 19. Cap. 20. 21. 22 sequent Cap. 32.

AN ANSWER TO A PAMPHLET INTITVLED THE FISHER CATCHED IN HIS OWNE NET IN VVHICH BY THE VVAY IS SHEVVED That the Protestant Church was not so visible in al Ages as the true Church ought to be and consequently is not the true Church Of which men may learne infallible Faith necessarie to Saluation By A. C. MATTH 28. vers 19 20. Going teach al Nations baptizing them c. Behold I am with you AL DAYES euen to the consummation of the World EPHES. 4. vers 11 14. Christ gaue some Apostles and some Prophets othersome Euangelists and othersome PASTORS and DOCTORS c. that we be not Children WAVERING and CARRIED ABOVT with euerie winde of Doctrine c. M. D. C. XXIII THE PREFACE GEntle Reader although I doubt not but al that be wise and iudicious especially if they duly consider the occasion and state of the question lately treated in a Conference betwixt D. White and D. Featly Ministers and M. Fisher and M. Sweet Iesuits wil easily discerne euen by that false Relation which is set out in print by a Protestant that the Protestants Cause hath not gained any thing Neuerthelesse because those who be partially affected or of meane capacitte may as it is to be doubted diuers doe conceiue and speake amisse of this matter to the disgrace of the Catholike Cause and the preiudice of their owne and other mens soules I haue thought it needful to set out a true Relation of the occasion progresse and issue of that Conference and this in such sort as diuers falsehoods of the Protestant Relator may be easily perceiued and the weakenesse of the Protestants Cause may be euidently discouered which is also so bad as it seemeth it cannot be supported but by setting out such lying Relations the sight and consideration whereof maketh me more easily beleeue that to be true which I haue read viz. That a decree was made by Diuines in Geneua defyning it lawful to lye for the honor or credit of the Gospel and that conformably to this decree an English Minister being told that one of his Powfellowes had made lyes in stead of proofes of his Protestant Religion did answer saying He cannot lye too much in this cause It must needes be a weake and bad cause that needeth to be supported by such weake and bad shifts I for my part wil not promise to haue perfectly remembred and set downe euery word that passed in this Conference especially spoken by by-standers nor to haue strictly obserued the precise order of euerie passage but for the substance and truth of the matter that I doe relate I assure that there shal not be found any falsehood vnlesse it be in some of those Parcels which I doe not relate of my selfe but out of the Protestant Relator whose Relation ordinarily as I doe not contradict vnlesse it be vpon necessarie occasion so I doe not intend to approue but simply relating what it saith I wil leaue it to others to iudge what they thinke fit of it Onely this I wil say That euerie one may beleeue it so farre as it relateth any thing which may aduantage the Catholique Defendants and their Cause or disaduantage the Protestant Disputants and their Cause For it is certaine that no man wil lye for the aduantage of his Aduersarie or his Cause nor for his owne disaduantage But in such things as it hath set downe aduantagiously for the Protestant Disputant or his Cause there is iust reason to suspect it in regard I am told that D. Featly himselfe who is said to be the Author hath confessed That more is said in the Relation then was said in the Conference it selfe and I am sure something is left out which was said and something mis-reported This being premised by way of Preface I wil begin to discourse of the matter it selfe CHAP. I. About the first occasion of the Conference in which is shewed that Master Fisher did not seeke it or prouoke his Aduersaries by any challenge vnto it nor did intend to haue it so publike as by his Aduersaries fault it proued The Protestant Relator of this Conference setteth downe the occasion in these words EDWARD BVGGS Esquire about the age of 70. yeeres being lately sicke was solicited by some Papists then about him to forsake the Protestant Faith telling him There was no hope of saluation without the Church there was no Catholike Church but theirs and to beleeue the Catholike Church was the Article of his Creede and by it could no other Church be meant but the Church of Rome because it could not be proued by al the Protestants in the Kingdome that they had any Church before Luther This Gentleman being much troubled in his mind with these and the like suggestions who al his life time had beene and prosessed himselfe a Religious Protestant became now more sicke in mind then body After his recouerie being much troubled in mind with these former suggestions of the Popish Priests he repayred to Sir Humfrey Lynd Knight who by reason of his alliance and long acquaintance with him gaue the best satisfaction that he could to his said Cousin Master Buggs who seemed to take content in such his Conference and to be wel satisfyed by him in al points But the Popish Priests and Iesuits not desisting to creepe in further where they had once made a breach perseuering stil in questioning him where his Church was before Luther Whereupon hee repayred againe to Sir Humfrey Lynd and required some further satisfaction of him concerning that demand And thereupon Sir Humfrey Lynd told him it was first in Christ and the Apostles consequently also conspicuous in the Primitiue Church for 600. yeeres after Christ after which time some errors crept into the Church as diseases into a mans body so that the Church which Luther we acknowledge was in general the same Christian Church as his body was the same substantial body being now wel and lately sicke though different in the qualities c. How farre this parcel of the Relation is true or false I wil not stand to discusse as not yet knowing how or by whom the aforesaid Gentleman came first to doubt of his Church and consequently of his Religion yet I haue some cause to doubt that it is not altogether true especially in that he saith The Popish Priests and Iesuits not desisting to creepe in further where they had ●●ce made a breach perseuering stil in questioning him where his Church was before Luther For I doe not thinke that many if any at al Priests or Iesuits did first put this doubt into the old Gentleman his head nor perseuered in questioning him about it And for Master Fisher in particular I know certainly that hee neuer saw this old Gentleman much lesse did he speake to him in any matter of Religion til that time when Sir Humfrey Lynd first met Master Fisher. The which meeting is mentioned in the Protestant Relation saying thus And after his

answered nor consequently he satisfied Moreouer the same Gentleman being present whē the Earle of Warwick told M. Fisher that D. Featly should at another tyme come againe to giue Names of Protestants in other Ages he might easily and doubtles did vnderstand that as yet Names in all Ages were not giuen nor consequently the Question satisfied in which he expected answere Furthermore presently after he went away from the Conference he told M. Fisher himselfe that he was glad that at the next meeting his Question should be answered which shewed that as yet he did not conceiue it to be answered Lastly diuers dayes after all the trouble and styrre was past which was made about the Conference the old Gentleman was not so resolute a Protestant as the Relator pretendeth for meeting M. Fisher and M. Sweete he desired them to giue him a Catalogue of Names of Professors of the Romā Church saying that if after this the Doctors should not giue him a Catalogue of Protestants he should dislike their cause Which Catalogue M. Fisher and M. Sweete haue ready for him but will not deliuer till he get the Doctours to make theirs ready that he may bring to them the Doctours Catalogue with one hand and receiue theirs with the other to deliuer to the Doctours All that can be suspected is that in the very tyme of the sayd styrre when the old Gentleman eyther was or feared to be called in question it may perhaps be that he might say those words which the Relator mētioneth but this if it were was only vpon frailty or humane feare of trouble and not any firme and settled resolution grounded vpon the Conference sith both before and after he shewed a contrary mynd as hath byn sayd As for other idle and false reports of a great Lady or any other Catholiks sayd to haue ben turned Protestants vpon this Conference I neglect them as being notoriously false It may be that some Weaklings who not being present at the Conference nor hauing commodity to heare what passed but from the lying lyps of some Protestants Who reported that Fisher was ouercome and had yielded Christ and his Apostles to be Protestants some Weaklings I say might perhaps be staggered vntill they heard the true report that this was only an impudent slaunder vttered by D. Featly but in words and deeds contradicted by M. Fisher. But I make no question so soone as these shall see or heare what is heere related they will be well satisfied and confirmed in the Catholike truth and that euen Protestants themselues will be moued to harken more after the matter And in case their Doctours doe not giue them a better Catalogue of Names of Protestants in all Ages then they did in this Conference they will doubt as they haue cause that the Protestant Church hath not byn so visible in all Ages as euen by D. Featly his argument is proued the true Catholike Church ought to be and consequently that it is not the true Catholike Church which in their Creede they professe to belieue and out of which as euen Caluin confesseth they cannot hope for remission of their sinnes nor saluation of their soules CHAP. IIII. Contayning a Reuiew and Reflection vpon the Premisses NOw hauing made an end of this Relation I am to intreate the Gentle Reader to reuiew it or reflect vpon it and to call to mind and marke 1. The occasion and consequently the end of the disputation 2. The Question and true meaning of it 3. What Methode was most fit to haue been obserued in treating of this question 4. What course was taken by the Protestant Disputant what by the Catholike Respondent All which being duely considered thou wilt better see what is to be iudged of the whole Conference and wilt make to thy selfe more benefit of the matter treated in it then perhaps hitherto thou hast done §. 1. About the Occasion and end of the Conference 1. The occasion of this Dispute was as thou hast heard in the Relation that a certaine old Protestant Gentleman was told as the truth is that there is no saluation out of the true Catholike Church and that to belieue the Catholike Church is one of the Articles of the Creed which euery Christian is bound to belieue and know and that this Church was no other besides the most auncient and vniuersally spread ouer the world the knowne Catholike Roman Church which hath had and can yet shew visible Pastours other Professors in all Ages and that the Protestant Church wherof for the present he was a member sprung vp of late and could not be the true Church of Christ as not hauing had as Christs true Church ought to haue Pastours and Doctours and lawfully sent Preachers so visible as the Names of them may be shewed in all Ages out of good Authors And this was the occasion of the dispute for heerupon the old Gentleman was so much moued in conscience to doubt of the Protestants Religion that he could not be quiet till he had made meanes to get this matter discussed in a Conference betwixt Catholike and Protestant Deuines in such sort as in the Relation hath byn told And therfore the end of this Conference was to giue this old Gentleman and others that should heare it satisfaction in this most important necessary point I call this point most important and necessary in regard the certainty of euery other point belieued by infallible diuine Fayth necessary to saluation dependeth vpon it For although euery point belieued by diuine Faith be in it selfe most true and by reason of the Diuine reuelation made knowne to the world by Christ his Apostles most certaine and infallible yet this truth infallible certainty therof is not made knowne to vs according to the ordinary course of Gods prouidence but only by the meanes which God hath appointed to wit by Pastors Doctors and Preachers of the true visible Church of Christ. §. 2. About the Question and meaning of it The Question propounded to be treated in the Conference vpon the occasion and for the end aforesayd was Whether the Protestant Church was visible in all Ages especially in the Ages before Luther and whether the Names of such visible Protestants may be shewed in all Ages out of good Authors The reason why this question was proposed rather then any other was for that the old Gentleman was already perswaded that there must be in all Ages a visible Church of Christ hauing in it visible Pastors Doctors and lawfully sent Preachers who are by Almighty God appointed and authorized to teach and of whom all sorts of people are commaunded warranted to learne infallible Fayth necessary to saluatiō And further that this Church and these her Pastors Preachers haue byn in all Ages past not only visible but so visible as the Names at least of some Pastours teaching and some people learning the true Fayth in all Ages might be produced

to insert heere as followeth Right Honourable Lord. I esteeme it a speciall prouidēce of God that your Lordship was present at a late Conference wherin D. White and D. Featly vndertooke to shew against me my companion that the Protestant Church had been visible in all Ages and that their Professors might be named especially in all Ages before Luther Your Lordship may remember the substāce of all the proofe to haue consisted in this That the true Church was alwayes so visible as the Professors therof in all Ages might be named But the Protestants was the true Church we refused to dispute of the Minor because it transferred the question and auoyded that plaine proofe of the visible Church which was then propounded and expected If as they conclude they are able to name their Professors in all Ages why did they refuse to giue vs a Catalogue of theirs as we were ready to haue giuen them another of ours Why went they about to proue they were able to name them when with lesse adoe they might haue named them Where deeds are iustly expected words without deeds are worthily suspected Certainly heerby they are so farr from hauing discharged themselues of the great enterprise they vndertooke as they stand more engaged then before to the performance of it for hauing now professed and acknowledged that the true Church or to vse their owne words the Church which is so visible as the true Catholike Church ought to be and the Church whose fayth is eternall and vnehanged must be is able to name her Professors in all Ages eyther for their owne honour and for the satisfaction of the world they must set downe the Names of their Professors in all Ages or els they shamefully discouer themselues not to be that true and visible vnchanged Church which is able to name them Againe at the length yealding as they did to shew the continuall visibility of their Church by a full induction of their visible Protestants in all Ages which they seemed to vndertake with great confidence why did they sticke in the first Age alone refusing to name their Professors in the Ages following vntill the first were tryed May not the Answerer choose to deny which parte of the Argument he pleaseth And was it euer heard that he should be inforced to reply to one proposition alone before the whole Argument whether it were Syllogisme or Induction were fully propounded Very Nobly therfore prudently your Lordship in the end desired another meeting not doubting that your owne party within 3. or 4. dayes would be content to giue vs the Names of their Professors in all Ages as we were ready to giue them the Names of ours that therby both sides might be the better prepared for a second Tryall which whē they haue performed we shall not fayle to encounter with them eyther by way of speach or wryting as your Lordship all things considered shall thinke fairest or safest or most conuenient for the discouery of Truth But if your Lordship shall not be able to obtaine at their hands this your most iust and important Request the defect of proof on their part must needs be accounted a plaine flight and no man hereafter can prudently relye his saluation vpon that Church which for want of perpetuall visibility proued they themselues shall haue concluded to be false and faygned Thus expecting the yssue heerof and your Lordships further pleasure from the mouth of this bearer I remaine this first of Iuly 1623. Your Lordships seruant in Christ Iohn Fisher. By this Letter it may appeare how willing M. Fisher and M. Sweete were and yet are of their part to haue the matter soundly prosecuted eyther by meeting or wryting And I haue heard that the Earle to whome this letter was written did send to D. Featly so as although there be a prohibition of meeting yet it is expected that by way of writing D. Featly goe forward to performe his vndertaken Taske and setting downe first the Names of such as he iudgeth to haue been Protestant Professors in euery Age since Christ And then prouing out of good Authors those whome he nameth to haue byn members of the Protestant Church not condemning any one point wherin Protestants at this day do differ from the auncient and Roman Church and especially in any one of the 39. Articles which English Protestant Ministers are sworne vnto and therfore so long as D. Featly and D. White shall be silent and not so much as by writing giue a Catalogue of Names of the Professors of their Church all sorts of people may iustly take this their fayling for a flight and for a silent graunting that they haue not had visible Protestants in all Ages whose Names may be shewed out of good Authors as the question required Wherupon followeth that the Protestant Church is not the true Church of Christ nor the Preachers theroflawfully sent to teach nor people securely warranted to heare and learne of them what is and what is not to be belieued by Fayth necessary to saluation CHAP. III. Of the yssue of the Conference THe Protestant Relator sayth that the issue of the Conference was that the aforesaid M. Bugges came to Syr Humfrey Lynd gaue him many thākes for the sayd meeting and assured him he was well resolued now of his Religion that he saw plainly that it was but the Iesuits bragging without proofes and wheras formerly by their Sophisticall perswasions he was in some doubt of the Church he is now so fully satisfied of the truth of our Religion that he doth vtterly disclaime the Popish Priests cōpany and their doctrine also I haue cause to doubt that this which the Relator sayth is not true for therby he maketh the old Gentleman to be but of a weake capacity or of a very mutable nature For first I am sure there was no cause giuen in the Conference of any such effectuall resolution to be made by the old Gentleman Secondly I cannot see when this speach should be made by the Gentlemā to Syr Humfrey If immediatly after the Conference it would argue toto much want of capacity for if he did but rightly conceiue the true state of the question in which himselfe had especially desired to be satisfied as I verily hope he did he might easily haue marked the insufficiency of D. Featly his diuerting proofes which also were so answered as the Audience for want of satisfaction in them vrged him to leaue off to produce Nàmes of Protestāts in all Ages the which producing of Names being so often and earnestly required to be done in all Ages and yet being only pretended and that most falsely to be done for one Age and the Cōference being so abruptly left of by D. Featly before he would go forward to name men in other Ages especially in Ages before Luther as the Question required any meane capacity might see that the Question in which the old Gentleman desired to be satisfied was not fully